The good news is, I already went through my rant about the Mirror Universe in last week’s review, so there’s no need to repeat it here. The bad news is, well, we’re still in the Mirror Universe. Not all of “Terra Firma, Part 2” takes place on the dark side of the plot, but enough of it does to make the rest of the episode largely irrelevant. A conversation about the Kelpian distress signal, Booker proving himself useful, and Vance being decent to Saru; that’s more or less it. If you combined this with the first part of last week’s episode, you wouldn’t have a complete story, but it still would make more sense than what we ended up with. The split in this two part (and the fact that it’s a two parter at all) is so fundamentally baffling I can’t really imagine who thought it would be a good idea. TV shows do multi-episode storylines when they have a plot that can’t be conveyed in a single hour; they don’t dice up plots just create one from scratch.
But hey, this is Georgiou’s goodbye from Star Trek: Discovery, so maybe the writers thought they needed more time to give her a more fitting farewell. I just wish that farewell had played out like anything more than unnecessary padding. “Part 2” finds Georgiou back in her old tiara as the Empress of the Terran Empire. Having decided to spare Evil Michael Burnham’s life, thus changing the timeline, Georgiou goes about trying to rehabilitate her adopted daughter via torture. Lots of the time in the old agonizer, lots of speeches, lots of sneering. Eventually, Michael kneels and claims that she’s seen the error of her ways. She kills a lot of people to prove herself to Mom, but it’s all another lie, and this time, Georgiou is tired of her bullshit. The two fight, Georgiou wins, then gets zapped back to the present where Carl tells her she’s a nice person now, here’s your exit, don’t bother to write because time travel doesn’t work like that.
It is, to put it plainly, the thinnest of gruel. The writers are trying to use our investment in Georgiou’s relationship with non-evil Michael to show how the ex-Empress has softened; and I guess there’s a moderate amount of pathos in Georgiou trying, and failing, to avert a tragedy which continues to haunt her. But evil Michael isn’t our Michael. She’s barely a caricature. There’s no mystery, no suspense, in seeing her pretend to be “good” only to be “evil” again, because she exists in a ludicrous universe that makes no logical sense. Universes don’t have inherent moral qualities, but since the only reason the Mirror Universe has any appeal at all is in its nightmare-scenario version of “reality,” we have to keep pretending like it makes sense that there’s a place where most everyone is bad just ‘cause. But then, the more time various Trek shows spend on it, the more writers inevitably try and give it depth and ground it, and the more obvious it becomes that this is all a very silly idea that should’ve been retired ages ago.
Sigh. Sorry, I said I wasn’t going to do that rant again, and I meant it. It’s just, nothing that happens in the Mirror Universe matters. That’s both the fun and the downfall of it. Watching Evil Michael kill a bunch of people (well, we only see a few of the murders, the rest happen off screen) has some novelty value, but it illuminates nothing of her character, just as watching Evil Detmer sneer and then get stabbed in the neck tells us nothing about her. We’re ostensibly going through all of this to see if Georgiou really has changed, but the simple fact that she lives in the Prime Universe and hasn’t murdered anyone we liked should be more than enough. She’s gone from fascist dictator to, insult comic. It wasn’t earned, it wasn’t growth, it was simply an inevitable outcome of the writers deciding they wanted to keep the actress around longer.
That’s not even getting into the reveal that Carl is the Guardian of Forever, making this whole thing a call back to “The City on the Edge of Forever,” a classic (maybe the classic) original series episode which has Kirk, Spock, and McCoy traveling back in time to 1930s New York. It’s a great episode, and if you haven’t seen it, you should watch it, but the connection is the worst kind of fan service—it illuminates nothing, fails to effectively explain any of Georgiou’s storyline beyond “a wizard did it,” and doesn’t really have anything do with the story it’s drawing from. I guess the Guardian appears in multiple Star Trek tie-in novels, and I’m sure those are a good time, but it’s just lazy seeing it pop up here, even with the visual effect reveal. The Guardian worked in “City” because it was really just a device that allowed a story to happen; it wasn’t a being with agency, and it didn’t serve as a deus ex machina so that one person could survive temporal displacement, provided she passed a morality pop quiz.
After she succeeds in no longer being a complete monster, Georgiou returns to herself in the reality of the show. Carl tells she’s earned a chance at survival, and the “door” turns into the Guardian portal from “City;” all she has to do is step through, and it will send her back to a time when the Mirror Universe and the Prime Universe were still in conjunction. This is what Georgiou gets instead of a heroic sacrifice or a shock death: a one way ticket to irrelevance. (I mean, technically she’s dead in the “present” the second she walks through, but still.) Before she goes, she takes the time to deliver one last speech about how great Michael is, the Discovery equivalent of an exit interview.
Back on the ship, we get to see people who aren’t evil versions of themselves doing their jobs. Michael returns, and we get a scene of the cast drinking and talking about how great Georgiou was. I don’t think she talked to half of these people unless she was insulting them. It’s a strange, unnecessary tribute (especially given that she said her goodbyes to the people who had any reason to remember her last episode) that would make more sense in a longer running series, but apparently the show can never pass by an opportunity to take a victory lap, warranted or otherwise. Michelle Yeoh is a great actress, Georgiou gave her a chance to goof around for a while and get paid for it; godspeed, good luck, and I hope she enjoyed herself. Now let’s take some small comfort in realizing that we might, finally, have put the Mirror Universe behind us—and then get on with things.
Stray observations
- Goodbye Evil Tilly, you won’t be missed.
- I was half-expecting they’d get Lorca on for a brief appearance, but god bless Jason Isaacs, he had better things to do.
- The color inverted title sequence was cute.
- I forgot to mention the fireflies scene. Georgiou gives a monologue about how Evil Michael liked fireflies when she was younger, and Georgiou then gives her a jar full of fireflies. Under other circumstances, this could’ve been touching.
- Whole lot of capital letters in the notes this week.
- Okay, I’m assuming folks in the comments pointed this out already, but: Michelle Yeoh leaving Discovery is due to her getting a spin-off of her very own, centering on Section 31. Given the sheer number of Trek shows flooding the airways of late, and given that Section 31 isn’t my favorite Trek concept, I’m not sure I’d say I’m even cautiously optimistic. But fingers crossed, right?
155 Comments
Absolutely no curiosity about this star trek series except that point :Do they pronounce georgiou “djor djew” or “yay or yoo” ?
It’s pronounced “GEORGE-ee-oh,” with the accent on the first syllable.
It’s pronounced “gay orgy, oooh!”
Now, if I were THAT kind of Star Trek fan I would point out that I called Carl being the Guardian of Forever in the comments last week (though apparently some people on reddit had also reached that same conclusion)But I would never do that.
Naming the Guardian of Forever Carl might be the most degrading thing ever done to an all powerful time controlling super being/machine.
He’s reading the same newspaper from City on the Edge of Forever; they were hardly being subtle.
Fan service isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In fact, in my instances, it absolutely isn’t. It’s evolved into a label to huff about in a condescending way.Frankly, when the voice for Carl changed to the one from TOS to say “I am the Guardian of Forever”, I squealed like a kid getting the bday present they really wanted. And, here’s the thing, that’s the reaction the writers and producers of the show hoped for. They succeeded with me on that point. And to me, that’s all that matters. Look down on it as “fan service” if you wish.
I agree with this take. Fanservice is not, in and of itself, bad. It can be (and often is) done in terrible, cringy ways and ways that actively harm telling the work’s actual story, but this? I liked it, and I too popped when Carl’s voice changed.
Having not watched much of TOS (and my casual Trek initiation via the TOS movies and the occasional TNG episode) I gathered that Carl was a callback to TOS and therefore fanservice. I’m swinging between “well, okay” and “well, okay?” I get Zack’s ‘it feels like deus ex machina here’ but I can understand why people who get the ref might love it. I think it was always going to feel like deus ex machina, so throwing in fanservice is kinda harmless.
I did have a “just try to picture this from the perspective of a somebody who doesn’t know this is” moment, and I’m not sure he really works. What’s its motivation here? It was just hanging out for hundreds of years in hiding waiting for a single lost time/dimensional traveler to play elaborate mind games with? Wasn’t it bored? If it’s protecting the time stream or something, this was the best use of its abilities?
The original Guardian was semi-sentient, but mostly as an expository time portal. It was barely more conversational than the ship’s computer. Giving it a personality and strict moral code doesn’t work as well.
Right. Everyone above you in this thread doesn’t get it: an element should be reused when it’s useful, appropriate and turns out something good. Discovery is the story of when a show fails at that, over and over and over.
Discovery is the only Trek I’ve watched so the voice change moment made me laugh. To me, some guy in a hat showed up with a spin off portal.A lot of the writing on this show is closer to fan fiction than fan service. Another laugh line in this episode, delivered with complete sincerity:“Her barbs, though piercing, were utterly glorious”
Absolutely same here 🍻!
References to stuff are not necessarily fan service. It becomes fan service when the references are crammed in with no organic relevance to what is occurring.
And you should accept that you’re part of the reason a lot of TV is bad.
Hmm. I thought it was an interesting choice but I didnt see the need to make his voice change. I’m not familiar with any other “guardians of forever” so maybe that’s why this turn didn’t affect me like others. I would have liked it better if Carl had said calmly “you may think of me as a Guardian” or something to that effect. I just thought it was a little overdone this way, but I still overall thought Carl’s part was handled fairly deftly. Oh, but the newspaper headline was a little too basic and on-the-nose for me, I would have preferred if they left it blank or just showed a line of question marks on the page, or just omitted the use of the newspaper in that moment.
This episode is a backdoor pilot for the new series – Star Trek: Early Edition
can we get a reviewer without such a chip on his shoulder please, I think Zach needs a nap.
I think Zach is spot on. This show oscillates between lazy pandering and being outright insulting. It’s georgous to look at, everyone is ACTING (in allcaps, all the time) and it moves fast. If that tips it in your favor, great. God’s speed. But beyond that, there’s no there there. This is all cover, no book. World building is hard, but not THIS hard. For a lesson in how to, see The Expanse. Or, y’know DS9.
cuz nobody ever overacted on DS9? Please…
Actually, DS9 had the best all-around cast of any of the Trek shows. Nana Visitor could be a bit much from time to time. So was Marc Alaimo. And Terry Farrell had to learn to act in front of the camera- something she finally got the hang of – but the rest of them? Fantastic. You need SOME overacting to work thru all the makeup, but this show? …y’know. Of course I wasn’t talking about the acting alone. That’s just a symptom. Where this show fails is in the world building and earned character beats. It’s all big. It wants us to FEEL. But it doesn’t do any of the smart, nuanced groundwork. It’s all payoff, so none of it is payoff. Go look at The Expanse. Or Firefly. Or Battlestar Galactica (minus the last 6 eps). Or any of the first 3 Trek series (and, on its very best days, Voyager). That’s how you build tension and concern for the people on the screen.
When has Trek ever been very good at world building?
If you can sit thru seasons 2-7 of TNG and really all of DS9, to say nothing of the original movie run, and not feel that you were watching people live in a very specific, detailed world…well, I don’t know what to say. World-building doesn’t mean all of it is good. It means it’s internally consistent as far as those things go. It means the actions of the people in the story are consistent within the broader context of their relationships with each other and external events. Star Trek excelled at that. So did Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly (for all the time it had), Buffy…not every episode of any of those shows was great. But that isn’t the point.
Discovery is all over the place. Some episodes are good, but nothing is grounded.
I think you’re talking more about character building than world building. Even at its best I think its portrayals of alien societies tend to be kinda one-dimensional, and it’s had plenty of continuity errors as far as Earth/Federation society/history goes(though I think that’s more understandable with a decades-long franchise).
Character development is an aspect of world building. But it’s not a thing done only by genre shows. Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, The Wire, Better Call Saul, Halt and Catch Fire, Mad Men, Law and Order, The West Wing…all of these shows are brilliant in no small part because their internal logic is specific and consistent. How people in the story behave relative to the established rules in the overall narrative is maybe the most important thing the showrunners have to oversee. It’s hard. Sure. But that’s the job. Not moving us from plot point to plot point. That’s the preseason breakdown on a white board in the corner of the room.
I appreciate that you responded to what I said instead of dismissing it as “JAQing off” or some other buzzword like someone else would apparently like you to do.
Anytime, man.
Don’t mind Dino Ironbody, he just likes the make leading and often contrarian questions to stifle any meaningful conversation.
You’re JAQing off again…
don’t forget Avery Brooks. he had smoldering intensity down, but also swung into hysterical drama from time to time. and the less said about moogie, the better
Well, yes. But Moogie was there for comic effect. And sometimes (most times with the Moogie/Ferengi stuff) it fell flat. Embarrassingly so. But that only underlines the major flaw in Disco. You can’t have comic beats, or genuinely funny, human moments without people to care about. Discovery’s humor is all forced, because all of its relationships are under cooked. And as for Brooks, yes, once or twice a season he’d fly off into Shatner mode. But otherwise, he may be the most understated, quietly modulated actor in the entire Star Trek universe. There’s an argument to be made for Nimoy, of course, and possibly Anson Mount. But that’s about it.
Here’s a perspective I hadn’t given a lot of thought to until I heard itthe seasons of Discovery are around 12/13 episodes. Previous treks were 26.
So as far as produced hours, Discovery is still in the early to mid second season and how many trek series (other than TOS) were worth a damn in their second season?
Trek is hard to get correct right out of the gate, to be sure. But it’s not the number of episodes per season that helped right the ships in TNG and DS9, et al. If anything the time crunch and pressure to produce that much TV hurt them. It was time in between seasons, when they had the opportunity to breathe, that allowed them to reassess and plot a better course (pun(s) intended…I guess). Disco has had all that time and more. The 10 episode structure should have allowed for more disciplined storytelling and – looking at all the great TV produced in the current format – there’s no excuse there for the lack of world-building or character development.
people throw around that term “world building” like it means something. I guess it’s more important in a sci-fi setting to know what the rules of the road are, but it occurs to me that most folks remember TOS with rose colored glasses. That’s because we’ve had 50+ years to fill in backstories (mostly non canon). People will say that Micheal acts “out of bounds” because she mutineed and forget both Kirk and Spock did the same, or say Michael can’t be Spock’s adopted sister because he never mentioned her and forget that Kirk didn’t even know Sarek was Spock’s father until he was told.
we have seen character development, but when one of the character flaws is stubbornness, it can be frustrating that it seems to take a while for them to learn their lesson. And there are so many more characters on shows these days. Honestly who cares what Detmer’s trauma is? Did we ever learn as much about Sulu? He got to fence once and likes antique pistols. We don’t need to know what motivates the third ensign on the left, we have enough characters to juggle
No. We didn’t learn much about Sulu. But the artistic assumptions of 1966 don’t really apply here. And things like Michael committing mutiny is doing more to make my point than yours. The reasons behind, say, the TOS cast committing mutiny in the film series feels earned, because we understand the relationships underlying that decision. The costs they weigh and the decisions they come to are clear and resonant. After two seasons of Michael running around on the periphery of this crew and screwing things up, I do not, DO NOT, understand or accept as earned the collective decision by every last person to strand themselves in the future with her because they “love her.” I think it was established that Tilly likes her a bit. Some of the others may have talked to her once or twice, but that was the writers bludgeoning a necessary (if ill-advised) plot point near to death with unearned emotional heft. Nothing is earned. Not the choice. Not the emotional swell.That is what world-building fixes.
Trying to have it both ways?You invoke the character’s motivations from the films -15 years after the series- I refer to the menagerie where spock mutinied because he “loved” Pike eventhough the viewer had no idea who he was. So what’s the difference?
The difference is that we didn’t have any prior experience with Spock and Pike. Yet it’s plausible that he had captain in his early years who he cared about. And really, Spock’s mutiny wasn’t born of sloppy emotions. It was logical, as far as it goes. Spock was willing to suffer the consequences. And that he didn’t have to was resolved in equally plausible fashion. The admiral’s decision, Starfleet’s decision was plausible. It maintained (in fact, helped to establish) the internal logic of the world of the show. We already knew who Spock was, 16 eps in, and that story did nothing to change what we knew. It reinforced it. Discovery has made very few decisions that reinforce what was previously, and painstakingly established.
Micheal’s mutiny wasn’t born out of sloppy emotions. she was operating on what she learned being raised by Sarek and watching the Vulcans deal with the Klingons. (the Vulcan Hello) it’s right there in the title.The fact the Talosians pull a “Deus Ex Telepathia” is from the same cheap bag of tricks that includes T’Pau pulling string because she’s a friend of the family to get Kirk off the hook.
Again, the artistic assumptions of the 1960’s are different than today. The storytelling requirements for TV are different today than they were 55 years ago when each week was a complete reset and you only had to think yourself out of THIS week’s adventure. It’s a different landscape today, and if this show works for you, have at it. Enjoy. The show is pretty. Most of the acting is fine, especially considering what they are all tasked with bringing to life. It’s sometimes comforting, as the lifelong Trekkie that I am, to find familiar things to cheer for…Maybe it’s because I scrutinize scripts all day for a living, but the writing here makes me crazy. Some playwrights – Brecht, Pinter, C. Churchill, Lori-Parks – are deliberately ambiguous. They are working to upend traditional expectations. Sometimes TV manages that. Look at The Prisoner, Twin Peaks, Homicide: Life on the Streets, or (in it’s early years) Lost. To me – To ME – Discovery is not trying to reinvent the wheel by being intentionally ambiguous – why would it? It’s Star Trek – but is instead unintentionally vague. It doesn’t seem to care about much beyond the the “Ah-ha!” It wants us – the audience – to twist the pretzel into a shape for them. That’s lazy at best. It rises to the level of mediocrity. Which is…fine. And, again, if it works for you, god’s speed. I have my own set of shows I am willing to shrug off and forgive. The X-Files was one example. So is Doctor Who – though it was never too concerned with its own internal logic to begin with. But I want my Star Trek to be smarter. It means more to me.
that was a very thoughful response, thank you.You cite “the Prisioner” which to me is “pinnacle TV”, but it breaks your own admonition about 60’s TV. While it could be viewed as single episodes and enjoyed, it’s true impact could only be appreciated by watching it as a whole series. The “reset” each week was a part of the overall puzzle.
You’ll never convince me that Twin Peaks was ever anything more than “Weird for Weird’s sake”. The fact that Lynch had to write a movie to tie up the loose ends showed how they were making it up as they went along. More than capital letter “DITTO” for Lost which was an unfocused mess from episode 2 on.
I couldn’t help but notice the condescension in your tone – “if that’s good enough for YOU”.. in the south we just say “Bless your heart…” and move on.
But my chief complaint is with the fans who are quick to point out what a character did or didn’t do as if it hadn’t already happened on Trek in the past. “ Oh, Spock would never lie to his captain…” or “Picard would never put his personal needs first…” and so on.
So you don’t like YOUR Star Trek to be vague ?…well… bless your heart.
No. I mean it. If it works for you, good on ya. Lots of stuff works for me that other people cock their heads at. I’m just just saying that we’re discussing different things here. I never claimed that any character was always true to a very narrow definition of who they are. I would never say, ‘Oh, Spock would never lie to his captain…” or “Picard would never put his personal needs first…” ‘ Because that stupid and unnecessarily rigid. Everyone contains multitudes, including well-written fictional characters. What I AM saying is that when Spock lied to his captain or Picard put his personal needs first there was connective tissue that either bore out the reasons why or left room for consequences later. Discovery isn’t interested in consequences. At least not in ones that require hard work in the writers’ room. It’s lazy in that way. So was the X-Files, but again I hold Star Trek closer and to a somewhat higher standard. Maybe DS9 and the later seasons of TNG spoiled me. Furthermore, I didn’t say all of the narratively experimental TV shows were good, or that I liked them (couldn’t sit thru Twin Peaks, for example). Instead, I used them to illustrate what being deliberately vague – or prohibitively dense – looks like. And finally, I don’t know why you’re getting outwardly aggressive.
No aggression intended (well maybe a smidge of smart assed-ness) .I was conflating your criticisms of the series with the greater masses that still can’t get used to “the black girl with the white boy’s name telling the Captain what he should do” crowd and for that I am sorry.I will take exception to what you said about her motivation to commit the original mutiny. She did have logical reasons and she did face consequences for her action. Now her punishment was short circuited by Lorca, but (as I have tried to illustrate) it was no different than the many times Kirk and co. also escaped the punishment of their actions. If that is lazy writing, then at least it’s nothing new.
I think it’s easier to pass judgement on a series that is over and done with because the story has been told. You can ask after the fact if something you think was vague was ever addressed satisfactorily. While Discovery is still ongoing, the answers you seek may just be withheld for future revelation. You can be cagey about the whereabouts of a person or thing if the answer is in an upcoming episode.thank you again for your well spoken-ness
I guess this explains why you don’t get it. You don’t understand that you can chew scenery if there’s something behind it.
“This show oscillates between lazy pandering and being outright insulting” This is DSC not The Orville.
It’d be better off if it were The Orville. That show seems to understand what it is.
“This is all cover, no book.” This is EXACTLY it! And it’s been like that for three seasons, despite all the changes in staff.
Why? Because he is pointing out what a SJW Mary Sue dumpster fire of a show this is?
They don’t exist here. Every review is written by someone who hates the show.
It’s not the critic’s job to gush over the show or to have some fanboy circlejerk with you. There are plenty of places you can go for that. Critics are supposed to provide an honest, thoughtful assessment.
It’s not the reviewer’s job to gush over the show or to have some fanboy circlejerk with you.
It’s also not the reviewer’s job to shit all over the show in every paragraph of every review.
Well when the show isn’t good what do you expect?
it is if that’s his honest reading of it.
I bet you have a really weak stomach. Get car-sick a lot, afraid of rollercoasters, etc.
If the show is bad, yes, it is. Frankly, the only problem with these reviews is that whoever assigns the letter grades (it’s not the writer of the piece) should be putting them regularly in the C to D range.
The thing is, I think Zack went past ‘honest, thoughtful assesment’ about twenty reviews ago. His entire review in this case boils down to ‘I don’t like the Mirror Universe’ which fair enough! But it’s not particularly thought-provoking.I get watching a show you hate (I do, after all, read Zack’s reviews every week) but at least stop pretending you want to give the show a fair assesment. You don’t! You hate it! Go full Terran and embrace your hatred, Handlen.
This is nonsense. He just gave an A-minus to an episode of this very show a few weeks ago. There’s no need to be that sensitive. And do you want him to hate the show or not? Pick a side.
I don’t care whether or not he hates the show. I’d like a different review doing these reviews.
Too bad. You don’t get one. You get a TV critic doing his job. Deal.
Nope. You either don’t know how to read, or you’re throwing a tantrum to keep yourself from doing so. The point is that this is a hack, pointless rehash of a story element that likely can’t pull the weight it’s trying to pull. Now, you’ve read the article, and you have to think about that. I know it hurts (though I’m not sure why), but you need to work through it.
No. You’re an illiterate mental child who doesn’t know what a TV critic’s job is. It’s not to pander to your lovey-dovey fantasy that the characters are real and your friends. Fix your brain.
“Can we please get another bootlicker to blindly simp for this show?”
No. You get a reviewer who does his job, instead of fluffing your parasocial delusions about your favorite Star Trek friends.This is better for you. Eat your vegetables, kid.
The fact that these episodes aren’t in the D range (and that the entire season has more than like one episode higher than a C) shows your comment to be false.
Boring and stupid, but it did at least get my least favorite character off the show. It’s funny reading this right after having read Zack’s review for “Mirror, Mirror,” how fun the concept was initially and how utterly played out it is now.
Unfortunately for me, I’m almost certain my least favorite character is going to be with us until the show ends.
YOU MONSTER, STOP HATING ON GRUDGE.
The only way I could love Space Catte more is if he somehow were to be directly responsible for Michael Burnham’s departure from the show.
Could we trade off and just have Grudge swipe Michael’s eye so she could become Space Nick Fury?
You can’t redeem a character who is space Hitler. You put them in a penal colony.
A _space_ penal colony, thank you very much.And then they have an excuse to bring Rura Penthe into the show.
a spin-off of her very own
Star Trek – Genocidal Cannibal.
Please… It’s only cannibalism if you eat your own species… Besides Honey BBQ ganglia are really tasty.
if you eat your own species
I do not understand what they’re doing with Mirror Georgiou. They literally introduced her by having her nuke a planet and then had her eat a sapient being. She constantly reveled in her depravity and sadism. She hasn’t shown much character growth until this episode. All they’ve done is make her snarkier.Are they trying to make her like a combination of Dukat and Damar? But no one ever took any of Dukat’s BS and they constantly called him out. They made you think that Dukat could eventually realize his past mistakes and try to atone for his sins but he was just too egotistical to admit that he was ever wrong. And they did a great job of mirroring Dukat with Damar, having him becoming disillusioned with the Dominion and finally seeing that what the Dominion did to the Cardassians is exactly what the Cardassians did to the Bajorans. Finally having Damar face their people’s past and vowing to do better for the future. But they didn’t do any of that with Mirror Georgiou. She’s just a snarky sadistic jerk until she decides to be a slightly less sadistic jerk, who’s still running a genocidal empire but just a slightly less genocidal.
Comparing this to DS9 writing is very generous of you.
I always remember that the DS9 writers wanted a romance between Dukat and Kira, and that even good writers can have terrible, terrible, terrible ideas. And Disco’s writers are quite a bit less good than DS9’s were.(https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-deep-space-nine-documentary-nana-visitor-kira-interview/)
And part of being a good writer is listening to criticism and making sure that terrible ideas don’t get past the brainstorming stage. That seems to be a problem with the Discovery writers. The Discovery writers are aware of some of the problems of their writing, they even have the characters point out a couple of those problems, but just when you think they’re going to course correct, they just keep making those same mistakes.
“the DS9 writers” wanted nothing of the sort. Some of them wanted that, and some of them didn’t, and the power of the DS9 writers’ room was to quash their worst ideas through back-and-forth encouraged by a stable, competent show-runner.
And Disco’s writers are quite a bit less good than DS9’s were.I keep hearing that, and I don’t buy it.
That story that the DS9 writers wanted Kira and Dukat to have a romantic relationship is apocryphal. Almost every Memory Alpha episode article involving Dukat where he has scenes with Kira mentions how Dukat had this obsession with Kira, but that Kira is never charmed by him, and that she always sees him as a Cardassian Hitler.From Memory Alpha:
“both Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Nana Visitor were adamant that there was never going to be any hint of genuine romance between Kira and Dukat, not from her perspective anyway. On the other hand, actor Marc Alaimo felt it would be interesting to play the character as if he thought there might be chance for a relationship in the future, and the producers agreed.”
The idea that the writers wanted for the two of them to have a romantic relationship just isn’t true.
It’s not apocryphal if it’s coming straight from Visitor. Behr and Wolfe might remember one thing, but in the linked interview and in the DS9 doc Visitor told her version.And in a bsg podcast RDM had a story about a scene where a beaten and raped PegaSix was supposed to kiss Baltar…until Trisha Helfer told him what a stupid idea it was.So it’s completely believeable that the DS9 writersroom did amazing work, while also being full of doofusses.
I read that https://comicbook.com/startrek/news/star-trek-deep-space-nine-documentary-nana-visitor-kira-interview article you quoted and here’s what she says about Dukat:“We can go through the horrendous war criminals in every part of the world. Just name the one that chills you to the bone, that’s who Gul Dukat was to me. He wasn’t someone who was just carrying out orders, because his family was in danger or whatever. I couldn’t work my head around anything other than these were his hard and fast beliefs that another sentient being was below, was less than him. To find a love relationship, or a physical relationship, with him was unspeakable and unthinkable to me. I think that Damar and Kira towards Season Seven could have gotten involved. That would have been something different, but not Gul Dukat. Never him.”She never says that the show runners/writers wanted for Kira and Dukat to have an affair. She says what she is quoted as saying in multiple Memory Alpha articles – that in every episode where she and Dukat were together, she went to the writers/producers and said “Kira views Dukat as Cardassian Hitler and would *never* have a romantic relationship with him!” She was constantly worried because of what they were doing with Dukat’s character – turning him from a Cardassian antagonist into someone who had good qualities and often worked with DS9 (until the Cardassians joined the Dominion). And each time Visitor voiced these concerns, she was always told “Don’t worry, we’re not doing this. Dukat thinks a relationship may be possible, but you’re right about Kira – she never would.”Seriously, there are multiple Memory Alpha articles that quote interviews/books/etc from the writers/show runners that discuss this, and they *never* say that this type of relationship was ever planned. And these articles include quotes of them saying where they messed up and made mistakes, so the rebuttal that “Oh, Memory Alpha only includes the stuff that makes the writers look good, they don’t include any mistakes they made” just doesn’t hold water.Sorry, but the proof is overwhelming – the idea that the show wanted Kira and Dukat to have a romantic relationship is not true. They wanted Dukat to want it, but they *never* wanted Kira to.
What point are you trying to make, exactly?In the DS9 doc she and Behr have a long conversation about how angry she was when he told her that Kira and Dukat were going to have an affair. And Behr’s only defense is that they didn’t get to the point of physically writing a script for it, presumably because they realized what a stupid idea it was based on Visitor’s reaction.I said “I always remember that the DS9 writers wanted a romance between Dukat and Kira,” and that is not, as you’d tried to claim, apocryphal.Instead of moving the goalposts again, you might want to take a second to question why you’re trying so hard to claim that Visitor is lying.
My point is that it was never the show-runners/writers intention to have Dukat and Kira to have an affair. It was their intention to have Dukat think this was a possibility, but it was never their intention that Kira would be ok with it or that it would happen. There are multiple sources confirming this.Yes, every time there was a Kira/Dukat episode she was worried that they were going to put the two of them together and she voiced these concerns, but every time she was told that it would never happen.Sorry but the idea that the show wanted Kira and Dukat to have an affair is not true.
The sad thing is the idea of taking Mirror Georgiou and having her go through an arc where she becomes a better person isn’t inherently bad (it could be like an extreme Seven of Nine type deal, only she didn’t have as many options as a Borg) and would fit in with the ideals of Trek. But the writers really did not put in the groundwork to build to this conclusion. Or at least not nearly enough to make it feel earned with all these relationships with the characters. There are just way better redemption and/or journey of discovery stories out there.
(Not) earned. and there you have it.
Thank gawd there’s a new ep of The Expanse today, after subjecting myself to this meh.
This is something I don’t understand about a lot of complaints I’ve been reading: everyone referring to Georgiou as “Space Hitler” and how she can’t reform or earn redemption. She lived in an alternate universe where society EXPECTED her to act like a monster, she was morally correct over there and had no realistic way to see any other alternative. Even those plotting against her were doing so because they thought she wasn’t taking it far enough. She came into “our” universe and at last saw a better option. She learned from it and did change for the better, but it’s difficult to fight a lifetime of experience overnight. Was she still cruel? Yes…but much less so. She also redeemed her universe by letting mirror Saru evolve, which according to Carl, led to a Kelpian uprising that fundamentally changed her universe’s course in the longrun. That was also the point of why she tried to convert mirror Michael. She saw a better path, and desperately wanted Michael to be a part of it, because she realised how much killing her before broke her as a person. I feel she can deserve a redemption because before her time here, there was no better example for her to follow. She saw a better way and wants that way. However, she’s still a product of her life experience so, yeah, she’s going to be rough around the edges as she deprograms herself.Also, she wasn’t a cannibal, I saw no evidence she consumed humans. I would argue we are just as guilty by eating other sentient life then. I’m pretty sure some of our food have sentience, we just don’t know how to communicate with cows, pigs, octupi, etc. yet, but I’m pretty sure they would be conceivably sentient if we could. But it’s considered fine to eat them here, without knowledge saying otherwise.
I’m going to say that she’s a cannibal. In Star Trek, interspecies relationships are common. Worf’s didn’t commit bestiality when he had sex with Jadzia Dax. Georgiou ate Kelpians— and probably other species— and interspecies relationships exist in the Mirror Universe, as Spock’s existence can attest.And there are good people in the Mirror Universe. Every Mirror episode of DS9 dealt with the underdog trying to improve their reality. Good and Evil don’t become relative terms just because one is more predominant. She’s still a monster.
Oh FFS. You probably think sharks are cannibals because they eat other species of sharks.
I can sort of get behind your argument, but in her universe those people would have been reviled as “monsters” because they were trying a different path that was against hundreds of years of historical morality for the Terran civilization. Morality is pretty much relative to the majority of what people BELIEVE is right, it’s highly subjective. Cats stalk and hunt many species and even play with their prey before ultimately killing them (and sometimes not for food), yet we hug and cuddle with these little monsters and adore them. She was able to adjust her sense of morality when confronted with a different perspective and is coming around to it. I’m willing to amend the cannibalism metaphor to include other technologically advanced species, but then you statt getting murky in where the cutoff lies. We have people here on Earth that have married cars and other inanimate objects (I assume somewhere it’s other species at times as well), and of course bestiality happens, so again…where do you delineate between the two in your argument? Where’s the cutoff?
I have to say, while we’ve seen a lot of hybrid species characters on Star Trek, it’s been depicted as being uncommon to rare for child from interspecies coupling to make it to birth. There was a whole plotline I recall with B’Lanna Torres worrying about carrying her child because it was 1/4 Klingon and expected to be difficult. Spock was the only hybrid Vulcan in his time and most of the Vulcans considered interbreeding extremely distasteful culturally. Etc. Which is cool – it makes characters like Naomi Watts, B’Lanna, and Spock more interesting and unique in their backgrounds.
I always enjoyed that mirror O’Brien was basically just O’Brien with a 10% shittier work day.
The definition of cannibal is “a person who eats the flesh of other human beings.” Not other animals – only “other human beings”.The only species we know that Georgiou ate was Kelpians. Guessing that she probably ate other species is just that – a guess. There is nothing in the show indicating that she ate any other species.Sorry, but Georgiou is only a cannibal if she eats her own species. Humans, Klingons, Kelpians – they’re all different species. Also your bestiality argument about Worf and Jadzia is ridiculous and holds no water.
Don’t use words you don’t understand.“I would argue we are just as guilty by eating other SENTIENT life then. I’m pretty sure some of our food have sentience, we just don’t know how to communicate with cows, pigs, octupi, etc.”
But where science is concerned, animal sentience is in no doubt. The definition of sentient is simply “able to perceive or feel things”. Today most of us would probably also say that animals are able to feel emotion, form attachments and have distinct personalities.Maybe you should better learn the meaning of words before calling someone out on the proper use of them.
I am a scientist. We don’t consider non-humans sentient. “Animal sentience” is a BS term devised by animal rights activists and has no place in scientific discourse. Have a response to the environment and predictable behavioral patterns is no indication of higher brain function. You are anthropomorphizing.
Rich coming from a botanist.
Not saying humans and animals are on a equal level but higher order animals certainly possess awareness and can feel certain emotions and contrary to what the materialists claim they DO deserve rights. You seem like you would approve of higher order animal experimentation and confinement. What a real pussy I must be to recognize it for the unacceptable institution of cruelty it is, I dga f*ck if they find the cure for AIDS that way- which they wont. Rats and fish are one thing, cats, dogs, pigs, and primates are another.I don’t live and die for PETA; I don’t even have a membership, but I know one goddamn thing is true- animals are NOT simply furry robots without psychological aspects or potential, at least not the higher order ones. They sure as hell aren’t just furry, animated versions of plants. I respect properly placed cool detachment but I also wonder why you scoff at the idea that higher mammals deserve rights. Ask anyone who’s grown up on a traditional farm. Animals you wouldn’t even think were capable of it form bonds with each other and their human keepers, and it’s clear to see by anyone involved with them. I’m not saying humans shouldn’t eat or use animals (humanely) but I disagree with what your view seems to be. They are most certainly more than you claim.Aaiight- I’ll scootch off that soapbox now.
You are not a scientist if you are asserting that as incontrovertible fact. There is no qualitative difference, just quantitative difference in levels of self-awareness between us and other mammals.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/prominent-scientists-sign-declaration-that-animals-have-5937356/ampYou’re 8 years behind from your much more well versed colleagues.Could it be that what you accuse others of anthropomorphizing is actually a display of a lack of emotional intelligence on your part? Fascinating.
You’re endeavoring to be as much of a stupid cartoon as the poorly-written character you’re trying to defend. Stop.
Except no one is saying that Georgiou can’t ever be redeemed. The problem is that the show never tried to redeem her. They didn’t really develop Georgiou in all the episodes where she’s in the prime universe. She continued to revel in her cruelty, she joked about her sadism, she never showed regret or remorse over all the deaths she’s caused. Even in this episode, she didn’t kill Mirror Michael due more to selfishness because of the effect it had on her. Plus, even though she didn’t kill Mirror Michael, she tortured her for months. And Carl saying that her actions helped the Kelpians change her universe is just a cop out. It’s the writers telling us that she’s magically a good person without actually doing the work and developing the character and showing us how she became a better person.
I didn’t say she’s a good person, and neither did Carl. She’s simply on the path to redemption, not yet redeemed. She had to torture Michael or everyone else would have killed her as she’d look weak. She made every attempt to talk first and even during, but she didn’t forget where she was. She still had to appear ruthless. Also, I took most of her antagonism to the regular universe characters more as a reflexive defense mechanism. The only people she reveled in killing, that I recall, where the people on the mining colony that had just tortured and killed someone else, and about to do the same to her and the other two: Saru and Tilly. My ultimate point was I didn’t see her as beyond redemption, but a lot of commenters seem convinced they can never let her be redeemed in their mind because of where she started.
Of course they didn’t try to redeem her, which is why they say this episode she’s changed, that now she can make different choices. She has been, as the show progressed, less and less likely to do terrible things. It was subtle but it was there.Most of her criticisms of the Federation were that it was weak and it would not survive. She’s spent this season learning that:- the Terran Empire fell- the Federation, however, endured for centuries- it still endures! and people are beginning to believe in it again!So her biggest argument is now, provably, false. Then she goes back and she realizes the Terrans sorta sucked.
This entire season’s theme is how the values of the Federation endure no matter what and the slow turning of the doubters into true believers. Georgiou’s plot is just another aspect of that.
Except Mirror Georgiou didn’t become less likely to do terrible things. She’s just doing different terrible things.How did they show that she could change in this episode? Instead of killing Mirror Michael outright, she tortures her for months in order to break her, then she had Michael prove her loyalty by slaughtering the conspirators plotting her downfall.At best, Mirror Georgiou attempts to adopt a dark twisted version of the Federation’s ideals. Instead of slaughtering her enemies outright, she wants to make her enemy see they were
wrong to oppose her in the first place. To force them to acknowledge her greatness. To enforce cooperation through torture and threat of death. She’s not learning to build a Federation, she’s learning to build the Dominion.
She helps Saru and the Kelpiens evolve, for example. It’s a move that won’t benefit and won’t benefit the Empire, but it’s the right thing to do. If you took the episode to say ‘and now she’s 100% good’, yes, it’s not there. But for me it was closer to ‘she can change, so eventually she can be a better person’.
I agree with both of you. I think it comes down to simply old habits dying hard. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Georgiou has wielded enormous power for most of her adult life. Once immersed back in that universe, her Terran-bred instincts were no doubt going to assert themselves again. We see how (in her way) she can be merciful with Michael, because Michael is her family, but would she really have the sudden capacity to be so towards whom she see now as enemies and betrayers?? I don’t see how.Not to mention, by killing them in battle (or after capture, presumably) she was giving them a glorious and/or heroic death, supposedly what every Terran soldier wants (to go down fighting). Also, any Terran rebel knows death is at least a 50/50 possibility at any moment and that their rebellion could fail. They knew the odds, y’know?
I have been saying this since she got wrestled back into the prime universe. Where she was from, she was basically normal. Just a product of the circumstances she was brought up and lived through. It’s not like she tried every episode to stew Saru once she got here. This whole space hitler thing is lazy and bandwagon-y.
Okay, so, your argument as to why this character isn’t a goofy cartoon is that real-life people eat beef. Good luck, kid.
Well said- I second this.
Michelle Yeoh is a great actressI really want to agree with you, and I was happy to see her as the captain in the series premiere, but her performance as Georgiou strongly suggests otherwise.
Loved the tie in with the greatest episode of Trek ever.The only real problem with this (twin) episode is that I knew exactly what was going to happen when she was sent to the mirror universe—-she was going to find out that nothing would change regarding Michael’s death, no matter what she tried to head this off.Of course, I figured that they would also then say that the root cause of Phllipa’s molecules trying to fly off back to the mirror universe was her regret at not doing more to prevent Michael’s death, which would have been really, really cheesy and dumb, so thankfully they didn’t try that.Going to miss her on Discovery; her brute force Terran personality offered a nice counterbalance to Tilly’s bubbly optimism. Hopefully, we get more Reno to make up for Georgiou’s loss.
I’d give the episode a B-, mainly for the cheesiness at the end and the odd dialogue at times.Also, I too, like the reviewer, hoped that Lorca would show up. Still the best character in the series to this point.I’m in the minority that I liked Terran Georgiou a lot, so I’m really hyped for Section 31.One note—-from the Trek canon, it would seem that the point where the two universes separated was early 20th century, wasn’t it? Or even earlier?LOL, Georgiou is gonna be rather upset when she arrives.
Ssomehow I remember a scene indicating that the split point was first contact. Main verse welcomed the first Vulcan and mirror verse captured/tourtured/?killed him. Though not 100% sure about how that works in light of the 2nd TNG movie and Picard et al supposedly being involved in first contact. Makes me think the real split had to be at least slightly earlier, maybe not even on earth, so that Picard et al. Were hopping around the main verse timeline and mirror verse had already jumped the track.
The problem with the “First Contact” being the split is that Enterprise’s own “Mirror Episode” opening credits showed the split happening much further in the past, specifically around the time of WW2.
I had soooooooooooort of always gotten the sense that the split happened in the alternate(mirror)-universe where Edith Keeler was saved, and therefore the Nazis won… so I kinda enjoyed the Guardian knowing all about this, as if they’d taken a keen interest.
Oh was that it? I vaguely remembered a video clip of humans attacking a Vulcan at first contact, that’s all. Now I know what to Google to find the clip. Thanks.
Yes, that happened in the episode, but the opening credits (normally with that awful cover of “Faith of the Heart”) had a hodgepodge of earlier events showing divergence in it.
Oh yes! I’m remembering now. Thanks for the clip. Looks like that idea about edith keeler being the split point has merit.
I know this comment was a while ago but I had to mention that I love this take. If for no other reason than it makes the Riker and Geordie subplot in First Contact even more important. By filling Cochrane’s head with ideas of the Federation and a utopian future, they prevent the dark twisted mirror universe from happening.I know that there is other source material that contradicts this, but I just like the idea that the only thing stopping a terrible Star Trek timeline is Star Trek.
I, for one, will miss Evil Tilly. Maybe it’s the hair…
It did look pretty great in this gal’s opinion, lol
It certainly makes it easier to respect her. It’s hard to take Tilly seriously as first officer when her hair is all over the place. How do you command respect from the crew when you can’t even command your hair?
Don’t you have a The Orville you could be watching instead of shitting on DSC?
“The Agonizer”, “Killy” – funny, bad writing, or both? Either way, it’s hard to take the Mirror Universe seriously.
Thank you for saving me the time. I’ll check in again on Discovery next week.
You may like it more than you think. I actually felt overall that it was strong, surprisingly. My main complaint was that it left out some things I wanted to see (some important, some unimportant) but other than that, I don’t have any real sizable complaints about this episode.
Perhaps I’ll go back and watch at some point.
How does the author not know Yeoh is now starring in her own show titled “Section 31″? Didn’t that news break over a year ago?
I have to agree with the review for this one. The mirror universe is fun and seeing everyone twirling moustaches is fun but this isn’t back in the days of 26 episodes a season when we could have pointless diversion episodes. Either stick to the main plot or at least make it deeper and more thought provoking.
I think that splitting this into 2-parts was an mistake because it just wasn’t necessary, and it killed whatever momentum they had with whatever the seasonwide arc is doing.The main thing that makes the mirror-universe interesting is the surprise of “oh hey, it’s the mirror-universe.” And once we’re into part 2 everything is pretty one-note. The one reason to split it would be if they were saving a surprise for Part 2, like Jason Isaacs showing up. But no.For me, if this had been a done-in-one a little earlier in the season it would have felt like less of a total waste of time: diagnose the disease in the cliffhanger of the previous ep; head to planet; meet Carl; get a solid 25 minutes of mirror-universe back-stabbing; then back for the Guardian reveal and farewell.If Inner Light could fit in 45min, this story certainly could have too.
YES. I’d argue in a 12-episode season to spend even ONE episode in goateebeardland is a dumb idea. To go there for two eps, a sixth of the season, is absolute madness.
Dunno. Ds9 did a good job with the mirror universe. They had some fun taking some characters to the extreme (kira!) But also developed the characters and plots there in meaningful ways. There was even that one episode where Jake gets to meet his mirror mom and connect the mirror verse back again. I’m just saying the mirror verse can be a highly entertaining throwaway like TOS, but it can also work in a arc story line like ds9. Doesnt sound like STD did either though.
The mirror universe is inherently very goofy, and it doesn’t really lend itself to these weighty emotional episodes. Like, it’s kinda sad that Georgiou is having trouble connecting with her daughter, the murderous psychopath with no second character trait, but it’s hard to feel very invested in it.
Hell, Georgiou didn’t really have a second character trait until like three weeks ago, but now the whole crew lost its best friend? I get that she “saw a better way,” but she was grumpy and abusive if pragmatically non-murderous until they needed her departure to land. The show’s not really laying the groundwork for the emotional beats its trying to hit here.
Sadly that’s the story of the show, I’m afraid. Taking the shortcut through just about everything (including literally, with the spore drive. As an aside- I think it’s an intriguingly different idea of a mycelial network throughout outer space, but I still don’t see how that allows for instantaneous travel. A physical medium is still a medium is it not?? Am I missing something? Is this something we’re supposed to fanwave away?)I wish they would have committed to simply making longer seasons. They could have told a far superior story, with more cohesive plotting, if they had simply given themselves more airtime.
That was a very long walk to get to that punchline.They could have just dropped her through a timehole.
…I just keep thinking about how much runtime this show has devoted to the kinda-sorta redemption of mirror space hitler, all for a spinoff that seemed iffy 2 years ago.If discovery were paced like a normal trek show that would be one thing, but most weeks it barely has time to remember who’s in the cast (Hi Nhan, bye Nhan! Hey again Tig, maybe we’ll see you again next season!) so this whole Georgiou thing was a lot of nothing.
Maybe it would have been more interesting for her to just walk thru a random door on the ship and never come back and have noone notice or act like anything was weird, and then have the first ep of her section 31 spin off be about having to roll thru disco and other points in history erasing herself. Oh well.
YES, FINALLY ZACK, a review with insightful and deservedly harsh criticism (“Before she goes, she takes the time to deliver one last speech about how great Michael is, the Discovery equivalent of an exit interview”; ha!) combined with an appropriate grade! Keep on speaking (and grading) the TRUTH!
I say good riddance to the mirror universe. This version of the MU played more like bad a bad fan film. I still don’t understand why Discovery writers get terminal group think as the season progresses; this should have been one tighter episode but instead we got 90 minutes of stabbing and screaming. Side note: where was the Shenzou during all of this?
When the Guardian told her whenever she was ready, just walk through – that was a nod to The Good Place’s finale, right?
I don’t care at all about Section 31, and I care so much about Michelle Yeoh. This is going to be tough for me, I can feel it.
I love Mirror Episodes, even though they truly have no story telling value, I just think they’re fun and that’s fine by me. Even I was pretty tired of it by this point.At least the S1 mirror episodes had ramifications for the characters the show was about. They changed, and it was us seeing our people somewhere that was very different from our world having to pretend to fit in. Basic, but I liked it! But this episode, the mirror universe adventure didn’t even really…happen? It affected only one person, the person who then hugged it out and left the show? “It was all a dream” but for two episodes. So yeah, I might have finally, finally gotten my mirror universe fill.(I’ll still always be bitter that we didn’t get Mirror Voyager)
Well there was ‘evil voyager based on a historical reconstruction’, that was an enjoyable episode.
And what a joy that was!
Would have been hard to have a Mirror Voyager since it would be unlikely Janeway and company would have ended up in the Delta Quadrant (Mirror Tuvok was in the Alpha one by the time Prime Voyager would have left foe example) meaning you’d be missing out on a couple of characters and it probably would get a bit more convoluted than Mirror History already would be.And as another commentator noted we do at least have Living Witness.
I understand what you’re getting at, and agree it would be unlikely. But that’s also just what we go into each mirror universe story understanding. Like ok so somehow all these people are evil and have different personalities but they also have the exact same children with the same people and this stays true for generations. It has no sense and I’m ok with that, and I would have been ok with it being even more nonsensical if I had gotten mirror Janeway. Plausibility be damned!
Evil mirror universes, like evil twins in general, are cheesy as hell and I am a huge sucker for them. Could have used more evil goatees though.
Okay, putting the space Hitler thing to one side (although I maintain calling Georgiou “a true badass” is like calling Anders Breivik “a sassy rogue”), they’re sending her to a point in time BEFORE the mirror universe split with our universe? So basically a time where by definition EVERYTHING she does could and will have consequences for the show’s current reality? Isn’t this the most dangerous possible place to send her? We don’t even know how long ago the two universes separated, but at the very least it’s a thousand years. That’s a thousand years of butterflies she could step on and inadvertently tits everything up. Given it’s clearly the writers’ intention to have her go live on a nice farm upstate, it’s a pretty moronic oversight to send her someplace so fundamentally dangerous.
I mean, do you even sci-fi, STD writers?
I was really hoping that there would be some larger purpose to this visit to the mirror universe besides giving Georgiou a do-over. I was hoping they would find out that the Mirror Universe was somehow involved in the dilithium stuff or at least some reason why the mirror universe was drifting away from the main universe. But nope. Just a sendoff.
Two gorgeous episodes, the mirror universe is fascinating, bravo! Haters are haters, but it’s good that they don’t make movies, they just bark at the moon.
It’s really crazy that they did a whole ass two parter just to send off the character who is getting her own spinoff. I initially was going to use the term backdoor pilot here, but this wasn’t even that. There was no Section 31 stuff here to backdoor pilot with. And just about nothing that happened has any relevance to the main series. Simply a massive waste of time.
Dear Mr Handlen,Over the years, we have had our differences, you and i. However, never in the last decade have you ever been more correct than when the Star Trek Mirror Universe drops into your sights. god damn.
The only way the Mirror Universe works, is if it is not a free-floating discrete universe, but an appendix at an angle to the Prime Universe, such that whenever one goes there, that person / those peoples’ subjective Prime Universes are the ones reflected into Evil goatee Universe People. That the Mirror Universe has no reality otherwise, that once Prime Universe folk return from their Mirror Universe, that Mirror Universe manifestation disappears.
That’s the only way it makes sense over multiple generations. And even that idea presupposes in a sense that Matter proceeds from Mind, and not the opposite (a philosophical idea not normally acceptable in Star Trek).
Mommy, this Star Trek isn’t what I personally expected! Can you wipe my butt?[cries]
Oof, this episode was painfully bad, like some badly written and performed pantomime. And why in the name of all things holy are a federation crew giving teary anecdotes about a mass murdering genocidal fascist despot? I’ve willed this series to be great but it’s just shockingly inept.