Wonder Woman 1984, the sequel to one of the good movies to come out of Warner Bros.’ DC cinematic universe, won’t hit theaters until next year, but director Patty Jenkins already has a plan for a hypothetical third movie in the series. The first movie took place during World War I and the second takes place in—get this—1984, but Jenkins says a third movie would be a “contemporary story” because there’s nowhere else to go in the past. That comes from The Hollywood Reporter, which says Jenkins won’t give any other information on what she has in mind since it isn’t “totally nailed down,” but she definitely doesn’t have any intention of doing a ‘90s or early-2000s Wonder Woman movie next.
However, her willingness to tease a plan like that does point to a new looseness that Warner Bros. seems to be bringing to its DC movie canon, as previously suggested by Aquaman’s unclear position in the established Justice League timeline. Seeing as how there probably won’t be another Justice League movie for a while, that frees up Jenkins to tell a modern Wonder Woman story that won’t necessarily have to go out of its way to either tie in with or stay out of the way of a team-up film.
Also, speaking of Justice League, Jenkins says she has no interest in directing a Justice League movie, to the point where she hopes Warner Bros. doesn’t try doing another one “for a little while.” She says she’d much rather see Aquaman 2 and whatever happens with Flash. “Never say never,” she adds, “but I think everyone should have their moment to shine.”
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Same
If they do do another Justice League movie, they’d better have a better antagonist than Steppanwolf, a minor New Gods character that’s unbelievably forgettable. I mean, before this movie came out I knew more about the Black Racer than I did Steppanwolf, and he’s a dude on skis that is one of the DCU’s personifications of death.
He looks like a Doctor Who villain from the old era.
To be fair, since Final Crisis his look has been updated.
Does it help though or is this like putting a racing stripe and spoiler on a Geo Metro?
Racing stripe + 15 WHPSpoiler + 10 WHP
What about this one then?
Oh, they made him Darkhawk?
OH MY GOD! Darkhawk! I used to love this comic. Completely forgot it even existed till just now. Guess I know the rabbit hole I will fall down this evening. Wonder what happened to him…
He bought skiis.
Making him a Cylon is an improvement.
*Ski Sunday music plays in my head*Huh – that’s actually a pretty good superhero theme tune…Okay, I’m in – here’s fifteen million dollars.
He’s black.He skis.What else did you need to know?
In all fairness, Steppenwolf was chosen because he was supposed to lead to Darkseid, but WB’s impatience and the shortsighted hiring of Joss Whedon ruined that. Like seriously, aside from adding sexism to Justice League, Whedon’s Avengers movies and X-Men comics already showed that he would overwrite any part of a shared universe that did not agree with. Before he derailed the character of Cyborg and Aquaman (to the point that James Wan and others making the movie had to consult Zack Snyder without WB’s knowledge to fix it), he already did that with MCU’s Iron Man and Captain America. Any surprise that Kevin Feige replaced him with The Russo brothers, whose MCU movies tries to reference even small details of movies that precede them?
Being a minor character in source material doesn’t necessarily matter if the adaptation brings good ideas to the table. Of course, that’s not what happened here.
lol that they gave him ski poles
He looks like Captain America on a ski vacation.
If we are doing Justice League against New Gods, then plan it out correctly and build the franchise as Marvel has done with their movies. Assume that your audience either knows and understands the origin stories of most of the League or tell them as flashback scenes of no more than three to five minutes in length. Save the lengthy exposition for the not-so-well-known characters (like Orion, Mister Miracle, and the Forever People) and build the movies out of each other. Start with Superman and Wonder Woman realizing that saving the world will be easier if the heroes band together, recruit a reluctant Batman (who will always be reluctant, because that’s his nature; Batman doesn’t trust anybody except Alfred mostly), and after THAT movie, do a New Gods movie that outlines the swap of children between Apokolips and New Genesis and shows Orion’s journey to hero. Then do another movie like the Flash or Green Lantern or something and have Darkseid be recognized as an approaching threat. Then tell Mister Miracle’s story, while gradually building both of these story paths AND a franchise, and then have a Giant War movie between Darkseid and the heroes. And don’t involve Zack Snyder in any of it, not even as tea boy.
I agree with her that DC shouldn’t make any bad movies for a while.
Just don’t hire Joss Whedon or let people like Kevin Tsujihara and Geoff Johns micromanage. Why is Whedon not #metoo-ed into oblivion yet, anyway?
From what I read. the accusations against Whedon never came directly from anyone he allegedly abused. They came from his ex wife during their messy divorce.
Anf from Syafiqjaber of Mars’ comments, it’s pretty clear he’s just your average run of the mill Snyder Cultist who compares anyone who criticizes BvS with racism.
Because not a single person has suggested he used his power/status in an inappropriate way, as far as I know. His ex-wife complained about him cheating on her with people he worked with (which has not been corroborated), but that’s different than #metoo. And his response was exactly what therapists and counselors say is the proper response to a difficult divorce. He basically said, “I love my ex-wife and family. Because I care and respect them, I don’t want to respond publicly to her accusations.”
Well said.
Says the Snyder Cultist who compared people who didn’t like BvS to racism.
He cheated on his wife. How is that a #metoo issue?
Because nobody accused him of impropriety. He cheated on his wife, which makes him a dick but not an abuser. And he said some gross stuff which again, makes him a dick but not an abuser.
Because what he did to the Justice League movie cannot be considered abuse?
If you think Whedon was the problem with this film I don’t know what to say.
He came in at the last minute to try and salvage Zack Snyder’s mess. I’d bet the only good/charming parts in that movie are from the Whedon reshoots.
DC put all their eggs in Snyder’s basket and he nearly ruined their entire attempt at a film universe. Fortunately Patty Jenkins/Gal Gadot and the Aquaman team seem to have been mostly left alone to make decent movies (the final battle that looked oh so snyder-esque in WW notwithstanding), so perhaps they are somewhat learning from their mistakes.
Justice League was doomed from the get-go when they hired Snyder. Who would have thought that a slightly more skilled Ed Wood with a billion dollar budget would create two shit movies and 2/3rds of a shit movie?
Justice League was doomed from the get-go when they hired Snyder. Who would have thought that a slightly more skilled Ed Wood with a billion dollar budgetwould create two shit movies and 2/3rds of a shit movie?WB/DC was doomed from the moment Snyder was hired for Man of Steel. They should have thrown a bunch of money at Nolan or had him name a successor of sorts to boot the universe. Instead they got a guy who goes for style over substance and shits all over the characters – or at least can’t write around a cohesive story around a character that’s been around for 80 years.I think the ideas were there, just poorly executed and a lot of unnecessary garbage because they wanted to have Russel Crowe or something.
After Comicsgate and the hate towards Brie Larson, Snyder is probably too good and pure for comic book movies.
He just cheated on his wife. Thats shitty, but thats his business, and his ex-wife’s, he doesn’t need to be “me-too’d”.
I mean, this is actually hilarious now that the guy who wants Snyder out, Kevin Tsujihara is himself out from WB because he offered jobs to actresses in exchange for sex just like Whedon was said to do.
Well who the hell asked her?!
– The AV Club?!
You ain’t the only one Patty.
Only 2 years after everyone else thought the same thing.
My favourite behind-the-scene dirt about Aquaman is the test screening coordinator revealing that people who made the movie thought that Joss Whedon ruined Aquaman with his writing in Justice League so they consulted Zack Snyder behind WB’s back to get the characterization back on track. The lack of sexist jokes and immature out-of-place humor in Aquaman is one big indication of this. Even if the people behind WW84 did not talk with Snyder, I can safely say there will likely be no boob-plant scenes in the movie.
Lol. Sure they did.
It’s mentioned in this podcast.http://fireandwaterpodcast.com/podcast/fire-water-223/Summary:https://screenrant.com/aquaman-zack-snyder-joss-whedon-justice-league-changes/
So I’m personally not going to trust the insider information of the “Actor who ran the test screenings”. Anyways I though the Aquaman joke when he had the lasso on him was funny. It’s also worth mentioning that Whedon’s wheel house isn’t “teenage boy” humor. He does love his dialog and he does let the characters speak in voices that would suit who they are. No one is hitting on Black Widow in either of his Avengers movies. And those objectifying woman in his other works are either bad guys or assholes.Anways I think Aquaman being a “dude bro” who would be distracted by how Wonder Woman looks actualy fits the character the DC had crafted at the time You can read his interaction with Mera as him learning from his time around Wonder Woman in Justice League. Or you can do what Aquaman did and just forget Justice League ever happened because it’s a hot mess Find out for me which of those directors was responsible for “My Man!” And then we can discuss who to never let touch a Superhero movie again.
Are we supposed to take the word of a dipshit who compares people who thinks people who don’t like a shitty movie are equivalent to bigots?It’s one thing to like Zach Snyder movies. It’s quite another to act like you’re being oppressed for liking it.
I agree that the guy is dubious at best, but he’s not wrong about the Aquaman thing. It’s been heavily talked about in comics-movies communities for a while.
Ok fair enough. I’m not disagreeing that it happened, just that I’m not taking the word of the OP. Was unaware of the Aquaman bit though.
Yeah. Probably not as exaggerated as the guy said it, but apparently Whedon’s JL rewrites and reshoots kind of screwed a lot of things.
Screwed things from what? You do not get someone to come in and rewrite your movie and have them make it more convoluted than it already was. I honestly can’t believe that some people still think that a Snyder Cut would be anyway better than what we got. They did see the other piles of shite he created right?
Screwed things from what had been planned? Wan and Jenkins apparently already had the script for their movies in the works during JL’s reshoots, and the reshoots messed up things on their end, too.No one said anything about a Snyder Cut. You’re projecting things. I don’t see why you need to act so defensive.
The Snyder cut bit was aimed at Syafiqjabar of Mars, the guy at the top of the thread, who is doing his damndest to defend Snyder and his vision up and down this comment section.
The thing that makes me slightly dubious about the claim is that Aquaman’s filming and the Justice League reshoots were being done co-currently. Aquaman started filming on May 2nd 2017, wheras it was announced on May 22nd 2017 that Joss Whedon would be taking over production of JL and overseeing reshoots which began in June.)Which really doesn’t lineup with the guy talking about it like Aquaman went into production after JL had been released- and changes only coming about much later in reshoots. (Wheras from what James Wan has been saying for awhile, I’m inclined to believe that his version of the character was always going to be his own take.)
Wait I’m lost, what does anything he said has to do with acting oppressed for liking the DCCU? Or were you referencing his sources?
I mean I dislike what Snyder has done as much as the next guy, but it seems to me that if there’s one thing he’s actually better than Whedon at, it’s not making stupid sexual jokes about Wonder Woman so what Syafiqjabar is saying sort of makes sense to me.
I love the theory that Justice League isn’t any good because the guy who made two other shitty DC movies wasn’t involved enough.Despite it being way less shitty than the last shitty DC team up movie. Joss Whedon shouldn’t be writing lines for fully functional adults but he wasn’t the reason the movie was so bad. It was always going to be bad.
I love the theory that Justice League isn’t any good because the guy who made two other shitty DC movies wasn’t involved enough.AND that it was really the fault of the director who turned The Avengers into a $1.5 billion success story. Yeah, OK, right.
‘lack of immature out-of-place humor’ did you…watch aquaman? they basically roll out the red carpet for a piss joke.
What other hot takes does Patty Jenkins have?Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another episode of Friends for a while.
Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another Blade Runner movie for a while.
Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another McDonald’s Monopoly promotion for a while.
Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another saxophonist as President for a while.
Jenkins is WRONG. There needs to be another Justice League and another Man of Steel in the near future. The problem with Justice League was a horrible script. (As is the problem with most bad movies.)
Here’s a challenge: describe Steppenwolf, the villain from ‘Justice League’, going only on what is provided in the movie. Who is he, what’s his motivation, what are the features of his personality? Can anyone do more than a few words? I know he want the Mother Boxes, but why? This was, I think, the biggest problem with the movie: you team up the most iconic characters in the DC universe and get them to fight some guy who you can barely remember as you’re watching him on screen.
…Yeah. Like Desaad, Granny Goodness, Even freaking Kalibak would have been better in the mindless monster role.Or just a better earthbound villain who could be revealed to be working for Darkseid.
You could have easily reveal that Lex is not Lex but Glorious Godfrey. He even looks like him with hair already.
D.C. really put the cart before the horse with J.L. They were limping into their big team-up film on the back of one positively received movie featuring the third highest billed character and a couple of critical flops. They then picked a villain who was obviously chosen solely to set up a better liked villain in a future sequel. The hubris there is crazy.
Despite clearly trying to build a cinematic empire, even Marvel didn’t do that. Cap, Iron Man, and Thor all had middling to positive critical reception. Loki and Ultron have cachet with comic nerds and longtime Avengers fans apart from the Thanos foreshadowing. I’m not going to pretend Marvel didn’t have their eye on future sequels by that point or that they succeeded in every movie, but there at least seemed to some consciousness that if the intermediate films suck, no one’s going to stick around for the denouement. There’s no reason DC couldn’t have done Starro the Conqueror or the Legion of Doom for some throwback fun with a Darkseid teaser at the end. You only pick Steppenwolf if “setting up the franchise” is several levels above “don’t be shit” in the mission statement.I resist the urge to pin J.L.’s failure on any one thing because the whole exercise seemed forced from the jump and cynical even for a franchise film.
They definitely rushed it…not to mention the studio seriously gimped the production due to one bad movie – Batman V Superman…they were way too far into the cinematic universe to make that hard left on Snyder’s vision…it would have been much easier to allow him to do Batman V Superman in his vision, finish JL his way, and use the tone of Wonder Woman, Aquaman and other planned movies to change the overall direction of the franchise….that would also have allowed Snyder to fall in line properly with the second Man of Steel movie (if that was still their direction).
I remember when I watch Justice League: The new Frontier, my thought was just do this story in a modern setting. You could flesh out characters more by adding to its 75 minute run time. It would have been more interesting than Justice League.
D.C. really put the cart before the horse with J.L. They were limping into their big team-up film on the back of one positively received movie featuring the third highest billed character and a couple of critical flops. [snip] (T)he whole exercise seemed forced from the jump and cynical even for a franchise film.That’s the weird thing. They put the cart before the course AFTER everything aside from Wonder Woman basically flopped (or at least underperformed), with Marvel giving a successful blueprint they pretty much ignored, and virtually everybody predicting this was the likely result. And they basically just went ahead with it anyway…hoping for the best?
It seems like they just ignored some basic tenets of storytelling.
“Cap, Iron Man, and Thor all had middling to positive critical reception.”I’ll give you Cap and Thor on “middling to positive”, but Iron Man was universally praised and became the template for the modern superhero film genre.
This. This is why the CW Arrowverse succeeds as a whole. Individually, each show is weak to okay at best (apart from the first 2 years where Arrow and Flash absolutely shined eerily close to Netflix territory good). But for the few long time fans who put up with it, the time we’ve spent and gotten to know these heroes and villians is what makes it worth it to the fans who stick around. And really, there was no reason to rush all of this. It’s true that one day the superhero genre will die out, and it makes me sad that we’ll one day reach that point. But for now, the genre is more alive than ever. A series of really good films would have made a huge difference and given DC some credibility. And that starts by fleshing out each character and highlighting each one with a director capable of each one. Zack Snyder could have lead the general direction, but they could have given Superman to a more hopeful, cheerful director. Batman fits Snyder’s style and Jenkins nailed Wonder Woman’s film by capturing what makes her great and adding her own feel to the film (though there is a slight comparison to The First Avenger, but not alot). Hell, even James Wan gave Aquaman his own feel while staying true to what’s left of the DCEU.
Here’s what I propose: what if we make Aquaman a soft reboot? Add Wonder Woman and maybe some characters from Suicide Squad (mainly Will Smith’s Deadshot and Margot Robbie’s Harley Quinn) and just go from there. Pretend JL, Man of Steel, Suicide Squad and BvS never existed. Hell, if Marvel can replace a main character and get away with it and Disney could obliterated nearly all of the background of Star Wars (though you can argue the success of that one) I see no reason why we can’t do that here.
The “You will all love me” line is about the only one that points at an interesting motivation, but it’s not filled out and mostly makes sense in context of anti-life in the comics.
Honestly, the way I describe Steppenwolf is: A tall, strong guy with no actual characterization who happens to be made from bad computer graphics and who basically copies Loki’s role from Avengers. Instead of 1 magic box, he seeks 3. He can somehow teleport directly to one box, nearby another, and just appear in a general possible location of the last. His greatest feat in the film is using brute force to plow through the same Amazons who have been shown to have issues with fighting generic WW1 soldiers. While he also has an insectoid army, they can apparently turn on him when he feels fear. All it takes for him to feel fear is to break his weapon, which thanks to a lack of characterization, isn’t noted to be unbreakable or made of some exotic material that indicates it’s any tougher than a basic steel stave.
In other words, Steppenwolf is bland incarnate.
The mother boxes play a very important role in the comics..I believe the idea was to show Steppenwolf try hard to attain them but ultimately fail purposely so that it could lead the way for Darkseid to enter the picture. Just like they showed Thanos in the MCU prior to Infinity War but didn’t give away his reasoning for the infinity stones until Infinity War was actually released…in Justice League, they gave back stories on how powerful the mother boxes were and how they were split up to prevent possible disaster (think Thanos finger snap)…I’m pretty sure Justice League 2 would have shown all the DC heros fighting Darkseid to prevent a global or cosmic disaster enacted by collection of the mother boxes…. however, it was rushed and we never got proper origin stories or a build up on the DC characters…no super hero team up works unless the audience is emotionally invested in the characters on screen. Marvel spent many years getting people to fall in love with Thor, Iron Man, Captain America and the rest before putting them on the screen together…DC didn’t do this properly.
Here’s a challenge: describe Steppenwolf…To play devil’s advocate, the same claims (don’t know their motivation, or their background, etc.) can be made against the Joker in TDK and yet that was one of the things that made his character even more compelling.Beyond that I can’t comment as I never bothered to see Justice League.
joker at least had brand awareness.
the same claims (don’t know their motivation, or their background, etc.) can be made against the Joker in TDKSure, maybe TDK’s Joker had his own motivation/background, but it’s not like that was the Joker’s first cinematic appearance. Anyone who’s watched a Batman film/cartoon in the last 40 years has an idea who he is. No one had any idea who Steppenwolf was when he hit the big screen.
That’s where your comparison falls apart.
My comparison was spot on. The fact that everybody already knew who the Joker was is where the argument of the person I was responding to falls apart. Again, reread his comment.
Uh, I think people can describe the character of the Joker from TDK quite well. He’s one of the most recognizable characters in the last few decades of film, his mannerisms and catch phrases still linger in pop culture. Whereas Steppenwolf…doesn’t. He was a generic bad guy who left your memory the moment he was off screen.
He’s one of the most recognizable characters in the last few decades of filmNone of which applies to the discussion at hand. Again, I just pointed out how the Joker from TDK fits the same description in the post I responded to.
Everything I wrote applies exactly to that conversation actually. Joker and his motivations “sometimes someone just wants to watch the world burn” are quite well known and quoted. His personality is extremely well known. Your comparison was bad, take the L my friend…take the L.
His personality is extremely well known. describe Steppenwolf, the villain from ‘Justice League’, going only on what is provided in the movie. Feel free to rectify these two inconsistencies in your argument. You are claiming the Joker works because his character was already really well known. But somehow you are trying to use that to defend a comment telling the reader to only use the information contained within the plot of the movie…But go beyond that. I would argue that Heath Ledger’s portrayal of the Joker would have still been a smashing success even if nobody had ever heard of the character prior to TDK. Do you disagree?
His personality IN THE MOVIE. I didn’t say “his personality, across various forms of media”. We are talking specifically about TDK, so I don’t know why you are pretending I’m talking about other things. And your second paragraph here is further gibberish…we are talking about Steppenwolf’s characterization in Justice League vs Joker in TDK. you are arguing against yourself here. Yes, Heath Ledger’s portrayal would have been a success…because like I said, and like you seemed to deny, his character, personality and motivations were expressed clearly, whereas Steppenwolfs were not. (if you want to keep arguing, go back to my first reply, where I explicitly only mention the movies we are talking about. Take the L)
The Joker from TDK, in addition to a great perormance by the aftor, was riding on the long-term, very fleshed out arch rivalry between himselr and Batman. I think the number of people who saw that film, who didn’t know who he was already, was less than 1%. And his character, specifically, has no real back story, no real motivation, etc. He spring forth from the brow of Batman, and they have been at each other since.
The Joker from TDK, in addition to a great perormance by the aftor, was ridingon the long-term, very fleshed out arch rivalry between himselr and Batman. I think the number of people who saw that film, who didn’t know who he was already, was less than 1%.Agreed. All valid arguments in support of my devil’s argument. The Joker from TDK was a known figure prior to the movie therefore one didn’t need to look at only his backstory just from the movie. Further, the performance by the actor was very good, which also argues that a fleshing out a full backstory in the movie is not needed to make a compelling villain (which was the inferred argument I was rebutting.)
I thought the Joker was pretty easy to understand.
“You know what I noticed, nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying.”
“Introduce a little anarchy and everything becomes chaos. I’m an agent of chaos. Oh and the thing about chaos is, it’s fair.”
“I don’t want to kill you. What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers. No. No. You complete me.”
Joker’s thesis is easy to understand: people are inherently evil and the only way to deal with this is to scrap the rules because nothing is worth saving.
It works because it contrasts with Bruce: people may not be great but they are worth saving because they can believe in something better.
Justice League failed in large part because in no way did the League have much of a character conflict with Steppenwolf. There’s no clash of personalities or ideologies. It’s just stop the bad guy trying to take over the world while Batman is inexplicably mean to everybody.
Justice League failed in large part because in no way did the League have much of a character conflict with Steppenwolf.Fair enough. But this theory you are giving is not the same as the theory I responded to.
Huh. You’re right. Mea culpa.
Actually Steppenwolf gets more background info. He had that whole CGI-Wikipedia narrated by Diana.
To play devil’s advocate, the same claims (don’t know their motivation, or their background, etc.) can be made against the Joker in TDK and yet that was one of the things that made his character even more compelling.I think there are two main differences.
First, the Joker is seeded enough in the public’s conscious where you can get away with that a bit more overall. There’s a cultural awareness of who it is, more or less, so for many audience members we bring that to the table. Plus that ambiguity is part of his appeal, although I still think we had enough to get a grasp of the character.
Second, I think the Joker was explained pretty well for who he was. Joker is a less convoluted character. He’s a psychopath and an anarchist. He also got several scenes where he explained his motivations from his perspective. That coupled with Michael Caine’s speech about the jewel thief and how some people just want to watch the world burn gave plenty of insights into him. They also made his inconsistent backstories insightful into some possible traumatic past as well as hinting at other things.Steppenwolf…he just seemed forgettable. I didn’t know much about him from the comics. He was not compelling. Nothing about his motives really made much sense to me other than as obvious plot points. Plus, on his own he did not resonate. He just seemed like an obvious set up for other villains people are more interested in. So he was neither fleshed out enough, did not give the audience much guidance to fill in the gaps mentally the way Joker did in The Dark Knight, and did not make him compelling enough for us to really care all that much. He was basically Darkseid Lite. Overall, Justice League just was not a very good movie for a lot of reasons.
the Joker is seeded enough in the public’s conscious where you can get away with that a bit more overall. There’s a cultural awareness of who it is, Fair enough. But reread the original post I responded to. I didn’t quote the whole comment in my first post, but I will here… describe Steppenwolf, the villain from ‘Justice League’, going only on what is provided in the movie. Who is he, what’s his motivation, what are the features of his personality? Can anyone do more than a few words?I simply pointed out that the Joker meets the same criteria he put forth. (The implicit argument being that maybe it is more than just what he is claiming.)
Except that even just working from TDK, you know who the Joker is—he’s a madman who’s trying to prove that anyone can become a murderer under the right circumstances. You know his motivations and his personality almost immediately, he’s a sadistic trickster figure who’s trying to use his pranks to teach the “lesson” that human life is valueless and everyone is, deep down, just as damaged and murderous as he is. You don’t need to know his origin story to know those things, they’re all right there in the film.Whereas Steppenwolf is… that guy with the axe who wants to grab the MacGuffins to turn the world into Black Oozy Place. He could literally be search-and-replaced with any other Fourth World character and nothing would change about the film. He is a placeholder saying, “Insert more interesting character here.” His personality doesn’t ever drive the film, because he doesn’t have one. He’s just a bland minion with a cool weapon.
I can’t argue the point of Steppenwolf, as I’ve said, I didn’t see the movie. But it sounds like you are claiming the character failed because he was an all-around uninteresting character. Not because you didn’t know who he was or what his motivations were.With that said, I would argue that yes you know full well what the Joker’s actions are, but you never know what the Joker’s motivation is, beyond the possibility of straight up sadism. They even toyed with it in TDK by having the character take a piss on people by giving them a different story every time someone asked him about his face. That’s one of the things that made his character compelling, that you didn’t know his motivation.Anyway, as I said, just played devil’s advocate. I never saw the movie and I have no interest in seeing it. Take it easy and have a good one.
Um… no. You’re wrong. You’re confusing “backstory” with “motivation”. I can write a story where a character walks into a bakery and instantly starts salivating the second he sees a donut. He presses his face up to the counter, drool smearing the glass as he gazes with naked avarice at the donut. He empties his pockets… but he has only a few pennies. You know nothing about this character before he walked into this shop, not even his name, but you instantly know his motivation because it’s unveiled in the story I’m telling.Likewise with the Joker. Yes, you don’t know his history, but everything he does—every single act he takes in the movie, from his grand overarching scheme to lure people onto the ferries and hand them each other’s detonators to the tiniest details of “recruiting” his gang—is there to provide other human beings with a situation that causes them to murder others. It’s his motivation. You would have to literally not be paying the slightest bit of attention to the film to fail to understand that he wants to get people to murder each other. He makes speeches about it. He works tirelessly to engineer it. He in fact achieves it at the end, with Harvey Dent. There’s absolutely no mystery about it at all. And crucially, it is a motivation that is unique to him. You couldn’t slot the Riddler or the Scarecrow or Killer Moth in there and get the same movie, because the motivations are those of the Joker and the Joker alone.That isn’t true of Steppenwolf. You’re just plain wrong.
I simply pointed out that the Joker meets the same criteria he put forth. (The implicit argument being that maybe it is more than just what he is claiming.)It’s an interesting discussion point. I would likely agree with you except for two things.
First, personally I felt we got a pretty good idea what Joker’s motivations were. Quite simply, from what I took from it, he wanted chaos and to show the dark side of people. We got that from what he said, what he did, and Alfred’s speech about the jewel thief in the jungle. Joker is a psychopath who enjoys the chaos he spreads, hence why when he got his share of the money near the end he burned it.
Second, Heath Ledger just did a good job of evoking the emotions of the character and making a much bigger impression on the audience than Steppenwolf. I think had we gotten more of a connection with Steppenwolf we could have filled in some of the blanks with regards to what his motives were or his background. And I suppose they gave us some of the pieces in the movie. But we see more of that with Joker through his actions, his dialogue with others, how he responds to things that Batman does and how he tries to turn people bad (which sort of echoes back to Killing Joke but he explains enough of that for us to get his motives).
So it is an interesting discussion, however personally I felt like I got much more of Joker’s motives and personality than I did from Steppenwolf based solely on how they were represented in the movies.
Except that the mysterious nature of The Joker in TDK is the entire point. Steppenwolf is just a misfire. There isn’t a mystery around him, just a void of character.
Fair enough. But this only reinforces the argument that just “not knowing” the backstory of an antagonist isn’t enough, in itself, to make that antagonist fail as a character. Or put another way, to say that the character lacks mystery and/or is void of character is not the same thing as saying the viewer is disinterested because they are not given a proper backstory within the plot of the movie.
The Joker had personality, though. Plus, even non comic fans know Joker. I was a comic book reader for years and i had no clue who this fuckin guy was.
Yes, but that goes along with my argument.
You might better be able to make the comparison if you had seen JL, because it’s quite clear how little personality Steppenwolf gets. The thing is, I can describe the Joker in several ways: he’s a terrorist, a habitual liar (constantly changing the stories about how he got his scars), an ingenious if erratic planner; he has a sick sense of humour (“Very poor choice of words!”), a tendency to lose his temper if people accuse him of being insane, a belief system (“Upset the established order and everything becomes chaos”), no interest in money but a big interest in blowing things up; and most of all, he has a clear relationship with the protagonist (“You complete me!”) that feeds into his motivation – he wants to prove to Batman that the only way to live is without rules.
You might better be able to make the comparison if you had seen JLIt’s not a big deal. It was only a comment. In truth I only clicked on the article to see a bigger picture of that blue dress…
Trying to compare Steppenwolf and the Joker isn’t playing devil’s advocate, it’s being intentially blind and/or stupid.
Yeah, that was a poor choice…
Well, he sure had a helmet with big horns on it. Yep.
I forgot that was his name in the movie.
I’ve failed your challenge, as I haven’t even seen Justice League. Or, does that in fact mean I’ve won?
To paraphrase RLM: Unlike Zod, who’s goal was to teraform Earth into his home planet using a magic blue laser….Steppenwolf’s plan is to teraform Earth into his home planet using a magic blue laser.
That was the bad guys name? I couldn’t even remember the plot of the movie. What’s a mother box?
Well, it’s not quite a mother, and it’s not quite a box, but oh man …
Bad.Done.
He’s just a mook. He’s possibly Jack Kirby’s least interesting character; the movie would have been about twice as interesting with Glorious Godfrey.
It’s the Hollywood “group-think”. Once Marvel did well with their Extended Universe, then everyone had to have one. DC…Universal. Even inconsistent directors Shymalan jumped into the fray. And I think studios were so afraid of box office fatigue – or being seen as a follower – that they rushed out JL.The differences are pretty stark (pun intended). Take Iron Man, who was first introduced a decade ago, and whose character appeared in a bevy of movies. We see him go through multiple character arcs, and develop a stake in the character. With DC, you get Batman who basically broods his way through his appearances, and a Superman who seems to lack nuance or development.It’s also telling that Marvel is outplaying DC with mostly second-tier comic book characters. When heavyweights like Batman and Superman cannot outdraw Iron Man, then you best withdraw gracefully.
Wait. Aquamans “unclear” position in the Justice League timeline? I’m pretty sure it takes place after Justice League. Mera even mentions in the movie that Aquaman was one of the heroes that defeated Steppenwolf
Funnily enough neither do the rest of us.
the fact that they were already shooting justice league before bvs came out really speaks to how hilarious this whole thing has been
So far DC is still trying to course correct the Murderverse, which is probably the best move. They need to get a set of characters to where they need to be, then come in with a JL movie that raises the bar.
On the other hand, there is a part of me that thinks embracing the Murderverse to set up a full blown Injustice/Justice Lords universe would be fascinating. That would easily be enough to set itself apart from the Marvel universe.
Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another Justice League for a whileThat’s okay Patty, neither do we.
I am also totally fine with this. Take all the time you need, Warner Bros.
I guess it would have been blasphemous to set the second movie in 1975.
I am convinced that Bill Mahr (Who of course works for HBO) was sitting in a room at work waiting for an executive meeting or his dealer and ended up watching the last half hour of Justice League that plays on the TVs there.His rant about glowing objects in superhero movies last week seems like the direct result of watching Justice League. His opinions of Superhero films makes a lot more sense if you realize his only exposure is DC films that play on an endless loop around him as he travels around his office.
Personally, I want to see another Green Lantern movie. I rather liked the first one even though it’s touted as a really bad film, but Batman And Robin was a really bad film. Compared to it, GL was merely a misfire. I would like the new GL film to be about Hal Jordan recruiting John Stewart for the Corps and both of them battling with Sinestro.
Patty Jenkins doesn’t want there to be another She’s not the only one.