And now The A.V. Club’s watch is ended: Final thoughts on the Mad Queen, Team Stark, and who won the great game
TV Features Winter Is Here With The A.V. Club
The ash has settled and new dawn rises over Westeros. The A.V. Club gives our final thoughts on this season of Game Of Thrones, how “The Iron Throne” did and did not work for us, and who the real winner of this whole game was. (It’s Sansa.) Senior Writer Katie Rife and Managing Editor Caity PenzeyMoog are joined by special guests in this final episode of Winter Is Here: Our writer Alex McLevy, who has been recapping the show all season, and our TV Editor Erik Adams join the show for some parting thoughts.
You can watch the above video podcast today, and listen to the audio version below. If you like what you hear, please subscribe on iTunes and give us a five-star rating to help other listeners find us. For more discussion, visit our Game Of Thrones experts and newbies recaps, and join us in revisiting pivotal moments in our series, Month Of Thrones.
Thanks for listening in.
171 Comments
It’s funny. I know GRRM gave some major points for D&D to have included in the show, now at the end, it just feels like it’s been a season(!) of connecting the dots, then cut to black. Like…he gave them the points, but just didn’t let them in on HOW it would play out. I’ll give one example of something that D&D already played out last night, just played out differently, but with the same beginning and ending:Forever in my head canon, this will be the way it went down in the throne room: Dany walks in and sits on the thrown (because why WOULDN’T she, after only wanting it for 8 seasons), Jon comes in and stands beside her and they have their convo, he still stabs her, he falls to her knees sobbing. Enter the Drogon, he sees his dead mom, proceeds to blow a major firestorm on Jon. Smoke finally settles, Jon still alive, sitting clutching a now fallen Dany beside him, both on a massive iron puddle. Both naked. Both unsinged. Because!THAT’S how you play it out. The throne melted because Drogon was aiming at Jon. Why would a dragon have any issue with a chair?!Two Targaryens lying naked on a melted throne. All the pieces were RIGHT there :/Okay, g’night. It’s been a lovely 8 seasons.
It sounded like GRRM spent quite a bit of time with D&D and gave them details for how every character’s story would go, more than just a couple brief plot points. I think it’s more likely that D&D cut / changed a bunch of stuff (we already know they did) and it resulted in the end not seeming to fit the episodes before it.
THey probably couldnt fit his ending anyways since they cut out so many characters from the books that are critical to the story. Theres probably a character or two they cut out a long time ago that has something to do with the ending and they had to figure out an alternate way.
Martin gave them the bullet points, sure. But a scene like this, or any number of fucking cool events, he probably has a clutch of them in the back of his mind. And as a writer, I imagine he saved some of the good shit for himself, after all, why wouldn’t he? I always hoped Jon would get a “Dracarays” … wait for it … wait for it… nothing happens. Bran warged the dragon. Martin still has them all tucked away. He’ll play one or two when the books come out. When’s that? I don’t get the feeling he’ll croak before they come out. If anything he’s holding on to them to cap his career and until such a time that he’s ready to retire. The suspense of holding those cards is what keeps him feeling vital.
He probably gave them an outline and thought he’d fill it all in with the books. Since he didn’t finish them, Benioff & Weiss were left hanging and just stuck to the bullet points.
Fan bullcrap.
Jon badly burned his hand in season 1. He’s not immune to fire or heat like Dany. Nor was Viserys. Nor was book Dany, except for the one time.
At least two times for Dany, I thought? The funeral pyre for Drogo in season 1, and the burning of all the Khals in season 6ish. And a few other less dramatic references to her heat resistance in the early seasons.Viserys’ death in season 1 was one of my top 3 moments from that first season.
It’s a one time only instance for Dany in the books, who receives burns whenever she rides Drogon. TV show Dany genuinely does seem to be fireproof
Jon isn’t impervious to fire.
Drogon had issue with the chair because he knew it was a symbol that his mom fought for and killed for and knew that that symbol is what led to his mothers death.
Or maybe he thought it was tacky.
That might be it. He looked at Jon and said: “Aw, girl! You know you ain’t sitting on that ugly thing. I thought mom was gonna tell you, but someone bitch-stabbed her. Can’t do a thing about that but I can melt the fuck outta this ratched-ass chair.”
Bob: Come on… Bran warging the dragon is the classic ‘accomplice with a gun hiding the whole time’ deus-ex machina stuff that happens in movies and show all the damn time. It would have been lame. This why writing is one of those things many people, myself incluced, only THINK they can be good at, but don’t themselves often realize how much ‘their original thoughts’ are previously regurgitated formula. And to Rogue: Sorry… but your BECAUSE scenario is so thematically muddled. How will he kiss her while she is sitting, for starters or get close enough for her to be caught unawares? A standing and a sitting person kissing looks in any case more than awkward. There is absolutely no thematic point to the dragon burning Jon and Daenerys and them emerging naked.
The writers did an excellent job here: Daenerys didn’t sit on the throne, because touching the throne mirrors the vision she had and, besides, she never truly acquired the power and authority that makes someone deserving of having a seat. The Throne was destroyed because Drogon smells her on it, and since Jon is cool, he views the throne as the foreign object and the thing that killed her, which in a very real sense is true.
Jon is Ice and Fire, whereas Dany was pure fire… Also, not all Targaryens are fire immune, there was an ancestor killed by their own dragon’s fire, can’t remember names… Also, dragons are probly more intelligent than humans, so Drogon knew exactly what that “chair” and what it represented… I get you, and I was also imagining a bit more emotion from Jon, but I don’t think Jon would’ve survived the blast… And in that case, I don’t think GRRM would’ve gone that route… All I can say is the written ending will OBVIOUSLY be better. Anyone who watched the first few seasons after reading the books will know that.
I think that would be kinda cool, but I actually really liked what they did with Drogon, because of how intelligent it implied he was. He understood that all was not right with his mom, and although he was mad at Jon for killing her, he also got that what really killed her was her obsession with the Iron Throne above all else. The fact that he was chill enough to take out his anger and sorrow on the “correct” recipient was a bonus.
So basically you wanted to see John’s peen?
My grade-10 English teacher did tell me I had a long-winded way of getting to my point, without actually getting to my point :/
I do think the downside to having GRRM’s outline is that then you have to make everything fit the ending regardless of what’s better for the show. I’m not saying GRRM’s ending won’t be great if it’s ever written. But what works in a book, doesn’t always work on a show especially when you can’t get as much internal monologue going for a character like Bran. I almost wonder if D&D could have just written their own ending (assuming this does hew closely to GRRM’s plan), if it would have worked better or smoother. For example, I think the changes they made to Sansa’s story made her ending work much better than if she was just working behind the scenes in the Vale. It also felt the most fully formed. It was similar to the How I Met Your Mother ending issue — Knowing in Season 1 how the final Season was going to end (to the point where they filmed the kids’ reactions in Season 2) meant that then you had to get there even if your story surpassed that being relevant or what anyone wanted to see.
This guy gets it.So Drogon understands the complexities and disadvantage of geo-political dictatorships and melts the Iron Throne as a symbolic gesture to break the wheel, but he gives a Jon a pass on killing his Mommy?
And Grey worm is so ok with them killing his Queen he is just like someone will have to pay he lets Tyrion pick the new King and be the Hand and Jon gets punished by taking the black and living a life protecting the wall, which is no longer needed. And not fucking which he was already suppose to be doing when he fucked Ygritte and Dany, so that worked at great the first time. LOL!
And Sansa just gets to declare herself Queen of the North while the rest of the Kingdoms agree to be ruled by Bran “Hot Wheels” Stark and pay them taxes. Trash.
And Bran the Useless that could see the future and could have warged into Drogon to stop the massacre at King’s Landing and has no ability or will to rule Westroes is made King by a few Lords and Ladies and a few Randos that have no business picking a leader becasue most backed the Mad Queen, is made King? What the actual fuck!
GRRM only has himself to blame for this crap. Sure some of the broad strokes were has and Dany was always going to turn, but not all this crap could have been his ideas. At least I know I can skip the D&D Star Wars and any GOT prequels or sequels since HBO let this turd happened.
At least we get to find out what actually happens, when the books get released this Friday 😉
I told my buddy before it aired, Jon should kill Dany and when Drogon goes nuts, he full on Wargs him , white eyes and all. Cause we all know Targs are dragon wargs.
The last few seasons have been the CliffsNotes version basically jumping through all the big moments as fast as possible often short cutting the previous world building. GRRM’s books are more interesting between the big moments. The TV show basically became a spectacle rather than a GRRM character driven story.
CliffsNotes, Coles Notes, precise… yeah, sometimes at a grade 10 level :/
He had “an issue” with a chair because playing that game is what got her killed. She could have just stayed across the Narrow Sea and ruled her own empire. What I was hoping for, though, if dragons are supposed to be more intelligent than humans, was for Drogon to kill all the contenders, lay waste to Westeros, and create a dragon-run empire with humans as his slaves. Hatch a bunch more eggs, and you’re golden.
Because Jon is a Targ, that is why it didn’t aim at him is what I took away from it. I was thinking Jon would ride Drogon and take over after killing Dany.
I was shocked that didn’t happen
LAME
That’s funny because as it played out I asked my family if they thought Jon was fireproof. I thought the same thing was about to happen.
See, it’s also why I thought Bran said “Jon needs to be told”, as in Jon is the only (fire-proof) person who could get close enough to Dany to kill/stop her; no one else could have got that close.
“ Jon still alive, sitting clutching a now fallen Dany beside him, both on a massive iron puddle. Both naked. Both unsinged. Because!”That’s where I assumed they were heading with that scene. Alas…
I was team High Sparrow from the very beginning, so imagine my disappointment, yes?
bloody papists
Congratulations on supporting the one thing worse than absolute monarchy – theocracy
The High Sparrow was the one character who never killed anybody, sold his own possessions to feed the poor and tried to subject the aristocracy to the rule of law. So viewers hated him.
Well, there was that whole torture of those who did not agree with him thing.
Considering the torture we saw overseen by the Mountain or Ramsay, the treatment of prisoners was rather mild, doing no permanent damage to Cersei (though she kept her short hair afterward for some reason). And Cersei was able to get out of his custody by pretending to be penitent.
“Tell your mom it’s just a little bit of torture, Stan.”
that commenter is an idiot, the sparrows were pieces of shit
He also had people viciously tortured for *checks notes* being gay. So yeah, SUPER COOL guy!
That is pretty cool, I forgot about that. Awesome.
Loras did get the Seven Pointed Star carved in his head, but Lancel had the same thing willingly done when he joined. He was otherwise intact (until Cersei blew everyone up).
He was completely broken as a person and begged Margaery to do ANYTHING it took to save him. They obviously were doing more along the lines of physical and psychological torture offscreen, as we saw them doing to Cersei and Margaery.
Just goes to show that being a sanctimonious prick will make up for a lot of good works.
yeah cult leaders who get other people to do their dirty work so their sanctimonious hands remain clean while gaslighting and manipulating everyone around them are clearly the best leaders
His dirty work involved zero deaths as far as I could see, which puts him well ahead of basically every major character on the show.
My thought is, if he had reigned longer, would it had let to deaths? Holy wars and such?
Westeros has multiple religions in it, but I don’t think he ever acknowledged the others (perhaps because his concerns were limited to Kings Landing, where there are few Northmen, Ironborn or R’hllorites). I believe in Martin’s latest work he’s indicated that Baelor the Blessed (who famously ended the war with Dorne) wanted to launch a crusade against the North to convert them but died before it could happen.
As have many cults have done with a pretty twisted agenda.
I suppose comparing them to the characters on this show would make the Moonies & Scientologists look much better.
But wasn’t he full of shit? I thought it ended up that this was just a ruse to fool people into thinking he wasn’t just another player. I was disappointed because I hoped he was legit.
no, they hated him because he led a group of horrible religious fanatics.
I can beat that. Up until burning his own kid, I was all-in for Team Stannis. When your top advisor pops a shadow demon out of her hoo-hah to kill your rivals for you, you’ve got a leg up on the rest of the field… or at least, you SHOULD.
I’m just wondering what’s happening with the Sand Snakes? They couldn’t check in once in the finale?
IMO the real winner was either Gendry or Bronn. Both started the show as nothings and ended as proper Lords without really losing anyone they cared about or being defiled (although hopefully no one told Gendry about the Melisandre being 300 years old thing).
I’d add Podrick to that group.
Podrick the Ladyslayer.
But why the hell was Bronn the Master of Coin?
Near as I can tell it was because Highgarden was the only rich province left. In other words, he was master of coin because he had the most coin.Let’s not kid ourselves, though. Bronn was there for a curtain call.
But Jamie took all the gold Highgarden had.
The previous Master of Coin was Littlefinger. Bronn is a step up.
It’s the best position they could throw someone who doesn’t want to do anything, yet has to be there.IE: remember the king of flowers or w/e?Bronn is a great guy- but not the type to be smart enough to earn a place on the council normally- so they gave him a throwaway position.
Because he’s often the most clear-headed man in the room and is entirely ruthless, that is the perfect tax collector.
Same reason that Jeyne Poole’s role is taken over by Sansa in the show. Combining characters and doing fan service, essentially.
Gendry at least had the dubious advantage of being a king’s bastard. All Bronn had was his fighting skill, and the guts to risk his own life for Lannister gold.
Bronn in a cakewalkStarts with nothing – is a homeless drifter/sellswordEnds as Lord of High Garden, the richest remaining stronghold in the realm AND Master of Coin AND did it w/out having to fight (A) white walkers or (B) in the siege of Kings’ Landings.
It seemed like even they thought democracy was a stupid idea even though they were peasants. I guess feudalism only sucks if you’re a peasant.
“Hey, she didn’t look 300! If that’s what 300 years old looks like, I’m gettin’ myself a ruby!”
It’s weird, when I watched that throne room scene I thought that they had deliberately shot Danaerys in such a way as to make her seem more radiant and ethereal, as if to underscore her transition to full-on tyrant and her high-minded so-called idealism elevating her, in her own psyche, above the horrible reality of her actions – in contrast to Jon, who is pale, grubby, and literally and figuratively ashen-faced when he talks to her. Now, after watching this podcast, I realise that it was actually just poor green-screening. Damn. Still, I liked it. Maybe this could start a trend – bad green-screening as a conscious aesthetic choice?
“This shot is brilliant and should be shown in any film study class.”
Give the kid a break. He’s still working on in-camera effects with the 16mm he got from his uncle.
Tell you who didn’t win: Iron Bank and Golden Company. Yikes.6 kingdom oligarchy lasts under a year before the Greyjoys secede
Jon Snow won too as he still is alive. In reality, GreyWorm would have insta killed him the moment he found out he killed Dany and not imprisonned him.That was the writers letting him off the hook.
I was really hoping she was gonna kill Jon and then Arya would sweep in with a pack of dire wolves with Nymeria (of course) and they eat her and the dragon picks up Grey Worm and peaces the fuck out. But nobody asked for my script notes.
If Arya had killed Dany after killing the Night King, then it would have been unimaginable backlash from fans.Clearly the creators wanted to share the glory. Arya gets Night King, Jon gets Dany, and Cercie well killed by no one in particular…
and Cercie well killed by no one in particular..
With all of the call backs to the first season, I really thought Jaime was going to embrace Cercei, say “the things we do for love”, and jump out the window of the Red Keep with her. But then The Hound did that to his brother instead.
After hanging him on a hook offscreen for a murder literally nobody witnessed, not even Drogon, who flew off anyway.
Absolute cliché bollocks about never aiming to change the world and how everyone who tries gets corrupted so best just have a bunch of already super powerful people make all the decisions. A truly subversive fantasy story has a revolution succeeding and then dealing with what happens when the forces of good actually win. But of course that would take real creativity and imagination so instead we get a story written and directed by ascion of extreme wealth about slightly reforming the system and giving scions of extreme wealth a bit more power.
People’s positive reactions to the new small council go a long way in explaining why the Battle of Winterfell went down the way it did, and nobody you truly loved, was allowed to die. Sam, Brienne, Davos, Podrick, fuckkin Bronn(?)…Everybody got to achieve their dreams, and it was like the Fan Service Olympics. I’m in the minority, but I quite disliked that scene, which felt very “Marvel” for Game of Thrones. Other than that, I was ok with the finale.
I like Caity’s pitch for asking the Stark girls first before getting to Bran. I’d even add that because they saved humanity from the Night King, is why they get first offers at ruling before the other leaders. Though I think the Dragonpit meeting overall just seems to forget alot. (Someone should have gone to bat for Gendry’s legitimate claim.) One thing: Yara did speak up in the scene- she wanted justice against Jon Snow and Arya was like, “I wish a bitch would try.” Yara was relatively quiet after that.
Dying in battle is about the worst way to eliminate a character like Brienne that we’ve spent so much time with – if she dies at Winterfell, what was the point of her entire arc? She’s no different from the mass of faceless people we didn’t know. In a macro sense, focusing the story on the people who survived the great battle and would shape the future is better storytelling.In essence: these characters living through the battle is better than them dying in it.
I don’t really understand that argument, since Sansa did end up as a queen, and Arya clearly and openly had no interest in being tied down to noble life.
Yara = badass bitch, Ayra = bigger badass bitch.
I would watch the hell out of The Amazing Adventures of Yara & Arya.
Bastards usually don’t have a claim if they were not recognized by their father. Jon Snow was officially recognized as a son of Ned Stark. Gendry wasn’t acknowledged.
Something I haven’t seen discussed much – WHY DOES JON GET ARRESTED? There were no witnesses to the stabbing. He could have easily been like, “IDK, guys, Daenerys just flew away on a dragon. She’s done it before so…”
And then I realized it’s totally a Jon Snow move to confess to a crime that is not witnessed by anyone else. But, it also hits me that the central character with the shakiest writing and development in season 8 is not Daenerys – it’s Jon. His ambivalence, his moodiness, his vague stoicism, his possible defection to the Wildlings (?), none of that was built up AT ALL. Worst character in the show this season. Thoughts?
Jon has always been moody & vaguely stoic. I don’t think he “defected” to the Wildlings either. The Nights Watch opened up their gates to travel north into the woods, which is exactly the same thing that happened with those three rangers in the opening of the series.
And I choose to believe that Bran sent him to the Night’s Watch knowing exactly what would happen – that Jon would go North with the wildlings where he would be happier. That it was a “punishment” that satisfied those who wanted him dead and also a favor to his brother.
I still don’t think he’s a defector. The other Nights Watchmen would be obligated to kill him if that were the case.
The Night’s Watch was re-created to kill Wildlings, largely on Sansa’s behalf. Jon is doomed to die, as ignominiously as he lived. When he stabbed Daenerys, he affirmed that Olly was right to stab him.
But he gave that little smile back at the gate as it closed (and it’s worth nothing that those who left at the Opening of the series, the only survivor also defected after seeing a White Walker). I also think that everyone besides the unsullied knew it wasn’t the worst punishment especially with the North being free. Arguably, he could just go chill at Winterfell and unless Bran decided to start a war over it no one would care.
Why is there even a Nights Watch anymore? The Wildlings are seemingly allies now, the Night King is no more, The Starks are back as the true Guardians of the North, and how did the wall seemingly get rebuilt in a matter off weeks after is blue dragonfire meltdown?
I don’t think Eastwatch got rebuilt. We only saw Castle Black at the end, and that was never destroyed. Although it’s less important manning that castle since anyone can enter through the giant whole over to the east.
There really isn’t, as Tormund said “I guess we’re the Night’s Watch now”. No one let Gray Worm know that. They’ll go to Naath and die from those butterflies- I highly doubt they’d come back to Westeros. If they did, they might be arrested for war crimes. (I would hope.) Gray Worm was sort of a dick. He had no authority once Dani died. And Jon should have been the King because of rights of conquest but that’s not what he wanted. I do think he’ll be similar to Mance and a King of sorts beyond the wall. After all there was a rumor that Mance was Rhaegar. They point to to some good points but I’m not sure I buy it. He might be a Targ though. And now that the North is independent, Jon could conceivably go back to Winterfell anytime he wanted.
What war crimes, no quarter is commonly the rule for a city that refuses to surrender before the walls are breached.
They Lannister Army did surrender though. They dropped their swords, the bells rang.
The magic is broken, the wall will flow like a glacier and eventually melt. The Night’s Watch is Sansa’s declaration of endless war with the Wildlings.
Ended as it had begun. The circle complete.
I was wondering, how did those trees grow there? It seems like a place so cold you can have an ice wall would well past the tree line. On Earth, anywhere far enough north to have, say, an ice hotel doesn’t have any trees. I guess magic?
Have you not paid attention to his character?There is literally no limit to the stupid self-destructiveness of his decisions when it comes to doing what he thinks is right. I am absolutely certain he walked up to the first Unsullied he saw and confessed right there on the spot. That would be absolutely the most Jon Snow thing he could do.
I think that’s why Sansa would have been a much better leader than Jon. I think he’s unable to make tough decisions that sacrifice pure fairness/goodness/justice/loyalty for maybe arguably a greater good, or even survival. He’s able to make those choices sometimes as we saw in the last episode, but he would have had trouble making less-weighty decisions when he’s just doing run-of-the-mill governing.
Precisely. Evidence the meeting between him, Cersie and Danerys where he refused to tell even a simple lie even knowing the cost. Sansa is a good leader. I don’t really like her. She rubs me the wrong way. But I cannot dispute that she evolved into a very good leader.
Sansa would have been the Westeros equivalent of the Eisnerhower administration- all about pragmatical policy and incremental yet righteous change. Tyrion the wonkish centrist technocrat neo-liberal who would have angered both the pro Targ sides (the Iron Islands) and the progressive side (Dorne). Dany, of course, would have been the Stalinesque figure Westeros probably didn’t need
There is no sense in which the Eisenhower administration was “about” righteous but incremental change. The man picked Richard Nixon for his vice president! That alone tells you everything. Federalizing the National Guard to enforce court decisions was pretty much the minimal standard for decently executing the laws of the land, a constitutionally mandated duty. The fact that his fellow Republicans like Nixon and Reagan and Trump kept pioneering presidential lawlessness doesn’t make him a paragon.
I don’t get how Sansa managed grow so many new brain cells. If she was a clueless moron in the beginning, she should be a clueless moron now.
I actually think they would have made a great team: she’s the highly rational and pragmatic leader, which he could temper to make a bit more human. …Although rebuilding all this will require a very strong leader, so I’m not mad.
Probably one reason Jon said he didn’t want the throne. Had he remained King in the North and never bent the knee to Daenarys, Sansa probably still would have done most of the governing.
I have serious doubts about Sansa’s judgement. Her two major decisions for the North were not telling anyone about the Knights of the Vail (good thing Littlefinger showed up anyway), and not wanting Daenerys’s help fighting the others. So if we followed Sansa’s game plan the North dies. Twice.
Ab-so-fucking-lutely. Jon, after hearing Dany’s big speech with the word WINTERFELL loud and clear needed that pep talk from Tyrion to really get on board with stopping Dany? Dude, it might’ve been a different language, but is there any doubt she was screaming about conquering Winterfell? Use your brain, fella. After Drogon flew off, Jon should’ve run out into the hall Mac from IASIP style ‘GUYS, GUYS, I HAVE TERRIBLE NEWS…about what Drogon just did!’
“He flew off with Danerys! I tried to hold onto her with my knife, but he took that, too!’
Is Ned Stark telling Cersei that Stannis is righful heir… to her face… with the Kingsguard watching on the side lines…
jon learned from the best
“His ambivalence, his moodiness, his vague stoicism, his possible defection to the Wildlings (?), none of that was built up AT ALL.”
I’m genuinely curious if you watched any of the first seven seasons, at any point, based on this.
Perhaps it’s because of my memory of the Jon of the books, but I think the show failed to capture how this was motivated. Jon of the show is a weaksauce Hamlet, without the soliloquy. Jon in the book is a narrator with thoughts and explanations. I think that’s my beef. This season was ALL “show don’t tell” (as someone who loves dialogue, I hate how far this can go) and none of Jon’s relationships were actually explored. They were just shown. Boring.
Seems to me that’s more a critique of the technique than of the story, because whether we were shown or told over the course of the show, Jon’s moodiness, etc. was definitely built up all along rather than just this season.
If there are millions screaming that we were not prepared for Daeny’s turn, I’m saying that Jon pouting and sulking didn’t really give me clue of his motivation. The more I think on it, the more I realize that Jon was a pretty poor adaptation of the book’s character.
“His ambivalence, his moodiness, his vague stoicism, his possible defection to the Wildlings (?), none of that was built up AT ALL.” Genuine question… are you joking? Jon has FOREVER been moody, stoic, and caught between loyalties to the Night’s Watch and the Wildlings (among other groups). There was a whole season where Ygritte BEGGED him to become a Wildling and stay with her forever and he seriously considered it and wavered back and forth before siding with what he felt was his duty. I am struggling how you could seriously make such a post.
See my reply above. I get your point, but I still think Jon this season was… dull as dishwater and the books had it better. All of the “dramatic” points of Jon this season failed to land because he was like a blank canvas.
Ygritte said she knew he was still a crow, and everyone else is convinced that Ygritte was wise in the way of women and thus her word is more or less the word of God, whereas Jon Snow truly knows nothing because he’s the Dudley Do-Right of Westeros. So, no, pretty sure in universe Jon never wavered in his commitment, he just wished. Of course I’m tempted to think Ygritte didn’t know it all, but she was clumsily warning Jon that she would never let him go, because she’s loyal (and possessive too, though she probably wouldn’t admit that to herself.) The funny thing about Jon is that if you read the murder as preemptive because Sansa had already started fighting Daenerys (and Arya had blindly pledged her loyalty last season,) that means Jon thought he could become a true Stark by committing to Sansa. But, if he’s really a Stark, then he’s quite free to marry the woman he loves. Since Jon had already had a great deal of influence on Daenerys even as a new acquaintance, there was no reason to follow the self-serving “advice” of the monstrous Tyrion (copied from the monstrous Varys) and kill Daenerys right! this! second!
He wasn’t having an effect on moderating Dany. She nearly killed him in the street battle by bathing the streets in flames indiscriminately. When he tried to convince her in the throne room, she said that everyone else’s opinion on right and wrong did not count, meaning she would NEVER moderate her wishes to benefit other people. And not killing Dany would have been a disaster as she had announced earlier that day that they would be marching on the North (his home) to liberate it… from their own allies? She was completely off it at that point.
She did not announce she was going to attack the North. The Iron Bank and/or their slaver friends in Volantis is the likeliest. She was in Winterfell with superior forces and didn’t even “invite” Sansa to come see the execution of Cersei, much less arrest her. She had already listened to Jon about attacking cities when he was just an acquaintance. The notion that she wouldn’t listen to him when she was in love with him and they married is preposterous, justified only by the assumption that she was always mad. As in, liberating slaves by violence is mad like John Brown, and evil, and demonic, etc. As to not giving others a choice, Jon didn’t give the other members of the Night’s Watch a choice himself. When Olly and Thorne and others murdered him, they did exactly what he did to her, for the same reasons, defense of the old ways against the rebel who would overthrow them.
She gave a speech on the stairs that the war was not over. Now that they had “liberated” King’s Landing, they would also be “liberating” other places too. Now, someone who has object permanence skills might recall that the verb action that Dany actually did to King’s Landing was “destroy all the buildings and kill every person she or her troops could find, regardless of social status.” So to her, apparently that’s what the word “liberate” means. That’s horrifying, but it’s understood. She then announces that they will ALSO be liberating every other city! Starting with Winterfell! Which is under her allies’ control currently. So even the most generous reading of “destroy the leadership of said place, even if thousands of people have to die to finish the job” would still mean she planned to kill the Starks and roast their citizens because… reasons? Please describe what other way to take this, and reveal that you’re just trolling once and for all.
Object permanence skills? Your malice makes you stupid. She thanked them for giving her the seven kingdoms, which means “from Winterfell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea” is geography, describing the world which would be liberated. It is not a target list. Moreover, she liberated Astapor, Yunkai and Meeren, so no, liberating does not mean burning the city to the ground. Lastly of course, ringing bells is not surrendering, ringing bells and opening the gates is surrendering. Pretending otherwise is stupid too. You have nothing but your prejudice there is nothing more evil than revolution.
They couldn’t open the gates, the gates were exploded pre-surrender. Throwing down weapons is a pretty universal signal for surrender, which she decided WASN’T GOOD ENOUGH. And if she had targeted the army or leadership, that would make some vicious sense, don’t give them the opportunity to try a double cross. But she IGNORED both to go for civilian buildings and people.Go re-read the speech, I’m done with your facietousness on this point, it’s tiresome.
The popular theory is that he simply confessed. We have seen his stupidy
before about his “I can not tell a lie” attitude. Or simply, the guards
came in becasue of Dragon having a shit fit and torching the place and
saw Jon holding her body.
This I buy.
He learned nothing from what happened to Ned about always telling the truth. He’s just a colossal moron. Of course, so are all of us I guess for watching this crap show. Dany goes everywhere with guards, except for when the plot requires her to be stabbed.
He probably didn’t have time to clean up the huge pool of blood on the ground before the guards checked up on that dragon scream. And plus he was, seconds before, prepared for death, so it’s not like all of a sudden he’s plotting his future.
Even if it was a Jon Snow move, it should have been on screen. This was such an anemic episode, there is no possible editing rationale for not rolling his confession before the audience.
Agree. I’m now realizing there’s an incredible amount of missing scenes. I can almost bet that many were pitched in the writers’ room and that hoary bullshit of “less is more” and “show don’t tell” prevented necessary scenes, without which, the finale had no heart and possibly a lack of logic:Like:One of the Stark kids had to go to bat for Jon and not agree he’s getting exiled, right? (Arya probably) there’s no way I buy that they all agreed to this weird exile plan for the benefit of people who are ALL LEAVING WESTEROSFor all the buildup, the Iron Islands should have had at least a little postscriptSame for DorneWhy were we denied any explanation of what Jon was up to? Sure, we can guess but it’s not like a fascinating cliffhanger mystery – it’s one of three scenarios (resettlement of wildlings, join wildlings, or ranging)Any acknowledgment of the near certain massive civil unrest going on in the kingdom? (Given what they’ve all been through, with all the changes, of course there’s some chaos) It didn’t need much, but just a statement acknowledging what’s going on would helpAgain my guess is that many good ideas were pitched and shot down in the name of simplicity
The kindest thing that can now be said about this show is that its worst episodes are behind it. It’s just a that such a thing couldn’t be said until the very, very end.
Re: the question of why doesn’t Tyrion appear in the in-universe A Song of Ice and Fire.My theory is that despite the sexy title, they actually gave the job of writing this history to an economic historian maester. It’s the War of the Five Kings told through chapter after chapter of grain subsidies, tariff debates, and trade routes. The Cambridge Journal of Economic History raved “soporific, but essential”!
AV Club alumnus Todd Vanderwerff said it came off as a dig on GRRM, but his own most recent works are “histories” purporting to be written by maesters which have been purposefully made unreliable in parts. Within the novels Tyrion criticizes a commonly accepted work of history as being inaccurate and not making sense.
“It mentions Drogon burning down King’s Landing for about a paragraph in the prologue, but then spends sixteen chapters explaining what taxes and tariffs were affected by the destruction, and how the price of spices varied over the next five years.”
The last three chapters, written by Maester George, catalogue every dish ever eaten by every one of the five Kings during the War of the Five Kings.
“The spirited debate over whether Tommen’s eating of dinner leftovers at 2 AM constitutes a ‘meal’ or simply ‘a snack’, nor whether if a meal it is a separate one or simply a continuation of the dinner that produced said leftovers, is absolutely legendary to scholars seeking knowledge of both historical minutiae and the smell of their own flatulence.”
“History is divided on his edict that outlawed the growth and consumption of the beetroot vegetable.”
“Thou shalt only consume this ‘devil’s root’ if prescribed for thou glaucoma, or in thine good city of Denver.”
At first I kind of thought that was just a prank (of course Tyrion is mentioned, he was the Hand to like every one of the monarchs at some point), but come to think of it, it was Sam saying it and he has no sense of humor so never mind.
As someone who studied history, it’s not uncommon to find that the official histories from the middle ages, ignore people that we know were ultimately very important because whoever was writing them was trying to make someone look better. Tyrion was hand, but he also had a lot of not great decisions and working for people who were ultimately deposed. Not connecting the current Hand to King Joffrey is probably for the best, tbh.
that’s what I’ve also been telling people. an unreliable history book from that era is more the rule than the exception.
Add Sam to the list of huge winners, he got to be an Arch-Maester without even doing the training to become a regular maester.
Technically Tywin was Hand during the events of Season 2, and Tyrion was wearing the pin in his stead — it’s a significant plot point that Tyrion receives no credit for his successful defense of King’s Landing at Blackwater, even though Varys knows. The ASOIF history likely credits Tywin’s assault for turning the tide of the battle, and never mentions that Tyrion was the acting Hand.Everything with Tyrion’s trial probably wouldn’t warrant mention, since he’s apparently been cleared of Joffrey’s murder (I guess Jaime told everyone else what Olenna told him), although it’s somewhat implausible that Tyrion wouldn’t be mentioned as the initial suspect. They were making plays over in Essos that depicted Tyrion poisoning his nephew.I can buy that Tyrion’s actions as Dany’s Hand wouldn’t be mentioned, and it’s probably better for his legacy that it doesn’t. Every decision he made was disastrous! It’s possible that the maesters, out of respect for the current Hand of the King, chose to leave out Tyrion getting outsmarted by his siblings and an evil pirate at every turn, leading to Dany’s fleets and armies being decimated. Tyrion kind of participated in all the war crimes, and maybe Dany’s one-day reign of terror is something the Westerosi elite prefers to treat as the fault of one person who had a bad day.
In other words, the Westerosi version of George Lucas
It was a joke?
Assassins don’t “by definition have a boss”. Charles Guiteau was famously unemployed!I was surprised to hear where Caitlin worked previously. This is certainly a step up!
Of course they never work alone. You don’t know the old saying, “It takes two asses to make an assassin?” I heard that all the time as a kid.
“These two men conspired to murder our queen! We demand their punishment!”“OK.”“What will you do with Tyrion?”
“We’ll restore all his privileges and make him Hand of the King, the same position he held when he betrayed your queen, where he will be the most powerful person in the entire country except for me.”“That… doesn’t really seem like a punishment…”“Let’s see. Tyrion, what do you think?”“I… Er… Don’t want to be the Hand?”“See! He hates it.”“Fair enough. What about Jon?”“We’ll send him to join the Night’s Watch. Of course, since all the threats north of the Wall have been dealt with, the Night’s Watch is now pretty much just a group of people leading ordinary lives, except they’re in the North and they don’t have to pay taxes.”“Okay, sure. And you promise to not just completely go back on all this after my men and I leave this land forever?”“Totes McGotes, G-Dubs.”“Alright. You’ve got yourself a deal.”
If you consider that Grey Worm wants a punishment of some kind for Jon on the books but is more concerned with fulfilling his promise to Missandei and getting away from all these people he HATES now instead of starting another war, their acceptance seems to make sense.
Yeah, Grey Worm’s gonna be pissed when he gets that flyer in the mail advertising the new Butlin’s at the Wall.
Another Torgo I know would never have let that happen. He’d order Jon and Tyrion massaged to death, or at least a trial by full contact nightgown wrestling!
“We sentence you to die, at the age of eighty, with a belly full of wine and a girl’s mouth around your cock.”
Crime in Westeros suddenly rises exponentially!
This shot is the most beautiful shot in cinema… (Manos spreading his hands)
“I wish those hands of fate would just push him over!” I read “Growing Up With Manos” by Jackey Neyman Jones (the little girl who played Debbie). It’s an interesting look into the making of the movie, and what it was like working with Hal “We’ll fix it in the lab” Warren.
“They didn’t take the reservation option.”I’m pretty sure Davos offered them The Reach (which includes Highgarden). That’s literally the most valuable land in Westeros.
You know, as disappointing as the ending was I cant help but feel a bit of sympathy for D&D and the people making the show. It was always intended to be an adaptation GRRM just didn’t finish it. I think the last thing they wanted was to be in a position where they were creating huge swaths of original material to connect Martin’s vague outline of an ending.
The winner wasn’t Sansa, it was Tyrion. The real winner was GRRM and HBO because they laughed all the way to the bank. Sansa getting the north as an independent kingdom made no sense – Dorne and the rest wouldn’t want to be independent too? Plus I don’t see how what she’s experience could have grown that many brain cells – if she was an idiot before, and she was, that wouldn’t have changed. One of many things wrong with this finale. I’d say they did the best they could but we know they didn’t.
I had something to do that night and didn’t watch it. And haven’t felt like it since. I may not, since I read the spoilers without a care and after the rest of the season am not really interested in seeing how it plays out.I wouldn’t have guessed three years ago that I would feel completely indifferent about the GoT finale. But then I’m getting numb to most things steadily becoming worse since 2016, what’s one more.
Ive decided to settle on being ok with the final season. I have as many complaints as anyone else but I also love the show I don’t think the end is nearly as bad as the internet hyperbole machine would lead someone to believe. While they didn’t nail the landing I don’t think its butchered either. Most of the character beats make sense despite the funk way they got there.
Whenever I see video of Caitlin and Katie side by side they always strike me as something out of an SNL sketch about a certain kind blond dyed horn rimmed glasses wearing woman. Even the names make it work o_O.So that’s my contribution, I’m going to sit down now.
OK, so I know that was the last episode ever, but for future podcasts of any kind – if your audio editor is tempted to do a pseudo surround mix of your spoken audio ever again: don’t. Mix that shit down to mono. I had to re-pair my AirPods three times before I realised they weren’t broken.
Good lord, is this the standard American accent for adults now? Even the guy in this video had that neurotic/uptalk/vocal fry thing, but the women sound like they’re about to swallow their tongues.
“The Unsullied are not peaceful people. We will keep (the people of Naath) safe.”Uh, sure
“We will keep (the people of Naath) safe.”Uh, sure…Well, safe from any future opportunistic slavers. And it’s not like they’ll be raping anyone, or making any unwanted kids.
Now that the Unsullied are free people and sensitive lovers, the possibilities are endless. Except the kids.
Not everyone wants kids, yo.
Yo, I know it’s been a long time, but we were talking about a TV show that emphasizes legacy.
Really would have been something to see this last episode Daenarys for a longer period. People talk about this seasons bad writing but last season was just as bad and started the problems that got worse. Episode 5 and Beyond the wall were terrible except for spectacle. Daenarys should have stomped Cersei from the start and been in control and on the Iron Throne from the start of season 7. Events could have played the same and everything would have more substance. As much as i love Cersei i think keeping her around weakened so many other characters. Especially with how they utilized her this season. Was anybody else irritated that tyrion survived. Went from being my fave character to me not really caring if he lived. How was he not killed, considering ‘Mad Queen’ Danys mindset at this point. Also, i know Drogon was guarding her but no one not even Grey worm in her vicinity.