How Did This Get Made? and Blank Check join forces to sift through the Snyder Cut
Aux Features Diane Raphael
How Did This Get Made?
Zack Snyder’s Justice League (w/Griffin Newman, David Sims)
HDTGM is the go-to podcast for going deep on mediocre movies. And what film is more arguably mediocre than the storied Snyder Cut? Hosts Paul Scheer and Jason Mantzoukas (June Diane Raphael was absent this episode) are joined by Blank Check’s Griffin Newman and David Sims to discuss the polarizing behemoth that is Zack Snyder’s Justice League. With the movie clocking in at four hours long, it’s only right that this episode of HDTGM is similarly supersized. There’s a lot to discuss, especially because there’s a fifty-fifty split of admirers and haters among this group. As hosts of a podcast all about directors who achieve massive success (thereby securing a blank check to bring their passion projects to the screen), Newman and Sims share their perspective on Zack Snyder’s career and lend a lot of context to the conversation. Overall, the crew agrees that Snyder’s version is indeed better than Joss Whedon’s, though Mantzoukas offers the important reminder that Snyder’s version exists in large part due to the badgering of a toxic fanbase. [Jose Nateras]
LPN Deep Dives: Dune
The Baby Gods
Frank Herbert’s Dune saga is a monumental piece of science fiction literature that spans thousands of years while dealing with themes of ecology, religious fanaticism, and the very nature of what it means to be human. Henry Zebrowski and Holden McNeely are two men who freely admit that they aren’t qualified to unpack any of this. Despite that, the Last Podcast Network’s limited series finds the zealous Zebrowski and his acolyte McNeely dissecting the plots and philosophies of Herbert’s novels, which have entranced and mystified the pair. The podcast’s driving force is Zebrowski’s occasionally manic recounting of the basic storyline: He veers wildly from hilarious reenactments of certain scenes to solemn recitations of the text, which treats as almost sacred. Fans of Last Podcast On The Left will be familiar with Zebrowski’s somewhat troubling admiration of certain problematic megalomaniacs, and all of that is on display here, too. Whether it be the sadistic Baron Harkonnen or the half-man, half-worm God Emperor, Dune provides Zebrowski with his pick of terrible role models. McNeely does his best to make sure that the audience is never lost, but it’s a bumpy ride that’s almost as wild as the books themselves. [Anthony D Herrera]
Your Magic
Phoebe Bridgers: DIY Witchcraft & New Moons
Your Magic, a new witchy Spotify Original from Parcast, is a destination for the curious, those touched by mystery with a penchant for the strange and unusual. This episode features indie rock darling Phoebe Bridgers, who discusses her relationship with the supernatural and unknown. Bridgers reveals herself as something of a hedge/Michael’s craft store witch and receives a tarot reading that might portend something with her new record label, Saddest Factory. Low-key host Michelle Tea is joined by her producer, Vera Blossom, who shares their personal connection to The Craft and a special new moon ritual, inspired by the practice of pop culture expert (and A.V. Club contributor) Ashley Ray. As Blossom explains their experience of the practice, we learn along with them that the ritual doesn’t need to be precious and benefits from being customized to fit your weird self. If you are looking to work with your ancestors, but don’t want anyone spooky showing up, or just want to listen to Bridgers talk about her enchanted art making process, Your Magic is the one. [Morgan McNaught]
189 Comments
Double Post
The 3rd factor will not be revealed until Snyder is allowed to complete his trilogy! #releasethesnyderverse
I think a majority of the reason why Snyder fans are so toxic are two factors:An inability to self-deprecate Snyder’s work. This stems from the need for comic book movies to be seen as “mature” and the idea that if it’s mature than it can’t be “silly” or “fun”. Therefore they are innable to mock the pretentiousness elements of Snyder’s work as they treat it as high art.Snyder, whether by deliberate action or because he’s a clueless meathead, likes to invoke right-wing reactionary imagery and symbolism into his work. Hell, 300 was shown to troops going to Iraq and Afghanistan. Couple that with his admiration of The Fountainhead and it’s obvious why right-wing nutjobs would gravitate toward it.
A third is their open disdain for the fact that the source material is written for children.Which isn’t a bad thing! I’m a children’s librarian, some of the best fiction in the world is written for children, but imagine how fucking pathetic I’d look if I kept insisting on having an adult (read: GRITTY!) version of Ramona Quimby or Harry Potter.
I’m guessing that someone at the CW is probably working on “Quimby: Medical Examiner,” even as we speak.
“Lieutenant Huggins stood in the doorway, arms crossed. ‘I’m sorry Dr. Quimby. This is one case I can’t let you handle. You’re too close. I just can’t trust your judgement. I… I’m sorry.’ Dr. Quimby craned her head around the Lieutenant’s broad shoulder and saw what she feared most of all, lying there on the table under the flickering flourescent light. ‘Beezus’ she said, her voice barely more than a whisper. ‘Beezus, I WILL find out who did this, and they will pay.’”
I don’t really get this take despite it being a widespread one, if only because outside of a few moments in BvS (which are, admittedly, laughable) nothing in Snyder’s movies (particularly MoS and ZSJL) seem all that out of step with what else is out there? Man of Steel felt like a natural progression from the Dark Knight movies (and quite honestly a lot less “gritty” than any of them) and ZSJL has about the same tone as Infinity War throughout. BvS is the only one that really justifies the label, but the X-Men spinoffs went further than that (particularly the Legion TV series, which used rape as a plot device far too much, and took a lot more glee in being gratuitously violent) without getting the same reputation.Also, it’s entirely possible to like the goofy dark stuff and the silly bullshit. It’s possible to think Ben Affleck did a decent job, be looking forward to the Robert Pattinson movie, and know that nobody will ever top Adam West. Logan can be a sad dying man and a gruff crank who calls people “bub”. Thor… well okay they tried to make Thor serious twice and it really didn’t work out for anyone involved so I’m entirely okay with Thor being exclusively silly from here on out.
Couple issues I see: Man of Steel felt like a natural progression from the Dark Knight movies (and quite honestly a lot less “gritty” than any of them) MoS was a progression from the Dark Knight movies, but Superman is not Batman, and should not have been treated the same way (or subject to the same aesthetic). and ZSJL has about the same tone as Infinity War throughout Difference was that IW/Endgame earned their tone, for the most part. The heroes got fucking trounced, and had to figure out a way around the darkness in order to bring back the light. ZSJL? It’s the culmination of a vision that started in grimdark. It’s akin to the issue with the Flash bits in ZSJL. They look GREAT! They’d look even greater if every other damned set piece weren’t awash in slo mo. Same principle.
There is still piles of Marvel Comedy™ in Endgame, especially the time travel shenanigans. It’s a time heist. Literally called a time heist! Very different tone from the intense final act or all of JL.
YUP.Thankfully DC seems to have gotten it. And I’m glad, as even though I’m a lifelong Marvel fan, there’s a ton of DC characters I’d love to see covered.
Fully agreed, which is why I said Infinity War rather than Endgame (which is maybe the most Marvel of all Marvel movies, and also the one I greatly prefer out of the two).
Duh. My bad.
I don’t really disagree with any of that (though I’d argue Man of Steel did give Superman a different aesthetic, which was unfortunately “Dollar Store Tree of Life”), but it still feels like a complaint that started as “this is a bit too humorless” and grew into “this is Saw with capes” through an internet feedback loop and distance from the actual films themselves.
Totally get that last point. I think people saw a very “300″ aesthetic and were ready to write it off. Thing is, he lead with Superman killing. Superman *has* killed before, but you don’t lead with that aspect of the character. Plus the collateral damage was absurdly off the charts, which is something you can certainly build to, but Superman is all about hope, really. Plus the whole Pa Kent…thing. Like…Superman is supposed to be aspirational. He’s arguably the most formidable lifeform in that universe, but it’s the hope he inspires that makes him who he is. There was very, VERY little hope in MoS. That was the problem.
Also don’t disagree with any of that! I feel like most of the tonal dissonance of that movie came from two major things:
1) David S Goyer, who always tends to lean a bit too much into edginess (the head snap feels like his idea, though also something Snyder didn’t disagree with).2) Snyder’s desire to make it a combination Christ retelling (so everything is very serious and They Know Not What They Do, which is in direct contrast to people openly loving Superman in every other medium) and adoption story (which was probably very personal to Snyder as the father of four adopted children, but tended to overwhelm Superman as an independent adult). Pa Kent fits into this perfectly: it gets a lot of criticism, but the movie pretty emphatically says he’s wrong, but he’s trying his best. It’s sympathetic to him without agreeing with him. But I don’t know if that’s a story anyone going to see Superman particularly wants.I dunno. I’m ambivalent on Man of Steel honestly. I admire what it tried to do in the first half and can see that parts of it were personal to Snyder, but once the action starts the movie falls off a cliff, and the gravitas inherent to the story has merit but maybe isn’t the best way to reboot Superman right after another conflicted and sad version of him failed.
Dude. Look at this gif and try, just fucking try, to pretend that Zack Snyder isn’t all about this neck snap. Look at his fucking rat-faced smile at the end, FFS. If I’m not mistaken, he’s mouthing “Yes!”
I always come down to “adaptation does not mean slavish reskinning.” It’s a problem fandom has, needing a version of The Thing in a different medium to still be… Exactly the same? Its the prisoner of azkaban argument over and over. I think it’s the best actual MOVIE of all of the HP flicks, precisely because it adapts the material into the needs of cinema. It is a movie first based on source material. But a pile of Potter fans dislike it precisely for “changing so much and leaving so much out.” Which is a take I have increasingly less patience for, because why do I even want to see the movie that is basically just a visual novel or a motion comic? (Nothing of actual plot or character import was lost fwiw)Man of Steel isn’t crummy because it isn’t doing Reeve or all-star or whatever. But in leading with superman killing; in the massive collateral damage; and for me, in PARTICULAR the shift in messaging and character for Pa Kent, i would argue it gets so far away from the Important things. I’ve seen the argument made that “if you have a guy in a bat suit and name him Batman, that’s Batman, there is no ‘true’ Batman except whatever the writer wants.” I don’t agree with that even as characters can be stretched and adapted to varying degrees. Batman is WILDLY flexible. Superman I think is less so. There are certain traits and expectations that are reasonable if a creator is not doing a new character. Becsuse a superman without hope, particularly because his pop told him “meh fuck those kids” is… Rough.Arguably an interesting story, but one told with a different character than superman.
Arguably an interesting story, but one told with a different character than superman. That’s the crux of it. By all means, please do riff. But “riff” =/= “I’ma ignore pretty much every key component and resonance point of the character.”
Eh, I’d argue the dual identity and “hiding your true self” aspects of the character are pretty key, and there’s validity in shifting focus to those for an immigrant / adoption “where do I belong” narrative. If we didn’t have such a dearth of uplifting Superman movies I don’t think nearly as many people would have a problem with that approach, but since we haven’t had Standard Superman on screen for decades, the idea of yet another deconstruction (however valid) is aggravating.
I think there’s an interesting story in “if Superman is a Christ figure, then what would The Last Temptation of Christ look like in that context?”, and I think there’s merit to exploring the idea of Superman’s optimism (and abilities) being worth more if it’s the result of being tested and battered and questioned and still managing to come out the other side, rather than just existing as an obstacle-free matter of course.
I also think that movie makes far more sense as a one-off pseudo-epilogue to the Dark Knight trilogy than it ever could as the beginning of an entire cinematic universe, and it suffers because we haven’t had a standard meat-and-potatoes Superman Is Uplifting story in a very long time. Without the burden of having to be The Cinematic Apology For Superman Returns and the beginning of a sprawling multi-billion-dollar decade-long series of films, I think it holds its own better (though you could still cut 15 minutes out of that final action sequence and not lose a single goddamn thing of importance).
You see this disdain from the editors and writers of the comics themselves.Most of DC characters are not built for “grim and gritty”. And few characters they have that can be like that (Batman) go so far into darkness, it becomes parody.
Yeah, whatever one might say about the viability of making DC heroes darker, it’s a trend that started long before 2013, and was kicked off by some of the biggest names in the medium. DC’s been associated with that for decades at this point, for better or worse.
Alan Moore and Frank Miller started it with Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns in 1986.Almost equal and mostly lesser talent has run with it ever since.
I feel like Watchmen deserves to be considered its own thing separate from classic DC heroes (it’s clearly a commentary on them, but it doesn’t actually use them), but Moore still gave us The Killing Joke so he’s not off the hook.
Moore originally was given the characters DC bought from Charlton but changed their mind because they might be developing them somewhere so Moore had to change them a little.
Watchmen gets infinitely misblamed for rushing in the “dark age of comic books”. It was just an indie darling in its day, one that many architects of the ‘80s-’90s brand of edge didn’t even like – like John Byrne. Hell, not even Killing Joke and Miller’s work had that much influence in the end; they were precursors, not the starting point.A Death in the Family and The Death of Superman did much more to make superhero comics darker. Both were born largely out of a corporate mandate.
I feel like Tim Burton also deserves credit/blame. Everyone saw that movie, and it immediately replaced Adam West as the standard for what Batman was in the general public’s mind. And although it’s goofy as shit now, it was considered remarkably dark and adult at the time.
Tim Burton’s movies had a goth ascetic but still kept the core of Batman as a detective. All of Burton’s Batman movies ended with him defeating the villain mentally before physically. That’s still very different than shoving a gun in Batman’s hands and saying, “Yeah, he kills now.”
I mean… Batman did kill in those movies. There was a whole Thing about it at the time. Comic fans went absolutely ripshit.
And this discussion has been about what popularized the dark aesthetic DC became associated with in the late 80s and early 90s. Good or bad, Burton was a part of that shift.
I wouldn’t blame Watchmen. It was another one of Moore’s deconstruction of superheroes after Captain Britain and Marvelman. I would blame editors and writers could not write as well as Moore or understand the stories beyond surface level. And fuck John Byrne.
Yes. To all of your points, particularly the last one
To this end, Moore’s gone on record as saying in interviews he wasn’t saying ‘Everything should be this dark’
What he was trying for was ‘We can do different things with these properties. Don’t be afraid to branch out and try something new’
To which they all then just tried to ape him.
I agree about Watchmen. And Killing Joke was cool when I was 16. Not so cool now when I’m 49.My point is once DC got acclaim and sales from Watchmen and DKR, they started to make all their line like that. Not right away, of course. Kahn, Levitz and Giordano knew better. But when Didio and Lee started running the show, we got Nu52.It’s like WB and DC don’t get their own characters. I’ll use Wonder Woman as an example.See how they have her running around with a sword? I feel that misses the point of her character.The sword comes from Kingdom Come. In that story, she was disowned by the Amazons for failing her mission to bring peace to Man’s World. She felt that she had to bring violence to keep peace. By the end of the story, she sees she was wrong.DC/WB just sees Wonder Woman with a sword and thinks “cool” and has her cutting people’s heads off.
Batman =/= “DC heroes”In fact, the entire argument could be boiled down to “What works for Batman, a symbol of fear, doesn’t work for other characters like Superman, a symbol of hope.”
They did the exact same thing with Superman around the same time.
Zach Snyder’s Amelia Bedelia“Misunderstandings can be murder!”
“Break a leg, Amelia!”“Bite the bullet, Amelia!”“STOP, AMELIA!”
“Amelia? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?”
I strongly disagree with this take. The general idea, I agree with. I also loath the calls for a “dark and gritty” take on things like Star Wars. But you are making the same mistake many people make when it comes to family friendly content and assume it’s “for children”.Ramona Quimby is a series for children, it’s about a 7/8 year old and told from that perspective and intended audiences around that age. The themes and content of Harry Potter DID become more mature as the series went on because Harry himself was growing up. No, I agree it doesn’t need to be dark and gritty, but the ending point, and any story moving forward still centered on Harry does still need to be mature to reflect the perspective of a grown up Harry. Still family friendly but not “for children”. Comic Books haven’t been explicitly for children for at least 45-50 years. Starting sometime in the 80’s (yes, the 80’s were just over 40 years ago) comic books started to tell more grown up stories. ESPECIALLY Batman who became the Avatar of Pain and Suffering, torturing as victims as much as humanly possible without technically killing them thanks writers like Frank Miller.So no, I disagree with your take that fans are angry they’re not the target demographic of adaptations of children’s stories.
Then why is every Marvel and DC comic trade listed in the YA section?Folks love to say that Frank Miller and Alan Moore are more “adult,” but bear in mind the age you were when you read them. Were you an adult, or were you a middle/high schooler?
Young Adult is not Children. (yes, I’m aware of how that makes me sound)Parents absconding their responsibilities isn’t a justification. Yes, a child will always try to push the limits of what they can get away with, and it is the parent’s responsibility to draw the line in the sand and say “no”. As a child, it was annoying how clued in my mother was into the shows I watched, the video games I played, and the books I read. As an adult, I appreciate that she didn’t just check out and just assume that just because it was a cartoon, that automatically meant it was for kids. Same for video games, same for comic books. So I didn’t experience The Dark Knight Rises until I was already an adult because as a child, she took an “absolutely not” attitude.
A seventeen year old is a child. So yeah, they’re for kids.
For genre purposes, 17 is considered young adult.
Yes, but for the purposes of my point, which is that these are characters that are primarily written for young audiences, 17-year-olds are kids. Superheroes are power fantasies for youngsters that at their core are silly when you think about them, which isn’t to say that they aren’t awesome or that adults shouldn’t enjoy them, but that it’s dumb to demand that a medium that’s largely for all ages be restricted to Hardcore Adult Grit Versions.
(I’ll repeat that I’m a children’s librarian so I’ve got a decent grasp of categorization. Also, YA isn’t a genre any more than comics or cartoons are genres; genres are things like sci-fi or urban fantasy, YA is an age grouping.)
Superhero comics in most cases should be all-ages.All-Ages meaning all ages can read them and enjoy them.It also makes good business sense. You can get kids into comics when they’re young, which is how most of us go into comics.For example, I wouldn’t give my Grandson a Batman comic that contains this…He’s five. This isn’t something you give to a five year old.
I wouldn’t give that book to ANYONE. 🤣(I agree with your point.)
Shit like that maybe “adult” (to a horny 14 yr old), but it’s not mature.Showing sex is adult. The consequences of sex is mature.
That’s the difference.
This argument only holds water if you round 11-17 year olds (ie, the target audience for Harry Potter and comic books) up to adults.
The books grew up with the reader as they were being written. Yes, now with the series being finished, it’s unrealistic to expect a young reader to wait several years before starting the next book. But as the books mature, it’s up to the parent to decide of their child is mature enough to handle the heavier content that gets progressively added as the series goes on.
Librarians FTW
I’ve got two words for you: Ramona fucks.Where’s my check? And why is the FBI at my house?
On the other hand… it’s not like grim morbid hyper-melodrama hasn’t also been a thing in comics for kids since forever. There were plenty of morbid teens in the ‘80s who thought it was awesome when various X-Men and Titans would get killed or go evil or whatever (again). I was one of them! And the previous decade had been full of portentous gritty superhero crime drama, which later generations of comics writers and artists grew up reading. The idea that if it’s fantasy pulp adventure stories for kids, then it’s naturally supposed to be light and colorful, hasn’t really been true since the 1940s – that’s just one of a bunch of different styles that have coexisted for a long time. Snyder is pretty much the embodiment of the vaguely-metal aggro-nerd dreamscape of my middle-school crowd, backed up by an insane amount of money and technology that we never would’ve imagined would be available for such things. That’s not so much my thing now and a little of Snyder goes a long way, but I get how it can be a thrill for a grown-up fan who’s like “Finally, they can make these things as grandiose and twisted as I always imagined them!”
You’re right, but that’s also the rub: such melodrama is inherently childish, but boy oh boy good luck telling that to a Snyder fanatic.His movies are no more “adult” than the MCU, and in many ways are more childish; quite a few of the MCU movies are about stepping into newfound responsibility, a theme that resonates with folks entering adulthood a lot more than anything Snyder has done (Man of Steel and JL come closest, but the former has a dude who’s raised shittily and always has powers and the latter has this muffled by hours upon hours of bullshit). Which isn’t to say there should be a competition between DC and Marvel, you’re allowed to like two things, but given the Snyder kids are hellbent on showing everyone the chip on their shoulder by saying their dad’s movies are better than your dad’s movies…yeah, oof.
That’s one of the more intriguing points the HDTGM pod noted about Snyder: he is a guy who thinks “what is the coolest thing I could do right here?” even if said cool thing grinds against the other cool things in the movie. Taken at face value, there’s something admirable about it. Cool for cool’s sake. But embracing that and recognizing its relative silliness isn’t what the Snyder cult wants to do.
A million times this. Appreciate it for what it is. Don’t be one of those people who tries to insist that string cheese is exactly the same as an artisanal camembert.
The reality of Snyder is that he has a wheelhouse in which he works pretty damned well, and he falls on his face when he tries to cram *other* shit into that wheelhouse.He’d be a perfectly entertaining filmmaker if he’d stay the fuck in his lane.
I disagree! He’s way more interesting when he veers wildly out of his lane. His owl movie for kids is so out there and freaking bizarre while also fitting precisely in his aesthetic while also being an intensely personal rebuke of his critics. It is not what you expect from Zach Snyder while simultaneously being extremely Zach Snyder.
You have to stay awake, Eglantine, or the Pure Ones will moon-blink us!Sorry, all of my knowledge of that movie comes from a 30 Rock episode, but it did sound absurd.
My definition of Snyder is basically the story of a guy who is trapped in a dead end job all of his life pushing paperwork around, but all he’s ever dreamed of is being a ballerina.Except in this case, Zach Snyder is a guy who is continually trapped in a dead end job where people give him millions of millions of dollars to make movies, but all he’s ever dreamed of is making music videos.
I think the problem might be that, until recently, Michael Bay was hogging the shit outta that lane.
Fair point. Though it occurs to me now that Snyder might’ve missed his calling as a dude capable of making GOOD video game movies.Snyder’s God of War, Snyder’s Mortal Kombat, Snyder’s Gears of War…
But then it’d lead to him getting the Bioshock gig and it’d piss me off. 😀
Or it could just be that they’re nerds, and nerds who obsess over just about any property tend to get toxic about it regardless of the tone or implied politics of the work itself. People managed to get shitty and aggressive over fucking She-Ra. Supernatural and Sherlock were absolute minefields. My Little Pony was My Little Pony.
It also feels worth noting that most people who watch these things just watch them like normal human beings. Most people don’t have strong feelings about Rose in The Last Jedi, and thought Ghostbusters was just another kinda-bad reboot among many. It’s honestly annoying when one of these things turns into a highly-politicized lightning rod where fans and non-fans try to psycho-analyze each other over their opinion on a piece of generally-inoffensive genre fiction, and that part of the toxicity cycle sucks as much as the rest of it.
Very true.I dabble in tabletop games/CCGs/CMGs. In the course of playing various games, I’ve run into the occasional toxic mutant who fuckin’ NEEDS to invest their hobby with as much gravitas as they *think* it will bear. That’d be the 10th guy in a given assortment. The remaining nine are well adjusted individuals just looking to blow off some steam, even if they’re more competitive than others in the room.
I made a joke about the Snyder Cut to my wife, which led to me explaining who Zack Snyder is, what the movie Justice League is (which included a sidebar to confirm that, yes, Ben Affleck played Batman in two separate movies, and I wasn’t just messing with her), and why there was a new version of Justice League on HBO Max. By the end of the conversation it became obvious that this isn’t just a narrow interest, it’s about three layers of narrow interest deep.
This movie largely exists because of COVID, and the fact there is an already existing fan base, I guess you can call “toxic” for wanting something very passionately. I was surprised that they barely mentioned COVID, if at all, in the episode. The materialist explanation; the need to have a product to sell, there already being a product available, and a ready-made consumer base, make much more sense than the notion that a bunch of nerds strong-armed a defenseless, global media conglomerate into making a lot of money against its well. A secondary reason would be the absolute horrible press generated by the revelation concerning Joss Whedon. Odd how Snyder, who is supposedly a fascist, did a much better job of centering a young, upcoming black lead in major franchise film than Whedon. I wouldn’t be surprised if Snyder, despite vague allusions to equally vague and incoherent reactionary politics in his films, is probably a better human being than the very outwardly liberal Whedon.
I’m sorry, LOL, but hold on. They showed a film where the heroes die at the end to a group of soldiers going overseas to fight a war in a historically-hostile region?! Wow. How the hell did I not know about this?!
I can’t confidently say that no deploying unit was shown 300 before deployment, but I can confidently say it wasn’t standard. I saw the movie while in Afghanistan, but only because it was one the thousands of movies on DVD that were sitting around.
Now I’m imagining the dvd selection at a military installation in Afghanistan looking like the dvd bins of a hundred grocery stores. “Who wants to watch Van Helsing in letterbox?” “Fuck you, I want to watch Big Momma’s House. In letterbox.”
More like a bazaar of every pirated movie you can imagine. There was a shop at Kandahar Air Base that could get you a pirated DVD of virtually any movie or TV show you could possibly request ( as long as it wasn’t porn, which was strictly forbidden). They actually went to quite a bit of trouble to make it look like a legitimate release, which gave us the weird example of a “Disney” box set that included artwork of Shrek and the Minions.The powers-that-be allowed these DVD sales on base, with the caveat that you couldn’t take any pirated material with you once your deployment ended. So, after a decade or so of units rotating through, the accumulation of DVDs sitting around in the work areas became massive. In my last 6 month deployment, I got caught up on about a 10 year back log of movies and TV shows I had missed.
I went to Afghanistan twice, and the only reason I saw 300 there was because it was one of several thousand DVDs that was in circulation. You tend to watch a lot of movies on deployment, for lacknof better things to do during down-time.
Point no 2 all the way- socially conservative people love his messaging. He kind of seems in the same vein as Joe Rogan, both are seemingly unaware of what their messaging is, but definitely don’t shy away from the support they get from the far right. It’s like Snyder is somewhat unaware that he’s the person that makes the propaganda films in Starship Troopers- everything is about confirming your reactionary ideology as The Truth, and glorifying your power as if it’s synonymous with your self-worth.
Good point. Zack Snyder could make a very aesthetically pleasing Punisher movie that would almost assuredly miss the point completely, as all those Punisher-sticker/thin-blue-line idiots do.He clearly overshot his calling as a cinematographer.
lol, Punisher wouldn’t be a surprise to me- he completely warped Dawn of the Dead, Watchmen, and Superman, Punisher won’t stand a chance against Snyder.
It’s so odd that fans of Zack Snyder have this reputation for being so toxic on Twitter when people and groups of people being toxic is, like, at least 50% of Twitter. Any time large numbers of people start tweeting about anything, there will be lots and lots of reasonable people being reasonable, and inevitably more than a few FirstNamebunchanumbers accounts and bitter, angry people being jerks. It’s just funny how most of the time they’re ignored, until every once in a while they’re given all the attention, like they speak for more than an individual’s random account with 15 bot followers. If I could wave a magic wand and eliminate one thing from the universe, it’d be the style of article sites post that’s just a selection of <=10 random tweets from the angriest random nobodies on a theme like, “Uh oh, BernieBros are NOT happy about Elizabeth Warren’s speech.” The USA has 330 million people, and Americans aren’t alone on the internet. It’s darn near impossible to find something that isn’t being said/done by at least 10 people on the net.
I’m sure the DC vs Marvel rivalry factors into that as well. As far as movie goes, I don’t there actually is a rivalry (in the end, The Dark Knight’s success benefited every comic book movies, not just DC’s) but some fans were just bent on imagining a war where the DCEU had to survive in an environment where every media were in Disney’s pocket, and WB hiring The Avengers’ architect to finish the Justice League movie must have felt like a huge betrayal to them. Snyder is a rallying cry to these people.
I would not frame this as a Marvel vs DC thing. Plenty of DC fans hate Snyder’s movies.
I am one of them. A big majority of comic book fans are very okay with both company succeeding but there is a subset of DC fans that sees a rivalry where there isn’t and in their mind, a side has to “win” and a side has to “lose”.
Or some got defensive because writers like on the AV Club would mock them for wanting it and Snyder on a personal level, and when they would push back, said movie bloggers would cry about being bullied for acting like bullies.300 being shown to soldiers isn’t on him that right-wingers missed what the movie was saying about the Spartan’s, no different than them not knowing what “Born in the USA” is actually about.Also, wanting to make The Fountainhead into a movie doesn’t make him an admirer. Hell, Oliver Stone tried to make it for years with Brad Pitt. And if Oliver Stone is known for anything it’s his right wing ideology.
I’m sorry that your feelings were hurt because not everyone like the movies you like…Have you tried just liking them instead of getting upset that others don’t? Why does it matter if people don’t like Snyder’s movies? Nobody is mocking you for liking them.
I mean, “why are Snyder fans so toxic? It’s because they can’t take a joke and they’re right-wing reactionaries” certainly seems like mocking someone for liking the movies.Plenty of people like or don’t like them for entirely valid reasons, but you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the whole thing.
Look at VW0’s comment history. He literally only ever comments here to get butthurt at people not liking Snyder movies.Furthermore, I’m only stating my observationss of the Snyder fandom’s online presence. There are a few who just like the movies and keep to themselves and than there are the cultists who can’t seem to accept that liking his movies is enough and lash out at others who don’t agree with them. My comment was only on the toxic elements of the Snyder fandom, which makes up a good chunk of their online presence.
But, look, it has to be said: a fairly significant chunk of Snyder Cut fans do seem to be toxic right-wing reactionaries who can’t take a joke. Or who, at very least, seem very quick to throw around vitriol and aggression in service of getting what they want, and then equally quickly turn whiny and martyred the very moment anyone dares say anything even mildly critical or sarcastic about their beloved superhero movies, as if they can dish it out with relish but can’t stand the possibility of taking even a little bit in return.Not all of them, by any means. But a significantly large and vocal enough portion of them to begin to tar the rest.
I mean, sure, but like I said above, I feel like that applies many nerd-approved properties (again, people managed to do this with My Little Pony, and the levels of toxicity surrounding The Last Jedi and Captain Marvel were pretty goddamn gross). The part that’s annoying is that while those are rightfully treated as “internet assholes are gonna internet asshole,” Snyder’s films seem to really bring out the thinkpieces.And I say this all as someone who initially thought the Snyder cut was a monumentally stupid idea after BvS was such a miserable slog (I went into ZSJL as a hate-watch and came out really enjoying it).
The difference is that, unlike TLJ, MLP or Captain Marvel, the Snyder Cult got what they wanted. WB said they released the ZSJL because they were “Listening to the fans.”. To the Snyder Cult, they think they won and think they are able to influence WB. Why do you think there are assholes with Twitter bios claiming that they’re an “Associate Producer on ZSJL”? By placating the Snyder Cult, they have emboldened them. Hell, according to Snyder himself, the fan harassment was a factor in getting ZSJL green-lit citing an instance where some of his cult spammed a Tweet for Sesame Street with “Fuck Elmo! Release the Snyder Cut!” (https://theplaylist.net/zack-snyder-justice-league-hbo-max-wb-sesame-street-20210202/).Snyder Cultists are signaled out because WB decided to placate them.
1) Justice League in general has been a history of trying to placate fans, first by bringing in Whedon to placate everyone who loudly hated the previous two movies, and then by bringing back Snyder to placate the people who loudly hated the Whedon version.2) MLP fans absolutely got what they wanted. Repeatedly. It was honestly pretty gross. The people who were shitheads about TLJ also got what they wanted with Rose essentially saying “I’ll stay here, you all go have a movie without me” in TRoS.
2) The assholes will probably continue to feel emboldened up until the moment they realize that the production schedules ain’t changing and WB did what they did because their HBO lineup was weak and they had a project sitting right there ready to be delivered, but either way I think “what would the toxic fans think about this” is a dumb way to go about things because it lets them control the narrative. WB got some publicity and decent subscription numbers for their streaming service and that’s what they wanted, so in that sense it’s a success. If it made enough money, they might continue with Snyder after all, and if it didn’t then they won’t. Regardless, this was the result of a pandemic upending their entire production timeline: without COVID and HBO Max, there would be no Snyder Cut, no matter how many Youtube videos and hashtags made the rounds.
Wait, what did MLP fans want that they got?
The series constantly added in nods to the adult fanbase (including fan characters, “Derpy Hooves, etc), and the creators catered to them at events that often weren’t the best environments for actual children.
I mean, it’s not like no one’s ever pointed out the shittiness of hardcore My Little Pony creepers, Last Jedi/Captain Marvel haters, or various other toxic nerd cults though. There’ve been plenty of thinkpieces about those as well, it’s just that those are a few years old now and the Snyder Cut literally dropped a couple of weeks ago, so of course it’s going be the subject of more recent conversation. Also, an argument can be made that the Snyder Cut exists in large part because of toxic fans being strategically toxic in the right directions. People talked about shitty fan petitions to get The Last Jedi remade as well, it’s just that those fizzled out and didn’t go anywhere whereas the Snyder Cut did.
I guess my thing is that those aren’t usually treated as “Star Wars fans” or “Marvel fans,” they’re treated as a gross subset of general idiots that invade every nerd space eventually. With the Snyder films it seems like there’s this weird undercurrent assumption that the films themselves are inherently for assholes. It’s an odd tone I haven’t really seen with any other media that’s gotten nerd-controversial from what I generally consider the rational side of things (the assholes always think everything’s made for SJWs or whatever).
Maybe, though it’s still debatable how much of that is just perception versus fact. But it’s also possibly because, like I say, the Snyder Cut arguably only exists in large part because of the more toxic subset of fans, or at least they’ve made it easy for people to come away with that perception. They’ve forced themselves front and centre, whereas say what you will about them, no one was making Captain Marvel specifically for misogynists or My Little Pony for creeps, so it’s arguably easier to disassociate from them.I dunno, it just seems like if you’re looking for someone to blame for giving your fandom a bad name, it really is more the fault of the toxic assholes in the fandom in this case.
The irony is that Snyder makes so many absurdly childish decisions in terms of character, story, vision, etc. Not just with the Justice League characters. I mean the guy attempted to slavishly put Watchmen on the screen while completely missing the point of the source material.
Neckbeard…“culture”, I guess if we’re being technical…almost entirely seeks to legitimise itself by demanding that others recognise it as just as valid and valuable because it puts out what it considers to be similar to actual valuable cultural artefacts, while fundamental misunderstanding that that’s simply not the point. The Snyder Cut, to them, is exactly as valuable as Citizen Kane, because those are both movies.
I mean . . . he’s an overt Objectivist. His next movie is an adaptation of the Fountainhead
Weird, this episode of HDTGM aired over a week ago.
I think I’m pretty much done hearing about this Snyder movie, thanks.
The Blank Check episode on Used Cars features the same foursome in one of my favorite conversations about comedy every recorded. I’d never heard of the movie and the episode is still an all-time classic.https://player.fm/series/blank-check-with-griffin-david-1460844/used-cars-with-jason-mantzoukas-paul-scheer
I’m still in the process of listening to it, but they did a three hour episode on a two hour movie, and they want to remark how it should have probably been a 90min movie?
The meat of the episode is a conversation that has nothing to do with the movie; it basically becomes a terrific Mantzoukas interview after Paul leaves, and it goes on so long that Paul comes back from what he was leaving for and they just keep shooting the shit.
MANTZOUKAS
it’s pretty cleanly split in two — they wrap up talking about Used Cars about halfway through the episode and it becomes a long conversation about the modern state of hollywood comedy for the rest of the ep
Thanks for pointing me to this ep! Had a long drive today and the listen was appreciated.The discussion of the movie and Gale/Zemekis was good on its own. But springboarding from that into a broader conversation about comedy movies was when I really got locked in.
Weird that this site won’t shut up about the Snyder cut , considering how contemptuous they were about the project from the start.
Well they don’t make any money by not talking about it.
Polygon is worse.
Do u know how the internet works?
kill yourself
That Dune podcast is painfully awful. Those guys aren’t the least bit funny but inexplicably view themselves as hilarious.
Thassa LOT of podcasts, I’ve found.
This is true.
Thank goodness I’m actually hilarious.Anyway, this week on Sequelcast 2 we’re covering Terminator: Dark Fate!
https://sequelcast2.podbean.com/e/terminator-dark-fate-2019-1617112018/
I have tried going back to relisten to some old LPOTL eps, because it’s hard to find good paranormal casts with the right tone, and MAN are they painful! At worst, blatantly racist and misogynistic, and best just loud and cringey. I hope they’v e gotten better, but I doubt it.
Dune is barely talked about critically. It’s part of those books where you find the hardcore fans reciting paragraphs or.. no one else to talk about it. I think it’s fascinating, very flawed and needs a proper critical analysis – and though flawed I still prefer it above most of that sequence of crap which is the scifi canon.
I thought that HDTGM was somewhat infuriating to listen as it was really weird. It wasn’t even that they were justifying disliking it, because I don’t think that’s anything anyone needs to justify, but rather that they were constantly talking themselves down from appreciating it. The tone was so weird that it was baffling to listen to. What made it worse that it felt like Paul genuinely liked the film, again which is fine, but every time he moved to speak positively about something, it was like the other three sniped it. And it didn’t even feel they hated the movie, which made it even weirder. As such, the overall discussion wasn’t pleasant as it wasn’t even funny or entertaining, it was a group of guys trying to convince themselves that they are in the right for disliking something.
They also something that frustrates me to no end in that they did the ‘Would this film have been received so well if it came out in 2017′, which is in itself a waste time of debate as this four hour film wouldn’t have come out then. However, even beyond that, I do think there is something deeply dismissive in trying to explain why someone would have liked it in the most patronizing way possible instead of just accepting that people liked it for their reasons.
For some reason it’s a film people have decided to Take A Stand on. Snyder isn’t just the guy who likes buff dudes and overuses slow-mo any more, now he’s Nerd King Cryptofascist and liking or disliking his movies says something about your politics and your intelligence.
It’s Rick and Morty Pickle Rick Szechuan Sauce bullshit all over again.
It’s the internet, every issue has two sides and only two sides.
Grey area? What’s that?
Well, gee, finally a podcast dedicated to hating things gets a little… old?
When I saw this on the front page this morning, I was genuinely surprised, because to me this was one of the few duds in recent HDTGM episodes, which I think have been overall really good throughout the pandemic. I guess we haven’t seen any of those recent eps profiled here because there’s not much to write in a review of than “HDTGM did Jade and it was really funny.”Definitely the tone was way off, largely because of the guests. I agree that Paul kept wanting to go back to what the show does well, which is finding what is the sublime in schlock, but everyone else seemed to think that this topic was just too serious to joke about. And I was really thrown by how seriously Jason was taking the movie, dare I say getting on his high-horse, which is really not what I expected. If someone is introduced to HDTGM from this review and listens to this ep first, they will really have the wrong idea about what the podcast is usually like.
Jason came off horribly in that episode and I legitimately could not get his point at times. Again, it’s not that I expected any of them the like the movie, but just the overall hostility Jason about liking it while whining about how he has a right to dislike the film was just… I could not comprehend it.By the way, completely agree that HDTGM has been on a strong run the past year. That has especially been a delight is that I feel that June has somehow found a comedic voice again in the show as before the pandemic I was actively dreading the June episodes. Now it’s been pretty good fun overall.
Totally agree about June, she has much stronger and clearly distinct comedic voice now, over the last year or so, than before, when we would either get “I have no memory of watching this/I actually did not watch this” or “I hate everything about this,” but not much to say beyond that. Otherwise she would be more the butt of the jokes, which always rang a little sour for me. Then, I think maybe with Teen Witch and Grease 2, June would really champion the movies she had a connection with. And I have really enjoyed the most recent dynamic with the three, probably born out of Jason being completely removed from the group while Paul and June are basically inseparable, of June and Jason ganging up on Paul and delving into another dark corner of his fraught childhood. I loved the Jade episode for turning the tables and giving June a chance to go into her own weird childhood stories.
The following is pure speculation, but I think at some point June got frustrated at being kind of a joke on the show. Which is completely understandable as it did come across as them laughing how dumb she was. However, when trying distance herself from that, she just became really serious where either she wouldn’t engage on the jokes, do a real talk moment or just utterly stan for movies she liked. It killed all energy from the show and I would there was always a drastic difference in the feel if they had a guest or not.However, now during the Pandemic, she finally found that niche to be funny without being the joke. Hell, I’d even argue she genuinely laughs so much more now than she did in the year prior to this. And it has brought so much fun to the show.
Sounds about right. I would say I do enjoy June in stan mode better than June in self-serious mode, or way more than June in wallflower-mode. It’s funny to say that a show that’s been continuously in production for 10 years, 500+ episodes, is now finding a new rhythm.
And she does all that in a sauna bed!
June & Jason v Paul is always a diabolical treat.
Agreed. I isn’t a typical episode of HDTGM. We got serious art nerd Jason instead of WHAT’S UP JERKS! It is far from a newbie episode, it’s lacking in jokes and wild humour. I appreciated the discussion; I also got bored about 2/3 through. And of course, it lacks June and Jason calling Paul out and double teaming him for some awful takes. 🤣🤣🤣I enjoyed that Jason really dove in and had an analytical take on the movie, what worked, the journey to it. It wasn’t what I was expecting. It was also quite interesting… To a point. The two guest hosts definitely seemed to drive the tone and conversation. It wasn’t like Paul was totally shut down, but they seemed a bit more into the nitty gritty details of the making of it and so forth. Cos Paul clearly enjoyed it, going so far as to say maybe this (HBO max more miniseries length than movie) is Snyder’s best venue, up to calling it perhaps the best, purest presentation of Snyder’s ideas. Like, I don’t like Zack Snyder but I thought Paul (and Jason, frankly, because he also enjoyed it even if he’s never going to watch it again) had some terrific reflections … To the point I’m actually intrigued to watch it with an open mind.
Okay, while I naturally respect your different take on the episode, I’m really confused as you attributing a lot of stuff said to Jason that he never said there. To start, there was nothing analytical from his approach, that was more the guest. I don’t think he liked the movie, if he did, he sure as hell hid it well by constantly complaining about everything. He did not discuss the journey to it, again the guests and Paul. Nor did he make the point about the 2017 aspect, those were again the guests.This isn’t to argue even about Jason, I’m just somewhat baffled by the details here.
That’s ok. I also admit I got bored halfway through and might not have all the details right. Also I was doing dishes and breaking up fights between my children sooooo 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣I definitely got a different vibe from Jason, and we can agree to disagree on that. It was also not a funny episode, which I liked to a point —- until I got bored. (I also don’t think even if June had been willing to watch and talk about the movie, it would have been much better.)it’s a valid take that had this been the film that came out in 2017, it would not have been received as well as it is. In the end, it benefits from being compared to the Whedon version.
Oh! I think I know the point Jason made that I liked. About DC just doing… All different kinds of movies. So rather than Snyder’s vision being the default or house for all the flicks cos “cinematic universe,” you have a Joker, you have a couple different Batman movies, and hey, Snyder has his movies over here. That piece. If snyder isn’t the “default” for DC flicks, it makes the Snyder movies less obnoxious. No, I’m not going back to listen again or accurately transcribe. 🤣🤣
It was a good point, but Jason didn’t make it, it was one of the guests. Jason instead just kept on ranting how dark and relentless every DC movie is.
I don’t think he was ranting, and also, he was largely right about how oppressive the Snyder flicks are. *shrug*
“it’s a fuck house!”
Yes, new listeners should definitely start with let’s say, the I Know Who Killed Me episode.
I dunno, I thought the pod was going to be a total shredfest and it was more positive and just… *Interesting* than I anticipated. It was more of a serious discussion than a typical HDTGM joke fest. Jason liked it, and was fine with that, but also says this isn’t his lane. All four agree that ZSJL is probably his best DC movie. Paul definitely enjoyed it. I didn’t get the same level of forced dislike or infuriating you did but ymmv. 🤷I also think Jason’s point about how differently this movie would have been received if a three hour version of ZSJL had come out in 2017 was an excellent point. After BvS’ critical and commercial failure, there WAS a backlash. To have brought out this version of the movie (albeit probably at 3 hours) would have probably tanked as well, because largely people weren’t down with Snyder’s vision. ZSJL *is* better by virtue of comparison to the Frankenstein Whedon edit that pleased… Well, nobody.
Something I think that should be noted is that while if Snyder got his version out in 2017 it wouldn’t be 4hrs, but a 4hr cut would likely follow soon thereafter, as nearly every one of his movies has had a director’s cut follow up on home video immediately thereafter (and in many cases, including BvS, are notably better received). It’s to the point where I gotta assume he’s designing these movies with this in mind/writes it into a normal contract, and the production issues are what prevented it earlier for JL. FWIW, I think a 3hr cut probably would have been a middling mess; and while now I enjoy the ZSJL well enough on its own terms, and very well might have also in 2017, if it dropped following a BvS-style release and reception there is a 0% chance I would have watched it, and I feel like that’d be the case for most people. Probably worked out best for him in the end having it come out this way tbh.**Obviously I mean for the quality of the film/getting eyes on this version; everything that he/his collaborators went through to get to this point is terrible, and completing a movie (even one you find creatively fulfilling), seems like a small consolation prize by comparison.
Your comment can apply to EVERY movie on that podcast. I stopped listening after a few episodes. There’s just nothing but bile. Really turned me off Paul Scheer, but I had an inkling based on those insufferable “Remember the 80s” shows where it was basically just “FUCK THE 80S, THEY REALLY HURT ME AND NOW IT’S MY TURN”
Right, the podcast that mocks bad movies picked your sacred cow so it must be a crap episode. Jesus, what a bad take.
See, I thought they summed it up perfectly when they said “Joss Whedon made the worst version of a Justice League movie I’d want to see, and Snyder made the best version of a Justice League movie I don’t want to see.”
To me that was one of those moments in the episode that I couldn’t comprehend what it was even trying to say, but sure sounded deep, didn’t it?The Whedon version is essentially the Snyder version, except they made every scene worse and, somehow amazingly, added sexist/racist choices. Most of the jokes were actually already in the Snyder Version, which has been widely pointed out, and that version was also about these heroes embracing their role. One of the big points about it in reviews is how earnest Snyder’s vision was.So if Whedon version was the worst version of what they wanted to see by being a bad copy of the Snyder version which was the best version they didnt’ want to see, what the hell does that even mean?
I believe what they were saying is that they would have wanted a brighter, more uplifting Justice League (that being what the Justice League usually is in the comics), and they got a sour version of that inasmuch as it was just Snyder’s version with a brighter filter and bad jokes. They did not want a dark and depressing Justice League where everyone is angry, but at least Snyder did a good job with a dark and depressing Justice League.
The only thing I’ve had problems with around the DCU discussion is, If the toxic fandom wasn’t an issue, why can’t these exist?Why can’t DC just go on and make a bunch of different shit? Why does everything have to be some “cohesive universe”?Let it all exist, make these DCU films, have 5 different Batmen, make a bunch of shit that’s not connected. I don’t get the people who are on the side of DCU has to copy MCU to be successful. Throw shit at the wall, some of it will be good, some won’t. That’s fine.
Hell it’s not like the Comic Universe isn’t filled with different versions of the same character, even at the same time. I mean the tone and setup of the Rebirth Batman and Detective Comics are very different. It’s really like 2 different Batman (Batmen?).
Well, now they can’t because they inadvertantly empowered a fanbase that will only ever hate them if they do anything but continue this one dismal storyline.
This strikes me a lot like the people who were convinced Captain Marvel would bomb because Brie Larsen said something innocuous and the “get woke go broke” assholes thought this was going to be their time in the sun, only on the fear-mongering side rather than the celebratory side.Of course, Captain Marvel made over a billion dollars.
ZSJL got made because WB needed content for HBO Max and the majority of the work left to do was in post, which was a suddenly-convenient arrangement for the pandemic, and it let them toss a bone to a popular hashtag along with distancing themselves from a now-radioactive Joss Whedon. That doesn’t mean they’re suddenly going to rearrange their plans for the next few years because people might be assholes on the internet if they don’t.
I think it’s less that people want the Snyderverse to be the sole DC universe from now until eternity and more that they want to see Snyder’s series finished. Nobody objected to Joker, The Batman and The Suicide Squad seem to be getting decent buzz, and I genuinely don’t think anyone cares if Shazam is connected to anything or not.
“Why can’t DC just go on and make a bunch of different shit? Why does everything have to be some “cohesive universe”?”Agree! Realistically was Snyder actually brought on to be the Feige like architect or a giant universe? If he was, he’s the wrong guy because his style is verrrry specific. But we all understand that the dceu was retroactively started and WB wanted to rush to their “avengers.” Prior to the success of avengers, that was the way. They do a few Batman movies, then that set is done. Realistically, Snyder would have done three or four movies and… Moved on. It seems like with th success of Joker and the overall bungling of things WB/DC may be more leaning towards “we’ll have different takes at the same time.” Which is fine and frankly more normal. We’ve always had multiple versions of Batman at once between media and sometimes in comics. I anything DC lends itself better than marvel to exploring alternate versions.
“Why can’t DC just go on and make a bunch of different shit? Why does everything have to be some “cohesive universe”?”They could, and they actually seem to be doing that, what with Joker and the Matt Reeves Batman being stand-alone (at least for the moment) properties. That said, people in boardrooms are seeing all the money the MCU is making and the natural instinct is to try and emulate it.
b/c a shared universe means that everyone has to see every movie. Marvel does it. Its why people watched like, Thor 2.
I think the issue is that DCU did try to copy MCU, like literally every other existing property has tried to do, and tried to rush through it. They start with Superman, make him a miserable mope, and then the next movie has half the Justice League in it. Like is MoS is Superman’s origin story, we never get to see him actually inspire hope or be a hero aside from the BvS sequence where he is doing so begrudgingly. He’s never given a chance to be his own character because two hours later he’s dead. All so they can swing for the fences, and at best hit a liner foul.Right now, they seem to be focusing on playing small ball and they are better for it. Snyder deserved to have his movie released and I am really glad he was able to do it on his terms. It’s never a bad thing when an artist is able to actually get a chance to present a vision that a studio chopped to hell. Now that it’s out though, WB and Snyder need to move on from each other.
Yeah, the way Marvel played it was the right way to go, and DC (among others) tried to skip ahead to the part where they have a massively successful cinematic universe without doing the prep work. Not only does that make the team-up movie more difficult to pull off because you have to introduce most of the main characters, it removes your ability to pivot based on the success or failure of the individual properties; if Feige had handled the MCU like the DCEU, we could’ve gotten “The Avengers” as the third movie, with Edward Norton’s Hulk as a pivotal character and an enormous amount of time wasted on introducing Thor and Cap.
A lot of it also I think the MCU, at the time, was a completely knew and untested thing. Iron Man or Thor or Captain America could have each or all been massive flops. Marvel didn’t have Spiderman so they couldn’t go all in on an extremely popular character, and that caution ended up being a boon.DC has arguably the two most popular superheroes ever created and the Nolan films made a ton of money and got a bunch of critical acclaim already so I think they felt like they could just skip the steps and get straight into it. Especially after the abysmal failure of The Green Lantern. Why risk when you don’t have to, like Marvel had to? The answer obviously is exactly what you’re saying. You lose the impact any character no Superman or Batman has unless you have a four hour long slog of a film to explain everything.
DC has arguably the two most popular superheroes ever created and the Nolan films made a ton of money and got a bunch of critical acclaim already so I think they felt like they could just skip the steps and get straight into it.It’s funny, though, they even did that backwards. Given that those two characters were so popular, they were the ones that didn’t need to have pre-JL films to introduce them. It would’ve made more sense to introduce Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Cyborg in the movies leading up to Justice League, and then bring Batman and Superman for the team-up.I mean, it would’ve made the most sense to introduce all of them pre-JL, even if it wasn’t in their own standalone movie, but they decided to only introduce the two characters that didn’t need an introduction.
I think Green Lanterns failure made them gun shy so they went to the sure thing. Maybe Dark Knight Rises reinforced the idea that that style of film was what DC could make money from or that they had to have these tent pole characters first. I’m with you though. Having Superman or Batman show up to recruit the Flash and help against a big bad its something would have gone a long way to separate DC from the MCU (They don’t show up in each other’s movies!) and establish the shared universe in a cohesive way Marvel wasn’t able to do from the jump.
The amazing thing about this movie is how clueless Joss Whedon was about what he cut and what he thought audiences would understand.Makes me wonder what The Avengers would have looked like with another director.
It’s an interesting question, certainly. I’m loath to defend Whedon, but the key difference is that Avengers was his more or less from the get-go, so it was going to be a lot more consistent and cohesive in pretty much every way imaginable by default.And the brief he seems to have gotten from the studio didn’t help, either. “Take this pretty dark story that’s nearly complete and make it more like Avengers.” And, really, if they’d wanted someone to just sort of bring the train into the station and make something that was going to be like Snyder’s original vision, they would’ve gone in a totally different direction. It seems like that would’ve been a much smarter choice. Whedon was the wrong guy, brought in for the wrong reasons.DC screwed the pooch in myriad ways in this debacle.
I mean, I know it’s a bit de rigueur to slam Whedon at every opportunity these days, and rightly so, but we still need to consider context. Whedon was parachuted into a movie that was about 70% completed by someone else and basically told to come up with an end result that was an almost complete 180 turnaround from the intended direction up to that point, I challenge any director up to and including Orson Welles to make a serviceable silk purse out of that particular sow’s ear.
I hear the very first effects shot completed was Flash running around the falling debris outside saving the entire group of hostages. Whedon figured people wouldn’t know what was happening and cut it.
The thing that makes the final result so odd isn’t that WB had stupid demands (that’s fairly standard for a studio flailing), it’s that in the process of trying to lighten up Justice League, he cut out almost all of the jokes that had been shot to replace them with worse ones.I get most of the creative choices, even if they fell completely flat, but that just baffles me.
No need to wonder, we got it with Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame.
Would have loved to hear June’s takes on the Snyder Cut. This episode really needed her.
I don’t think it would have. She would have been so, so, so uninterested in a four hour superhero movie and I don’t think she would have had all that much to say other than withering resentment at Paul for making her do this Wait… 🤣
There’s certainly a few nuggets June would have provided based on things she had questions about or impressions that were made on her.But, her Paul resentment would be 4:3 IMAX ratio large.
#releaseTheJuneCut
Is it mediocre or polarizing? I’m confused.
Yes, on all three.
People are very divided about that.
Better yet, how is this podcast still getting made?! I love all three of the main members but my god are they usually aggressively uninformed about what they talk about…and say the same things OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND… (and this was old hat in 2013!!!)
So what was the verdict? Crazy or bonkers?
Bananas.
Chapo did a much better episode about the Snyder cut.
though Mantzoukas offers the important reminder that Snyder’s version exists in large part due to the badgering of a toxic fanbase.
I love HDTGM but I was so jealous of June for this show. God it was friggin’ too long, too repetitive, and pretty much a circle jerk of nerds (way beyond a usual nerd show). Please spare me ever hearing this again …
I’ve never been able to get into movie podcasts with a comedic bent like HDTGM or Blank Check because, well… they don’t really seem to know that much about movies? Which, yeah, they’re comedy podcasts ultimately. But they seem to really just not have even a basic knowledge of cinema as an art form, or of film history, or even of what’s going on in contemporary filmmaking outside of the U.S. I don’t know, I sound like a wet blanket maybe, but it’s kind of enervating Blank Check does a lazy, error-ridden episode on Elaine May, or when Paul Scheer is co-host of a podcast called The Canon when I’m pretty confident he has seen maybe a handful of non-English language movies in his lifetime.
I’m looking forward to hearing this HDTGM episode. I am not looking forward to Mantzoukas randomly screaming every time he gets excited, which is always.
You will be shocked, you don’t really get that Jason in this episode.
Because the rest of the world are not some SJW Mary Sue butt hurt cunts like you guys.
Simmmmmssss!!!!!!!!
I listened to the HDTGM/Blank Check episode and thought it was insane how much praise they were giving it. I thought the Snyder Cut passed the (very lengthy) time well enough, but I found it baffling how much they loved it. I still can’t believe there’s a Justice League movie which is unsuitable for kids.
It’s the Superfriends, but Batman says “fuck”!This is what happens when you demand that your childhood grow up with you.
yeah “grow”
Speaking as a fan and defender of ZSJL, Batman saying “I will fucking kill you” to the Joker is the worst thing Zack Snyder has created since the entirety of Sucker Punch.
Tell me about it. A movie like Donner’s Superman or hell a New Hope would be such a hard sell at Warner.
‘How about… Superman saves people because he’s a good guy and enjoys doing it?’‘Fuck off’
“What the hell? You’re telling me the movie ends with the main character smiling at the audience?! There’s no teaser for a sequel that may never be made?!”
(hits intercom button) GUARDS!
Im with June Diane Raphael on this one, I’ve been listening to HDTGM for years and I’ve listened to tons of episodes without even watching the movies they’re covering just for the talk and the comedy but five minutes into this one I was out.
I really like Blank Check and I kind of like HDTGM (it is hard to get past the fact that Bride Wars, that June Diane Raphael wrote is one of the worst movies I have seen in theatres) but both of those podcasts only really work if you have seen the movie they are talking about. And I am not sure it is worth it to subject myself to the Snyder Cut just to listen to the podcast about it.
The reality of Snyder is that he has a wheelhouse in which he works pretty damned well. He’d be a perfectly entertaining filmmaker if he’d stay the fuck in his lane. https://nmsaquatics.com/
I think we’re a few months out from contrarians coming in with the “lol Whedon’s cut was better” takes, but one big point in its favor is that the entire fucking mess is over with in 2 hours.We watched both JL and ZSJL, nearly back-to-back, to see what changes were made and why. It was pretty fascinating from that perspective, because you can see exactly where Whedon’s sensibilities clash with Synder’s. His attempt at the start to make Superman an Earth-loving friend-to-the-children is downright adorable, especially after Snyder just spent two movies essentially making him a murdering god whose human parents told him he owes nothing to these shitty mortals. And having Flash randomly save a Russian family is textbook save-the-cat shit, but you can tell how badly Whedon felt this stuff was missing from Snyder’s previous hate-dirges.In the end, I find myself agreeing with Whedon in principle, but that doesn’t change the fact that this train of bullshit was already steaming down the tracks and it’s absolutely useless to change it now. May as well let Snyder come in and make a 46-hour version his way.
“The Flophouse” did it all ready. Is HDTGM still just people talking over each other and shouting astonishment at what they are seeing?
The disparity of responses is really, really, really funny to me.