After Central Park recasting, Loren Bouchard discusses Bob's Burgers' representation issues
Aux Features TV
Back in January, Bob’s Burgers creator Loren Bouchard responded to a question during a Television Critics Association panel about the voice cast of his then-upcoming Apple TV+ show Central Park by saying that one of the perks of animation is that you can have whatever voice come out of whatever face. He was saying that this was one of the “fun” aspects of making a cartoon, since—for Central Park—it gave him a chance to have Stanley Tucci playing an old woman. He admitted that it’s important to “balance” these things out, but he also noted that a biracial character named Molly “needed” to be played by Kristen Bell. Since then, the idea of representation in animation has become a bigger topic, with non-Black actors stepping down from portraying Black characters and Umbrella Academy’s Emmy Raver-Lampman replacing Bell as Molly on Central Park.
This weekend, during a Comic-Con At Home panel (via The Hollywood Reporter), Bouchard noted that Bob’s Burgers also has some work to do in terms of representation. He says the conversation about representation in animation has been “very healthy” and that “every part of it is good, even the awkward ones” and he knows it’s all worth it because it’s about getting “better at being in the world.” Apparently, Kristen Schaal (who plays Louise) challenged him in the past to hire more women, and Bouchard says that five of the 11 current Bob’s Burgers writers are women and 31 percent of the staff at Bento Box Entertainment (the animation studio that produces the show) are women. He admits that the latter number is “not enough,” but he says they’ve been working to increase that number every year.
As for men voicing female characters on the show, Schaal offered a suggestion to try and balance things out and appeal to Bouchard’s “it’s fun to make any voice come out of any face” sensibility: “Create more male characters voice by women and see how that goes,” adding that maybe Bouchard could “create some things that haven’t happened before.” Women voicing men is a longstanding tradition in animation, though it’s usually reserved for kids like Bart Simpson or Tommy Pickles, and Schaal presumably doesn’t necessarily mean just that.
In other Bob’s Burgers news, executive producer Nora Smith revealed that the show is doing a pandemic episode next season, but not on purpose. It was written and produced “long before” the coronavirus became something we can never get away from and is about a pinworm outbreak. Smith was concerned that people would think the show was joking about the real virus, but apparently the characters do “take it seriously” and the episode should be fun anyway because “it’s about anus stuff.” There’s also “a lot of hand washing,” which is nice. Not enough TV characters wash their hands.
275 Comments
i so love this show. hope they can get more females involved.
Just females in general, or?
Or.
Wasn’t sure if he had anyone specific in mind.
“Feeeemale hoooomons”[Slobbers]
Yes, but for the love of all that’s holy, please, please, PLEASE absolutely never recast Linda or Tina!!!!!That being said, I do think the show already has a ton of fantastic female voice-talents already (just not in the main cast, besides Schaal obviously).
Female what? Pigs? Chickens? Cats? Marmosets?
Because the name for female humans is “women”. Get it right.
Seriously, person didn’t say “women”, dude means well don’t be an asshole. C’mon ffs.
…..but it’s so grossssssssssss!
Introducing a male kid character voiced by a woman totally easy. I mean it’s a quirky as hell show they can do whatever so easily.
so naturally they’ll hire Nancy Cartwright
That’s how I saved my car dealership, and my marriage.
Are you an unfunny douchebag in real life, too?
No better lay a finger on her Butterfinger.
Or her thetans.
Can she type?
..possibly the Pesto twins could be recast to …wait! they already are played by women(Sarah and Laura Silverman).
Oh that’s good. So everyone commenting feel free not to inform me again. To say it makes up for everything well… That’s always hard to determine.
Yes, those two elementary-aged men.
“I’ll never forget you, Andy.”“I’ll be with you every time you look in the mirror.”“What?” “‘Cause we look alike. Never mind.”“Oh! No, I get it now!”
They already have male kid characters voiced by a woman.
It’s inaccurate to say women have voiced men; as you note immediately after, they usually voice boys. Sure, have them voice adult male characters. I love Bob’s Burgers, truly, but the amount of female characters being voiced by men (Linda, Tina, Marshmallow, etc) has always bothered me a bit, and the Silverman sisters voicing the Pesto twins doesn’t really make up for that.
Yeah Marshmallow particularly should be voiced by a cis or trans woman. I don’t think women voicing boys is that bad bc men’s voices drop so much when they go through puberty- it gets weird sometimes on Big Mouth with the deeper voiced men voicing tweens.
I don’t have a problem with women voicing prepubescent boys, I’m just saying it doesn’t make up for other missing representation.
Oh yeah I’d agree- women voicing women also shouldn’t get diversity points- cartoons aren’t a medium where female characters are underrepresented and they’re mostly voiced by women, though I think part of that is that cartoonists love drawing sexy women and don’t want their sexy women to sound masculine
Lois Griffin has such a sexy voice
No!Do! not! recast!
Loren Bouchard agrees about Marshmallow. Sure hope it’s a black trans actress too.
https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/07/black-trans-woman-character-bobs-burger-character-played-white-man-will-change/
good. all we need now is A MARSHMALLOW EPISODE
“It’s inaccurate to say women have voiced men; as you note immediately after, they usually voice boys.”
So, if women *have* voiced men, how is it inaccurate? Just because it isn’t *usual* doesn’t mean it’s not accurate.
I actually don’t know if there are any men voiced by women, I just wrote it that way in case there was a character or two I wasn’t aware of. Certainly it’s highly unusual if there are.
Adventure Time’s Manfried, voice by Maria Bamford is the only one that immediately comes to mind.
Goku!
God bless you
As an all-around win, we should start having Maria Bamford voice as many characters as possible in general
Yes Yes YES
In Japan, Goku is still voiced by the actress who voiced him way back in the original Dragon Ball series. I believe the Rugrats sequel trilogy where they were teenagers retained all the original voice actors for their characters, the lone exception was Christine Cavanaugh who had retired and was replaced by Nancy Cartwright. On that note, I believe all of the women who voice male children on The Simpsons voice their grown-up counterparts in the future episodes. And, this probably doesn’t really count, but in the original Sailor Moon dubs from the 90’s, Zoisite was voiced by a woman to hide the whole gay couple thing.
I believe the Pull Out King may have been a woman
Vincent Adultman was voiced by Alison Brie. You’ll never convince me he’s not just a lumpy man who works at the business factory.
In the US, can’t think of one at the top of my head. In anime, a f*ck ton of characters.
That seems to be the consensus, though I was largely interested in/speaking about mainstream US animation.
There’s vanishingly few. So few that they tend to be funny story cases and not just a regular industry thing. Women voicing adult male characters are basically Bamford doing Manfried on Adventure Time and Masako Nozawa doing Goku in Japan.
*women*
I love Bob’s Burgers, truly, but the amount of female characters being voiced by men (Linda, Tina, Marshmallow, etc) has always bothered me a bit, and the Silverman sisters voicing the Pesto twins doesn’t really make up for that.I’ll give you Marshmallow, but Linda is based on John Roberts’s impression of his own mother, videos of which Bouchard had seen before asking Roberts to audition; without Roberts and that impression, there is no Linda Belcher as we know her (Robert is, by his own description, “flamboyantly gay,” and that is translated right into his performance of his mother/Linda’s own flamboyance).Similarly, Tina was originally Daniel, named after Dan Mintz. The production teams changed the character to Tina after having already hired Mintz (probably because of a lot of what Tina does and says would be creepy rather than endearing coming from a pubescent boy rather than a pubescent girl). They kept Mintz because they thought his voice worked well for Tina (I would agree).
These stories are true and everything, but they’re also ubiquitous, which dulls their impact somewhat. Every time we see one these stories it’s always either “We wrote the whole character around this actor!” or “No one would bank the thing if we didn’t have the white person!” Eventually, they start to run together and fail to impress.
In particular, noting that characters are written around actors is just an indictment that these show creators can’t think of anything for non-white or female actors to do. Or at least they don’t seem to want to.
Yes, let’s take these two specific examples that involve relevant, compelling details and lump them in with everything else regardless of whether or not they fit the template of some predetermined damning critique.
There’s always a relevant compelling detail. That was my point. Wny did Kristen Bell have to voice that Central Park character? Bouchard had a damn good reason apparently. None of these concerns arise only to be met with the showrunner saying just “Meh, wasn’t thinking about it, who gives a shit.” It’s always a story. You just happen to care about this one.
You’re right, I do care about this one, hence my providing the relevant. compelling details. Ignoring those details or trying to wave them away by lumping them in with some bullshit generalization (“there’s always a relevant compelling detail”) might work for you, it doesn’t work for me. To me casting Kristen Bell to play a person of color from the outset is a lot different than casting John Roberts to do his impression of his mother in playing Linda or Dan Mintz keeping his job after his character was changed from male to female. To you apparently it’s not, but to my mind you have to explain why, specifically, not just dismiss the specifics with “There’s always a story behind casting.”
I’m not dismissing the specifics. I’m pointing out that there always are specifics. Look at Big Mouth. You think if pressed Nick Kroll wouldn’t say “Oh I knew a weird, status obsessed little girl with absent parents growing up and therefore it’s essential that I do the voice for Lola”? Hell I don’t know if he would or wouldn’t, but I just wrote it down so it’s super easy shit to come up with, isn’t it.Do I think that Linda and Tina need to be recast or removed or something? No. What’s done is done, and heck, I love that show. But I do think the choice to write and cast the the way they have has both issues and consequences which are worthy of discussion and addressing, much like I think casting Alison Brie as Diane was probably a mistake worthy of discussion. I’m far more concerned with learning from these things than retroactively punishing people that already made a choice.
You keep adding things to the conversation that I neither said nor intended. At no point did I say that people want to recast those roles, or that there shouldn’t be a larger conversation about diversity in voice casting, or that there are not examples of roles that went to voice actors in a problematic way. I have said—and I continue to say—that neither Linda nor Tina fit the larger template of said problematic casting, and you still have not explained why they do. Instead you keep trying to hijack my comment and my responses in order to return to your own one-size-fits-all condemnation. There are exceptions to the charges that you are making. If you can’t see that, then there’s little that I can do for you.
Oh, okay. Simple answer. Denied potential casting roles to qualified women. All set. That’s the thing. You can have a great explanation and a damn good reason, but they still did the thing. The fundamental nature of doing the thing doesn’t care about a good reason.
Also quit accusing me of condemning things, huh? I don’t even know what that would look like. I don’t want the show cancelled, the roles recast, or… I dunno, maybe for the show to be less popular? I honestly don’t even know what room there is for condemnation at that point. Saying they made a mistake and we can learn from that mistake isn’t a condemnation.
You can have a great explanation and a damn good reason, but they still did the thing. The fundamental nature of doing the thing doesn’t care about a good reason.You’re saying ignore any good reasoning if it does not lead to your preconceived ideal for what the world should look like. That kind of procrustean, all-or-nothing, dichotomous thinking is exactly what reactionary fuckwits point to when they spew their empty bullshit about the “intolerant left,” and it alienates potential allies who get shouted down when they offer good reasons for why things are not always so simple. So if your goal is to effect real change—whether it’s something relatively inconsequential or something on a more grand scale—then insisting that “good reasons” do not matter isn’t really the way to go. Exceptions exist, not everything fits into neat little boxes, and we weaken what we exaggerate.
You can make me sound like some reactionary right-wing box filler all you want. Our positions are not actually all that much at cross purposes. I am saying that this casting issue is systemic in the animation industry. I don’t think you’d disagree with that, right? Examples and exceptions aside, this is a systemic issue. Both racial and genderblind casting, because they are both fundamentally tied to systemic racism and sexism.All I’m saying is that when discussing a systemic issue, one of the ways to feed into the continuing nature of that issue is to make it first and foremost about exceptions and faves.
I didn’t call you a reactionary. I said that claiming that absolute positions must be maintained in the face of compelling exceptions gives reactionaries ammunition. I offered two such exceptions, you have maintained over and over that they do should not count. I didn’t say that there are always exceptions, therefore the overall need for change is invalidated. I said that these two particular cases do not fit the overall template for problematic cases. It’s not either/or, in my opinion.
Actually, it would have to be a half black/half white person, following your reasoning. Casting someone black would be taking away from the mixed race minority. There is not just white, and colored.
I was following SystemMastery’s in describing the character as person of color. I do not watch the show and do not give a shit.
Clearly!
Protip: if you think “colored” is an ok term to use in 2020, you probably aren’t qualified to be in any serious discussion about race.
well thats the black/white (jeeze every term is loaded) divide being pushed here. it a person is mixed race, why does it have to be played by someone on the nonwhite side of the mix?
Actually, that’s just you using a racist slur because you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Leave this conversation now and actually do some reading on the subject.
Yeah, I know. I get why they were cast the way they were; it’s a small thing but there it is.
What’s a small thing? Neither really fits the larger white-actors-cast-to-play-people-of-color or men-cast-to-play-women templates. Roberts was cast to play his own mother, essentially, and Mintz was cast to play a male role that later became a female role. The specific details matter. If you like either of those characters (the AV Club *loves* to fly their Tina-loving flag), then you have to reckon that neither of them would be what they are, really, without those actors playing them, and there should be no guilt felt, really, in enjoying their performances given the specific details of their casting.
My being bothered by it is a small thing.But man, why do folks (broadly speaking) get so defensive whenever you criticize anything? I can love and enjoy a thing and want better for it! The show could still be great with different casting; if it had been cast differently we’d never know what we were missing!
Are you and SystemMastery the same person? Or did you both just finish the same freshman philosophy class? Yes, “thing that we love might be even better if it were a completely different thing.” “Linda might still be a great character if she were not based on the real life person that she is based on and instead was a completely different character.” Brilliant.
Hi, I’m pushing 40 and don’t know SystemMastery from a hole in the ground, but heaven forbid two people have similar ideas? A hypothetical change on a television show does not affect you, unless you’re John Roberts or his mother? Do you really think there is no other possible interpretation of Linda who could ever work? Sheesh, how short-sighted.
Do you really think there is no other possible interpretation of Linda who could ever work? Sheesh, how short-sighted.Didn’t say that, don’t think it. I’m saying that this iteration of Linda and this iteration of Tina are perfect, as is, and the casting of Roberts and Mintz doesn’t negate that, because those casting decisions do not fit the overall template of problematic casting that has been rightly pointed out of late. That is, unless you want to assume what I would consider to be an extreme position that all female roles must be played by women, regardless of context. You want to continue to feel uneasy because post hoc two casting decision do not fit that extreme prescription, by all means feel free. Context matters, in my opinion, so posing some hypothetical therefore is unnecessary.
probably because of a lot of what Tina does and says would be creepy rather than endearing coming from a pubescent boy rather than a pubescent girli do not find her endearing at all. shes going to grow up into a rapey version of gale.
Part of ‘Bob’s Burgets’ humor is Tina and Linda’s voice and I feel they should further this by adding male characters voiced by female actors.What I don’t approve of is recasting existing inoffensive characters that have been a staple for the last 5, 10, 15 years.
Apu is not inoffensive.
What in the name of Krashnu’s Name are you talking about?
Don’t take it from me, there was literally an entire documentary about this.
The whole thing is going to be tricky, though. If you get a great female voice actor to play a male character, and if that character is in anyway flamboyant or feminine, there’s going to be a huge backlash (“oh, so you got a woman to play the gay guy?”), regardless of how or why that actress was cast in the role. (I say this as the gayest man to ever live.)
In an industry that has seen closeted gay men in leading roles from the onset and today venerates them even in if a performative “Yassssss qweeeen!” way, that is less begging the question than teaching it how to save Jimmy from the well up yonder.Talent does not lack for gay male representation, and in any case the question being had mostly isn’t about how people act or prefer — it’s still about skin and gender. I think that’s more the crux of this debate, like, since we’ve had so much queer and non-white representation in media outside of major studios since fucking forever and the critics love that shit and say everyone should watch it, why it’s still such a chore, apparently, to get that representation onto screens in front of a lot of people.
Maybe it’s more of a western function of not having women voice men? But Goku in Dragon Ball Z is totally a chick – Masako Nozawa….granted, it was to reflect Goku’s arrested development as an adult, but still – grown drawn man voiced by little old lady.
A few people have mentioned that, and one other, but that kinda proves my point that it’s pretty rare.
Y’know, when some activist eventually decides only straight actors can play straight characters all of Hollywood will implode
Only US Americans can play US superheros?
Giving you the benefit of the doubt here…That would not be something reasonable people would complain about, because these complaints are about people who are underrepresented in the world at large not being represented enough in entertainment. Straight people are not disadvantaged, and so nobody who is reasonable would complain that they need to have extra representation in Hollywood. (Even if it is possible that straight people are a smaller proportion of the acting population than they are the general population.)
“Giving you the benefit of the doubt here…”Don’t bother.
Give me the benefit of doubt there.On this specific front, doesn’t Hollywood (and cinema in general, if I refer to France) have a history of “gay” actors playing “straight” roles ? I’m thinking Rock Hudson, Cary Grant, or Jean Marais, etc…That’s a very specific front, yes. There’s the very related issue of under-representation of homosexuals as characters and heroes. But generally speaking, I think there’s often a confusion between the question of acting as a character you’re not (it’s the actor’s job) and the question of blocking out certain minorities from job opportunities. I’d be more at ease with a push for more “minorities” acting as “majorities” than for a partition of roles. And when it comes to homosexuality, I was under the impression that the swaps were commonplace, symetrically. Was it a false ever impression, or is it correct, or did it use to be correct and isn’t anymore ?To caricature my stance, I’d say that I’d wish for more “white faces” rather than less “black faces”. I don’t mean it as some symetrical racism to balance minstrels (though it’d be a bit hilarious), but more symetry in the perception of “oh this is neutral therefore can play anything” (as opposed to nowadays’s “black is black”, “female is female”, “white male is nothing in particular”). Maybe this partition that I dislike is just a step to reach that, but it could lose its point easily. Because people often forget the ends to keep the means as their own end. Anyway. My point here was just the impression that homosexuals playing heterosexuals had never been very rare or problematic in cinema. Unlike other traits (too many cis people playing trans character and not enough trans people playing cis characters, etc). Am I mistaken ?
You’re an extremely unintelligent person.
This. It’s about mitigating general biases in casting, it’s a numbers game.
Bob’s Burgers is weak, and should have been canceled after Season One.
Your mom should have been cancelled before she had you.
maybe she was! Despite the wishes of haters being cancelled removes neither life nor uterus, dude-erus.
Nah. His mom should have canceled him. Ha, ha.
In Soviet Union, she would have.
Note that I am critiquing a program, and not personally attacking you. That makes me classy. Please learn some manners. You wouldn’t say what you recently typed to someone in person, and you know it.
No, I wouldn’t, but since you take on a trollish borderline-gimmick-character posting persona like 80% of the time, I don’t feel like I’m really attacting anyone when addressing shitty posts like that at your username.
“Attacking.” Kinja edit-time-limit out for fixing the typo.
Yes, nothing says classy like calling yourself classy.
Actually, the classy comment would have been, “I don’t like Bob’s Burgers and don’t watch it, but I hope the people that enjoy it continue to do so.”Not “It should have been cancelled for not catering to my personal taste.”
Right. Or he could have…said nothing. There’s shows on here that i dont watch/don’t like, and I say…nothing. #letpeoplehavethings
Settle down Jeeves, it doesn’t make you that classy
I’d say that irl to your face because I don’t know you and you’ve given me no particular reason to give a crap about you as a person thus far in the million years you’ve been posting here as a 100% troll.
Especially since you damn well know that wasn’t a critique but a random, baseless opinion. You may have added some reasons later on, but even those are all just based on personal opinions and not actually evaluating the show using critical thinking and examples to prove your arguments.
You’re literally the worst.
I cancelled his mom just last night.
“I don’t enjoy this, so it should’ve been cancelled.”I never understood this thought process. What impact does the show still being around have on you? Sorry you don’t have good tastes.
Thanks for asking, I find the program irritating. It is bland, and poorly written. I am a fan of good comedy, as subjective as it might be.
Doesn’t answer the question why people like you hope for things to be canceled they don’t have to watch.
He mentioned he didn’t like it a bunch of times in the past. I sigh and just let it go with him.
I love Bob’s Burgers, but I can’t deny I get these feelings about other shows sometimes (a CW show or two that will remain unnamed). I don’t know if I can explain the thought process beyond “If it’s cancelled I don’t have to hear about it anymore when I’m trying to enjoy other things.”
also, why is MWFuller here commenting about it? Probably should be talking on the Family Guy discussion board
Here is my thought on cartoons and representationI absolutely believe that the industry should hire more POC, LGTBQ+ and women voice actors. No question. I don’t believe that what some one looks like or identifies as in RIL has to reflect on the characters in an animated show. As long as someone isn’t doing a racist and offensive caricature accent or speech mannerism(looking at you Apu) then I don’t think its a big deal.
Wow, so progressive.
I believe this makes you a bigoted, racist transphobe then. I’m not 100% sure, let me check Reddit and get back to you.
Yeah Reddit, that site that hosts bigoted, hate-crime planning communities. Really stigginit to them libs referencing THAT site.
r/woosh
I get that point, but casting and creation isn’t done in isolation of all the cultural biases. And also while the final product is the most visible, the whole process is pressured, that’s the writers and execs as well as the cast as well as the characters. There isn’t an “objective” casting so many corrective process is going to feel overprescriptive and blunt, but takes intentional diversifying on all levels and empowering them to be able to speak. Wyatt Cenac’s experience in The Daily Show comes to mind. Here, we can say Bouchard means it and see that meaning change isn’t enough by itself.
Take that American Dirt book that’s a bestseller. There are plenty of writers of color who take pains to say white authors can write about other races, but there was a book, with heavy promotional support, a seven-figure advance, and a basically lame plot. So there are calls for more latinx writers. The shift in culture many people want is a stew of things, but all of our ingredients and measurements are discrete.
I disagree with you, because I think we’re reached this point in the conversation for a reason. But, apart from that I’d rather go to the vicious cycle point: there’s no asian star in the states big enough to open Ghost in the Machine so they hire ScarJo…so then there’s no asian star in the states big enough to open X so they hire ScarJo…so then…or the same thing starting with Jared Leto then Jeffrey Tambor then AGAIN ScarJo with trans individuals. Same thing with Ridley Scott and Gods of Egypt, there certainly weren’t more Egyptian actors ready to open a hollywood movie after that movie opened. It’s not that everybody has to be a thundercat to voice a thundercat, that’s silly and reductive; it’s that we have reached a point where I can imagine an exec telling Stephen Yeun that the studio has decided to go with the bankable definitive asian impersonator Mickey Rooney.And I am guessing Bouchard meant the show wouldn’t have been made without Bell in that part, but I would appreciate if that were clarified.
Yeah, from what I’ve read, they hired the actors first and then built the characters around them:
“We cast first — in this case, it was building a bunch of characters
around him,” said Bouchard, pointing at “Central Park” actor and
executive producer Josh Gad, who was also participating in the media
scrum on stage after the panel. “We just said, ‘Who are your friends?
Who do you want to work with? Who’s going to come to work? Who’s going
to make themselves available?’ And he had this incredibly exciting list
of people. And it was very obvious… Leslie Odom Jr. had to be the dad.
Kathryn Hahn had to be the mom. Kristen had to be a daughter. Tituss
[Burgess] had to be a son. Those characters were sort of obvious, and
then we just had this problem.”
So it’s not like she was taking a role from a black actress; the role was created to give her something to do. It sounds like their real mistake was just not making the daughter character adopted; that way she could be white and have a black father and white mother and it wouldn’t have been a thing.
Agreed. I always thought if they wanted to keep Kristen Bell as the daughter of the show, have her be an adopted daughter because her parents tried conceiving and failed multiple times. And then oops turns out they can have kids when they had their son. Sounds silly but then again, Central Park is a cartoon.
Not silly to me. My folks were told they could never conceive, so they adopted my sister and me (not at the same time. Then when my mom was 38, she ended up pregnant, and that’s how I have a little brother.
You’re right, these things do happen. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to trivialize your familial background.
I’m mixed and I’ve been told “I sound white”, I have another friend that is mixed and sounds more “black”. We were raised by different families in different environments. Both of us can “sound” like the other. Neither one of us are adopted.We don’t need a backstory into why mixed kids can sound “white” and have both parents. It’s way more nuanced than that. Bell could have been their biological daughter is what I’m saying. I see your point in that, in the times we are living in, we need to elevate black artists and spotlight black artists with talent. I’m fine with that. That’s my fight too but I’m just annoyed that us mixed kids (specifically half white/half black American kids) get automatically lumped into a category on tv that we are never really a part of IRL. Now, to your second point: If a child of color wants to be a voice actor, what message does it send to them that a white actor is in the main role of a character of color like the child? That they aren’t good enough to be a main character and should settle for smaller, less prominent roles. Or worse, that they shouldn’t bother at all to pursue this career. I agree. We also need more black content.
I have no problem with mixed race characters sounding white. I should’ve elaborated further that Kristen Bell’s character should have been a white child that was adopted, and not a half-black child. She may not have been a biological child of the couple but if they wanted to keep Bell that badly, being white and adopted would’ve been the better option. The problem wasn’t to explain why Molly speaks like a Caucasian girl – and I agree with you that mixed characters don’t always have the accent based on their nonwhite identity, – but that she was portraying a character of color, despite the character also being half-white.
Okay personal talk now. I’m mixed as well (should have mentioned that in my earlier post). My dad may be white but my mother is of Asian descent and the whole immediate family usually lives in her home country, usually going on vacation to the States every few years. I went to university in the States and so did my younger brother and we are now residents here.My younger sister has a noticeable accent from the country we have lived in most of our lives. As for my brother and I, we either have an American accent or we do not. One coworker in my old workplace here commented earlier this year that “despite being raised outside the United States, I do not have a noticeable accent from said country. Or at all for that matter.” That could be attributed to my brother and I being high functioning autistic.
As a person with partial Asian descent, I believe that distinctly Asian characters, even those not wholly Asian and raised in the States, were voiced by Asian actors, again regardless of racial/ethnic percentage. My rationale behind this is to give these actors jobs that white actors would most likely have no trouble receiving. And I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t believe the same applies to actors of color who do not identify as Asian either.
And I second your statement about the need to provide more work by black creators for black audiences.
Yes, we both agree, thank you for your clarification. Thank you for your story as well :)You bring to mind the character of Ann from Amphibia. She is half Thai and played by Brenda Song, and I actually love that because like you said, it gives opportunity to talent that would not otherwise get the opportunity.
And thank you for bearing with my seemingly ranty comments. I don’t normally make long comments like this, it’s weird.
I’m putting Amphibia on my to-watch list so thanks for bringing up the show. And I’ll continue keeping an eye out for works by black creators and creators of other races too, as well as other marginalized groups.
Oh no problem!!! I enjoy having spirited discussions and understanding other points of view with reasonable people (you’re a reasonable person so I thank you *tips my hat*)Owl House did the same thing and I recommend that as well. Luz has a Latinx mother (I don’t know about her father it seems she is raised by a single mom) and she is voiced by a VA of LatinX descent. I have a 7 year old but I think I watch these more than she does lol.
Hey princess, I felt like I didn’t wrap up the conversation well last month.
But yes I’ve definitely had my eye on The Owl House too. The show has stunning animation, a Latinx lead, and the terrific Wendie Malick. And I’ve heard about recent developments in the show. So I’m very, very excited to give it a watch when it’s on Disney+.
I still roll my eyes at people getting upset about ScarJo as the Major. That flies in the face of the transhumanism theme. To quote Mamoru Oshii, director of the first GitS movie:
“The Major is a cyborg and her physical form is an entirely assumed one. The name ‘Motoko Kusanagi’ and her current body are not her original name and body, so there is no basis for saying that an Asian actress must portray her. Even if her original body (presuming such a thing existed) were a Japanese one, that would still apply.”
Yeah, that’s just not how reality works. Do you wonder why nearly the exact obverse logic allowed Joel Kinnaman to play an asian man in Altered Carbon? They only got around to addressing that in season 2, but by the end of the season it still isn’t clear that the actor playing Takeshi Prime (who is REALLY good) will be playing current Takeshi next season. Funny how erasure keeps erasing the people it keeps erasing, right? Just a coincidence, right? It also ignores that when making the movie there was a CONVERSATION and a DECISION that were not based upon fealty to your orthodox views of how transhumanism is properly conveyed. Pssssh you probably argue they’re erasing Hamlet’s whiteness if they cast a black actor in the part.
Altered Carbon is another transhumanist story where identity vs. body is one of the prime tensions, and it’s a bummer you missed that. They had a man playing a woman and it was fine. They had a black woman playing a white woman and it was fine. Anthony Mackie is a good choice for Takeshii, too, and he’s a black man. The whole point of that story is that your “sleeve” doesn’t matter. It’s also kind of racist to assume a person who’s bi-racially European and Asian has to look Asian.Erasure is a very real problem, but neither Altered Carbon nor the new Ghost in the Shell movie are guilty of it. The very nature of the stories are mysteries of identity and questions of humanity. I appreciate the energy of your post, but maybe check your targets to make sure they deserve it.
Or, and I don’t need to check this: you’re wrong.
So are all body-swapping stories inherently racist, or just the ones where a character inhabits a body that doesn’t look like their original? Asking for a friend.
Classic stupid troll: burden isn’t on me.
I mean, I’ve cited textual evidence for my point of view, here, and if you had any merit to your argument, you’d be able to do the same. It’s not hard to type words on a screen. If you can’t spare the two calories to do that, DM me and I’ll buy you some groceries. At this point, it’s more likely that you just haven’t watched Altered Carbon and are shooting off based on assumptions, without any kind of critical consideration. You should watch it; I think you’d like it!
These are the same geniuses who thought Black Panther would flop because “black people don’t like superheroes/sci-fi.”
It’s cart-before-horse every. Single. Time. Hell, execs still don’t think Denzel can lead an action movie because star power is DEFINITELY still a thing! (Just look at how much “The Tourist” made, starring two of the objectively biggest stars of modern times).
In an ideal world, it doesn’t matter. But we don’t live in an ideal world, so having voice actors reflect the race of their characters matters entirely because it creates opportunities for those actors.
Nail on the head.
But that’s the thing – in voice acting, there’s no reason whatsoever why they’d need to *specifically* be given opportunities to voice characters of their own race, and the suggestion that they do is kind of patronizing and vaguely racist itself. They could just as easily voice any other character regardless of race, and if some form of affirmative action was considered necessary, the same amount of opportunities could be created by just making sure to have a diverse cast of voice actors irrespective of who they were actually voicing. Which is basically what Bouchard had been trying to do in the first place…In fact, explicitly excluding anyone not of a character’s race from having a chance at being cast as their voice actor could probably open a studio up to discrimination lawsuits. Live-action media can do that because it can be part of the artistic vision or necessary for the story, but nothing inherent in voice acting makes race relevant at all, and I think it’s very likely that courts would see it that way, too.
It’s not just the opportunity. It’s how those characters are depicted, if you have a white person voicing a person of color they may be ok saying something or reading the line in a way that someone of that demo might not be comfortable or ok with – and that perspective gets lost by virtue of not being present. If you have a Black actor say “this line/scene/etc doesn’t feel right” that can (hopefully) be sent back to the writers and integrated into their process moving forward for more authentic characters and dialogue.
True, and thanks for bringing that up. In the ideal world your writer’s room is diverse enough that those problems don’t reach the actors, because you have those perspectives before the scripts are done, but of course, we’re not in the ideal world and the actors can definitely find issues in a script that the initial writers won’t.
I am all for creating opportunities for all actors, but I don’t believe the creators of Bobs Burgers created this phenomenal cast by purposely discriminating against anyone. They found a wonderfully creative group of actors that have such an amazing chemistry. I don’t think the show would be what it is today without all of them.
Agreed but with that said, Alison Brie has nothing to apologize for.
As much as I’d like a fair world where anyone can play anyone in a cartoon series, we’re sadly not there.
Regarding Kristen Bell’s casting as Molly – which I do like her in and will say she never put on a blaccent or anything offensive – it stings because she was chosen for a main role as a half-black character over instead of having a voice actress of black descent in the part. White voice actors will never be lacking for voice opportunities, non-white voice actors have it harder than they do.
If a child of color wants to be a voice actor, what message does it send to them that a white actor is in the main role of a character of color like the child? That they aren’t good enough to be a main character and should settle for smaller, less prominent roles. Or worse, that they shouldn’t bother at all to pursue this career.
You are a very foolish person.
an accent is offensive?
When it’s played for laughs? It is now.
Yaaah!
When it’s a white person doing a racist caricature, yes.
Well you mentioned apu. The accent is accurate. I work in it and with offshore. Is a british person doing an american accent racist? A southern accent?
Are you being willfully ignorant of why the Apu voice is racially insensitive or are you just legitimately ignorant? I ask because one means you need to get educated and the other means you’re an asshole.
Apu is a rounded out character. He drives a 80s trans-am. He got to playboy around town. He is portrayed as intellectual and knowledgeable. He got drunk and told everyone to take their clothes off at the st pattys day parade.Now the italian chef, there is a caricature. I think they actually made him not italian, but playing as italian at one point.
Would he still be all those things without the stereotypical overblown parody of an Indian accent that has a history of being used as a way of mocking and belittling Indian people and culture? He would? Great! Then we can safely lose the accent and get on with our day.
He is a first generation indian immigrant during the 80s. To give him a an american accent would have be wrong. It is NOT an overblown parody. Ive heard much worse real accents.
Ok, let’s try this: Are you Indian? I am going to go out on a limb and guess you are a white male (I heartily apologize if I have guessed incorrectly). It’s ok, I am, too! But here’s the thing: white people shouldn’t get to decide what is or is not an “overblown parody” here. In my opinion it is, in your opinion it isn’t and that’s fine. We’re all entitled to our opinions. But in this situation our opinions do not matter. Because we aren’t the people that it may offend, and it may offend those people for very good reasons that we would have no way to properly understand because we have not had the experiences they have had. So really, we should just shut the hell up and listen to them instead.
Im a Mediterranean mutt, with the heaviest bais toward lebanon. So not sure what that makes me. You could pick several silly accents to apply to me i suppose.
I still don’t get the Apu thing. At various times in my life, I’ve had coworkers, family members (both by marriage and in older generations by blood,) doctors, and random people I’ve interacted with in passing (including, wait for it, convenience store clerks,) who retain thick ethnic accents despite living and working in the United States.If you concede that that actually happens in real life, what are you left with? You’re left with a cartoon man on a cartoon show – a show that bears no consistent loyalty to the notion of verisimilitude – who nevertheless has been given a significant amount of depth across multiple seasons of television.It strikes me as devastatingly myopic and ironic to call Apu an offensive caricature when he’s been given so much depth that you could draw the exact opposite lesson: “hey, you know what? That funny-sounding foreign guy who works at a convenience store is actually a real human being, just like you and me. Maybe walk a mile in his shoes and understand why he ended up where he is.”At that point, the lesson actually *loses* impact if Apu has an American accent and is randomly a lawyer or whatever. Of course you can still have that version of the character, too, if you want. Different jokes, different lessons. Hey look, this Indian guy with an Indian name is virtually indistinguishable from Patrick Bateman! PROGRESS!If I were working for The Simpsons, I’d recast Apu with a straight up Indian actor whose natural accent is even thicker, and I’d make sure said actor had spent 20 years applying that godawful skin-whitening cream to boot.
I have no take on representation in cartoons. I have no strong feelings one way or the other. I do believe they should arrest cops who murder black people. I do believe they should defund the police in large cities and put the money into trained individuals of relevant professions who can respond to calls for help without killing people.
Do you like sandwiches?
I pathologically enjoy sandwiches. It’s a problem and I’m about 15 lbs over weight because of it. I’m already thinking about how I’m going to make chicken salad for lunch tomorrow — fresh dill, tarragon, artisan mustard, fresh ciabatta. Should I roast the chicken? Poach it in a garlic brine? I fucking love sandwiches.
Cops watch those cartoons. It all connects.
This is what 100% of people thought every moment of their lives right up to the moment that they heard the casting would be changed.
As others have pointed out, when casting is already biased against minority actors, cis/white people at least shouldn’t be taking the parts that minorities are already typecast to – ‘cos then there’s nothing left.Yeah, it’s treating a symptom of a bigger disease, but it’s something we can action a bit sooner than overhauling the film/TV industry to be less racist.
1. Overall, as long as your hiring basically represents your region’s demographics, that’s a start. So, if your area is half black and 10% inidan, your staff should reflect this.
2. I have no problem with animated POC played by white folks; i have even less problem with animated white characters played by POC actors. So if you’re going to break rules, break rules. Get POC playing white roles, if you’re going to do the opposite.
“acting” is a SKILL, if you don’t have the SKILL, don’t cry for the JOBfucking bring EVERYONE downread “Harrison Bergeron” by Kurt Vonnegut for referencehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
I’ll have to let my Father, who was born in Italy and moved to Canada in his early-20s, before moving to the States in his late-20s, know that he’s been doing a racist and offensive caricature accent or speech mannerism for the last 40+ years. He’ll be devastated.
I honestly think it will come down to either no more human characters or grey blobs like in that fairly odd parents episode. That’s the only viable option considering the cost of hiring for every single character to ever appear in a show for however big or small the cameo every single time.
In a perfect world, I’m sure few people would disagree. If there was a legitimate opportunity for an actor from any background to get a role from any other background, cool! Cast the best talent, because in this perfect world anyone from any background would have the same educational opportunities as well.
Unfortunately that’s not the case currently. It’s hard for people from some backgrounds to be cast as people of that background in a LIVE tv show/movie, let alone just voicing a cartoon. And that’s just the end result from a system that favors white people from the very start of their lives. So yeah, let’s first try to focus on making sure we cast minority actors in appropriate roles.
My problem with all of this is that I think it’s a dangerous precedent to set to say that you can only cast characters using voice actors of their own race.
Yes, you absolutely want fair and equal representation of minority actors in the industry, and that hasn’t been happening. Minority actors should always be favored for minority roles because of the perspective they can bring. But making an inflexible rule of this also gives producers an excuse to never cast black actors in non-black roles, which I think is potentially even more damaging.
And yes, sometimes it’s part of the joke that, say, Tina sounds like a guy, and I think that’s fine… as long as women have the same opportunities, as Kristen Schall said.
But black actors aren’t even being hired for black roles.
Like I said, that also needs to be fixed. It was the whole middle part of my message. I’m just saying I don’t think it should be made a rule that nobody but black people can take black character roles, because a hard rule like that can quickly be used against black actors. We don’t want to see black actors not being considered for non-black roles, like Phil LaMarr as Samurai Jack as one example.
I would say worry about the actual problems before the hypothetical ones. Especially since nobody’s saying that black actors can only play black roles, and casting decisions don’t seem to need any pretext to not hire black people.
I didn’t say people are saying “black actors can only play black roles”, I said they’re saying “only black actors can play black roles”. If you make that a hard rule, then it’s a logical extension that the producers being held to that standard would also say “only white actors can play white roles” and so on. I don’t think that’s a hypothetical problem at all.
“If you make that a hard rule”Again, who is doing this? You can’t say a problem isn’t hypothetical when you literally describe it as something that only might happen.
When actors currently in established cross-racial roles are being pushed out of those roles and the general popular thinking is that such casting is wrong and should be both avoided and undone in the case of existing roles, you’re pretty much making it a hard rule.
But black actors are already being shut out of black roles! It’s been happening for decades! The trend you’re talking about started, like, two weeks ago and will very likely be forgotten by Thanksgiving.
…You really are not reading my comments at all. I never said anything about whether or not black actors are being shut out of black roles right now. I’m talking about the current thinking on this issue resulting in shutting them out of everything but black roles.
And you’re not reading mine. If producers want to shut black actors out, they don’t need an excuse. You’re worried about something that’s already happening without your hypothetical. It’s like saying we shouldn’t put a fire out because it’s hot and another fire might start.
No, I’m worrying about something that has the potential to be a) worse and b) codified in a way that gives producers a justification. As something that’s meant to be a solution to the problem, it fails.
They don’t need a justification. And the reality of the situation is already worse than the hypothetical that you’re concern trolling about.
There it is: “concern trolling”.
If you can’t have an adult conversation about this, we’re done. Especially since you can’t seem to grasp the difference between an implicit and an explicit policy.
And you’re whining about language choice and not addressing the points I’m making. And again, it’s cute that you think they need to make an explicit policy, which could easily be protested, when they have an implicit one already to go which contains all the plausible deniability in the world.
What I’m doing is refusing to engage with someone who can’t have a discussion without childishly second-guessing the other party’s motivations for the discussion. Call it “whining” if you want to; that just further shows you’re not ready to have an adult discussion about the subject.
I’m sorry, I thought an “adult discussion” involved addressing the other person’s points instead of sulking over a phrase you didn’t like. I guess not everyone is capable of debating using facts and logic. Emotions get in the way, and all that.
Correct. Not everyone is capable of debating using facts and logic, and those are the ones who resort to ad hominems and strawmen. When you can drop that behavior, give me a shout.
Says the guy who’s been propping up a sad-looking “what if?” strawman this entire discussion.
I’m not saying you’re necessarily doing this here, but I have noticed that Phil LaMarr as Samurai Jack gets brought up a LOT in these discussions, and it seems to be with the idea that it’s crazy to think of anyone but Phil LaMarr playing the character.I love the series, and I think he did a fantastic job, but I think it’a a bit of a stretch for people to toss him out there as if it was nigh impossible for anyone else to have voiced the character. Samurai Jack easily could have been just as amazing if they had cast a Japanese actor for the role instead.
I’m not using him as an example of a character who couldn’t have been performed by anyone else, but I am using him as an example of a black actor cast in a role that is not a black character, which I think is a good thing, or at the very least not a bad thing.
To clarify: actors of all races need to have opportunities, and actors of color need to have more opportunities than they have. But I don’t think saying everyone should stick to roles of their own race is a good way to achieve that.
But very rarely is it an argument as narrow as “people should stick their own kind/etc.” when it comes to voice casting roles; that’s typically only thrown out there, IMO, as a counter-argument to people take issue with poor POC voice actor representation/lack of opportunities.And LaMarr as Samurai Jack still comes across to me as a pretty shoddy strawman at best along these lines; a black actor being cast to play a Japanese character isn’t an example of the kind of fair POC representation people are wanting there to be more of. That’s largely seeing this as, “well, the character is POC, and they got a POC actor….that’s good enough.” Bottom line, they could have very easily cast a Japanese voice actor, and still made the same amazing show. Hell, I don’t even think it was an actively malicious thing; I just think the thought didn’t even really cross their mind, which is the whole problem in the first place.
I can’t tell if you’re being obtuse or intellectually dishonest here. My argument isn’t that POC characters should be played by POC actors and it doesn’t matter which C they are. My argument is that where voice acting is concerned, producers should be judicious and sensitive without using the actor’s race as a hard line. By all means, the role of a black character should have a black actor strongly considered because of the nuance and perspective they can bring, and likewise with a Japanese character or whatever have you. But if you start drawing lines in the sand, you run the risk of it backfiring.
And since you seem to take such offense to Phil LaMarr as an example, let me give you more. Cree Summer has played several famous white cartoon characters going back 35 years. Kevin Michael Richardson has several white characters to his credit as well. Keith David and Jaleel White both have also played non-black characters as far as I recall. There are additionally some Asian and Latinx actors who have played white characters.
In a world in which VAs are cast exclusively or near-exclusively by race, you only wind up with fewer potential jobs for black and other actors. That’s a potential we’re not currently at, which we need to reach not by putting actors in bins, but by getting producers and casting directors to widen their nets for every role.
I simply disagree with this, for lack of a better term, “casually altruistic” approach you seem to have towards this, that ultimately seems to fall back on the idea that the best person will end up with the job, and POC representation in voice acting needs little more than a nudging along of support. The playing field is swerved so dramatically in favor of white voice actors getting the vast majority of American voice acting roles that any concerns of “backfiring lines in the sand” or “putting actors in bins” can’t help but ring especially hollow. We’re so damn far from that point, so when people start immediately pushing back like we’re suddenly on the verge of only narrowly casting people for roles they exactly represent, it just feels to me, as you yourself said, intellectually dishonest. That’s so unrealistically not what people are calling for, nor are we even remotely close to something like that happening.
Again, the problem isn’t necessarily that Phil LaMarr voices Samurai Jack. The problem is that Japanese voice actors are so poorly represented in American animation that it would appear they didn’t even think to try and cast a Japanese or Japanese-American voice actor to play a main character expressly designed and written as Japanese.
It’s not casually altruistic at all. I don’t expect it to happen by itself or by the good graces of directors, “nudging” as you call it. It should happen via consistently applied market-based and social pressure, like we’re doing. I just don’t think that pressure should include an explicit expectation that every single black character be played by a black actor, every single Asian character be played by an Asian actor, etc. Because the natural extension of that is every white character being played by a white actor, and while that’s already happening by and large, codifying it is a step in the wrong direction.
That will, quite frankly, take too long and likely not change much.
Very few people are arguing for a hard fast rule that “character X can only be played voice actor X.” The argument is, “characters that are designed and written to represent very, very unrepresented characters should also be played by voice actors who are also even more unrepresented in their field.”There’s nothing about Bob Belcher that is “white” outside of that he was colored beige and given a certain haircut. If a non-white person plays that character, nothing is being lost or taken away because characters like him are the norm (as opposed to Samurai Jack, who was expressly designed and written to be Japanese). They are the industry standard. There’s zero reason why ensuring that the few POC/non-binary/non-hetero characters out there aren’t voiced by non-POC/binary/hetero actors means that white voice actors HAVE to voice white characters. One is the right thing to do, and the other is unnecessary. We simply…don’t do it. We simply (and rightly) realize that a POC voice actor voicing a white character isn’t a problem, and that a white voice actor voicing a POC character is. Until the dramatically unfair balance of power is shifted, that’s just how it needs to be. The industry hasn’t been fair to everyone else for its entire existence, so now it’s time that it’s a little bit less fair to the people who have unfairly dominated it the entire time. What’s FAR more unfair than white characters being voiced by non-white voice actors are situations where the limited pool of POC voice roles are effectively forced to be cannibalized by the limited pool of POC voice actors.
I’d much rather see more people trying to actively do the right thing to address problems in this industry that actually exist than worrying about hypotheticals that both aren’t actually a thing, and serve to ultimately do little more than largely preserve the status quo.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this, because I think preserving the status quo is exactly what you’re doing when you’re demanding white actors to get booted from non-white roles and for those roles to be filled exclusively with actors who match the ethnicity of the character. Which is what we’re seeing happen now: it’s not a hypothetical.
And when I call it a “hard rule” that’s what I’m talking about: it’s about as close as the industry will get to a rule requiring complete racial matching on all its casting. Do you really think this pressure is going to result in more roles for POC VAs? It does nothing to lure them into the industry. It does nothing to encourage writers to write more POC characters; in fact it may actively discourage them from doing so rather than face potential social scorn from casting the wrong actors.
What I want is action that will actually matter. The campaign of social pressure is good action, but it’s not enough… and demanding lines in the sand about who can play who won’t solve the problem.
“you’re demanding white actors to get booted from non-white roles and for those roles to be filled exclusively with actors who match the ethnicity of the character.”I’m sorry, but that’s not what I’m demanding. Again, the only time I’m saying that kind of effort should be made to expressly match the actor with the character is when the effort has been obviously made to identify the character specifically along those lines. Like Samurai Jack. Like Missy on Big Mouth. Like Molly on Central Park. If the creators are going to take the time and effort to so specifically design and write a character along those lines, where their ethnic/cultural/sexual/etc. identity is so integral to the character, then it shouldn’t be a problem to also cast along those lines. It’s not like we’re talking about creating unicorns here, which is why this…
“It does nothing to encourage writers to write more POC characters; in fact it may actively discourage them from doing so rather than face potential social scorn from casting the wrong actors.”….rings very false with me. This makes it seem like it’s some kind of elaborate, ridiculously puzzle they have to decipher to cast the character *they themselves* created. If that’s the character they want on screen…then simply out a casting call out for actors who fit the bill. And if that means they have to cast outside of the usual VA circles…then good! That’s how you bring new people and better representation in to the industry.
Bottom line, the number of characters who are actively created and written as “needing” to be white based on the creator’s choices is, IMO, ridiculously tiny. The vast majority of animated characters who are “white” are clearly that way simply as a default mechanism. That clearly isn’t the case with the majority of non-white/non-straight/non-binary animated characters. They are created and designed with their identity along those lines as an integral part of who the character is. That’s why that representation matters so much more right now, and that’s why worrying about who “should” get to play white animated characters is so much less of an issue, because with most of these the characters their “whiteness” is irrelevant outside of a basic default color choice.
I didn’t mean you specifically; that was a general “you”. And yes, that is absolutely the aim of the current social pressure being applied, as far as I’ve seen: that any white actors playing non-white roles (or indeed male actors playing female roles) are a point of controversy whose endpoint is their replacement with a more race- or gender-matched actor.
As for the rest of what you wrote, your logic seems a bit bizarre. The industry already has an issue with representing POC and women properly in animated media, so how is the public chastising them over already-cast roles (in some cases longstanding roles) supposed to help? You call that an “elaborate puzzle” but that’s a very simple step to take, to believe they may simply duck the issue by reducing that representation altogether.
Additionally, you refer to characters who “need to be white” but I think that misses the point entirely. If you want “default whiteness” to end, that’s a problem that needs to be addressed at the root: by getting more minority talent into the industry. With more proper representation on the production side, you get more minority characters who don’t “need to be minorities” and most of this becomes moot. And again: what’s happening right now does nothing to fix that problem; it’s a band-aid at best and actively harmful at worst.
I think the idea that holding the creators/producers/etc. of animated shows to the expectation that they should cast more broadly and fairly for the characters that THEY THEMSELVES are creating is something that is going to drive down representation in the industry is faulty.
They’re the ones creating these minority characters that should be cast appropriately; if holding them to that is going to send them running away from creating those characters, well, then to paraphrase a very wise man, “why should we be the ones who have to change? They’re the ones that suck.”But seriously, I think that’s a self-defeating argument. If they’re willfully creating these characters in the first place, it’s hardly some kind of unreasonable expectation to see them cast a wider net in the voice casting. It’s hardly some insurmountable task for them, and it’s practically the bare minimum they can do. Otherwise them creating minority characters and NOT casting them appropriately is pretty outrageously exploitative. And, quite honestly, I think them simply not creating these characters is a FAR less likely response than, “oh yeah? Well, then all of the white characters HAVE to be played by white people! So there!”
I didn’t say they’re just going to do it on their own. The pressure needs to come from outside. But it needs to be the right kind of pressure: namely, aimed at getting them to hire more minority folks on the production end. The effects of that will trickle down and affect the distribution of acting talent as well.
You’re arguing something different.
Yes, I am!
I agree with you but only in principle, because that is overridden, by orders of magnitude, by the need for more diversity behind the scenes.If anyone can play anyone, then pretty much every player will be a straight white man. That’s just how it has historically gone. That’s literally the reason why there’s a “rich tradition” of male actors playing adult women in cartoons and in live-action comedy, but not the reverse.
If we make it taboo or uncomfortable for white men to play roles that are not white men, then the goal that creators already have to bring diverse characters into their work will be reflected behind the scenes. It is a practical concern, and it’s more important than the artistic freedom of open casting because the potential harm caused be favoring one over the other is wildly out of balance.
Because if a great actor can’t play a role they’d be great in, well, you know what, that’s a bummer but maybe we can learn that restricting the casting to match the demographics of the character doesn’t in any way actually restrict your creative options, it just makes your job a little harder because you can’t cast your writing partner or friend from college.And if you really want to cast that white man as a POC or woman character, you still can, but you better be ready to defend your choice, and accept a little heat from people who don’t agree with your choice and who you’ll never convince otherwise.
And hey, that’s more than worth it.
What happened to hiring the best person for the job?
Just because you’re gay doesn’t mean you can do the best voice for a gay character. And how does ones voice change based on your skin colour for that matter? Is there some special frequency of people’s voices that’s different based on your skin colour?Do we really want to lower quality of any work really because you have to hire x amount of y, z, w and a? Instead of actually hiring the best person available?And if this really goes through that you can’t have a white character being voiced by a black person, or a gay character being voices by a straight person. Then what about live action movies and shows? Will they recast Nick Fury since he was a white character in the original comics? Probably ending up with a worse actor instead of the person best suitable for the job….
I don’t think that’s enough anymore.I mean, I get that sometimes wanting a character to subvert expectations by sounding a lot different than their appearance would suggest may be a good way to make a character standout or serve as a one-off joke, but I see nothing wrong with giving a person of that gender, race, or sexual preference a chance to provide that voice. And if its so important to have someone of a different gender, race, or sexual preference voice the role, then there should be a question as to why that’s the case, because there may be a very big underlying problem there.
Using the Simpsons as an example, look at Dr. Hibbert. He’s voiced by Harry Shearer. There’s no character reason for him to be voiced by a white man. His race is barely even a plot point on the show.But, ignoring all of that, consider voice acting in general. There’s probably a dozen or two go-to voice actors that scoop up a lot of roles. Then there’s your big name celebrities used for name recognition or stunt casting. And that’s about it. There’s a lot of room in that picture to make new names of varying backgrounds to provide a more diverse spectrum of voices in animation (and video games and anime dubbing, since this problem extends beyond American cartoons)
I get what you’re saying, but the status quo leads to white dudes getting more of the jobs when just maybe someone else could represent the role a lot better.
Yea man, more women should voice men. I mean, nobody complains about Naruto and Goku at all…
“I mean, nobody complains about Naruto and Goku at all…”
Exactly. And don’t forget that Bart Simpson, Milhouse van Houten, the Pesto Twins and Bobby Hill sure didn’t last as a result of all the backlash against women playing male characters.
Right?
“Yes! Anuses!”
You mean Mort and Teddy?
HahahaHAHAHAHAHA!! 😆🤣
Tbis is why I just couldn’t finish watching Adventure Time once I found out that the voice actress for Marceline wasn’t even a real vampire.
It was a devastating loss when I found out. I still haven’t recovered.
I’m pretty sure that Olivia Olson is a vampire. No human being could be that lovely and mesmerizing
She is an amazibg person and so talented. I can’t wait for the next HBO movie, it’s focused on Marceline and PB’s relationship.
First I’m hearing of this, and while I was initially very sceptical of additional Adventure Time content after the show ended, between the positive things I’m hearing about the BMO thing that’s on HBO and now this, I am officially intrigued!
Heres the poster for it!
Looks pretty sweet!
The Comic Con panel for Distant Lands was adorable if you havent seen it already (also on HBO Max). Olivia is always a great panelist – I am guessing bc she seems sincere and also seems to have a deep love for the show. Doesnt hurt that she almost always performs a song or two. (we saw her and her dad at Denver Pop Culture Con or whatever they call it now)
Lord, her voice is just so beautiful
Ehh… You haven’t met Mrs Snow Dog, who’s standing right behind me while I type this…
I wish that no man would ever brag again about a work force that is less than 50 percent women. Just because it is not as bad as it was does not mean that it is good.
It’s like sayin “Just because you’re 50% of the population doesn’t mean you can expect to be 50% of the workforce!”
It’s only a matter of time before they come for Frank Welker and demand all animal voices be represented by the appropriate breed and species.
If you try and come at Frank Welker, the sheer density of his imdb page will suck you in and crush you like a black hole.
850 acting/voice acting credits?! I think that’s the most I’ve seen on any IMBD listing.
And its even crazier when you think about the fact that each show only counts as one credit no matter how many episodes he was in, so once you factor in things like 100+ eps of the 2008 Garfield show, Curious George, Muppet Babies, Ghostbusters etc. and lots of shows in the 20-50 episode range, he has appeared in THOUSANDS of episodes of television, probably tens of thousands of episodes even.And she’s nowhere near Welker’s numbers, but Olivia Colman’s imdb is another that I think of as a crazy amount of work. She’s only done a little bit of voice work, which is usually the quickest way to rack up lots credits because its usually less of a time/travel commitment than a live action role. And yet some how she has accrued 106 acting credits since her first credited role in 2000, and she’s usually in more than one TV series at a time that are airing simultaneously while still making multiple films a year. It feels like she is in everything because she damn near is! edit: of course there’s a page for this, apparently if you count all categories (film, television, video etc) and exclude celebrities appearing as themselves, then Welker is in fact #1! https://getsatisfaction.com/imdb/topics/statistics-and-curious-facts-about-acting-credits#:~:text=Names%20with%20most%20credits%2Ftitles,)%20%5B799%20uncredited%20items%5D.
Ah, I’m not at all shocked by Mel Blanc taking (presumably) the top spot. I was thinking John DiMaggio & Maurice LaMarche were way up there, but even those two pikers together can’t match Welker’s current number.
The Mel Blanc entry is highlighted because of my google search, but if you scroll up you see Welker actually has Blanc beat on total credits, and if you count people appearing as themselves then Alex Trebek is king. And Blanc’s number is an oddity because he has the most FILM credits, but that’s because lots of his voice work was on the old Looney Tunes shorts that are qualified as Films because they were theatrical shorts instead of TV episodes or Video credits.
That’s a much more comprehensive approach than I was taking – I was simply looking at the numbers IMDB listed for acting credits, regardless of medium.
How many separate times has he appeared as Fred by now? I bet that’s his No. 1. And so many multiple roles on the same shows, he wasn’t just Megatron, he was Soundwave and Ravage(ha!)and like 6 more wikipedia says too!
Apparently he has voiced every animated incarnation of Fred except for A Pup Named Scooby Doo and the new Scoob! movie (although in Scoob! he is the voice of Scooby), that’s gotta be at least a couple hundred episodes and dozens of movies.
“It feels like she is in everything because she damn near is!”And she knows it too! (opening scene)
Stop. Just stop.
Bob’s Burgers has done some women voicing men/boys. Sarah Silverman and her sister do Andy and Ollie. I personally don’t have a problem with a ciswoman voicing a cisman character. I think that’s fair play, and I think it’s especially fair if that’s the norm on a show.I think choosing to have POC voice POC moves into different territory because even with the best intentions a voice performance as a POC is going to venture into parody and that walks a fine line – think Mike Henry as Cleveland. I don’t think Henry meant to be doing anything offensive, but replicate speech patterns based on stereotypes is always going to be a problematic choice.
Hey, fellow Russian, always nice to see you still kicking about.
You’re an idiot.
How appropriate. You fight like a cow.
Please tell me “You fight like a cow” is a common Russian insult.
It is not.
Then you have a unique genius for insults, because that’s a good one.
Well, I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but this was just a direct reference to the character I’ve named myself after, from the series of, ahem, old-timey games called Monkey Island.
And you’re unfunny and a nobody.
I have my moments.
Venturing into parody or stereotypes is probably the worst-case scenario. Best-case scenario? It’s simply tokenism.
i think it’s important to note that central park really sucks, regardless of who voices the characters.
How about tina being so perverted that a male version of her could never happen? How about that thing?
Would a 14 boy spying on the girls locker room really go down well? Or CONSTANTLY staring at their tits? And getting super creepy and physical with them?
Well, we found the Incel hot-take.The reason Tina bothers you is that you’re seeing what the male gaze looks like reflected back at you and it bothers you. If you need a creepy 14 year old male example look at any high school film made in the past 40 years.
“When the fictional cartoon teen girl tries to break into the boys’ locker room people laugh, but when I try to peep on the girls’ room I get called a pervert and arrested! It’s not fair!”
You offered the “look any-fucking-where!” response I was too disinterested to provide, so thanks for that.
Happy to help.
So, its a revenge thing?
No, it’s a comedy thing.
It’s a “let’s flip the script and watch the Incels anger piss themselves on comment threads” thing.
I just find it gross. Feels a lot more family guy.
Obviously you haven’t seen the pilot episode where tina was originally supposed to be a boy, this I assume is what rauth was referring to.
Meh. Hire some more people for new characters.But whatever you do, don’t you dare recast or take away Ms. LaBonz
reminds me of
So the arguement is that casting should match the character, that is a reasonable statement. In Central Park we have 3 cases where this is clearly not the case: Bell miscasted for racial reasons, Tucci for gender reason and Diggs for racial AND gender reason. Why is there not an outcry for Tucci and Diggs to be replaced as well as Bell if the true goal is for fair and accurate casting? If you look at the balance sheet for minority casting (and when you are considering mainstream media both PoC and women, particularly older women are minorities) the PoC side is kinda balanced with one PoC played by a white actor and one white character played by a person of colour. Counter wise older women are are woefully underrepresented by 2.So with Bell’s replacement PoC are now over represented in the V/O cast compared to the characters and we are still down on older women. Why is this the line of imbalance that is accepted as fine?
“one of the perks of animation is that you can have whatever voice come out of whatever face. He was saying that this was one of the “fun” aspects of making a cartoon”Turns out this lifelong animator doesn’t know shit compared to random white people complaining onlilne!
What the fuck do you think this topic has to do with animating? Guy revealed himself to be a dumbshit about modern social politics, not technical aspects of the animation process. That can happen to any clueless jackass, in any field, anytime. (Like you, right now, for instance.)
You also tell on yourself when you insinuate it’s only white people who give a shit about these things in exchange for, I dunno, the PC-police brownie points that racist people seem to think exist and that we are vying for at all times. Couldn’t be actual POC, other minorities, women, and their various allies just sincerely caring about these topics and wanting to see more respect and equality in all areas of life for everyone. Nah, gotta be just white people vying for fake woke points.
Asshole.
^chapo fan
Chapo fan^
Turns out a lifelong woman (Schaal) doesn’t know shit about the lack of opportunities in Hollywood for people who aren’t random white men compared to a random white man!
Kristen Shall wrote for South Park, one of the most sexist and bigoted shows ever made. I really don’t give a fuck what she says.
Taken at face value I totally agree with you, but when the end result is just a lot of straight white guys getting the majority of the work, I think it’s worth re-evaluating our priorities.
Please don’t change Bob’s Burgers because of social pressure. There’s something organic about it, that will be lost. They have nothing to apologize for..
Yes, replace the white actor playing the biracial character because as we all know, just one drop of “black blood” in your gene pool makes you irredeemably black. At least, that’s what my grandpappy Bubba always says.
so according to the JOJO RABBIT RULEyou can play HITLER if you’re brown and downbut if you’re scarlet johansen, it’s white MILFs only“acting” is a SKILL, if you don’t have the SKILL, don’t cry for the JOB fucking bring EVERYONE downread “Harrison Bergeron” by Kurt Vonnegut for reference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
Meanwhile, every single voice actor who’s ever done an anime dub begins to sweat.
So, as a Scotsman, can I request an Italian stop voicing Willie?
There are more White people in the US. White people make more money than any other demographic in the US. White people own Hollywood. Shows will cast more White people to make the show popular with White people, to make more money. TV execs could care less about content or creativity (see last 20 years of Reality TV) as long as it sells to the 2/3’s of the population and fills their pockets.
Asian people make more money than anyone is the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_States#:~:text=In%202015%2C%20Asian%20American%20men,Americans%20counterparts%20since%20about%202000.
“In 2015, Asian American men were the highest earning racial group at $24/hour. Asian American men earned 117% as much as white American men ($21/hour) and have been out earning their white Americans counterparts since about 2000. Similarly, in 2015 Asian American women earned 106% as much as white American women.[26]”
If it isn’t offensive or mocking anyone of race, gender,etc. Why recast? I like the idea of adding new characters little by little throughout the seasons but let’s be honest if the animators do decide to do this, it will begin to feel like the Simpsons or a SpongeBob show. Over running, lost of quality, and then more complaints will arrive about what happened to the show. Why does PC (political correctness)has to be taken so literally nowadays? Equality for all is valid, but to complain where there’s no issue, what is the reason? If no one like it then don’t watch it, if you don’t want to hear it, don’t listen. The world is what we and our ancestors created it to be. Despite how much PC occurs there’s always going to be complaints.
I thought one of the better advantages of VA was always the ability to take on any role, regardless of gender/age/race.Goku being voiced by a portly older Japanese woman comes to mind.But also, Cree Summer voicing Penny on Inspector Gadget.It was actually Phil Lamar that put this in my head when I was younger. I saw him in an interview during my pitch-fever love with MadTV, and he said something to the effect of preferring VA because he got jobs that might have usually been given to the white guy. And sure a s**t, this man has an EXHAUSTING VA career. Cree Summer also reflected this notion in an interview around Drawn Together (I still love this show), as well, specifically hitting on the ability to voice male characters. But, Fox pumping billions of dollars at white men like Matt Groening, Seth MacFarlane, and whoever is the guy that does Bob’s Burgers to keep their “slice of American pop-culture references” animated shows running for decades seems to be catching onto this … now, I guess? Better late than…
whatever.
I fucking hate living in this world.
A nice reminder not to feed the troll who’s stuck in pending and forever shall be.
I was wondering how long before people would come for poor Bob’s Burgers. No one wants Linda and Tina recast because Mintz and Roberts are exceptional in their roles. But of course, the Not-Good-Enough patrol are out trying to act like this is an important matter that needs to be dealt with.It’s not. It does not matter. Bob’s Burgers is a brilliant show, and manages to be a bright, funny, positive look at humanity. Of course none of that matters.
Do you though?
Fuck it , the sooner we improve AI speech synthesis enough that it can convey emotions successfully and just get rid of actors with all their human baggage , the better.
guess what? its only a matter of time before they decide drag queens are offensive for not being biological women.
I’m mixed. The only thing that I don’t like about Bell playing Molly is that she sounds like Princess Anna and that is mindfuckery I do. not. need.
Always a delight when a creator responds to criticism with maturity and thoughtfulness, and then his “defenders” shit the sandbox and call it freedom of expression.
oh, ffs.
The only real sin is having somebody put on a fake accent.