In what might be the most fast-paced crossover event yet, the gang of Arrowverse superheroes is racing against time. They need to gather all pieces of a puzzle to keep the antimatter from destroying the rest of the universe. The stakes are even higher now that Earth-38 is destroyed, Oliver is dead, and they only have two of seven Paragons identified at the start of the episode. This episode is only the second part, but every moment counts, and the writing fits as much as it can in every single minute.
The Monitor describes one of the two Paragons he knows of, but doesn’t have identities for, as the “Bat of the Future.” It’s pretty apparent that it’s a different earth version of someone Kate knows, and this is when Kevin Conroy’s Batman comes into play. He lives in an old, creepy manor, overgrown with weeds, just like the cynicism in his heart. Kate can easily commiserate with him, having just gone through some devastating moments in her personal life.
Hope is a significant theme for Kate Kane on this season of Batwoman. She writes about it a lot in her diary entries to Bruce. Though she’s not one to be overly positive, hope is something Kate wants to cling to. But she chose Alice over everyone in her life.—because of this blindspot, her father was held captive, and Mary just watched her mother die in her arms. Kate lost her family all over again, one she didn’t have the sense to cherish while she could. Holding out faith for Beth, unfortunately, bit Kate in the ass big time, which is why it makes sense that Kate gravitates toward Kara.
Kara Zor-El has always been a beacon of hope on Supergirl. She was the one to give Kal a little pep talk in last night’s episode, and now she’s the Paragon of Hope. But after Alura’s second death, the loss of her people (again), and Oliver’s sacrifice, Kara is done. She’s dejected; oddly, that sparks Kate’s hope again. Even though she was Kara’s foil, they’ve now swapped places slightly, and she’s the one giving Kara the talk. Kate struggles mightily with faith. And even though they stick together like kids who click first at camp, their ideals are what balance them out.
And just like that, Bruce also crushes Kate’s burgeoning trust in him as a Paragon. Unlike the similarities that exist between Earth-38’s Kal and Brandon Routh’s Kingdom Come Superman, Kate doesn’t have that. This Bruce is nothing like her or her cousin. In addition to being a lot older, he’s also much more cynical—he’s also a killer. He does not share Kate’s morals in her role as a caped vigilante, and that’s a cause for great concern. Seeing this version of Bruce holds a mirror up to Kate’s rough patch, to her loss of hope, and shatters her outlook.
From the moment this crossover started, Kate’s been abrasive and on edge. Sure, her hardened exterior is partly due to being surrounded by a ton of strangers, forced into this crisis when she’d much rather be interrogating the Wonderland Gang. But she’s also licking her wounds from a big loss. Seeing a murderous Bruce brings her back to reality a bit. This is not the “hero” she wants to end up as.
Lex Luthor’s return was teased at the end of Supergirl’s last season, but it still isn’t fun to see him return and try to kill all Supermen, no less. These crossovers are, no doubt, a feat to pull off. But the writers did a great job of weaving in some of the most famous versions of Superman, who is also one of the most famous heroes, period. Tom Welling and Brandon Routh’s cameos could make or break Superman’s various returns. But they were done so well, especially Welling’s. Even without powers, only Clark Kent from Smallville can brush off a Luthor with a nonchalant smirk like that. Sigh.
The tough thing about these crossovers, though, is that some of the shows get the short end of the stick. For some time, Supergirl was left on the backburner or treated as an afterthought. This year, Batwoman herself is playing a major role, but the other characters from her show don’t have a spot in this mega-crossover. That’s okay, since it’s her first as part of a full-fledged show, but it was a bummer to not hear from Mary or see Alice commandeer her Wonderland gang or an evil plot. 2020 holds much anticipation in that regard.
Going into tomorrow’s episode, tensions are very high. There’s a lot of foreboding when it comes to the heroes, like with Oliver’s soul retrieval and the arrival of Barry’s team. Since Oliver’s death was not what the Monitor anticipated, are Barry and Kara still saved from his sacrifice? And who are the other Paragons? Whatever happens, Kate and Kara are staying in the driver’s seat of this crossover, seeing as they’re both Paragons and have a lot riding on the next few episodes. Not to mention the possible, massive betrayal looming on the horizon between the two. Kate now has possession of Kryptonite from Earth-99’s Bruce Wayne. Kara seems like she’ll do anything to try and save Earth-38. Kate has her own brand of courage now; will she use it to stand in Kara’s way?
Stray observations
- A big part of the episode took Mia, Sara, and Barry away from the others in an attempt to revive Oliver. Mia is stubborn and set in her mind, like her father, and doesn’t want to listen to Sara. However, bringing back a soulless Arrow doesn’t seem like a good thing during their time of crisis on all Earths. It was nice for Constantine to pop in, though.
- Raise your hand if that picture of alternate-reality Beth and Kate got you a little weepy. After everything Kate has been through this season and the very recent pain Alice put her in, seeing a happy Kate and Beth was a little too much. Maniacal Alice is a very welcome staple of Batwoman—I rave about her character each week—but this wholesome image of what could have been pulls at the heartstrings.
- Despite a small showing from the cast of Batwoman, Luke Fox’s part this year is nothing to complain about. Always underutilized on Batwoman, Luke was included in the crossover as a different version of himself. He’s much less rigid and wears his shirts wide open. Kara’s comment about Luke being good-looking elicits the funniest reaction from Kate.
- During the Superman vs. Superman battle, they were playing the original Superman theme, which was a very cool addition.
- Luckily Lois didn’t stick around to hear the naughty book Mick was reading to young Jonathan. But the man’s got a way with kids. I’ll give him that.
- The little jokes here and there about the doppelgangers never get old. Remember when Routh’s Ray Palmer made a joke about Kara looking like his cousin? This is obviously alluding to his time as the Man of Steel in Superman Returns. Now he’s playing Superman again, and there are jokes about Ray looking like him. To be expected, yet still entertaining.
- The Anti-Monitor hijacked Lyla/Harbinger. The poor woman is just trying to keep stuff together, and it just keeps getting harder.
- Tomorrow we’ll see Black Lightning make an appearance. Will The Flash’s Cisco actually get a leading role in their episode in the crossover? Fingers crossed.
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– It’s so weird to hear the “Batman: the Animated Series” Batman voice coming out of a real person.
– That…that is just the perfect ending for “Smallville” Superman. And he has daughters.
– Bruce’s talk with Kate. I think that that’s going to turn her away from trying to kill Alice.
– Batman’s trophies. I see Mr. Freeze’s snow globe.
– So Conroy’s Batman is basically The Dark Knight Returns Batman.
– It’s amazing how much bigger Routh is than Hoechlin. He basically towers over him.
– I really liked Kara as the paragon of hope, and she and Kate have really good chemistry.
– And now the other shoe has dropped on Harbinger….but where is Pariah?
Trophies: Joker’s joker, Riddler’s cane, Freeze’s snowglobe, Clark’s glasses, a wilted plant (presumably Ivy).The only one I couldn’t readily identify was a spinning circular object on a pedestal next to the glasses. It was never in proper focus. Penguin’s monocle, Clock King’s watch, hard to say….
So far it feels like they kinda dropped the ball on Pariah, especially after they tacked that Flash scene at the end of last week’s episodes.
I think they’ve said they’ll cover that in the Flash chapter. Don’t hold me to it though!
It’s a weird thing to tease at the end of the other shows if they’re not gonna follow up on it until halfway through, but maybe that’s just me. It also kinda misses the point of Pariah in the original Crisis somewhat, and as good as Tom is, his lines just seem so goofy last episode.
“- That…that is just the perfect ending for “Smallville” Superman. And he has daughters.”And Chloe is off… doing Chloe… things. But it’s fine. Watchtower is fine. No need to even peek in over there, so fine it is. Yep. Yep yep. Ahem. Michael Rosenbaum didn’t want to shave his head, huh?
I think people try to pretend Chloe doesn’t exist these days.
Probably for the best. Kate might give Chloe a brand of her own if she found out!
I think people try to pretend Chloe doesn’t exist these days.
The story goes that the EPs just asked Rosenbaum at the worst time possible. Rosenbaum was taking care of a passing family member, the EPs reached out late and can’t give out the script, basically it would be nothing but a one-scene cameo for next to no money, and Rosenbaum just couldn’t commit with all those caveats.
Rosenbaum declined because the writers had no idea what his role would’ve been at the time.
Yeah, they were more-or-less writing the “alternate Earth” versions of the characters based entirely on who they could get. It’s pretty clever. “Okay, we’ve got this section where a bunch of universes die and we’ve got this section where our Lex kills a bunch of Supermen, and we’ve got this whole multiverse “paragon” thing to do. We’re putting in calls to literally every living person who has ever had any part in any DC superhero movie or TV show and we’ll figure out what actually goes in these sections based off of who says yes.”
I’m sure the Monitor, if asked, would say that while Earth-167 Chloe is fine and prospering, multiverse shenanigans prevent us from seeing her face and if we need help from one of her, we can rely on the surviving Earth-38 Chloe who’s played by someone similar-looking but much less of a moral outlier, like Sarah Michelle Gellar, for example. Or, for that matter, while we’re on the subject of random doppelgangers of different characters, how about Rachel Skarsten? I did appreciate that Routh’s Superman and Durance’s Lois were (re)introduced so close together, as if to reinforce the message that yes, don’t be confused, the muktiverse is just really weird with its coincidental facial genetics sometimes.
Rosenbaum said he was offered no script, no real money and no real time to decide. He probably would have been another glorified cameo.
It was a cameo, not even glorified, they made that clear to him. He was going to get paid for a day of work and that work would depend on who else they could get. It made sense to refuse, but he made it seem like he should be offended b the offer, which he shouldn’t.
He made it sound like it was a Smallville reunion that he was mistreated by. This is a goofy CW show crossover. He was probably right to be insulted a little, but the target audiences for a standard CW show probably have no clue who he is.
Which makes perfect sense, both in what they were offering and why he declined. I’m certain the writers wrote the scripts based off of the actors they could get, they were all almost certainly getting scale, and none of them could have a truly impactful role since they’ve been planning the Crisis story forever so any part the guests played couldn’t be a major factor in the story. “Hey, we got Burt Ward! Cool, he’ll walk his dog for a minute and deliver a funny line. DONE!”
“We REALLY want somebody from the Burton Batman movies. Michael Keaton said no. Kim Basinger said no. Michelle Pfeiffer said no.”
“Hey, Chris O’Donnell said yes!”
“Dammit Gary, I said Burton Batman. You’re fired.”
“Um, somebody named Robert Wuhl said yes.”
“That’ll do!”
If Rosenbaum would’ve said yes, everything would have played out the same, only maybe he and Tom Welling’s Clark Kent were friends again and he’s visiting his goddaughters on the Kent farm and maybe he would have been the one to clock our Lex and say something like, “Was I ever that insufferable?”
It would have been great to have him, but no major loss. We got way too many smallville seasons, so we’re not hurting for Lex content. Getting Welling to briefly wrap up his character was all that mattered for this. It’s a CW crossover, not a Smallville reunion show.
“Chris O’Donnell said yes!”Take your star and go.
He asked for a lot of money.
My understanding from what Rosenbaum has said, is that he got a very last minute call to be on the show and they wanted him to do it for basically no money, and zero information upfront on what his role would actually be (because they hadn’t actually written his part yet).So he turned it down, disappointing but understandable.
Ad thhey couldn’t even give him exact dates as to when he’d be filming.
If the story of how they approached Rosenbaum is halfway true I don’t blame him for skipping out this time. (Doesn’t mean we can’t get him later.)
They called him way too lateMaybe when Chloe is out of being in jail for being a recruiter in a sex cult she can play the CWs version of Granny Goodness
Yeah, it was a trip to hear Conroy doing THE VOICE in live action
Man, I was so bummed out that they made Bruce into a burnout psycho just to build up Kate. I’ve been looking forward to a Bat family team up for months, and instead we got that.
A Bat-Family team-up would be meaningless if it’s not Kate’s Bruce, anyway.
I don’t think that the point was to build Kate up. With her contemplating killing Alice, it was the Ghost of Christmas Future showing up for Kate.
Yeah, it was a trip to hear Conroy doing THE VOICE in live actionFriend, you and everyone else need to drop everything and watch this episode of Tim Daly’s web series right now. And probably also this one with the League of Supermen.
And once again we never got to see him in the Costume!
I was weirdly OK with that. Wouldn’t have minded seeing it, but now that I’ve seen the scene, I have no problem with it.I DO think it would be absolutely hilarious if in the final ep they cut back to Smallville Clark who’s gotten his powers back, starts to rip open his shirt in a phonebooth… and then his earth disappears.
It’s amazing how much bigger Routh is than Hoechlin. He basically towers over him.I like how this episode lampshades that the Supermen of the multiverse are all much bigger than Tyler Hoechlin, and this does not go unnoticed by Lois.
I’d have to look at the stuff again, but it looked like all of those trophies were specifically from the movie versions of Batman’s rogue gallery. The Joker card looked like it was from Batman Begins, while the Riddler cane and snowglobe from the Schumacher films.
So Conroy’s Batman is basically The Dark Knight Returns Batman.
I’m pretty sure some of his speech about Superman and why he had to kill him is lifted directly from DKR but I’m not enough of a pro to hunt it down.
I was basing it off of how he describes Superman, but somebody else actually connected the two quotes for me. It’s the same.
It’s not. The Batman in DKR never killed anyone but the Joker. He didn’t intend or need to kill Supes, just kick his ass until he could fake his own death in the process.
*edit*
I just remembered The Joker in DKR killed himself to make it look like Batman did it.
The Batman in DKR never killed anyone“Rubber bullets….honest.”
He killed a mutant gang member with a machine gun.
I’ve heard people try to interpret that scene differently, but it sure looks like he shot her to me.
Didn’t he end up killing the mutant leader during that second battle in the mud? It has been a while since I read it so I could be wrong, but that is what I remember……..He did specifically decline to kill the Joker, although he did leave him so injured that all the Joker had to do was basically turn his head to break his own neck.
That injury he inflicted on the Joker was fatal. All the Joker did was speed up the process.
The lines about what he learned from his parents and Clark bowing to authority came straight from DKR. But I think this version of Bruce was an even more extreme take on Batflek from BvS.
Bruce’s exo-skeleton is from Kingdom Come.
You are correct. It is the bit about the world only making sense if you force it to.
It is. It’s from the narration during his fight with Superman at the end.
I also thought his line ““a little souvenir from the old hometown” was from DKR, but after looking it up, it’s Hackman’s line from the first Superman movie.
Would be interesting in the next 3 episodes if Kate were to encounter a world where Beth is one of her sidekicks and Mary is the villain. Give her some practice on how to redeem a killer family member without permanently alienating one of their victims’ relatives who is also a family member.
– It’s so weird to hear the “Batman: the Animated Series” Batman voice coming out of a real person.I closed my eyes and he was there. It was amazing, I love how Conroy can just make that happen. Ah so good, I hope he reprises his not evilish role on Batwoman sometimes.
– That…that is just the perfect ending for “Smallville” Superman. And he has daughters.
Agreed, this was a perfect Smallville ending. Also once again Tom Welling didn’t suit up.
– Bruce’s talk with Kate. I think that that’s going to turn her away from trying to kill Alice.
It turned her into the Paragon of Courage. Does this mean she can Digivolve Greymon now?
– Batman’s trophies. I see Mr. Freeze’s snow globe.
They were nice Easter Eggs!
– So Conroy’s Batman is basically The Dark Knight Returns Batman.
Yes, the fact they copied his Kingdom Come design was a nice subversion of that. I also kind of liked thinking it was Batman vs. Superman if he actually succeeded.
– It’s amazing how much bigger Routh is than Hoechlin. He basically towers over him.
Ya, he is 6’2 almost as tall as Tom Welling. Though not as tall as Chris Reeve was. Also he really did bulk up for the role so that gives him a bit more heft.
– I really liked Kara as the paragon of hope, and she and Kate have really good chemistry.
Give me WORLDS FINEST – PART II DAMNIT!
– And now the other shoe has dropped on Harbinger….but where is Pariah?
Ya… wondering that myself…
Di-di-di-digimon.
Change… into digital championsTo… save the DC universe
“So Conroy’s Batman is basically The Dark Knight Returns Batman.”My favorite part of the episode was Bruce Wayne directly quoting The Dark Knight Returns during the climactic scene: “The world only makes sense if you force it to……”
I appreciated how often they shot from over Conroy’s shoulder to make those of us who found putting a face to the voice off-putting more comfortable. My stupid sound bar went nuts during Batman’s introduction so I missed most of Luke. It’s an excuse to watch again.
Agree on all points. Actually kind of distracted by Conroy in the flesh. Plus… he looks more than a little like John Glover, who played Alexander Luthor on Smallville, which is doubling distracting. But loved that most of his dialogue was basically the Dark Knight Returns lines.Also, between her noticing Luke Fox and then losing her train of thought to remark and Routh Superman being totally jacked, seems like Kara is also the Paragon of Thirst.
I thought Conroy was a great swerve, you think he’ll be stern mentor Batman Beyond Bruce or Kingdom Come, but they slowly reveal that he’s basically a stone cold crazypants killer. not even BvS or DKR Batman was that brutal. It might be a bit of a disappointment to use Conroy and think he’ll be a good guy mentor but I appreciated that it slowly revealed that Kara and Kate were stuck in a horror story instead.
– That…that is just the perfect ending for “Smallville” Superman. And he has daughters.Perfect ending up until a few minutes later when they’re entire universe is wiped out and they’re all dead. But I did like how they had this version end up.
A little disappointed we didn’t get more quick cut cameos at the start. It would have been a nice trend for them to continue (even if we’re just watching them all die). Otherwise I’d say this was a stronger episode than the first in terms of pacing. The weakest point was definitely the Jonah Hex ‘cameo’ if you can even call it Hex when he neither has, nor fully receives, his scar and is basically just a random asshole goon that could have been anyone.
I’m honestly thinking they couldn’t justify the makeup budget for such a short cameo.
I was a little confused by Hex’s appearance, when they hopped Earths did they also travel backwards in time? Or was the implication that Hex was using the Pit to give himself immortality?For a special with a total running time of 3 hours 20ish minutes they are absolutely *blistering* through scenes with little to no context.
I had a very different reaction to the Hex cameo, maybe because unlike so many of the others it wasn’t spoiled.
“Since Oliver’s death was not what the Monitor anticipated, are Barry and Kara still saved from his sacrifice?”Didn’t the Monitor say in Part 1 that the deal only saved them from the events of Elseworlds, and they could still die in Crisis?
I’m hoping that Kara and Kate can compare notes on the Lena and Alice situations, respectively. It’s interesting that the series have run with similar “can this person I love be redeemed” angles, albeit with radically different details (and, so far, conclusions).
“it was a bummer to not hear from Mary or see Alice commandeer her Wonderland gang or an evil plot”Hard disagree. In the grand scheme of, you know, the end of all things, they are small potatoes and Id rather just see the all the big time tickets interacting with each other.One of my favorite individual crossover eps they’ve done, seeing multiple familiar Superman and a broken (literally and figuratively) Bruce Wayne by THE MAN himself, Kevin Conroy, the A and B plots were just great engaging fanservice-y comic goodness (the C plot of digging up a Lazarus Pit didn’t hold all its weight, but all is forgiven with Constantine, Jonah, Mick, and Gideon Snart). Everyone acted their asses off, the big Super fight was good TV battle stuff, and the plot was a lot more snappy and clear than the Ep. 1 setup. Bring on the Flash chapter!
Agreed. It would be enormously difficult shoehorning Alice into all of this, and both the Alice material and the crossover material would feel diminished as a result.
Yeah, there’s so much plate spinning right now — again, resurrecting Oliver was a TERTIARY subplot tonight — there’s just no way to do anything worthwhile with Batwoman’s side of things specifically with multiverse-collapsing things going on. Crisis needs to do the things it came to do.
Besides which, Alice is nuts and on the run, Jacob’s grieving and a workaholic, Mary’s grieving and pissed at Kate, Catherine’s dead, and Sophie is busy looking up the word ‘bisexual’ in a dictionary. There’s no natural reason any of them would interact with Kate right now, even if Kate weren’t busy saving the multiverse. Kate’s Luke would have made sense, but Kate went to another Earth, so we got that Earth’s Luke instead.
It’d be cool if Kate, later on, tried to use Crisis as a smarmy trump card against Alice – just as a throwaway line, like “bitch you ain’t nothin’” and Alice was just straight-up delighted that Kate is starting to talk batshit nonsense.“Saving the multiverse from a god’s evil twin? Oh my dear, that sounds like something that *Alice’s* sister would say!”
I was sort of glad Alice and the gang weren’t there. I like her a lot and I’ve been worrying about Alice burn-out.When Brandon came on as Clark Kent/Superman it seemed to me that he was doing full on Christopher Reeve before dialing it back a bit. Yet another cameo?
He is the Reeve Superman. He was still maintaining his secret identity when the team bumped into him. After the initial meeting, there was no point in keeping up the cover.
This was the last place I expected for a Jonah Hex appearance but I’m okay with it.
Agreed on that, but what about Psycho Pirate? He was in the Crisis teaser last year in Arkham with the assumption that he would play a part, yet he’s nowhere to be seen.
I actually enjoyed this a lot more than the first part. I saw Mick’s “You had me at beer” coming from a mile away, but it was still funny. And “A little souvenir from your hometown” is such a good line that it almost makes up for “That sounds like a job for…us”. And the whole moody, armoured alien-hating Batman is a jab at BvS, right? Just like how the Smallville Clark Kent giving up his powers and starting a family is a reference to Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? (spoilers, I guess)Also, I really want to give a shout out to the special effects team, for making Tom Welling look like a giant when standing next to Jon Cryer. That must have been at least half of the show’s budget.
Welling is 6-3, Cryer is 5-9. Oh, you were made a funny?–Lois
Clearly Bruce and Clark never had a meeting over the Marthas.
The worlds most expensive stool.
“Who is Patrick Stewart?”When Travers asked Stewart how he prepared to play a pile of poop, the jokes continued.
“It’s been a lifelong preparation,” Stewart said. “I knew a time would come that all of that hard work would add up to something.”This is the right game, right? Alex?Asked whether the Queen would approve, the knight replied: “I think she will approve because she will know that, for me, poop has been a lifelong work in progress.”
As for whether he’d be going method for the role he said that yes, for him it has been a “totally internal” process.“Until it’s external, of course,” he joked. “It’s interesting – when I was an infant, it was more spontaneous. In my teens, it took a kind of comedic spurt; it was low-farce, rather than high comedy. But as I matured, so did my output.”Now it’s time for my own
Yes, I kept thinking that Earth-99 Batman is the Murderverse Batman (rampage kills and all)
Not everything is a jab at BvS. You people just sound ridiculous sometimes. The armored Wayne is clearly a Kingdom Come nod, and a too-far-gone Batman is far from something BvS came up with.I liked the comics’ original implication during one of the early Superman/Batman arcs, where the Kingdom Come Superman that popped up there was implied to be Whatever Happened… Superman. That was before the Multiverse shenanigans decided that Kingdom Come was another Earth entirely, and then Geoff Johns made his own Kingdom Come sequel. Which was good, but it was ultimately just a JSA story.
You peopleWhich of your posts should I respond to?
Now I can’t speak for all of “You people”, but for me it’s not just the armour or the quote about his parents, which people have pointed out could be referring to either BvS or the Dark Knight Returns. It’s specifically the distrust of Superman, as well as being xenophobic toward aliens and the nonchalant attitude about killing, that bears the biggest similarity to the DC Cinematic Murderverse.
Yes, you people. Angry fanboys. We’ve had this discussion before. I’m being nice so I just throw that in as a jab.And again, BvS(Murderverse is such petulant term to use) didn’t come up with those traits for Batman, but I guess people see what they wanna see and hear what they wanna hear. That’s another comic book reference, in case you think I just made it up like BvS apparently did.
Murderverse is such petulant term to useNot unlike “angry fanboys” or “you people”.
Don’t feel so offended. Angry fanboys are petulant. Or are you saying you’re condoning fanboys who send death threats to directors and actors?See, we’re back at this again, and you’re gonna make up excuses again to deflect the topic.
Or are you saying you’re condoning fanboys who send death threats to directors and actors?{citation needed} you’re gonna make up excuses again to deflect the topic.The “topic” is this week’s episode of Batwoman, which I am more than happy to discuss. No one here was talking about “toxic fanboys” until you brought it up out of nowhere.
Citation needed? Just take a look at our previous debate on another old topic you ignored where you claimed toxic fanboys “don’t exist”.Yes, this week’s episode of Batwoman that has no reference to BvS, but you somehow brought it up anyway because you just hate the movie so much like a fanboy wont to do.You know, I’m gonna make this one nice thing I do today, I’m just gonna ignore you–hey, just like you ignored me the last time I called you out for condoning toxic fandoms–and let’s just be civil from now on. I can be the bigger man. I’m not some angry fanboy who irrationally hates a movie someone made that I didn’t like.
hey, just like you ignored me the last time I called you
Of course it’s a dig at BvS. That line Bruce says about how his parents taught him a different lesson: that the world only makes sense if you force it to is taken, word for word, from BvS.
It’s taken from TDKR…
It’s odd to me you’re investing this much emotional energy into denying an obvious reference. Maybe you should instead start preparing defenses for why your cut of Justice League will inevitably be dour and dismal, rather than just mediocre.
Sigh. This is why when people don’t know the actual references, it becomes a tiresome argument. That line from both BvS and Arrowverse’s CoIE was taken from Frank Miller’s TDKR. You know what that is? One of the most popular Batman comics ever released?
Thank you for your time and your emotional labor, Mr. Snyder.
PS Suckerpunch was dogshit
Do you… Do you even read Batman comics? I’m so confused here. What don’t you understand about both BvS and CoIE referencing The Dark Knight Returns? Do you know the concept of references? Do you understand that they make movies and TV shows based on comic books?
Are ‘angry fanboys’ typically angrier than angry fangirls?
Supposedly, since the term “angry fangirls” are seldom heard.
DP.
‘The atmosphere in the room had just dropped 10 degrees. It was almost certainly the [use of the phrase] ’you people’.’ – Terry Pratchett, ‘Johnny and the Bomb’
Not everything is a jab at BvS. You people just sound ridiculous sometimes. The armored Wayne is clearly a Kingdom Come nod, and a too-far-gone Batman is far from something BvS came up with.I liked the comics’ original implication during one of the early Superman/Batman arcs, where the Kingdom Come Superman that popped up there was implied to be Whatever Happened… Superman. That was before the Multiverse shenanigans decided that Kingdom Come was another Earth entirely, and then Geoff Johns made his own Kingdom Come sequel. Which was good, but it was ultimately just a JSA story.
Also, I really want to give a shout out to the special effects team, for making Tom Welling look like a giant when standing next to Jon Cryer. That must have been at least half of the show’s budget.Welling is just that big. I remember being in the audience for a Smallville panel at Dragon*Con years ago, and I swear, the cast spent half the panel talking about how freakishly ginormous Welling was an how being around him made them all feel like hobbits.
He’s actually playing Kingdom Come Batman.
Kevin Conroy’s character has elements of the Kingdom Come Batman, just like the Brandon Routh Superman does. But their are clear allusions to the DKR/BvS Batman.He even references the Gene Hackman Lex Luthor at some point.
And Superman 3 and his kid from Superman Returns!
It may be a jab at BvS or DKR, but I found MurderBat consisted with the DCAU version. I always thought that the DCAU Joker’s endgame was to get Batman to kill him because he knew a Batman who could kill was worse for Gotham than anything he could do himself. And when he talked about how easy it was to keep killing after the first time, it reminded me of his great monologue in Red Hood, which is one of my favorite character moments.
It may be a jab at BvS or DKR, but I found MurderBat consisted with the DCAU version.That’s how I understood it, since they used the BTAS theme song and, ya know, Kevin Conroy.
It’s the BTAS Batman 25 years later, after events similar to BvS and/or DKR where this Batman went down the murder-bat path. His speech about Superman was a blend of both Batfleck’s “1% chance” speech AND the DKR “tool of the government” problems with the Man of Steel.
DCAU’s Batman was specifically shown to turn away from the path ‘Murderbat’ did though. Batman Beyond and Terry McGuinness’ brief time in the Justice League Unlimited established that.
Murderbat seemed like a combination of all the movie Bats or one of those Batman alternates from direct to video animated adaptations of comic arcs that Conroy sometimes voices.
I absolutely said to my wife that I thought it was really fitting they seemed to give Welling’s Superman the “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” ending…
The only thing missing from Conroy’s appearance was a better musical cue from the animated series, but everything he did was so damn good I’ll take it anyway.
There was so much to unpack in this episode I’m not even going to try to list it all. I know they’re still in table-setting mode, but I’m enjoying the hell out of this.Probably my favorite thing about tonight was the female teamups we got across the three storylines: Iris/Lois, Sara/Mia, Kara/Kate. They’re all pretty much perfect, and I very much would like to see more of them in the future.Didn’t see using the Lazarus Pits coming. I did like how credible each of the characters were being about it: Mia’s desperate to get her dad back, Barry feels a ton of guilt at Oliver trading his life for Barry’s, and Sara’s just accepting and willing to move on. I’m genuinely stressed about where this is going to go.I’m predicting (i.e. hoping) that the seven Paragons are the six leads (Flash, Green Arrow, Black Lightning, Supergirl, White Canary, Batwoman) plus Routh Superman.Also, Ray building a Paragon Detector is deeply silly, and I love it.
Kara/Kate. They’re all pretty much perfectI really liked that last scene with them. A little reminder that Kara is willing to rearrange the universe in order to save the people she loves (just like her cousin) while Kate is willing to stop her by any means necessary.
I am solidly in the Kane-El camp after tonight. Lena can see herself out.
At this point by far the healthiest person for Lena to focus on is herself.
Dammit, Kara!…sorry, just getting ready.
Nah, Kara seems to have a… shall we say understanding with the laws of time, space and reality. Basically she’ll respect their right to exist and even impact on her life but occasionally they need to look the other way for five minutes. Seems to work out well for all concerned so far 😉
I think the concern was that Monitor said bringing worlds back would drive you crazy
The paragons being the respective show leads would make sense, but maybe too much sense? It’d be pretty predictable, is what I’m saying, particularly after the paper-thin misdirect tonight where obviously “bat of the future” was Kate Kane but they dragged it out until the eventual reveal at the end of the episode (not that I’m complaining, the jaunt was worth the flimsy excuse).I’d like them to throw us at least *one* true curveball. I know something crazy like Captain Carrot is too much to hope for, but something like that.
I was so hoping the “Bat of the Future” would have been an unannounced Terry McGinnis, but I’ve no idea who could play live action Terry.
I was hoping Future Batman as well. Also someone up thread suggested Will Friedle himself. Which in my head I don’t right away say no to. Maybe it could work.
For some reason Gregory Smith comes to mind
I feel like J’onn has to be a paragon because of the way the Monitor tested him.
That certainly makes sense. Just like Kate had to confront murder-bat to become a paragon, it makes sense that the same would hold true of J’onn confronting his brother and his greatest guilt.
I get that. But the sentimentalist in me really wants both Barry and Oliver to be Paragons as well.
Barry: meh. Ollie: definitely.
Black Lightning is a given, considering that’s really the only way to get him involved.
Holy shit, that makes ALL the sense. Of course!
Right? Since there is absolutely NO relationship between the Arrowverse and Black Lightning up until now, the Arrowverse heroes tracking him down as a paragon is the only way his inclusion makes logical sense.
Aaand I was totally wrong.
Haha Deus ex Pariah. Your way makes a lot more sense, though.
Building a Paragon Detector is very on-brand for Ray. He already built the Anachronism and Mythsteries Detectors.
I am wondering what Nyssa told Mia about Sara that was “all she needed to know” about her. That she will tell you she loves you but then break your heart and then get with some genetically perfect clone b*tch from the future? Apparently Nyssa has some unresolved issues with Sara that I did not realize
I feel like that response says more about your feelings about Sarah, lol, cuz to me “all you need to know about her” could just as simply be “Sara was resurrected in the Lazarus Pit”, therefore making it relevant for this situation
No Mia’s tone to Sara with that comment was way judgy-ier than that
I didn’t even think of that. Now I’m really curious to know more about what stories Nyssa shared with Mia. (*cue much-needed Katrina Law appearance*)
Also, I couldn’t help but notice that Mia didn’t react when Sara commented about her and Oliver getting arrested on multiple occasions.
I am dying for Katrina Law to return as Nyssa and have scenes with her protege Mia. Maybe they are saving that for the spinoff but I am impatient for it. I am glad that Mia keeps mentioning Nyssa anyway though & always with such respect & affection
Didn’t she specifically follow up on that comment?
Yeah, she did. I was misremembering.
Lmao
I am assuming Ryan Choi will be one of the Paragons
Jumping back to Oliver’s deathbed speech, when he said Barry was the best of them, my immediate thought was, “dude, you haven’t been around the Flash-verse lately, Barry is fucking dumb.”
After the high of Part 1, I felt this one crashed to Earth. All the Paragons so far just happen to be in the same group of heroes who all know each other? Also, the Monitor’s plan for Lex was to have him randomly assassinate other Supermen so that, what, he could get Routh Superman on board? And they had to fight why? Hoping Part 3 rights this ship.
To offer a (mostly) canon explanation: The Paragons being together makes sense as the Monitor has brought this group together and, via Harbinger, picked who to save (sorry Alura!). It’s also shown that while the Monitor has a reasonable idea on peoples destiny he’s not an oracle, he doesn’t necessarily know every move just what he sees as the necessary ones. He knew Lex had a part to play though not precisely what that was and, by his standards, he was right. It wasn’t a *nice* part and might not be over yet but would someone looking to save all of existence really be overly concerned with a few individuals sacrificed for the cause?
Honestly, I enjoyed this part a lot more than Part 1. Part 1 was all action, but very clearly mid-low-budget TV action with a lot of stuff either handwaved or ignored (like, why exactly did Oliver hanging around for another minute or two save a billion lives?).This part was less action, and more about characters and conversations and delving into the concepts. Sure, maybe it’s just nostalgia goggles hitting me hard because EEEEEEEEEEEEE CONROY BATMAN, but it felt like there was more meat to this episode instead of characters firing energy blasts and batarangs and arrows at enemies that are conveniently offscreen.
They’re doing a really good job threading humor into this so it doesn’t become unbearably grim. Unlike, um, Black Lightning.
Yup. It could have been a random B or C lister. Vixen (modern day). Jesse Quick.. A villian?
One thing that both this and the quasi-Crisis episode of “Black Lightning” did really well is to use the multiverse as a framework to explore different choices. On “Black Lightning”, Jen/Gen/Jinn responded to the same set of problems with three completely different strategies and completely different results.The future versions of Batman and Superman on Earth-99 and Earth-96 (the Superman Returns Earth) respectively basically experienced the worst case scenarios. Batman became a monster, embracing all of the qualities he despised in his enemies and ending up crippled and bitter. Superman, in spite of everything, persevered and stayed true to himself. Though his backstory aligns with Kingdom Come Superman, he didn’t succumb to any of Kingdom Come Superman’s failings.And then there’s the “Smallville” version of Clark Kent, who isn’t Superman at all any more. His world either solved its threats or found other heroes to carry the burden. He made the “selfish” choice to settle down and raise a family. Tom Welling did a great job of capturing his peace and contentment.
“Smallville” had its own Justice League complete with Green Arrow, Flash, and Black Canary. The even had their own Mia Smoak before she was a thing in Chloe Sullivan/Watchtower.
Chloe was more like proto-Felicity than Mia.
I meant Felicity. Darn 15 minute edit button.
Kinja needs to eff off, really.
You just had the best double post ever.
Kinja needs to eff off, really.
Do you mean Felicity? Because Mia is a fighter which was not Chloe’s role at all. Damn now I wish they could have gotten Hartley but I guess his NBC contract has a noncompete clause with CW
One thing that both this and the quasi-Crisis episode of “Black Lightning” did really well is to use the multiverse as a framework to explore different choices.Black Lightning’s tie-in was fantastic in how they used the multiverse concept to frame Jen’s inner conflict from her ongoing plot thread, leading to an all-out cliffhanger and callout to follow Black Lightning into tomorrow’s Crisis episode (whereas I think a lot of folks figured Black Lightning would blip in and out with little impact to his own series). As a bonus the whole thing felt like a riff on the standard A Christmas Carol stories that are common this time of year, so they really landed a 3-in-1.
I’m betting that Jen shows up on the back half of Crisis. It seemed like what actually happened to her when the Anti-Matter wave hit was left up in the air.
If we never see another second of the Smallville universe, that was a pretty great scene to end it on. (it was kinda annoying that Iris, Lois and Clark 38 didn’t give him another thought after Lex sent them away)So Earth 99 Luke could be a stand in for Good Place Chidi, Eleanor wouldn’t mind muchWhat the hell is the CW thinking by kicking Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford to the curb? Tonight episode proved that Routh is awesome and his wife gets to stay just for the way she said “Gary, you dick!”Um, Kate, what are you doing with that kryptonite, ma’am?Sara, will you kick Mia in her angry brat ass, already?and I notice that Sara didn’t even try to mack on Kate. Two seasons ago, she would have been relentless. The line from Sara about promising the team “no more crossovers” ha.The Monitor vs. a crying baby? Mick The Nanny?
Um, Kate, what are you doing with that kryptonite, ma’am?Presumably, it’s the same reason that her cousin always has kryptonite on hand……Just in case.
Or why Ollie somehow got a hold of some.
I’m still trying to figure how he got some though.
A good question that they’ve never bothered to answer. Not even sure how it’s possible since Superman & Supergirl aren’t things on Earth-1.
Yeah, I loved that moment. To me it made her the real deal.
Yeah, I get that. What I don’t get is Kate doesn’t seem to be the paranoid asshole that Bruce is nor does she know Kara well enough to decide that she needs to carry around some Kryptonite “just in case”. I hope she brought enough to take out the other two Kryptonians, “just in case” And to swipe it from “Dark Knight Bruce” knowing what he did?
You know real problems are going down when Sara can keep her pants on for the time being.
Not so much ‘real problems’ as ‘committed relationship’.
I really did look forward to each year’s crossover as the latest episode of Sarah Lance: Space/Time Sexual Conquistador
Might also have something to do with the fact that she’s in a committed relationship…
We didn’t even get to see Sara and Kate formally introduced. Hopefully we’ll get more when the Waverider crashes Kate’s new bar.
In the meanwhile, I’m not worried – Kara has a tendency to inadvertently hit on Kate, which will keep her distracted.
I don’t watch Legends anymore but isn’t Sara in a relationship with Ava Sharpe?
Yep. Still, she wouldn’t be Sara if she didn’t hit on Kate at some point eventually.
Yes, unfortunately. Paired with the dullest, most insignificant character the Arrowverse could come up with.
LOL I think Kate was smoother during Kara’s tattoo thing than she was tonight when Kara called Luke cute.
She probably has experience of a woman commenting on her tattoos. Thinking of a man as hot, not so much.
Why do you think Kate picked up that Kryptonite? She’s not aware of the whole yellow sun / red sun thing so as far as she knows it’s the only way she survives past the foreplay 😉
Sara’s in a committed relationship now of course. Casual making out is a thing of the non-revisitable past. I did love how the crying baby was used to undermine the Monitor’s stoicism. Not everything is about your fifth-dimensional ass, dude.
If William Jackson Harper could play a version of Luke, then Kristen Bell could play a version of Alice or Chloe.
Yeah because Sara is in a committed relationship with Ava!
Sara has a girlfriend.
Um, Kate, what are you doing with that kryptonite, ma’am?Given that this crossover’s called CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS? There’s an excellent change that at least one of the Supermans or Supergirls has gone to the bad (in fact, wasn’t “Nazi Supergirl” partially the point of an earlier crossover?).Like Bruce, Kate is just being prepared….
What the hell is the CW thinking by kicking Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford to the curb?Wait, were they fired? I was under the impression that they chose to leave…
That’s my understanding too.
I don’t know if they were fired. Their storyline is ending. Doesn’t seem like Routh wanted to go.
Thanks, I missed that statement.Yeah, that’s too bad, but hopefully there’s no bad blood, and they really will keep the door open in the future.
As I heard it, the writers just felt like their story was finished. I imagine Brandon Routh is getting more expensive, too, as one of the last original Legends.
I thought Ford and Routh made that decision, because they live in LA and have a kid they are trying to raise there.
Anyone else notice that Brandon Routh Superman brought Superman III back into his personal canon by mentioning the time he fought his evil double?
All I need now is a Nuclear Man reference.
I like how all the Paragons from people we
know from Arrowverse show are the women leading their respective shows –
Kara, Kate and Sara.
I also loved how they spent time in
this crossover to develop Kara and Kate’s friendship. I love all the
moments the Green Arrow, Flash and Supergirl has had over the many
crossovers but for multiple reasons (from living on the same planet to
Barry starting as Arrow character) Barry and Ollie have always been
closer. And Superman and Batman friendship has always been the founding
rock of Justice League. Kara and Kate developing theirs just makes it
feel so right.
I also loved that the Kevin Conroy’s evil
Batman didn’t just lead to discovering Kate is the Paragon of Courage on
Crisis crossover but also has implications for the Batwoman show. He
has shown her dark path that revenge can take her to and Kara – the
Paragon of Hope – reminded not to lose hope for Beth. Killing isn’t the
only way. Paragon of Courage can do better than that.
Also I loved all the baby Jonathan moments from the hilarious way his crying interrupted Monitor’s great speech to the way he’s been handed down until Mick got the baby sitting duty. Still, I can’t believe they shown Mick not only reading his erotic novel to a baby but also taking care of Jon while drinking.
And the moment with Brandon Routh’s Superman when he says he reminded him of his son Jason was heartbreaking (but then almost all about Earth-96 Superman was). Those little touches.
And everyone’s reaction to Ray’s doppleganger was perfect but especially Kara’s. But I couldn’t help to wonder how they noticed. Normally, it seems they all suffer from face blindness.
I also loved they got Wentworth Miller cameo even if just as a voice. His chemistry with Dominic is still great.Poor Lyla. It looks like she is the Harbinger of both Monitor and Anti-Monitor and now that the power of the former wanes she has to serve the latter.Also, since Black Lightning doesn’t get its own review – It was great to see confirmation that the show is not happening on Earth-1. I was pretty sure of it since they mentioned Supergirl but she might’ve been known from other crossovers. I just wished they told us which Earth was that.
And we got the explanation why Earth-1 Pierces are not in the crossover. ASA and Odell are evil no matter the universe. Too bad there is no one helping to stop them on any of the Earths.
I have wondered if the reason the other Arrowverse characters have been mentioned in Black Lightning is because they are all just comic book characters in his universe. That might lead to a fun reaction when he meets them. I want him to ask “but where’s Wonder Woman?” To which they all reply “Who?”
They are comic book characters but they also really exist. There is Vixen in Chicago and metas in other cities. Freeland isn’t the only place with superheroes on BL Earth.
Yeah that bit on Black Lightning made no sense. I’m pretty sure the Pierces & The ASA existing on Earth-1 contradicts a bunch of things on the Flash (Not that this has ever stopped them before)Oh and the fact that that “Earth-1″ got destroyed.
And that Earth-2 still existed. It was one of the first to go so how can the Jen’s of Earth-1 and 2 disappear at the same time and then Pierce’s Earth? I handwave it as them meeting in a timeless space so it’s not really happening at the same time just seems like it.
Or more likely the Black Lightning crew fucked up with the names.
Yeah, neither of the Earth numbers on BL made sense. That Earth-1 seemed nothing like actual Earth-1, and, yeah, was destroyed at the end. And Earth-2 was destroyed months ago on Arrow. I feel like someone didn’t get a memo.
I think BL made things needlessly confusing by tying in at the same time it was set up to be accessible to people who don’t watch any other Arrowverse at all. In the context of the story, I think “Earth 1 and Earth 2″ were just supposed to represent the two alternate worlds on offer. They’re not the same places as those designated Earth-1 and Earth-2 by more multiversally-aware organizations. But man… “real universe names have hyphens” is a thin line to draw for folks.Anyway, we saw them all get dusted together, but E-2 went out days, possibly weeks before the proper Crisis started. And E-1’s still hanging on when BL gets there to help out.
I mean all they had to do was use some numbers that weren’t already in use, same with whatever number this ones going to get.
I don’t disagree. But I think there was a conflict in the writers room between not wanting to confuse their exclusive viewers with a bunch of Arrowverse mythology and the fact that they’re already caught up in the shit. Apparently “if we put Gen on 16 and Jinn on 29, that’ll confuse people,” won.Actually, it now occurs to me that if they’d used A and B, they could have had it both ways.
Yeah that would have been better.
And they had “Jinn” on “Earth 2″ which had already been destroyed.
Earth-2 did. Earth-Freeland (for lack of a better name) did. Earth-1, with Jenn under a collar in the Pit, Anissa “cured”, and Jefferson dead, still exists. But why ARGUS and others let the ASA get away with so much on Earth-1 needs some major ‘splainin.
They don’t because it’s not the same Earth.
The Earth where Odell shot Jefferson at Christmas was identified as Earth-1. You can’t say, “we’re folding this in”, and then say, “the numbers don’t mean anything.”
If that’s Earth-1, there’s some major work to be done if Jefferson and company wind up there (assuming they don’t just reboot the whole show).
The caption did not say Earth-1 and Earth-2. The captions said “Gen: Earth 1,” and “Jinn: Earth 2.” All 3 versions of the character in the between space were annihilated. All 3 Earths were destroyed, therefore none of them can be Flash and Arrow’s Earth-1.I’m quite confident that the writers intended to convey “Jenn’s universe,” “Alternative universe #1,” and “Alternative universe #2.” They did so in the most confusing way possible given the context.
I kinda think that it’s that the Black Lighting universe doesn’t really know about the multiverse, so they would naturally start the numbering process over again. It’d be silly to discover another universe and say, “okay, THAT one is Earth 92, and ours is Earth 27.”
Of course, that holds true for the main Arrowverse, as well, considering that many, many other universes knew about the multi-verse long before Earth 1 did, yet somehow named themselves things like “Earth 47″, but best not to dwell on such things.
But shouldn’t they still name themselves Earth 1 and not the Gen’s Earth? Unless they count from 0.Also we know that Gypsy and Breacher’s people have been doing policing of extradimentional travel for years before Cisco numbered the Earths and they still went with his system.
Exactly, and someone else mentioned that since the anti-matter wave is hitting Earth 1 last, there might be some actual logical numbering system in the multi-verse rather than just starting with MY Earth being 1, which would get super confusing really quickly. Something like Earth 1 just happens to be closest to the center of whatever the same way Mercury is the closest planet to the sun.
If you want a head-canon answer for that, it’s worth noting that the anti-matter wave is spreading across dimensions, and will intersect with Earth-1 last, suggesting that it’s metaphysically either at one end, or the very center. The universe designations might actually be meaningful in some sort of “distance from center” sense.Which of course is just thinking too hard about something the writer didn’t think hard enough about, like any good comics fans. You’ll notice they also quietly dropped the limit of 53 Earths, given several in the 90s in this series, and I think Smallville was around 169.
Which of course is just thinking too hard about something the writer didn’t think hard enough about, like any good comics fans. You’ll notice they also quietly dropped the limit of 53 Earths, given several in the 90s in this series, and I think Smallville was around 169.Yeah, the answer of “that comic book writer didn’t think this shit through and/or didn’t give a damn 40+ years ago” is pretty much the correct-but-boring answer to 99% of inconsistencies.
Or how “limited to 53 Earths” would’ve kept them from having fun with year markers (Earths-89 and 66) or stuff like Smallville’s Earth 167, which was one of the producer’s birth year. (167 is for 1967).
Thank you! I was curious what number they’d give Smallville, since that debuted in 2001 and E-1 was pretty taken. 167 didn’t mean anything to me. My best guess was episode count, but that didn’t work out and I was out of ideas.Any explanation for the Titans landing on E-9? E-18 was the obvious choice, but I guess they used that for Jonah Hex because the comics version of E-18 is Wild Westy.
Not sure. I got the Smallville thing off of a wiki because it HAD to mean something and it was driving me nuts. No idea about the Titans bit since I don’t watch that one and figured it was some sort of reference I wouldn’t get.
I really chafe at the idea of an antimatter wave moving through space and yet destroying worlds that aren’t in the same dimension. It wouldn’t have taken much to say the wave was spreading from one universe to the next.
Hmmmm I’m blame the Council of Wells for this one. Earth 1 Harry got bids and started the numbering system. Giving himself 1 of course.
They’re not folding them in. The fact that they destroyed the Teen Titan/Doom Patrolverse is proof of that.
What an odd thing to say. It proves nothing of the sort. The scene from Titans has never been seen, or even hinted at. It could come up anytime that DC Universe (or any successor) decides they don’t want to make the show anymore.
Black Lightning’s scene occurred in the RUN OF THE SHOW, which is scheduled to return after the crossover. So, it will have to be addressed, somehow. Either Earth-Freeland gets folded in, or it somehow gets restored. The show isn’t getting cancelled.
It’s only odd if you somehow make the huge leap in logic that “They’re not being folded” means “The shows are being cancelled.” instead of the simpler much simpler “Everything’s going to be reset back to the way it was before and this event will be of no consequence.”Oh and I guarantee you that no matter how or when the Teen Titan & Doom Patrol shows end, it won’t be as canon fodder for something that happened on another TV Network.
Since the one certainty they have said is that there WILL be major changes, yes, it is odd to think that this whole thing will just be dismissed as if it never happened.
Although, the idea that somehow an out-of-context 10-second shot that takes place at a time that no one involved with the shows knows when will come makes them “cannon fodder” is over-stating the case completely.
I often feel like Earth-1 USA is less one country as we know and more like a lose confederation of City States. Like Holy Roman Empire. It’s like criminals could take over Star City and there was no Feds or National Guard to take it back.I suppose the same is true of Black Lightning’s Earth as foreign military forces seem to be able to easily operate within the US and there is no Army to confront them just one secret government organisation putting a forcefield over a city.
Yeah, live-action comic adaptations always seem to run into those problems. There are these giant, impossible-to-hide events taking place in American cities and only a few plucky heroes are in a position to stop it. It’s like North Korea invading St. Louis and the rest of the country going, “Meh.” or the Yakuza publicly seizing control of Atlanta and the whole US government just kinda shrugs. The Dark Knight Rises suffered from the same problem. Really, the whole of the US armed forces at their disposal and it’s, like, one SEAL team and everyone else just does roadblocks for months?
In these worlds of people in costumes and technobubble science powered by emotion this is still one of the most ridiculous parts. What government would allow something like Markovian invasion if it wasn’t completely non-functional. Always throws my suspension of disbelief to the ground.
It’s very much a “it’s superhero show, just roll with it” development. Honestly, it’d make a hell of a lot more sense if all of these superhero shows were set in Guatemala or Honduras or somewhere a crime syndicate could take over a whole city and you could reasonably think, “yeah, that tracks.”
Or that “Earth-2″ had already been destroyed weeks ago.
That being Earth-2 also does not make any sense based on what we know about it.
According to Guggenheim Jason is still alive.
That’s nice. At least he didn’t lost everyone.
Well, the Lyla take over is straight from the comic, so it is not a surprise to me. it will be interesting to see if it leads to the same thing that happened in the comic.
My personal favorite reaction to Routh’s Clark Kent was Sara’s “Damn, Ray, when did you get JACKED?” or something to that effect.
That was Kara’s reaction but I agree! One of my faves…although a bit odd since Ray Palmer was standing just a few feet away…but I’ll just assume RouthMan was the first in her line of sight and leave it at that.
Yup, you’re right. It was just such a Sara line I mentally switched it. (And it was, “Woah, Ray, you are looking jacked.”, for the record.)
Kara’s*
My second favorite was Lois (who was clearly cast at least in-part for her resemblance to Margot Kidder) got all mooney-eyed and hot-and-bothered for Routh version of Kal-El while her husband stood behind her and got a little jealous. “Umm, Lois?”
Barry should be one as well. As for the other 2 (assuming this paragon thing is not just a Monitor long con), I’d go with Jay Garrick and Black Lightning.
There are still 3 Paragons missing and there are 3 more shows that are not represented so I’m convinced that it’ll be like Ollie, Barry and Jeff. The big problem will be that resurrected Ollie will turn bad so one Paragon will be missing and the big turning will be his friends and family bringing him back to the side of good. Or something like that.
I loved the revelation about Kate being the paragon of courage and how blown away everyone was by it. I really buy the way it was set it up, it being not about her power set or experience but her inner qualities and determination, which we have seen in abundance
I think for all of them it’s that inner quality but the others have been recognised for theirs for a long time so it was no surprise to them (even if Kara felt hers was dimmed at the moment). But Kate is new to this and still has a lot of doubts about her role so it was nice to have her be validated as a hero like that. Especially now when she’s in a really dark place.
I would like to know a bit more of what it means that Sara is the paragon of destiny. Ray just casually went, of course, she is the captain of a time ship! But I think it means something obviously deeper than that, I just would like it spelled out a bit better
I’m sure it will play a big role in the final episode of the crossover. The Legends one 🙂
It stands out so weirdly among the other four mentioned, too. Like, the great virtues of truth, hope, courage and…destiny? What? I would’ve liked something like tenacity/perseverance/determination to represent all the shit she’s been through, but I suspect they’re saving that for Oliver (if he is indeed a paragon).
I could like “destiny” for Sara but they need to explain it better. Like to me the key thing in her heroic ascension was stepping up to embrace being captain and team leader when the team needed her to do that. So she had this inner willingness to accept that she had a special destiny and it required her to be more than she thought she could be in order to achieve that for the greater good.
Superman Returns used the John Williams themes, so it makes sense that the Routh Superman would be scored with John Williams’s themes. It does give his Superman an unfair advantage, though.
It’s a ballsy move to make the Superman in the crossover who is most important to saving the multiverse a different Superman than the one we’ve been following for a few seasons now. But given all of the time Routh has spent serving in the trenches as Ray Palmer first on “Arrow” and later on “Legends”, and especially given that he’s being written out of “Legends” at some point this season, it’s a wonderful show of respect by the writers to give him this second chance for his iteration of Superman to really shine.I love that all three Clark Kents have found a way to have children they cherish with their Lois Lanes. The Routh Superman has Jason with the now-deceased Bosworth Lois. The Welling Superman has a couple daughters with the Durance Lois. And the Hoechlin Superman has baby Jonathan with the Tulloch Lois.
If I recall right, Kingdom Come ended with Clark and Diana hooking up and expecting a baby. Jason was a Greek hero, so I’m thinking Lois wasn’t the mother of that Superman’s child.
Definitely true in Kingdom Come comics.
But while Earth-96 Superman borrows the look of Kingdom Come Superman, and has the same catastrophic event in his backstory, that’s pretty much where the similarities end.
Earth-96 is pretty clearly the Superman Returns Earth, where most of the events from the Christopher Reeve movies can also be taken as canon. In Superman Returns, Superman had a five-year-old with Lois named Jason.
I think the Kingdom Come similarities for Earth-96 Superman ends with the Daily Planet attack and the symbol. Otherwise it just won’t make too much sense. It’s better this way.
..and the distinguished grey streaks!
… wow. I really blanked on that movie, holy crap. Sorry.
So 96 started as Reeves superman , became Super man returns , and now pulled in parts of Kingdom Come and a bit of Injustice.Anyone know the Earth 75 reference though? 77 would be TV Wonderwoman right?, but not sure about 75?
Where’s the Injustice reference?
The Joker killing Lois .
The Joker kills Lois in a gas attack on the Daily Planet in Kingdom Come.
Bugger! You’re right, I’d forgotten that …doh!
Now that you mention it. Routh’s Superman was gone for the first five years of Jason’s life. So why would baby Jonathan remind him of a kid he never saw as a baby?
Routh!Superman was confirmed by the writers to be Returns!Superman.
Jason is Superman & Lois’ son in Superman Returns.
Not ballsy at all, really. The show is Supergirl, and its own Superman was blatantly used as a tool to meta-elevate Kara to the position of “most important hero ever.”Like, it wasn’t subtext. It was *text.*And, okay, well, turns out that for Crisis she’s only *one of seven* of the most important heroes ever. Boo hoo.
This was a bit better than yesterdays episode, it was nice to see all the cameos and “cameos” for the ones who already on one of these shows. I don’t get this Paragon gimmick though since like everything so far related to Crisis it just feels like gibberish. I would have thought that was a Lantern Corps intro but I guess not.
So has anyone noticed they haven’t referenced the DCEU movies in anyway and I don’t think they ever will. I would assume that’s a directive from on high but still, Black Sheep of the family, them and Shaq as Steel.Black Lighting Bonus Corner Because They’re Not Doing Reviews Here So Avert Your Eyes If You Haven’t Watched It Corner:
So that was an interesting way to show off Jenn’s inner turmoil and also somehow a better build for Crisis than any of the other shows have done.
I’ve never watched “Batman v Superman”, but I think that there’s kind of an offhand way that it’s referenced. Conroy Batman says something like,“The world only makes sense if you force it to,” which I believe is a quote from “Batman v Superman”. But that quote is an adaption from “Batman: Return of the Dark Knight”. It could be that the show is either referencing the movie or the source material.
It’s probably Dark Knight Returns reference rather than a BvS one.
Most people who hated BvS definitely never read TDKR, so I’m not surprised.
The rest of us read and loved DKR, and were furious at Snyder’s laughable attempts to use its signifiers to distract from his fundamental mishandling of both Bats and Clark.
Eh, it definitely wasn’t the Batman meets Superman movie I wanted, and I was disappointed at first, but it was still a good movie and I don’t see any mishandling. Just a different take than I would’ve liked seeing, but one I greatly appreciate nonetheless.Fanboys overreact a lot.
Calm down, son. We’re all fanboys here.
Not really, at least I try my best not to be toxic to others like fanboys are. Snarky, maybe.Again, we’ve had this discussion before. And you chose to pretend toxic fanboys don’t exist as part of fandom. I could respect that, but let’s not pretend that’s not problematic.
I try my best not to be toxic to others like fanboys You people just sound ridiculousWell, you could always try a little harder.
Saying fanboys are ridiculous is toxic now? Starting to sound like a certain someone in the White House there, son.
Ah, so first I’m ridiculous for pointing out the references to BvS, then I’m a toxic fanboy for some imagined slight, and now I’m suddenly Donald Trump just because I called for some decorum in this discussion about superheroes. That makes sense.
Yes, you were ridiculous for seeing things that aren’t there because of your intent dislike for a movie. Yes, you’re a toxic fanboy because you keep bringing up the thing you dislike every time it’s remotely related. Yes, you’re kind of like Donald Trump when your retaliation to someone calling out “toxic fanboys” is “You’re the one who’s toxic for calling out toxic people!”.Have some degree of self-awareness, at least.
seeing things that aren’t thereOther people saw it too. Maybe because we’re discussing an episode with several references to other DC adaptations. Or maybe it’s a “folie a deux”. because you keep bringing upI brought it up once, again like a few others on this comment section, before you response because I felt there were some connections between the movie and this tv episode. you’re kind of like Donald Trump when your retaliation I made a response, not a declaration of war. Don’t take these things so seriously, kid. It’s just a silly superhero film.
Double post. Kinja be Kinja.
I enjoy that “fanboy” is now being used as an insult, by SnyderBronies.They’ve even ceded the comics-textual high ground, haha – they’re now, ironically enough, on the same footing as TLJ-truthers, bitching about how “the masses” don’t properly appreciate the genius of a director-for-hire’s interpretation of characters he played no role in creating (even as people who helped define the original iterations of said characters refute them).
I love the irony of you dismissing Snyder as a director for hire who doesn’t understand the characters while defending Miller, a writer who didn’t create Batman and whose take on DC characters is far more extreme and insulting than most anything Snyder did.I also love the “TLJ truthers” comment as if that movie’s detractors haven’t already been proven to be a vocal minority of racist, sexist nostalgia-obsessed neanderthals who clearly never grew the hell up.
Also, his alien hating attitude definitely bears a resemblance to the Sad Affleck version of Batman.
“If there’s only a 1% chance…”
If only that version of Superman had said “Save Martha”, he could have saved himself and stopped Bruce from being a mass murderer.That Superman probably did something silly and unrealistic, like refer to his mother as “mom” or something instead of using her first name.
The ongoing gulf between Arrowvers and DCEU has me wondering how the higher-ups at Warner Bros feel about the ongoing success of Arrowverse…
I wonder if the Arrowverse success is also partly thanks to it being basically the only thing we’ve got. Putting aside the failures of the DCEU, it’s sporadic output also makes it hard to root for it.Meanwhile, Arrowverse had a lot of rough seasons(some might even say there’s more bad seasons than good) but they keep adding characters and shows and events, and good or bad they’re at least putting out stuff.
I doubt they give much thought to it. Crisis is pulling in record numbers, but it’s still less than 2 million viewers a night. Suicide Squad did $746 million dollars, and was a failure.They don’t say how many actual tickets sold that was, but if we’re generous, and say $15 a ticket, that’s still almost 50 million people going to see Suicide Squad.And the <2million watching Crisis don’t have a cost of entry going direct into WB’s pockets.
Except they clearly do. What with their constant cracking down on what characters can and cannot be used. Squashing the Harley Quinn plotline Arrow was planning for. Making them kill off Amanda Waller and Deadshot. Pulling back on Deathstroke. All of this behavior leaves little doubt as to whether or not Warner Bros is okay with them using someone like Wonder Woman. Someone somewhere clearly does have strong feelings about Arrowverse vs. DCEU.
I feel like ironically enough the DCEU and the Arrowverse have a much healthier relationship than the MCU and their TV offerings so far. The MCU TV stuff has to happen in the same universe as the movies but they’ve kept a firewall between them, making the MCU TV stuff necessarily small in scope and feeling diminished by the relationship.DC, by contrast, just lets lets of its instances be their own thing, and thus they can do multi-universe-changing stuff like this crossover. And it lets them play around more and dream bigger, since they don’t always have to think about how it all fits together. The Arrowverse is separate from the swearing grittiness of Titans (2-second cameo last episode notwithstanding), which in turn managed to have a backdoor pilot for Doom Patrol that isn’t even quite in continuity with Doom Patrol, the new Harley Quinn animated series and many other such shows have their own continuities, the DC animated movies are sometimes in continuity with eachother and sometimes not, the DC live action movies have their own continuity for whatever that’s worth (I think Shazam was the best of them and it had very very little if anything to do with the rest). DC seems to be content to run multiple parallel continuities at once, and more power to ‘em. They aren’t gonna beat the MCU’s Disney money straight on anyways! Better, then, to play it looser and more varied.
They better be careful with that. Too many continuities leads to confusion which leads to…CRISIS!
The way Marvel is effectively abandoning all of its pre-Disney+ TV shows says a lot. It’s also infuriating and depressing.
I am really steamed about “Daredevil” and “Jessica Jones”, who Disney is not even running nor announced to be running on Disney. It is like they took them from Netflix just to be jerks
That is only true now. I think they only allowed the crisis story once they decided that the “Superman” movies were dead for the time being and also allowed the CW to do a new Superman show, set for next year.Before the failure of the movies, they were very, very difficult in allowing any of their movie properties on the CW. That included Superman in season one, just now allowing Lex Luthor this year, and others. I think they still will not allow Wonder Woman (movie coming out) Harley Quinn (Same) and the Green Lantern (no idea why not)
This season of Black Lightning hasn’t been available in Canada yet, did they say what Earth the series takes place on? I figured if you squinted it could be Supergirl’s Earth 38 but I’ve got zero actual evidence.
They haven’t said other than it’s not one of the ones that has been featured elsewhere.
Yeah, the BL team did a bang-up job merging with Crisis. Two thumbs up from me. They took a tried-and-true TV episode formula, dropped it into exactly the perfect context, and did it well. And all props to the actor that plays Jen/Gen/whatever her name actually is on the core BL Earth. She’s been doing fine with what they’ve given her, but when she got her most central and standout episode yet, she brought it.I suppose you can never know how much of it to credit to the writers and the director, but her first little speech to her sister (via the video) managed to walk that great tightrope between the classic comic-book “grappling with big ideas” stuff, and dialogue that sounded like it could actually come from a smart teenage stoner. I don’t pretend I can judge the “real life blackness” of any of it, but I’ve seen that shit done poorly in both comics and adaptations a million times. This wasn’t done poorly!My one criticism is that maybe J/G/Whatever was a BIT too quick to get to the parallel worlds answer. It also would’ve been cooler if the mom, the straight-up legit scientist of the bunch, had been the one to drop the “multiple universes” thing before anybody else, and literally everybody else (including Gamby) was a little taken aback that she’d suggest something like that.So, nitpicks. Overall, really good.
It also would’ve been cooler if the mom, the straight-up legit scientist
of the bunch, had been the one to drop the “multiple universes” thing
before anybody else
She’s a medical doctor, though. She wouldn’t have reason to come up with the “multiple universes” explanation any more than any other random character.
Jen reads comic books. She gets it.
Jen, totally. She’s the genre savvy one.
As somebody who doesn’t watch the shows ever, pretty much all the multiverse-exposition sounds like gibberish to me. The multiverse threat is a good excuse to get heroes together and see alternate versions, but they spend far too much time talking about the logistics of it.
I really enjoyed this episode more than part 1. I see that they are forcing Batwoman on us. I like Batwoman but if feels they are trying to make a point why the show exist. – a bit too much.Loved Lenord Snart being the voice (Gideon) the Wavewider’s Earth 89. Was that Wentworth Miller voicing it? Thought he was done with the Arrowverse.
Mick always great. The Big teddy bear we all know he is. I.e. with baby Jonathon. I miss my Legends. Mick : “You had me at beer” Paragon of Destiny – Sara Lance: This makes me think this will be connected to season 5. Powers ???
“Life only makes sense if you force it to.” right out of Batman V. Superman. And we get to see where that path leads.
That’s from Dark Knight Returns.
You’re right.
so was that whole “Life taught me a different lesson…” speech.in 5 minutes, they out-snyder Snyder
That was part of the same speech.
No love for “A little souvenir from the old home town” nodding to Lex in the first Superman movie? Not just a nice touch but a good guide for where this Bruce ended up. In fact… now that I think about it this Bruce has a lot of Lex from Gotham City Garage about him. Slightly less nuts but could easily see him make many of the same choices.
Part 2 was fun, though the change in pace was jarring. After the urgent evac of part 1, all of a sudden the heroes have time to go search for Paragons and partake in resurrection quests. I assume the threat of worlds ending is still ever-present, but you don’t really feel it as much in Hour 2. Small but notable trims in the narrative, such as how Iris and Constantine get onboard the Waverider, speak to just how jam-packed these episodes are that standard establishing scenes are shaved off. I liked the Tom Welling scene, though I’m sure him de-powered will disappoint some. Given his reluctance to come back, this felt more like a statement from Tom than anything else. It was really for the fans though, you could’ve cut the whole sequence and lost nothing of the Luthor subplot. SuperRouth lived up to the hype, Kevin Conroy was…surreal….in the sense that we finally got him as a live-action Bruce Wayne, and he turns out to be a bitter psycho. I wouldn’t mind seeing Kevin back as a more traditional Bruce. And…I totally lost a bet with myself that the Monitor we’ve been seeing is secretly the Anti-Monitor in disguise, because things like retrieving the Book of Destiny seem awfully convenient. But nope, we’ve got the real Anti-Monitor now. Hoping tomorrow’s cliffhanger is epic.
Perhaps the Anti-Monitor is secretly the Monitor in disguise.
The big reveal at the end of Legends next month is going to be that the real Monitor was the friends we made along the way.
Welling’s scene was worth it simply for Lex’s disbelief that Clark Kent could be Superman.
If that Lex doesn’t connect the dots that his Clark is his Superman with all the evidence, man.
Lex not knowing his Superman is Clark even though somehow he knows Kara is Supergirl was jarring. To me, it doesn’t make sense.
yeah so about that? Is public knowledge that Clark KENT and Kara DANVERS are cousins? Legally they wouldn’t be. I mean their friend circle knows but…how do they explain how their cousins anyway?
I also greatly enjoyed the ease with which Clark physically rebuffed Lex’s attempt to hit him.
Thank you! I’ve been waiting to see that mentioned. It was perfect. I wonder how many Clark Kents it would have taken for the penny to drop.
I wish the crossover had started at this pace. I’ve been watching all of the build-up to the Crisis, I reread the book a couple weeks ago, and I still thought part 1 went way too fast.
Yeah now I don’t watch any of these shows on a regular basis, but I thought this episode was so much better than episode 1. Also I know I should suspend my disbelief a little more but the “Green Arrow saved a billion people” plot point really falls flat for me and I truly hate it.
Yeah getting Conroy as E1 Bruce would be great.
Welling’s scene isn’t pure fan service even – it serves a plot point …. albeit to get to more fan service. The Depowered Clark is “not fun” for Lex to kill/erase (think about how difficult it would be for Cryer’s Lex to imagine giving up that much power willingly). This is directly what leads Lex to decide on alternate “fun” options for doing away with Superman, especially the inspiration to have Superman kill Superman to give us that scene.
I also loved SuperRouth’s reference to that weird Superman III scene where he fights his evil self.
That was seriously one of the best hours of Arrowverse TV I’ve seen in years. Using Kevin Conroy’s voice to provide a deconstruction of Frank Miller’s Batman was a seriously inspired touch.
I’ll probably watch it again before Pt 3, just cause it was so wonderfully comic booky
Miller’s Batman never killed.
It’s not hard to read the version we saw tonight as an endpoint for that reasoning, given the particular lines used during the confrontation with Kate.
Yeah, it seemed like it was taking Miller’s Objectivist Batman to it’s logical extension.
.
See, it wasn’t so hard to be logical instead of proudly showing your “I hate BvS so let’s make fun of it” hard-on.You’re making progress.
I try not to be like other toxic fanboys “I hate BvS so let’s make fun of it” hard-on.You’re making progress.Well, that makes one of us. If you’re going to respond to my posts, at least try to stay on topic.
See? Deflecting from being called out on.Lamentable, but unsurprising.Well, I tried. You seem like you really like these stuff, if one ignores the passive aggressive hostility you tend to exhibit towards… certain things. We could’ve had fun discussing these stuff, if only you could be more mature.But it is what it is. No hard feelings.
See? Deflecting from being called out on.Lamentable, but unsurprising.Well, I tried. You seem like you really like these stuff, if one ignores the passive aggressive hostility you tend to exhibit towards… certain things. We could’ve had fun discussing these stuff, if only you could be more mature.But it is what it is. No hard feelings.
Another double, eh? Don’t worry, you’ll get the hang of this. See? Deflecting from being called out on.I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. Considering how many people you might have run into on this channel (and others) who have similar viewpoints, you could just be mistaking me for someone else.And you still can’t stay on topic.
In the actual comic, sure. But his Batman eventually going down that path was an inevitability. If you can buy that Superman could actually become a government stooge. Then why can’t you buy that Batman would one day accidentally go too far whilst torturing someone for information, then discover the death didn’t actually bother him like he thought it would. Like he said in this episode, “it starts with one kill and then another…….”.
He literally twisted the Joker’s neck to the point of killing him…and stopped.Because, unlike Zack Snyder, Frank Miller knows that Batman doesn’t kill – Bats nearly dies in Year One trying to save a criminal.Anyway, since “Strikes Again” never happened, he retired after faking his death, allowing Carrie and the Sons of Batman to defend Gotham in his stead.
That’s why I said he “accidentally goes too far”. Miller’s Batman is a monster. The line between murdering someone and brutally torturing them is thin. At a certain point someone WILL die, it’s not a question of “if”, it’s a matter of “when”. The reason why people like Snyder and now CW Crisis portray Miller’s Batman as a killer is because it’s insanely naive to think he wouldn’t eventually give in. That’s what happens when you write a super grimdark character. Even by Miller’s own writing in DKR, Batman was trying to KILL Superman. He wasn’t trying to stop him, or pacify him, but actually kill him. You can’t have it both ways, accept that Batman would try to legitimately kill Superman, but throw up your arms when he does eventually kill his own villains.
The issue with your argument, of course, is that Batman explicitly wasn’t “trying to kill Superman.”He wanted to rough him up a bit, but his primary goal in that confrontation was to fake his own death, in order to get Clark off his back…and he accomplished that goal handily.Seriously…when was the last time you read DKR? Miller hasn’t written a good comic in over 25 years, but Year One and DKR absolutely hold up.
It honestly took me like 2 hours to watch this ep because I just had to keep rewinding it. Pleasantly surprised how much they gave Conroy to do, and I think I watched every scene at least twice, once with my eyes closed and once watching the voice come out of his face. Honestly not sure how i even feel about it. It was kind of alarming how much it distracted me from the actual words/plot.
This episode just continues the heart-attack inducing thrill ride and I am excited to see it continue.Side note: is anyone reviewing this week’s Black Lightning? I have to say as much as this was a great episode of the main-event issues of Crisis, BL did something I didn’t expect, making a very emotional episode that served as both a large character exploration central to Jenn’s development and as a tie-in to the main Crisis story.
I’m still kinda horked that the Paragon of *Truth* isn’t a Wonder Woman. I mean, duh.
I’m just holding out hope we even get to see Wonder Woman at all.*cross fingers for Lynda Carter*
She still has a viable movie franchise, so WB has probably banned her from appearing in the Arrowverse so as to not confused audiences.
Such a dumb and inconsistent rule of theirs, but apparently a thing, so I wouldn’t be surprised.
Though there was a Batwoman episode where Kate made a joke about dressing up as Wonder Woman, implying that she exists (either as a publicly known hero, or as a fictional character) on Earth-1. And since we know from Legends that Themyscira exists . . .
We already got Linda Carter, two years back on “Supergirl,” and she still can’t act.
Okay, sure she has the lasso, but Superman does stand for Truth, Justice, etc so it works.
True – but she could qualify for wisdom or equality too?
Look, I get that he really, really doesn’t want to wear the suit, but they should have thrown all of the money at Welling so we could have gotten three Supermen, damn it.
I thought someone from the shows said there’s actually a scene with the three of them. Unless Welling appears in another episode, but I doubt it with the way the scene played out here.
I mean, the end of the scene DOES heavily imply that he is considering joining them.
The way Guggenheim talked about it, it feels like that’s it, though. And someone else said they apparently only had Welling film for one day.
I kind of don’t think they do; I heard the same rumor, but Welling is notorious for not wanting to wear the suit, and for as small as Rosenbaum said his part (and offer) was, I can see this being he and Durance’s only appearance in the show.
I really want to hear the story of how that Lex eventually becomes President and Clark is okay enough with it that he just chills on the farm. Though of any Clark and Lex I’ve personally ever seen I buy it from them the most.I will say that a powerless Clark brushing off a Lex from a different dimension was certainly a highlight.
Didn’t the flash-forward at the end of the Smallville series finale have a news headline saying that Lex was president?
Maybe, it’s been awhile.
Confirmed.
Routh said in an interview with People (I think – it was yesterday) that he did not film any scenes with Welling.
I mean, it’s probably obvious after two hours of Crisis, but they didn’t have a lot of money to work with – particularly with getting guest stars to appear. And they were probably never going to be able to pay him more than he got paid for the last episode of Smallville, when the stakes were never higher and he still refused.
Yea, I was being a touch facetious; he probably agreed to appear specifically under the condition that he not wear the suit.
Hey, in theory there probably is an amount of money too large for him to say no to appearing in the suit. Everyone has a price; it’s just a matter of someone being willing to pay it.
It WAS pretty on brand for that version of Superman to not only not wear the suit but plain give up his powers to have a nice life. I would assume Smallville Earth still has some form of a Justice League or whatever with Green Arrow and Cyborg and Aquaman and whatever else is considered “canon” from the spin-off comics.
But, it keeps to the spirit of the Smallville show that it was never about the suit. It was about Clark. I like it that he did not wear it.
No mention of alternate-Mick’s AI being Snart? That was a fun sorta-cameo.
The Black Lightning part of this Crisis Crossover was very interesting, showing us the Earth-1 and Earth-2 versions of Freeland. Then ‘our’ Freeland gets taken out by the Anti-Matter wave, but Black Lightning himself is teleported out by a Harbinger flash right at the last second.
Only downside to this episode, other than it being a solidly “middle” episode with no real beginning or end, was that it cut out so many of the previous episode’s characters: Alex, Brainy, J’onn and Pariah just aren’t there, which is especially strange on the part of Pariah.
Apparently none of the people who review the Arrowverse shows on here watch the other shows in the ‘verse, so Alani has likely never seen Legends.
To be fair, I’m a huge fan of Legends, and it took me a bit of time to realize that the AI was Snart. It’s been a few years since he was on Legends, and voice modulation can make it hard to recognize voices.
Counterpoint, the first time he spoke in the Arrowverse (I’m fairly certain it was on The Flash, though maybe it was Arrow?) I immediately went “oh hey! It’s that guy!” The actor has a pretty distinctive voice, and he really plays it up and adds a particular flavour of ham in his Arrowverse delivery.
Ehh, it took me a couple sentences to clock onto who the voice was as well.
I doubt I would’ve picked up on it if the voiced hadn’t identified itself as “Leonard.”
I’m not sure that was actual E1 and E2, just the shorthand BL used to get the point across.
I know we’re probably just expected to assume the E-38 heroes got off just fine, especially since Kara is acting gloomy but not completely destroyed (which she likely would be if, say, Alex was dead) but would it have killed them to just add a line about how the E-38 heroes are helping the E-38 refugees settle in or something? It’s a perfectly reasonable excuse to get them out of the way and we’re not left wondering why Kara doesn’t mention her friends and family at all.
– OK, if Dominic Purcell DOES leave Legends of Tomorrow, I want him to appear on the Superman spinoff as Johnathan’s wacky Uncle Rory. – Having Snart as an alternate Waverider AI is a really clever way to bring him back. Love it.- Love Lex’s reaction to Kate. – Barry bringing up the Lazarus Pits to bring back Oliver was a really nice continuity nod.- OK, Smallville!Clark giving up his powers was slightly irritating, but him throwing away the Kryptonite and punching Lex was great. Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show?- The scene between Kate and Bruce was so goddamn good.- The makeup is very, very subtle, but it does work in making KC!Superman look older than Ray Palmer. – The Superman vs. Superman battle was pretty freaking cool.- YES! Red heat vision! FINALLY!- So….Berlanti said that KC!Superman was the same as Returns!Superman, but given this episode, it honestly feels more like Injustice!Superman if he never went off the deep end. – Obviously, it was done so that Sara and Mia could talk, but from a logical standpoint, wouldn’t it have been better to have Barry do the cleanup of the Lazarus Pit?- I still find it really, really weird that Sara doesn’t seem at all concerned that Mia is out of time or about all the changes Team Arrow did to the timeline. – Evil!Batman is not something I thought I wanted, but man, Conroy sells it so, so well.- I knew they’d make Kate one of the Paragons, but I was really, really hoping we’d still get Will Friedle appear as Terry McGinnis. – OK, Anti-Monitor looks pretty freaking cool. EDIT: Yea, Batwoman’s cast got a bit short-changed, but Supergirl’s cast still tops it since we STILL don’t have any confirmation that Alex and Lena are still alive and J’onn & Brainy are MIA.
– So….Berlanti said that KC!Superman was the same as Returns!Superman, but given this episode, it honestly feels more like Injustice!Superman if he never went off the deep end.Injustice Superman itself feels like KC Superman if he went bad, but that’s due to the simple premise of Lois dying, which even BvS played with for a bit.Routh’s Superman is basically just Reeves/Returns Superman, with the Daily Planet attack from Kingdom Come and the symbol, but not much else. An actual Kingdom Come Superman would be really different in outlook and personal life.
Exactly. The Kingdom Come style shield just confused things. Routh is the same Superman that he and Christopher Reeve played in the movies, hence the movie theme music and his reference to “going nuts and fighting myself” from Superman III.
The only difference is this Clark has a son to focus on.
As mentioned above, I believe gold kryptonite causes the power loss.
Given Kara mentioned her mother tonight, I think we can assume Alex/Lena/J’onn/Brainy made it (we at least saw them NEAR the escape route). Not so sure about Eliza though.
Eliza was confirmed dead in Part 1.
oh shit! makes sense but still sad.
You’re thinking of Kara’s OTHER mother. Eliza wasn’t confirmed dead or alive.
Since when? I remember Kara talking about her mother’s death, but I took that to mean her biological mother, who we’d seen stranded on a disintegrating planet earlier in the episode.
That was Alura.
Kara was talking about Alura
Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers?You kids today — you never heard of Gold Kryptonite?
I like the implication that Snart got turned into the ship AI after he died, possibly because Mick-74 missed him, especially since he apparently took the unused Waverider for himself.
– OK, Smallville!Clark giving up his powers was slightly irritating, but him throwing away the Kryptonite and punching Lex was great. Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show?He gives up his powers or has them taken away for extended stretches at least three different times in the ten seasons of Smallville. Usually it had something to do with the AI version of his dad from the Fortress of Solitude taking them away as punishment, or teaching a lesson or something. Once I think a witch took them away? Season three was bonkers.
Season Three was awesome. That’s the Lex in an asylum season, and Clark on red k running away to metropolis, among many many other highlights. Season Four was the bonkers one with witches. Tho it did give us 3 of the series’ best hours – Clark and Lionel body swap, death of the teleporting girl who started as a psycho stalker in season three but in the end proved how much she truly loved and cared for Clark, and of course the awesome finale that ended with Clark throwing the crystal that would form the Fortress Of Solitude. Damn, now I really wanna go back and watch Smallville after writing about all that nostalgia…
You’re absolutely right. I mixed up my seasons. And you’re also right about those great season three episodes. That kind of brings us back to the present as Alica(teleporting girl) was played by Sarah Carter who played Cicada II on this season of the Flash.
Just remember all the time in caves in s2&3 & how grating Lana got after season 1 & you should ve right.
KCSuperman is an extension of Superman I-III & Returns. He referenced going crazy and fighting himself and his son Jason. Then the attack by a freak from Gotham.
It could go either way, but Conroy is either Murderverse Batman or a DRK Batman who “won.” Could also be Titans Tomorrow Batman before Tim comes for him.
Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show?Just a thing in general, the boy scout has given up his powers countless times in Movies, TV, and Comics.
I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show?Let’s just say you don’t go ten seasons without revisiting a few wells.
>>>Let’s just say you don’t go ten seasons without revisiting a few wells.<<
Oh, there were SO MANY things in Smallville that could take Clark’s powers away (and/or give his powers to other people). After 10 seasons, the number of convoluted plot devices that show built up was insane.
I so wanted at least a Batman Beyond reference!
– OK, Smallville!Clark giving up his powers was slightly irritating, but him throwing away the Kryptonite and punching Lex was great. Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show? So, actually it was quite common for the Smallville version of Clark Kent to lose his powers: https://smallville.fandom.com/wiki/Clark_Kent%27s_power_loss
“The makeup is very, very subtle, but it does work in making KC!Superman look older than Ray Palmer.”“Look” being the key word. I’d say they are the same age, but fatherhood definitely can make one look older.
“Obviously, it was done so that Sara and Mia could talk, but from a logical standpoint, wouldn’t it have been better to have Barry do the cleanup of the Lazarus Pit?”Logic? Are you new to the Arrowverse? Ha… he said “logic”… pffft.
In regards to losing powers, they could also use the Fortress as a means like in Superman II
Also, I haven’t watched much Smallville, but how exactly CAN Clark just “give up” his powers? Is that a thing in his show?
It’s not totally unprecedented – as mentioned elsewhere gold kryptonite – also Superman 2.
Since no one explained it, the Clark on Smallville was never keen on being superman. He certainly had the hero complex of every other superman, but he also just wanted to live a normal life. There were a few times on the show where he had been stripped of his powers for one reason or another. He liked not having the responsibilities of being the earths savior.As for the removal of his powers, it’s likely he was wearing something with blue kryptonite. Some people said his watch had a blue face. He had met a kryptonian living on earth who had done the same thing and had a kid. It’s unlikely he used gold kryptonite as that permanently removes his powers. Also, his timeline is ahead so he had been superman for sometime and that’s excluding his time as the Blur. This is a superman that likely is in his early 40s. As a smallville fan, the story doesn’t bother me.
Is that Reverse Flash’s voice that Lyla heard just before she woke up? They made it more distinct than the others.
You know, maybe I’m being lenient because I generally expect so little from these shows, effects-wise, but I think that Superman v. Superman fight looked pretty darn good.
Yeah, I’m a sucker for the use of the big Daily Planet statue.
-Sara promised the crew they’d never have to take part in another crossover.-I love all the Kate/Kara time we got, from Kate immediately hating Lex Luthor based on Kara’s reaction to the whole Kevin Conroy part to their talks.-Ooh, Kara’s going to rebel and try to reconstruct her universe. That’s exciting.-REBECCA SILVER EXISTS IN EVERY UNIVERSE!-On a sadder note, Mick living in the Snart!Waverider reminded me of Shaw taking POI calls from the Root!Machine.-Enjoyed watching Lois eat the Clark eye candy in every universe.
If I were the Monitor, just having had a formulaic MacGuffin hunt dropped into my lap as The Crisis is already underway – and one riddled with emotional fucking woo-woo to boot – I think I’d be giving some very, *very* serious thought to the idea that I’m a fictional character trapped in the hell of a writing team’s hackneyed design.Seriously. I know they’ve got source material they’re drawing from, but this was laughable. Any suspension of disbelief I had vanished. The Monitor went from infuriating-but-credible to a total joke; he was delivering his lines about Kara and Sara and eventually (especially) Kate like an unholy cross between The Magical Negro and The Wizard of Fucking Oz. The inherent (and perhaps inevitable) contradiction between his omnipotence and his ignorance was also exacerbated like a mothefucker. WHO IN THE FUCK is leaving breadcrumbs and prophecies for a being as powerful as the Monitor, and why, like all of the other annoyingly-omnipotent-but-absent Abrahamic-inspired gods before them, are they being so fucking oblique and annoying about it?I honestly think the only way they could salvage this train wreck of an episode would be by having one of the January episodes do a reveal worthy of Lev Grossman (author of The Magicians book series, for those who don’t know,) that this entire Crisis is the celestial equivalent of two brothers having a pretend-session-that-might-be-turning-into-a-real-fight in their playroom, while their parents in the next room have made the controversial parenting decision to mostly let it play out, hoping that some of the teachable moments they’ve already had with their kids in the past have sunk in enough to push things in a healthier direction.THAT would retroactively make this episode somewhat acceptable. Otherwise, fuck dude, I think this was my limit. I am no longer on board the train. Now it’s either watching the crash from a distance or it’s nothing at all.
Ah Bruce, they did ya dirty.What is with these shows uplifting the female superheroes by undercutting the male ones? Bruce can’t just be a broken wreck of a man who passes the torch onto Kate, he has to be a murderous psychopath who actively tries to hinder her efforts to not have reality destroyed. We can’t see Kara protect the tower with all her strength, we have to make a point of Clark failing before she does, and then get ribbed about it afterwards.Also, the monitor is a goddamn dick. How in the actual fuck did Luthor killing a bunch of Supermen help the team find the Paragon version in any way?! They were going from Earth to Earth, checking out each one, and Luthor being on his murder spree didn’t change that tactic in the slightest.
What is with these shows uplifting the female superheroes by undercutting the male ones?That’s…certainly one way of looking at it.
Or, and this is radical I know, maybe it’s worth giving us different versions of the overplayed, overexposed male characters to keep things interesting? As much as I’m a huge fan of Conroy’s Bat and would love to see him given a full-on live action show having him give a pep talk to Kate would have been the obvious and, frankly, dull route. This take was something new (after nearly three decades playing the role!) and is a lovely extension of the darker takes on Bruce. Didn’t do him dirty at all, if anything made him more relevant and fundamental to Batwoman going forward. She, after all, already has a positive Bruce to be inspired by, now she’s got the flipside of the coin.As for Supes dropping first a) it makes sense as he’d been on Argo for a year or so with no powers so Kara would have more reserves and b) even without that why is it undercutting him for her to last a few seconds longer? Maybe, just maybe, it’s more the insecurity of the viewer on display?
Plus, Kara having more raw strength than Clark is an idea even the comics have played around with.
And the reasons they came up with usually make sense (uh… by comic standards I mean). Unfortunately they’re normally rolled back or hand-waved when a different editorial staff come in but what can you do? If I’m being honest one of the reasons I enjoy the CW Kara / Kal relationship is Kal seems far more relaxed (and, dare I say, mature) about not automatically being top of the tree in everything all the time than some fans are. Hell from his point of view thanks to Kara being awesome he got to put the cape in storage long enough to have a family and reconnect with his heritage.
That’s a really good point. Hoechlin’s lack of ego is a big part of his appeal.
Plus we can still get Conroy as E1 Bruce later.
Ok ,the Mointor was always a manipulative asshole. Nothing he’s done here he wouldn’t have done in the original story. The Monitor has a goal, save reality, and if he has to throw few supermen one the pile early he’ll do it. They’d be destroyed by the antimatter wave anyways. And the team found Routh’s superman by following Luthor’s wake of destruction. It might have sped up the success significantly, and they need the edge. The Batman psychopath was an obvious deconstruction of The Dark Knight Returns, and Kara outlasted Clark because she’s the title character not him.
I liked Bruce being a murderous asshole, honestly.For one, it was a well-played swerve from our expectations. No one, absolutely no one would’ve expected the voice of one of the most iconic Batman in history to go that far, and it’s such a slow burn, going from “mournful and regretful” to “openly owning his assholishness”.But, more importantly? Its important for Kate’s character. She’s just starting out as Batwoman, and one of the big things about Bruce in this was the escalation. You kill one, and then another, and then another, and it stops hurting so much.And Kate just killed someone. And not just anyone, Bruce Fucking Wayne.(yes, I know, you could say it was an accident, she wasn’t trying to, but ask yourself if she would look at it that way)It’s the dark warning of where things could go with her. And while I would’ve loved the pure nostalgia trip of him being his old self, I love what they did with him regardless.
and it was the same way that Robin killed the Joker in the “Return of the Joker “ movie set in the Batman Beyond series
In the censored version.
He’s just one version of Bruce. They also made Supergirl a nazi in another crossover. Your complaint is silly.
They made a point to mention in the last episode that Oliver’s sacrifice was purely for Elseworlds, and did not count towards Barry’s foreseen death.
OK, maybe I’m just too much of a fan of the original story, but as much as I’m liking seeing Crisis on Infinite Earths adapted, it’s got some significant issues. One is that I really, REALLY don’t care for how the antimoniter looks here. I feel like they should have kept with the designs from the comic. This one isn’t nearly as imposing. Another is that they’ve done a massive injustice to Pariah so far. As fun as it was, I wish they hadn’t had Will Wheaton as the doomsayer and instead replaced him with Pariah. There are also some key scenes from later in the event I’m worried won’t make it into this version. Fingers crossed. I’m still having fun, but part of me wishes this could have been told separately from the Arrowverse.
So with Constantine’s powers not working, I’m now expecting them to have to go to some alternate version of Hell to retrieve a version of Oliver’s soul. Perhaps one that will explain Tom Ellis’s ‘visit to the set’ a few months back.
Oho, that seems likely.Although I’d love it if they were down tojust one more paragon to find and they were like “okay, so apparently it’s . . . wait, LUCIFER?!?!‽”
I’m glad that Kara brought up the idea of not trusting the Monitor and that his motivations are being probed more deeply than he seems to want us to believe with his emotionless expositional ‘collect all 7′ schtick. Perhaps it’s a greater test of all their characters for them to rebel against the authority he’s projecting and pursue what they sense to be right rather than what they’re told: that would be what makes them heroes. I’d like to see them do everything narratively justifiable to try to reverse deaths, just as you would expect the narrative to find a way in regular episodes, only to find a well-written way that even tropes like deus ex machina and plot armor can’t save them. The best narrative way out of such a cul de sac is for it to ultimately be their choice to lose: to give up everything to save everyone. That way it’s not so much destiny as it is character, which of the two driving forces, is always the more compelling.
Interesting that the American-accented Anti-Monitor pronounces himself as the British ‘Antee’ rather than the more stereotypically American ‘Antigh’. Is this because of how old-world he is?
Plenty of Americans use ‘antee’, as in antibodies.For a lot of people it’s interchangeable, like ee-ther or eye-ther.
Huh? I dont know anyone who pronounces it Antigh in the US, its always Antee.I didn’t even know there WAS a different pronunciation.
When they mentioned “Bat of the future”, I immediately thought they managed to slip Terry McGinnis in here. But when it turned out to be Kate instead, I was only slightly disappointed, but I’m still happy with it anyway.I was hoping Tom would have more to do here, but if this is the last we see of him, then I’m happy it ended like this. It feels like a natural conclusion to the series.I don’t like Routh’s new Superman costume.
Routh’s Superman costume is just the Kingdom Come costume, from what I recall. I like it as a variation, but it’s not a classic really. (The Supergirl continuity costume for Superman, conversely, really reminds me of the Eradicator’s Superman costume and I think that’s a really solid design, particularly for live action.)
Did the monitor mention a Book of the Guardians ( as well as the book of Destiny?)…and is that the Green Lantern Guardians? ( as opposed to say a novelisation of the 90s arcade game ‘Guardians of the hood’?)
I literally jumped out of my seat when I heard that. How is that not being talked about more?I don’t think the show has the budget to actually show the Guardians but still.
I will DIE if they show a Digg from another Earth who is a Green Lantern, like how it was hinted before, even for a second.
Yup. Normally, they call it the Book of Oa, but yeah.
I did hear it! And there’s a line in Part 3 that makes me think that was not a coincidence!
This was a much better episode than the one before it; the plot is far less of a straight line, indeed it kept me guessing. And, I’m glad they introduced the Book of Destiny as a reset button. I observe that the Monitor said using it would drive a person insane, not that it wouldn’t fix things.I feel like Lena should oughtta be a paragon of something. I forget what the paragons are, but if there’s a Paragon Of Sneaky Planningness, I could see Jon Cryer assuming it’s him, only to freak out when it turns out to be Lena.I’m disappointed Tom Welling Clark gave up his powers, but that is such a “Smallville” thing to do: “Smallville” was pretty muh all about Clark refusing to step up as long as he possibly could. Am I allowed to ope that there will be an epilogue in all this where Tom Welling embraces his powers again and starts being the Superman he’s destined to be? Yes I say destined:
“I promised them I wouldn’t include them in anymore Crossovers”. Oh Legends, never change.I love that both Supergirl and Batwoman had big roles in their respective episodes, and that Kate will be a major character throughout the crossover. But dammit, she HAD to take the kryptonite, didn’t she?
So this is going to sound silly but got genuinely emotional during that first Paragon expository scene. Crisis (seemingly, chickens ain’t hatched yet etc.) of all stories being used to place Kara front and centre is wonderful, that they do so with a title (Paragon of Hope) that we’ve actively seen her earn over four and a half years even more so. I’ll get stick for this I know but in 2020 I’d much rather we hold up “hope, help and compassion for all” over “truth, justice and the American way” as an ideal to strive for.For that matter the Kate / Kara team hasn’t missed a beat since Elseworlds and I’m genuinely looking forward to seeing more of that over and above anything Marvel or DC have on the cinematic slate for next year or so. Actually, so far at least, Batwoman is slotting in to the group dynamics nicely. Loved her immediately placing Lex in the scum category based on Kara’s reaction and a couple of sentences (though I really hope Jon Cryer’s tweet about him joking Lex thinks Kate’s in to him comes through on-screen somewhere, that’d be a blast).Talking of how the hell did we end up with the best live action Lex there’s ever been seemingly out of the blue? Charming, motivated, genuinely not a nice person but with understandable motivation… brilliant job all ways round. Kinda hoping that Lena sees him and immediately pulls a gun just for the hell of it.One last thing I’ve gotta mention: while my inner fanboy has been Kermit Flailing throughout Crisis thus far whole new levels were reached when the John Williams Superman theme hit. I’m one of those that ended up genuinely annoyed by, well, everything in Man of Steel (not least the wasted potential) and that one audio cue reminding us that Supes can be *that* version as well had the room very dusty. Although I’d still love to hear it given to Kara, feels like she’s kinda earned it at this point.
Favorite Scene of the Episode: the VERY visble Government of Canada sign when Lois and Clark were standing outside in what is clearly a Vancouver GoC office building. I got to say though if you’re going to have a Metropolis stand in it should be Toronto, that is what the city is based on.
Not going to lie I had a huge smile when the Williams theme started playing AND confirmation that the Routh superman is the same from the Reeve movies and Returns.Nice playing with fan expectations with Conroy.Some fans, again, are giving Welling crap on twitter. While it was clear the scene was written just in case he said no, it fit the Smallville universe well.My theory on Oliver of e 16 being a time displaced e1 Ollie is stronger.Btw how about last night’s Black Lightning? It felt like a good crisis backup story!
I don’t know Smallville, but I sure liked wood chopping Superman. His “I haven’t missed these conversations.” made me laugh. I liked Lex Luthor doing the math in his head real quick and realizing he was about to get beaten by a powerless Superman, and then trying to cover his retreat with the excuses. Their whole exchange was pretty funny.Kevin Conroy was good. Animated series Batman is the only Batman I’ve ever really spent much time with. He was on every afternoon when I was in elementary school. Plus he’s Captain Sunshine in beloved Venture Brothers. I was pleased to find out that he’s actually a pretty good actor.
Lois going “he is either Clark or that guy on paper towels” was hilarious when they saw lumberjack Supes.
When it clicked with Clark that he really was a Lex just not his Lex was great. As was him without punking Lex without powers.
Conversely, Lex sneering about how his Clark couldn’t POSSIBLY be Supes despite, like, every other universe’s Clark was hilarious. That entire exchange was gold.
I said this elsewhere in the comments that he can’t connect the dots that his Clark is Supes well then.
It really bothered me how small his axe was
I stopped watching The Flash because I just don’t like Barry, but I really enjoyed him and Mia helping each other put on their bad idea jeans and Sara eventually going along for the ride. Even though this episode felt like it stretched the plot incredibly thin in order to make these team ups and special appearances happen, I enjoyed it more than the first hour.
Routh has Christopher Reeves’ Clark down cold! The stoop, pushing back the glasses, the speech cadence, everything. He really was amazing as Superman. Too bad the movie was so bad.That said, I’m enjoying all the awkward the Crisis is causing. Kara’s comment on Ray bulking up being shut down by her Kal telling her that it’s her cousin, “sorta” was great. I don’t know if Mia realizes Sara is Ollie’s ex, again sorta, but I can’t wait for Mia and Ray to figure out the whole Felicity connection. That’s going to really be awkward.
Beebo bless Mick Rory, who is the same good ole Mick Rory on any earth. Also so glad Wentworth Miller got to come back in such a perfect way, though I was hoping that Harbinger would show up on that alternate Waverider to find a grizzled Rip Hunter (!).
Love that Barry was essentially the weeping lover for Ollie this episode. He started as a Green Arrow fanboy and now he’s gonna bring his first super superfriend back, damnit! Also any time I get to see Constantine on my screen is a good time. More Constantine always.
I will never understand the absolutely moronic decision to boot Brandon Routh this season. He is the heart of Legends. Why would you boot the heart of the team??? I’m glad he’s at least getting to be such a focal point of this crossover. Seeing him play Clark Kent again especially was awe inspiring and sweet.
Welling’s scene was perfectly executed. Also love that Iris is so much better at explaining these cosmic shenanigans than Lois because she’s had to explain multiple universes to people for seasons now.
Wow, Ruby Rose and Melissa Benoist have some great chemistry. Makes me wish we could replace a certain other character on Batwoman…..
This may be my bias toward Legends of Tomorrow, but man I love the Waverider. Doesn’t truly feel like a cosmic crossover until all the regular heroes join the wackadoo Legends on their sentient ship.
I don’t know if someone else already said this, but the funniest moment of the episode for me was when Lex said “That’s how I know that the Superman of this universe is Clark Kent. Which is ridiculous because the Clark in my universe can’t see passed his glasses”.The superiority complex that he has that makes him so oblivious and so in character was such a great character moment for Lex as well as being hilarious
I was worried they wouldn’t have remembered how Smallville actually ended here, but it all lined up nicely! Having him give up his powers to start a family really worked for me. I mean he was Superman for 7 years (2011-2018 at least going by the Smallville finale), and had defeated the majority of his most dangerous enemies before he even put on the cape, so retiring at 31 makes enough sense that I’ll buy it! Although the timeline of them having children old enough to play with toy cars is a little questionable… Loved the line about Lex being president (again yay for remembering the finale! :))
Other things I noticed (that everyone else probably did too):- One of the images on the newspapers Smallville Clark had hung up was of the final shot of the series. Cool nod, but not sure who was able to get that picture in universe…- So Brandon Routh Superman is meant to be Christopher Reeves/Superman Returns version. But even though Returns ignored the continuity from 3 and 4, he directly mentions the fight he had with himself in Superman 3.- Having red heat streams heat vision matches Returns, so glad they used that instead of the Supergirl blue heat vision.- He says his son is called Jason, was that Lois’ son’s name from Returns? Can’t remember…- Kevin Conroy Batman does have a direct reference to Batman V Superman, he says “my parents taught me a different lesson”. Apologies if that’s actually a line from the comics originally, but it’s definitely in BVS.- Yay for return of Wentworth Miller! Pretty sure he confirmed after Legends season 3 he’d said goodbye to the Arrowverse, but I guess he was happy to record some dialogue. Hopefully his vocals pop up again in the crossover!
The crossovers are the only time I’m excited enough to watch live rather than timeshifted so I haven’t actually watched the CW since last year and jeez did they go back heavy on the ad load for this one. Early on it was running lean and then by the halfway point it was commercials at every scene break.The upside is I now know their is a Nancy Drew show that looks like season one of Veronica Mars except with ghosts. So that’s something.
Nancy Drew has been legit fun. I hope they manage to keep it from going completely off the rails (looking at you, Riverdale)
I think it’s funny that they just announced that Bruce Wayne was Batman and Kate told them to keep it on the down low. Atom seemed stunned. I wasn’t a fan of making Batman bad, but whatever. Good episode.
This is how the main plot thread on Supergirl must now resolve in the first episode post-crisis:Lena: “How DARE you lie to me! Betray me! Hiding your identity is an unforgivable sin. As a result, I shall bend billions to my will for…….altruistic reasons?”Kara: “The second your brother had the means to know who and where all the Supermen of the Multiverse were, he set out to murder all of them. Surely a person of your intelligence and ability can incorporate this relevant, recent, and concrete example into your thinking about why my having a secret identity is pretty necessary.”Lena: “Oh. Well, um……Lex and I aren’t that close, you know. I did shoot him. I will destroy Myriad in the morning. Game night, anyone?”Kara: “If you want full transparency, you should hang out with the gang at Star Labs. You will have their identities, social security numbers, bank account numbers and home alarm codes by the end of the first hour!”
And again, because apparently it bears repeating despite Lena having already said so multiple times: Lena isn’t pissed about the identity thing. Lena’s hurt because she mistakenly believes their entire friendship (and her friendships with all the Superfriends) was a lie and she was just a convenient tool for her/them to manipulate. That’s why she feels betrayed. It’s been stated over and over on Supergirl that it’s not just the identity secret. Do people just not pay attention to character dialogue? It’s kind of important, y’know.
And what secret were they all keeping from her that made her feel that their friendships were a lie? Of course it isn’t only the identity secret, since we are talking about multiple seasons of lies. But that secret of who Kara really is is where it all started and where the other untruths spring from-she IS pissed about the identity thing. Obviously. It is a major part of her justification to take over the minds of the world, and I think it is kind of flimsy. Sorry if that bothers you. If your point is that it is more complicated then what I wrote in my short, joking post, I agree. The show has done a good job of showing why Lena’s background of experiencing betrayal would lead her to react in this way. It is also really self evident, so I’m not sure what you are trying to say. You are acting really condescending about something that is really not very complicated.
Fair. I’m just baffled and a little annoyed because there seem to be a ton of people who genuinely believe that it’s just about the secret identity and keep reducing it to that even though the show has made a concentrated effort to get across the point that it’s not the case. It really isn’t complicated, like you said, so the fact that people actually find it hard to grasp is kind of tiring, and that’s why I responded antagonistically, which I shouldn’t have.I meant “she’s not pissed about the identity thing” in the sense that the source of her fury is really how it extends outwards to making her doubt everything about their friendship. The point being that those two things are inextricably linked because of her own history of baggage, and people who try to reduce it to just the identity thing are blatantly ignoring what the show has basically hammered us over the head with.
No problem-I am glad we are both enjoying the show!
Kara: “Also, Lex is still alive. You didn’t murder him. So quit lording it over me that you killed your brother because of our friendship.”
I fucking love how they trolled the audience. Earth-99 (the year Batman Beyond premiered!) and we get… a murderous, psychopathic Batman. Kevin Conroy is always great but, well, you can kinda’ tell he’s been phoning it in on some projects the past fifteen years. Not here. He fuckin’ brought it.The Burton (sorry, the Anton Furst) ‘89 Batmobile was in the batcave.For those clinging to hope we’ll see Tom suit up yet, there might be another scene from Earth-167 (unless something just got cut from last night’s episode):
We technically see the inside in the scene from last night – there is a wall of Lois’s articles framed (e.g. “I Spent the Night with Superman”) that we pan over and then the camera focuses through the window and then see Welling chopping wood before Lois/Iris/Clark show up.
Also, I love that they send Iris with Clark and Lois – it’s the journalist team up!
You know what? I actually thought that was some kind of bulletin board or some kind of exterior wall (I thought it was weird when I first watched it).Well, then that might be it.
Was never a big Smallville fan, but I loved the Welling/Cryer scene. Superman giving up his powers is right out of Alan Moore’s Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow? which (if I recall correctly) came out shortly before Crisis. Also loved that Lex knows the Clark Kent of that Earth is Superman and the Kara Danvers of his Earth is Supergirl but can’t connect the dots to realize the Clark Kent of his Earth is also Superman.Speaking of Supermen, Routh was exceptional in all of his scenes. References to Kingdom Come (Joker killing Lois), Superman Returns (his son Jason), and Superman III (went crazy, fought self), plus the Williams score not just during the fight but also the first time he sees Earth-38 Lois Lane. Just spectacular.
I had a deep dislike for Smallville when it was airing, but the Welling/Cryer scene might be the best scene of this special so far.
Seriously, given Lex’s comments about Clark’s glasses, we can only assume that the Luthors of E-38 are REALLY susceptible to falling for that disguise lmao.
Fantastic episode. I know not everyone is going to be completely happy with Conroy’s Bruce we ended up getting, but honestly? I thought it was a decent twist. Visually we all thought Kingdom come, but we didn’t exactly get that, and I’m glad, it’s always nice having a few surprises in these things, and Conroy as a failed, murderous Batman really worked well. As soon as we saw Clark’s glasses I knew Kara and Kate were in trouble, this Bats is crazy.
i miss the AV Club. Whatever happened to
“it’s a race against the cruelest…OF CLOCK
Luke should have ran into the cave crying hysterically like when Denny found Tommy dead in The Room.
I enjoyed this episode a lot more than the first part, but that’s probably because of the decent Superman/Batman focus, which I honestly never thought we’d get in the Arrowverse when it started way back when. A little sad ‘our’ Lois and Clark had minimal interaction with Smallville Clark (and none with his Lois), but it was a really nice callback to that series and felt like a suitable ‘sequel’ to how that show worked.Brandon Routh returning (ahhhh) as Superman was just as cool as I hoped, and Kevin Conroy’s bitter, murderous Bruce Wayne was…unexpected, but also really cool. I also liked the comment from his Luke about “who do you think put him in that suit” when talking to Kara about the Clark Kent glasses (even though I preferred Bruce’s initial line (lie?) about the suit being a result of a lifetime of injuries).Bravo, writers, on using a Lazarus Pit to resurrect Oliver – I honestly completely forgot about these! Although the Alternate Jonah Hex cameo was completely pointless.The Book of Destiny is a pretty shameless deus ex machina, isn’t it? At least now we know (probably) how things could go back to normal after the Crisis. I’m predicting Oliver (since he has incredible strength of will) uses the Book, not Kara, and in doing so sacrifices himself so that the multiverse returns (and so Kara doesn’t have to risk her life/no one else has to be hurt).
…He has incredible strength of will..*this* would have been a perfect Diggle/GL easter egg.
That Jonah Hex cameo made me so happy and was so unexpected. He’s for sure one of Legends best recurring characters. (It still blows my mind the actor also played the lead singer in That Thing You Do.)
what’s happening at her hairline? It looks like makeup under her hair.
What I found interesting about Brandon Routh’s Superman is that they more or less outright stated he was playing the version from Superman Returns – and by extension the version originated by Christopher Reeve, since Superman Returns was meant to be a sequel to those films. They use the John Williams score. Routh’s Superman has a son named Jason. This isn’t just a Superman inspired by Kingdom Come we’re seeing; it’s the future – or at least a future – of the most iconic version of Superman ever to appear on film. It’s sad to think that’s the destiny of the Reeve/Routh Superman: to be unable, ultimately, to save Lois, Perry, or Jimmy, and lose nearly everyone he loves in one day.It was great seeing the future of Smallville, even if there were, shall we say, absent friends. I’m a bit bummed we didn’t see Tom Welling in the tights fighting alongside his fellow Supermen – though perhaps I shouldn’t speak so soon – but after everything that version of Clark Kent went through, well, it was nice to see him enjoying a quiet, happy life. It was also amusing to me to see him turn up in Crisis, since the Smallville Season 11 comics and their follow-ups ultimately ended in their own version of Crisis on Infinite Earths.
A step down after the great start. These shows excel at the little character moments (Clark meeting Clark, Smallville, etc.), but the spectacle part is where it falls down for me. That Superman vs. Superman fight was not a lot of fun to watch.
Ok, so I’m more fucking confused about the timeline than ever. Kate says she’s new to this whole vigilante thing, and talks as if Alice killing her step-mother and framing their father for it is fresh. But then Kara comes right out and says that she saved Barry & Oliver’s asses last year. SO WHICH THE FUCK IS IT?! IF ELSEWORLDS HAPPENED BETWEEN EPISODES 4 & 5 OF THIS SEASON OF BATWOMAN, THEN A FUCKING YEAR HAS TO HAVE PASSED BETWEEN EPISODE 5 AND THIS ONE, AND IT’S DRIVING ME UP THE FUCKING WALL.
Enough being pushed around. It’s time for Lyla… to direct this personally.
Who’d have thought that Mick Rory would be so good with babies? XD
So did MIck steal the waverider and was wallowing after Zaris death.
I was grateful for the hints of Shirley Walker’s Batman theme when Bruce showed up, but could have used the full leitmotif, like they did with Burton and ‘66 in Ep 1.But still: we had Gay Batman vs Lesbian Batwoman, which brings me joy.
would do anything for a shot of Tim Daly as a Superman with the Walker theme going
Really enjoyed the Smallville Welling/Durance cameos – a bit more Erica Durance would have been nice, but Welling standing solidly (and slightly blankly) in a checked shirt in a farm sounds about right!The whole side plot with Barry, Sara, Mia and Constantine and the Lazarus pit was wheel spinning dullness for me. How many times have we gone back to that plot. It’s a cheat to kill someone off then ‘oh, what about the Lazarus pit?’ But also dead time. A lot of screen minutes for…. he’s back but not quite right. Could they not come up with a better way to bring back Oliver in all these infinite earths?Enjoyed the Routh/Hoechlin Superman fight off. Brandon Routh was SO DULL in that horrible movie, but is so charming in Legends. Definitely going to miss him.Nice to see Kate Kane have a major role – this was officially a Batwoman episode – and her and Kara make an interesting team up. Kara has a different relationship with her than her usual cast or Ollie and Barry.As always, Mick is brilliant! Liked him as a champ baby sitter :)Wonder if Lex is going to have any interaction with Lena? Might make a difference to her annoyance at Kara and the gang, might just make her more pissed off!
”It was nice for Constantine to pop in, though.”Glad to be seen.
I’m really starting to hate this crossover. Kevin Conroy has been the Definitive Batman Voice for an entire generation of fans, myself included, he finally gets to play a live-action version of Bruce, and this is what they do with him? He’s a murderous, edgelord asshole who tries to kill Supergirl, and then dies? Fuck. That. Shit. Conroy deserved so much better.“But they needed Kate to see how horrible killing is so that she doesn’t kill Alice or let her father kill Alice.”Well, gosh, if only there were, I don’t know, an ex-League of Assassins member or a superhero who used to regularly kill bad guys with arrows and spent entire seasons of his own show dealing with the consequences that she could talk to about why killing is bad. Oh wait, there are? Huh.And what kind of idiotic plan was that for the Monitor to let Lex escape and go on a Superman-killing spree, all so he could lead them to the Superman who was a Paragon? Yeah, because it’s not like the Monitor also had a genius scientist working on a Paragon detecting device that would have been ready in a matter of hours. Oh wait, THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD. So I guess all those Supermen died for nothing.Also, the episode of Black Lightning that aired after this and was a sort-of Crisis tie-in may have been the worst episode of that show they’ve ever done.
A few random thoughts from a Supergirl fan# 1. Billions were saved? How? 2. “Bruce Wayne is the Dark Knight?” for the win. 3. How does Kara’s Lex know her secret identity but not Clark’s? 4. The confrontation between Lex and Earth-167 Clark was wonderful 5. Kara coming on to Earth-96 Kal was awkward 6. It took them the whole episode to figure out Kate is “the bat of the future”? Seriously? 7. Okay, Kara is going to use the Book of Destiny to do a reset so there’ll at least be a DEO, CatCo, etc. on Earth-1 8. When the Monitor mentioned the “Paragon of Courage,” did anyone else think of a lion?
I never watched Smallville but the scene with that Clark and Lex still felt pretty perfect. Especially how Lex was beside himself when he found out that Clark gave it all up. Really puts the lie to all of his lofty bullshit. And how he just runs when it’s clear his plan isn’t going to work, and tries to make it a “yeah well I don’t even want to defeat you now” thing.
Kara’s obvious mortification at finding her alternate universe cousin supremely hot? Priceless.
Kind of had mixed feelings on this episode. Enjoyed most parts but again I’m getting such a head rush at times with the intense pace of the storytelling.Was always going to be good to see Tom Welling back, yet after all the hype his appearance felt a bit underwhelming. Even more distracting is the fact that he gives up his powers. Why? No Superman should ever do that, even in Smallville so it was disappointing to see.Routh looked awesome in the Kingdom Come suit, but yet again we had to have an evil Superman duped by Luthor. Just having him fight Hoechin’s Superman felt like a repeat from the Elseworlds crossover. I would’ve preferred more characterization instead of a versus fight which had no lasting effect here.Then there’s Conroy as Batman. Whilst I would never disrespect him and appreciate his importance with fans, but his acting was not great and perhaps highlighted the difference between voice acting and actual physical acting with other cast members. Also did we really need yet another murderous Batman, hating and killing Superman? Did we not learn from the foolish direction of Snyder’s BVS version. A lot of people criticise CW for downplaying Superman in favour of Kara – but this felt a lot like assassinating Batman’s character in order to enhance Kate’s importance to the cause.Resurrecting Oliver via the Lazarus pit really made episode 1 ending feel like a cop out. Why have that scene if he’s going to be back the next episode? Really took away the impact of that moment.Despite all of that I’m still entertained. We have a bit more story to support the fan service this time, i just wish things would slow down a bit especially as we have 5 episodes to tell the story.
What exactly is the timeline for Kate??
Kara talks about the events of the previous crossover happening ‘last year’, but Kate was established as Batwoman during that so I assumed the events we’ve seen in her show take place before that….but this episode definitely feels like she’s still in the midst of everything happening with Alice. So….wtf
It’s only right the voice GOAT OG Batman appears as him in live action and he didn’t disappoint at all.
The second installment felt like a bunch of side quests. Where are all
the red skies? It saps the tension if they’re only traveling to
altverses not on the brink of destruction. (Black Lightning’s
mid-season finale may have only been a loose tie-in, but it felt more
urgent in its focus.) It’s mostly about finding seven paragons, but
there’s too much filler.
White Canary arbitrarily doesn’t want The Monitor using her Waverider as a base to save the Multiverse, but fans still say Lena is the petty one?
So The Monitor pointlessly wasted everyone’s effort instead of waiting
for Ray’s results. Surely there was a less gratuitous way to include all
the fan service?
I know I’m going to be in the minority, but I severely disliked Kevin Conroy’s cameo. Maybe it’s because I haven’t gotten around to watching Batwoman and so there’s a lot of reference and resonance I’m missing, but as someone coming in cold it felt like “Hey, here, have the iconic Batman you grew up with, taking a colossal dump all over Batman’s values in a way that probably would make Zack Snyder wince.”On a more positive note, I wonder if Smallville-Clark and Lois having daughters is a nod to Superman: Secret Identity (where the main character, an alternate Clark Kent who developed Kryptonian abilities, had two daughters).
It’s an alternate earth Batman. I’m okay with that. We’ve already seen that alternate earth heroes can go against the values of the “real” ones we see each week on the shows. Having Kara and Oliver as nazis doesn’t taint my view of the “real” Supergirl and Green Arrow.
I do get it’s an alternate Earth Batman and the rules go out the window there. (After all, as we’ve seen in the comics, there are a number of universes where Batman gets murderous) My issue is less ‘this is a Batman gone bad to teach Kate some sort of lesson’ and more ‘this is a Batman gone bad and they went to the effort of having Kevin Conroy play him.’ I can’t have been the only one who was initially looking forward to the Conroy cameo, expecting something that would pay proper homage to his history with the character (which is, to a lot of folks, the definitive portrayal). I’m going to give the writers some benefit of the doubt that this wasn’t the intent, but in the moment it felt like a bait and switch and it really soured my feelings on the episode.
I just assumed that Welling was powerless because he had always refused to put on the suit and I think had stated previously he didn’t really want to ever revisit the character as Superman. Makes sense and was a great moment.
Awesome crossover