Arrowverse co-creator Marc Guggenheim laments James Gunn’s apathy toward The CW’s superhero shows
One of the architects of the Crisis On Infinite Earths adaptation says it hasn't led to any other gigs
Aux News Marc Guggenheim
When James Gunn announced the ambitious slate of projects that he and fellow DC Studios co-head Peter Safran were developing for their new era of comic book movies, the The Suicide Squad director noted that previous run of DC Comics adaptations were all disjointed and confusing—and he specifically referenced The CW’s Arrowverse as an example of this alongside “the Joss Whedon Justice League” and the Snyderverse as distinct things. (Though it’s worth noting, once again, that it is Arrowverse/Snyderverse canon that the movie version of the Flash came up with that name after meeting The CW version of the Flash.)
If that seems like an overly casual dismissal of everything that the Arrowverse accomplished from the premiere of Arrow to the upcoming end of The Flash 10 years later, then it definitely seems even more like that after reading what Arrowverrse producer Marc Guggenheim has to say about James Gunn (via Entertainment Weekly). As part of his email newsletter, Gugenheim says that a friend once told him that his phone would be “ringing off the hook” after he and the rest of the Arrowverse team successfully pulled off their massive Crisis On Infinite Earths crossover (an adaptation of the iconic comic book event that brought together nearly every DC TV show ever and a handful of DC movies as well), but, in reality, that hasn’t happened.
“I spent every ounce of capital I’d amassed in developing DC Comics-related shows for Warner Bros. over an eight-year period.” Guggenheim says, “I called in every favor. I used every chit. I burned every bridge. I even spent $10,000 of my own money,” but he adds that “the Arrowverse hasn’t led to any other gigs.” So, “at least on a career level,” he worries that he just wasted his time on it.
What brought all of this on, apparently, was James Gunn’s announcements about the future of DC Studios and that he had assembled a writers room to sketch out what that will look like. Guggenheim says he’s “not particularly surprised” that he wasn’t invited to be a part of that, but he does add that he would’ve appreciated getting a call at least. “Not a job, mind you. A meeting. A conversation. A small recognition of what I’d tried to contribute to the grand tapestry that is the DC Universe. I’d only spent nine years toiling in that vineyard, after all.”
Guggenheim chalks it all up to the way writers are treated in general, noting that it’s “grown all too commonplace recently that the loyalty writers devote to studios is not returned in kind. And those are the good situations.”
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“… grown all too commonplace recently that the loyalty [workers] devote to [employment] is not returned in kind.”Lol, “recently”.Dude has my sympathies, but this has been apparent to that’s worked in a cubicle farm since The ‘80s knows this. So forty years now?Creatives will *never* get their due.
Weird that it never occured to him its because his writing is mediocre at best and rooted in the last century, while prestige tv happened around him.Not that I am saying the DC movies are well written by any stretch of the imagination, just that if you want to improve, you don’t look to “22 episodes a season” showrunners to fix it
A lot of talented people are out of work now due to the CW’s decision to end all the ArrowVerse shows, which generally had a great run. I don’t know why you would blame James Gunn for that. You don’t hear the kids from Stargirl complaining about it, as great a trajectory as that show was on. Time to move on to the next thing
I wouldn’t “blame” Gunn, but I would question his and Safran’s decision to apparently not approach anyone involved with the Arrowverse. I’ve said it before, but even if you thought the writing for all of the shows was terrible, what they accomplished – an interconnected comic book universe culminating in a crossover that ties movies and shows spanning decades together – on a network television budget and schedule for a CW audience is nothing short of impressive. It doesn’t entitle Greg Berlanti or Guggenheim to anything, but shit. Pick their brain.
Dude, you were responsible for a bunch of the worst things about the whole Arrowverse. Sit down.
the The Suicide Squad director noted that previous run of DC
Comics adaptations were all disjointed and confusing—and he specifically
referenced The CW’s Arrowverse as an example of this alongside “the
Joss Whedon Justice League” and the Snyderverse as distinct thingsGunn wasn’t dismissing the CW shows, he just pointed out that there are many different universes in DC media and his goal is to unify them. And he has a point – even on the CW, Superman & Lois are not in the same continuity as Supergirl. I enjoyed the Arrowverse for what it was, but it’s completely understandable for Gunn to want fresh eyes on the next decade’s worth of DC projects.
Except, he isn’t totally unifying them.DC Elseworlds is going to exist so stuff like The Batman can continue to make money for WB.So he didn’t have to sleight them.Also probably isn’t a good look (to some) that the stuff mostly likely to make it to the new DCU are the things him and the Co-CEO produced (Peacemaker & Shazam).
Except he didn’t really “sleight” them, Gunn stated that pre-existing productions won’t be a part of his projects’ continuity.
Those CW shows sucked. It was like watching Beverly Hills 90210 except sometimes the characters would throw on costumes.Putting that aside, he’s had other work and has multiple projects in the works, including another comic book property. Not sure what he thinks this public tantrum is going to accomplish, but it’s a bad look for a LOT of reasons.
Seconded. The soap opera stuff needs to be the filler in between superhero stuff, not the other way around.
They were on the CW. There’s only so much superhero stuff you can do in eight days with half the budget of an episode of Law & Order while chasing teenagers’ eyeballs.
In an era where more and more shows have dropped to 12 or less episodes a season, churning out so many filler episodes and reused plotlines is a hangover from 20 years ago and not one to be respected
No one is respecting it. But network television doesn’t work like streaming, or even cable television. They have to adhere to specific limitations and appease multiple entities that “prestige television” writers often don’t have to. Even something like a season being 12 episodes instead 22 isn’t typically up to the writers. And in spite of all of those limitations, Marc Guggenheim and Greg Berlanti created something that was often enjoyable, especially when it didn’t have the competition it does now. I’m more than okay with the CW shows ending. Shows like Peacemaker and Doom Patrol are simply a lot more engaging. It’s just kind of insulting to suggest that Guggenheim is only capable of writing 22-episode season shows.
Apparently, there’s only so much plot they could afford as well. The whole “Barry breaks something, spends next season fixing it, then breaks something else, rinse repeat” got old real quick.
What’s funny is that the main demographic of these ended up being people over 58.https://www.cbr.com/the-cw-average-viewer-age-older-than-believed/
I liked many of the Arrowverse shows. I did not like Crisis on Infinite Earths. I thought that was kind of a mess.
I loved Crisis. It was all fan-service, it didn’t have to make sense. It was just cool seeing all of those characters from different corners of DC media come together.
I have never witnessed so many superheroes experiencing sudden doubt about themselves and needing someone to give them an entirely vague but impassioned speech that instantly resolves that doubt, as I have in a CW crossover event.
Word.
It was very bad, boring, and dull, in ways that had nothing to do with the limited budget. They had a fun, scenery-chewing Lex Luthor, who could have used magic powers to pit the heroes against each other. Instead, Lex stole magic powers… to make himself one of the heroes. Talk about a failure of imagination.
So dull. So much exposition. So much speechifying.And, for some reason, if I remember correctly, they didn’t use the few Legends that they wanted to pay to join in the usual Legends universe but from an adjacent one, which still seems random (but maybe there was a reason I don’t remember).
Yeah, maybe his phone would’ve been ringing off the hook after Crisis if they had actually executed it well instead of what we ended up with.
I feel like ignoring the Arrowverse completely isn’t just disappointing for people who liked the Arrowverse, but also because it’s the one time a live-action DC universe actually worked. Sure, it wasn’t perfect, but they knew how to piece together that weirdo puzzle better than anyone before or since.I feel like if you want to get a new DC live-action shared universe going that lets every part of it reach its strengths while still being part of a greater world for when that helps, those are exactly the guys you wanna call! Nobody else has managed to put Superman in a shared universe without him dominating, or a Batman equivalent in a way that lets him stand alongside stronger people, or a Flash… y’know, that worked, ever.
I have mixed feelings on Guggenheim (has written some pretty fun comics, did some great stuff in Arrowverse, but also responsible for some plot cancers) and the Arrowverse (Arrow Season 2 is still amazing television, but 20 episode seasons and CW drama is eventually exhausting), but the entire CW DC world is miles better than the DCEU.Yes, there is filler and teen drama filling all the cracks of these shows, but they understand how comic books work. The understand the characters (maybe not Ollie). The Superman you see in Superman & Lois is the essence of Superman we’ve seen for decades. The Superman you see in the DCEU is not.
Hell, I would argue that ‘teen drama’ is the RIGHT way to make a comic book adaptation. Like it or not, comics have a lot in common with soaps, so a lot of the big drama and emotions actually fit really well.
Comics are a soap opera!
The arrowverse was coming to an end of its own volition and lack of interest over time. You can still go back and watch those shows they still exist. They’re just not part of a specific reboot continuity. They want a fresh start and some of the stuff they’re moving on from worked and some didn’t. unless one only saw value in the arrow verse once it acknowledged the Snyder DCU, this was kind of always the case anyways. And the DC universe never acknowledged them back.
Calling The CW’s interconnected DC TV shows the Arrowverse is like calling the MCU the Iron Manverse. They’re called the Beeboverse now, Grodd damn it!
I do think that the absence of phone calls may have something to do with the fact that there have been consistent whispers of Marc Guggenheim treating female castmembers and creatives like garbage over such a long time that even I, as an Australian nobody, have heard direct reports of his prickishness from people who have worked with him. I loved Arrow to bits. But, on the list of creatives to borrow from that show, Guggenheim would be right at the bottom.
Did this dude not get paid or something? He’s talking like he was some intern toiling away for next to nothing in the hopes that these shows would lead to better gigs…
Feige should hire him for Disney+ MCU, since their version cost more but with the same mess as first season LoT and boring as the middle season of the Flash.
I would like to see a short season of Gugenheim’s series. Since he got some interesting idea but had to stretch the story due to network requirement.
“As part of his email newsletter, Gugenheim says that a friend once told him that his phone would be “ringing off the hook”….but, in reality, that hasn’t happened.”i understand Marc’s point to an extent, but centering it around a friends interpretation of how Hollywood would react to a crossover event is odd. i mean, a lot of things my friends thought would happen havent. I mean they’re not bringing in the netflix Daredevil show runner into his MCU show. I don’t know if he’s upset about it, but not expecting to be involved in every iteration going forward seems reasonable.
Did Gunn say that the Arrowverse and Synderverse invdividually were disjointed and confusing, or did he say that it was disjointed and confusing that the Arrowverse and Snyderverse existed simultaneously, while also having the Gunn movies and Joker and The Batman all existing separately from one another? Cause the latter is very true. And my reading of his comments.