David Cross talks his new special and pretending not to cry doing stand-up post-COVID
With the arrival of I'm From The Future, the comedian reflects on the end of "selling out" and the worrying trend of ignoring context
Aux Features David Cross
David Cross has been working regularly as a stand-up comic for more than 30 years. All through his time as a writer on The Ben Stiller Show, his rise to prominence with Bob Odenkirk on HBO’s Mr. Show, his stint as Tobias Fünke on Arrested Development, his three seasons on The Increasingly Poor Decisions Of Todd Margaret, and numerous other series and films, Cross has consistently performed in clubs, bars, and theaters. That is, until the pandemic, when he found himself unable to perform for the longest stretch of his adult life.
Luckily, Cross returns without missing a beat in I’m From The Future, his new stand-up special premiering Saturday, February 12. The show, which will livestream via his website and on demand thereafter, finds Cross returning to his signature themes: Politics, religion, dark-laced absurdism, and the idiosyncratic weirdness he brings to it all.
Because we’ve spoken to Cross for nearly every comedy special he’s done, it seemed apropos to catch up again. Over the course of two days (Cross kindly didn’t want to end our conversation in the middle of a thoughtful discussion, so he called back a day later to continue the chat), he held court on creating a special from scratch, the dismaying direction of popular discourse, and getting choked up during his post-lockdown return to stand-up—not that he wanted to admit it at the time.
The A.V. Club: Prepping for this interview, Pavement’s reissue of Terror Twilight came on—like 45 tracks of outtakes and demos and all that kind of stuff—
David Cross: What does a Pavement demo sound like? [Laughs.] A lot like a Pavement song. Like early Pavement demos, I imagine just sound a lot like Pavement.
AVC: It made me think, though—you’ve done tour documentaries in the past. But would you ever consider doing a warts-and-all reveal doc, where you show your process working out bits?
DC: Well, I kind of did that, reluctantly. I’ve heard really positive things about the end result. Do you know Robert Milazzo? He teaches classes. He has podcasts. He’s a bit of a historian and critic and filmmaker, etc. He’s a really cool dude. Among other things that he does, he has this thing called Assembly, and I was the second season of that. The whole premise is, he’s going through the process, really from the very beginning to the end. And I was reluctant at first just because, I don’t know, I’m just not comfortable with somebody following me through that part of the process [laughs], but I know Robert is a good guy and certainly means well.
So I started to get a set ready and then the pandemic happened and he had to really alter it so that he wasn’t sitting on the same stuff for three or four years or whatever. So I know that’s out there, and I haven’t listened to it—I will someday, it just makes me a little uncomfortable. But I’ve heard really, really good things about it in the sense that it’s an interesting, edifying thing where you, the listener, is learning. It’s not some kind of narcissistic, ego-driven thing. I’ve heard good things. So there you go.
AVC: It’s interesting, right? With other people, you kind of want to see how the sausage gets made, and yet, it’s a very uncomfortable thought, letting people see a first draft, so to speak.
DC: Right? I guess if everything’s edited down… I think any kind of artistic endeavor is hampered by self-consciousness or, you know, an awareness of this other thing, whether it’s benign or not. And I don’t know, I was kind of afraid of that a little bit, you know? And just knowing myself, like, oh, I’d have to speak to it, and it would just somehow alter what I was trying to do.
AVC: Politics has always been a big part of your arsenal. After all this time, when you’re developing a bit on politics, does it feel like tapping a certain vein versus other topics? Or is it all just part of wherever your brain goes? You’re just following intuition, regardless of topic?
DC: Oh no, it’s all wherever my brain goes. Yeah, it’s definitely the latter. And you know, it’s it’s not because of us that that chunk of material up front is is political per se. It’s been turned into that. It doesn’t feel political to me, even though it is and has unfortunately become so. But if you asked me, two weeks from now, if we were at a bar and you were like, list your political bits, I never would even think about that stuff. There’s one reference to right wing people who are dying of COVID. But outside of that, it doesn’t feel political to me, even though, yes, it is, certainly the media presents it that way. But when I was talking about it, it didn’t feel like that. There’s definitely an us-and-them quality to it. But that could easily apply to atheists and, you know, observant Orthodox Jews or atheists and Catholics or whatever the us-and-them thing is. But it doesn’t seem political to me.
AVC: Do you find that your audience expects you to tackle certain things?
DC: Oh, for sure. The whole thing is evolving. It grows as my audience ages with me, and then younger people are made aware of me and want to check my stuff out or like it. But I learned probably three specials ago, there’s a faction of people, like, “Stop talking about religion and politics!” And then there are some people who are like, “You should talk more about religion and politics!” And then most of the people, 75 percent, are just copacetic with the set. They kind of come knowing I’m going to do a little bit of this, a little bit that, that’s that’s how it seems.
One thing I’ve said throughout my career, at least as the body of stand-up work has grown—and I was just talking to somebody about this yesterday who said something like, “You’re a political comedian”—and I’ve been saying this for a long time: I’m not a political comic. I am a comic who talks about politics. And I think sometimes because of the tone and the kind of harshness of what I do, it’s not easy stuff—outside of shitting in Trump’s mouth, that was easy—but outside of that bit, my theory is that it feels like it’s longer [laughs]. They were like, “I saw you and you did an hour and 20 minutes and an hour was political,” and I’m like, “No, I looked.” When I’m sequencing the stuff and when I am editing it and putting it together, I try for a third, a third, a third: a third political, religious, all lumped in that same category; and a third anecdotal stuff, and a third silly, goofy, stupid shit. And that’s my recipe. I’ve been following it for a long time, but I know that for a lot of people, even though it’s just a third of the set, it’s like, you know, “You get up there and you talk about politics,” I think that’s part of it.
AVC: Maybe the agent-provocateur role you sometimes adopt on stage contributes to people seeing you as a political comic. Because you’ve always had this idiosyncratic material. The Rickey Henderson bit is literally right in the middle of Shut Up, You Fucking Baby. Your last special had the great “couple’s colonic” story. You mentioned your third-third-third ratio. Do you find that sometimes when you’re sequencing, you’re like, “but this bit’s so good, what if it’s 50-20-30 this time?”
DC: It’s not a hard rule. I don’t mean to imply I’m there with a timer and I’m going, “OK, time’s up. Let’s cut the bit there.” I mean, it’s really about the feeling more than anything. And perhaps you and I or myself and somebody else in the audience might slightly disagree on, “Well, that seemed political.” And I’m like, “Eh, that’s not really political. I’m just talking about, you know, Orthodox Jewish people or whatever.” But it’s really about the feeling, and, you know, when I do these shows, when I’m putting these sets together, I have a whole process which works for me and it’s really enjoyable and there’s kind of three phases to it. And when I get to the last phase, when I’ve pretty much got all the material—this is going to be the tour, this is the set—and I ask the audience questions those last five, six, seven, eight shows that I do, like, “Did it feel like too much of this? Should this be later?” And I will ask the audience what they think, and listen to the feeling of it.
AVC: It feels like there is a strong sense of who your audience is at this point. During your last interview with The A.V. Club, you talked about changing the dynamics when you’re in Union Hall versus a 2,500 seat theater. Do you adjust vis-a-vis crowd composition?
DC: Well, adjusting, that’s purely on size. That’s not about audience. When you’re doing a big theater, you have control over how much light is in the audience. And I really like to limit the light past the first five rows. I really like it to drop into, not pitch black, but where I’m not making out any detail. Some people like more light, some people like no light, but when I’m in the smaller venues, I can see everybody and they can see me seeing them. And I love it. I enjoy doing theaters, but it’s a much different show. I’m different. The audience is different. The give and take is different. The energy is different. A theater is more lucrative and it’s better for your ego [laughs.].
Not that they’re bad shows, they’re just slightly different, there’s more performance to it, and there’s some little things that you subconsciously change. Just by doing it for decades and decades, you adjust without really thinking too much about it, just your performance changes. So in that way, it’s different. It’s not so much about my audience or who I think is going to be crammed into a basement and who might be in row H at the theater, you know?
AVC: You mention briefly in the special that the past 18 months or so were the longest you’ve gone without doing standup?
DC: Absolutely, without question. Before that, I think the longest might have been three months, maybe. During the summer after the pandemic started in January of 2020, when people were really desperately trying to do stuff, I did an outdoor show that just didn’t work. I mean, I put it together, it was outside another Brooklyn venue that I love called Littlefield. And they put it together outside with, like, plexiglass in-between people, and six feet apart, and during the day when it was still light out… it just didn’t work. And it was one of those things where we all knew; we were like, “Ah, this isn’t really the same [laughs].” You know, you can’t get work done that way. And that was it. I don’t really count that.
But I remember vividly, and I will never forget the first set I did when I was able to do it again, it was at Sultan Room in Bushwick, and I rode my bike down there and I’ve been stuck in lockdown in Toronto up until just a couple of days prior to that. And it’s one of the greatest feelings. I started getting a little emotional at the end. And that turned into the “I’ve been dreaming about this” bit that’s in the special. That was a thing that I started riffing—to cover my getting emotional [laughs]! I was like, “I’m not going to cry. That’s so pathetic.” And I just sort of found my way out of that moment. And it eventually became that bit. But yeah, it was a powerful experience.
AVC: The last time you released a special and went on tour, it was a little tumultuous, at least from a public perspective. First there were the statements Charlene Yi made, which you’ve talked about handling badly at the time, and then there was that criticism of the Times interview with the Arrested Development cast members. Looking back at that time, does it feel transformational in terms of how social media affected you?
DC: I think transformational might be a bit strong, but it definitely is a real, viable force. There’s not a lot anymore, thankfully, but I still get the occasional response to, “Hey, I’m going to be doing this thing” with “David Cross is a racist piece of shit,” or, you know, I hate Asian people, or just stuff that isn’t true at all. I just got one the other day. I retweeted the announcement of Bob and I’s show that we’re going to do. And then somebody sent one of those, “Is this you?” You know, the blackface sketch on With Bob and David, which I’m sure they didn’t see—because they’re not allowed to see it. But that’s kind of a sad byproduct, that there’s this bit that makes fun of that thing. But because that thing exists and you have to have that thing exist in order to make fun of that thing and the person and the context, it won’t be seen, because they just took the whole episode off the air. So this guy’s like, “Is this you?” And it’s about, “David Cross wears blackface in sketch,” and you go, well, it’s a bit more complicated than that, but OK, if you want to be that reductive, sure.
AVC: Referencing that episode, it seems like there’s this idea that context doesn’t matter, which was a common critique about the blackface sketch, and which seems worrying—
DC: It’s the most important part of all the complaints. It starts and ends with, “Context doesn’t matter anymore.” And that’s so anti-intellectual and it goes against everything I know and believe—the fact that people are not interested in hearing your context. And that also is part of the Times interview issue. That’s what I learned from that, from the fallout of that thing, is people are not interested in context. They don’t care. You know, it’s emotional, it’s not rational, it’s anti-intellectual, and any kind of debate or argument about a blackface sketch, your legs are cut out from under you. You can’t make any points. You’re not allowed to. And then you’re just dealing with ignorance and emotion. So, yeah, that’s been a tough thing to realize, that that’s where we are now. Context just doesn’t matter.
AVC: It does seem to obscure the more interesting part of the criticism, which is that there’s a question over who gets to wield offensive language and imagery, and to what ends. You can make an argument of “read the room” moments; you’re not going to release a sketch about committing a school shooting the day after a giant school shooting takes place. Sarah Silverman has talked about regretting her blackface episode of her show for the very reason that culture can be so disassociated from context. Is that a more interesting way in, because you can go, “Yeah, let’s talk about that, because now I can have an intellectual conversation?”
DC: Well, I don’t even want any parameters. I’ve spent the better part of my life, some of my most-enjoyed moments are sitting in a pub or a bar and having a few drinks with people that I don’t necessarily see eye to eye, and you have this conversation. And sometimes you walk away more edified, and you’ve learned and you’ve expanded and grown and you understand their take on something and you become more sensitive to it. Sometimes you don’t, but you have a conversation. And sometimes we are not allowed to have a conversation anymore. And that’s really sad.
It’s not a matter of like, “This thing happened; oh, I better write a monologue apology.” And then then there’s another column, or a blog, or something, somebody writes something, and then there’s another statement… you might as well send fucking gift baskets to each other with pithy little comments. It’s garbage. It’s worthless. And so the thing that I really enjoy, which is having those discussions and debates—I mean, I’ve spent two hours on a train in England talking to a priest about stuff—and can’t do that anymore.
[David has to go, so we agree to continue the conversation the next morning.]
AVC: Yesterday, we were talking about the way that social media had shifted—how the experiences you deal with on Twitter, for a lot of people out there, the past is forever the present to them, right? They see something from six years ago and they’re like, Oh, you’re a piece of shit, or whatever.
DC: That’s a great way to put it. The past is ever the present. Or whatever you said [laughs].
AVC: But in some ways, these internet drama campaigns have been happening to you for a long time. It’s a more lighthearted one, but people tried to manufacture a big fight between you and Patton Oswalt over your respective mainstream film roles. Do you remember this?
DC: I do, because the reason it stood out to me so much was, it’s probably quite literally the first time I ever experienced backlash, as it were. It was for Alvin and the Chipmunks. I didn’t think I’d have to defend it so constantly and vociferously. I mean, that thing didn’t go away for a little while, and it kind of weighed on me. And then I wrote—I guess this might have been pre-Facebook, wherever you put stuff out there before Twitter and all that shit. I wrote this thing about, you know, where I was when in my career and mentally, where I was when I took the part and I had zero idea that it was going to upset anybody. [Laughs.]
And then because I was contractually obligated—like, who knew it was going to be a fucking billion dollar movie—and I had no choice but to be in these movies. So when that was happening, I do not remember the exact point in the back and forth, but Patton said something like, “I was offered that role too. I didn’t take it. I guess you caught the script.” I’m butchering it, but it was something like that.
And what I didn’t realize when I responded to him really upset and publicly was that he was referencing a conversation we had had. He had done some movie that was like, I don’t know what it was, it was a McHale’s Navy [laughs] or something. I don’t know what it was and apparently I said the first part to him—I said, “Oh my God, I got that script. I read 20 pages. I got so angry about it I threw it across the floor,” or something like that. Whatever the first part was, I did not remember at all.
So when he referenced that, he was referencing something that, to him, would have made me chuckle. And instead I just felt like it was a really good friend piling on, and that’s why I responded the way I did. So then Patton reached out, he’s like, “No, no, no, no, dude,” And then we were fine because, like normal human beings, we settled our misunderstandings in private as opposed to a public forum. And so that’s where that came from. Yeah, that’s a long-winded way to say, I remember it well, because that thing didn’t just happen; there was a whole backstory to it.
AVC: What was interesting about it, too, is that it also seemed like all these other people felt the need to be outraged about it, too.
DC: Yeah, but they’re not. It’s just faux. It’s not real outrage. And you know, the older you get—or I’m sure kids today have kind of sussed it out a little bit more than we did—you realize, hopefully pretty quickly, that it’s not real. Now, being called a racist piece of shit is real. But that thing in particular, like Twitter beef, is fake.
AVC: The other thing about that is it seemed like part of the beginning of this cultural transformation over the weakening of the idea of selling out, which used to be this big issue, at least in the subculture that you came out of.
DC: I remember really, really well. And now there is no more selling out. You know, John Cage would have an NFT, I imagine. But there were a couple of benchmarks: Michael Jackson bought the Lennon-McCartney library, and all of a sudden Apple was was licensing “Revolution.” Nike or Apple, one of those, and that was a big deal. It was a big uproar, and everybody was upset. And then slowly but surely—actually not slowly, pretty quickly—all of a sudden, “Won’t Get Fooled Again” is being used for a car ad. And Creedence Clearwater Revival is being used for stuff. And then more and more of that stuff happened; people started cashing in, and it was really a huge snowball effect.
And then the other thing that accompanied that was, I was living in Boston at the time, I want to say somewhere around 1990, give or take a year. And there was a local beloved indie band called the Del Fuegos and they had themselves and their music in a Miller Lite ad. And it was the first time I was part of a community where these guys were fucking vilified. It was quick and it was harsh. I’ve never talked to the guys, I just was there and I was in that world. I had a number of friends who had bands and they played together—it was a very tight, incestuous little world there, the music and comedy in Boston at the time—but holy shit, it was surprising and a little disturbing, but those guys were just fucking figuratively run out of town. I mean, it was really harsh. And then, of course, not 10 years later bands are selling their music to whatever: cereal, mattresses, eye drops, you know, whatever.
And after that, starting in the early aughts, you would get a sense like, “Oh, that band wrote that song so they could sell shoes.” Like, what’s that—there’s a song by The American Authors or something like that, and it’s like [sings], “Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, these are the best days of our lives.” Whatever, it sounds very much like their songs in it. And I’m not saying that this is the case. I don’t know them. I don’t know anything about them. But when you heard that song, you thought there was a conversation between the band members like, “Hey, let’s just write something that we could make a shit ton of money off of and we can sell it to, you know, vitamin supplements or whatever.” [laughs] And that was the next step in the, “There is no selling out anymore.” It’s a concept that, unfortunately, less than one half of one percent of artists, I think, give a shit about that anymore. At least in America.
AVC: Or at least the lines have been pushed so far back now—you would still probably get shit if you licensed your song to Lockheed Martin, like a defense contractor, but that’s maybe about it.
DC: Yeah, and even then, people would be like, “Good for you, man. World’s burning anyway, get yours.”
AVC: It does sort of go hand-in-hand with this cultural shift towards the idea that no one should be criticized for “doing their thing.” Like when Corey Feldman gave that terrible musical performance on the Today show, and people suddenly felt the need to defend him, because how dare you attack somebody for doing what they love? Or that bit you did about Justin Timberlake on Punk’d, how he completely changed his entire personality for the cameras, calling out that his public persona was totally fraudulent.
DC: Does that exist somewhere?
AVC: I’ve been searching for it the past few days. I seem to remember you doing it on Carson Daly’s show.
DC: I was just talking about this. That’s wild that that exists, because I had only done that bit, maybe… I want to say three times, tops. And I was at Luna or Pianos, this would have been right after that Punk’d episode aired and it was before the Grammys or something. And I mean, days later—I’d say within a week—Chris Rock did the bit almost word for word. And I’m not accusing Chris Rock of anything; first of all, if any bit is going to have a million like-minded people go, “Oh, I got a spin on this,” it’s going to be that bit. It was obvious, I didn’t say anything particularly earth-shattering. I’m sure a ton of people had the same idea, but I always wondered if there was a writer for whatever it was, the Oscars or something he was hosting, and it literally was like a week later, I’m like, “Holy shit, that’s almost word for word what I said.” But that’s really interesting that you bring it up because I didn’t even know that existed or was on TV because I remember seeing it days later going, “Oh shit. Well, I can’t do that anymore.”
AVC: But it did seem symbolic as a similar cultural transformation. If you did that bit today, the next day you would be getting a firestorm of hate tweets from people saying, “Leave Justin alone. What did he ever do to you?”
DC: Yeah, but that was different because I was pointing out like, “This is how you present yourself. This is your public persona, and it’s all bullshit.” That’s all I was pointing out was how he was like, “Yo dog”—you know, this kind of co-opting black urban culture—“Oh, man, yo, don’t diss me like that. Why you frontin’?” And then when he thinks something’s wrong and he’s calling his mom, he’s just like the scared white kid all of a sudden: “Mom, mom, can you come get me?” I was just pointing out that it was all bullshit.
AVC: That thread has always been a through-line for your comedy—to pry apart the bullshit and be like, “Oh, this thing that gets taken for granted is actually made of bullshit.” Do you find when you’re writing comedy nowadays that it’s harder to pry apart the bullshit, or is it more obvious now?
DC: I mean, I think it’s just as obvious as it ever was. I just think less people care. Like if I did that Justin Timberlake thing in 2022 as opposed to 2001, I think people would kind of laugh, but they’d also go, “So what? Who cares?” You know, I think more people cared about that stuff back then—and no judgment on it for better or worse—I just think people are like, “Yeah, we don’t give a shit. We know it’s fake.”
AVC: The idea of authenticity has become less important to people.
DC: Yeah.
114 Comments
“Referencing that episode, it seems like there’s this idea that
context doesn’t matter, which was a common critique about the blackface
sketch, and which seems worrying”
Man, what kind of website would routinely subscribe to such a dumb idea? Surely not one you’d want to work for.
It’s telling how much more nuanced the AV Club seems on this issue when the proponent of context is actually on the phone with them.
Well, having to interview somebody somewhat intelligent who could eviscerate your usual bullshit is important context.
“All I wanted to do with my life is overlay some shitty snark rewriting some pop star’s canned press releases”- The AV Club.
Cross headed them off at the pass by pointing out that ignoring context is something stupid people do.
A.V. Club isn’t cluelessly woke. They pander to the cluelessly woke crowd
I was such a Cross booster since I discovered Mr. Show in my early teens. His Shutup You Fucking Baby double (CD’s) got 100’s of plays in anything I owned with a disk drive and speakers. I felt as if he was speaking what I couldn’t find the words to say. It was mean and biting and raw. His turn in Arrested Development was brilliance and has obviously stood the test of time. Hell, I don’t even care that he was in all Chipmunk movies (“Squeakquels”) just for the money. Gotta work, right? The guy’s resume speaks for itself, for sure. With that said, I’m almost 40 and find Cross to be such a fucking bummer to even listen to. Every interview he does, press junket or podcast, he comes across as hostile, disinterested and like a complete prick. I’d love to be able to write that off as some committed character bit, but I’m afraid he’s just a huge fucking asshole and not someone I would ever want to “have a drink with”. I’m still going to pay to watch his new special, but expecting to be further disappointed by it.
Are you the guy who reviewed him on Paste?
I feel the same. His last special “Oh, Come On” was the final straw. It was just mad rambling stories that had no jokes or punch lines. You can be an asshole, but you still have to be entertaining and interesting
You put it more succinctly, but “Oh, Come On” was my breaking point too.
yeah, i feel the same way and that’s okay! he still gets a lifetime pass an honest-to-goodness legend, but i’ve outgrown him and it seems in many ways he’s outgrown himself. robin williams is the only guy i’ve seen come close to being as good as his younger and on-drugs self, and i don’t think i’m being mean when i say david cross is no robin williams.cross has fallen into a comfortable niche, and once you can just kind of count on going out and saying whatever and getting away with it there’s no incentive to push yourself and get better. and honestly, whatever! dude’s gonna be 60 before we know it and he’s allowed to coast if it works for him. it’s not like he’s ‘bad’ he’s just not fresh.i hope this new show he’s doing with odenkirk pushes him out of his comfort zone a little and i’ll always check out what he does, but what i love about comedy is finding new voices and getting excited about them. cross just isn’t exciting.
I feel the same way. He’s followed Carlin into the “cranky old man” territory that, sadly, did not honor his legacy. This would be a good place to say something about atheist comics who somehow end up being miserable old cranks, despite knowing everything there is to know about everything. 😉
I agree, and more so when compared to the career of Odenkirk, who has been able to do things other than straight comedy.
He’s usually that way face-to-face, especially with a drink in his hand
Post-covid what now? How far in the future is he from?
I hate that usage of “post-” that apparently means “since the beginning of the still ongoing thing.”
Come on, can’t we draw a distinction between now and when we had to store all the dead bodies in freezer trucks?
Yes. e.g. “since the height of the pandemic.” Or “in the past year.”
Well, if everybody uses “post-COVID” to mean “since the height of the pandemic” (since the outcome here isn’t an end to the pandemic but a slide into endemicity), I just don’t think that’s the worst abuse of language ever recorded.So many pedantic fights could be avoided if the listener actively sought the other person’s meaning rather than getting hung up on specific language.
I know what you mean — generally. This is an oddly charged issue, though. There are people deeply committed to the pandemic being over (and never having been a big deal, or even ‘real’, in the first place). So talking about it being in the past might seem to align one with a whole host of positions about masks, mandates, vaccines, whether people are “living in fear,” etc. etc.
Remember when people were saying that Trump’s presidency would at least inspire some great protest art and humor? This guy’s exhibit A for the opposite happening.
Especially considering how good his Bush-era stuff was.
Wishful thinking with that first sentence
Oh man, I remember loving The Increasingly Poor Decisions of Todd Margaret. Wonder if it holds up on rewatch. Great interview, too.
I think I only saw the first season, but what I remember pretty strongly is that every so often over the season there would be a cut back to his house or apartment in the US and it would be slightly more decrepit and filled with wild animals than the previous time.
1st two seasons are great.
Pretend you guys have ever, ever let context get in the way of a good outrage.
Hi Alex, there is literally no context that makes it ok for white people to wear blackfaceAnd yes, that includes whatever example people are about to reply withAlso Cross really hasn’t learned shit, has he? Who cares about how people felt about my racism, all that really matters is me me me
i think it’s really funny when they go ‘context context context’ but to me it’s like…yeah the context is you thought blackface was a funny punchline. just because the ‘point’ of the sketch might have been to satirize it, that doesn’t mean the joke still isn’t ‘isn’t it funny that i’m in blackface’?and, while i wasn’t there, i would not be surprised if they worked backwards from ‘how can we get away with blackface?’ i’m not saying this means they are racist, but if you dig deeper into the ‘context’ argument it falls apart. the joke didn’t just appear in the ether, you wrote it!
White performers assume they’ll get the benefit of the doubt and never stop to consider that maybe people who have actually experienced racism their whole lives have extended the benefit of the doubt and were made to regret it on too many occasions.
Agreed.
Counterpoint. This is funny:If you can point me to someone who was hurt by this, go ahead. But I’m not impressed by vague assertions about “how people felt” that do not seem to reflect how actual people felt.
So yeah anyway there is no context that makes it ok for white people to wear blackface
Oh, well if half a dozen Twitter randos say it…
Some people on twitter have spoken. That’s how the law works now.
You think tweets from random assholes are evidence? They’re not. They’re just tweets from random assholes.
Dude literally asked “If you can point me to someone who was hurt by this, go ahead” so I did
Not one of those people even claimed to have been hurt. Kind of undercuts your point.
We’re going to get into this level of semantics now? Do you think they’re happy about it?
I bet they’re happy about the likes and RTs they got by complaining about it, so call it a wash
You: white people can’t be upset about blackfaceYou: Black people who are upset about blackface are faking it for likesI’m sensing an agenda here
If you think clout chasing is only a white thing I have a bridge in NY you might be interested in
It’s amazing, the breathless lack of self-awareness. “Everyone who objects to the thing I like is clout chasing” Because literally nobody could object to blackface earnestly? Just say you are looking for reasons to be dismissive of racism and go
The “unacceptable REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT” thing is absolutely taking a minority extremist opinion, and when people express those opinions on Twitter they’re doing it for clout 90% of the timeOnly a bare majority of Black people consider it “never acceptable” to do blackface as part of a Halloween costume – the most context-free, frivolous use there is! Bet that number dips well below 50% when you’re talking about using it in a satirical, antiracist comedy sketch
Get this guy, he thinks it’s ok to completely disregard the feelings of the majority of Black people. You literally just posted a graphic that utterly undercut your own argument, congratulations. Also, you’re defending blackface.
My point is, if you change the question from “Halloween costume” to “explicitly antiracist comedy sketch” I bet that 53% would drop at least three to four percentage points – which would mean it is you, recognitions, who are “disregarding the feelings of the majority of Black people”, you irredeemable white supremacist you
“Hi, I’m SynnibarLarper, and I defend blackface by making up hypotheticals out of my ass and using them to call people calling out my racism racists!” Yeah, that’s a great legacy. Definitely the way you want to be immortalized in the digital realm.
Okay, let’s stipulate that 53% holds regardless of context, and let’s throw in the “no answer”s and such into the “never acceptable” category too. That’s still a solid 30% of Black people who think it’s acceptable, at least sometimes/rarely, to black up for a costume party. Go tell them they’re all racists, and let us know how it went!
You: these black people who hold this opinion don’t really mean it and are just saying it for cloutYou: these other black people who agree with me are right and if you disagree with them you’re racist
Respondents to an anonymous opinion poll are less likely to be chasing clout than terminally-online Twitter weirdos, correct
And the majority of those respondents say that blackface is unacceptable in any circumstance. Also, you’re still defending blackface.
It wasn’t “in any circumstance”, it was specifically regarding Halloween parties! Again, I’m willing to bet they’d cut more slack to antiracist comedy……but even if they didn’t, a healthy majority saying it’s NOT absolute should at least convince you that blanket “in any context” statements are tendentious and a product of the Twitter inflammatory-takes factory
You sure are happy to speak on behalf of black people! Also, you’re defending blackface.
I’m saying the most current research I can find indicates (surprise!) Black people aren’t a monolith about this stuffas opposed to, say, cherrypicking 6 tweets and calling it Black Opinion, Period
I’m very sorry you seem unable to grasp the concept that a concept that was thought up by white people specifically to mock black people is in fact racist
Apparently 30% of Black people also seem unable to grasp it so I’m decent company
Sorry but the blackface you love so much is still racist
Of course Black people aren’t a monolith about this…or anything. Still doesn’t make it right. At some point principles have to matter.
Of course Black people aren’t a monolith about this…or anything. Still
doesn’t make it right. At some point principles have to matter.
But that’s ultimately meaningless – the whole point is that people have different principles. “Of course people have different opinions about what’s right and wrong, but mine are the correct ones and they matter the most.”Just to make clear, I’m not defending Halloween blackface and I’m surprised those “acceptable” numbers are as high as they are, but this is a dumb argument. If some black people think it’s fine, who are we to tell them they’re wrong?
If my principles led me inexorably to the belief that, say, Spike “Bamboozled” Lee needs a lecture from whitebread AV Club comments posters on what racism is and isn’t, I’d reexamine those principles
Spike Lee is a racist, yes he needs a lesson, full stop.
Not in real life. It’s fucking Twitter. Nobody is happy about anything.
I mean I knew you weren’t a serious person to begin with but thanks for proving it
I think they’re happy their Tweets are getting attention and they don’t really care about anything other than that
I think it sure is easy for AV Club commenters to be able to dismiss people complaining about racism
Not liking something is not the same as being hurt.
Ok now you’re just pretending to be dumb
Literally none of the people you quoted said they were hurt
Dude literally asked “If you can point me to someone who was hurt by this, go ahead” so I didAren’t the people criticizing you supposed to be the ones arguing that context is important? LOL
What?
I was pointing out the irony of the people claiming to be pro-context in all things criticizing your response and ignoring the context of you responding to their request for examples.
Oh sorry lol. Things have been crazy around here
Not all context is equally explanatory.
99% of tweets are from insignificant assholes.
Telling that all but one of those tweets is from a white person.
It’s Always Sunny is a show about the most vain, most ignorant, stupidest, *worst* people in the world. The joke isn’t “blackface is funny”, the joke is “these idiots think blackface is funny”.Are there some watching it who would take it unironically? Sure. But if “some people might take it the wrong way” is a good reason to not be able to make a joke, then nobody would ever be able to make jokes at all.
Particularly when the one making the assertions is as blindingly white as recognitions
Context does matter. People can figure out whether blackface is being used, or satirized. People have got to stop flattening everything.Picture this: Guy A: “Your wife is a c**t.” Guy B: “Did you just call his wife a c**t?” Guy C: “Don’t call my wife a c**t.”We live in a world where cynical people would watch that exchange and report that three men said c**t in reference to a woman.
I’ll see your Sunny, and raise you 30 Rock Live.
I’ll raise you as well.
BANJO!
Don’t feed the troll.
The only people who ignore context around things like the n-word or blackface are stupid white people on the internet. In real life, regular people of all races are more than capable of understanding the context in which those things occur, of ascertaining whether their use is intended to be offensive, and of making their own minds up. “Context doesn’t matter” is just a dumb cop out for Woke idiots so that they can enjoy being judgemental without having to think.
Somebody must have lit up the Context Doesn’t Matter Signal, because here is Recognitions-Man with the same take he always has.
It ought to be possible to evolve toward the complex idea that blackface is never acceptable even when deployed in the name of satire, while also acknowledging that people who intended its use satirically at least kind of had their hearts in the right place, but used a tool they should not have used to get there. Rather than just, you know, saying they’re racists. Of course, we are well on our way to obliterating satire as a useful comedic and political tool entirely, so–never mind, I guess.
And here you are with your usual Political Correctness Gone Mad rant. That stuff closed out of town back in the 90s, man, get some new material. But please point to where I accused anyone of being racist in my comment because it’s not like you’re so desperate you have to make up arguments no one said to have points to debate against or anything
Blackface “Not Racist”, Says Recognitions
But please point to where I accused anyone of being racist in my comment
because it’s not like you’re so desperate you have to make up arguments
no one said
Also Cross really hasn’t learned shit, has he? Who cares about how people felt about my racismJeez, that didn’t take very long.
And you know, I try really hard to not be the “political correctness has run amok” guy. No one likes that guy. That guy sucks. But you specifically, as an individual, just won’t stop picking it up and running amok. There is no other take to have on your opinions because running as amok as possible is all you ever do.
Ok, so you’re making two different arguments without being clear about it. You want to give the benefit of the doubt to people using blackface so bad, be my guest. But Cross has been overtly racist to people of color’s faces far beyond a simple comedy sketch, and all he wants to do is whine about how hard it’s made his life.
Exactly this. To be bemused/annoyed that people don’t want to know the “context” of it- same old shit.
Bro, do you even Tropic Thunder?
Anyone who thinks that John Howard Griffin or Mad Men were racist because they used blackface has something seriously wrong with them.
“I’m very sorry you seem unable to grasp the concept that a concept that was thought up by white people specifically to mock black people is in fact racist”
Just because someone had racist reasons for doing something doesn’t mean that everyone who does that is racist.
wow, youre exactly one of the stupid people hes talking about.
Cross has always been, for me, the quintessential 90’s asshole. Like, the guy I’d never want to get stuck next to at a party. Just look at him, still all in flannel in (nearly) all these shots.When he started telling that story about the Del Fuegos and then got to it being so “surprising” and “disturbing” for him I’m like fuck off we all know you would’ve been the lead pitchfork. But he made that clear in the following paragraph, where it was all just a lament about how nobody cares about selling out anymore.He’s always played this sociopath with zero empathy but also quite brittle; dish it can’t take it. That he got there from the Alvin and the Chipmunks story shows that yeah that character he always plays is just himself.
Weird claim that no one cares about authenticity any more. They may not care about people monetizing their work, but authenticity seems to be the most valuable currency there is.
I actually think that people care more about authenticity now than ever before. It’s just that what we think of as “authentic” has shifted away from shying away from the influence of money toward whether a story is told by someone who has had those experiences, particularly in terms of identity.
i’m sure he was one of those “14-year-old girls killed alternative music!!” dudes.
Another commenter: Also Cross really hasn’t learned shit, has he? Who cares about how people felt about my racism, all that really matters is me me meYour comment:He’s … quite brittleI’m not coming down on one side or the other, but it’s interesting that people see him in such different ways – one person thinks he doesn’t care what people think of him while another thinks he’s quite brittle.
You’re misunderstanding that other commenter. You think that other commenter is stating that Cross doesn’t care what other people think about him, when they’re clearly stating that Cross doesn’t care how he makes other people feel. A sentiment I agree with, as I noted — zero empathy.
Ah, right you are – a misreading on my part.
Nice try, David. Regardless of context, there’s no excuse for doing blueface.
Or whiteface.
underrated post right here
Still his best work
Before clicking on the link, I could remember the tune of his little song. So yeah, glad that Just Shoot Me is taking up space in my brain 20 years later.
Last summer, I saw David Cross sitting outside in a cafe on my block. He was wearing a porkpie hat like Breaking Bad’s Heisenberg. And that’s my story about that.
Are you sure that wasn’t just a schizophrenic homeless man?
Stay out of his territory.
I guess I just don’t see how there even can be an appropriate context for blackface. If you want to poke fun at racists or satirize racism, there are other ways to do it besides a terrible, historically reviled practice. It’s like making fun of anti-Asian discrimination by acting like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s (I think you remember the film). Why the hell would you do that? Why drive the point home that racism is bad by displaying something racist? Forget political correctness and wokeness. Read the history of blackface. Talk about context. It’s awful. Just no excuse for it.
Bro, do you even Tropic Thunder?
It’s all just accelerated today with the vastly expanded media, and the last 5 years have stripped away whatever varnish of reasonable discourse was left. “Respect your elders” was big when I was growing up. It was conditioning, and it worked. I was 35 before I realized all of the elders in my life were selfish pricks, full of shit, or (most times) both.A whole lot of young people today – not millennials – the kids that are 10-15 right now, are VERY in tune with the fact that the adults in their lives are full of shit. I think that’s progress.
C’mon. The phrase “don’t trust anyone over 30″ has been around since the ‘60s. Viewing adults with skepticism is hardly a new idea.
For grade-school kids, it’s not such a great thing. They are simply not equipped to think abstractly the way young adults might be. We are vastly underestimating (ignoring) the confusion and stress that our bullshit is causing kids.
Maybe it’s because I’m pushing 40 now myself, but I doubt a lot of young adults are all that well-equipped to think abstractly.
Hell, most adults (period, full stop) aren’t good at think abstractly. And young adults have even less life experience or patience to really look at things in a nuanced way. Especially with actual “adulthood” (ie, family/career/mortgages… all the usual signposts of truly independent adult living) being delayed further and further into people’s 20s… or 30s.It seems to be the great irony of life that by the time you actually start getting any kind of handle on how life works, you’re too busy and tired with all your other shit to be able to do anything about it.
You’re absolutely right about all of that. What bugs me is that we’re not even giving them the chance.Things have changed on a macro, societal level over the last five years, and we have to acknowledge that. The Trump era has essentially normalized all sorts of behavior that had been universally disapproved (again, macro level). Kids see adults being rewarded for openly and brazenly behaving exactly how we tell them they shouldn’t. Selfishness, lying, cheating, racism, sexism, bullying, (hell, even assault and killing). We are capable of understanding that there is an agenda involved, people are being manipulated, and that those things are all still wrong. Young adults (like maybe 16-21) are just starting to grasp that nuance. Kids just don’t.For, say 4th-8th graders, there is a crucial developmental component to it. Kids this age understand logic way before they understand things like context and nuance. Nobody is born with formal critical thinking skills and, yes, not everybody actually gets there. But we are cutting these younger kids off at the knees. They are looking to us for help understanding, and we keep doubling down on confusion and stress. As a result (and we are too stupid and self-absorbed to realize it) these kids are writing us off way ahead of schedule, because they are sick of our bullshit. We of course richly deserve it, but I do wonder whether leaving pre-teens to their own devices, development-wise, will work out well for society.