Incels are fascinating. For the blissfully unaware, the term stands for “involuntarily celibate,” and though it was invented by a woman with good intentions, a bunch of misogynist dudes on Reddit swiftly claimed the label for themselves—as is the American way. Incels have created their own terminology in the dark and swampy corners of the internet, where they trade tips on how to make their wieners bigger or get ripped so they can gain access to the vaginas they are so clearly entitled to plunder. It’s a violently misogynistic community—make no mistake about that—but it also might be the least self-aware one; an entire community dedicated to the art of the self-own. Take, for instance, the latest trend among incels: Cosmetic surgery. In a feature that inspires both awe and numerous eye rolls, The Cut explores the world of incels and their desperate obsession with becoming “Chads”—a term that refers to the hyper-masculine, square-jawed physical ideal popularized by male models. The incels want to become Chads so they can conquer a “Stacey”—their term for beautiful women, the kind who only ever seem to get with Chads.
In order to become Chads, incels have anointed Indiana-based cosmetic surgeon Barry Eppley as their God. The Cut follows one incel in particular, whose online handle is (or was) “Truth4Lie” as he embarks on a multi-thousand dollar journey to obtain a Chad face. It is, in effect, a far more thrilling self-own than jelqing—the term for a technique adopted by incels who pull at their half-boners for hours on end in a fruitless attempt to make their penises bigger. Unlike jelqing, which is free (last I checked) and useless (don’t need to double-check that one), cosmetic surgery is extremely expensive and actually achieves something—superficially, at least. Men are flocking to surgeons like Eppley to have their shoulders widened, their jaws chiseled, and muscles implanted where there were none before. Using custom implants, Eppley can help incels become the Chads they’ve always wanted to be, on the outside at least.
Perhaps the most delicious moment in The Cut’s feature involves an incel with the online handle “LegendOfBrickTamland.” Incels bemoan the many “privileges” bestowed upon women (LOL!) and whine about how we’re allowed to decide who gets to enter our vaginas and when, and scoff because women are never judged for getting plastic surgery (the internet is truly a world of fantasy and delusion)… and then something kind of magical happens:
“Getting treated better after surgery feels sickening,” wrote one user, LegendOfBrickTamland. Brick had gotten a new jaw, nose, and cheekbones from a surgeon in California, costing him around $30,000, and still he was furious at women and the world. “It’s like, I am the same fucking person, and yet I am somehow better because I spent some money and had a man cut my face up. Might as well just go with prostitutes. At least it’s an honest exchange.”
On that day, LegendOfBrickTamland unwittingly stumbled upon something women have been experiencing for, oh, I don’t know, the last forever-teen thousand years. Imagine, if you will, living in a world where you constantly feel judged for your outward appearance, where you are bombarded with images of “ideal” beauty, where your entire worth is—as far as you can tell—based on what you look like and not who you actually are. Unfortunately, the incels have yet to discover the body-positivity or body-neutrality movements, nor have they considered the galaxy-brain idea that maybe—just maybe—spending tens of thousands of dollars (from where did you get this money?!) on cosmetic surgery will not change who you are on the inside. And even more unfortunately for them, who they are on the inside is toxic sludge in the shape of a man.
It’s kind of amazing that they devote so much of their time to excruciatingly futile endeavors like spending $30k to look like someone else, or yanking on their penises for hours on end instead of taking a more simple approach—like, I dunno, being better people who don’t hate women and espouse toxic and violent misogynistic bullshit. This answer has always been staring them in the face—a face that is probably just fine the way it is. And I know this because I am a woman. Physical insecurity is hardwired into my DNA. While I cannot be bothered to feel sad for these men and their expensive new faces, I can give them a piece of hard-won advice: No one gives a shit what you look like as much as you do.
241 Comments
Maybe if they smiled more.
Fucking brilliant. You win the Internet today.
Hell yeah, I remember back in the olden days when people won Internets. Remember All Your Base? Remember Newgrounds animations about Mario getting high? Oh man, it’s so cool to be old.
Incels with ass implants and an incel section at Sephora would be a hilarious evolution to all of this.
Only after getting veneers.
Chancellor, I have only star to give you but it counts as a thousand.
I regret I have but one star to give you.
Maybe if they discovered hookers…
I hope your comment doesn’t make any of them angry, because you’re clearly just trying to be nice.
INCELS
MOTHERFUCKING
OBLITERATED
Thank you all, people. We shall now close the internet for the week.
Oh goodness no. I’ve got plenty more crappy jokes and bad takes to fill the whole week.
Except that was anything but crappy and bad. It was the perfect one-liner for the situation.(Don’t worry you still have some chances, turns out the internets are still open, apparently.)
Live sexy!SexyNewsTodaydotCom
Cool, a story about the proud boys. If incels would just eat a bullet, the world would be a better place. All these little piece of trump scum deserve all the pain that they’re experiencing.
This is part of their long term plan for the Beta uprising. First, they disguise themselves as Alphas, and then they infiltrate all the Alpha’s hangouts…your frats, your exclusive nightclubs, your sushi restaurants, then you befriend them, get close to them, and then you take down the system…unless before then you hook up with some cute woman who is a total 9 or 10 and not at all shallow like all those Stacy’s who rejected them in high school, in which case, the beta uprising will be put off for a while.
It’s an odd line of thinking. “I hate them, but only because I am jealous of them and want to be like them. I call them scum and everything wrong with the world and would advocate violence against them, yet if I could be like them and have what they have, then I’d never have a complaint about life ever again.”
It’s because they think those others guys don’t deserve to date beautiful women, but they do, because they’re, wait for it, Nice Guys.
I don’t think it’s an “odd” line of thinking at all. I think that hating someone because they have things you believe you cannot have is pretty damn common. I think it goes something like “It’s not fair. I can’t have what they have, and I should have it. But, since I can’t be brought up to what I see is their level, I will bring them down to mine.”
“I think it goes something like “It’s not fair. I can’t have what they have, and I should have it. But, since I can’t be brought up to what I see is their level, I will bring them down to mine.””
How is it “like” that, when they’s specifically attempting to “rise” to their level and have shown absolutely no interest in “bringing them down”.
I mean, you think that spending tens of thousands of dollars to “look like them” is somehow an attempt to bring them down?
No, as stated by Godot above, the idea is two-sided. The underlying problem/source is that these other people have what I want, and I perceive that I deserve it [whatever “it” may be] more and they deserve it less. If nothing else I deserve it more simply because I appreciate it and value it more. This is clear to me because I have made a big deal about it and I perceive they take it for granted or, even worse, show it off. Plus, I know what it’s like to be without and they don’t.So if I can get it, I must have it. But, I had to work for it and they did not. That’s still not fair, but it makes me that much more worthy of it. My actions are justfied and -in a sense, noble – achieving some sort of justice by giving it to one (me) who truly should have it.However, if I cannot get it no matter my efforts, then things are even more unfair. I clearly deserve it and therefore should have it, and they clearly do not and should not. So, since I cannot “redistribute” it, I will not cease in “calling them scum and everything wrong with the world and advocating violence against them.” The idea is to take it away from them, too. Then the undeserving don’t have what I deserve. Once again, I have achieved justice and fairness.
This is really the hardest part of all this for me to fathom. “I hate Chads but I’m willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to become a Chad.”
I think Stabbing Westward put it best.And yes, I could have used the official music video.
All this talk of Alphas and Betas – I’d be keeping an eye on those sneaky Gammas.
I’m pretty sure in the article LegendOfBrickTamland is pretty clear that he does, in fact, get treated better after his cosmetic surgery even though he has the same shitty personality so how does that jive with some of your comments about how it doesn’t make a difference what these fucking assholes look like?
Where are comments that say that looks don’t make a difference?
Your question: “Where are comments that say that looks don’t make a difference?” The article: “It’s kind of amazing that they devote so much of their time to excruciatingly futile endeavors…”
Calling something futile means it doesn’t make a difference. Do you really need to be told that?
…excruciatingly futile endeavors like spending $30k to look like someone else, or yanking on their penises for hours on endFutile as in they will never look like the person they are trying to emulate no matter how much they spend and pulling your penis doesn’t make it bigger.
Yeah, you were just strait up wrong dude, it’s okay to admit it. 😉
Good luck with your consultation.
At least cosmetic surgery can make a person look better. Nothing you do will ever make you less stupid. 😀
But you could at least seem a little less stupid if you would use slightly fewer emoticons…
😛 😀 😉 🙂
it’s futile because a) “it doesn’t change who they are on the inside”, and b) “nobody cares about how you look as much as you do”.
The change to their looks does make a difference in how people act toward them in day-to-day encounters, which makes them madder because how dare people treat them differently after they spent all that money to get people to treat them differently.It’s a futile endeavor overall because it doesn’t accomplish their long-term goal of drowning in pussy, because they’re still maximally obnoxious shitheads and, get this, women are more likely to have a sexual relationship with a not-especially-hot guy who isn’t an obnoxious shithead than they are with a beautiful obnoxious shithead. Proof: millions and millions of not-especially-hot guys who aren’t obnoxious shitheads have sexual relationships with women; meanwhile, these weiners drop more than their yearly income to look like a model and still can’t get anybody to touch their dicks.
That was the way I read it. There are studies that suggest that more conventionally attractive people are treated better in limited social interactions: customer service situations, interviews, that sort of thing. It’s less effective for deeper relationships. So you can spend all the money you want on plastic surgery, it’s not going to convince someone who’s known you’re an arsehole for years that you’re a better person now.
You /definitely/ came off as the stupid in that exchange.
If it helps, it’s intentional.
If Danny DeVito can get laid…
Danny DeVito?Yeah, I’d fuck ’im
To be fair, his wife is almost as goblin-like as he is. They are both hilarious people though.
It would seem these incels have champagne taste on a beer (or tap water) budget.
Well at least Danny DeVito and Rhea Pearlmen have redeeming qualities.
Danny DeVito is funny, talented, and rich, though. If Danny DeVito was just a tedious schlub who worked at McDonalds I don’t know how well he’d do.
A few folks mention they’re treated better after surgery, but it’s more the confidence they get FROM it. The concept that you’re more confident and more willing to smile and engage people. The main guy in the article also feels like he’s “treated better” but ends up relapsing into his Incel behavior and (to me) by the end he’s obsessing even more over surgery and his face.So it doesn’t matter what they look like: cause they’re so filled with hate and rage. And not the good Rageahol type either…
If you see what an average person actually gets surgery wise it’s usually not that much and falls into the somewhat noticeable category. Yet it makes them feel better and gives them confidence. There are exceptions, but especially since it’s guys it’s not like they’re getting giant implants or something. There are exceptions of course, but that would take a while and a lot of money.
I couldn’t get over the amount of money these guys were willing to spend. But it didn’t seem to make all of them feel better or more confidant. It’s probably a really vicious cycle.
That’s true some of these people are just fucked and surgery might become a weird unhelpful habit. Like some unfortunate celebrities and maybe they’ll get addicted opioids from the recoveries, a double lose.
It is a sad fact that people, on the whole, will treat physically attractive people better than physically unattractive people.
BUT – and it’s a big BUT – how happy you are is not dependent on how others treat you, but on how you treat yourself.
And how you treat yourself also determines how you treat others. Happy people ooze kindness, unhappy people ooze meanness.
So doing the work to make YOURSELF happy makes the world happier. And sadly, the opposite is also true.
“Happy people ooze kindness, unhappy people ooze meanness.” that’s a load of bullshit, i’m one of the happiest people i know and i’m also one of the meanest people i know. 😛
I somehow doubt that.
Meh. It’s a mix of both. Conventionally attractive people absolutely get more respect, attention, and good-will than less attractive people. Which can definitely affect the way you react to the world, no matter which side of the equation you’re on. But regardless of how you’re treated by whom, there’s never a reason to believe that people OWE you affection, physical or otherwise. That’s not a rational response to being conventionally unattractive. That just straight up sociopathy.
You think depressed people all ooze meanness?
Generally, yes.
Which is another reason to seek treatment if you need it.
Man, I don’t know how to respond to that. Congratulations on never having lived with depression? I’ve always struggled with depression, but I have always thought of myself as a kind person. I doubt this unsubstantiated anecdote will change your mind.
I grew up with many depressed people, and even the usually nice ones were mean when under the spell of depression. Such as my mom, who was one of the nicest people ever when happy, but when depressed was often angry and violent.
I know that when I’m in a bad mood, I’m not nearly as pleasant as when I’m happy. I think that’s true for most people. If it’s not for you, then good on you! You’re a better person than most, including me.
I’m sorry your mother was prone to anger and violence. I’m not a ray of sunshine, but I’m generally nice to people. Maybe the people you thought were nice when in a good mood weren’t really all that nice.
I think it goes way, way deeper than that for you. I think your sense of justice is tied to the idea that mean people must be getting punished in some way while nice people must be getting rewarded in some way.
This isn’t the case. There’s absolutely no punishment or drawback to being mean to people. In fact, it’s rewarded as often as not, just like being nice is just as likely to get you treated like shit.
Oh, my, I just LOVE being psychoanalyzed by complete strangers.
but do you enjoy it as much as you enjoy spewing ridiculously untrue platitudes as the gospel truth based on your personal experiences? 😉
I think we’ve all known stunningly attractive people who treat others like shit, are always looking to better-deal their friends or SOs, etc. I know both women and men who spent their lives jettisoning boyfriends and girlfriends for the next person who was better looking, more fit or richer. The last I remember of most was them looking around wondering where the party had gone, how everyone else could possibly be married when they weren’t.
You’re letting the fact that a lot of these dudes are legitimately lowkey ugly and unfuckable, get in the way of all that dismissive snark.
Lots of low and high key ugly people fuck. That isn’t these incels biggest problem.
I had an incel co-worker years before I knew the word ‘incel’ so I can tell you a little about the un-fuckable hate army mindset. A defining characteristic of an incel is to not only be a loyal soldier in the un-fuckable hate army, but to somehow stay that way forever as bitterly as possible. So, being unfuckable is another one of their self-owns, basically their biggest self-own – and please forgive me for not knowing a better way to express this concept – they reject anyone in “their league”. It’s based on some unattainable idea of who they should “get to” fuck, and an abuse of an old Groucho Marx concept about never joining a club that would have him as a member; they would never have sex with a woman who would be willing to because wanting to have sex with one of them is a flaw…technically not incorrect but super fucking wrong.
He perceives a difference in how he is treated. I think his perception is the key here.
In general, stereotypically ‘attractive’ people are treated better in our culture than people who aren’t. For men this means taller than average, not overweight, symmetrical features, wide chins/cheekbones and some (but not too much musculature). Blue eyes helps and, of course, being white. So, yes, the guy probably is being treated better in the public sense, but that’s not likely to translate to significant improvement in access to the magical vagina that will (finally) make him feel like a man. It’s most likely, in fact, that if/when these guys do enter a relationship with a woman, they’ll still be dissatisfied because they have bizarre and unrealistic expectations on what relationships and sex are, and are fundamentally misogynistic and will still find some reason to resent and hate women.
Does he, or does he just think he does? Also he is still complaining on an Incel forum so he is clearly still not getting laid. I suspect he is being treated the same but he may have a small confidence boost because of the surgery which is making him perceive he is being treated better.
Okay, I’ll be clear about it: you’re ugly as shit, dude, physically ugly, and on top of that, you’re a whiner, which makes you even more repulsive.
lol. at least you’ve got the “toxic” part of “toxic masculinity” down. i’ll make sure to work harder to be more attractive to strangers online in the future. 😉
So they are Selma’s, not Patty’s.
Flagged for apostrophe abuse.
Yeah, I am finally starting to regret sleeping through apostrophe’s in school.
Now you’re just doing it on purpose.
*your
No, wait, you had it right the first time : )
*r’ight
can’t do surgery on your soul, boy.
And there’s limitations of what they can do for your … downstairs inadequacies.
It’s not even something that would change things. These guys can’t get to the point where a woman could even judge their downstairs inadequacies. Getting to the point where they got rejected because of that would be progress. They could have perfect dicks, and it wouldn’t do them any good, because it’s not as if you can just go out in open society and tell all the beautiful women “I have a perfect dick. Wanna see?” and expect much business. In truth, they can blame their looks or socieial expectations all they want, but ugly guys get laid all the time. Maybe they have to spend money. Maybe they have to be charming. Maybe they have to lower their standards, and stop going after or referring to women as “Staceys.” Maybe the key is to just not be such a self pitying loser.The problem is that there is probably a mental condition at play here. We’re probably dunking on guys that need treatment, only they’re so fucking awful that it’s almost impossible to feel anything approaching sympathy for these bastards. Either way, it’s probably best that they don’t reproduce.
Wait, so you’re saying unsolicited dick pics don’t work?
https://giphy.com/gifs/surprised-pikachu-6nWhy3ulBL7GSCvKw6
“Maybe they have to lower their standards, and stop going after or referring to women as ‘Staceys.’”
Ding. Ding. Ding. I had a friend, who is no longer a friend because he sexually assaulted someone, who matched the dictionary definition of INCEL perfectly. He was not a looker but told me multiple times that he was afraid he would be forced to date an ugly woman. He was apparently operating under the assumption that because he had a stable job and a house, he was entitled to a supermodel.
When I was in college, one of my neighbors was a guy who, at 20, looked like he was in his 40’s (paunchy, balding). When a mutual friend suggested “You should ask so and so out, I think she likes you”, he responded by saying that she was a 5, and he would never consider dating anyone below an 8. Shockingly, he never dated in college. Clearly one of life’s unsolved mysteries. He definitely thought of himself as a “nice guy”.
Maybe they have to spend money. Maybe they have to be charming.What if you’re ugly and broke? And “you have to be charming”? It’s not like they have a charm switch that they accidentally left off, presumably they’re being as charming as they’re able to be. They could try to learn to be more charming, but the only guides to that are going to lead them into negging and all that other PUA nonsense. Maybe they have to lower their standardsThere’s this long-running idea that incels consistently have weirdly high standards, and I’m not sure if there’s any evidence for it but I’m always pretty skeptical.
I mean you could read where they fixate on girls they literally refer to as Staceys as the equivalent to Chads, but sure, no evidence whatsoever that they might be punching out of their weight class. Curious what you propose? There isn’t some form of government subsidized pussy for the ugly, broke assholes of the world who have no game, so if the solution isn’t “don’t be so awful and try to improve yourself”… I’m at a loss. Women do get to have some say here.
They fixate on them, but I’m not convinced that means they go after them exclusively. Curious what you propose?I don’t know if there’s any solution, I just think being dismissive and acting like anyone can get a date if they just try isn’t doing anyone any good.
My guess is they don’t go after anybody. They’re self defeating by nature. But it sure reads like they’re pissed off that they can’t get an attractive woman. I’d be sympathetic enough if they weren’t complete assholes about their situation. And again, they could find somebody. There is always somebody. I see it constantly. It’s just that finding that somebody might take work/change, and they might have to lower their standards. But I doubt they even want a relationship. Again, a relationship is actual work. It’s not 100% about your needs. They want the currency of having a woman. It sure seems like they just want validation. Again, sad. But they act like the worst assholes when they don’t get it, and that’s not cool either, so they can log off.
I’d think they at least used to go after people, although who knows if they still do. But the vibe I always get is that they’re upset that no woman will date them, not that plenty of women would but they’re not good enough. If there’s one group I wouldn’t assume has high standards it’s the people who are so lonely they’ve gone insane. It’s just that finding that somebody might take work/change, and they might have to lower their standards.I don’t know how much you can work to change your face without surgery, and every guide on changing your personality to make women like you more is PUA nonsense, I don’t think there’s some agreed-upon system for how to be pleasant.
Unless we’re talking about somebody who has been horribly scarred, their face is not the problem. Very few faces are so ugly so as to be completely irredeemable. It’s the way you act with that face that determines how well you’re going to do in a relationship. Some faces will have a better go at it than others. Nobody’s suggesting they won’t. But to say “Oh, nobody could ever love me. My face too gross,” is just horseshit. And then to take that and spew metric tonnes of toxic crap about women in general is just wretched. We’re all hiding behind a screen, but I would be willing to bet you in the vast majority of these cases, their personalities are significantly less attractive than their faces.
Very few faces are so ugly so as to be completely irredeemableYou don’t have to be irredeemable, just a worse option than the others available. It’s the way you act with that face that determines how well you’re going to do in a relationship. And a lot of people just aren’t charming. Some people have bad personalities. But to say “Oh, nobody could ever love me. My face too gross,” is just horseshit. In the same way that there will always be catches, there will always be the bottom of the barrel. We’re all hiding behind a screen, but I would be willing to bet you in the vast majority of these cases, their personalities are significantly less attractive than their faces.And there’s not that much that can be done about an unattractive personality.
The thing is, you’re assuming there is one universal standard for a good looking face, and that’s bollocks. My girlfriend, for example, has no interest in the Chris Pine, square-jawed look (or for super-muscled bodies either). Some people like round, chubby faces; some like a lot of hair; some like really strong features while other people prefer delicate ones. There’s no bottom of the barrel because there’s no barrel.
And there is plenty of non-surgical things you can do with your face, that women do all the time: take care of your skin, apply some make-up, choose a hairstyle that works for your face, accessorise. There’s no reason men can’t do this. I sometimes put on a little foundation, sometimes some blush, even eyeshadow if I’m feeling it, and I don’t feel like less of a man. Even if you don’t want to wear makeup – and clearly no one should feel like they have to – just work with what you’ve got. Have a beard? Groom it. Wear sunglasses and hats. Get piercings. No matter what kind of face you have, you can probably do something great with it.
Really it’s all stuff that the animal kingdom has sorted out billions of years ago. If you’re considered traditionally undesirable, figure out a way to rebrand yourself as desirable, or don’t pass your genes on. I don’t know of a ton of examples of pent up Emperor Penguins banding together and then squaking at the females who managed to lay an egg.The bottom line is that we all have to give other people a reason to like us. You can’t take the “just be yourself” to the most radical extreme, where sitting on your ass, whining about how a smoking hot 10 hasn’t burst down your door and demanded passionate love, is the preferred way to meet somebody. In other words, if everybody is dancing, you can either dance or sit in the corner, but don’t get on everybody’s case for dancing just because you’re not much of a dancer.
Excellent advice, especially if you’re Mr Darcy.
and every guide on changing your personality to make women like you more is PUA nonsense, I don’t think there’s some agreed-upon system for how to be pleasant.No, every guide on faking your personality to try and trick women into sleeping with you is PUA nonsense. And there absolutely is an agreed-upon system for how to be pleasant: Don’t Be A Dick. These guys are dicks.
If that counts as faking it, then what’s a real personality change, going off to live with monks? And there absolutely is an agreed-upon system for how to be pleasant: Don’t Be A Dick. That’s part of it, but there’s a lot more to it. Even someone who’s trying to not be a dick can still be boring, grating, or generally unpleasant. It’s like saying “the secret to being handsome is not tattooing a racial slur onto your forehead”- sure, obviously don’t do that thing, but even without the racial slur people can still be ugly.
Judging by your other responses here, you’re just refusing to accept anything that doesn’t confirm your existing opinion, so I’m not going to waste any further time explaining explanations that you won’t accept anyway.
What a great way to avoid confronting the weaknesses in your argument.
Nah, they’re correct. You’re not presenting any new information. You’re just dug in on this one, refusing to listen to the only real options. Your argument boils down to copying and pasting the responses and saying “Nuh uh.” You have no intention of engaging in an exchange of ideas. You just want to take a weird stance.
“New information”? You say this like you’ve been presenting evidence this whole time. You can’t criticize someone for not posting facts and citing sources when that hasn’t been going on from the beginning, that’s just nonsense. You’re just dug in on this one, refusing to listen to the only real options. Your argument boils down to copying and pasting the responses and saying “Nuh uh.”What a flagrant and deliberate misreading of my points. I guess if you want to ignore the things that are clearly written out I can’t stop you.
Sick, another copy and paste response.Have a good one.
Sure, if by “copy and paste response” you mean “making it clear which part of the comment each part of the reply is referring to, which is just etiquette”.
This is boring.
This Guy Fawking gets it
Guy that refuses to listen or empathise with a different perspective whilst bleating their “correct” theories to everyone else also thinks unattractive personalities are unavoidable and immutable. Self fulfilling prophesy innit?
The striking similarity between this guy’s “argument” style and the typical incel poutfest make me suspect we might have an undercover incel on our hands.
There are ways to work on not being boring or grating. Learn to be generous in conversation so you don’t dominate, respond to what the other person says and ask questions, pick up on cues so that if someone doesn’t seem interested in the topic you can move on, try to match the energy of the other person, etc. If you can do these things (and they are learned behaviours), a lot of the things people consider “boring” or “grating” will disappear. And if the person still finds you boring, they’re probably just not compatible with you and you won’t enjoy their company anyway.
As far as standards go, I think it’s less about lowering than it is about actually questioning their standards. A lot of these guys seem to just accept a standard of attractiveness without ever considering if that’s what they’re interested in. Maybe they’re actually attracted to something other than the supermodel look.Like, I won’t deny that someone like, say, Scarlett Johansson is attractive to me on a certain level. But when I think about who I really find attractive, it’s a different type entirely. My girlfriend is short, chubby, and, as far as I’m concerned, absolutely gorgeous. (I like her on levels other than the physical, of course, but I’m definitely attracted to a girl who looks like her.)
There’s this long-running idea that incels consistently have weirdly high standards, and I’m not sure if there’s any evidence for itYou should – if you’re ready to feel like your brain needs to be bleached – check out their forums, then. They invented the term “Incel-tier girlfriend.” That’s what they call it when they have a girlfriend who isn’t Stacy-level hot (which they sometimes call HB10, or Hot Babe 10/10), therefore allowing them to still classify themselves as Incels.Their standards are so high that they can have a girlfriend who loves and fucks them and still count themselves as Involuntarily Celibate because she’s not a supermodel.
There’s this long-running idea that incels consistently have weirdly
high standards, and I’m not sure if there’s any evidence for it but I’m
always pretty skeptical. Spend ~30 minutes on /r9k/ or on the incel boards on Reddit and a few things will become clear as day. You’ll have plenty of evidence that:1) they have no self-esteem regardless of actual or perceived ugliness2) nevertheless they universally think they deserve someone hotter than they are3) the idea of dating at “their level” or lowering standards is an absolute non-starter and they think it’s a sign of failure
4) women incels will enter these spaces and get immediately dunked on, none of these guys ever, ever attempt to hook up or even talk to them.I don’t know how anyone could be skeptical of something so clear. “Their standards are too high” isn’t the be-all end-all, just a large piece of the puzzle that makes up the cult of incel.
I’ve only looked at the Reddit incels, so maybe they vary from location to location, but they seem obsessed with “looksmatch” relationships. The only time I see them critique women’s appearances are when they make strawmen of the people who criticize them or do the whole “promiscuous women have larger labias” thing. And they say that the subreddit for female incels got shut down because the people posting there got too many messages asking them out, although of course anything incels say, especially about women, should be taken with a brick of salt so I can’t say with any certainty that that’s what actually happened.
You’re responding to a commenter who has demonstrated beyond doubt that they are a deliberately obtuse and combative shitturkey. Hell, the The Cut article answers his question about incels’ unreasonable standards with this quote from Truth4Lie:
I want to live in hotels in tropical countries and live a playboy life there, only fucking hot blonde European girls
but he’s still “skeptical” because either he didn’t read shit or he did but would rather pretend anything counter to the contrarian bullshit he’s on about doesn’t exist. Both scenarios seem equally likely.
because it’s not as if you can just go out in open society and tell all the beautiful women “I have a perfect dick. Wanna see?” and expect much business.Whereas “I have perfects tits. Wanna see?” has an almost perfect track record.Women really are the privileged gender!
What exactly about someone being mentally ill prevents that person from being a bastard or a bad person in general?The truth is, if you’re mentally ill and you’re able to act responsibly to minimize the risk or harm to yourself and others, but you choose not to, you’re doing something morally wrong and you should be held to account for it. It sucks that mental illness comes with that added moral responsibility. But it’s a fallen world we live in.
Yet
heh heh heh.
“You can’t? Well, I’ll have to do something about my big nose instead.”
-Lord Voldemort
I liked it better when Great Job Internet didn’t ruin my day.
This isn’t even a “Great Job Internet.” This story is from New York Magazine, a printed publication. 😛
Aren’t these just cunts? Strikes me any and all discussion or debate around these people can be achieved with a simple “Ah yes. Cunts”. Would save a lot of time
ugly is on the inside.
And all the way to the bone
Change your faces all you want, boys, but I think perpetually-being-12 is a little too young to start dating, anyway.
“Might as well just go with prostitutes. At least it’s an honest exchange.”
Too bad you didn’t think of that before dropping 30K, huh?
There is a part of me that feels sorry for some of these guys because they’ve obviously internalized unrealistic media ideals of beauty for men (it sounds silly to say in a world where those expectations are hundredfold worse for women, but they do exist). As a guy who has struggled with body image issues all my life, I am sympathetic to that issue.*
Of course, the fact that they use those issues as an excuse to be violent misogynists immediately tamps down my sympathy. Focus that self-loathing into healthy outlets, like bad poetry and self-depreciating humor.
*It’s my belief that the world will be better when women are freed from bullshit physical expectations, not when men are equally burdened by them.
You should only feel “sorry” for them in the sense that they’re wasting their money on something that isn’t going to work and will give them major physical side effects as they age. These idiots are not thinking about at all what their bigger balls will look and feel like at sixty years old. Sure, there are unrealistic media ideals of beauty for men, but most normal men deal with that by hitting the gym, or changing their wardrobe, or taking coaching classes, not by spending hundreds of thousands on plastic surgery.
And most “normal” women do, too. But if we accept that body dysmorphia and eating disorders are legitimate mental disorders (and, you know, not just ‘lady problems’) then we have to accept that men can suffer from them, and incels who are focused on “Chads” are likely suffering from said disorders.
Again, your sympathy may vary, and I don’t expect anyone here to feel bad for incels (generally speaking, I don’t), but in the same way that male depression often expresses itself in more violent, social ways than female depression, I don’t have a hard time accepting that “incel” behavior is a reflection of serious mental illness.
Just as I don’t feel bad for someone who kills someone while driving drunk but I do feel sympathy for alcoholics in general, I don’t feel bad for misogynists, but I do feel bad for men who struggle with body-related issues. If you don’t, you don’t.
And most “normal” women do, too. But if we accept that body dysmorphia and eating disorders are legitimate mental disorders (and, you know, not just ‘lady problems’) then we have to accept that men can suffer from them, and incels who are focused on “Chads” are likely suffering from said disorders. Except that if you had bothered to read my post you’d see that I didn’t deny that men go through the same issues, they just deal with it differently through bodybuilding/exercise, wardrobe change, learning pickup lines, etc, etc, or that they just don’t care and expect women to like them for being fat, smelly, etc, and get mad when they don’t. MRAs/Incels are suffering from a whole other disorder called entitlement and egotism. Because it’s not enough that they aren’t getting women to like them, but that they feel that entitled to a certain type of woman, i.e: super attractive supermodel that is dumb and submissive and puts out sex on demand. That’s a whole other thing altogether than your typical mental disorders/depression where there is a legit reason why they have self-esteem/confidence issues, and not because they’re being cry/manbabies that they don’t get sex on demand with “perfect 10s.”
No reason to get so agro, bro. It’s just a calm conversation, at least on my part. As I said in my post (which I assume you did read, but because we all live hectic lives, maybe you didn’t catch the nuance), I don’t feel bad for most Incels (and MRAs) and I don’t expect anyone else to.
But, there are plenty of women who have plastic surgery and do other dramatic things to their body. So it isn’t like these guys are some wild, male-only phenomenon. People of all genders struggle with how they look and that’s a real issue. I’m not all heartbroken over LegendOfBrickTamland or anyone else in this article. And I certainly don’t feel any sympathy for those who turn self-loathing into misogyny.
Perhaps it’s a chicken and egg scenario. Maybe all of these guys are misogynistic assholes who found each other online and formed a movement (genuinely, that might be what happened). Maybe, though, some guys with body issues and depression wound up online and they were won over by a philosophy that told them their problems were not their fault, and society was to blame for their loneliness. It’s not too far off from the same things we tell struggling LGBT and overweight youth. I understand the Incel/MRA philosophy is far darker than that; my point is about how some lonely, self-hating guys might be lulled into the Incel philosophy initially.
We worry publicly about young white males being radicalized online, but maybe it’s time we acknowledged that preventing that requires more than making snarky comments on articles about Incels doing stupid shit. Or not, whatever, the world’s a shithole.
Who is getting “agro” here “bro?” I’m seeing trying to justify and put in the same boat MRA/Incels with men who do have body issues and depression issues which is wrong. Saying yet again, and the part that is making me frustrated here is that they are not the same and that they are their own animal and problem. Especially if you actually read the original NYMag article, and similar reports about them, they don’t look like they are having serious body issues and depression. The Santa Barbara incel that mass murdered people was mad and jealous that women that he wanted to date, i.e: “perfect 10s” wouldn’t date him despite his “good looks and charm.: The Toronto incel killer, the same thing. That’s the whole point here that you seem to be missing, seemingly and suspiciously, deliberately, there is seriously nothing wrong with these guys other than the fact that they are misogynistic assholes, entitled misogynistic assholes who are mad that the “perfect 10″ supermodel women that they feel are entitled to are going for them, despite being the “nice guy” found each other online and formed a movement, and are now doing this kind of surgery at best, and outright killing women at worst.The men that do have body issues and depression issues, sure, recognize that and help them. Entitled, self-loathing assholes, who turn that into misogyny, no, making snarky comments on articles about Incels doing stupid shit, and preferably locked up since its shown they can and do become violent.
Hmmm, I’m following your discussion with 10cities and I understand where you’re coming from. Your point that these people are outwardly complete turds of human beings seems like an appropriate assessment to me; they develop self/outwardly-destructive and completely irrational views on women and have completely warped perceptions of entitlement. However, I do think you’re doing some minimizing here with your statement that “there’s nothing wrong with these guys.” You seem to be saying that these men are physically and psychologically within the norm for society and are just irascible, misogynistic dickheads and that’s where I think I disagree with you. This isn’t a defense of their behavior, I find it as reprehensible as you, but I think a lot of these men probably experience unhealthy, skewed, and dangerous internalization of social norms regarding dating and sex, beyond what a normal person might. Unrealistic expectations with respect to sex and dating are unhealthy for either sex and they manifest in a rainbow of outward behavior and inward thought-process loops. I completely understand the desire to write these assholes off as normal men who are acting badly and are just toxic human beings, but I doubt that’s genuinely helpful to resolving anything. I don’t find myself having much sympathy for them and I find it difficult to say anything about these people other than “what a bunch of stupid assholes,” but I also find myself thinking that there’s a chain of events and messages that brought this person to internalize this unhealthy mix of world-views and join forces with this toxic community that probably needs addressing just as much as the chain of events and unhealthy expectations we have of women that lead them into self-destructive loops
but I also find myself thinking that there’s a chain of events that brought this person to internalize this unhealthy mix of world-views and join forces withthis toxic community that probably needs addressing just as much as the unhealthy expectations we have of women that lead them into self-destructive loopsExcept that if you all actually read the article(s) that explain the background of these guys, one of the primary reasons that drive these guys over the edge is “nice guy syndrome” i.e: they were [constantly] rejected by women by whatever entitlement/egotistic reasons. That they felt that they “deserved” to be loved and respected by women because they were “nice to them,” “did what they wanted” etc, etc, overlooking whatever anti-social, entitled, sociopathic behavior they really had, again I point to the Santa Barbara shooter/Toronto van driver here as an example. That’s the issue that really needs to be addressed. Its not little self-esteem, its too much self-esteem. Arrogance. Entitlement. And they externalize it.
Right, I completely agree that’s what happening, I think that’s a good summary of the timelines of these men’s lives. Not to overly pathologize the human condition, I think that over-abundance of esteem and entitlement you describe is in and of itself a sign of an unhealthy person and when it’s faced with rejection and challenge, it can get derailed into just what you said, sociopathic, anti-social behavior. I’d go so far as to say this happens in people who don’t have robust adult coping mechanisms. Imagine that a person with tthis unhealthy psyche rooted in feelings of entitlement experiences repeated rejection and decides to come into a therapist’s office, before they turn to the incel community. If this person was able to verbalize what they’re experiencing with women and what kinds of emotions those experiences are creating, I think a decent therapist would be able to help this person see that they’ve internalized social messages in an unhealthy manner and might be able to guide that person through the maze of coping with rejection and their own feelings of anger, rejection, entitlement, etc. I think devoid of help these people who probably do start out generally normal but are overly-entitled misogynists as you mentioned, get pushed over the line into patterns of pathogical behavior. I think this behavior is a matter of degree and the worst of it are the extremes of violence that you brought up, but I think all of the men in this community are struggling with unhealthy thought patterns and a lack of coping mechanisms that sets them apart from other adults
You’re absolutely right and correct with valid points. But this is vastly different than what 10cities10years is trying to say that it’s tied to men having self-esteem/body/personality/confidence issues. A guy who may turn over to the MRA/incel crowd because he thinks he’s too fat or “ugly” and etc, is vastly different than some arrogant, entitled, asshole who thinks he’s god’s gift to women because he’s “Mr. Nice Guy,” and resorts to this kind of surgery, or worse, outright kills women like in Santa Barbara and Toronto.
Yeah that’s probably an important distinction. I think both people obviously need help. However you’re right, they might both end up in the community of incels but they’re coming from 2 wildly different places and shouldn’t be treated as homogeneous.
I’m not sure you understand what I’m trying to say, so I’d take kindly to you not trying to summarize it based on your failed understanding.
What BlackMesaPRDepartment said up above is, in fact, in line with what I was saying. I explicitly stated up above that I have no sympathy for the guys in this article. My point wasn’t about these specific people interviewed for this article. My point was about the men in general who do have body dysmorphia and other like mental issues that might be drawn to something like an Incel/MRA worldview. I am talking about those specific people, not the ones who kill women or even just spend all day harassing women online. (And maybe I would feel sympathy for some of the guys in the article if I knew them more; I don’t feel it’s necessary to draw firm lines on where my sympathy can extend.)
You’re myopically consumed with this article. Meanwhile, I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of these types of Incel/MRA websites. There are plenty of irredeemable (well, maybe nigh irredeemable) assholes on those sites, but there are also plenty of clearly just lonely, sad, self-hating guys on there who feel anger and latch onto a group that gets them to focus their anger on an “other” (i.e. women). Just as no one is born racist, I don’t believe anyone is born misogynistic. I have the ability to hate and feel no sympathy for the Incel mass shooters, while also recognizing that not everyone drawn into that worldview is necessarily a completely unsympathetic asshole.
I do apologize that I dared express even the remotest sympathy for people who you feel are unworthy of your consideration. I will aim never to offend your sensibilities again.
BlackMesaPRDepartment perfectly understood and agreed with my points that clearly didn’t read or understand any of our discussion because you insist on being a myopic asshole and your incorrect points are correct and valid no matter how non-sensical they are. Because he clearly understood the very clear point and distinction I made between those with self-esteem issues versus those who are entitled assholes with too much self-esteem. Don’t apologize for the fact that you seem to be jumping through hoops to apologize for incels because you probably are one yourself pretending to be otherwise so you can get stars from your fellows who’ll be in here to flame everyone shortly. Er sorry, “sympathize” with them.
“A guy who may turn over to the MRA/incel crowd because he thinks he’s too fat or “ugly” and etc, is vastly different than some arrogant, entitled, asshole who thinks he’s god’s gift to women because he’s “Mr. Nice Guy,” and resorts to this kind of surgery, or worse, outright kills women like in Santa Barbara and Toronto.”Yes, but is it too much of a stretch to imagine that these people are one in the same? It’s not like the “Mr. Nice Guy” piece of shit was created in a vacuum — obviously getting to the heart of this problem is rather impossible, and there’s so many factors at play that can create situations like these. But I seriously believe that many incels start out as the person who feels “too fat” or “too ugly” and has serious self-image issues…and that those feelings of self-loating festers. And they start to hate themselves, and it feels awful, and they feel miserable, and they look for any excuse possible to “free” themselves of the self-hatred that they are feeling. So like so many tend to do, they try to find a scapegoat and, through the larger incel community that the internet can so easily connect them too, turn to women as the source of their issue. They shift the blame to the scary “other,” because it’s so much easier than looking inward. So they get radicalized, and have their misogynistic tendencies amplified to the extreme. Anything to shift the reason for their emotional state onto others, to ignore that they are mentally wrong in some way. Obviously it’s hard to feel pity for dangerous assholes like this. But I agree with 10cities10years that many of the people in this article are DEFINITELY mentally ill in some capacity. Just because it manifests itself in misogyny and horrid thoughts doesn’t make its root cause any different. I mean, for god’s sake, this quote:“My self-image fluctuates all the time,” he wrote on the forum as he waited. “I want to live in a plastic surgeon’s office. I just want to have a bed in one of his labs. Just a bed, a small kitchen, and an internet connection. I want to feel pure within my body and self-validate by looking in the mirror and seeing the flawless skull. When detecting a tiny deformity, I call the surgeon and he’ll be there immediately, along with his assistant and a knife in his hand to cut me open.”There is no universe where I can read a quote like that and think “Yup, perfectly normal guy who’s just an arrogant asshole!” That is some deep, dark mental instability. And ignoring that (as the person himself did by adopting the incel thought process, and turning to plastic surgery as an end-all-be-all solution) does us no favors in the long run.
Why is it that you and 10cities10years are having trouble comprehending what im saying here? That there are different kinds of motivations and mental issues when it comes to these guys and they act and externalize it in different ways? The Santa Barbara shooter did not have any issue with his esteem and his appearance. This article you’re quoting had him saying he hired a woman for his company just so he could be “Mr. Nice Guy.” Some incels don’t have any problem talking to women and going on date, but think that women are only good for sex and get mad when they don’t actually do that.
Yes, I understand that. But you keep coming back to the Santa Barbara shooter, which I don’t think is the focal point of 10cities10years, myself, or even this article. The main subject of this article is probably Truth4lie, who by the quote I mentioned and many others included in the article, almost certainly has a mental illness. I understand what you are coming from here, but why you keep returning to “but the Santa Barbera shooter did not have the same issue!”, when no one but you has even mentioned the Santa Barbera shooter, is a bit of confusion to me. It makes it sound like you are using the Santa Barbera guy as proof that all incels are really just perfectly stable, if misogynistic (which I would argue in and of itself is a sign of deep psychological issues, but that’s not the point of this discussion) people, and dispelling 10Cities10Years thesis in the process. My only point of contention is that no two incels are alike…which I feel you are trying to get across as well, but we keep kind of getting into an internet conversation loop about anyways. No one directly interviewed in this Cut article (which, ostensibly, is what we are all here discussing) has performed an act nearly close to the scale of the Santa Barbera shooter. They just act like assholes, ruin their own body (and perform literal acts of self-harm in the process), and spread toxic rhetoric. All bad things, don’t get me wrong, and all things that could lead to worse behavior in the future. Which is why we need to look deeply at the psychological roots of the issue before that happens.
Except that 10cities10years admitted that the article isn’t even the focal point of his posts as it seems the both of you aren’t at all reading, understanding, or comprehending anything i’m saying. You’re seemingly just waiting for me to reply, so you can reply back to aggressively argue your points and insist on being correct and shout me down. If you’re not gonna bother reading and understanding anything I say, BlackMesaPRDepartment clearly did as we both came to an agreement with each others points, and just want to jump in to argue on being 100% right, then don’t bother replying and wasting each others time and i’ll dismiss your replies and this thread.
When did I EVER say I was 100% right? No one is — we are all just throwing shit out on a topic that is vastly more complex than anyone arguing on the AV Club comment board can even begin to figure out. I also fully admitted to not completely understanding your intent, which is exactly why I commented in the first place. I apologize that seemed to aggravate you; I can empathize with the concept of making a point multiple times, only to have others fail to grasp it. But I don’t see why we have to go throwing out accusations of having this discussion in bad faith. I am not at all trying to assert that I am 100% right on this issue, but can you at least meet me half way here and admit that you aren’t 100% right either? Regardless, all that internet blustering that we are both spewing off is wildly veering off course from the original point of this conversation, and my comment. I will reiterate, just in case I failed to get my point across previously: it is my opinion that much (but certainly not all) of this toxic incel behavior is bred out of mental illness, and because it goes untreated for so long, it manifests itself into a whole mess of horrible, despicable behaviors and beliefs. It’s likely we both are circling similar arguments here, I just wanted to expound on what you last said about the two categories being vastly different types of incels (one being bred of a self image disorder, and one being bred of pure misogyny and entitlement.) There is a direct path between the two that I believe is in large part a way for the incel to cope with his illness, and push aside the deep psychological issues that he suffers. Doesn’t make the action any less horrid, or the subject any more sympathetic (they ultimately made the choice to pursue bitterness and hatred of others, rather than try for self-help and improvement.)I understand if you don’t want to repeat yourself again — you don’t owe me further explanation, or reasoning. And it’s entirely likely that I just will keep missing the grander point you are making, whatever that might be. That would be entirely on me, and at a certain point, I think we would just have to chalk it up to our points being lost in internet translation. But I certainly don’t want to invalidate your take as without merit. If that’s what you got out of my comment, I apologize.
How about just reading and understanding what i’m saying instead of not actually doing that and pretending to be arguing in good faith? Because you have now Real simple now:1. Not all incels are the same. They have different mental issues and motivations. 2. In that respect, is stupid and wrong to group them all together. Again with the Santa Barbara killer, he had no issues with his self-esteem and body. He was already a misogynist who felt like he was entitled to sex on demand with beautiful women. That is a vastly different mental issue than these guys in the article who think that by getting surgery to look like an “alpha male” that then they’ll be able to sleep with whomever they want. 3. The QED here is the misogyny that you can’t just simply wave away with or blame 100% on mental illness. There are plenty of MRA/incels who have no mental issues and are just dickhead misogynists; there are men with confidence/body issues who never become MRA/incels. The fact that you and the OP keep insisting on being 100% right is just bad and wrong. Again, if you’re not going to bother reading, understanding, or comprehend anything, and are just looking to hit reply and mindlessly spew your arguments in order to get your internet win, then don’t bother replying and i’ll just dismiss this.
I literally don’t know what more I can say that won’t just lead to you responding the same way to me. Everything I’ve said in the past couple comments you have outright ignored — like the fact that, by god, I DON’T THINK I AM 100% RIGHT. ON ANYTHING. Why do you keep returning to this? For someone who keeps railing about how no one is reading your words, you seem to be ignoring pretty much everything I am writing.And seriously man, why do you keep insulting me? “Mindlessly spew?” I have tried to keep this civil, but it seems you want to come at this from the most aggressive place possible. I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY — I don’t understand why you are treating me as such. Case in point — literally everything you wrote in the last comment I completely agree with! We are, once again, more in agreement on this than disagreement. In what way you think we substantially differ, I have no idea.
You tried, I tried. I think he was having a bad day and decided to take it out on some random internet strangers. I wish him the best and am just going to drop it.
Cheers, Internet Stranger
Man, you are really leaning into being an asshole, which is pretty ironic considering that you’re calling everyone else an asshole (and then randomly accusing me of being an Incel because I expressed sympathy for some people who are Incels; that’s a good look).
In that respect, is stupid and wrong to group them all together.
Yes, obviously, which is why I haven’t been grouping all of them together. You have. I’ve been saying since the very beginning “some” as in, some of the people who are Incels probably deserve some sympathy. The fact that you and the OP keep insisting on being 100% right is just bad and wrong. There’s only one person who is insisting on being 100% right, and it isn’t me or Matthew Legarreta.But, honestly, this is pointless. You have all the anger and pointless aggressive behavior of the people you despise. Step back and ask yourself why you’ve gotten so worked up online about a guy saying he feels some sympathy for some people. Where is that anger coming from? If you’re having a bad day, I hope you slept on it and have now cooled down. It’s not that important. Breathe deep, move on, feel better.
I “slept on it” and decided you’re still a passive aggressive, phony, incel, troll that has reading comprehensive issues that internet fights at 4 o’clock in the morning which underscores how pathetic you are. So fuck you.There? Happy? Now fuck off. Go ahead and reply to that.
Alright dude, you definitely seem like a normal, healthy person with a good grasp on your emotions. You are certainly the person who should be judging Incels.
Not everyone lives in America, by the way, so I’m actually posting at a normal, middle of my workday time. You too?
And yes, reading through this entire exchange, I definitely see how I come off pathetic.
“A guy who may turn over to the MRA/incel crowd because he thinks he’s too fat or “ugly” and etc, is vastly different than some arrogant, entitled, asshole who thinks he’s god’s gift to women because he’s “Mr. Nice Guy,” and resorts to this kind of surgery, or worse, outright kills women like in Santa Barbara and Toronto.”Yeah, there’s two groups there. 10cities is simply saying that that first group exists and in turn, you’re being rude and implying that he is either sympathetic to or an incel himself.
You do realize that Body Dysmorphia makes you think that you look worse than you do, right? They don’t see themselves the way other people see them. They literally see themselves as deformed, similar to how someone with anorexia would look into the mirror and see themselves as fat even though that’s not what they are.
Chill out, spazz.
Yeah, no. It’s pretty obvious that they suffer from Body Dysmorphic Disorder. Obsessing over one’s looks and trying to fix them because you think that this will improve your life is pretty indicative of Body Dysmorphic Disorder. Mentally ill people can be shitty. Some mentally ill people turn their suffering into shitty behaviour. Claiming this all just entitlement and in no way mental illness is extremely ignorant and dangerous because it denies that these people need therapy.
Nah, mental illness does not deserve to be saddled with this bullshit. These are idiots gone viral, not actually mentally ill people.
You’re dreaming if you think most of these guys aren’t suffering from severe pathological anxiety, at the very least.What a lot of people have a hard time getting their heads around is that the way mentally ill people choose to handle their mental illness is something for which a great many of them can and should be held to account, and many of those folks handle it in a way that is morally wrong and harmful to themselves and others.Being mentally ill doesn’t keep someone from being a bad person, in other words. And fair or not, mental illness often puts an extra burden on the mentally ill person to keep themselves from causing harm through their symptoms so far as they’re able. These guys don’t bother. They revel in their illness and identify with it as a lifestyle, interpreting the symptoms of that illness as though those symptoms are their defining characteristics as people. That’s always the wrong choice.
Being in shape and well dressed can only do so much for a bad face.
Men with “bad faces” get girls and even married all the time. If you looked at the linked article, these guys don’t even look all that “bad.”
Sure, but presumably they have something else to offer. Charm, talent, a sense of humor, whatever. But there’s always going to be a certain chunk of the population that has a charmless personality in addition to being unattractive.
But there’s always going to be a certain chunk of the population that has a charmless personality in addition to being unattractive. So? This justifies them being a misogynistic MRA/incel how now?!?And define “unattractive.” “Attractiveness” is a highly subjective trait. Anyone is “attractive” to someone.
Not remotely, I never came close to implying that. I’m just saying that some people are always going to be ugly and unpleasant, and it doesn’t do any good to gloss over it.
You are implying it by using highly self-defined and subjective terms of “ugly and unpleasant.” Someone may find you “ugly and unpleasant,” but someone else may see otherwise. That’s the whole point here.
There’s some variation, but only so much. Most people are more or less in agreement on whether a person is attractive or charming, it’s more like taste in movies than in music. Some people are just the living equivalent of Movie 43, and there’s only so much you can do about it.
There are people out there who find Donald Trump or even Adolf Hitler attractive or charming as those two wound up with women and getting married, which is the point I’m saying here as far as those being highly subjective traits, that you keep missing in order to argue your pointless, bad faith, circular, arguments that I will stop entertaining.
Trump is vaguely rich and more or less famous, I seriously doubt any of the women we know slept with him would have done so without those massive advantages the average person can’t replicate. The only problem with Hitler was that he was a monstrous Nazi, so to another Nazi he probably seemed fine. You’re acting like there’s no such thing as a person who’s generally agreed to be ugly or unpleasant, which is just delusional.
Oh so you admit and agree that being “ugly” and “unpleasant” is in the eye of the beholder? And that there are other traits women look at and find attractive to where they’ll overlook that? That you’re being an unpleasant argument troll because you can and have no discernable point to make? Good to know and good reason to dismiss and ignore going forward.
Oh so you admit and agree that being “ugly” and “unpleasant” is in the eye of the beholder?As I said before, there’s a degree of variation but by and large there’s consensus. And that there are other traits women look at and find attractive to where they’ll overlook that?Very, very few men have traits that will allow them to compensate for being both ugly and unpleasant. Celebrities, millionaires, drug dealers, it’s rare. That you’re being an unpleasant argument troll because you can and have no discernable point to make? Or you’re just completely unable to follow the clear argument being made.
More depressing is how the article actually has photos of some of these dudes… and they’re normal-looking. A little MPB here, a little pudgy there, maybe vaguely ethnic in a way that would only bother someone who’s really racist. What they want to look like are the models from Dolce and Gabbana ads (which, ironically, are chosen to represent high gay camp).The more you read of that article, the more is seems like incel-dom should get a special listing in the DSM5.
Considering that Incel culture is a pretty dark place where they encourage each other to do bad things. Yeah these people need mental health checkups
It’s a sad, perfect illustration of the fact that feminism is for men, too. Men can always say, “Women experience oppressive social expectations, just like I do – maybe a philosophy that discusses those expectations could help my life.” If instead they buy into those expectations and scorn people who don’t, there’s not much you can do.
100%. I wholeheartedly believe I could have turned out pretty shitty if I hadn’t met my college best friend, an opinionated feminist that helped lead me toward a better worldview (at a time when I was leaving the fundamentalist Christianity of my upbringing, no less).
As it ends up, I only turned out kinda shitty.
*It’s my belief that the world will be better when women are freed from bullshit physical expectations, not when men are equally burdened by them. Harrsion Bergeron was supposed to be a dystopian satire, not a how-to, I think.
Too bad there’s no surgery that can remove the toxic poison that incels’ brains are filled with. Women are still going to be repulsed by you even if you have pec implants or whatever, because it was never about your appearance.
Right, imagine if they spent 1/10th of that $30K on therapy!
I’m gonna guess that these guys do not look even remotely normal. They probably look like guys who had a lot of shit done to their faces and that is gross to me.
I have a friend from growing up who from what I hear has morphed into one of these guys. He didn’t have a ton of luck with girls in high school but had a serious girlfriend for a couple of years in college and a short time after. She was cute, fun, nice, an all-around delightful person. She broke up with him but instead of using his success with her as a confidence-building springboard, he spent at least a year moping and complaining to anyone who would listen about how he’d been wronged. This included other women, who of course couldn’t get away from him fast enough. His resentment turned into a general hostility towards women, and he never pulled out of it. Mutual friends who still see him sometimes say he’s turned into a full-on misogynist. We’re in our 40s now – that’s how long this has gone on – so I’m afraid he’s just beyond hope at this point.
Anyway, this is how I can feel sorry for some of these guys.
I dunno, there’s probably a surgery that could achieve those goals. Lobotomy would probably do the trick.
I have idly considered trolling these psychotic forums by claiming to be a bigdickcel, celibate because Stacey wants nothing to do with my terrifyingly giant dick, life ain’t like a porno movie, maaaan.
But then I’d have to register, and post on these things, probably end up on a watchlist…nah. Idea’s out there if anyone wants to run with it though.
Imagine the ads that you’ll start seeing. Because I have a huge and unfortunate tendency towards morbid curiosity, I’ve considered checking out some of these community, just to see what they’re really like. But then I remember that there are trackers all over the place and do I want them to know I went there. And no, no I don’t. So I stay away.
If you’re really curious, the ones on reddit are probably the easiest to peruse without it coming back to bite you. Alternatively there’s sites like We Hunted the Mammoth or some people on twitter that aggregate content from these creeps for the edification and amusement of all.
But you post here which, by default, has already put you on at least five different watch lists.Why let that stop you?
Weirdest episode of Supernatural ever.
Okay, I thought a “Chad” was the antagonist in a Rom-Com who’s dating the girl that the protagonist wants to date, and is usually, by the third act, exposed to the girl (and often a lot of other people) as the douche the protagonist always knew he was. Why do incels want to be this guy?
Maybe because up until Chad is unmasked he is banging Stacey like a screen door in a hurricane.The incel “movement” seems to be about having a girl to fuck, not a girl to live with, so act three is never really in the picture for them.
I mean, you answered your own question. Their ideal is not “good-looks/good-heart,” it’s “good-looks/rotten-core-turd-of-a-heart.”
I’m not sure they want to be Chads, just look like them. Think how much women would love them if they had an outside to match their Nice Guy inside!
I thought that was the Baxter?
IIRC, Baxters are the harmless, slightly boring guys that the girl is dating early on in the film, but who eventually gets dumped for the protagonist. And usually he’s a nice guy about it (as opposed to being a Nice Guy about it) and ultimately wishes them well.
See also: the film career of James Marsden.
Ralph Bellamy in His Girl Friday would be a Baxter. Billy Zabka in Back To School (or The Karate Kid… or just about every other Zabka role in the ’80s) would be a Chad.
Zabka was a hero and champion!
Total bullshit that the ref didn’t disqualify LaRusso for that clearly illegal kick to the head!
The world’s saddest Baxter is MJ’s fiance in the first Spiderman movie. The guy is a freaking astronaut and never puts a foot wrong, and he happens to lose the girl to the one person in the world who has a cooler job than an astronaut.
Because they see themselves as the romantic protagonist and thus expected the object of their affections to leave a Chad for them (without, you know, doing any of the self reflection/growth/positive things a protagonist in such films does). When that didn’t happen toys were expelled from prams “THE MOVIES LIED TO ME, TURN TO THE DARK SIDE” etcetera etcetera
They must’ve been influenced by that South Park episode where Randy and company discovered that women supposedly like bigger balls, so they get cancer on purpose to grow them out.
Come on, man. They got cancer so they could go to the cannabis dispensary. The huge balls and the affection their women had for them were a side effect.
A few things:1) Pick a better name than fucking “Chad.” That’s just code for “douche” (I get it, because it’s what y’all want to be, but still).2) It’s pretty funny that their white ideal shares a name with a country that’s like 80%+ black.3) I’ve got larger-than-average balls (I know you don’t care and this is NOT a brag). My 4-year old daughter has managed to smash, crush, kick, smush, squish, punch, and otherwise basically obliterate my junk. They’re always in the way. Boxer briefs are uncomfortable. Having big balls isn’t really something to aspire to.
Is it your belief that they should be held every night?
I do like it when they’re held for pleasure.
Chad has widespread female genital mutilation, so it reads…
Good point.
“Brick had gotten a new jaw, nose, and cheekbones from a surgeon in California, costing him around $30,000″He’s gonna get so much lamp now.
I really hate the term incel. There is nothing involuntary about them. They are very much choosing how to behave, how to treat women and how to be very awful people. Calling their celibacy involuntary some kind of onus on the women that are not sleeping with them which is not the case at all. They are doing everything they can to be repulsive and the fact that they can’t treat women with respect is there own choice.
We see that, but they sure don’t. They want to be getting laid but aren’t. Meanwhile we know they could change voluntarily behaviors in ways that would greatly improve their odds.
I’m an involuntary non-movie star. I can’t act, haven’t done anything to learn the craft of acting, and haven’t tried to get acting work and build a career, but it’s still bullshit that I’m not Robert Downey Jr-level successful. When will Hollywood give me the credit I deserve?
My favourite was the guy up there arguing that some people just have shitty personalities whilst refusing to listen or attempt to engage with anyone else in more reasoned discussion.The philosophy basically just enables their continued shitty behaviour which then is espoused in the shittiest of ways, further cementing said behaviour. Is that the incircle of life?
THANK YOU. You took the words out of my keyboard.
They need intense therapy not surgery.
Rather than “Oh shit”, wouldn’t the sensible response be “who gives a shit”?
There’s clearly a lot of men with undiagnosed with mental illnesses in the INCEL movement.Yes, they are toxic and entitled too. But something is off both emotionally and psychologically. As someone (female) with low self esteem I can relate. And they need to realize just because a person you find attractive isn’t in to you, 1.) that doesn’t make you unattractive sometimes you just don’t click and attraction is nebulous thing anyways 2.) doesn’t make them a bitch 3.) personality counts for a lot, so maybe it is you, because you’re a shithead 4.) no one is owed anything.
They don’t just hate women, they hate themselves. But also women…they hate them. A lot.The description of the main guy in the pieces bedroom really says all you need to know about him and incels:The first time Truth4lie saw Eppley was during a video consultation one summer afternoon in 2016. He was living in an apartment his parents owned. His bedroom was what he calls “typical incel,” i.e., “trillions of fruit flies multiplying, cigarettes and ash on the floor, dirty clothes all over the place, not a glimmer of light.” He took his laptop to the garden outside.Clearly his problem is his nose not being “Roman” enough!“I hope everything goes well and this will be a real change,” he wrote on the forum. “But where do I need to begin? I need women, lots of women, to make up for my miserable life. I need a new social circle, a new identity, a new life. I’ve been thinking of leaving my country. I want to live in hotels in tropical countries and live a playboy life there, only fucking hot blonde European girls. I have the money, I have the freedom. I need to go and leave this goddamn rotten place, need to leave everything behind, my old life.”
He’s not getting into any tropical countries covered in fruit-fly larvae.
but it also might be the least self-aware one; an entire community dedicated to the art of the self-own. Take, for instance, the latest trend among incels: Cosmetic surgery. There’s definitely a lack of self-awareness, but I think they’re pretty aware that they think they’re ugly. Whenever I see their stuff it looks like a lot of really explicit self-loathing mixed in with the misogyny. Also, is it that recent? I remember ContraPoints talked a lot about it in her video, and that was a while ago. I guess from a certain perspective incels are a new enough thing that anything’s recent. On that day, LegendOfBrickTamland unwittingly stumbled upon something women have been experiencing for, oh, I don’t know, the last forever-teen thousand years. Imagine, if you will, living in a world where you constantly feel judged for your outward appearance, where you are bombarded with images of “ideal” beauty, where your entire worth is—as far as you can tell—based on what you look like and not who you actually are. I’m pretty sure a guy who went in for thousands of dollars of plastic surgery already knew about that. Unfortunately, the incels have yet to discover the body-positivity or body-neutrality movementsIn my experience those movements are pretty gendered, I don’t know how much help they’d be. And even if the incels just decided to start up a new branch, if their whole problem is with how they interact with women I don’t think validation from other incels would make them any happier.
I kinda hope this goes crazy and all the Incels end up with jawlines like Shrek
But that will just make them more fuckable! They would have won!
HEY NOW
I fooled my Stacey into being with me by being smart, funny, supportive, considerate, and sharing her interests and tastes. Sucker.
And how much does it cost to have a surgeon implant all those qualities in me?
And humble. Don’t forget humble
The biggest thing getting in incel’s way is their own unrealistic expectations. It’s not about finding a woman to love or to connect with, it’s purely about getting laid and specifically about sleeping with only 10/10s. Even when they complain about women not agreeing to go to dinner with them what they’re really saying is “She wouldn’t go to dinner with me which means she won’t have sex with me because once she gets dinner she has to have sex with me”. What they never seem to realize is that while yes, some women are attracted specifically to men who are assholes (And vice versa), the vast majority of “Chads” are just genuinely nice guys who would do well regardless of bone structure. Personality goes a really long way, take it from a guy who’s gotten by largely on charm in both my romantic and professional life.
“Men are flocking to surgeons like Eppley…” Really? Flocking?
This description of the featured incel:“Most days, he would work from home, post on the forums, then eventually
dress — leather jacket, torn jeans, fingerless leather gloves — and take
a walk around the village, silently cataloguing how many people glanced
at him or returned a smile.”I’m no supermodel, but I can tell you for a fact that there’s no way I’m acknowledging a guy walking around in fingerless leather gloves unless it’s 1981 and I just happen to see Michael Pare by the craft services table on the “Greatest American Hero” set.
Jeez, and all we did when we were young and unfuckable was play D&D.
That’s not ALL we did. Some of us got pretty good at painting miniatures too.
Hey, I also played the TMNT RPG. And Car Wars.I was never good at painting figurines, but after I got into skateboarding, I used to build little fingerboards out of cardboard and the wheels that I ripped out of Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars. We’d draw the graphics on the bottom, build giant fingerboard ramps, the whole bit. Good sexless fun.
My freshman year of high school, the most popular senior was super into D&D. He also slept with the hottest women. It completely ruined the stereotype for me.D&D did not help me get laid.
It’s helped me get laid over the last couple years, which is odd. Young me, come high-five old me. We did it. We finally did it.
To be fair, he did have a 19 Charisma.
I like, just Started reading the article this one is commenting on – holy shit. Maybe I’ll get to the point where I can say, “Hah! Great job self-owning, you loser” by the end, but god damn. Hope he/others like him get help and feel less miserable someday (soon)
“You dissect the existing testicle out through a small incision,” he explains with a tinkerer’s enthusiasm. “Then we take our little wraparound. Clever design. Uh, it’s hard to describe.” Here he hands me a blob of gummy silicone. It’s too large for me to get my fingers around and has the texture of fine sand. “Then we put it back in. Point of the story is, you double the size of somebody’s testicles.”I’m so confused right now.
Brick had gotten a new jaw, nose, and cheekbones from a surgeon in California, costing him around $30,000, and still he was furious at women and the world. Just by keeping that money you’d make yourself more attractive to the sort of women you’re interested in, Poindexter.
Bright side, ladies – now, at least they’re going to be easier to spot out in the wild.
The GINI coefficient for men is TWICE that for women, meaning inequality among men in terms of attractiveness is far more extreme and harsh. Thus, it’s absolutely hilarious that women constantly complain how men are shallow, while calling men who do the same kind of complaining ‘toxic sludge’.
Oh
Nothing is more telling than this quote from the article:“He was living in an apartment his parents owned. His bedroom was what he calls “typical incel,” i.e., “trillions of fruit flies multiplying, cigarettes and ash on the floor, dirty clothes all over the place, not a glimmer of light.””Yep, the only reason he doesn’t have a girlfriend is because of his weak jaw line. Couldn’t possibly be anything else.
Some of the people definitely have body dysmorphia, but that doesn’t excuse their toxic, disgusting, misogynistic behavior.
Shoulda spent the $30k on therapy to fix the broken person inside them that’s causing all their misery in the first place. People don’t screw you not because of how you look, but because of who you are and how you treat others — perhaps starting with treating women like people rather than objects and trophies. The fact that you have the world’s worst support group in your fellow incels should be proof enough.
This line from the article stood out to me:
He was living in an apartment his parents owned. His bedroom was what he
calls “typical incel,” i.e., “trillions of fruit flies multiplying,
cigarettes and ash on the floor, dirty clothes all over the place, not a
glimmer of light.”
If that’s “typical incel,” there’s a place to start. JFC.
Next stop: Therapy for the next 30 years!
This is just mortifying to read.But FFS, no one is entitled to sex, not even married people or conventionally attractive people.
I’m a known homosexual, so I don’t have any experiences trying to have sex with women. The following may not apply as much to these guys’ situation since there seems to be less inhibition when it comes to casual sex between 2 (or more) consenting gay dudes, but some of the basics are the same.
I’m not what many would consider to be conventionally attractive and what I find to be physically attractive does not align with cultural standards of male beauty. I deal with self-esteem issues and have faced lots of rejection in the past, but I’ve had 3 long-term relationships and tons of sex with guys I’d consider to be very attractive. I’m now married to someone who I have unexpectedly seen in a crowd and thought, “Damn.” before I realized he was my husband. Now, I know and he knows that he is also not conventionally attractive. But he’s a 10 to me, and I’m a 10 to him.
Something that I think most people would agree with is
that someone who’s a 6 or 7 with a great personality becomes a 9 or 10
overall. And someone who’s a 10 in the looks department with a shitty
personality drops to a 3 or even as low as a 1. Plastic surgery won’t fix a shitty personality.
The thing that I had to get through my head was that I’m not everyone’s cup of tea. I just had to wade through enough guys to find the ones for whom I was their cup of tea.CubAvenger’s Rules for Getting Laid (and One Day Maybe Even Married):Be genuinely, unselfishly kind and considerate without expecting anything in return.Have empathy for those who are not as privileged as yourself.Develop a personality based around your interests but also be aware of more than just narrow interests so you can connect with people on different levels.Be able to carry on an intelligent conversation online and in-person.Read social cues about when people are bored with a conversation.Have a sense of humor that isn’t only perceptible by a dark corner of the web.Don’t be an entitled asshole when it comes to sex.Don’t kiss like a fish or mash your lips together like you’re in a Hays Code-era movie.Get off your computer and get away from these hate-filled, self-loathing communities.Go out into the world. Through trial and error, see what works and what doesn’t when you’re talking to someone. (It takes years to get this one right, but it’s something the dating app age has almost completely killed—even in gay circles. It’s a necessary skill that is often best learned through failure. If what you’re doing isn’t working or people are turned off by your personality, change it. Improve yourself.)Don’t be a creep. Take “no” for an answer and move on.
I do not identify as intel. I do not share their hate or misogyny. However, because I am not a macho toxic masculine man, I get treated like crap. I am worthless because I am More feminine. Because I am skinny and dainty, and I’m empathic and polite Andy emotional and honest and kind. And people treat me like shit, like garbage, like I’m the worst kind of person. Meanwhile in my area all I see is actually awful people having no problem finding dates with very attractive women who turn their nose up at me, an unconventionally attractive man by non gender normal standards, only to seek out people who are greasy and gross (or sweaty and jacked) and rude and lewd and often even abusive. And I just don’t get it. But it’s everywhere. People literally call me a faggot and make fun of me, just because of how I look, while continuing to bolster the worst kinds of people. The “chads” as these horrible incel people call it. Like what they are saying and doing is wrong, and I don’t support it. But what they are cplaining about IS real. And it’s not about entitlement or treating women like objects. At least not to me. I just wish society wouldn’t have them all so convinced that I’m a disgusting monster because I don’t fit standard gender norms.
If wanking made penises bigger, most men would have to buy shoes in threes.
It’s fun to watch aging “news”-writers attempt to catch up with what’s happening on the Internet… by watching movies and TV about it years after it’s happened.You might call it the “Law & Order” effect.
And now they can have the surgery to turn them into Chuds. Sorry, Chads. Although……
‘ Brick had gotten a new jaw, nose, and cheekbones from a surgeon in California’. So what’s the surgeon using for a face these days?
I think it’s the height of ignorance that many Americans refuse to see how easy it is for white boys, from “good homes and schools,” to get radicalized just as easily as the Muslim teenagers they love to demonize. They just need a small toxic closed circuit, where they and all their snivelling new friends can rebuild their identities around the things society *supposedly* says they are. To these groups, there is a dark power that comes from “owning” the parts you are taught to hate about yourself. But eventually, inevitably, it’s never enough. And then it’s time to talk weapons and exit strategies.
Studies have shown that only 5% of the best looking men on dating apps get 95% of the attention of women. What they write in their profiles, by and large, makes little difference. It’s not the incels who are toxic.