Former Buffy and Angel crew members detail Joss Whedon's toxic work environment
TV Features Joss Whedon
On February 10, Charisma Carpenter shared a statement on social media detailing alleged emotional abuse she experienced at the hands of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel showrunner Joss Whedon. Her decision to speak out came after Justice League actor Ray Fisher called out Whedon last year for “gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable” behavior on the movie’s set.
Many of Carpenter’s castmates offered support, including Sarah Michelle Gellar, David Boreanaz, James Marsters, Eliza Dushku, Amber Benson, and Michelle Trachtenberg. In her statement of support, Trachtenberg shared allegations of her own, writing that “there was a rule [on set] saying he’s not allowed in a room alone with Michelle again.” On Friday, Variety published an exposé featuring interviews with former Buffy and Angel crew members, detailing Whedon’s toxic behavior on set.
According to an anonymous source, the rule behind Whedon not being allowed alone in the same room as Trachtenberg was due to “improper verbal exchange between Whedon and Trachtenberg.”
The piece’s sources also corroborate Carpenter’s allegations. Many crew members remember the volatile dynamic between the actress and Whedon starting early. A source who is described as “an individual who held a top position close to the show in its early years,” Whedon was pushed by the network to cast Carpenter against his wishes. The person recalls Whedon picking on Carpenter, with some of the writers of the show following Whedon’s lead, criticizing her acting.
Another crew member who worked closely with Carpenter on both Buffy and Angel, also recalls Whedon being “mean-spirited” and “verbally abusive” towards the actress. A producer also said that they noticed Whedon became even more hostile towards Carpenter while filming Angel, leading to writing off her character, as detailed by Carpenter in her own statement.
As of the time of publication, Whedon has yet to speak on the allegations.
227 Comments
Been waiting for awhile for Marti Noxon to go on the record. My bet is she’s this source.
She already did
https://deadline.com/2021/02/buffy-the-vampire-showrunner-marti-noxon-stands-by-accounts-of-abuse-joss-whedon-1234693324/
The one with Trachtenberg is especially weird, since Dawn was originally intended to be a preteen but then Joss was supposedly so bowled over by her audition that suddenly no other actress would do (but it apparently slipped his mind to alter the season’s first few scripts, resulting in Dawn being so incongruously childish that the character was forever tainted for a lot of fans). And it seems after all that, he still couldn’t help getting pissed at her.
Tsundere is a hell of a drug
Wanting an actress for a role and being able to actually work with a young teenager are not necessarily the same thing. It sounds based on the comments that the situation was a case of him speaking to her as if she were an adult. Given what we know about how he treats some adults he works with, it was likely not appropriate. His shows were filled with teenagers, but before Michelle, there really weren’t any regulars who were under 18, let alone 15.
Yep – the “Rule of Three” policy they had with Trachtenberg is very much SOP when working with children – and it’s notjust to protect the kid.Whedon DEFINITELY would have gotten them sued.
One thing this makes me wonder is how he’s managed to get so many people to work with him repeatedly. Is he sincerely good to them or is it conscious manipulation?
Statistically speaking, one will always be able to find a few people on any production willing to speak ill of those above them under the protective blanket of anonymity, which is basically what the Variety piece adds up to. Not that Whedon needs defending but let’s call a spade a spade. And things like the Variety piece also have the effect of making it harder for people who’ve worked with the targeted individual to come out publicly and say, “That’s not how my experience went” because they’ll be savaged as enablers and victim shamers. Buffy and Angel ran for 7 and 5 seasons respectively, if memory serves, so it’s likely hundreds of people worked with Whedon over both, but we’re to build an impression based on 11 anonymous sources? I don’t feel like falling for a Two Minute Hate so blatantly transparent.
Multiple people have come out under their names and either said Whedon was abusive or supported his accusers
As someone who has and does work in the industry, I have seen and heard abuse of all kinds. Recall Anthony Head’s response. He heard shouting often enough to note it but brushed it off as just the way the biz goes. Your “statistically speaking” is horseshit in an environment wherein verbal abuse is the norm.It’s also worth noting that there have already been “It didn’t happen to me” responses. Followed by “But I believe it.” Which tells me that even people who didn’t catch Whedon’s ire personally recognized the potential.
We’ve known many of these stories for years.
Playing armchair investigator and buffy fan, all the accusations kind of track in my opinion. A lot of the things he’s be accused of saying and doing, he’s said and joked about in dvd commentaries over the years, but in more of a joking tone. When it was just Ray Fisher, it’s easy to think, he’s just one person. Replacing a director it is easy to think Joss and Ray got off on the wrong foot and Joss’s humor was misunderstood. With Charisma and more speaking up more and more lines up with stuff Joss has said and done. Where they don’t look like poor awkward jokes anymore. Those where things he was following through on.
It’s not just 11 anonymous sources. It’s also the 7 performers named in the article above, all of whom worked with him across many years, and most across multiple projects. Marsters has also made comments about how Whedon was hostile towards him when he first joined Buffy because Marsters’s popularity as Spike ruined Whedon’s plan to kill Spike off mid-S2 as originally planned. (This kind of behavior lends further credence to Carpenter’s accusations since both together paint a picture of an artist who would react hostilely towards those who he felt forced him to have to change his plans for the show.)
If this were the first piece of “Actually Whedon was an asshole,” I might avoid the Two Minute Hate. But there’s been smoke around this guy for years.
It’s probably a combination of him being nice to the people he likes, and enough of his projects being huge successes that some people are willing to put up with his bullshit for the massive boost he could give their careers.
I thought this as well; he seems like another talented guy who can be a toxic asshole to people he doesn’t think can hurt him, while probably yukking it up with or slobbering over the Robert Downey Jrs and Chris Hemsworths of the world (both of whom have been oddly quiet about this).
I doubt even a power-hungry jackass like Whedon would have started anything on an MCU set.
I’m sure he would have but only with someone he knew he could get away with abusing
That’s my point though. Mutant Enemy was his little fiefdom. Justice League was a post-MCU project that he was arrogantly strutting into and “saving.” The MCU movies were A-list movies with A-list stars and even someone as cocky as Whedon knew not to rock the boat too much there.
I’m trying to picture him starting something Chris Hemsworth or Samuel L. Jackson and getting smacked down for it. Probably more verbally than physically.
It’s sounding like Whedon is perfectly fine to work with if you’re a “friend”. If this is in fact the way that he plays things, Whedon very well may have been an angel to work with for Hemsworth and Downey. The incidents with Carpenter *appear* to stem from Whedon’s resentment/anger/whatever over her being cast against his wishes, I wouldn’t think that would remotely be the same for the Marvel tentpole stars. IIRC both of them were cast before he was signed to anything Marvel related.
I’ve been wondering about this, and can’t help but wonder if it’s a combination of huge NDAs on those Marvel movies and the fact that it’s never been clear (to me at least) why he was off the films after Age of Ultron.
For the first Avengers film, Joss basically was able to use his clout and some backdoor dealing to get far more credit on the film than he deserved. Iirc he had it in his contract he was to get writer and director credit as well as getting first crack at writing and directing the sequel if the film did well. The film beat expectations and he took credit for a lot of it. In reality, he didn’t even write the script. He got credit, but he didn’t write it. I believe he did a draft, but it was rejected. I know another MCU director actually wrote the bulk of what was on screen. Joss then pushed for the Hawkeye family stuff out of sheer pettiness because he wanted one thing in the film that was actually his. He also didn’t like how many shots were handled by other units or how little control he really had.
Now, Joss is the kind of guy that thinks being a dick to people is funny and has no problem making someone cry just for shits and giggles. He also like many bullies, knows how to pick his targets. He was not about to mouth off to Jackson or Downey. Now I hear he tried to a be a bit of dick and it got slapped down hard and fast. The few cast members he was less than cordial with had too much grace (and career sense) to talk about it. Luckily for most of the crew, it was such a big production not a lot of people had to deal with him directly. Unable to be his usual controlling asshole self, actually took a toll on him while filming. Apparently his coping mechanism is being a piece of shit.
So the film comes out, it does great despite Joss, but the fans and the press heap praise on him. The execs can’t just dump him. He has a contract and the TV side has already made a deal with him and his brother Jed (who is not a complete piece of shit) for AoS. I think Loeb did this just to piss off Fiege and the movie people. Plus Joss was mostly just an EP in name only, with Jed taking on actual responsibility. So Joss, being a dick, doesn’t back out of Ultron and figures he can make it work. By the time of AoU things were fairly paint-by-numbers so it should be hard to fail. The studio was a mix of people who knew Joss was all hype and those that didn’t. There was buzz with him attached and for better or worse he is at the helm. Filming starts. Execs are not happy with the dailies or the direction of the film. The same person who actually wrote the first film is brought in to fix the script as best they can given shooting has already started. I forget how far along the production was at that point and they may have been limited in how much triage could be done via reshoots/pick-ups. They do what they can. Joss is pissed and knows his time with Marvel is over. Everyone does what they can to salvage the film and the results were what they were.
Joss is basically given the option to gracefully exit after the film. He takes it to preserve his ego and reputation. This is around when Marvel started hiring lesser known directors with no hype around them and started to better vet their directors.
This kind of thing happens a lot in Hollywood. You get a director that is not really that good, but they bring as much -or more- name recognition to the project as the leads and their films seems to do okay, so the director is considered bankable. And while the industry is small, a surprising number of stories don’t make their way up to the c-suites or get written off as rumor/gossip (which in all fairness a lot of stories are). So execs don’t often realize a person is all hype or too toxic until it bites them in the ass. Because the execs don’t want to look dumb for hiring a no-talent-hack and the shitty director doesn’t want to look bad, they just agree not to work together after the project and put on a front that all is well. Then they each have their people smear the other in background and muddy the waters on who is to blame if the project failed or take credit if it did well.
The story I heard was Zak Penn wrote a script and then Joss did, claiming he completely discarded Zak’s script and used none of it.What did you hear and especially who is the person you’re saying was brought in to salvage and even rewrite Avengers 1 and 2?https://www.deccanherald.com/entertainment/joss-whedons-comment-avengers-script-inappropriate-zak-penn-669088.html
I won’t say who, because NDAs and friendships and such, but iirc Penn did a script and it was not great but had a few good bits, Joss did a script, it was not great, then the unaccredited person was brought in and rewrote everything. Not sure how much if anything they kept from the previous two version, m understanding is it wasn’t a lot. Then Joss went in and fought to add back the Hawkeye household stuff. Marvel didn’t want to add a third writer to the credits and luckily this person was cool with it.Studios regularly ignore guild rules on writing credits and quietly make pay offs or settle things out of the public eye.
The Hawkeye house stuff is from the second film though, not the first. (And I’d argue is some of the strongest parts of Age of Ultron.)I don’t doubt that additional writers worked on the first Avengers film (from memory Whedon even credits Mo and Jed with some parts of it in his directors commentary)- but I just find it hard to believe that Whedon’s script was not useable and they threw out everything. The man was a script doctor years before he was a director and his reputation was always more about his writing than his visual eye.(Even as recently as 2018 Kevin Feige was crediting Joss’ rewrites of the first Captain America movie as helping to save that movie…so while I can believe other writers worked on that movie without credit, it feels like a stretch to me to believe that nothing in his drafts for the first Avengers was useable, so the studio threw it out and brought in another writer…but kept Whedon on to direct.)
You’re correct the Hawkeye stuff was in AoU, he fought to keep it in the film. Kinja decided to remove like 2-3 sentences from post. You should see how it butchered the post I made on the Cotes/Abrams Superman story; it removed a link, moved text from the middle of a sentence to the front, and moved the image from the end of the post to the top.
Anyway, sorry for any confusion there. Basically the missing lines in my post were transitioning to talking him adding some gags/improved shots/lines on set, the post credits shawarma thing, and then about how on Ultron there were rewrites and reshoots and how he fought for the Hawkeye stuff.
There is a big difference between doctoring a script and writing one from scratch and even ace writers can whiff it. This is also around when he and Kai separated. She (and Jed) often cleaned up his work and she came up with some of the best ideas (iirc Inara in Firefly was her idea).
As for what was was wasn’t kept from earlier drafts, I said “Not sure how much if anything they kept from the previous two version” I’m sure they kept some stuff from both drafts.
Counterpoint: his Wonder Woman script. I’m not saying it makes him a bad writer. I’m just saying it was a bad script WB wisely did not produce. So I can believe he wrote an Avengers script that Marvel didn’t like.
I can believe he produced a script they didn’t like…the scenario I just don’t see happening is him producing a script they don’t like, they throw out the script and bring in another writer to write the script from scratch without credit, but they keep Whedon on to direct the film.To use the Wonder Woman example, when he produced that script- WB didn’t keep him onboard as a director after they threw out the script, they dropped him from the project entirely.
Just given how much Whedon’s reputation was tied to the idea he was a good writer- rather than his actual visual skills- it’d be shock to me if Marvel decided to keep him on as a director for their most important film after throwing out his script. (I do 100% believe uncredited writers worked on both of Whedon’s Avengers films- cause that’s how blockbusters work- I just think it was likely more refining and rewriting what he already had…not throwing out his script and starting from scratch.)
You seem to have insider knowledge.
Might it be because Age of Ultron was nowhere near as well-received as the first Avengers?
What’s odd about them being quiet about it? They’ve likely never witnessed any toxic behavior from Whedon and their working relationship with him was much shorter than the people on Buffy and Angel. If they have something to say, they can but they are under no obligation to insert themselves into this conversation if they don’t. It isn’t like we haven’t gotten plenty already.
He is the kind of person who is nice to a very small group of people, mostly those that can tolerate his BS or that he knows he can’t push around. He thinks acting like a dick is funny and will be mean to people for shits and giggles. He has been known to enjoy and even brag about making people (especially writers) cry.
This kind of behavior makes it hard to tell when he is being an ass “jokingly” and when he is really upset. This has led to some very uncomfortable moments on and off set. Some people are better at navigating that kind of toxic workplace than others and are able to stay on his good side. Sometimes that means joining in the toxic behavior to be “in on the joke” and avoid being a target.
If you look close, you’ll see a good chunk of the people that made him look good have peeled
off over the years. This shows in the quality of his work over time. For nearly every project of his that has been great, if you look behind the scenes you’ll discover it was people other than Joss that made it good, often in spite of him.
It makes a bit more sense on learning that he never wanted to cast Carpenter in the first place (just like he wasn’t the one who cast Fisher). If she gets fed up with his bullshit and quits, that’s fine by him and nuts to the network. He can reserve whatever decency he has for actors he wants to continue working with.
I wonder what the reasons were for why the network wanted to cast her but Joss didn’t.
I dare to put my bet on “She is hot!”Then come second probable reason on why Joss didn’t like her. He doesn’t like some supporting actresses out prettier his Buffy.
Hollywood has no shortage of hot people. Joss even pointed out once that Nicholas Brendon was way too good-looking to play a dork like Xander.
Yeah, but we are talking about the one that caught the attention of execs. There are thousands of hot blonde aspiring actresses out there. But not the one with exotic name and looks, plus being brunette like Charisma Carpenter.
Remarkable how Charisma Carpenter had an even more stand out name than her character with Cordelia Chase.
I heard the role of Xander was originally offered to Ryan Reynolds. Which would further prove your point.
I kind of want to see the universe where that happened. Nicholas Brendon did a good job, but Ryan Reynolds as Xander sounds hysterical.
I like how their solution to that was to make him slouch and put him clothing 2-3 sizes to big for him (which to be fair was the fashion of the time.)
I don’t know that Joss thought she was hot. He has a clear type, and Carpenter isn’t it. He has a big thing for mopey waifs, like Summer Glau, and Amy Acker. He probably thought that CC’s big boobs were annoying and tacky. While I think she was fantastic in the part, he probably resented having this huge smiling, big boobed actress forced on him that he wasn’t attracted to. That’s no excuse for his behavior, but I think you have his motivation all wrong.
I know he has a certain type. I was talking from the execs side.
Everyone with eyes and sound minds surely agreed Charisma Carpenter is that hot, definitely more than Sarah Michelle Gellar. If there was a Wonder Woman movie/series back then, I will champion her to be Diana.
Your second opinion actually supporting my takes on why Whedon resented her back then. No one can outshined his Buffy. Plus, the fact she was auditioned as Buffy first, yet still got a part as “not so throaway character she becomes regular supporting character”, seems to rub Whedon the wrong way.
OK, I didn’t get that you were talking from the exec’s side.
I never thought about her as Wonder Woman, but now that you’ve said it, wow, 2000 era Charisma Carpenter as a Wonder Woman in the the Linda Carter mode as opposed to a Gal Gadot type would have been AMAZING. Quite frankly, with her looks, likeability, and amazing movie star name(I mean, Charisma Carpenter, c’mon!) I was always surprised she didn’t become a bigger star.
If a Wonder Woman movie had been made back in 2000, the role probably would have gone to Angelina Jolie.
Didn’t Sarah Michelle Gellar originally audition for the role of Cordelia as well?
I don’t know about Wonder Woman but I could see her as Donna Troy.
Didn’t he initially resist casting Amber Benson as Tara because she was “too fat”?
The funny thing about Amber Benson is I’ve never really been able to tell if:A) She lost weight after BuffyB) She was never actually heavy at all, but was wardrobed to look heavier than she actually was.or C) She is thin by any real standard, but the waifishness of the rest of the female cast during her time on the show made her look heavy in comparison.I feel like it is mostly B and C.
In everything I have seen her in since Buffy, she looks just as thin as any other actress in Hollywood.
That was his answer to why the network wanted her but Joss Whedon didn’t, so you pretty much supported his answer.
“probably” he thought this“Probably” he thinks thatYou’re like a buffy mind-reader it’s amazing that you know what this dude ACTUALLY was THINKING 20 years ago
Rumor had it back in the day that Carpenter was originally considered for the Buffy role. Not sure what happened or how that plays into all this.
Yes, she was auditioned for Buffy. Obviously she didn’t get the part, but due to studio execs insistence, she got the supporting character’s part. My take is this action rubbed Whedon the wrong way, as he doesn’t want any women supporting characters to outshine his Buffy. For him, Charisma Carpenter stick out like the sore thumb, since she is hotter than Sarah Michelle Gellar, and her character got upgraded from just recurring to regular. Hence his pettiness.
Okay, can we NOT with the fucking Maxim Hot 100 talk? It’s irritating and adds nothing to the conversation. Nobody cares about your boner.
We are not living in puritan rule. You are not the boss of me, I said what I want, and the proof is in the pudding somebody certainly care about my takes.
It’s not puritanical to think that comparing the attractiveness of two women is stupid misogyny. You seem to share Joss’ inability to understand the nuance of gender politics. “Sex positive” does not equal “hot or not” rankings.
That certainly fits a pattern of behavior. James Marsters has talked about how Whedon got in his face over Spike being popular enough to be brought back even though Whedon initially wanted to kill him off. Which puts all the indignities Spike suffered throughout Buffy in an interesting light.
then he should have hired Kristy Swanson to play Buffy. At that time few actresses were able to out pretty her.
She’s also not his “type.” Joss likes his actresses waifishly thin, and Charisma has boobs.
I’ve heard two different stories: First, that Joss wanted Bianca Lawson to play Cordelia, but she had to turn down the role because she was contracted to another series. Second, that Joss wanted a black actress to play Cordy, but the WB warned him that they were nervous about interracial relationships and Joss thought this would limit what he could do with Cordelia going forward.If some version of either or both are true, I could see Joss twisting it into an unfair resentment toward Charisma Carpenter, because he was stuck with her even though he had his heart set on someone else and/or because, from his performatively progressive perspective, she’d gotten the role because of her race rather than her talent.
I also heard a long time ago that Bianca Lawson was offered the part of Cordelia.After seeing her play Kendra, I couldn’t see it.Then I saw her in the first episode of American Horror Story and *could* totally see it.She has been so ageless for so long that she was successfully playing teenagers for something like two decades.Fun fact, her father is married to Beyonce’s mother.
Part of that was probably the horrible Jamaican accent they made her do.
Yeah, the whole character of Kendra didn’t do her any favors. The accent was weird, the writing of her intro episodes wasn’t great, and the styling of the character was kind of incoherent, where she was supposed to be this single-minded warrior in contrast to Buffy, but she was even more heavily made up and fashionably attired. Her “only shirt” was a stylish, low-cut purple crop top?
We sure Lawson isn’t a vampire?
Ah, yes, I read that he wanted to cast a black actress to play Cordelia and Bianca Lawson fits that bill, but the network was not ready for that.
Given Buffy’s infamously horrible track record with non-white characters, I think we dodged a bullet with Bianca Lawson not getting cast as Cordelia.
Probably just good old fashioned market research. Their targeted research probably indicated that the audience from Buffy responded well to the Cordelia character, so they wanted some carryover to the spinoff.
I think you may have meant to reply to Liebkartoffel’s comment wondering why Cordelia was on Angel.
I mean, have you seen her? I would think its pretty obvious why.Not that that is a dig at Carpenter, I thought she showed acting ability at least on par with most of the Buffy/Angel Cast, particularly on Angel. It’s just the way it was and is when it comes to physical attractiveness in Hollywood.
She’s hot. She can’t act.
Did the network force him to cast Carpenter in Angel as well? Seems weird to work with someone for nearly a decade across two shows when you’ve detested them from the start.
As I understand it, Carpenter got cast in Angel because Joss developed the show with fellow Buffy producer David Greenwalt, and Greenwalt was a big fan of Cordelia and pushed for her to be a part of the show. I always assumed it was more than a coincidence that as soon as Greenwalt left the show at the end of season 3, the writing for the character got really weird and tensions behind the scenes apparently got much worse.
I was going to bring up Margulies vs Panjabi on The Good Wife, but that didn’t run for a decade and one of the reasons we know those two don’t get along is that they stopped filming scenes together (particularly notable when they had to compose them together in a shot for their parting scene).
David Greenwalt seemed to be a real champion for Cordy and Charisma and really enjoyed writing for her.Remember, the very first season he wasn’t there, they decided their grand season long plot was going to be Evil Cordy and most likely going to kill her off anyway.
If that is true, why cast her in the spinoff? It’s not like Buffy needed her, so just remove her at that point.
There are people who are really and sincerely nice to the people they like and really horrible to anyone they don’t like. I had a friend like that. They were incredibly kind to me and I didn’t understand the dislike others had for them until I actually saw them “in action.” It was like night and day.
Yes! I don’t understand why this is hard for some people. It’s not black or white.
Sorry to say but you were being manipulated, extensively too, it sounds like. My mom is like that, and until you see it, you wouldn’t believe it either.
I learned her tricks, but I’m not a lunatic sociopath like she is, so I make sure to avoid manipulating people. It’s also quite helpful for seeing right through people’s lies and deceit.
I’ve seen some speculation that you also have to look at the size of the star – He’s not an idiot and he’s not so famous that he could pull this type of stuff on established stars like Robert Downey Jr. Even Gal Gadot has said it wasn’t her experience. But Ray Fisher, Charisma Carpenter, and Michelle Trachtenberg are not big stars. Even Sarah Michelle Geller and David Boreanaz probably had more pull and more sway. As a result their experiences were likely different.
Not sure where you’re coming from with regards to Gadot who has specifically talked about her negative experience working with Whedon
She said that when she complained it was corrected. That’s all I meant. It seems pretty clear that Whedon pulled this stuff the most with those who didn’t have the profile to fight back.
The rumour (which was around before the Ray Fischer stuff I believe) was that the tensions were due to his dumb “The Flash falls face first into her tits” gag (very similar to the “Bruce falls face first into Nat’s tits” gag from Age of Ultron). She didn’t want to film it, he was a dick and demanded she film it, she went above him and in the end a body double did the shot. Not sure if it’s all 100% accurate but it fits with him being a dick and her description of it being “corrected”
Charisma Carpenter in no way has pull in much. She was specific.
Correction: Gal Gadot said that she had an experience that “wasn’t great” as well, but that she handled it right then and there by going through the proper channels. James Marsters, Amber Benson, Nicholas Brendan, and Julie Benz have also expressed or at least hinted at having negative experiences.
About that Gal Gadot thing…https://www.hindustantimes.com/hollywood/gal-gadot-refused-to-shoot-scene-that-sexualised-wonder-woman-director-joss-whedon-brought-in-body-double-report/story-K999TPCgbym6ECWISwhLzM.htmlhttps://www.nme.com/en_asia/news/film/gal-gadot-justice-league-joss-whedon-experience-2842927https://screenrant.com/justice-league-gal-gadot-confirms-joss-whedon-issue/
If people were willing to work with Harvey Weinstein and David O’ Russel, and I don’t believe for one second that anyone in the business didn’t know about they’re actions and behavior, then I don’t see people having any issues working with Whedon.
I imagine it’s the genius/asshole situation. Where they’re charming half the time and make you their best friend, while being a huge asshole at other times. Being witty and funny and charming and then a raging dick. The friend who is a blast to hang out with until he crosses a line but you keep spending time with because, generally, the good outweighs the bad. You both love him and hate him. At least that’s how Nicholas Brendon described it. He largely collaborated Carpenter’s account but also admitted to still liking Whedon.
Are we really pretending we don’t know that the vast majority of Hollywood would gladly eat a live baby for the chance to headline a prestige project
I’m guessing he plays favorites—if he likes you he’s a pleasure to work with, if he hates you it sounds like he’s an unrelentingly abusive asshole.
Some directors run things a bit like a cult. They get huge buy in from their cast and crew, who may not really get until later that they way they were treated wasn’t great. Also, cult situations are highly hierarchical, so one of the things that motivates people to commit and try to advance is the idea that the people at the top are basking in the Leader’s love. So I’m sure some people were treated really well, while others were left with deep grudges.
Nicky Brendan’s response feels 100% this. He clearly still has fondness for Joss but also clearly wasn’t always treated well. Which is a shame given dude’s personal struggles.
Yeah, the Variety article said that because it was low budget with unknown actors, it was like high school with cliques.
Yeah. Since this started, I’ve thought a lot about John Hughes. I wonder if we’d be having a similar discussion about him if he was still alive and active. Maybe there’s something about people who have such a keen interest in high school social dynamics that they wind up recreating them in real life.
He seems like the type that plays favorites one minute and singles out others for his wrath and those working with him are grateful he doesn’t play that game on them.Even his form stunt coordinator, Jeff Pruitt who was with him from the beginning of Buffy talked how he played that kind of game to him.
I’m sure talent has played a role in it. He’s a piece of shit, but he’s also a good writer and director. Buffy, Angel, and Firefly were good shows with interesting characters and uniquely plotted episodes. He wasn’t the only creative force on those shows, but he was the main one. And, he nailed The Avengers. He did want Marvel wanted while giving fans an entertaining movie that gave ample time to most of its characters’ arc (Hawkeye got the shaft, but he’d get better roles in later movies) and was thrilling and funny. His success with The Avengers was THE reason why Warner Bros. wanted him to take over on Justice League. I’m sure a lot of his frequent collaborators kept coming back because they knew they’d get a juicy role working for him.
The ones he hated (or who didn’t suck up to him sufficiently) were punished. His favourites were given special treatment like weekends at Whedon’s place reciting Shakespeare (which sounds like the embarrassing spectacle ever but was apparently not a punishment).
The punishment is watching the result. I mean, I like Shakespeare. I like interesting takes on his work. The Whedon Much Ado was not interesting.
Branagh is not perfect, even as the premier adapter of Shakespeare’s works. But you would be VERY hard pressed to outdo his Much Ado.
It’s honestly one of my favorite Shakespeare screen adaptations. I kinda love Michael Keaton’s Dogberry in a goofy way. I’ve even grown to love Keanu Reeves’ performance and the unspoken “dude” at the end of every line.OK, laugh at for the sheer weirdness, but still.
It is my personal fav adaptation. Everyone’s so amazing in it. Even Keanu, who isn’t very good! I actually think his not greatness adds to Don John, who is pretty dull as Willy Shakes villains go.(His awkwardness also makes me enjoy him as Harker in Dracula. His accent is terrible but that makes his performance unintentionally hilarious. Which is a relief in such a po-faced movie.)
Much Ado was (IIRC) right around or just after Dracula, makes sense the performances scan similar. Hadn’t really considered that until now.I honestly have a lot of respect for Reeves, he’s apparently one of the nicest guys on the planet and is known for being very good to his fans, casts, crews, pretty much everyone. I don’t honestly think I’ve ever seen a “Keanu’s such an asshole” kind of story about him that was serious. I could swear I’ve read interviews where he fully accepts that his performances aren’t exactly on the level of his costars and considers them things to grow from, not to define his career. He’s definitely found his groove with later movies.
Dude’s personal tragedies alone are just… Oof. That he’s still a good person in the face of life’s kicks earns him a lot of my respect. And while he’s not a *good* actor per se, he has a very clear and present humanity that helps sell a lot of his work. Like Neo as written is a little too archetypal. Keanu makes him seem more like a person.
He probably treats his favorites well, and other repeat collaborators are willing to put up with his bullshit because they believe in the work.
The problem, I think, is that this kind of behavior by an “auteur” , tho it should never have been acceptable, was absolutely seen as acceptable by many people in the entertainment industry. Alfred Hitchcock, Stanley Kubrick, Bernardo Bertoluci, they were all highly respected in spite of thier shitty behavior. There’s an idea that a REAL actor will suffer for thier art, and should be willing to suffer if they want to be respected.Directors are under incredible pressure, deadlines need to be met, things are constantly going wrong and need to be worked around or altered, and people can sympathize with that and forgive angry behavior to an extent, which of course just normalizes that anger.
What JohnW said — if an abusive asshole is perceived as “a genius” or successful, people will want to work with him regardless.
Stanley Kubrick never had any trouble finding major actors willing to put up with his abuse, after all….
How many actors worked with Kubrick repeatedly? The only one that comes to mind for me right now is Peter Sellers, who had a pretty big asshole reputation himself.
Is he sincerely good to them or is it conscious manipulation?The Variety article says that he had a cult of personality he cultivated around him — an “in-group” of people whom he favored and an “out-group” of people whom he bullied and was verbally abusive towards. And if you were in the in-group, Joss would seem like the best boss ever, which is probably why a lot of other people — like Anthony Head, Alan Tudyk, and others — never noticed him being abusive towards other people.It’s, unfortunately, very common behavior among bullies and abusers.
He also had the in-group over two, three times a week for dinner. Like, I could be working with my very best friends and I wouldn’t want to go to dinner with them three times a week after having long days on set. It seemed those who didn’t accept his invitations were definitely in the out-group.
The Variety piece explicitly touched on that – he didn’t treat everyone like shit. He had his favorites that he would shower with praise and adulation, and he would suck up to the people above him.
Why do people work with David O Russell?
There’s a story Simon Pegg once told about his meeting Joss Whedon for the first time. He went up to Joss and introduced himself and said what a big fan he was, and Joss was dismissive and jerky to him. Then a few minutes later, someone told Joss that Simon Pegg was the guy behind Shaun of the Dead, and Joss proceeded to fawn all over him. (FWIW when Simon Pegg related this story he didn’t seem upset that Joss had been a jerk to him) But I’ve thought about that anecdote a lot lately and I think it probably says a lot about Joss as a person – really cool and friendly to people he respects or can get something from; kind of a jerk to everyone else.
What I wonder is how Joss didn’t know who Simon was.
This was right when SotD was coming out, so unless you were British or a giant Spaced fan, I can see not knowing who Simon was. (I am a giant Spaced fan, so.)
As of the time of publication, Whedon has yet to speak on the allegations.
But when he does, you can expect his statement to be endearingly quippy, if a little generic and not entirely rooted in the character.
But anyway, enough about Age of Ultron.
And undoubtedly there will be a very vocal group of people going way too wild in support of it.
God damn it people, give this comment more likes, because it’s the best summation of Whedon’s writing style I’ve ever read.
Please, please: Other people have burned him more consistently, for much longer, without concrete proof but a lot – a LOT – of industry hearsay and conjecture. I am simply dancing in the ashes left by others.
This comes back to a thing that I’ve been saying ever since these allegations broke; Joss Whedon is petty. He thinks he’s right about everything and everyone else is wrong, and he holds the deepest fucking grudge if someone deigns to challenge that in any way. And worst of all, he lords his power over those who don’t have the pull or influence he does.
This is why I never thought of him as King of the Nerds, because he represents everything insidious about geek culture.
so he’s Trump crossed with an incel. Awesome.
Well, no, Whedon actually has talent.
yep good point.
You might want to expand your lexicon of shitty things.
Can we please please please not?
See, the argument that he’s infinitely petty and carries a grudge if anybody questions him is exactly what I’d say makes him perfect to be named King of the Nerds. It earns him the right sit on the Iron Throne of Nerds (A giant tablet-arm school desk, made of hundreds of other school desks, melted together.)
Not for nothing was The Trio the main antagonist group on the Buffy season where Whedon had the least influence.
If Warren was Marti Noxon’s subtle way of taking digs at Joss, that’d almost redeem Season 6 for me.
Dude, as of a few years ago he was STILL bitching about Donald Sutherland not caring enough about his performance in the 92 Buffy. He holds on to this shit for decades.
Hah, well, Buffy was his baby, his brainchild, and the movie was a disappointment for all.
He has that in common with a lot of posters here, unsurprisingly.
Isn’t that why you should think of him as King of the Nerds
I first got this impression of him when he was in a Twitter feud with Jonah Ray. I don’t love Jonah Ray but his telling of the incident that sparked their feud just felt so true.
That makes a lot of sense of the reports from both Marsters and Carpenter about how he acted when something they did forced him to have to change his plans for the show. (In case you don’t know, the original plan for Spike was to kill him off halfway through S2, but Marsters’s portrayal of Spike proved so compelling and popular that it was decided – not sure by whom – that Spike had to live on. Apparently this made Whedon very hostile towards Marsters in those early days.)
Good going Cordelia, really opened the floodgates.
Ohhh, that scene :’(
It seemed extra appropriate for the topic.
How has her career been going? She appeared in the first season of Veronica Mars. And guested on one Supernatural episode with James Marsters. Since then?
She’s steadily working. Does the occasional TV Guest spot. She was in the Expendables movies as Jason Statham’s love interest. She did a 50 Shades of Grey Mockbuster in there, too. Nothing big outside of those Expendables movies, though.
I remember asking Whedon at a Buffy Q&A if there was “a deeper story” about why Seth Green was leaving the show, and he deflected, simply citing that “Seth wants to go do what Seth does.”
I haven’t thought about that moment in years, but now, I really want to know what happened.
Even his biggest detractors aren’t accusing him of any kind of improper sexual conduct, just that he was a totally insufferable asshole. Of course, that kind of behavior isn’t tolerated well today, but was pretty much par for the course 30 or 40 years ago. There are horror stories about the behavior of certain mid-Twentieth Century directors who terrorized their actors to get the scene they wanted—names like Hitchcock and Welles come to mind.Whedon sounds like an old school director, meaning he was born a generation or two too late. I’m just spit-balling here, but my guess is that the next movie deal he makes will include a studio requirement for some sensitivity training.
Just because he wasn’t being “sexual” doesn’t mean that pressuring an actress about her pregnancy wasn’t MASSIVELY crossing a line, we’re way past “being an asshole” here.
Pregnancy harassment is still sexual harassment.
No argument here.
Is it? Genuinely asking. I wouldn’t have thought they were the same thing, even if they are equally bad.
It is, although the Pregnancy Discrimination Act was passed to clarify a lot of issues, so at least from a legal perspective most cases and sanctions are done under the PDA.
I’d say being a totally insufferable asshole is plenty wrong these days, as it was back in the last century. I’m just pointing out that the sort of behavior we’re talking about was once something that would have been kept under wraps by the studios. Even so, it was still bad behavior.
There are horror stories about the behavior of certain mid-Twentieth Century directors who terrorized their actors to get the scene they wanted—names like Hitchcock and Welles come to mind.
Yeah, but that’s the issue. It was never OK but now it doesn’t have to be hidden or tolerated anymore. If you read any histories of those old filmmakers or listen to something like You Must Remember This, you will realize that most of those filmmakers were absolute monsters and many of the people who worked with them, especially actresses, were left with mental issues and substance abuse problems for the rest of their lives.
Even his biggest detractors aren’t accusing him of any kind of improper sexual conduct, just that he was a totally insufferable asshole.
He actually admitted to his ex-wife (and is confirmed in the article by other crew members) that he had multiple affairs with young actresses. None of the regulars, it appears, but definitely women whose jobs (and, ultimately, careers) were in his hands.
His ex wife’s original letter said he had one affair, with whom we are not told. The wife was also jealous of attention he paid to young actresses but she did not say actual affairs occurred.
What are you talking about?
Joss admitted that for the next decade and a half, he hid multiple
affairs and a number of inappropriate emotional ones that he had with
his actresses, co-workers, fans and friends, while he stayed married to
me.
Source:https://www.thewrap.com/joss-whedon-feminist-hypocrite-infidelity-affairs-ex-wife-kai-cole-says/
That is completely his ex-wife’s account and not anything Whedon has gone on the record with to any credible news source.
Oh, give us a break. That open letter sounds all the more credible the more we know about Whedon.
I wasn’t saying it was OK to be that way, bad behavior is bad behavior. Whedon definitely appears to be a douche bag at the very least. Forty years ago the studio would have swept it under the rug. He needs to realize that, unlike in the days of Alfred Hitchcock and Orson Welles, that crap doesn’t fly these days.
40 years ago, the studios would have swept sexual assault under the rug too. Why would that be the standard we use?
Being misogynist goes beyond just “insufferable.”
True. Hopefully the powers that be in Hollywood make Whedon rein in his bullshit, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. As long as he keeps making money for them they won’t worry about his negative behavior. They tolerated Harvey Weinstein up to the point he was actually charged with rape, even though his behavior was an open secret for years.
Michelle Tractenberg’s statement kind of implies that he made sexual comments to a 15-year-old girl, and he reportedly slept with people who worked for him. Both of those are actually kind of warning signs.
Even without a sexual element, “gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable” behavior is enough to get most people fired.
Oh, completely agreed. I wasn’t meaning to imply that the rest of Whedon’s behavior was acceptable. Just that there is some evidence that, while probably not on the level of someone like Weinstein or Cosby, some of Joss’ bad behavior may have had sexual elements to it, which the original poster was claiming there weren’t.
Even off-color jokes can qualify depending on the audience. For instance, dirty jokes aren’t likely to offend a bunch of sailors on liberty but telling the same joke to a bunch of Girl Scouts selling cookies would definitely be crossing the line.It pays to know your audience.Not being overtly sexual doesn’t mean he wasn’t creating a hostile workplace. Just sheer belligerence is enough to create an uncomfortable environment. Add favoritism (he obviously doesn’t treat everyone that way or nobody would work for him), inappropriate language, and bullying and you definitely have enough for an investigation or a lawsuit.
Of course, everyone was too afraid to lose their careers to pursue an investigation or a lawsuit, until Ray Fisher.
I think there’s more it’s more likely complaints might actually be heard since Weinstein got what was coming to him.
It’s similar to Ellen in that it’s more about the gulf between his sunny public image and unkind private behavior. He made a feminist show about kids confronting the horrors of high school while behaving like a high school bully on set, sleeping with subordinates, and making unprofessional comments to an employee about her pregnancy.
Sadly, it’s not “old-school” though, the industry is still rife with this behavior. The fact that it gets called out a bit more these days doesn’t mean it’s not going on, and that it’s not widespread.
There is a reason that pregnancy-based discrimination is against the law. A person doesn’t have to commit sexual violence to be a sexist misogynist.
How can you not love Charisma Carpenter? She’s fantastic. Shame, Joss. Shame.
I saw her at one of the last conventions that I went to before…everything happened. I didn’t talk to them then due to shyness and the fact that the actress who had played my favorite Doctor Who companion of all time was in the neighboring booth, but just from how I saw her and Amber Benson interacting with convention staff and fans, they seemed like extremely kind, charming, likeable people. And both did a good job acting from what I saw on screen. Joss’ apparent dislike and treatment of them is just baffling to me.
Which DW actress?
So this is a bit of a deep cut, so I swear that I’m not claiming this as my favorite Doctor Who companion just for hipster points, but it was Wendy Padbury, who played the 1960s 2nd-Doctor companion Zoe Heriot, a genius astrophysicist and mathematician who, among other things, destroyed a cyberman fleet with math, caused a computer to self-destruct by talking to it largely just to prove that she could, and also single-handedly beat up a superhero. The Doctor respected her intelligence immensely, as she would often correct his math, and she even helped pilot the TARDIS often. She also was extremely arrogant and had pretty poor social skills, as she would usually act stiff and formal. As an autistic physicist, it’s not very difficult to see why I liked her so quickly. It’s a shame that so many of her episodes have been lost.I did get her and Frazier Hines (who played long-running 2nd Doctor companion Jamie McCrimmon) to sign my DVD of The Invasion, which was cool. There was also a girl cosplaying as Zoe nearby, who apparently hadn’t realized that Padbury was going to be at the convention who was evidently extremely thrilled to meet her, which was pretty sweet to watch.https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Zoe_Heriothttps://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2011/11/a-companion-to-the-doctors-companions-zoe-heriot
I got to meet Charisma Carpenter at a play that James Marsters was doing in LA (written by the wife of David Fury!) and can confirm she is extremely sweet and approachable.
I could love her with both hands.
Hell, it’s right there in her name.
Ok this is why we need to insist on specific allegations when we’re cancelling people. The media coverage had me convinced that Whedon was some Weinstein like monster but the specific allegations are apparently “he didn’t want to hire Carpenter as he thought she was a bad actor. He was then super mean to her and constantly criticized her acting. He also had an ‘improper verbal exchange’ with at least one other actress.” I don’t think anyone should have to suffer a hostile workplace but this just sounds like half the directors in hollywood who are all mega egotistical dickheads. Imagine her trying to work with Werner Herzog lol. Or hell, in any commercial kitchen.
“Are you going to keep it?” is a question that should never be asked of a woman by anyone other than the father of the baby (and even then, tread lightly). Just because he wasn’t roofie-ing (sp?) girls left & right doesn’t let him off the hook.
Definitely not, especially when in a position of power, but I do think there’s reasonable questions that can be asked depending on the circumstances.I rented a house with some friends a few years ago. Two of them were in a relationship together, and the girl accidentally got pregnant. I had heard rumors from our other friends that they were expecting, but the couple had not told me themselves. I had also heard that they were telling people that they wanted my bedroom for their kid.So when they finally did tell me (I was one of the last people to officially find out), my question was “what are we going to do about our living situation?”. At the time we were all in our early to mid 20’s, a baby in what was essentially a college party house was not going to work. I was also worried about them trying to have me removed from the lease.Sure enough, my suspicion was right and they tried to go behind my back to get the homeowner to kick me out of the house.
I think I was right to ask that instead of congratulating them.
Read Carpenter’s statement… she was very specific.
Which is why the working conditions in “half” of Hollywood need to change. No one should suffer abuse in their workplace. We need more sunshine on the problem to let the non-abusive people get their due (and not be driven out by the abusive dickheads), and to improve working conditions. You don’t get change by ignoring and belittling the problem.
Life needs to change. This is how life is for everyone. Constant bullying, narcissism, selfishness, and ostracism resulting in PTSD and depression and isolation.
that “inappropriate exchange” was with an actual, literal child. jesus fucking christ.
Who’s “we”? What does “canceling” mean?
Werner Herzog is probably fine to work with if you aren’t named Klaus Kinski.
Whedon’s reaction was for shit and shouldn’t be allowed, but the additional information on Carpenter actually makes him look slightly less the villain in that case. If the person who wrecks your plans for a season of television by getting pregnant just happens to be the lead the studio forced on you and who you didn’t want to keep working with, then it makes sense that the immediate reaction to learning of her pregnancy is not “That’s wonderful! I’m so happy for you!” It’s not like he treated her like best pals until she got pregnant, and then turned on her. The answer is definitely not “Are you going to keep it?” [Hint: unless, maybe, you’re the child’s father, no woman is going to tell a man she’s pregnant unless she plans to have a baby. Assume she does, because it’s less embarrassing for her to correct that if you’re wrong. Usually, if she wants you to be the pal that drives her to and from the clinic, she’ll probably lead with “I need to get an abortion.”] But him acting coldly and writing her off the show at the end of the season makes a lot more sense if he didn’t want her as a lead in the first place.
This is a woman who had been a lead on two different shows of his for something like 5 years and over 100 episodes of television. The fact that he would still be resentful for how she was cast is so immature and disgusting. There’s no way that that makes him look less like a villain.
It was an improper verbal exchange with an underage actress that led to a concerted effort from the crew to keep him from being alone with her. (this article leaves out the fact that Michelle Trachtenberg was 15 when she started working on Buffy). The implications of that are more troubling than standard Hollywood douchebaggery.
Consider the context, though: The “one other actress” Joss had the “improper verbal exchange” with was a child at the time, and whatever he said disturbed her so much that he wasn’t allowed to be alone in the same room with her anymore. Considering that he was the showrunner, that means what he did was serious enough to get the network higher-ups involved, since no one on-set would normally have the authority to restrict the showrunner’s movements like that. This was clearly some shitty behavior even by Hollywood’s usual standards.As for Carpenter: she was on those shows for seven years, Whedon hated her from the start for something she had no control over, and he only got more abusive when he found out she was having a kid and thus needed to keep the job even more. Why the fuck shouldn’t she speak out about that kind of behavior?
I would assume you have never worked in the film industry and truly don’t understand the toxicity they are speaking of. It’s been rampant for years/decades and and has been chalked up to that’s show business. That’s bullshit, the business doesn’t have to work that way and no place of work should allow the treatment that has been common places in the film and tv industry. It doesn’t have to rise to the level of Harvey Weinstein to be considered inappropriate and harmful. I have been waiting for this to be addressed in our industry and I’m happy to see this behavior being called out.
I always thought it strange that SMG never did a single episode commentary for the DVDs (not even the special edition box set). After reading that Variety article, now its entirely clear* why she didn’t.But knowing their working relationship had frayed *that* early is mind blowing.*(It also puts some angry sniping Whedon and Freddie Prinze Jr. engaged in with each other over 20 to 15 years ago in a clearer context)
(It also puts some angry sniping Whedon and Freddie Prinze Jr. engaged in with each other over 20 to 15 years ago in a clearer context)If you don’t mind, could you elaborate on this please?
Sure: Prinze was doing an interview with Zap2it for one of his own projects, and it veered over to SMG and BtVS. Bear in mind this is circa 2003 and right after SMG quit the show. Allegedly, when she did so (via the Entertainment Weekly cover), she had not notified anyone on the show beforehand.So (allegedly – but given the circumstances, not hard to believe) there were a number of people on the show side extremely PO’ed with her. There was ‘anonymous’ griping about her to the press.So Prinze said the following (I’ll include the quote in full):“A lot of people owe Sarah a lot for doing that show, and she doesn’t always get the credit she deserves. She’s a very strong woman, because she deals with a lot of nonsense, and instead of that nonsense, she should be thanked — and she’s not. That’s the reason she won’t be coming back.”“Sarah’s the most appreciative person in the world, and if that environment would have remained the way it would six years ago, she would go back, because she’s loyal. But things change, and people’s egos get in the way sometimes. They make poor decisions.”“I don’t agree with it, but I understand it, and I just pray I’m never guilty of it.”“And even if she’s not, nobody knew, because she commits. She’s badass.”Whedon fans were none to kind to Prinze on BtVS and pro-Whedon message boards. To a lesser extent, it also extended to SMG, with accusations that she was being less than grateful. In light of the recent developments, it provides a more complicated context. Anyway, when asked to comment on the remarks, Whedon was disparaging at Prinze’s expense.(I can’t find his exact responses; but I remember it was via a UK interview). The one I *do* remember was him saying (paraphrasing) “yeah well, I remember what you did last summer, buddy.”Like I mentioned, I always thought it odd SMG never did any Buffy related work. When Whedon did the video games and (amazing) animated series promo, both times he was able to get the entire cast (even Boreanaz) *except* SMG. In both cases, they hired the same actress to do the voice work.And as I love DVD commentary (especially when actors explain their process in key scenes/episodes) I confess to being initially put off that she didn’t do one for a single episode throughout the entire run. She also didn’t appear for the Buffy/Angel roundtable discussion included in the special edition box set – and that was populated by core cast members from both shows, I believe.So it was a massive surprise she appeared for the 10-year reunion discussion at the Paley Center in 2008.Now we know why.
As someone who likes short seasons, I noted the mention of a grueling 24 episode season contributing to that toxic work environment. Even though young TV of the ‘50s and ‘60s had shows with over 30 episodes a season, there’s little reason today why series can’t be 6 to 10 eps a year. Better for the cast and crew and, in my opinion, better for quality.
That was still the show model at the time. It was back when networks would play reruns while shows would be on breaks because there was no other way for viewers to watch episodes they might have missed. (MAYBE you taped the episode on your VCR when it aired if you couldn’t watch, but if you failed to do so, it’s not like you could go watch it on the internet.) This was also pre-prestige TV, which started with cable networks who went in on the quarter of the year model (no more than 13 episodes a season).Broadcast networks didn’t switch to short seasons until they realized they didn’t have to show reruns anymore and could instead invest in more shows with shorter seasons to fill programming time.
Has Nicholas Brendon said anything about this?
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/buffy-nicholas-brendon-charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-b1803918.html
I am very curious to hear from anyone in the Firefly cast. I see the comments about how Joss may have treated “small-time stars” from big names, but most of the regulars on Firefly weren’t huge stars; Baldwin had done movies and Ron Glass had played a memorable tv character but for the most part they were all pretty unkown. But in all the BTS material I’ve seen, everyone described the conditions, though rigorous (long hours). I’m really wondering if that was the case, or only the case for some of the cast or what.
Wow, that’ll teach me to multitask – that should have been:
“…comments about how Joss may have treated “small-time stars” DIFFERENTLY from big names”
and
“…everyone described the conditions, though rigorous (long hours) AS LOVING AND FAMILY-LIKE”.
Woof.
I don’t know about anyone else but I *highly* doubt you’d hear a peep from Baldwin. Unless it was to complain about the PC Police coming after Joss or whatever the fuck sub-James-Woods Twitter nonsense.
I think it’s pretty clear that the Firefly cast were all handpicked favorites…and most of them were 30-something working actors, not 20-somethings on their first job. Plus…Fox isn’t the WB.
They may not have been big names, but they were mostly older than the leads on Buffy, and had been working longer. I’d be interested to hear if Summer Glau has anything to say, but Whedon seems to like her, so he might have treated her better.
My non-insiders take is that it’s not small stars vs big stars. It’s people he liked and people he didn’t like. Charisma Carpenter was treated badly because she got pregnant and that didn’t fall into his plans. The Justice League set was awful because he was brought in and it wasn’t his cast. Firefly was a happy set because he cast the whole thing and they didn’t far enough along for one actor to break out or to do something that upset his plans.
Ive wondered the same. I follow jewel statite and fillion on Instagram and theres been not even an oblique reference. I too have been thinking about all of those loving family stories about the Firelfly production and I believe he told jewel to gain 30 lbs for the kaylee character, in contrast to him supposedly not wanting to hire carpenter for being “fat”. Did you hear the story about the cast/crew saving the big red button from “out of gas” and presenting it to him on the last shoot so he could “call them home” some day? Like all this sounds like people going out of their way to say that they liked him, like working with him. So which is it? Both? Neither? And did the firefly bunch consciously decide to not say anything?
“So which is it?”It’s not a binary issue. As many have said here, as Nicholas Brendan has said, as we know from being people: humans are complicated.
Ron Glass will be a difficult reply to get (he’s dead several years)And I’m pretty sure asshole Adam Baldwin ain’t going to come for any comments that supports #metoo or anything
I’m conflicted about these responses. I agree that it might be informative to hear from others who worked with him. But where does it end? So let’s hear from the Dollhouse folks. He produced Agents of SHIELD, let’s hear from them. Maybe the Dr. Horrible folks have something to say? I mean… Who cares if every other show he made was squeaky clean? That doesn’t excuse his prior malfeasance. Is the point of bringing up Firefly to cast doubt on Carpenter’s claims, which have been fairly well supported by this point? If not, then what?
Carpenter’s claims essentially break down to Joss got mad at her and said mean things to her. She got a tattoo, yeah waking up one morning to find out one of the actresses on your show got a tattoo without asking is a lot bigger deal for a Producer then people might think. People have been known to get fired for that along with hair cuts, gaining more then 5 pounds and other things we don’t even think about in the course of our day. The bigger the star the more leeway you have, but the problem remains that it takes two to tango. Just look at the effort Johnny Depp went through to get himself fired from 21 Jumpstreet or How bad it had to get with Charlie Sheen, before he got himself fired.We are never going to get the other side of this, because Joss Whedon isn’t going to respond. Like Amber Benson said that Joss approached her death with its the greatest thing since sliced bread. In his mind it was, because it kicks off the Dark Willow end of the season. Approaching someone like that isn’t my personal choice, but its a far cry from what Charisma claims.At the same time Amy Acker was all I never saw or heard anything like this and nothing like this ever happened to me. So the question becomes are these incidents a common thing or are they singular incidents over the course of a decade? Events where she does something and he reacts in a less then professional manner? Thats what we can find out. It doesn’t change all evidence points to Joss being at times less then nice to people. People still have to act in a professional manner, but this really isn’t enough to immediately go he needs to be banned for life.
He wasn’t banned for life. These accusations have been around for a long time. And dick-all got done about it. It took a LOT of shit to happen to get us to this place. He has been working for many years post-accusation. And he’s obviously not alone. Idiots bitch about “cancel culture” but what the fuck ACTUALLY happens to the OVERWHELMING majority of these jerks? NOTHING.How many more people have to confirm Carpenter’s view for you to get that yes, it was common for Joss to bully those he disliked? “Are these incidents a common thing?” Yes. Clearly.
the rule behind Whedon not being allowed alone in the same room as
Trachtenberg was due to “improper verbal exchange between Whedon and
Trachtenberg.”
I can so totally believe this. Whedon seems just like the kind of guy who thinks his intellect is as big as his success and therefore he can say anything and still be charming and funny.
The test of his intellect would be to know when not to say anything. Epic fail evidently.
So many these stories revolve around accusations of mean-spirited joking, and defenses of “I was just joking” and “They don’t understand my sense of humor.”Why does everyone think they have to be Shecky Fucking Greene? How about do your job and then go home? Save the comedy routine for friends and family.
“Whedon was pushed by the network to cast Carpenter against his wishes. The person recalls Whedon picking on Carpenter, with some of the writers of the show following Whedon’s lead, criticizing her acting.”O the sheer horror! My thoughts and prayers are with her and her family during this awful time.
It was painfully obvious how some people here were itching to let Whedon off the hook the first chance they get, and the comment section for this one just confirms that.Reminds me of the Depp fanboys who still think he’s an innocent dude being wronged by “SJW Hollywood”.
Johnny Depp did nothing wrong. Amber Heard lied.
Not that I think Depp is innocent but hasn’t Heard also been accused of abuse by a former partner?
See, the issue is that some of the more disturbed fanboys think that Heard being abusive somehow means Depp is 100% innocent.
Sometimes both people can be abusive towards each other. It’s not like it cancels out the abuse.
I was a huge Whedon fan for a very long time. Like to the degree that his name attached to a project was enough for me to give it a lot more of a shot than I’d usually give any other project. And most of the time, I felt like that paid off. Dollhouse was not great, but it had some good enough stuff that kept me invested.I started to sour on him with the combination of Ultron and a horrible little movie he wrote that was released digitally called In Your Eyes, which I resent having paid to stream it was so shitty. (And not because it was poorly directed or acted. The script was BAD.) He hasn’t really done anything that I’ve considered good since then.As to defending him, NO, fuck that. I don’t want to see his name attached to a new project for a VERY long time, if ever again. (Yes, I know there was that show he got fired from that’s going to be on HBO or whatever. I wasn’t even sure whether I was going to watch that BEFORE Carpenter’s allegations came out. Now I find it… unlikely.) If he is ever allowed to work in entertainment again, it’s a one strike situation – he repeats past abusive behavior JUST ONCE, and it’s goodbye forever. However, we also can’t discount his impact on TV and pop culture. He may be an asshole, but the pop culture landscape has been indelibly changed by what he did on Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. (Just like Hitchcock and Kubrick were massively important to the history of filmmaking even though they were monumentally abusive bastards.)
I meant some people in the comments seem really eager to drop this whole thing and just pretend like Whedon’s just too much of a visionary and demanded a lot from some of his Buffy actors, like he just had some high standards of quality or something. Which is gross.
There are a lot of people who can’t cope with the cognitive dissonance that accompanies finding out that an artist you’ve loved is a true piece of shit and will make excuses for them so they don’t have to do that kind of processing within themselves.Personally, I believe I will still be able to consume the Whedon related media I already own. (Eventually.) There will be an increased taint to it knowing that the primary driving creative force was such a shit, but then again, there are a lot of other problematic elements to most of his work that I already recognized even before this came out.
It’s tough. I love a LOT of Woody Allen’s work. Even Manhattan, which is *textually* pretty iffy. Ditto Polanski, especially the horror/thriller stuff. Ditto Hitchcock. All three are/were awful human beings. I just live with that discomfort. What can you do, particularly when you find out about them after you’re invested in the work? It’s not as easy as “Stop liking what you like.” But you’re 100% right that some people can’t accept that their faves are problematic and so make excuses.
We’ve now heard from Ray Risher, Jason Momoa, Gal Gadot, Joss Whedon’s ex-wife, the stunt team from Buffy, James Marsters, Charisma Carpenter, Amber Benson, Michelle Trachtenberg, a “Firefly” writer, Nicholas Brendan, Julie Benz, a writer of Buffy novels and comics, and crew from “Buffy” and “Angel”. I guess all the racists who were bashing on Ray Fisher for speaking out and calling him a liar have to shut up now.
And what the hell are Xander and Cordelia doing sitting there? Kids on the stairs, makes sense, but how are the other kids supposed to have gotten there? Up over the railing and around the plant? Just so they can have a unique perch? As opposed to just sitting further up on the stairs?
There is a crane a bit off-screen.
It was unfair that Michelle Trachtenberg’s comment left open the possibility of improper sexual conduct. Joss Whedon might be an asshole but that’s a far cry from a sexual harasser.
This does reframe him a bit as a run of the mill bitchy asshole who got way too much power, way too quickly.Nothing excuses his treatment of Carpenter, but I am a bit relieved that he’s more Tom Ashbrook than Alfred Hitchcock.
I have no trouble believing that Joss Whedon could be an asshole sometimes.
I suspect a lot of these big successful creators in Hollywood – men, women,
people of all races – can be assholes sometimes. I can imagine that it’s not
always easy working for Oprah Winfrey or Shonda Rhimes. We don’t hear the
accusations because no one wants to push an ‘angry Black woman stereotype’, but
I can’t imagine that you get to be that successful in Hollywood without
ruffling some feathers, or being a perfectionist who demands a lot of the
people they work with. We know it’s not easy working for Ellen DeGeneres. This
is just how it is sometimes working for a tempermantal perfectionist. And we
don’t know how easy CC herself was to work with. I have a feeling she was no
picnic herself.Now, it’s just too easy to paint these workplace tensions as a
gender thing or a race thing, or an abuse of white male power thing, where it’s
most likely just two very difficult people who don’t like each other and can’t
be adults and get along.
I bet John Cleese doesn’t give a shit about this.
I’m really starting to wonder if Whedon is just trying to hide and hope this blows over. (I seriously doubt it will be blowing over any year soon.) The longer he goes without addressing this, the more important it’s going to be for him to be VERY careful about HOW he addresses it. (Good lead to follow: Dan Harmon; bad leads to follow: Louis CK, Kevin Spacey.) And he’s gonna need to take a good LONG time out from Hollywood regardless. I’m talking years, and he’s gonna have to show us he’s worked on making himself a better man who will NEVER do this shit again.
This article says Charisma was often late for her call. That probably did not endear her to a showrunner working on a tight budget.