Kevin Feige now says it was a mistake to cast Tilda Swinton as The Ancient One in Doctor Strange
Film Features Kevin Feige
Years ago, before the release of Doctor Strange, Marvel Studios jumped headfirst into a whitewashing controversy when it announced that Tilda Swinton would be playing mysterious magical master The Ancient One, a move that Marvel eventually confirmed was a conscious decision, presumably to avoid promoting racist stereotypes. The Ancient One is a Tibetan man in the comics, making him part of a shamefully long tradition of mystical Asian stereotypes in Western fiction, so Marvel’s idea to get around that was to go in a completely different direction and explain that “The Ancient One” is actually a title that’s passed down from person to person. Still, that didn’t get around the fact that Marvel was whitewashing a traditionally Asian character, which Western fiction has also been doing for a long time, and that aspect of the controversy followed Doctor Strange even after its release—like when Margaret Cho revealed that Swinton had personally reached out to ask her why people were upset about the role, with Cho taking some offense at the idea that she was supposed to speak for all Asian people.
Now, speaking with Men’s Health, Marvel Studios boss Kevin Feige has conceded for the first time that casting Tilda Swinton was a mistake. He says they really wanted to avoid the stereotype of the “wizened, old, wise Asian man,” but the backlash was a “wake-up call” that made him realize they could’ve found another way to “both not fall into the cliché and cast an Asian actor.” It’s worth pointing out, at the risk of being cynical, that this interview was given in the lead-up to the release of Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings, Marvel Studios’ first movie with a primarily Asian cast, so now is the most opportune time for Feige to walk back the Swinton decision.
Feige generally seems like a genuine guy, so it’s not necessarily fair to suggest that he’s just saying this now because he wants people to see Shang-Chi, but he does have a history of not realizing that certain moves to promote inclusivity and representation in his movies would be a good idea until people really push him on them. He spent years talking about how much he wanted to make Black Widow and Captain Marvel movies before actually doing it, and he still hasn’t gotten around to confirming the all-female team-up movie that Tessa Thompson told him to make in 2017. Basically, it seems like the best way to convince Feige to keep making Marvel movies more diverse is to keep yelling at him about it.
168 Comments
My recollection was that the issue involved the character being Tibetan specifically. If you want your movie to be released in China, you need to tread carefully around the subject of Tibet.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s entirely cynical to say that there’s absolutely no way we’d have seen an actual Tibetan in the role.
China is so severe about it that they hate even the suggestion of Tibet. So a Chinese or even Korean or Japanese actor playing the role might have also upset them. Ixnay on the Ibetnay
To be fair, the actor pool for that probably isn’t that big
Same recollection. I remember the issue not just as “white washing” but also “we don’t want to upset the Chinese market by casting a Tibetan actor to play a high profile and powerful Tibetan character.” By that logic, white washing was the only option left, besides growing a pair actually using a Tibetan actor to play a Tibetan character. If they’d cast a non-Tibetan Asian, they would have been subject to (fair) criticism that they think all Asians are the same. And if they cast a real Tibetan, China might not allow the film access to their market. I appreciate the complexity, though I was still annoyed they didn’t do the right thing and make the character Tibetan with a Tibetan actor.
Hi, did you know you can buy things with money?
What’s your point? That if people ignore human rights violations, they can make more money and buy more things? And I shouldn’t allow that to annoy me?
I’m amazed you even get to see these movies, with all the time you must spend polishing your halo and looking down upon us from your high horse.
You’re suggesting I somehow don’t know how the world works because I’m taking the supposedly radical stance of being bothered by things like human rights violations, oppressive regimes, ethnic cleaning, as if these things don’t bother you. If they truly don’t, then yea, I suppose I would look down on you and assume you’re some kind of psychopath.
What bothers you so much about the idea that “dang, kind of sucks China’s market size allows it to dictate the content of global pop culture to fit its propaganda needs, I wish Marvel could tell them to suck it”? Why does that set you off?
There is nothing less radical than self-appointed heroes whining on the Internet about how someone else should earn their money. It’s the backbone of the Internet.
There’s literally nothing you can say to me that will make me feel guilty about [checks notes] criticizing ethnic cleansing and forced occupation. You’re really stretching here. Is this some kind of troll bit or are you just in way over your head?
Explain how.
But some Asian actors get roles for Asian characters they weren’t originally from. Like how a Japanese actor will play either a Korean or Chinese actor cuz maybe he/she is best for that role…but now, I think more casting directors are trying to fill that actor-nationality role more than just hiring any Asian person to play a specific Asian character.
For example: John Cho (S. Korean) playing Sulu (Japanese).
Thats bullshit. They didnt have to cast someone specifically from tibet. Yes, casting any asian actor wouldve been better than casting a white one.
Here’s the baffling thought process:Marvel: “We don’t wanna alienate China, so we won’t make the Ancient One Tibetan.”Also Marvel: “We don’t wanna do Tibet dirty, so we won’t make the Ancient One Chinese.”Also
also Marvel: “Tragically there are no other countries associated with
the Himalayas, and there certainly isn’t one that has the largest film
industry in the world, so no use looking around here for someone who
could feasibly be in these mountains, let’s get a white person.”
Well, they set that part of the film in Nepal. They could have cast a Nepalese actor, but they also clearly wanted someone famous and how many famous Nepalese actors are there? My guess is zero (now watch someone come in here and be like “actually, Harrison Ford is originally from Nepal” or something).
They could’ve easily cast a Nepalese Ancient One as well if they weren’t interested in name recognition (unless there’s a Nepalese megastar I’m not thinking of), but yeah, I think it’s nuts that their first thought when it came to casting somebody was a white lady and not one of the many, many Indian actors that would not only do a great job, not only make way more sense in the role, but could be used from a cold capitalistic POV to market the movie like crazy in India.
There are not a lot of Nepalese movie stars and none of them have recognition abroad. But yes, that would have been the right choice. If you want to make the Ancient One a Buddhist monk, many Nepalese practice the same form of Buddhism as Tibet. Of course, that would have required someone to do 10 minutes of research, and that was clearly beyond anyone’s abilities at Marvel.
I know there aren’t a lot of Nepalese movie stars, but that’s why I keep bringing up India as an alternative. There are so many Indian movie stars that would’ve made for awesome Ancient Ones.
This is a case where ethnicity really really matters in representation. The ethnic groups in Nepal do not consider themselves Indian and vice versa. Also, Indian Bollywood stars are trained in a certain type of dramatic acting that doesn’t translate well to American movies. They over-emote intentionally, as they needed to over-emote on stage so that people in the cheap seats could tell what was going on, and they translated that straight to other media. There are plenty of crossover actors, but much less than you would imagine considering how big an industry Bollywood is. The Nepali movie business is just a very small market because they don’t have the money for big productions and they just important stuff from India most of the time anyway.
What I’m saying is that if they were going to go with an actor from outside the region to play a character who’s spent centuries in the Himalayas, in what universe does it make more sense to go with a white person rather than someone from that general part of the world? And if you’re struggling to find someone from the very specific area, why not look two steps to the left at the gigantic film industry full of talented performers who could very easily perform this role?I’m not at all suggesting Nepal and India are the same place, but I’m sure as hell saying India’s a lot closer to a feasible Ancient One than literally any European. If Marvel had hired a Nepalese actor, that would’ve been terrific, but an Indian actor would’ve still been way better than Tilda Swinton in terms of casting that makes a lick of sense. (Also, plenty of Bollywood actors are more than capable of performing outside of the over-emoting style; top of my head, the late great Irrfan Khan.)
It’s clear Marvel wanted a big name actor, and it wouldn’t make sense to get a no-name (in America) from India rather than a no-name from Nepal; you’re still getting the ethnicity wrong AND not putting a name on the poster that people recognize. Ethnic political divisions in the area are actually really complicated, so they were bound to piss everyone off anyway. Or they could have just hired ONE person familiar with these issues as a consultant.
They did film a lot in Kathmandu, which impressed me. And there actual Tibetans in the background when he’s walking around Boudnath before it flips to a set. I also found the idea of a magic school in Kathmandu where everyone speaks English and there’s lots of white people to be pretty on-target; Nepal is loaded with places were Westerners backpack their way in expecting enlightenment on the cheap.
I mean, if they wanted a big-name actor for marketing purposes then I don’t think Tilda Swinton fits the bill any better than Irrfan Khan, especially for a secondary character. And a big-name Indian actor would bring in so much money in that market, no way they’d lose more money in the West than they’d make in Asia as a result.
Oh the big Asian markets don’t care for our movies or don’t allow them. Dr. Strange was never going to China because it involves religion, magic, and time travel. Marvel had to cut out the reference to Tibet because Chinese censors will hold “insults” (like mentioning Tibet) against an entire film company and all of its actors, and they wanted Iron Man 3 to go there. India has its own market, so American movies aren’t super big there, and they often find the Marvel and Star Wars stuff to be really cool looking (we are waaay ahead of them on special effects) but culturally very confusing. Especially if you have an MCU but only a couple movies came over – then it gets very confusing.
Irrfan Khanis a Muslim actor from Rajastan. Not only does he not look Nepali, he isn’t Nepali, and it would be insulting to Nepalis for him to play one and it wouldn’t win any major audiences in India – not enough to be worth it as a financial risk for Marvel. It’s already pretty insulting to say, “Hey, same region of the world, good enough” with casting – we do it with Southeast Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc) and they HATE IT. They do know the difference and they find it massively offensive.
When Martin Scorcese did Kundun, he hired Tibetan actors to play all of the Tibetan parts, which was why the acting was a little stilted and the accents all over the place, but he thought it was worth it for authenticity.
Doctor Strange did, in fact, play in China. In fact it made $109 million dollars there.
I don’t know how clearer I can be about the idea of the Ancient One in this concept being Indian, not Nepalese. I haven’t come within a country mile of implying that I’m arguing for an Indian person to play a Nepalese character. I’m saying that it makes more sense for an Indian person to have spent centuries in the Himalayas than a Celtic person, and that’s literally it.Given that you just aren’t seeming to get this, and given you’re for some reason claiming that these movies don’t play in China when they absolutely do, and yeah, I think I’m done here. Take care!
Ah okay. I mean, he’s supposed to be a Buddhist monk, and Buddhism went almost extinct in India a thousand years ago, but I guess it doesn’t really matter because the Ancient One is much older. So that could have worked. Just move the whole narrative to India.
The neighborhood around Boudhanath is a Tibetan exile settlement.
Or as Tibetans call them, southern Tibetans so yeah.But anyway, I don”t think the Chinese would be upset about casting a Tibetan. They do know there’s such a thing. They just want everyone to agree that Tibet is historically and traditionally part of China. Maybe Marvel just wanted to stay far enough away to avoid any unforseen traps.
“But anyway, I don”t think the Chinese would be upset about casting a Tibetan.”This is delusional.
You haven’t said why so let me clarify my statement a bit. The PRC public policy regarding Tibet is not that Tibetan culture or the Tibetan people shouldn’t exist. It’s that the “region” is historically part of China. They obviously know there is such a thing as a Tibetan. If this movie casted a Tibetan but didn’t get anywhere near certain topics such as independence or praise for the Dalai Lama or his Middle Way approach to the Tibet issue then why would this be a problem? I guess simply reminding the world that there is such a thing as a Tibetan might be a problem and maybe the PRC just would prefer no attention to the topic. Maybe there isn’t a way to keep the PRC happy without coming down on their side in the film. Or maybe Marvel just didn’t want to take the risk. Personally, I think it could have been done while remaining neutral.Or maybe it should have been an Indian, Nepali or Bhutanese as others have mentioned given the historical precedent of scholarly monks moving back and forth across India, Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet, China and beyond spreading Buddhism. The Ancient One could have fit right in there.
So Tibet is just replaceable with anyone other country nearby?Jesus.And the notion that China would just be fine with Tibetan representation is just comical, regardless of what their PR states. Give us a break.
Historically, Tibetans have lived in all those places and still do to this day, not counting exile groups.“Ancient Ones”—gurus, monks, lamas, sadhus, pilgrims, etc—highly educated, “enlightened” men and women from those places—spread Buddhism all over Asia. I don’t agree that my point is comical. Purposeless, maybe, but not comical. Why don’t you propose counterpoints?
If you want to make the Ancient One a Buddhist monk, many Nepalese practice the same form of Buddhism as Tibet.Riiiiiiight.So we’re now also going to exclude Protestant actors from playing Catholic Priests because they don’t practice the same form of Christianity?
Of course, that would have required someone to do 10 minutes of research, and that was clearly beyond anyone’s abilities at Marvel.Says the one who just in the previous line implicitly stated that research is for idiots and doesn’t actually convey any knowledge whatsoever, hence why researching Buddhism isn’t enough, you need to practice it…
The problem with playing to the Indian market is not only do they have their own thriving film industry, their film industry does amazing work on the cheap compared to Hollywood films. Their big hit status is “The 100 Crore Club”, which checking the exchange rate today means a hit movie in Indian makes about $13.6M.
Yes, there are exceptions like Baahubali 2: The Conclusion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baahubali_2:_The_Conclusion) which globally made ₹1,810.59 Cr, or $250M US, or Dangal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangal_(film)) which globally took in ₹2,024 Cr, of $311M USD.But those are largely exceptions as most Indian “SuperHits” only make about a tenth of that amount….
I don’t see how that’s relevant to a movie that’s being made either way that might be able to market itself better in a huge filmgoing country by casting a major star in a main role. It’s not like Disney would be spending a ton of money to just make a movie in India exclusively for an Indian audience.
My point, aside from diving deep into the weeds about the box office of Indian cinema, was to say that India isn’t a big market for American movies, which is sadly a factor.OTOH, if Marvel’s feeling daring and like being multicultural is the way to go rather than strictly casting for global boxoffice props? I’ve already suggested a Nepali actor who looks like he’d fit The Ancient One like a glove….
Danny Denzongpa. He would have been amazing in this role. Look him up.
I think it’s nuts that their first thought when it came to casting somebody was a white lady and not one of the many, many Indian actors that would not only do a great job, not only make way more sense in the role, but could be used from a cold capitalistic POV to market the movie like crazy in India.Of course, that totally wouldn’t have led to calls that the fact that they think they can substitute a Chinese with an Indian suggests they think there’s no difference between Chinese and Indian people…
Dichen Lachman!
MEL BROOKS IS FROM NEPAL?!
There are about a dozen Nepalese actors working in Bollywood according to Google, by which I assume they mean Nepalese actors well-known enough to have tripped the algorithm.
Sunil Thapa looks interesting — in addition to being a character actor who often is relegated to playing villains, he also runs the Everest Film Academy in Nepal and played the trainer role in the Indian woman boxing film Mary Kom (starring Priyanka Chopra in the title role).I could completely see this guy playing The Ancient One — and he’s mentioned his desire to appear in American movies in interviews….
Nepal?
why would you think that disney, who filmed mulan partially in Xinjaing and employed Liu Yifei as the lead, wasn’t down with doing Tibet dirty? they did the Uighars and Hong Kong people dirty without batting an eye
Frankly, the only reason I think they care is because they didn’t just cast the Ancient One as a Chinese person. Also, while Disney owns the whole shebang, that doesn’t mean folks at the Marvel casting division have the same views as the folks who did Mulan.
that the issue has been subtly reframed away from “protect China from any Tibet embarrassment” only highlights how they feel they have to protect China from any Tibet embarrasment.
“You know, Kamar-Taj…. In India.”Problem solved. Fictional cities can move.
He probably just wishes he’d casted a Chinese actor. It’s completely disingenuous.
People keep bringing that up. im sure its a factor, but I dont see how its relevant to the casting of Tilda Swinton. They couldve cast an asian actor or acrtess and just not mentioned Tibet at all, still.
“The Ancient One is a Tibetan man in the comics, making him part of a shamefully long tradition of mystical Asian stereotypes in Western fiction, so Marvel’s idea to get around that was to go in a completely different direction and explain that “The Ancient One” is actually a title that’s passed down from person to person. Still, that didn’t get around the fact that Marvel was whitewashing a traditionally Asian character”The important thing is we get to be mad either way.
In unrelated news, the Earth’s oceans oyster population declared an endangered species due to an unprecedented demand for pearls used in the recent American craze of “Clutching.”
I don’t think this is just pearl clutching. When it comes down to it, the arguments against whitewashing are ultimately about people being allowed to work and I think that’s something worth fighting for.
In related news that I initially thought you were referencing, pearl necklaces are an actual fashion trend right now that is being driven by social influences—and especially by men—so I wouldn’t be shocked if actual demand for (real and fake) pearls is increasing siginificantly.
Thoughtful reflection is not pearl-clutching. Discussion of racism is not pearl-clutching.
Where is the racism inherent in this case?
Lol shut the fuck up white boy
This was a great effort, but you gotta do your troll homework before taking it out in public. Pearl-clutching is about being morally shocked or scandalized(1), not offended. It’s a shame to see such enterprising trolling creativity wasted on a failure of basic literacy, but there’s always next time!(1) https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/pearl-clutching
“The Ancient One is a Tibetan man in the comics, making him part of a shamefully long tradition of mystical Asian stereotypes in Western fiction, so Marvel’s idea to get around that was to go in a completely different direction and explain that “The Ancient One” is actually a title that’s passed down from person to person. Still, that didn’t get around the fact that Marvel was whitewashing a traditionally Asian character”The important thing is we get to be mad either way.
I guess it’s true, you can’t please everyone; at least Margaret Cho’s slightly happier.
I get the whitewashing concerns, but it was a damned if you do/don’t situation. Yes, casting an Asian actor would have been nice (preferable?), but seeing as how the character is inherently a mysterious and inscrutable foreigner who teaches the mystical arts I don’t know how they could have avoided the crude stereotype pitfalls. But hey, at least this isn’t the 1980s or earlier, when they would’ve just put Christopher Lee or whoever in yellow-face.
To be fair, if Christopher Lee wanted a part, you gave him the part.
One could say the same thing about Tilda Swinton.
Yeah I think they were well and truly screwed in any scenario. No matter how much you sand the edges, it’s still a character teaching mystic arts to a white guy.
They didn’t have any problem not turning Benedict Wong into a walking stereotype.
Having coincidentally watched it yesterday. I don’t see it.Sure he’s an asian in Asia, the whole stance is that that should be the case when showing it on screen. Damned if you do ….
You thought Wong’s character was a walking stereotype?
Sorry, don’t follow, I didn’t, I thought you were suggesting it
I said exactly the opposite.They didn’t have any problem not turning Benedict Wong into a walking stereotype.
Fuck me, I missed the “not”Apologies
Yeah, I kind of feel like even if you just gave Swinton’s role to an Asian guy and changed no lines, you’d still have a problem. Fiege mentions there being some way to thread the needle, but tellingly, he offers no details.
Still, I think there was probably a way to at least keep complaints to a minimum by modernizing and fleshing out the character a bit. Just off the top of my head, Will Smith has played a couple of roles that share a lot of qualities with the Magical Negro stereotype (the Legend of Bagger Vance, Hitch) and Wong is a taciturn Asian sidekick in the realm of Kato or early Wing, but they got away with it largely just because the character has at least one other character trait. The bar is pretty low here.
Yep, there’s no way they were going to win that one. They should have just stuck with “Swinton was the best person we auditioned for the part, the gender and race were irrelevant” and left it at that. The same people unhappy with it are probably the same ones upset about the Mandarin in IM3.
or just cast Cliff Curtis as yet another ethnicity
Every time I read bullshit like this it makes me 1% more understanding of people who vote for Donald Trump or Brexit.
“[Kevin Feige] does have a history of not realizing that certain moves to promote inclusivity and representation in his movies would be a good idea until people really push him on them.”I rather got the impression that was less of a Kevin Feige problem, and more of an ‘Ike Perlmutter doesn’t want us to have nice things’ problem.
Exactly my impression. Feige and Marvel aren’t idiots. They know that the international market is only going to get bigger, so getting in on the ground floor with more diverse casting is going to help their properties appeal more abroad.
Yes, this. Perlmutter single-handedly blocked Captain Marvel.
Also, in retrospect, I’m not sure where a BW movie would’ve fit in Phase 3.
Side note: If us slobs in the comment section know about Perlmutter and there are multiple film & business news articles about Perlmutter, then why does a writer for the AVClub (who cover Marvel extensively) not know about his caveman business antics?
The byline should explain everything.
Maybe Dr. Strange can team up with Iron Fist and David Carradine
As great as Tilda Swinton is in everything, they should’ve hired an Asian actor, like Emma Stone or Scarlett Johansson.
or Mickey Rooney
“The studio sent me to talk to you, being a former child star myself, and the number one box office draw from 1939 to 1940.” “Wow, spanning two decades!”
Jiminy jillikers!
Credit where credit’s due: they were really smart with how they handled (Fu Manchu derivative) The Mandarin.
Were they? To date, he’s the only major character MCU has completely walked back. Mandarin being Guy Pearce is white-washing, too and if credit is to be given simply because it was “part of a swerve in the story”, then I guess we should also be impressed with the villain in 007 Die Another Day.
What I always struggled with the casting decision was to still have the Ancient One still be in Tibet once they cast Swinton to the role. It would have been such an easy choice to just shift the location to Ireland and base it more on Celtic mysticisim or something like that.Instead we had the script writer argue against ethnic stereotypes while still relying on Oriental Mysticism led by a white woman. It was baffling to be honest.
“It would have been such an easy choice to just shift the location to Ireland and base it more on Celtic mysticisim or something like that.”
100%, but then the angry nerd mob would have had two reasons to be upset instead of one.
I dunno man.
The whitewashing of Asian characters in Hollywood has a long & shameful history, including Mickey Rooney’s disgusting turn in Breakfast At Tiffany’s and kicking Bruce Lee out of Kung Fu. It is to be lamanted, and opposed.
BUT.If you can get Tilda Swinton to play a weird mystical character in your movie, you freakin get her.The original “Ancient One” in Dr Strange was an underwritten cliche and cipher. He had no memorable character traits whatsoever. The character Tilda played was vital and memorable. She’s an enormous improvement over the original; and a huge asset to the movie.I’m not trying to say that no Asian actor chould have been “vital” & “memorable” or a huge asset. But Tilda was a great get, a star, and she was fabulous in the movie. That matters.I can’t join Feige in “regretting” the casting. It’s fine to want to do better with inclusion in the future; but that casting wasn’t a “mistake”.
This.
I’m not exactly certain what you disagreeing with me about here. I wasn’t arguing against casting Swinton into the role, but that if they make that decision, then chance the environment to match the new casting. Hence changing it from Tibet to Ireland.That is at the heart of the problem, even beyond whitewashing the role, as all the defenses about cliche oriental mysticism still remain even with this casting due to them sticking to that location. So either cast an Asian actor and keep it Tibet or change the environment and cast Swinton.
“As long as the actor is awesome, and well-liked, whitewashing is totally cool.”
Yeah, I’m definitely skirting perilously close to that, if not totally over the edge. Tilda Swinton is such a casting coup at that spot; maybe that’s giving me “license” to overlook something important.
But the other half of the equation is that the initial conception of that character is SO weak & cliched. I don’t know how improved it is by casting James Hong or whomever in the role. You just get a different set of criticisms. The role needed a complete re-imagining.
But then it’d be Britwashing instead of Whitewashing!Although there is an bald Irish singer with some acting experience that they could cast instead…
Sssh! Don’t mention the Britwashing! These simple morons can’t even get their heads around the fact that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England are separate countries! (Though if they were going to make The Ancient One a Celt, bloody well go down the OG route and make her Welsh…)
Yeah and Northern Ireland!I always found it funny that all the Irish actresses in US film and TV today end up playing Americans or Brits (and there are a LOT ), and when there is an Irish character like in Alias Grace , its a Canadian playing her (in fairness from what I hear she did a pretty good job on the accent , and thats no faint praise as its almost impossible to get right …cough Wild Mountain Thyme..cough)
Heh, Americans/Canadians playing Irish or Scottish always cracks me up. There’s only been one or two American actors that I can think of that could do a convincing Glaswegian accent. You know what would terrify the everlasting shite out of them?Northern Irish. Shall we go the Derry Girls route? I think we should!TEAM ORLA!!
These simple morons can’t even get their heads around the fact that Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England are separate countries!I mean, England seems to have a hard time understanding that, too, so you can hardly blame the rest of the world.
Mysticism? So you’re saying it should have been Gweneth Paltrow in wrinkle-face? That offends old white women!
“He spent years talking about how much he wanted to make Black Widow and Captain Marvel movies before actually doing it,”Because as we all know, that had absolutely nothing to do with racist, sexist Trump fanboy Ike Perlmutter refusing to let him make those movies, until Disney kicked him out and put Feige in charge.
Expecting context? On G/O Media? Are you new here?
I also disagreed with casting her as the archangel Gabriel in Constantine just because casting her as a fallen angel was too on the nose
What an odd discussion to have in a Men’s Health magazine.
To be fair to Marvel Studios, Scarlett Johansson was already cast as the Black Widow.
The mistake was to not cast her as every each other character as well.
First, let us acknowledge that Tilda absolutely rocks this role, both in Dr. Strange and in her brief scenes in Endgame. And if there is a Force Ghosty role for her down the road, I want her to have it.Second, I do believe they at least thought the matter through and deserve credit for: 1) Changing the gender of the Ancient One 2) Casting a man of color as Mordo instead of generic British guy doing Eastern European 3) Giving Wong much more of a personality.
Third, anyone who seriously expects Disney or any other corporation to piss off China by casting a Tibetian actor should immediately burn 58 percent of their cash and other possessions in solidarity. Fun fact: You can buy things with money.Having said all that, if they decide to make a new Ancient One, they can easily go with an Asian actor.
Yeah, without the Chinese market, they only would have made multiple hundred millions of dollars!
Easy to spend what’s not your money, ain’t it?
Principles and morals be damned, yeah?
mate if i had billions of dollars it would be easy as hell to spend it
If you had billions of dollars you’d be the same as every other billionaire: a greedy evil bastard
fair enough
If I had a billion dollars I’d buy you a monkey.Haven’t you always wanted a monkey?
If I were a billionaire, I’d buy monkeys for people I hated. And I would only buy them monkeys that I hated.
Only if it’s one of the non face eating kinds if you insist on getting me an exotic pet perhaps a Llama of an Emu?
But not a real green dress; that’s cruel.
As far as I’m concerned, the wise old Asian mystic is less a “stereotype” than it is a “trope”. It’s something you see all over Asian film, arts, and literature. Hell, I don’t remember it really being used in Hollywood before the Kung Fu TV series which Bruce Lee developed. After Kung Fu, sure, it would pop up but it seemed like Keye Luke played most of those (and I’m happy he got the work. He deserved it)
Marvel was obviously confused because they kept referencing Fu Manchu. Fu Manchu isn’t old. He is evil and inscrutable and the very definition of the “Yellow Peril” but he isn’t specifically old.
Anyways, they could have either cast a young, hot Asian actor if they were that concerned about it or, otherwise, just give it to James Hong. Dude makes every film better and he likes the work.
“Trope” is absolutely right, because it’s not even just the presence of an old wise master, it’s the whole story arc associated with them. The Old Wise Master arrives in the story to train the Hero, usually in a condensed amount of time, and before the training is complete, the Hero usually has to watch them die at the hands of the Villain or some other evil force. Then motivation is added to avenge the Old Wise Master/fulfill the Old Wise Master’s last wish/honor the Old Wise Master’s legacy to the Hero’s Journey, and this is accomplished by achieving the mastery of skill that evaded the Hero during their training with the Old Wise Master, applied during a final showdown with the Villain.
That sounds like some kind of war, in the stars. Perhaps a Star War?
Exactly- and “wise old mentor” character isn’t exactly unknown in the West. There’s Obi-Wan, Merlin, Gandalf, etc. Before the 70s or so, that guy just was always white and Asian characters were either comic relief or evil
Uh, yeah, it is unknown – at least compared to the East. Merlin’s famous in Western mythology because he’s the rare example of a wise character Western mythology.Obi-Wan…Obi-Wan was wholesale stolen from Eastern mythology like almost everything else in Star Wars, save for the stuff that was stolen from westerns and The Dambusters, because Lucas is a hack. And even then he’s famous for sword fighting, with only occasional glimpses into dispensing wisdom. And everyone knows that…Gandalf is a fighter: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3jpksw/gandalf_was_really_just_fighter_with_int18/
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MentorArchetype I mean there are a lot of Western examples here, many of whom are pretty old- for example “Mentor” is literally named after an old guy that tells Odysseus things. It’s not the most popular trope these days because “old guy tells you to do things” works better in a much more patriarchal, traditional society. Other examples include:Virgil from Dante’s InfernoSean Connery from Highlander Anthony Hopkins in Mask of ZorroHarry Hart from KingsmanJim Malone in The UntouchablesProfessor XShazam the wizard
IE, stuff mostly cooked up in the century or so, when the west became more comfortable with aping mythologies from elsewhere. Human history goes back a fair bit longer than that, and there’s more to culture than pop culture. Most of your examples come from a time when the west was more open to borrowing from eastern culture……and at any rate, most of your examples are action-oriented, not pure thinkers, which is my point. Western mythology tends to place “wisdom” secondary to “action”. See Alexander “untying” the Gordian Knot – his “wisdom” is in taking action, violent action, against what was meant to be a problem requiring thoughtfulness. The idea that wisdom alone is valuable alone is scorned in western culture: characters who are valued alone for their intellect are seen as weak and often an impediment to the true hero: the guy who kicks arse and take names. Think the old scientist who tells the young soldier something is impossible, the priests telling the knight that the action he is to undertake is forbidden and foolhardy. Sean Connery’s Malone and Ramirez are wise, but ultimately combatants. Harry Hart, action spy. Anthony Hopkin’s only passes on the Mask of Zorro because he’s too old and no longer physically able to keep stabbin’ people. Similar for Shazam. In fact, most of your examples, save for Virgil, are has-beens whose wisdom is only valuable in the service of violent action, and when they are no longer able to execute such action, they must give up that wisdom to those who are capable of such. It’s quite clear that wisdom is subordinate to kickin’ butt.The idea that someone could purely devote their life to thought and contemplation and intellect is abhorrent to most western culture – instead, they must be willing to show that they’re willing to take action.
Charlie Chan.
Exactly. But “trope” and “stereotype” have become one in the same, (thanks largely to anyone with a video essay), and the sentiment has now developed that if you can recognize it, it’s automatically “bad.”
Apropos of nothing, I would have loved to have seen Zhang Ziyi in the role.
There’s just no pleasing some people. You fear getting roasted for casting an Asian actor, so instead you get roasted for casting a Caucasian. The right response is to cast based on what’s best for the storyline, and go “Pfffft!!” at the critics.
She’s still great in the role, though, and I’m glad she was cast. “Just tea. With a little bit of honey.” And great delivery for “It’s not about you.”
Tilda is going to have a problem if she can only play her own kind. Now that David Bowie is gone she is the last of the Serpentoids.
(dupe!)
Swinton was fine and it was a different time.Move forward.
Dragged if you do, dragged if you don’t.
I think that Kurt Russel would have been a bigger mistake.
I’m disappointed that they didn’t cast Benedict Cumberbatch as the Ancient One.
If you’re going to white wash something, go the Star Trek route and get the whitest motherfucker on the planet.
It’s not like he was in any other projects at that time.
Hell, Star Trek did a progression. They cast a Mexican actor and darkened his skin to play Khan the first time, and then, as you aptly describe Cumberbatch, cast the whitest motherfucker on the planet the second time.If they have a third go at the character, they’re going to cast an actor who’s clear.
In 196-fucking-7 they managed to cast a Mexican in a non-white role, how the hell did no one get fired for even suggesting that someone not from somewhere in Asia or India be cast as Khan? This isn’t even a matter of “well maybe we can avoid stereotyping by just doing the stereotypical thing and casting a random white person in a non-specific but probably-should-be-Asian role,” this was “LOL CAST A WHITE DUDE AS THIS VERY SPECIFIC NON-WHITE CHARACTER, NO ONE WILL CARE.” May as well have cast Scarlett Johansson as Uhura.
That casting was a perfect damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. They didn’t want anyone Asian because of money (mostly) so they figured “hey, why not a woman? THEY’re trending now!”I have to say – I didn’t really have a problem with Swinton as the Ancient One. But I’m not Asian, or a woman, so it’s not actually for me to say.Also I’m not a sorcerer.
Scott Derrickson appeared on a podcast giving that same argument, calling it a Kobayashi Maru situation. Then he ruined it by saying “The SJWs are going to get mad no matter what.”
He’s not wrong.
I’m a sorcerer, and found their depictions somewhat exaggerated, but generally fair.
Here I go adding my ACTUAL take on the movie – Cumberbatch should have kept his real accent. There’s nothing to say Stephen Strange couldn’t be English, or have grown up in England. I liked the movie fine, but was halfway through before I stopped thinking Hugh Laurie had dubbed Cumberbatch’s dialogue…
Basically, it seems like the best way to convince Feige to keep making
Marvel movies more diverse is to keep yelling at him about it.
See that’s why I don’t give him or Disney/Marvel kudos. He’s a sales pitch/PR man. He and Disney goes where the direction money goes and now see that there’s money in diversity. They’re not ahead of the wave they just try to keep up with it for money. They’re talk about doing the right thing or they believe in diversity is just talk.
Feige generally seems like a genuine guy, so it’s not necessarily fair
to suggest that he’s just saying this now because he wants people to see
Shang-ChiReally? Because I think it’s more than fair, and to go further I would put hard money on him only addressing this because Shang-Chi having an Asian cast basically brings Asian casting to the forefront. If there wasn’t a trailer out and it wasn’t gonna be released until Phase 11 or whenever in the distant future, it wouldn’t have come up.
Fun thought experiment: they kept Swinton as an an ancient Celt, and had Dr Strange journey to Craggy Island for his training.
Repeat the mantra ‘DRINK ! FECK! ARSE! GIRLS!’
ya think!!!!
I for one applaud Marvel for casting a non-binary extraterrestrial vampire in a prominent role.
Feige generally seems like a genuine guy, so it’s not necessarily fair to suggest that he’s just saying this now because he wants people to see Shang-Chi…Oh, for god’s sake. Did the legal department write this sentence? Of course that’s why he’s saying it, and especially why he’s saying it now. Feige may believe every word, but who cares.
Casting Tilda Swinton to play a different version of super god damn racist stereotype character is not a bad move, it’s just a move. Maybe they could have made the character Asian and avoid all the eggshell-lined pitfalls that come with adapting a character that would never be created within the past 20+ years, but we’ll never know. We should separate the films from the source material and critique them for what they do, not what they don’t do.Margaret Cho can fuck off. You can’t act like the monolithic pearl-clutching face of all Asians and then act even more offended when asked to elaborate. And maybe before you start with me, wokescolds, ask me what my ethnicity is.
It wasn’t the best thing to cast Tilda Swinton in this role, and at this point she probably regrets ever doing it for all the chazerai it has caused.That said, quoting Margaret Cho on this without providing any of the context that came after her initial statements (which didn’t necessarily negate them but certainly, um, put them in a different perspective) is a hell of a choice.
Or you know, they could cast someone with actual super powers.
Tilda was one of the best things about that film, plus her appearance in Endgame was dope. Also in regards to BW and CM solo films, if they had made them earlier then they would have had to replace another MCU film, not be an addition, so which one do you take out? It’s easy to say something like Thor 2 but Marvel was continuing already established franchises and remember were only putting out two films a year at that point. BW had a major part in Cap 2 and her spy film aesthetic is so much like Cap’s I feel it benefits more by being the successor to his films rather than playing second fiddle. I’m sorry her fans haven’t gotten her solo film until this year but I have been happy we got more varied style films like GOTG, Doctor Strange, Homecoming, Ragnarok in her place.
I could very well be wrong, but IIRC, there wasn’t any movement on a Black Widow or Captain Marvel movie until Feige was able to cut Ike Perlmutter out of the movie end of things (which is also when Inhumans vanished from the film docket). Given the sort of asshole that Perlmutter is, there’s a nonzero chance he was a sizeable part of the problem.
In title only, I thought Tilda Swinton did a convincing job, and I enjoyed her role.
Man imagine how people’s heads would have spun if they’d have cast a white Asian in the role…
It was just a mistake in casting regardless of white-washing. You know rewriting a script isn’t that difficult, they do it all the time. The character of the Ancient One could have been someone who traveled to Tibet that was taught the mystic arts by the original Ancient One who then passed the torch. Really. It’s that simple.
Feige generally seems like a genuine guy, so it’s not necessarily fair to suggest that he’s just saying this now because he wants people to see Shang-Chi, but he does have a history of not realizing that certain moves to promote inclusivity and representation in his movies would be a good idea until people really push him on them.
Hello, all well-meaning white people. This is us.
I just wanna know what that thing on her ear is.
And there it is. A lot of Marvel apologists playing down something that was never a good idea. Comes across like “It’s okay when I say it’s okay” goalpost-moving bullshit. There’s also a lot of assumptions that casting an Asian would have been “just as bad” (A false equivalency- Representation is never “just as bad” as erasure.) Folks are being presumptive about the politics to justify the decision, when the truth is we’ll never really know. Especially if the character is well done, and based on what was shown, the Ancient One was fine. So even though Tilda was good, Feige understands that championing inclusivity and diversity while also being responsible for a major example of Hollywood white washing, is gross hypocrisy. And I appreciate that he’s acknowledging this. It mustn’t have been easy. Yes, the MCU can make a mistake. Shocking, I know.
He spent years talking about how much he wanted to make Black Widow and Captain Marvel movies before actually doing itCaptain Marvel was on the initial Phase 3 announcement in 2014, & it came out less than a year after the originally projected release date. he still hasn’t gotten around to confirming the all-female team-up movie Monica & Kamala’s presences in CM2 was confirmed at Investor Day last December, & the film’s rebranding as The Marvels was confirmed 2 weeks ago.Sam, I get that you probably get more assignments & more pay if you draw more engagement, but saying things that just aren’t true to bait corrections from the comments is a dirty way to go about it.
So many hand-wringing whiners who won’t let anything slide–even a role where if it was cast with a yellow actor/actress–THEN they’d piss ‘n’ moan how Marvel caved to the stereotypes. Can’t win, so cast anybody–which is what Marvel did.
They could have just said that she was from Mandripoor or some fictional locale, right? But, nooooo, because China and the Chinese Communist Party, the world’s biggest mass-murdering dictatorship.
Im still mad at them casting Mark Ruffalo instead of an actual radioactive, shape-changing, rage monster. Representation, people!
Well, Mel Gibson’s a bit old for the role these days.
If have no problem with a black Heimdall, a female Captain Marvel, a female M (hell, I think it would be a great re-imaging to see a black Bond), a female Prospero, then I see no problem with a female, non-Asian Ancient One. Particularly since Nepal is a place people from everywhere have come to in search of enlightenment for centuries, and the film also features aliens, sorcerers and time travel. Greetings from Taiwan!
I’m asian but I must have a much lower bar, cause I’m just pleased that Shang-Chi isn’t some white dude. I don’t care about the Tilda Swinton thing since being ancient and wise didn’t seem to be asian exclusive thing in the first place anyways.