Things are getting messy behind-the-scenes on Apple’s Foundation show
High-profile screenwriter David S. Goyer has left his role as showrunner on the sci-fi series, apparently over budget woes
Aux News Foundation
AppleTV+’s big-budget, very glossy adaptation of Isaac Asimov’s galaxy-spanning Foundation books has reportedly gotten a bit too big budget of late. Hence news from THR today, which reports that high-profile Dark Knight screenwriter David S. Goyer has departed his role as showrunner for the Lee Pace show’s third season, after clashing with producers about costs.
Goyer will apparently stay on with the series, which tracks the slow fall of a galactic empire and the rise of a new power in its wake, but only as a writer, contributing scripts without actually being on location for the show’s shooting in Prague. He’ll be replaced in those duties by former Skydance TV president Bill Bost, who’ll presumably be keeping a much tighter hand on costs. (Notably, the show’s line producer, whose job typically involves keeping a production under budget, has also been replaced.)
Given that roughly half of its third season had already been shot before last summer’s strikes shut down production, it’s not clear how much this penny-pinching is going to affect what Foundation fans actually see on the screen when the season finally arrives. (No date for season 3 has been set just yet.) It’s really more interesting as a bellweather of the fact that the “throw a billion dollars at the wall to make streaming work, no matter what” era of online TV might well and truly be over: Apple has typically been one of the deepest pocketbooks in streaming, basically allocating as much of its functionally infinite tech cash as necessary to get a foothold in the industry. So if even they’re getting money conscious, the boom might very well be over. For now, Foundation fans can content themselves with the knowledge that Goyer’s writing will still help power the series—even if some of his more galactic ambitions have now been stymied.
57 Comments
Replacing a creative with a bean counter is not encouraging.
No, that spells long term problems in all sorts of areas, unless the bean counter is a good and experienced creative himself.
He’s only got a handful of EP credits, some on decent-ish shows.https://m.imdb.com/name/nm4196423/Maybe he was involved creatively, but since he has no actual producer/writer/director credits, I don’t think so.
Then like you said, not encouraging. Unless he accepts a good team to back him so that he doesn’t plunge things into mediocrity.
It’s a good show. Not a great show, but a good show. The writing is fine for the most part, some very good moments, some not so.
I don’t see tightening the budget is going to change much of that. It might not look as good at times, but as long as they can keep Jane Espenson then it should be ok.
Also, having music by Bear McCreary automatically makes any show better.
It’s a great show.
Is it faithful to the original trilogy, or does it bring in material from later books, or is it more, ah, “inspired” by Asimov’s writings? It’s been a long, long time since I’ve read them, but my memory of the Foundation trilogy was that only the parts where the Mule played a major role seemed readily filmable.
As of the end of Season 2, the Mule has appeared in psychic visions. He’ll probably play a bigger role in Season 3 it seems. The show is more “inspired by Asimov,” I’d say. The first books definitely show their age, written in the good old patriarchy days. You’ve got white guys traveling around the galaxy in their personal spaceships while the women cook the meals, etc. That’s only a slight exaggeration. They’ve turned at least two of the formerly white male characters into women of color, and also strayed away from science fiction and philosophy into more space magic stuff. It is worth watching though!
The first books definitely show their age, written in the good old patriarchy days. You’ve got white guys traveling around the galaxy in their personal spaceships while the women cook the meals, etc. That’s only a slight exaggeration.And that’s not even what I was referring to when saying the books didn’t seem terribly filmable; at least that sort of thing is easy to correct in an adaptation.So it’s closer than I, Robot was to its ostensible source, then? It seems like they’ve managed a good compromise between being faithful to the books and telling a story that’s relevant to today’s audience in a way that’s cinematic.
Well, no I, Robot was actually way more unfaithful to the source than this, which does make some efforts at very vaguely, generally sort of following the overall plot & concept of the original (there’s still an Empire, Hari Seldon has still predicted its downfall via statistical pseudoscience, and has founded a Foundation with the same publicly-avowed reason to exist). Unlike I, Robot’s “just use the name & tack it onto some other sci-fi story, maybe throw in a couple of character names” total replacement method.
My earlier comment wasn’t clear enough, but yes, I meant to say that in terms of faithfulness to Asimov’s writing, Foundation seems comfortably ahead of I, Robot, which just takes the Three Laws, a few character/company names, and maybe a couple of glancing similarities to a couple of Asimov’s robot stories in some plot developments.I can still enjoy I, Robot, I just enjoy it more if I ignore the title and any purported connection to Asimov’s collection.
Why do you assume it’s white guys flying around? Race of the characters is pretty much never explicitly mentioned in the books. And yes, many of the institutions in the books, especially the ones that are part of the falling empire, are pretty patriarchal, but that’s more a sign of the time more than an indictment of Asimov, and in fact many of his female characters wouldn’t fit into the categories of the time. Probably a third to half of the most important characters are female, especially in second half of the trilogy. Though they sometimes, but not always, might start out seeming to fit neatly into contemporary female roles, quite a few of these gender roles are actually cover for spying inside societies described as anachronistic. Amd many female characters they have huge impact on the outcome of the story. Shit, he even wrote one of the later hero roles to be a very intelligent and science-minded teenage girl, which was incredibly rare for the time.
I haven’t read the books, but from what I’ve heard it’s more inspired by them than a direct adaptation. The Mule has only been briefly introduced in season 2, setting him up as probably the big bad of season 3.
Still got some interesting concepts, and I’ve enjoyed it more than the adaptation of Wheel of Time, but it’s a far cry from the platinum standard of TV sci-fi adaptations: The Expanse.
The Mule doesn’t show up until halfway through book two of the trilogy, so that actually tracks.
I’d say that it’s about as faithful as it could be while still being filmable and having, like, the same lead actors over multiple episodes and seasons that span decades. For example, in the books The Galactic Empire was very closely modeled on the Roman Empire, with a series of Emperors across the centuries. In the show, “Empire” is a genetic dynasty, with all Emperors being clones of Cleon 1. That serves a couple of purposes. It literalizes how the Empire has grown stagnant and also lets them keep Lee Pace in the role no matter how many decades pass in the show’s continuity.
“Inspired” in the most extreme use of that word. Some characters are similar. Main, over-arching plot vaguely similar. But mostly totally, totally different. Which is fair, since the trilogy as written is pretty much unfilmable…lots and lots of people sitting around talking, with very little action. I love the books, and think the show is pretty meh.
Still more faithful than I, Robot.
There’s that.Wish they had skipped that completely, and made a movie/movies of the Elijah Bailey novels.
If you’re going to hire a decent score writer, it better be Bear McCreary or Dan Romer.
*Lorne Balfe punches through straw boater*
Lorne Balfe is a frustrating composer to me, or at least the gigs he gets are frustrating.
For example, why is a big budget Hollywood movie like Argylle mainly scored with virtual orchestras? Did they not want to spend any of the 200 million dollars on a real one? Or did Balfe just prefer to do it that way? Or did the director prefer the sound? The result was.. underwhelming.
And why does his music for the Wheel of Time series sound so.. new age-y. He got the right sound for His Dark Materials, but Wheel of Time deserves something a bit more Romantic and high fantasy.
He’s like who you hire when you can’t get Ramin Djawadi.
Honestly I never felt like the budget really made it to the screen entirely, and it felt like an excellent Sci-Fi channel presentation overall, so I don’t think the lower budget will hit too hard
Lee Pace’s performance is what has kept me watching. The story has been fine, if a little all over the place (likely follows the books, but I haven’t read them). Reminds me of an RPG a lot of the time, but the kind where there’s so many side quests the main quest gets a little lost.
I’m in the middle of the first book and the show doesn’t actually follow the book that much. The whole Cleon Emperor thing was completely made up for the show. If you look at the Reddit threads about the differences, those nerds are really pissed about the major changes, but I think the changes work for a TV adaptation so far.
Cool thanks for the info—if I’m really into something I’ll usually research and see what the differences are and if I think something will be worth reading, but I have a hard time reading dense science fiction (had the same issue with Dune) so I don’t usually bother as I’ve found I don’t care much about differences in that medium in particular. I think the show mostly works, but can really feel “all over the place” with so many story lines and time jumps and what not. Lee Pace’s performance has been magnificent, though, and really is the main reason I watch. Science Fiction nerds (or the “OG nerds, as I like to call them”) have always been nuts about changes to their favorite things. I’m a comic nerd, but have always fully understood that things that work in one medium don’t always translate to another. So long as it’s not a totally stupid change then I generally don’t have an issue with it (for instance, I didn’t think the Watchmen movie worked very well, mostly because Snyder didn’t seem to really ‘get’ the source material—BUT I did like the change to the ending and genuinely thought it was better thought-out than the comic series ending).
I swear, if they replace Lee Pace’s eyebrow stylist, I’m going to be pissed.
…can they afford to keep Cara Delevigne on, but?
If they replace ANYTHING related to Lee Pace, there will be riots.
First sign of change: All outdoor shots will now be filmed in front of any business contributing at least one dish to the catering tent. Shots in ‘space’ will simply be shot at night with no lighting.
“Shots in ‘space’ will simply be shot at night with no lighting.”GOT has an app for that.
It’s still nice to see that some networks are willing to renew shows.
I prefer it when they kill underperforming dreck, but that’s just me.
At least initially…. a renew as we’ve seen doesn’t always equal continuous quality, support, etc.
Tightening of the budget could also be because it’s season 3 of a show that never really hit big and probably won’t at this point.
100% correct.
Who is this show going to attract in its 3rd season???
More like David iS Goner!
Booooooo! (you get a star anyways).
Ok, I’ll just stay on topic in terms of the production quality of the show instead of how I feel of the show overall. The show utilized the budget to have an impressive production quality. The practical effects, CGI effects, scenes shot on location, and scenes on set were definitely high quality enough to feel refreshing and pretty believable that you’re on different alien worlds.Now the fact that they want to cut back on the budget is understandable, but could just result in the show tanking. They may be satisfied with the numbers concerning the budget, but then be very unsatisfied on the numbers in terms of viewership. Maybe their long term goal is to cancel the show and this was their way of saying end season 3 with closure and not a cliffhanger. All I know is, I am reminded of Altered Carbon Season 1 and season 2. I feel it’s best to imagine season 2 doesn’t exist. One glaring difference between both seasons is that you could tell right away just how low the production quality looked in comparison to season 1. It was one of the criticism from fans of the show that turned them off. Such a difference could be a big enough distraction to turn off viewers with Foundation. To those who enjoy the show or enjoy it enough, they will notice cheap quality due to budget cuts and then not care so much if the show gets renewed or cancelled. It’ll go from impressive and refreshing to typical standard Canadian location for use involving any show and/or movie involving sci fi. I think Foundation is good enough for two more seasons. But if season 3 ends up to be on the same level as Altered Carbon season 2, then it wouldn’t sadden me if it were to be cancelled after the 3rd season.
Well Altered Carbon season 1 was a pretty faithful adaptation of Altered Carbon book 1.
However the writing for season 2 was all over the place, it took some ideas from the third book but it managed to ruin those as well.
Not sure why they didn’t continue recreating each book with each season (tho the second book was a complete departure of that the first one was)
Well talking about Altered Carbon, I’ll just pretend season 2 never got made. The ending to season 1 was perfect in terms of a noir ending. The main story was wrapped up. And the protagonist sets off to unknown adventures with the hopes of someday finding his girl. Ambiguous enough leaving you wanting for more, and yet satisfying enough as a series finale. I actually enjoy the anime movie more than season 2 and treat Altered Carbon: Resleeved as episode 0.
Yep, I agree the Foundations problem is a bit like the season 2 of the AC. The point should be the plot, not pretty CGI. There was decent plotlines in the mess too (especially in season 2), but I think it was just too much of a mess.On the other hand I would have really liked to see a retro-futuristic take on the matter. So almost carbon copy of the book, with shiny steel everything, nuklear everything and weird tech. And of course old guys discussing stuff and drinking cognac.
The writers and SAG strike has halted the entire industry, and with an impending iatse strike on the horizon, producers (studios) aren’t interested in going crazy with budget, especially if they have to shut down production in a few months. He came back in December after the strike to possibly new policies that affect his contract and how much cool stuff they’re willing to pay for, so he was probably like, fuck it, i’m out.
As I said, budget cuts are understandable. Just the quality of the show in terms of it’s appearance may have an unintended result of turning off viewers. I’ll just do the wait and see approach.
Thing with Altered Carbon is that the books get worse as they dig go on too.
This is giving me deja vu… The last time this happened Bryan Fuller and Michael Green walked away from American Gods after 1 season because of budget issues, and we all know how that turned out. 🙇
As much as I love the work of Bryan Fuller (scandal noted), he was already $30 million over budget for Season 1 and asked for even more for Season 2. You can’t ask for that kind of money on freaking Starz. I don’t understand why Fuller never tried his luck at a place like HBO or Apple who could give him the budgets he needs instead of NBC and Starz.
(your note in brackets is the answer)
Well, he tried his luck on the reboot of Amazing Stories, and left over creative differences. His reboot was aiming at gritty and edgy, while Spielberg and Apple had in mind something that even kids could watch, like the original.
Yeah I’ve ALWAYS loved his work, but the fact that there hasn’t been more of it makes me think he might be one of those creatives that’s has a reputation of being difficult to work with because there’s no compromise to his vision… He’s supposed to be doing a reboot/prequel Friday the 13th series with A24 for Peacock called “Crystal Lake” that was given a straight to series order back in Oct ‘22 but then that scandal happened and there hasn’t been any news since… Which btw, whatever happened to that law suit?
I feel like no budget could match Fuller’s aesthetics, he has kind of gone through to a whole other type of storytelling where style is substance (yet there is substance behind the style). Unfortunately, like Terry Gilliam movies, that ain’t cheap. I don’t know how the heck Crystal Lake isn’t going to suck but hopefully going back to 70s aesthetics he can’t spend too much of a budget on yellow short shorts.
Considering I only watched the first two episodes of season 2 I can only assume it stayed as bad as those episodes, or got worse.
Still showrunner:While sources say this means Goyer is effectively no longer serving as showrunner, a representative for the production says he will retain that title (contrary to an earlier version of this story).
Sounds to me more like he was fired from his role by the president and then replaced by the president himself, in order to get the budget in check.
I think it might have been better show with smaller budget. It’s a bit of a mess as it is. I didn’t like much the first season, I wanted old guys drinking cognac in long jackets and discussing stuff. Along the lines of the books. But second season was a bit more interesting altough too messy. The Demerzel plotline was getting good.I kinda hope good scifi (not counting Marvel crap to this) get’s more traction. There’s tons of fantastic book and series waiting to get done. I just hope they are done intelligently and respecting the material. A bit like Expanse.
They could drop two thirds of the plotlines and just leave Lee Pace chewing the scene.
Well, things have been messy on screen since the get-go, so no real surprise here.