Neil Gaiman, the guy who created Sandman, defends decision to cast nonbinary and Black actors
Film News Neil Gaiman
It’s been a long road for the live-action adaptation of The Sandman—Neil Gaiman’s sprawling comic series about the mythic gods that control humanity’s various states of unconscious being. Existing outside the bounds of reality and according to Gaiman’s personification, these characters—be it Death, Dream, or Desire—can really look like anything or anyone. That’s part of the beauty of his work.
However, not everyone seems to recognize that. After last week’s massive casting announcement for the upcoming Netflix adaptation, some fans were more annoyed that the personification of Death didn’t resemble the uber-pale version of Tori Amos, who some believed was the inspiration for the character. Just try and have some imagination, fans. But creator Neil Gaiman doesn’t give an F or an S about what you think Sandman should be. He’s spent three decades keeping milquetoast versions of his work off the air.
Responding to one Twitter user’s insinuation that Gaiman sold out by casting a Black actor in the role of Death or a nonbinary person as Desire, Gaiman made it clear that he gives every fuck about his work and zero fucks about what you think, thank you very much. “I give all the fucks about the work,” tweeted Gaiman. “I spent 30 years successfully battling bad movies of Sandman. I give zero fucks about people who don’t understand/ haven’t read Sandman whining about a non-binary Desire or that Death isn’t white enough. Watch the show, make up your minds.”
It’s an unfortunate part of our I.P.-obsessed fandoms that crave devotion to the source material visually (but rarely narratively). Obviously, the idea of Death has no race and the idea of Desire has no gender—in fact, all the members of the Endless (which is what Gaiman called this anthropomorphic gang of cosmic entities) change shape frequently throughout the Sandman books. For example, when Desire first appears in Sandman number 10, they are described as “him-, her-, or itself.” The narrator continues, “Desire has never been satisfied with just one sex, or just one of anything.” It’s right there, people. So it really does make one wonder how Gaiman is selling out by supporting the casting of Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death or Mason Alexander Park as Desire.
Apparently, not every fan recognized Desire’s nonbinary identity. But according to Gaiman, “You’d have to have read the comics to know that. And the shouty people appear to have skipped that step.”
[via EW]
264 Comments
Complaining that Desire is played by a nonbinary person is like complaining that Captain Hook is played by an someone with one hand who wears a hook and talks like a pirate.
I demand an 83-year-old Dustin Hoffman don the black wig and mustache once again, the way J.M. Barrie would have wanted it.
It’ll be too sad without Bob Hoskins playing his husband.
Well, that brought me down from the pixie dust.
I demand Dustin Hoffman play Desire. You know it would be great.
From my dreams to the silver screen – make it happen!
Believe it or not, J.M. Barrie actually wanted Captain Hook played by a woman. Specifically the one who played Mrs. Darling in the same play!(It’s common for Hook to be played by Mr. Darling’s actor).
That’s super interesting, although I’m sure no psychologist would ever be interested in a man’s play about his mother and the villain who gives a young forever-boy a reason to never grow up being the same person underneath the costume.
I understand these people are loud as fuck and have probably been blowing up Gaiman’s Twitter mentions, but it’s hard to imagine the people really pissed off about this make up any significant portion of the actual Sandman fandom.
Oh for sure, being part of that fandom requires at least a middle school reading level.
Shit I cannot star, 69 is perfect for this comment. +1?
Damnit I was going to like your post but it’s at a very nice 69 stars already and it’s just too good to waste.
I actually facepalm Ed when I got to that line in the article.
I’d rather Death look like she did in the comics, but meh. That’s life.
Desire, on the other hand, was non-binary before anyone was using the word non-binary. It’s kind of a character trait.
I used to agree with you, but nowadays if there’s something I love being adapted, I’m fine with the project takes creative risks and not just adapt as close as possible. Gaiman’s work has always been ‘avant-garde’, and I just hope it will continue ruffling feathers. Even if it’s bad, I’ll always have The High Cost of Living.
“Even if it’s bad, I’ll always have The High Cost of Living.”This. Right here.
Most of the time I agree with that sentiment, however Death more than any other character in the series had a look I wanted to see brought to screen. I liken it to a movie drastically changing Spider Man’s costume so that it was yellow and purple and had a cape.
That was my introduction to Gaiman, all those long years ago. I love Howell-Baptiste and I’m really looking forward to this.
Yeah, It’s not something that I keep in the RAM, but it jogged my memory about Desire being androgynous. A nonbinary casting is pretty appropriate. I’m less enthused about the change to Death, but oh well.It’s actually kind of moot anyway, since I’m not particularly excited about a Sandman adaptation in the first place. Good Omens was fine but not more enjoyable than just spending that time re-reading the book, and that’s the adaptation that people seemed to like the best. So I’m guessing that even with dream casting it’s still not going to be more worthwhile than just going back to the comics. Hopefully it gets more people to read the comics, at least.
“Dream casting” heh
Desire being androgynous makes sense for the character, ignoring how they’re presented in the original comics.
Good Omens was fine but not more enjoyable than just spending that time re-reading the book, and that’s the adaptation that people seemed to like the best.The Good Omens adaptation reminded me that Good Omens came out in 1990 when I was 12 and I read it when I was 13. Like, it’s not exactly for kids but it’s very all ages in the degree of edge it puts on an “Abrahamic Realism” apocalypse story…
I think there’s one big hitch in your assessment, and that’s the very real possibility that Terry Pratchett’s work is unadaptable. The Good Omens mini series may only be as decent as it is because of Gaimen.
Yeah I agree with all of this; I understand that representation is important but at the same time Death’s look is an iconic part of 90’s comics culture so it’s a shame we’re not getting that on screen.
Who’s to say we’re not getting that look, just inhabited by Kirby Howell-Baptiste?
Because her being a super pale waify goth is a large part of what made the look iconic as it was so different from traditional depictions of Death. I’m sure that Kirby Howell-Baptiste’s character will also be a non-traditional depiction of Death, which is fine! I have no problem with this casting I just don’t know why we can’t admit that it’s different than how the character was portrayed previously.
“admit it’s different”no one is not admitting that; fuck, however, the people who are attaching value judgment to that.
Surely you realize they’re not making another comic, though, right? It’s a movie now. A movie is a different thing than a comic.
Counterpoint: It’s pretty cool that non-white folks will see themselves reflected in the casting of major characters on the show, and that the creators don’t feel chained to creative decisions that they made 32 years ago.
I just hope they retain Death’s style; it’s about time Black goths got their time in the shade.
Yeah where are they pulling this “change to Death” from? The endless are like white, not white. She’s gonna do great.
Thanks for that I was thinking the same thing as Black Goth
To be I distinctly recall Death taking on different forms when she’s a mortal every 100 years or so. Plus nothing says she can’t still dress like Death.
That, plus, when I think of the Endless, I don’t think “white” as in Caucasian; I think “white” as in “absence of color.” Kinda seems like at least some prosthetic makeup would have to be involved to make any actors look like the characters as they appear on the page.
Such an interesting comment to me, “I’d still prefer a white Death” with no reflection whatsoever. And it’s got stars. Not surprised that is popular sentiment around here. You may feel like you’re stating a harmless preference, but our preferences are inevitably influenced by our society’s long history of white supremacy, particularly in beauty standards.
I mean, you could view it that way, but the Endless were white, as in the absence of color white. It doesn’t translate well to the screen at all, but I dont think dude was taking an actual white supremacy stance. Kinda sounds like you havent read Sandman either, to be honest
The best part is that even a white person would have to be slathered in makeup to look like Death in the comic.
Or because the character is white in the comics.
Yeah, but WHITE not Caucasian.
The character is depicted as at least 3 different races in the comics.
Try reading the WHOLE thing next time, it makes the conversation better.
I did, multiple times. When you see death in the comics when she isn’t interacting with dead people she is white. I couldn’t care less about the color actors race for Death and am fine with who they got. But your argument is pretty garbage.
Death is literally white, not Caucasian. She’s the colour of milk. Whereas actual Caucasian people in the comics are depicted with peachy-pink skin tones. So casting a white actor as Death makes no more sense than casting a black actor, as they’re not going to look like the character in the comics without either a thick coat of makeup or CGI, which you can apply equally to an actor of any ethnicity.
Except she isn’t literally white lol. The is extremely pale but she isn’t pure white.
Death as depicted in ‘The Sound of Her Wings’. Completely white. No human in the comics is depicted with this skin tone.
Bust because the Endless are depicted as much paler than Humans doesn’t mean they are pure white lol. Not once are they described as perfectly white in the co mics.
“Not once are they described as perfectly white”.You do realise comics are a visual medium, right? Description comes via the way they are drawn, and they are drawn with perfectly white skin. For that matter, Death is never described as Caucasian in the text either, though Dream is once described as being as white as the man in the moon.Anyway, people are complaining about Death not matching the “iconic look of the comics”, which, as drawn by pretty much every artist, is chalk white skin. If people want that, they want CGI/body paint, not a white actor.
Yes, they are a visual medium. And drawing someone as pale white in comics means they are going to be drawn perfectly white. That’s how it’s worked in comics. I’m sorry you don’t understand how comics work, I can’t help you with that.
You may feel like you’re stating a harmless preference, but our preferences are inevitably influenced by our society’s long history of white supremacy, particularly in beauty standards.Of course if this had been a post about Ghost in the Shell, and someone had said “I would have preferred a Japanese actor play the Major, but actually Scar Jo looks pretty good on the poster and after all, we are talking about a robot body”……you would have called that white supremacy as well. People’s preferences are inevitably influenced by what they see first and affected by when things change from what they saw first.Also Sandman is a comic in English written by an Englishman in England, which makes it indigenous art, AFAIC.
The issue isn’t racial matching of actor to character, it’s about addressing under-representation. It’s the reason all “that’s racist against white people” or “it’s discriminatory against men” arguments are bollocks.
The ironies are pretty thick with all this anyway: the OP didn’t even say they’d prefer a white Death, they said they’d prefer Death look like she does in the comics “but meh that’s life”. So the OP isn’t even upset about “racist against white people” because they (I think it’s safe to say) do not think of Sandman’s Death as a white person. If Gaiman had only made Death pale blue we wouldn’t have this issue… So lisa_lionheart’s “OMG muh white supremacy” is being directed against a person who only mentioned they’d rather Death look like she does in the comics, for the purpose of pointing out that really it isn’t a big deal. Like… isn’t this essentially ideal behaviour? “I acknowledge my innate biases and remain alert to them, so I can best manage how they affect my actual behaviour and expression…”
Yeah, like…two things can be true here:1. A fan of the series might want to see a visual representation that jibes with what they grew up with.2. That same fan can say “But, meh, I’ll take what I can get.”Big Hulk fan here. If the first Hulk movie had been either NOT Bruce Banner, or a black Bruce Banner, sure, might sting a little. A *little*. I grew up basically AS Bruce Banner, so those emotional ties aren’t nothing.That said, if Ang Lee had cast, like, Tyler Perry as Banner, I’d still have seen it, because that’d be all the Hulk (at that time) that I was going to get.
I loved this analogy. The image that popped into my head was Tyler Perry hulking out into . . . Madea!
“because they (I think it’s safe to say) do not think of Sandman’s Death as a white person”And why is that safe to say? Where did you get this assumption? This is an article about Neil Gaiman having to defend casting a Black actress to play Death. The top comment is a guy going “Yeah I’d still prefer the original Death.” In this context, your assumption seems awfully generous. Even if they’d followed up with “It’s not about whiteness,” I’d be skeptical. Thanks to societal tensions, many of us are socialized to talk about race in dogwhistles and polite euphemisms. It’s not cool to wear your racism on your sleeve anymore – though that top comment came pretty close. As a Black woman, I have often found myself on the receiving end of this kind of vague, polite and easily disguised discrimination. You’re assuming it’s not there, based on no evidence. I saw what I saw in that comment. I honestly don’t even know why I’m replying, I really don’t feel the need to try to convince “reverse racism” trolls that white supremacy exists.
He followed up with meh it’s not about whiteness it’s about being a fan of a comic that came out 30 years ago and having a vision of that character in your head for all that time. He expressed a preference nothing more.
Gaiman is Jewish, and his grandfather immigrated from Eastern Europe first to the Netherlands, then England.Also, different Celtic tribes and the Saxons were the Aboriginal inhabitants of the British Isles, then came the Danish invasions along the Eastern coast, and of course the Normans with William the Conqueror (and that’s just the very, very abridged version that elementary school teaches kids).So shut the fuck up about Europe’s ethnic makeup and history, if you don’t know shit.
You don’t know shit yourself if you think the Saxons are indigenous – they didn’t begin their colonising invasions until after the Romans left (5th century).The Celts are from Europe as well and displaced the various “Beaker People” cultures who were the first come (back?) to the British Isles via the now-lost Doggerland hunting grounds. Earlier than 12000 BC there were no humans in Britain or Ireland because it was covered in ice. (And Ireland wasn’t inhabited by modern humans until 8000 BC).Also every single one of those groups is white so I don’t even know what kind of point you think you’re making. Gaiman is English, he writes in English, his entire cultural context is white from the lands where white people come from. If anything, as a pan-European white Jew he’s even more white than my white-ass Scots-Irish white ass.The suggestion in the OP is that preference for a “white Death” is evidence of “our society” being white supremacist. And I’m saying when a story is written by a white man in a land where white people come from, that’s not white supremacy.
“white from the lands where white people come from”I’ve heard they come from the lands of ice and snow …
The ScarJo Major in GtiS is a terrible counterexample. First of all, lots of people DID call it racist or white-washing when she was cast. Second of all, that casting was even more confusing and wrong-headed than people thought when it was announced because in the movie it turns out the character in the movie WAS Japanese before being rebuilt as cyborg ScarJo, so all arguments that the Major could be Western/white were pointless since the filmmakers decided the character was still Japanese but cast ScarJo anyway. Third, Death in Sandman is not a human being, she may appear in certain human forms but there is no race or national identity tied to the character because they exist outside of that.
The ScarJo Major in GtiS is a terrible counterexample. First of all, lots of people DID call it racist or white-washing when she was cast. Yes. That was my point. I am saying “Scar Jo was a racist choice” was the mainstream opinion, so a hypothetical person saying they thought Scar Jo was actually okay because it’s a robot anyway, would be called a white supremacist by that commenter.The point is that the original original poster wasn’t even defending or insisting on a “white” Death, they posted specifically to say even though they’d rather Death look like she does in the comics, it’s no big deal. And they got called a tool of society’s inherent white-supremacy viz. beauty standards. It was a mad criticism. Third, Death in Sandman is not a human being, she may appear in certain human forms but there is no race or national identity tied to the character because they exist outside of that.Fucking, duh.
Completely spot on and well said. The lack of self-awareness here is pretty disheartening.
“I’d still prefer a white Death”
I can’t find that quote in the OP. Care to point out where it is, asshole?
Death in the comics appears in a bunch of different forms, so I don’t really see how casting a black person is somehow contrary to that.
When Dream meets Martian Manhunter, Dream is transformed into a giant skull of fire, because he’s Lord L’Zoril to the Martians:The viewer changes the viewed.As to Desire, I just figure she’s got whatever’s going to make it a party.
Kirby will be fine. Lots of tv work demonstrating that she can capture Death’s qualities. I don’t denigrate the attachment to Death’s specific comic book appearance, but I am happy to have an actor who has been very good on good shows portraying the character. It’s an interesting (not “bad” or “wrong”) creative decision to depict Desire as nonbinary. That could be perceived as closely associating an identity with a type of sexuality. I don’t think Gaiman is being that reductive at all, but I am more intrigued about the reception to that character in a live action story.
Being nonbinary isn’t a “type of sexuality.”
Being nonbinary isn’t a “type of sexuality.”
And if you look at my post that is not what I said.
“That could be perceived as closely associating an identity with a type of sexuality.”uh, only by people who are fine with being completely fucking wrong about what words mean; genders are not sexualities or even inherently sexual, and sex is not the only thing Desire relates to. so it could be perceived the way you mentioned, but it’d be a baseless and fucked-in-the-head perception.
Yes, and fortunately we live in a time and a place where fucked and baseless perceptions never happen.
“people might be wrong about it” isn’t a reason to not do something, it’s an opportunity to teach and correct. see also: loser-ass members of my queer community who want to scrub pride events of the leather and drag that fought for their pride events in the first place, whose awful takes have presented those of us who know our own history with ample opportunity to address and correct those garbage takes while informing society more broadly of our less visible history.
I’m not suggesting at all that Desire should not be played by a nonbinary person. I am suggesting that when Gaiman describes a nonbinary character in this way — “Desire has never been satisfied with just one sex, or just one of anything.”— its going to provoke some kind of conversation about what he is saying about nonbinary identity. Again, not bad or wrong, as I noted in my original post, just interesting.
Any proof she won’t? And have you seen anything with her in it, ‘cause she’s gonna nail this fucking role.
Last time I checked, Black people could be goths?
“Last time I checked, Black people could be goths?”
Who are you asking?
I thought Death was explicitly based on Cinamon Hadley, so yeah it would make a bit more sense, but also…I don’t care. There’s an East Asian Death at one point.
https://post-punk.com/cinamon-hadley-the-inspiration-for-neil-gaimans-death-has-passed-away/
For me the big thing about the Death casting is that Kirby Howell Baptiste showed herself fully capable of handling both the matter-of-fact grimness and the upbeat optimism the role requires in her The Good Place role. She’s pitch-perfect for the role.
It’s hard to judge without seeing how it turns out, but Death’s look was absolutely iconic IMO. It’d be like a Star Wars reboot (god forbid) where Luke is totally bald. No offense to the lady they casted, but Helena Bonham Carter was conceived precisely to play that role.
‘I’d rather Death look like she did in the comics, but meh. That’s life.’This just took a strangely philosophical turn
Exactly.
Exactly. And honestly, it’s just because I want the adaptation to match the ‘movie’ that appeared in my mind when I read the comics. In that movie Death was a cute goth girl with skin as pale as bleached bone, and hair as dark as the space between the stars. But obviously that’s not all Death can be, the comics made that very clear. Whether this new incarnation of Death will be as enjoyable or not, has much more to do with the actor’s performance over the colour of their skin. I’m sure they’ll inspire all kinds of people to become oddly enamored of Death.I don’t get what people are on about with Desire. Did they read the comics? They were not subtle about the character’s nature. One can be disappointed, without rejecting the premise that inspired their disappointment, or acting hateful. It appears a great many people have forgotten that.
The important thing is that Tori Amos plays Delirium.
No?
Rats.
Edit: just realized she is referenced in the article. I always understood Delirium to be modeled after Tori, not Death. But looking into it, it seems like neither is true.
I just came here to say that, Death looks nothing like Tori as anyone who’d even seen a single image of the character would know, but Delirium was clearly based on her.
Death is like a smilier Joan Jett. Or maybe old-school Ann Wilson.
No, wait! 1995 Bjork.
Death’s look was actually inspired by Cinnamon Hadley, who died of cancer in 2018. And I get it, people were attached to the look, but Kirby Howell-Baptiste isn’t taking anything away from that.
Photos and all at the site below.“Death is the only major character whose visuals didn’t spring from me; that credit goes to Mike Dringenberg. In my original Sandman outline, I suggested Death look like rock star Nico in 1968, with the perfect cheekbones and perfect face she has on the cover of her Chelsea Girl album.But Mike Dringenberg had his own ideas, so he sent me a drawing based on a woman he knew named Cinamon Hadley — the drawing that was later printed in Sandman 11 — and I looked at it and had the immediate reaction of, “Wow. That’s really cool.” Later that day, Dave McKean and I went to dinner in Chelsea at the My Old Dutch Pancake House and the waitress who served us was a kind of vision. She was American, had long black hair, was dressed entirely in black — black jeans, T-shirt, etc. — and wore a big silver ankh on a silver necklace. And she looked exactly like Mike Dringenberg’s drawing of Death.”-Neil Gaimanhttps://post-punk.com/cinamon-hadley-the-inspiration-for-neil-gaimans-death-has-passed-away/
After watching a few of her performances, I’m completely confident she can nail the tone of the character regardless of whatever personal issues ‘fans’ have with the fact they didn’t cast a ‘90s goth teenager in the show.
It is Delirium, not Death that was inspired by Tori Amos, but she was not modeled after her as Delirium the character was created before Neil met Tori. He has said however that they (Delirium and Tori) steal shamelessly from each other.
I love the British slang word “shouty” and wish we used it more here in the States.
You gotta bring it, Dirts!
But this is America! SHOUTY’S ASSUMED.
That is so, so true. There is no need for such a word in America because it wouldn’t provide any differentiation.Sadly, this cultural dichotomy has on occasion led to tragic consequences.https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard
Didn’t the agent of chaos character from Season of Mists (I forget her name offhand – Jemmy, something like that?) delightedly exclaim something about the shouty man at one point? Maybe when Cain killed Abel as part of the evening’s entertainment?
Right. Shivering Jemmy, a Lord of Chaos in the form of a little girl called Abel “Mr. Shouty” when her screamed as Cain was killing him
Eh, I don’t. Gaiman seems to have his heart in the right place, but he’s so self consciously and affectively the “gentle writer guy”, I want to shove him in a locker and unravel his Strawberry Switchblade tapes. This is definitely one of those things that’s a “me” problem, though.
Yes he does seem the type!One of my more left field 7″ purchases.
Leave it out you berk.
The thing I will never understand how people get so upset about changing something from the original IP; you still have the original. It remains unchanged, and you can just stay with it. Just because you liked a thing doesn’t mean you own it and that it owes your opinion some kind of fealty. You can keep liking it and let others like the new version you don’t. Is this a hard concept?
Why would you have to defend that? Isn’t that like the hippest thing you can do these days?
Ok it’s “hip” but it’s also “giving minorities major roles and representation they’ve been denied since TV and movies were invented”.
“Defending” in this case meaning “calling racist idiots racist idiots”, which seems more like pure good fun to do than actual defending.
Because something can get good press from progressive writers, and also unrelenting bile from reactionary assholes. In fact, the former pretty much guarantees the latter.
Not everyone gets what they want. If we are to believe that Peter Murphy and Tori Amos inspired Dream and Death, at least we can squint and see it in the original comics. The casting of Desire, however seems absolutely spot on.
The Downeys scoff. They’re casting an actual human animal hybrid for Sweet Tooth. Well, at least according to Germain Lussier at iO9:Christian Convery, who is so natural in the role you’ll forget he’s not completely human
If we learned anything from the Watchmen TV show, it’s that there are a lot of people who don’t have a clue what their “favorite comic” was actually about. I can’t wait for this show.
I don’t know. I am pretty sure Watchman is about how great it is to be a sociopathic nihilist or a slightly different version of a sociopathic nihilist.
The Watchmen show gets messy though since even though I loved it, it is something pretty much explicitly done without the blessing of one of the creators. It still managed to thematically follow the original book while diverging and making its own points but I can’t tell to what degree I should allow that to impact how I feel about these adaptations or expansions. (Like Ed Brubaker reminding people how little fiscal honoring he gets from Winter Soldier stuff vs. JK Rowling’s variable levels of involvement in HP world stuff and how her personal views can’t help but sneak into how I perceive the franchise.)Or sticking with Gaiman stuff, I actually forget whether he opined in public about some of the American Gods drama and creative choices— but a lot of what Bryan Fuller and Michael Green brought to the table were what I enjoyed about the first season.
Gaiman’s pretty famous for being directly involved in his adaptations, Good Omens is a prime example but American Gods heavily involved him to the point that he’s written a few episodes, even passed Fuller and Green’s involvement. AG’s problem is the production company more than anything else
“Or sticking with Gaiman stuff, I actually forget whether he opined in public about some of the American Gods drama and creative choices— but a lot of what Bryan Fuller and Michael Green brought to the table were what I enjoyed about the first season.”
It’s never (to the best of my knowledge) been clear but, aside from the budget stuff, apparently one reason Fuller (and presumably Green) was out after season 1 was continued disagreements with Gaiman and Gaiman creatively became more involved in season 2. Which… doesn’t particularly well (and Gaiman fanatics who like to claim his works are only and always best when he’s at his most creatively involved, like to not mention that).
I’m glad Gaiman is involved and since a Sandman screen adaptation seemed inevitable, this seems like giving it a better shot than any of the previous leaked scripts and concepts (like that great Sandman as Freddie Kreuger one). Showrunner Allan Heinberg’s resume makes it hard for me to really get a grasp of what his work will entail—his highest profile work seems to be on the Wonder Woman film and working on various primetime soapy shows (Party of Five, creative consultant on Grey’s). But I didn’t like Good Omens nearly as much as most fans, so I’m OK with being a more faithful in tone than to the letter adaptation.
I just remembered I haven’t finished Good Omens but yeah, I likewise enjoyed it enough but for whatever reason its tone and style just consistently seemed cheap to me. Granted a lot of it was still very close to either the book or at least its spirit, and I thought a lot of the casting choices seemed pretty spot on yet…
I can’t tell to what degree I should allow that to impact how I feel about these adaptations or expansions. (Like Ed Brubaker reminding people how little fiscal honoring he gets from Winter Soldier stuffIMO it’s completely acceptable to enjoy something like Winter Soldier while being upset that the parent company didn’t compensate the creator.
Their handling of Doctor Manhattan was kind of weird. I think that was the main thing I think they missed the boat on. With it being implied that Angela gets Manhattan’s powers at the end, pardon my use of a cliche but it seems like more a curse than a gift.
There’s always been an undercurrent in Watchmen that Dr. Manhattan is kind of an uncreative donkey. It’s the most elegant explanation for how a mere mortal like Ozymandias is still able to surprise him. There’s a dire moral conversation about whether anyone should have Dr. Manhattan’s powers, sure, but there’s also a fun comic-booky conversation about whether somebody different – like, say, Ozymandias – might leverage those powers more effectively (setting aside all morality.)I think it’d be hilarious – though a bit of a narrative dead end – for somebody else to get Dr. Manhattan’s powers and just absolutely crush it.At this point, it would be something of a radical artistic and philosophical statement to declare that a sufficiently competent god could actually make everything totally awesome.
Absolutely. Being God in the Watchmen universe is a poisoned chalice: humans have, or at least get to believe they have, free will. God is a clockwork automaton, trapped in his or her own continuity. Angela should have known better.
I’m hopeful, But Sandman was mostly a very comic-bound, beautiful mess.
Psst. The TV show wasn’t about the same thing the comic was about.
In fairness, the movie wasn’t either.
Do you mean the show itself or people’s reaction to it?
Crazy. Next you’re going to tell me that George RR Martin isn’t my bitch.
But who will play the Death of Rats? Oh, this isn’t a Discworld thing?My bad…
Joke’s aside, idk how the Death of Rats can even be done on TV. His entire “bit” is a text-based gag.
I’ve always seen him as likely having to be done CGI.He’s (It’s?) a more concrete character the later the series goes. Usually as an adjunct to Susan, but still. Disney’s done a lot of character work with a lot less.
I’m specifically talking about how it “speaks”.
Ah, yes. True that. Also a problem with pretty much any of the “Death” storyline characters – mostly defined in their speaking by italicized or capitalized etc.At least Death of Rats frequently just sniggers. I keep hearing the old Muttley character from… er… Wacky Racers? Can’t remember if that’s the parody or the actual thing. Or Stop That Pigeon, think that was the same character.Some day, there’ll be a decent Harry Potter sized budget and a good Discworld series. I have faith.
I think a proper Discworld franchise would have to be MCU-scale, honestly.Cherry-picking individual books loses out on the gradual development of the world over time, which is part of the series’ charm; to really do it justice they’d need to go all-in and plan out 30-40 films.
I’d be happy with a strictly Sam Vimes Nightwatch series of films…DONE RIGHT mind you.
Disney’s done a lot of character work with a lot less.Case in point: May I introduce you to Heihei the chicken?
He is severely limited in Hogfather. They don’t even try to explain why he is needed or that he and Susan have a history at that point. The raven appears but not as a translator.
I guess if you established a clear voice-modulation sound for Death, and then applied the same to a ‘squeak’ noise, that might just about translate it?
I think they could maybe get some humorous milage out of combining normal squeaky rat noises with subtitles that say “SQUEAK. SQUEAK.” (Actually, this is weirdly similar to the squirrel language gag in Emperor’s New Groove). But it’s not perfect, of course, as the parallelism to Death’s textual capitalization is a big part of what makes it funny. And there’s an established tradition of simply making it “sound” like Death is speaking in all caps through poised, stentorian diction….
Who fucking cares what Neil Gaiman thinks? We DEMAND Zach Snyder make a shot-for-panel adaptation with at least 37% slow motion set to Hallelujah. #SnyderMan>Sandman
Sure, but only if he agrees to misinterpret the important bits because he understands gods and their godnessness but human confuse and bore him!
And he makes the entire emotional arc about daddy issues.
I demand Joel Schumacher gets brought back to life and we make a god awful version of it. And then like his Batman’s people will somehow pretend it’s good 20 years from now.
I’m not sure if good is the right word, but I’d much rather rewatch Batman and Robin than The Dark Knight Rises. It’s at least bad in an entertaining way.
I can agree to that, but not that it’s in anyway good. Funny bad is understandable.
I agree with the first 9 words of your post. Boo to the rest. BOOOOOOO!
We’re not pretending. We’re right.
TIL that Joel Schumacher died 🙁
I want DAVID LYNCH.
In David Lynch’s version everyone is played by capuchins. He only works in monkey now.
I WOULD WATCH THAT.
And rabbits
Everyone, have a great day!
I think he’d at least change the song to be Mr. Sandman.
Can’t wait to see Johanna C and Death leap from the Deathcopter to fight a prison riot in slo mo!!
One thing genuinely confuses me about Snyder. He has the face and demeanor of a man who only watches money-shot compilations because porn takes too long, yet he can sit through hundreds of minutes’ worth of Zach Snyder movies. How?
Narcissism?
This guy sure lives rent free in you people’s heads doesn’t he?
And btw, Snyder fans are way less anal about “respecting the source material” than most. You’re more likely to find that among the crowd that whines about Superman not having a spit curl or wearing his underwear on the outside.
And a #buttholecut. Always a #buttholecut.
I’ll be Gaiman persuaded a lot of people who were complaining about the casting on Twitter.
Interestingly, the human version of Matthew from Swamp Thing was played by a black guy in the TV show from 2019.
DC’s relationship with Vertigo continuity wise has always been weird. Like, there’s a miniseries published by DC called Stanley and His Monster, a sort of riff on Calvin and Hobbs, which takes place after the events Season of Mists. The titular monster is a demon who was banished from Hell for being too nice and Remiel and Duma send his ex-girlfriend to bring him back because nobody bothered to tell them that he was banished.And Morpheus technically cameos but he’s wearing the Golden Age Sandman outfit. But he’s clearly supposed to be Morpheus by his speach bubbles.
But remember Vertigo wasn’t created until 1993. I *think* Seasons of Mist was 91-92 when Sandman (and Hellblazer, etc, etc) were still under DC and there was less of a problem with if they were in the same universe or not.
Yeah that’s the one decision I’m not happy about. Oswalt’s great and I get that he gets first dibs on snarky comic book characters nowadays and I also get that Gaiman doesn’t care what I think but Oswalt can only play himself so I’m just going to see MODOK and Remy the rat.
Kinda impressed that he actually takes the time to engage with this stuff, when he could simply say “Fuck you. It’s my story and I cast whoever the fuck I want.”
Isn’t that what he did?
Death wasn’t drawn to resemble Tori Amos, for fuck’s sake, she looks nothing like that. DELIRIUM was drawn to resemble Amos, but only by one of the many artists to have contributed to the book.
I spent 30 years successfully battling bad movies of Sandman. I will wait until I see the show to determine if you understand what is good and bad, Mr. Gaiman, especially after the trainwreck that was American Gods, which you were pretty involved in.
Yeah, Stephen King spent ages telling us how much he hated Kubrick’s version of The Shining and eventually he got to be involved in his own adaptation.
And that’s when we learned that just because a creator approves, doesn’t mean it’s going to be good.
Sure, it’s no Kubrick Shining. But it’s actually reasonably faithful to the book so Stanley stans can get bent. Go jerk off to 2001 or Clockwork Orange or whatever.
So you DIDN’T like the TV Shining with Steven Weber??
Shame on you! Maximun Overdrive is a joy! A chaotic, grotesque, cocaine fever dreamy joy!Seriously, I love that movie.
You mean you weren’t convinced by the aesthetic superiority on display in Stardust?
Wasn’t Stardust actually a film Gaiman wasn’t particularly involved in? (I liked it—for what it’s worth).
To be fair, the scripts we’ve had for Sandman movies that nearly got made (Morpheus as Freddie Kreuger in a hospital!) mean that even if this is terrible, it probably will be better than what coulda been.
The (fairly extensive) Wikipedia summary makes it sound like Gaiman was relatively involved, especially in killing one or two earlier versions of it he didn’t like. The movie had it’s charms, but wasn’t really to my taste.
I admit, I was completely biased by reading this Vanity Fair article which (I think) was trying to say maybe Gaiman shouldn’t so involved in his works. But even they admit they don’t really know:
“Stardust, the story of a young, adventurous man and the grumpy
fallen star who loves him, is such a loose adaptation of Gaiman’s book
that it borders on a reimagining. The intent from screenwriter Jane Goldman and director Matthew Vaughn was clearly to try to fashion a Princess Bride–esque
classic for a new generation. They fell somewhat short, but the result
is still quite fun. It’s worth noting that while Gaiman describes
visiting with Goldman and Vaughn as they worked on the script and
giving his input on adaptive changes, he did not, ultimately have a
screenplay credit, so it is unclear whether he had final say.”
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/04/american-gods-cancelled-sandman
How about just a shot for shot remake of Awakenings, except intersplice it with additional scenes of Sandman’s imprisonment and escape by Burgess.
I’m not sure what drew that idea out of your head, but I’m game!
Let’s just distract all of these people by telling them that Red from “Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption” wasn’t black. Incidentally I’ve always loved the little joke when Andy asks him why they call him “Red” and he says “maybe it’s cuase I’m Irish”. It’s the perfect little nod to those who have read the novella and doesn’t beat you over the head with the reference.
And Morgan Freeman’s little smile when he says that is perfect.
I think we can all agree that Morgan Freeman is awesome.
OK, a few things. First, there is no reason I can understand to think that Death’s appearance was inspired by Tori Amos. I’ve spent a lot of time looking at pictures of Tori…I mean, A LOT OF TIME…and she doesn’t resemble Death in any way other than being “a woman.” Death always reminded me more of Chrissy Hynde or Joan Jett. Maybe I’ve missed something, so I’ll have to spend more time tonight doing research by looking at more pictures of Tori from, let’s say, 1996 or so. It’s a tough job, but somebody has to do it.Secondly, the Endless are not people. They are beings which rival gods, which span all of reality, and they can look however they hell they want to. We see Dream as an African man during his interactions with Nada. We see Death appear as an Asian girl during her time as a human. Delirium changes her appearance between frames. Desire looks like whatever it wants you to want. Death will be the last sentient being in the Universe, the last living organism. Becoming Black would require an iota of her attention.
We see Dream as a goddamn cat. Now that’s the casting I want to see for the show!
Dream Wolf is my favorite (from Dream Hunters spin-off).
Have you already forgotten the uncanny valley hellscape that was Cats!?
Cast Dame Judi Dench but exactly how she looked in Cats as Dream you cowards (if only for one scene)!
If the show runs long enough,you probably will. 😀
Yeah, I think maybe there’s confusion (whether in the article or in people’s heads looking back) on the Tori Amos thing – if someone claims that Delirium’s look was based on 90s Tori Amos, that’s entirely reasonable. When someone says it of Death, it’s a reasonable question whether they’ve ever actually seen either party.
It was Delirium, not Death.
Yes, I agree, which is why I said that.
Yeah. I think Gaiman has basically said that Delirium’s look started out as being based on his friend Kathy Acker, then transitioned into a combination of Tori Amos and Jill Thompson.
Yes, you can see a change between Season of Mists and Brief Lives. Delirium goes from depressive to a more extroverted childish personality, as well.
It’s always been Delirium.Neil says hi, by the way.
I think people have that idea from the cover of some of the graphic novels? All I remember is I was into tori amos and collected comics in the 90s and not once did i ever thing Death looked like Tori Amos. But mayyybe if all you had this graphic novel you’d think that (maybe)
Dream visits Martian Manhunter at one point and apparently appears as the real form of his species.
Now let’s hope they won’t use heavy makeup for the actors when they appear in different aspects… *shivers from recollection of Cloud Atlas*DISCLAIMER: I do not mind the idea of Cloud Atlas (reincarnation/tropes appearing across history in different forms) but the execution was kind of… wanting.
That does lead me to wonder how they’re going to handle Despair. Doing it by prosthetics would be a real challenge, especially if they want her to indulge in her habit of tearing at her own face with her ring. Going fully CG would probably look terrible depending on the budget.
Well… Netflix money. I dunno. I mean, part of me really wants to see this but also, part of me thinks with all the characters in this some of it could look really iffy. Like, do I want to see The Corinthian “eating” eyeballs in weird looking CGI?I just wish more people read the comics. Nothing on screen can beat that original run.
Why would that be a challenge? Tearing yourself with hooks makeup effects aren’t exactly a new thing.
I still liked it better than the book.
Cinnamon Hadley was the artist inspiration for Death, for what it’s worth (yes, it’s been confirmed). No one as well known as Tori.
https://post-punk.com/cinamon-hadley-the-inspiration-for-neil-gaimans-death-has-passed-away/
“
“Death is the only major character whose visuals didn’t spring from me; that credit goes to Mike Dringenberg.
In my original Sandman outline, I suggested Death look like rock star
Nico in 1968, with the perfect cheekbones and perfect face she has on
the cover of her Chelsea Girl album.But Mike
Dringenberg had his own ideas, so he sent me a drawing based on a woman
he knew named Cinamon Hadley — the drawing that was later printed in
Sandman 11 — and I looked at it and had the immediate reaction of, “Wow.
That’s really cool.” Later that day, Dave McKean and I went to dinner
in Chelsea at the My Old Dutch Pancake House and the waitress who served
us was a kind of vision. She was American, had long black hair, was
dressed entirely in black — black jeans, T-shirt, etc. — and wore a big
silver ankh on a silver necklace. And she looked exactly like Mike
Dringenberg’s drawing of Death.”-Neil Gaiman
I always thought it was Cinamon Hadley.
https://post-punk.com/cinamon-hadley-the-inspiration-for-neil-gaimans-death-has-passed-away/(I should have read the other comments first! Sorry!)
Right, I was thinking influences that were more well-known. I suspect most people had no idea who Cinnamon was (myself included, other than a name I remember from an interview a long time back). I should have been more clear.
Oh yeah no worries, and TBH I only found out about her from this article, so….
Death is the last living organism?? Mind blown.
Tori Amos inspired Delirium, not Death.
The writer of the article got it wrong. Tori inspired Delirium. https://www.cbr.com/sandman-the-endless-facts/
My understanding about Death as originally written was that Amos was the inspiration for Death’s personality, but the look was based on another woman (https://post-punk.com/cinamon-hadley-the-inspiration-for-neil-gaimans-death-has-passed-away/). However, I’ve never read super extensively on this subject – mostly just gleaned information from things others have said.
I have also heard that Amos may have actually had a stronger influence on Delirium. (The look certainly matches better.)
Death will be the last sentient being in the Universe, the last living organism.I really need to read Sandman.
Well, “living” is probably not the best term. “Existing,” maybe? “Manifesting”? Language isn’t completely capable of describing what she is (and what her siblings are).
I think I read somewhere that Joan Jett was one of the inspirations. But really, Gaiman must’ve met a young Helena Bonham Carter when he wrote that story.
“I’ve spent a lot of time looking at pictures of Tori…I mean, A LOT OF TIME”You, too, huh?
Death wasn’t inspired by Tori Amos, that would be Delirium. Death’s inspiration was Cinamon Hadley. I think people just keep mixing it up. Drives me crazy.
“First, there is no reason I can understand to think that Death’s appearance was inspired by Tori Amos. I’ve spent a lot of time looking at pictures of Tori…I mean, A LOT OF TIME…and she doesn’t resemble Death in any way other than being “a woman.””
Here’s one: Dave McKean USED PICTURES OF TORI AMOS AS THE LITERAL, ACTUAL, PHYSICAL BASIS FOR HIS DEATH ART.
As in, he used an actual photograph pasted to the canvas of the Death covers he painted.
I have to assume that there was at least 100% overlap between fans of Tori Amos and Sandman in the 90s, so it was inevitable that they’d find points of similarity between the two. Sort of like how “Silent All These Years” is obviously a reference to [insert Sandman reference here, since I only know the series by reputation].
The writer must be confusing multiple stories. Tori Amos was (in part) an inspiration for Delirium. I have never once heard mention of her being inspiration for Death, and I have read a LOT of Sandman supplemental material, interviews, etc. etc. Then there is the fact that no one knew who Tori Amos was when Death made her debut. It’s already been stated by others, but Mike Dringenberg reportedly based Death’s look on Cinamon Hadley.
Tori Amos was an inspiration for some of Delirium’s dialogue, altho Gaiman created the character before he met her. Cinamon Hadley (RIP) was the inspiration for the character design of Death, but I don’t even know if Gaiman had anything to do with it; I believe it was Mike Dringenberg who thought she was the embodiment of how Death would look.
I think (the yet to be cast) Delirium was the one partially inspired by Tori Amos?
I do like that Tori Amos, but I have no other objection. If you do not like this version, just wait five years for it to be rebooted, and you may get what you were picturing.
Fine but will Dream still look like Robert Smith?
I’ll just never understand people, because Mason Alexander Park looks exactly like I’d expect Desire to be cast.
I had never heard of them so I looked them up online, and holy shit, they look like they just stepped out of the page. It’s almost scary how dead-on their look is.
“It’s an unfortunate part of our I.P.-obsessed fandoms that crave devotion to the source material visually (but rarely narratively).”Wtf is this bs?!Obsessed fans are almost always slaves to visual and narrative purity.
I don’t know how to really encapsulate this in a concise post, but people need to get over their preconceived notions of what a cast should and shouldn’t look like with works of fiction.Like a few months ago, there was the whole controversy where Regé-Jean Page wasn’t considered for the Krypton show because Superman couldn’t have a black grandfather. Like fucking what? Superman is an alien who can fly, shoot lasers from his eyes when he’s not seeing through materials, freeze shit with his breath, has super strength, etc, etc. It’s feasible all of those things are possible but not feasible his alien grandfather could be black? In this specific case, Gaiman created the characters and people are still bitching when he cast people he thinks represent those characters best. It’s insanity to me.
I have seen fans complain that some actors portraying Superman are not muscular enough. I guess without bulging muscles it’s not convincing that you can lift a battleship.I remember fans complaining that the TV version of Harry Dresden carried a hockey stick and drove a Jeep instead of carrying a staff and driving a Beetle. Way to focus on the essentials.And I remember fans complaining that Daniel Craig had blond hair, and who could imagine a blond James Bond?I think STFU may be the most efficient answer.
Right? Like please explain to me how Kryptonian genetics work with respect to skin pigmentation. 🙄
“I like black KryptonITE, not black KryptoniANS!”-some fan, probably
The complaints would come regardless of how he chose to cast the roles.
I was a teenager reading these comics so I have pretty strong feelings about the versions in my head, but as you say, things can be different. And also, to go even further than the Kryptonian example, most of these characters aren’t people! They look like whatever. I think they should all have been cats, but I’m not complaining.
who is playing delirium? I’m hoping it’s CGI? maybe a psychedelic care bear?
I’ll admit that I’m totally attached to the version of Death from the comics. I have a tattoo of her for gods’ sake! However, and here’s a crucial thing that many idiots either don’t understand about the character (because they never actually read the comic) or just don’t give a shit about: Death is not human. She’s a godlike entity who can appear as whatever the fuck she wants! Furthermore, the comic version of Death still exists! This adaptation takes away precisely nothing from that.
The casting for Desire is absolutely spot on though. I couldn’t have imagined a better choice.
I’m a bit curious about how they’re going to handle Despair. Obviously they’re going to have to ugly the actress up a little, but will she still always be naked? And the constant self-harm is something I really can’t see going over well with a general audience.
Death was never white, is the thing. The comic makes very clear that just because she’s drawn white doesn’t mean everyone sees her that way when she appears. (Prologue to SoM: “and we perceive but aspects of the Endless, as we see the light glinting from one tiny facet of some huge and flawlessly cut precious stone.”)Also saw people complaining that Death is supposed to be white. Not Caucasian, but stark corpse-white. At one point Marco Polo asks Dream whether he’s always so pale, and he says “that depends on who’s watching.” The series could not be clearer.
Having to defend this says more about the fans then Neil Gaiman. Shame he even needs to do this.
I’m guessing a lot of the “fans” crying out about this are actually just bigots who may never have actually read Sandman and are using this as a way to push back against what they perceive as “forced diversity.”I can see why actual fans with racism issues they don’t want to acknowledge might be upset about the casting of Death. (I’d also argue they need to confront those issues because this is obviously more about them than the show.) But why anyone WHO ACTUALLY READ AND LIKED SANDMAN would be upset at a non-binary actor being cast as Desire is beyond me. The ONLY appropriate casting choice for Desire would be a non-binary/genderfluid actor.
We both know that isn’t a guess. The majority are people looking for an axe to grind with some being as you say, fans with some unhealthy racial hang ups.
I think Gaiman’s substantially over-crediting the human race. We have a remarkable ability to experience things, and just not get it.On a separate note, I think the majority of the butthurt here is pretty much the same as the Triss butthurt from The Witcher TV series:“Original character look gave me boners. New character look doesn’t. Give me more boners with something very much the same as the original character. I want my boners.”I can only think of a few arenas where that complaint ought to hold any serious merit, but it is substantially less disgusting than some of the imputed alternatives. To borrow a line from Homer Simpson: “just because I don’t care doesn’t mean I don’t understand.”I think a lot of boner-focused people can understand just fine that these characters don’t need to appear one specific way for any artistic reason, but they don’t care. They want their boners.
Requiring any creative person to match my fan’s or critic’s – even in the positive sense – preconceptions of what their work was, is or should be is exactly zero.The same goes for any requirements that athlete’s jump through hoops or “speak” to entertain us fans, really.I can withhold my attention and money – and more actively object if they do harm to others (e.g. publicly vote Republican or something equally inexcusable, like promoting anti-Vaxx sentiments while chopping off cats’ tails) – but they owe me nothing different from any other person.NG puts the case here simply and sharply, but very gently as well. Kudos.
I’m really happy that this is getting made and absolutely no notes on the casting, but I’m beginning to think that adapting this is cursed and I’ll believe it’s done when I see it – because there’s been so many false starts and hopes that were dashed.Read the comics (original run only, cannot speak for the rest). Yes the main character can be annoyingly solipsistic and at times you can feel that it’s in love with its own cleverness, but it is also one of the best pieces of literature that I’ve read. I’d say it’s unadaptable (and seemingly the universe is conspiring to make it so) but that apparently doesn’t mean anything nowadays.
I’ve been saying for 30 years that Sandman is unfilmable, and I have seen nothing to change my view. But how can I begrudge the guy a paycheck?
I always thought American God’s was unfilmable…and I was right 🙂
oy, always with the shouty people.
I’m pissed off because he didn’t cast a dead person as Death.
Tori Amos was Delirium
Gaiman’sDesire might be the single most nonbinary thing ever depicted in media, what with existing everywhere on the spectrum of masculine to feminine depending on their feelings at the time.Gaiman’s Death is white, but not like “pinkish flesh tones” that we’ve as a society decided to call “white” but like the color of snow or cumulus clouds. She also canonically looks like different people at different times; I doubt they’re going to go for the high contrast thing with Dream either. It’s definitely more important to nail the performance than the look when it comes to Death of the Endless anyway.
“You’d have to have read the comics to know that. And the shouty people appear to have skipped that step.”FUCK YEAH, Gaiman.
Neither here nor there, but you do have to appreciate the sheer intentional perverseness of casting Jenna Coleman in your adaptation of Sandman, but not casting her as Death.Kirby Howell-Baptiste will be fine, I’m sure.
Hmm. Hadn’t thought of that. Now, being denied a Jenna Coleman Death, I just have to remember that not everything is for me.
I’m sure these folks just care fucking OODLES about the actual narrative of the story…Hell, wait until they find out that the “alpha male” of the group fucked off to become a bad artist. 😀
Since it keeps coming up in the comments, here’s Cinamon Hadley (note spelling of first name; that’s what Google says it is), the visual inspiration for Death:
So it’s OK now for actors to portray characters that don’t resemble their fictional couterparts? If Woody Harrelson wants to play Luke Cage or Wesley Snipes wants to be James Bond, I see nothing wrong with that.
I’m disappointed that Kat Dennings was not cast as Death, but only because I’d like to see Kat Dennings cast in things that I would actually watch.
Well, there is always the audible original adapatation that has Kat as Death but I’m sure you already knew that.
It’s the reason I had hopes for them casting her.
Delirium is the Endless who was based on Tori Amos, but go off, as the kids say.
I’m all for nonbinary Desire. They were already essentially NB before it was a more well-known thing, and ‘they’ is less clunky than ‘brother-sister’. Dream has been a black man and a cat before in the series, so why can’t Death be black? The Endless predate the earth itself, they have no canon set ethnicity.
I quit watching American Gods, but it had nothing to do with Gaiman himself. It just felt like the cast fell apart after Fuller left, and some of the actors never liked each other. It wasn’t something he could control.
I don’t remember hearing that actors on American Gods disliked each other. Gaiman did have more direct control, by all accounts, after Fuller and Green were fired/left, but that doesn’t mean anything really.
What’s there to defend?People know that all of this is make believe, right?
I’m nearly 60, and prone to the occasional muddle with all these new-fangled progressive words, so I initially read ‘non-binary’ as ‘cis’ (as in non-binary = not two things; just one thing).Consequently, I was confused as fuck as to why Gaiman would approve of a non-binary Desire.
when Desire first appears in Sandman number 10, they are described as “him-, her-, or itself.”
Changed to “him-, her- or themselves” in the audiobook, in case someone wonders.
I think “shouty people” is probably the best description ever. That dude has a way with words.
Delirium is loosely based on Tori, not Death. Says the 62 y-o with a black wig. 😉
Delirium was inspired by Tori Amos, not Death. Death’s inspiration was Cinamon Hadley. Also, Death takes on numerous shapes. People who have not read the comics need to stfu on both fronts.
I just started reading Sandman (I know, I know) and I am only on issue 10, but that people would have issues with these casting decisions indicate that they may not have understood what they were reading.
As written, this is a little over the top. There is a reference to one (one!!!) Twitter user INSINUATING that Gaiman had sold out. By the standards of social media, that’s a breathtakingly strong batting average. But, yeah, let’s go ahead and rage against some non-existent toxic fanbase. (Or at least a toxic fanbase that goes unmentioned in this article.)Also – though he may have created the most popular version of Sandman – Gaiman didn’t create the character. It had been around for years before Gaiman put his spin on it.
Well, there was a completely different character called the Sandman, a masked vigilante who puts people to sleep with a gas-gun. Seeing as how Dream is a completely different concept to this, I think we can say that Gaiman created the character as he appears in the comic.
hard pass.
““I spent 30 years successfully battling bad movies of Sandman. I give zero fucks about people who don’t understand/ haven’t read Sandman whining about a non-binary Desire or that Death isn’t white enough. Watch the show, make up your minds.”
Jeez.Again, when I saw the cast list, I thought it was a sort of wink to the fact that Desire changes sex during his or her various encounters. (I think it was the only picture labeled “they/them”, but I might be misremembering.) I didn’t know (um, didn’t care either) if that particular actor was trans or not – just thought it was the character. And because, I guess, I’m an idiot, I didn’t expect a backlash. But as Gaiman points out…. these people apparently haven’t read the books. As *I* would point out – I think they have. They just didn’t understand what they were reading.
Kirby Howell Baptiste is AWESOME, and I think she’ll be wonderful as Death. She has just the right matter-of-fact-cheerful personality for the character. Getting hung up on the color of the comic character’s skin is beyond ridiculous.
“And the shouty people appear to have skipped that step.”
Ain’t that the truth.
It’s Delerium who was allegedly, but not really, inspired by Tori Amos. And Dream has switched species and ethnicities throughout the comic. These are racist, transphobic remarks from people who clearly don’t get the source material. Buck up snowflakes.
I’m in a place where I totally can’t picture what a Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death performance would even look like. But ya know: she’s an actor, a good one. I bet she’s gonna act. Can’t wait for her to impress me.