UPDATED: Prop gun fired by Alec Baldwin that killed crew member contained “live” bullet, IATSE says
According to new reports, the fatal accident on set of new Western Rust involved a prop master who was not a member of the local union
Aux News Alec Baldwin
News broke yesterday about a fatal accident on the set of a new Western starring Alec Baldwin. Initial reports detailed the death of an unidentified crew member after a prop gun misfired during shooting on the New Mexico set; soon, it was revealed that Baldwin had discharged the gun, and along with injuries sustained by director Joel Souza, cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was the victim, pronounced dead at nearby University of New Mexico hospital.
Now, new updates to the incident include the fact that a live bullet had somehow been inside the prop gun discharged by Baldwin. As reported by IndieWire, IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent out an email to its members announcing that the prop gun used in the scene being filmed contained a “live round.” Additionally, the union noted that the production’s prop master was not a member of Local 44.
Many details of the incident remain unknown, but the Santa Fe Sheriff’s Department confirmed that Baldwin was questioned by authorities and then released. No charges have been filed, and the incident remains under investigation. “We’re trying to determine right now how and what type of projectile was used in the firearm,” according to Sheriff’s Office spokesman Juan Rios.
This news contradicts the initial statement made by the film’s production to The Hollywood Reporter, which stated that the fatal shooting involved “the misfire of a prop gun with blanks.” Thus far, the production has not released any further comments about the accident.
IATSE Local 44 Secretary-Treasurer Anthony Pawluc termed the event “an accidental weapons discharge”: “A live single round was accidentally fired on set by the principal actor, hitting both the Director of Photography, Local 600 member Halnya Hutchins, and Director Joel Souza… Local 44 has confirmed that the Props, Set Decoration, Special Effects and Construction Departments were staffed by New Mexico crew members. There were no Local 44 members on the call sheet.”
Halyna Hutchins graduated from AFI in 2015, was named one of American Cinematographer’s Rising Stars of 2019, and had been posting pictures from the shoot to her social media account. The International Cinematographers Guild released a short statement regarding the DP’s death: “This is a terrible loss, and we mourn the passing of a member of our Guild’s family.” We will continue to update this story as further details come to light.
[Updated: 10/22] Alec Baldwin has commented on the accident via Twitter. In a series of tweets, he wrote, “There are no words to convey my shock and sadness regarding the tragic accident that took the life of Halyna Hutchins, a wife, mother and deeply admired colleague of ours. I’m fully cooperating with the police investigation to address how this tragedy occurred.”
He added, “I am in touch with her husband, offering my support to him and his family. My heart is broken for her husband, their son, and all who knew and loved Halyna.”
407 Comments
Jesus, that’s… horrible. Who the fuck brings live ammunition to a film set? Someone clearly didn’t do their job.
Well, from the article, it’s a job they shouldn’t have had or been doing — so that checks out.And, again, this is why I still think we may see rank and file IATSE vote down the deal and we’ll have a strike (this is good if that’s what they want).
“it’s a job they shouldn’t have had or been doing”I thought local 44 was for props people in the LA area – if you’re using local crew for a non-California production, can they be members as well?
It looks like union members in New Mexico would belong to local 480. The article isn’t clear whether the ones on set are union or not, just that they’re not local 44.
I read that the crew member who handled the prop gun was not a union member from New Mexico or LA but of course that isn’t as uncommon as many would think.
I think 480 is the NM version — but you’d think that they would mention that if that was the case?
Not every state has it’s own union(s) for film/tv productions. the IA has an “Area Standards” agreement for those states. However,in right-to-work states, non-union people can work on those productions.
This sounds like it could reach criminal levels. I hope the people responsible are prosecuted.
Probably a dealer of antique firearms, possibly one whom they found locally in New Mexico and who had no experience selling to film productions. Whoever delivered it likely didn’t bother to make sure it was empty and just assumed the prop master would take care of it.
I’ve never had a gun dealer sell me a loaded weapon, but I suppose it’s possible.
The industry doesn’t buy guns, it rents them. I can see some local guy accidentally supplying a loaded weapon for rental, especially if his shop also has a gun range attached, where guns can be readily rented (and most dealers include a magazine or two of ammunition to be used in the range). Sadly it is not an industry practice to provide the gun, an empty magazine and loose ammunition and have the customer load it themselves, so they can increase the customer throughput to increase revenue.
I… am gonna say we should probably not speculate too much until we know what the hell went wrong, because something clearly did.
Are there antique firearm dealers whose primary focus is on their profession’s ‘antique’ descriptor, but less on the ‘firearm’ part—and all liability, regulatory, and safety precautions that come with it?I’ve worked at businesses that deal firearms and ammunition and I’ve worked at businesses that deal in antique and vintage wares. But I’ve never worked anywhere there was an overlap. However, I have worked for a firearms and ammunition dealer that would occasionally come into possession of an antique firearm for the purpose of selling them. The owner, manager, and clerk on-shift, all had to cooperatively verify and sign off on documentation indicating the firearm was not loaded. Both at the store’s point of reception/purchase and at point of sale to the customer. This process was the same we followed for our usual firearm sales as well.
For revolvers — so you can see bullets in the exposed part of the cylinder.This story got me reading up on how Brandon Lee died. The prop handlers had emptied the powder from .44 magnum rounds, then put the bullets back on the cartridge, for a scene where they needed a close-up of an actor firing a revolver. But they forgot to remove the primer, and the action was enough to push the .44 round into the barrel, where it got stuck.Later on, the same weapon was used in a scene where a character fires the gun at Lee from a distance of about 12-15 feet. That time, the gun was loaded with blanks. But because the gun hadn’t been properly inspected after the earlier shoot, the .44 bullet was still in the barrel, and the blank fired a normal amount of propellent from a magnum cartridge, effectively the same as firing a live round at Lee.After that happened, you’d think prop shops would build out some realistic looking faux-bullets that can’t possibly fire for close-ups of revolvers, rather than ever risk having live ammo even on set, yet here we are.
After that happened, you’d think prop shops would build out some realistic looking faux-bullets that can’t possibly fire for close-ups of revolvers,This. Hell I have dry-fire rounds for both my gun and the wife’s. They’re red but it’d be easy enough to paint them.
This was my first thought as well. Paint the slug, and paint the head.
Exactly. Why aren’t there barbell-shaped fake bullets that look real when viewed from the end inside a revolver, but are obviously not real bullets when handled?
Another sad fact – according to The Wikipedias Brandon Lee survived the gunshot and emergency surgery but died of intravascular coagulopathy a few days later. That was in the early 90s, and in the late 90s trauma surgeons (by way of army medics) identified transfusion regimens that reduced post-gunshot coagulopathy, which would’ve given him a much better chance. It’s a shame, obviously.
I wonder if the transfusion hesitancy was due to the then HIV panic.
I doubt transfusion hesitancy was even an issue because of the nature of and treatment for DIC. After treating the primary cause — in Lee’s case the gunshot injury — the treatment for acute DIC was and still is platelets, clotting factors and fibrinogen. Because the normal process of the body healing itself has gone haywire, the main issue is to get both the abnormal clotting and bleeding under control. Yes the blood volume will need replacing but, if the blood just pours out the minute you put it in, that is not going to be the least bit of help to the patient, and the volume can be supported (temporarily) by fluids other than blood.
DIC – Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation (which is intravascular coagulopathy) is a secondary disorder brought on by the original illness or injury — the patient develops multiple small blood clots in some areas, while bleeding out in others. The treatment consists of correcting the cause (in Lee’s case the original gunshot wound was the cause) and administering platelet replacement, coagulation factors and fibrinogen (all of which were available in 1993). I suspect, due to the extent of Lee’s injury, he developed severe rapidly evolving DIC, which is a very serious life threatening emergency. I’ve seen this happen when I worked ICU and you have no idea how fast things can go south with DIC, or how hard it can be to turn it around and save the patient’s life (even now). Some patients literally bleed out everywhere because the blood simply cannot clot due to the multiple small clots using up all of the body’s clotting factors.
“prop shops would build out some realistic looking faux-bullets that can’t possibly fire for close-ups of revolvers”My understanding is that those (dummy bullets with no propellant or primer at all) already existed at the time of Lee’s shooting, but for some reason (forgot them, didn’t realize they’d need them, whatever), there weren’t any on set, so the props team made their own from real bullets, forgetting to remove the primer.
It was cheaper to empty out actual ammunition and make blanks out of them, rather than pay for dummy ammo and professionally-done blanks.If you have a gun reloading kit, making your own blanks is easy — my college best friend made them for our productions by using empty casings, putting in a primer, when wadding a bit of flash paper to replace the bullet. Unless you shot somebody at point-blank range, the flash paper would burn out within a couple feet of leaving the muzzle so you got the sound, and what looked a bit like a tracer for a second.The one time we did a close-up gunshot, I directed the actors to tussle with an unloaded gun (yes, I checked first) in such a way as to hide the weapon itself, then the actor getting shot snapped his head back and burst a packet of ketchup between his teeth to simulate bleeding. We dubbed in a gunshot, and it looked…pretty convincing….
Prop shops do make dummy rounds. Film armory services will also supply their own. That’s what completely confounding about the idea of any live rounds somehow making their way on set. There’s really no way it should be possible. It requires a stunning amount of negligence.
You mean something like 3D printing the bullets of TPU with minimal structural infill, so if an accident like this does happen, it isn’t any worse than being slapped in the face with one of those floppy silicone baking pans? Hell, they could do the same thing with the primer cups, so they empty out the propellant, and put the TPU primer in, and then the round looks absolutely real, but functions exactly like a snap cap? Yeah, sure they’ll have to give these TPU bits a paint treatment, but if Adam Savage has demonstrated anything, it is the fact that special effects and props people can do incredible paint work in a matter of minutes.
They do: they’re called “dummy” bullets, use for close-ups of cast loading a gun or cartridge according to this prop master. 2 minute-plus mark in.It’s also supposed to go through a chain of review from the prop master to special effects to the AD to the actors themselves.
If it’s true that Alec Baldwin was joking on set and thought he was firing blanks at them. He’s still in a lot of trouble. Blanks or not that’s irresponsible behavior on set while holding a gun. Lawsuits and maybe even charges are coming his way.
This story comes to mind…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum
I haven’t seen reports that was the case. There are a thousand different ways this could have happened. And things like this are always the fault of the crew members in charge of firearms on set. It’s 2021 though so why are blanks still being used? Half the time the post department has to add muzzle flashes anyway because the blank gun flash didn’t sync with the camera shutter. And why can’t someone manufacture prop guns that recoil and simulate a flame without ejecting a shell?
This is the report I saw…
I sincerely hope this isn’t how it went down… The accident is awful enough but this adds an even more disturbing element to the tragedy.
That’s a proven fake, notice how no one posting it links to an article.
An unsourced picture from a Tweet? Yeah, I’ll need more than that.
Hey I don’t want it to be true. So I hope you’re right.
Wait, wait, wait… you still think that David Awfulbot from 4chan might be an investigative journalist?Your lies get posted immediately, and the corrections stay in the grays. Great job, Kinja!
That tweet contains zero link to a source, and googling the quotes from it returns no results. It should be blatantly obvious from those two factors alone that it’s fake.If that’s not enough, Snopes has an article debunking it already: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/alec-baldwin-shooting-incident/
Like a second and a half of research…https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/alec-baldwin-shooting-incident/
Cool fake news, good job spreading it
“report”nice. looks legit. man twitter is a cesspool.
I had missed this, and he’s a co-producer (I commented on jez a bit ago with sympathy that I still have, but wondered if he was only involved as an actor).
If he’s a co-producer, I want to know why set conditions are what they are:
…and I want to know why anyone would ever joke around with a gun on set.
To be clear, this is absolutely horrifying and I feel MOST for the victims but still do feel for Alec, because of course he didn’t intend to hurt anyone. But why would ANYONE be potentially bringing in non-union armorers, why would set conditions be this awful, why why why?
It would definitely bring an awful Coen Brothers vibe to the whole thing
You fucking idiot. That’s 4chan bullshit. You’re either a complete moron who doesn’t check his sources or a Trump supporter.
STFU the guy who thinks he’s elite on internet. DATS 4CHAN! DURRR!!! Hahaha! If you think I’m with Trump you’re a fucking idiot. Read my postings. That’s why your post is pending. You’re not worthy.
I would just kindly suggest that if you don’t want people to assume you’re with Trump, don’t act like his supporters. You posted a Tweet from a self-proclaimed Trump supporter that was a sourceless bunch of words and called it a “report.” What you did is a textbook example of how Trumpers spread misinformation and why this world is shit. Be better.
he IS a trumper. hes a shitlord troll on this site. he should be banned, but there are trump supporting idiot editors on this site.
same thing
Dear god, that’s messed up and it’s the exact same kind of dumbass tomfoolery that killed Jon-Erik Hexum. Holy shit, guns aren’t fucking toys, even in a movie shoot.
This is not a thing that happens on any movie or TV set with professionals. Prop firearms are handled seriously as they are real firearms, and people don’t go around “joke” shooting at each other.This is obviously not true, someone already linked to the Snopes page on it- but if it were, and even if it had been a prop gun with just blanks and no one really got shot, he would be in A LOT of trouble. Pointing and firing a gun at someone is not a workplace joke and would be obscenely unprofessional and threatening behavior.
oh fuck off. what sort of people do you follow? DELETE YOUR TWITTER AND NEVER GO BACK!
I agree special prop guns can and should be built, and I heartily agree that the crew should have this closely supervised. But in practical terms, there’s only one way this kind of thing happens: a responsible individual didn’t clear the weapon, load the required blank cartridge for the shoot, and then tag it as ready to go and provide it only when called for.
Well said
I don’t see recoil being easy to simulate without the weapon going through the process of a controlled explosion in the chamber, which I’d think is actually the safest through blank bullets.
Hexum’s death was the first thing I thought of when hearing the story.
You can be killed by a blank cartridge, they’re not perfectly safe.
Where do you get the idea that’s what happened at all? Shut the fuck up.
At least Local 44 covered their own ass…
What came to my mind was, “How did the IATSE local know if they weren’t there?” Because didn’t IATSE walk out due to how recklessly fast they felt the production was working at, and because they were put up in a hotel an hour away despite being promised a nearby hotel?
Some scenes require a real gun be fired, but not at someone obviously. Somehow a live round was in the gun. It could have been a mix up? They should better test guns before an actor handles them on set.
So fire a real gun with a blank cartridge (which is probably what he thought he was doing). You don’t need to fire a live round to capture the effect of a gun being fired on film.
It depends on the budget, quality, studio involvement, shot needs and production.Nowadays it is getting rare for real guns to be on set, even for the lowest budget underground productions. The Weapons Master is more often dealing with realistic prop weapons. Prop firearms are easy to come by and fairly inexpensive. They often use “non-guns” which are totally fabricated from scratch as inert and use electronics to simulate firing (necessary for certain risky shots where a blank could still be harmful or with actors who have been naughty and aren’t allowed real firearms.) They use plastic and aluminum background weapons which do not need to stimulate firing. They use realistic Airsoft and toy weapons. And they use real guns modified to shoot blanks only.
I hated that my first thought was someone maybe set it up against Baldwin, not that he could be charged if it was purely an accident, though he may have trouble going back to work and decides to fade in the distance for a time…
No scenes require a live round to be fired. That does not happen. Live rounds haven’t been used in over 50 years. The two exceptions were one scene in that stupid Navy Seal movie and a scene in Face/Off where Woo wanted an extreme slow mo shot of a bullet leaving a barrel. And that was done indoors, with a gun on a test pedestal isolated behind inches acrylic.
All actors should take some sort of firearms competency course, so their can be their own last line of defense against this sort of thing by checking the weapon one last time for themselves before filming begins.
Someone read that Christopher Pike book as a pre-tween and thought they’d try to recreate it on a movie set.
This is literally the plot to a horror novel.
More than likely, the prop master will be the one charged with negligent homicide and sent to jail. Possibly whoever hired him will be punished too, though I doubt for jail time unless the prosecutor is Jack McCoy.
Wouldn’t be too sure the prop master will be charged, will depend on the specific circumstances. Nobody was charged in the Lee death, for example.
I’m reading hints that it’s down to the producers who insisted on rushing and wouldn’t delay production for a safety check even AFTER two other accidental fire incidents. One of the producers is Alec Baldwin.
My close friend is an assistant director. He says all blanks are supposed to be inspected by the assistant director before use. That’s not to say that’s the answer to what happened here, but that’s how it’s supposed to go.
Yes, apparently the assistant director is the one who handed the gun to Baldwin and actually called out “cold gun!” while doing so. There had been multiple complaints about this AD in particular being lax on safety measures across multiple projects
Now that more info is out, they’ve figured out why there was live ammo. Apparently, various crew members took the guns out shooting with live ammunition earlier that morning to pass the time before the scene.
I’m not wishing harm on Baldwin, but I would kill myself if I was in his shoes. I hope he retires from show business. I mean, would NBC still have Trump hosting his show if he accidentally shot a DP and director? Oh wait, yes they would.
I can definitely understand Baldwin feeling a tremendous amount of guilt for this, but the rest of your statement makes no sense to me. Assuming he was using the weapon as intended in the scene, how is this his fault? I can’t imagine it’s standard practice for actors to safety check their props.
It doesn’t have to be his fault to lead to suicide. I think he’s fucked. And a part of me is grinning, because all his life he has been a complete asshole. That round somehow got into that gun and into his hand. That’s the universe working in a super extraordinary way. I’m going to watch Magnolia now.
If any part of you is “grinning,” I think you’re the complete asshole in this situation.
Yes I am. I also listen to Chapo Trap House and wish violent death in ever registered republican. At least I know I’m a terrible person.
Fuck yourself, loser.
If this has you grinning it’s time to reassess your life, let alone your “politics”. You absolute fucking monster.
Oh, look, someone as proud of being a shitbag as any Trumpster would be. What a surprise.
oh you’re so edgy!
No, you really don’t know that you’re a terrible person. I’ve got some bad news for you, son. Those people you loathe? The registered Republicans and other imagined enemies? That’s you. The things you think are most wrong with this world? Also you. You are the thing you hate. Once you understand that, you’ll know that you’re a terrible person.
God, you’re just insufferable.
Dude, check out his post history. Clearly imbalanced.
Yep. Video game sociopath.
Then you should condemn every New Yorker (including me). We only have sympathy for Ms. Hutchins, not Alec. I thought about my comments, and they aren’t really that bad. And now, after a weekend of contemplation, I can rewrite my argument. I will just list my points, because this case is extraordinary in every worst way:
1. Alec Baldwin is New York’s resident asshole celebrity. He’s been an asshole to just about everyone for the last 30 years or so. You and others will cry that this isn’t relevant to the tragedy, but of course it is. This is part of how it is going to be remembered. I was just too soon in saying it. 2. No asshole deserves what has happened to Mr. Baldwin. I wasn’t arguing he deserves it. But what astonished me is the level of horrifying trauma he is presumably going through (unless he is unfazed, in which case, see #1). No one deserves that as punishment for being an chronic asshole. Not even Donald Trump, who must be thrilled that this has happened. Many people have pointed that out, and I don’t see you calling them ghouls or bad people.3. Baldwin is no longer an A-list actor. He’s in the twilight of his career, unable to star in a theatrical release. So he took a role in a Blumhouse production that was marred by a labor dispute and a total breakdown of safety protocols. This led to him becoming a victim of one of the worst cases of negligence in the history of movie production. I was to repeat that. What happened last week was arguably worse than The Twilight Zone movie helicopter crash, or Brandon Lee’s death on the set of the Crow. That’s because the gun used was a revolver. For a rehearsal, it should have been empty of all cartridges. It goes so far beyond ‘inexcusable.’ 4. The inexcusable, violent death of Ms. Hutchins was the fault of many people. Primarily, the liability rests with assistant director Dave Halls. But in order for this to become the horrible manslaughter it was, there had to be a string of consecutive failures, including the final failure from Mr. Baldwin. He violated a critical rule: never point any gun at anyone. It would have been bad enough if a live round was fired during rehearsal, but hit no one. People would still be fired and banned from Hollywood. An investigation would still happen. The unions would send stern reminders to armorers and assistant directors. But this horrific tragedy is one in which a series of terrible things happened, including Baldwin pointing the gun at people.
I think all of this is obvious. But I’m a ‘ghoul’ for pointing it out. Because I said something bad about the star of 30 Rock and the host of the new Match Game.
What the fuck? What a horrible comment.
And that’s why you’re an asshole that nobody likes.
It doesn’t have to be his fault to lead to suicide. I think he’s fucked. And a part of me is grinning, because all his life he has been a complete asshole.What the fuck is wrong with you?
I’m guessing he’s like fifteen. So tons.
You are hoping that Alec Baldwin commits suicide over something that wasn’t his fault? If the universe does work in extraordinary ways, I’m hoping that wish comes back on you.
I really regret replying to you. If you really find this amusing, you should seek help, and I mean that. If you are just shit posting, you need to grow up.
“And a part of me is grinning, because all his life he has been a complete asshole.”
Well, hopefully Alec rapes you with the offending prop gun, then skullfucks you before he kills himself.
Die, you fucking scum. Die horribly and painfully.
How long have you been a complete asshole?
I’m sure it will be tremendous source of comfort to the family of Halyna Hutchins to know that she was privileged to be the Universe’s instrument of vengeance against Alex Baldwin.I co-sign what Anthony Pirtle said.
That’s an incredibly misanthropic and unempathetic response.
Wow, what a complete, utter freakin’ asshole you are.
And Halyna Hutchins was just collateral damage? Her death was worth it to you, just so a guy you don’t like will go through the trauma of accidentally killing someone? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
Clearly someone had to die so the shitlib could learn his lesson. The overt mention of Chapo makes me think this could be some sort of attempt at parody or trolling, but yeah, fucked up.
“learn his lesson”?Did you not look at the screen when you typed that?
“And a part of me is grinning…”Christ, dude.
Dude, the minute you mentioned Trump, it became obvious this was a situation of “Baldwin has different political beliefs than me and I’m taking joy in the fact he was involved in a freak accident where someone lost their life.” The fact you mention “grinning” just solidifies the fucked up fact that you’re taking glee in this tragedy.
Perhaps you can spend some quality time with the deceased woman’s family. Children love grinning.
a part of me is grinning
The part of you that is grinning IS the part of you that is in fact a complete asshole
You, uh, have some issues, to say the least. Either that or this is a really poorly done troll job.
Thanks for letting everyone know what a thoroughly pathetic and reprehensible piece of shit you are. Go fuck yourself, please.
A woman died, you fucking monster.
Wow, you’re a horrible person!
So, the universe worked to help a guy you don’t like accidentally kill a person you don’t know and you’re grinning?Maybe the universe is, instead, working to give you this opportunity to critically examine yourself?
That part of you that’s grinning makes all of you an asshole.
A woman’s dead, you fucking sociopath.
What the fuck is wrong with you fucking sociopath?
You should delete this and fuck off.
Agreed. Disgusting things to say. No empathy at all.Edit: It’s not even like I’m a fan of Baldwin, but it’s brutal that people feel they are somehow justified in writing something so horrible. So many lack basic human compassion.
I wish there were more flag categories to get these stains posing as comments out of here.
seek therapy
You seem nice
A part of you is grinning because an accident happened to an actor that you don’t like that killed one person and injured another? And HE’S the asshole???
Die in a fire you fucking ghoul.
well somebody died, but at least an actor you don’t like pulled the trigger
Uh, you’re “grinning” for him to commit suicide from undeserved but understandable guilt? Go away.
In case any New Mexico cops are here, we have a suspect for the cowardly dipshit who loaded a live round into a prop gun…
Wow, what the hell. Are you also grinning about Halyna’s death or the other injuries on set. Or the emotional trauma of the people on the set or the friends of Halyna. What an absolute ass. You need help.
If you are “grinning” at this situation, then you are an Olympic caliber Fox News prime time host asshole. There is NOTHING in this situation to be grinning about in any way, shape, or form. Mr Baldwin’s personality over the years has nothing to do with this—and if you think it does, you might want to engage in some self-reflection. People who do the Schadenfreude Waltz frequently wind up with Ms Karma knocking on *their* door at some point. Celebrating the misery of others is a terribly unsexy look.On a side note, are you a sociopath? I ask that as a legitimate question.
Donald you really need to get over his SNL impression of you…
Complete asshole you say? This is shaping up into a takes one to know one situation.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Regardless of whether or not you think he’s an asshole, that’s your opinion and that has no bearing on this situation. Go fuck yourself.
Michael Massee was not, by any account, an asshole. When he died of stomach cancer a few years back, every obituary mentioned that he was the one who fired the mishandled prop gun that killed Brandon Lee. I remember being horrified that the man’s legacy was intertwined with someone else’s deadly fuck-up. In a 2005 interview he said he still had nightmares about the incident.It’s not karma for anyone to be victimized in this way, whether we’re talking about Baldwin or Hutchins.
Wh…what?
Congratulations on the worst comment of the day, asshole.
Agreed. Michael Massee, who shot Brandon Lee, took a year off from acting, but did return to the job – he may have been the immediate cause of Lee’s death, but it certainly wasn’t his fault (an improperly-made dummy bullet had been left jammed in the barrel, and came shooting out when the gun was loaded with a blank and then fired).
Poor Michael. 12 years after the accident, someone asked him about it and he admitted he still had nightmares about it and had all the symptoms of a long term PTSD sufferer. It really messed him up bad for the rest of his life.
Yeah, this isn’t a Twilight Zone situation in which jail time should have been a fucking factor for multiple obvious reasons. Someone should habe checked for safety, but accidents DO happen, and not just in the entertainment industry. I wouldn’t put this all on Baldwin.
I would guess most actors—with maybe the exceptions of Tom Selleck and the late Charlton Heston—know enough about firearms to be trusted to check out their own weapons on a movie set. And the ones who do know what they’re doing are always going to defer to the experts, because that’s what professionals do when they’re handling firearms.There are supposed to be professional weapons handlers in charge of doing it on movie sets. In addition to the very, very important safety considerations, there are also the associated insurance risks. While this incident is obviously a human tragedy, it’s also going to have severe business repercussions. I don’t see the movie ever being finished. I also see numerous lawsuits in all directions.
It’s not. That’s why movie sets have prop masters for.
Alec Baldwin was not responsible for loading the gun. While I’m sure he has a tremendous amount of guilt. He was an actor handed a gun by a prop master and told it was safe.
And, if Baldwin had tried to check the round in the gun himself, he would actually be violating every safety protocol.
Fault one: Telling someone a gun is ‘safe’Fault two: Accepting the statement as true without checking for yourself.A gun is always loaded unless you’re literally looking into an empty chamber.
The gun wasn’t supposed to be real given it’s a movie. It is also against the rules for an actor to “check” the gun.
“But I would kill myself if I was in his shoes.”
Don’t let anyone here stop you
I dislike Alec Baldwin a great deal, but I don’t think he has any reason to feel guilty. Of course he obviously does probably feel enormous guilt and sadness nonetheless, as would I, but I wouldn’t kill myself or end my career over an accident that was nowhere near my fault.
You are a sick person.
How is this remotely Baldwin’s fault and why should he retire?
I’m pretty sure many other actors, sports stars, musicians and politicians committed much more negligent homicides or even possible murders. Numerous people driving while drunk, first ladies missing stop signs when teenagers, Ray Lewis, Robert Wagner, etc.
You’d kill yourself for causing someone’s death that wasn’t your fault? You seem like a stand up guy that would leave behind several children all because of an accident. Way to incorporate pointless politics into this too.
everyone really one-upping another with the worst possible takes on this news
Your comment is deeply confusing for adding Trump for no reason.
you know why he added it. he voted for him.
From what I remember, the guy who shot Brandon Lee on The Crow set (might have been the actor who played Funboy?) took a year off from acting and never saw the finished film from the guilt, 12 years later said he was still having nightmares about it.
trump lost you small dick fuck.
It makes me wonder if firearms get “borrowed,” used at a local firing range (or somewhere) for kicks, and then returned to set. I can’t see how else a live round would get in there.
Or vice versa….they needed a particular gun for a particular movie or scene, and rented it from a local gun range for the duration
It’s probably more likely that live rounds were supposed to be used for some wide shots or second unit stuff because this was a low-budget (likely straight to Redbox) film, and it would probably be cheaper to use blanks or lightly loaded rounds than hire a CGI crew to do it in post-production. That or the director wanted it to feel more ‘real’.It sounds like the director wanted to save some money by hiring non-union, possibly someone who doesn’t even have experience with guns, and now someone is dead because of it, not to mention the trauma to the other crew members, actors, and especially Baldwin, who has probably done a hundred of the same kind of shots where things were safe, and now an irresponsible crew member handed him a gun that ended up in him shooting someone fatally.
The producers do the hiring, not the director, this is an important distinction.
the producers in this case included one alec baldwin and also the director of the movie, small budget deal and so i imagine they both had quite a bit of say on set.
You are correct but not every producer is in charge of hiring all the people, or at all. Bigger films generally have more producers and a hierarchy, and different jobs will be given to different producers. Then there are the people who get a producer credit and don’t do anything. Someone should have taken more care in the hiring, and that someone is probably a producer but that’s all.
More likely they got some tax breaks or other discounts on their film permit by hiring as many local people as possible and the New Mexico film industry isn’t heavily unionized.
I live in NM, and have been on film crews here. The NM film industry is far larger than you imagine, and has a long history. There are a lot (A LOT) of IATSE union members here, and tax breaks are given if you have above a certain percentage (I think it was 75% 10 years ago) of NM Union on the film. So, you are partially correct. I don’t think most people realize that New Mexico hosts a huge number of productions (I think they were 3rd state-wise a few years back, behind California and New York)
Live rounds are not used on wide shots or any shots for that matter. I’m assuming it was a revolver and they usually have dummy rounds in them. The armorer often makes the dummy rounds themselves by removing the powder from real ammo. It’s possible that somehow the live rounds and dummy rounds got confused. Another possibility is that the gun was sourced locally and the armorer was going to test it with live ammo to ensure it could handle blanks and somehow it made its way onto the set loaded and it was assumed they were dummy rounds. However it happened, it’s a monumental fuck up.
It literally takes a few minutes to add a muzzle flash in post. Any idiot with consumer editing software can do it. Add a couple extra minutes and you can add a shell ejecting. There is NO reason to use blanks anymore. Often times, the blank gun muzzle flash doesn’t even show up on camera as it doesn’t sync with the camera shutter.
I think blanks are preferred because the recoil is something that makes gun use look real. It gets really noticeable in films with a lot of gunplay (like Westerns) when the actors are faking it or when it is missing entirely.
That said, I still believe ‘light guns’ like the Time Crisis arcade machines have, would work. They weren’t revolvers but they simulated recoil by having a weighted slide that actually moved with each trigger pull.
It’s probably more likely that live rounds were supposed to be used for some wide shots…I sincerely doubt it. There’s absolutely NOTHING they could accomplish with a live round that they couldn’t with a blank. Typically the “live rounds” you see with a bullet inside of the shell, have no powder in the shell, or primer.
There is ZERO reason to ever have live ammo on set.
There actually is no real evidence that they were using a non-union gun handler. What that really might translate to is having a local collector or antiquities guy bring over some guns and not having ANY proper “gun-handler” go over them.
No. I doubt it was the director. Prodcuers, yes. OF which Alec is one.
I wondered the same. Or are they sometimes purchased? Being a western, I’d imagine it’s possible they purchased period correct weapons that could somehow still have live rounds in them.
Particularly if they’re antique guns or quality replicas, I can see where people might want to do some shooting when the guns aren’t in use, particularly if they’re filming in a remote area where it’s as simple as setting up a target and firing, rather than having to take the guns off-location to a gun range.
I thought this sounded like a good guess when I read it, and from what TMZ is reporting, you were exactly right.
Yeah, with the caveat that they claim that once in a while they need to shoot live rounds to “knock the kinks out of it.” Which, idk, sounds kinda like taking your car out on the interstate to drive-really-fast in order to burn the junk out of your carburetor. It makes sense in a total self serving win-win type of base logic. “I need to fix my chainsaw by cutting down a shit-ton of trees.” Or more to the point: “I need to clean out my flame thrower by flame throwing a whole bunch extra today.” … I mean, MAYBE … snark aside, they’ll have to argue in court that coupled with a cleaning process, a PROP gun needs to fire some real rounds so that a blank round later-on fires more efficiently. Even so … still negligent manslaughter.
An internal email from a union whose workers weren’t involved… doesn’t seem like much of a source.
I would definitely take it with several grains of salt, but I’m sure they have a ton of contacts on the set regardless. The cinematographers’ guild were the ones who released Halyna Hutchins’ name to the media, so they obviously knew about it before it was public. It wouldn’t be that weird if IATSE was getting plenty of behind-the-scenes updates too.
IATSE is a large union encompassing many different jobs. There were likely IATSE members on set, from a different local.
Nobody has said that the prop-master involved was not a member of IATSE. This was just an email from Local 44, which covers the LA area, saying it wasn’t one of theirs.The New Mexico local hasn’t issued a statement yet on whether the person was in their branch.
Didnt we learn from the Crow?
My reading of this is that IATSE 44 covers prop makers/masters in the LA area. Are there similar unions for staffers outside of the LA area?
One thing that should be understood here is that a “blank” round isn’t automatically harmless. It takes a bit of distance before they’ll stop doing just as much damage as a regular bullet, and there’s still the possibility of something left in the barrel that could be fatally propelled out, which is what happened to Brandon Lee.
Based on this info it wasn’t even a blank round in a prop gun, it was a real gun that was loaded. Like… Jesus Christ.
Yes, just like Jesus Christ.
He was just trying to put on a play for Passover, but then somebody replaced the fake cross with a real one!
Too soon
“I was trying to take the nail OUT! I was trying to help The Man!”
Wait, Jesus was a vampire?
I always ask my niece and nephew around Easter “If Jesus rose from the dead, does that make him a zombie?”
Don’t be ridiculous.He was a zombie.
No, he was shot with a nail gun.Dammit, get me outta the greys, Ed.
as others have said, a prop gun doesn’t mean it’s a fake gun necessarily, just that it is a gun that is being used as a prop.
Prop guns don’t fire anything.If it can fire a blank, it is a real gun.
It was a blank round at point blank range that killed Jon-Erik Hexum. Didn’t penetrate, but the combined force of the wadding and the gases released by the explosion were enough to crack his skull.
What happened to his “beard”?
Are you asking about the photo at the top of this article? It’s a stock photo. It was taken some time in the past.
She got caught pretending to be Spanish.
“How you say ‘COO-CUM-BUR?’”
I say this to myself at least once a day.
BIG same
you lost you fuck
This is beginning to sound a little fishy… If this were some kind of generic detective procedural, there would be some disgruntled cast/crew member with a motive who snuck a bullet in there with heinous intent.
Or a certain former president who wanted to get his revenge on baldwin
Has that been on TV yet? If not, I’m surprised.
Nah, if that had been the case, it would never have been this successful. The headlines would be “both Trump sons shot in foot trying to load firearm.”
Oh god, that’s just the detour American politics needs right now…
Trump’s comments about shooting someone in public and getting away with it are pretty uncomfortably eerie right now.
If the IATSE didn’t have a member of their union on the set, how do they know more about what happened than anyone else?
I would assume they got the information from one of the dozens of other people on set at the time (and quickly because they would have to do damage control if their members had been present).
Alot of the people were still members of the greater union, not the local so they probably would still talk anyways.
I suppose that makes sense, I don’t really understand how these unions are structured. I looked up the local 44 and it was very specifically a prop worker union, but I see now that “IATSE” is much more expansive in scope.I’m still not sure it’s responsible for them to be contradicting what the production has announced. It’s hard to imagine that anyone on set knows it was a live bullet, the only way to verify that is an examination of the wound, and the police have said they’re still investigating. You might have an actor on set who thinks it was a live bullet because of how it flew out of the gun and hit someone, but that can happen even for blanks, they have a little cap on them to pressurize the explosion of the gunpowder.
It was a single shot, both the police and union agree. For a single shot to pass through one person and strike another it’s hard to imagine any other scenario than it being an actual live round.
Yeah, the part where one person is killed and another seriously injured from one shot makes it hard to believe it was just a pure blank that was fired too close. God it’s just so horrible.
Odds are people working on Rust know plenty of people in other unions and their off-project friends asked them about the incident. Considering how labor relations are reported to be on set, I expect that some people are more than willing to talk.
Why the fuck would live ammo be anywhere near a film set using prop weaponsFor that matter its 2021, we have been making movies for over a hundred years. Why haven’t we moved to an industry that makes prop weapons that can’t possible ever be loaded with live rounds. This shit should not be happening. Its devastating for the victims family and its devastating for Alec Baldwin. I don’t know how you live a normal life after accidentally killing someone. This so fucked up.
It’s not exactly a prop gun if live ammunition makes it a non-prop gun right?
Doesn’t matter. The term “prop gun” means a gun that’s being used as a prop. The term doesn’t indicate anything about what exactly that gun is (toy, replica, actual gun) or what if anything it’s loaded with.
Yes it does. Prop guns are specifically modified so they aren’t usable as a real gun. They are still dangerous in certain circumstances. The term doesn’t indicate anything about what exactly that gun is (toy, replica, actual gun) or what if anything it’s loaded with.
There we go, came to say this. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what constitutes a prop gun.
Thank you, gotta love playing semantics over someone’s life.
This ^Literally anything can be used as a prop.
Yeah that is why I am confused a lot by the wording. When they say “prop gun” do they mean its a prop gun or a real gun being used as a prop?
Prop guns are guns modified to be prop guns.
Most prop guns are the latter, though gas actuated actions are often adjusted so they can cycle with blanks. This isn’t a concern for revolvers, which I’m assuming is the gun in question seeing as it’s a western. Because it’s a revolver I suspect this is some kind of dummy round mishap. It’s not unusual for the armorer to make their own dummy rounds from live rounds. Once loaded they look identical. It’s conceivable someone loaded live rounds thinking they were the dummy rounds. It’s an inexcusable failing of safety protocol but conceivable.
“It’s not unusual for the armorer to make their own dummy rounds from live rounds. Once loaded they look identical.”
Yep – that’s a recipe for fucking tragedy right there.
Seems like it would be safer to buy reloading supplies, and make dummy rounds out of parts that were never live.
I need to dig out my late mate’s reloading stuff and see if it can be made to look legit on camera – but I’d think it could be.
It would look legit. It’s the same process as removing removing the powder yourself and re-crimping a new bullet in. Ammo companies actually sell dummy ammo but it’s generally always color coded and wouldn’t pass for an actual cartridge. I’ve heard, the on set gun safety rules were updated after Brandon Lee’s death but I can’t find what was specifically changed. I would expect part of it would be that a dummy round with a primer is not a dummy round. I’m also just assuming some kind of dummy round mistake here because I find it nearly impossible to believe that nobody noticed a revolver had cartridges loaded in the cylinder.
And I should clarify, I’m talking about prop guns that are meant to fire. In scenes where the gun isn’t going to fire the guns can be anything from deactivated real guns for close-ups to hard rubber replicas for wide shots.
They mean the latter.
You would be mortified by the levels of firearms licensed prop masters can legally purchase.
Prop describes the use, not the gun itself. A prop chair is still a chair, a prop hairbrush is still a hairbrush.
IIRC there are prop guns designed to mimic real life guns but chambered specifically for blanks, so you literally can’t load them with live ammo. That’s probably only practical to do with common gun models though. Westerns aren’t that common these days so my guess would be that there aren’t prop guns available for those old weapons, so they have to use real guns and load them with blanks.
I think they also want authentic weapons of the time and to say they used real western guns
If proper protocol is maintained, “authentic” guns are still modified to be prop guns.
“Westerns aren’t that common these days so my guess would be that there
aren’t prop guns available for those old weapons, so they have to use
real guns and load them with blanks.” They didn’t have to use real guns. They build entire sets for Westerns and go through incredible amounts of technical configurations to accommodate the cameras, lighting and sound equipment. It’s not any more difficult to make non lethal props.It’s not like movie gun fights are remotely realistic anyway, any more than movie boxing looks like the real thing. Getting hung up on the look of a revolver is like worrying about the gloves in a Rocky movie. You could go 100% authentic (maybe Stallone did with his gloves, who knows) and it’s still never going to be close.
I don’t know, it seems like it would be fairly difficult to modify an existing gun to only fire blanks. Blanks aren’t inherently safe either, so any modifications would need to be carefully designed and tested. what happens if someone gets injured using a modified gun because the modifications weren’t done correctly? Then you’re in MORE trouble for using a non-standard gun. And blanks used in a real gun should be plenty safe, assuming of course that all the proper safety protocols are met, which I think is probably the bigger issue here.
There are definitely safe fake guns available for movies, and it’s up to directors and producers to figure out how to deal with any limitations. Movie making involves these choices every day.The director wants a mountain lion to take an actor in his mouth and shake him around? It’s up to the animal trainer to explain why that’s a terrible idea and they’d better go talk to a puppet or SFX guy. The director wants an authentic Colorado landscape shot? The location scout has to explain how there’s now a shopping mall there and 20 acres of parking lots and he has to try Wyoming instead.That scene with a shooting may need to be redone with an inauthentic gun, or changed to an offscreen shooting, or done in silhouette only, or as a long shot where you can’t see the gun. There just is no requirement to use risky props, but it may take extra work and thinking to do it well.
When a blank is fired, material is ejected out the front of the barrel of the gun.It’s not in the same league as an actual bullet, but it can hurt or even kill a person. Just ask John Eric Hexum.
Blanks can also kill you. There was some action show back in the 1980s in which the lead actor was goofing around, fired a blank too near his head, and died. Here it is: https://www.newsweek.com/jon-erik-hexum-prop-gun-shooting-alec-baldwin-rust-1641547
Yea, but those old timey guns can be modified pretty easily to be cap guns, which would give the same effect.
Westerns aren’t that common these days so my guess would be that there
aren’t prop guns available for those old weapons, so they have to use
real guns and load them with blanks. With the 3-D printers, CNC machines that are available today, how hard is it to make a replica? How hard is it to have the actor hold a plastic model and use CGI to put in the image or a period-correct gun?
Problem In westerns is that if you film a revolver from the front you will see the blanks in the open chambers. Apparently they use more real looking blancs in revolvers.
As I understand things, modern semi-auto pistols can be converted as you describe. 19th century revolvers cannot be modified like this.
It would be massively easy to make a gun barrel that is incapable of ejecting a bullet if a live round was installed. They could do something tricky, like making the gun barrel just a bit too small for a bullet, so that if a bullet exited the chamber, it would jam in the barrel and not cause an explosion of the gun. The gun would still look real, but could not eject a bullet under any circumstance.
These weapons aren’t old. They make new prop guns all the time. The issue is semi-auto handguns need to be modified to fire blanks because no bullet means not enough pressure to rack the slide. Revolvers don’t have to be modified to fire blanks. However, it’s no big deal to modify it so it only fires blanks. Dummy rounds are used for close up shots where you have to see the round in the cylinder, but those guns can have the firing pin removed or safety transfer bar installed. There’s no excuse for real ammo being on set, unless I’m unaware of some authenticity shit for film.
i’m also wondering if super-realistic violence is necessary anyways. do we really need a real-life gun and authentic discharge in movies?i’m asking honestly. i avoid movies and shows with any kind of excessive violence in them, so super-realistic kabooms are totally superfluous to me.
I don’t know if it’s for the effect, like the rebound or recoil or whatever, otherwise they look like kids playing with toy guns. But you’d think they’d invent something by now!
I never questioned the historical accuracy of the recoil of the Star Wars blasters… I feel like we can get over prop guns not making a real “pew pew” sound and muzzle flash.
This comment is… wow. Just to be clear, youre implying that maybe we should censor any and all somewhat realistic violence from movies, if not art in general? Unreal. Who advocates for that degree of censorship and sterility in art? This wasnt caused because movies depict violence. It happened because someome was groasly negligent.I bet you would have been burning records right alongside Tipper in the 80’s.
Really living up to that dingleberry title you gave yourself
Depends on how high your suspension of disbelief is. You can’t knowingly recreate the recoil of a fired gun using a non-firing model. Sci-Fi movies can get away with it because they all fire lasers, but the difference in someone reacting to an actual gun firing in their hands and acting like the gun is recoiling is night and day. Like how you can tell when a stunt is performed live on set and when it’s entirely CG.
This seems to be the right answer to dingleberry.If you are watching a film with firearms and you have any experience with firearms it’s really obvious. Maybe on rich productions they can afford the animators who can fake a recoil going through the body of an actor but on productions where you don’t have the money to pay for that and/or pay for a non-functional firearm you might see it more.I’ve only been on sets with non-functional but realistic looking firearms because, thankfully, most people realize how dangerous it can be without proper training and supervision. But they have to use editing tricks to hide the lack of recoil (or they don’t hide it and it looks real fakey).
i mean, i get it, kinda? i play musical instruments and it used to bug me when actors couldn’t be bothered to ‘get it right’ in movies. i don’t really care anymore because i know it’s make-believe and they’re lip-synching, etc.. if i wanted authenticity, i’d watch a documentary.but i know violence is a whole other bag of chips, and i don’t deal with it, so i was curious.
thanks for answering sincerely; there are some folks in the greys who are really running off the rails.
you’ve named yourself appropriately, dingleberry.
Most action movies these days use rubber guns with flash and blood added in post with CGI and it sucks.
The argument for live-fire prop guns is that recoil physics, and actor reactions are much more realistic than CGI’ing everything.Not so important in large scale battle scenes, or super fake gun fights, e.g., 100lb actor firing 357s akimbo, or anyone using sci-fi laser weapons.But in a close up shot meant to have a big impact, it makes a difference to see the “real thing.”Not defending its necessity, but that’s the thinking.
It’s ok to feel squeamish around guns in movies, if that’s how you feel. Seems bizarre to project that onto the entire field of cinema. The solution to this tragic breach of safety is not to just… make movies without guns in them.
Men are violent, so – yeah, they would say it’s necessary.I have no use for it either.
CA has significantly stricter laws than NM in terms of guns on set.I’d like to think that this wouldn’t happen in 2021 on a set in CA where a fire marshal and someone with a class iii license would have added an additional level of safety.
I suspect the reason this movie was not filmed in CA may be to get around such things. Because all those extra people on set cost moneyIn the end, I suspect this all comes down to someone trying to save a few dollars somewhere cutting enough corners to end up getting someone killed
Yeah I know, but check this out. Here’s why
There are very rare situations where a blank-firing gun is even needed on set anymore.95% of the gunfire in “John Wick” was added in post-production. VFX muzzle-flash is cheap, easy, and effective.
It’s very, very far from cheap. Not to make it look good. Blank firing is orders of magnitudes cheaper and easier. It’s also perfectly safe if you have a competent crew.
We don’t know the details yet, but the whole union/non-union angle is superfluous here. Humbolt above probably has this right. It is a small production, they needed some extra props and likely contacted someone in the area who had some others to use. He was likely not a “non-union prop master”, just a provider of some guns to use as props. At that point no-one, including the guy who supplied it, double checked to see that it did not have ammo in it. THAT part is horrible. That is sort of like having a knife for a stabbing scene and no one making sure it is not a real knife.To be fair, having a non-fake prop weapon on the set should not even be legal at all.
I think the Union thing is coming up because of the obvious tension going on right now and because apparently the crew on this movie had already walked out over extreme work conditions. Turns out working people 18 hours a day leads to mistakes that can be fatal.
Here’s the thing though, if they are talking about, say, a close-up shot, it would be easier to use an authentic gun, loaned from a collector, than to try to reconstruct and weather a replica
By easier, what you mean is cheaper. I watch enough professional and amateur prop makers on YouTube to know that these guys can make realistic screen ready “hero” guns out of PVC and foam core given time and budget.
But you aren’t going to get a PVC or foam core revolver to ever look like it fires. Hell, you probably won’t get the cylinder to rotate with a trigger or hammer pull
I was being a bit sarcastic there. Honest to goodness prop makers can work with steel and other tools and can make functions props with moving parts.
Not trying to stir shit, just being honest, this is such a fucking weird fluke it makes me paranoid it was intentional. I know it’s not.
Seriously.
IF the weapon was supplied by a local small arms dealer on a rental basis AND that particular dealer also has a gun range attached to their retail outlet, this may have been the result of force of habit – most shops with a range will rent out guns in inventory for use on the range. And such ranges usually include a ‘complimentary’ magazine or two loaded with ammunition for use on the range. If the local dealer was unfamiliar with renting to a movie production, the ‘usual practice’ may have been followed, resulting in unauthorized and potentially unknown live ammunition on set.
I’ve went shooting at a lot of ranges and rented guns at them. Never have they ever also gave complimentary ammo. Also they never gave me a loaded gun and had very strict rules that guns are to only be loaded when on the range.
According to a friend of mine, fake guns that look and feel real that are completely safe exist, but they aren’t loud and they don’t have a muzzle flash which has to be added in post. Directors like the loud bang because actors wince and thus isn’t more realistic. It’s all BS according to my friend because the CGIing of muzzle flash is cheaper than all the safety measures required to use actual guns. As for the noise, actors can act and you can make loud bangs that aren’t deadly if need be. Apparently a lot of productions already use the fake guns.
Elsewhere, I saw an explanation that when “live round” is used in a movie prop context, a blank is meant and not an actual bullet.
The more I read about this the more I realize that the industry terms for things don’t always match up to what I layman would expect. Makes it all even more confusing on what happened
Blanks are still widely used and blanks = live rounds
It was an antique gun. Max six bullets? And one was a live round in a working environment that doesn’t allow or need live ammo? On an antique revolver needing specialized rounds? This is a major fuckup.
I had just read the same elsewhere. That would explain how the projectile passed through one person and hit another. Unreal if the gun had live ammo in it. I guess conceivably, being this was likely a period replica, the armorer may have tested the weapons with live rounds and somehow the weapon got on set without being cleared? Or there was somehow an assumption that they were dummy rounds as are usually used in revolvers? Usually the armorer makes the dummy rounds themselves from live rounds. I guess somehow a live round could’ve got confused or mixed in with the dummy rounds? Whatever the explanation, this is fucking awful.
I lived in New Mexico long enough to believe that a non-union New Mexico film crew would supply whatever gun was available with whatever ammo was available. I don’t understand why you would hire a union crew but then pay a second non-union crew for a particularly dangerous activity.
Holy shit, dang.
That makes it criminal not an accident .He better get himself his own Lawyer ,because he is in trouble.
Really puts the meaning to a Western film shoot.
…What in the everliving fuck was going on? Why would there possibly be a live round in that gun?
My guess is that Baldwin was feeling cheeky and decided to attempt a prank. Why else would anyone other than an actor have a prop gun pointed at them? It would also explain why the gun contained real ammunition (if indeed that’s the case). Since it was not yet time to film the scene, the prop master hadn’t yet gotten around to loading it with blanks/dummies, and whoever provided it (probably an antiquities dealer) hadn’t bothered to make sure it was empty.
Others have speculated it was a shot towards the camera.
Yes, and the director and DP are usually the closest crew members to the camera lens, other than the operator who would be on the other side.
I saw a union guy on tiktok say that there was a fiberglass shield between Alec and the two people who were shot to shield them from the smoke and chemicals from the blank but it just shattered, so because of that he would have been shooting twards them.
No matter what happened there never should have been an actual bullet on set. This whole thing reads like a bad lifetime movie or murder mystery (I actually read the Christopher Pike book as a tween, the wrong bullet put in the gun was a big plot point)
I’m worried that will be the case and more people will start blaming Baldwin, even though it will obviously still not be his fault that a prop gun was fucking loaded.
I’d like to think any prank wouldn’t involve live ammo. The punchline being him killing someone wouldn’t make sense.
The punchline would be him firing what he assumes to be harmless blanks at his co-workers.
Blanks are far from harmless at short range.
Why would a cinematographer and director have the gun pointed at them? Is this a serious question? Did you not bother to think literally at all before posting this? Have you not seen a million shots in movies where a gun is shot towards the camera?
What? I mean seriously… what?
Who the fuck would EVER “play a prank” with live ammo?
She had a pop gun pointed at her because she’s a fucking cinematographer, and was most likely capturing a shot of him shooting something. Have you ever seen ANY movie with a gun in it? There’s usually a shot of them aiming at the camera…
My guess is no one not there knows wtf happened and the internet sewing circle should shut the fuck up about it with their theories until we know more.
I just re-read my first post and realized it was poorly worded and conveys a meaning different from what I intended. I want to clarify: the reason why I think the prank scenario would explain the gun’s being loaded with live ammo is not because someone would desire to deliberately play a prank with live ammo. As I said, if he did decide to play around with a prop gun he assumed was safe, it would be during down time, before it was time to film the scene and the gun was lying out somewhere but, unbeknownst to the actor, had yet to be prepared with blanks/dummy bullets. That would be a stupid thing to do, but that’s not a reason to think no one would ever do it. Evidently someone did something stupid, and it might as well have been Alec Baldwin.And yes, there are lots of scenes with an actor firing a gun toward/slightly away from the camera. But I think people instinctively avoid standing directly opposite the barrel of a firearm about to blast gunpowder unless they’re getting paid to look like they’re getting shot at.
You are uh….not good at guessing are you?!
Why is everyone assuming this sort of thing? Why is anyone assuming anything at all? It may have been a prank gone wrong, but I seriously doubt it. Baldwin has acted with prop firearms before, presumably under competent supervision, and it seems unlikely that he doesn’t know how dangerous they can potentially be. He was already well-established in Hollywood at the time of Brandon Lee’s death, and he’s old enough to remember what happened to Jon-Erik Hexum, so it seems unlikely to me that he’d decide it’s a good idea to fuck around with a prop gun (although yes, it is a possibility). Why are so many people assuming he did? How badly do you need this to have a clear bad guy, and why is it so important that the bad guy be the person you’ve already heard of?
I’m not assuming anything. I’m making a tentative guess. And I have no personal need for anyone to be a “bad guy.” (This wouldn’t make him bad anyway, just foolish.)
I guess I should have been clear that I didn’t mean just you or primarily you. But I would say that many people (yourself included) seem to think that Baldwin joking around with the gun is the most likely possibility, and honestly, there’s so little information available right now that I don’t see how anyone can draw that conclusion.
Why would anyone hand an actor a loaded weapon?
This would still fall down to the prop master, as if they hadn’t cleared it for use it should not have ended up in an actor’s hand. Finding a round in it would have been part of their job.
fuck you trump.
But why speculate to anything like that? It’s a professional situation that they were involved in and I doubt you were or have ever been involved in film production. The wonderfully talented and tragically deceased Halyna Hutchins, the cinematographer more than likely was filming a scene to include a view of Baldwin from the angle of trajectory, and from that line of sight with the camera.. of course she would be in the line of fire. Until we know anything different nobody should assume it was anything but a horrible accident that happened on a movie set where everyone is professionally trained regardless of uninvolved speculation.
If the prop master cared about safety, they should’ve kept it secured or checked the gun before handing it off to someone.
My initial theory, when I heard that not one but two people were hit in the incident, was that it was some sort of shrapnel caught in the barrel that hit both victims. I went with the assumption that Baldwin only shot once and was pointing at the camera, hitting two people near it.A live round raises different questions about different people because now we have Baldwin hitting a victim, aim at the other and then shoot again. Was he shooting completely blinded, by the light or by something else?
Maybe he quickly fired multiple times before realizing anything went wrong. Or it could still be shrapnel.
If it was an actual live round, it’s not out of the question that a single live round could have gone through one person and into another. I don’t see that happening with blanks, though. (If the blanks had multiple pieces of shrapnel in them, though, I assume that could have hit two people at once.)It’s also fully possible he just was supposed to fire twice in quick succession, and that didn’t leave any window for reaction time. We really don’t have enough info yet.
I agree about the lack of info; I’m only speculating to help me process this.I guess if they were filming one of those shots where you basically see the action from the POV of the person being shot, Baldwin could have been close enough for the bullet to go through someone and hit the person behind.What a tragic mess.
According to the union it was a single live round. That’s means it passed through one person before striking the other.
Since it was the cinematographer and director hit, the most plausible explanation as I can imagine it, is they’re filming a shot that looks directly down the barrel of the gun. Perhaps the director was directly over the cinematographer’s shoulder. Maybe he wasn’t supposed to actually pull the trigger from that angle, and the reports are he lost the hammer as he cocked it, I dunno. Either way, obviously, a live round that shouldn’t have been in there was.
“Either way, obviously, a live round that shouldn’t have been in there was.”Yup, this is the core issue.
I don’t think they were already shooting the scene being prepped.
I figured it went though one person and into another.
It doesn’t raise those questions, because it was still only one shot that was accidental.
The round hit the director in the shoulder, then proceeded to hit the cinematographer in her chest.
This is why you hire union.——–if you don’t they’ll arrange to have people killed and blame it on you!
Too soon… but also, I hate myself for laughing.
Unfortunately, they hired a non-union fixer to do it!
Oh the irony!
Odie Irony: Non-Union FixerTuesdays on CBS
No one with a brain or a soul believes that Baldwin intended to kill anyone.
But I do have to wonder about the corners that were cut to make this film, in which he is listed as a producer. Using non-union labor? Not using safer, but more expensive options?
Negligence isn’t just about whose finger was on the trigger.
He still violated an important rule: never point any gun at anyone. It would have been bad enough if a live round was fired during rehearsal, but hit no one. People would be fired and banned from Hollywood. An investigation would still happen. The unions would sent stern reminders to armorers and assistant directors. But this tragedy is one in which a series of terrible things happened, including Baldwin pointing the gun at people.
I guess some pranks do have a downside.
Huh. I guess it’s possible that the gun was loaded with a live round for a seperate special effects shot and then either reused or mixed up with the gun that was supposed to be used in the actual shot.
I guess I don’t understand moviemaking with guns, but here’s what I’d expect out of a situation where there would be firearm discharges. I could be wrong, I’m not in the business, and I’m fine with learning I’m wrong, but…Blanks are always used. The only time I’ve heard of live “real” rounds being used was in that Navy SEAL movie Act Of Valor and even that was only for a specific sequence. It was noteworthy because it was so unusual.Bearing in mind that even blanks fire some material (wax/paper plug, gunpowder residue), I would assume that stunt coordinators & prop armorers are setting up the scene with clear “lanes” that the gun barrels will face (no/minimal film crew downrange, and if they’re down there, they’re shielded to some degree) and the action is carefully choreographed and rehearsed to minimize exposure.The actors handle the prop guns as little as possible. The guns are secured by the prop armorer if takes are not being run.Actors have to undergo SOME degree of training/safety briefing. I’ve seen video of Keanu and Cruise and some others going through training. I don’t know what Alec’s done, but surely he’s not coming into this cold.I just keep coming around to the expectation that Baldwin was goofing off not realizing that what had been put in his hand was a functioning gun loaded with anything, and he intentionally aimed at the DP as a joke and pulled the trigger, thinking he’d get a “click” instead of a “bang.” I cannot imagine the shock he’s in.
I more or less agree with you, except that I have to point out that many “blank” cartridges today don’t use a plug of wax or cardboard, but are instead crimped to produce a brass seal. The crimp is simply expanded when fired instead of a proxy projectile being ejected from the barrel. Other examples (such as seen in the picture below in green) have a frangible plastic seal to keep in the powder. The cross splits upon firing, but the seal itself is attached to the case and doesn’t exit the barrel.Old west firearms blanks can be either kind. The short crimped ones in the center top look to me to be .44 or .45 caliber rimmed for Old West revolvers. The ones just to the right of them look like it too. Just longer. Note there are also fully plastic blank ammunition for Old West firearms which work well. They don’t work so well for modern firearms.
When I was a kid (1980s), I had a handful of 5.56mm (fired) blanks picked up from a National Guard demo that were of the crimped type.
The US military still uses them, but I don’t know what the form factor is. I have a few around here somewhere but nothing which shoots them. My Dad bought them for a rifle he didn’t have anymore when he died.
Deadline reports that the gun went off when he tried to cock it. Which is a bit strange and possibly not completely accurate. Assuming it was a period accurate gun, it would have a long, double-action cocking mechanism which can be quite stiff. It’s conceivable his thumb slipped off the hammer before it was locked.
Yeah, I saw that report too, and I agree that it’s strange. There’s definitely going to be some aspect of mishandling here.It’s also thought-provoking that this has happened right after Ruby Rose got the ball rolling on stories about safety shortcuts in the film/TV industry and how people are getting hurt a lot on productions.
And the union almost striking because of safety concerns.
It doesn’t strike me as strange at all, although I would like to know exactly what kind of reproduction he was shooting. (They don’t film with actual antiques since reproductions are readily available and better made with stronger steel.) Cocking some single-actions can be pretty difficult, and old cowboy pistols were not exactly ergonomic. I can certainly see a combination of factors where Alec’s finger was on the trigger while he cocked it and things slipped.But two things don’t make any sense. For one, why was this thing loaded with live ammunition? That’s a HUGE no-no. Second, Alec is fully at fault for pointing that thing at any of the crew. There are circumstances in an action movie where an actor might point a firearm at another actor, but under no circumstances should an actor point even a firearm loaded with blanks at any of the crew.Basic firearms safety applies even on a movie set. Perhaps more so on a movie set. In every case you never point a firearm at something you don’t want or intend to shoot. There almost certainly are multiple people at fault here, but Baldwin is absolutely one of them. His statement so far sounds like it was written by a lawyer. I’m certain he feels terrible about it and I suspect he will (eventually) accept responsibility, but right now I’m not too happy with his reaction to this tragedy. It sounds too much like “thoughts and prayers.”
For certain his publicist & probably the studio are managing communications for him. You’re 100% correct about basic safety & handling (I’m a rangemaster & trainer for youth shooting sports), hence my original post wondering about methods & tasks for filming firearm usage, so I’m still stuck on how the shot actually happened. But that’s for the investigation to determine, and at least there are plenty of cooperative witnesses and possibly video/film coverage.
Ah. I misunderstood then. You would be fully aware of the process.Now me personally I would have checked six ways from Sunday to make sure they were blanks. I’m anal retentive about such things, and I don’t care who the set armorer is; it’s my finger on the trigger.That said, I think it might be a good idea to have some rules requiring all “prop” firearms on set be modified in such a way that they cannot be loaded with live ammunition. But that’s just me. I know there’s a whole industry in modifying semi-auto firearms to function on blanks (most won’t out of the box) and I don’t see how it would be that difficult to modify revolvers to only accept blanks. Then again, you have the problem with having a bunch of actors who may or may not have had any comprehensive firearms safety training. Baldwin has been in a few movies where he had to at least handle firearms so I have to assume he’s at least been introduced to the concept of safety.
The Deadline report’s sources oddly said the it was a result of Baldwin cocking the gun. Those old style, single action revolvers have a long, often pretty stiff, hammer draw. I have to assume Baldwin is smart enough to not point a gun at people. I wonder if he fumbled it while trying to cock it and possibly dropped it. Assuming Souza and Hutchins were both standing in close proximity, one being hit in the shoulder and one in the stomach is a very strange angle. One that suggests the gun could’ve been dropped.
“In every case you never point a firearm at something you don’t want or intend to shoot.”
This – and we here it over and over. I have a 12 gauge slug sized hole in my living room ceiling, from where a shell that got hung up in the magazine tube (there is an known issue with the magazine followers in that particular gun, that my late mate had told me was fixed – and no, he wasn’t between me and the hole…) – I’d checked it several times, nothing visible anywhere – actually pulled the trigger twice previously (it had sat a while, and was a bit “sticky”) – and then – *boom*!
It now has a new – bright orange – magazine follower. And I leave the hole in the ceiling as a reminder of why I don’t have a missing window – or worse…
Fuuuuuck…I bet you shat yourself. I’ve only ever had a ND with a paintball gun and that spooked me plenty.
Thinking more about, there’s a fairly common circumstance where a gun is pointed at crew, and that’s when it’s pointing at the camera. This was during rehearsal which could explain the differing height in Souza and Hutchin’s wounds and one being behind the other. Setting up the shot it wouldn’t be unusual for the director and DP to beside the camera or potential camera position, one behind the other. Souza could’ve been bent over looking into a viewfinder or squatting with a handheld matte trying to determine camera height. Baldwin is supposed to cock the gun in the scene, that goes wrong for a couple different possible reasons, and the hammer strikes the cartridge. The only way that could happen is if the assumption on set was that gun was clear or loaded with dummy rounds. Some period revolvers cylinders are visually blocked from both ends so you might not notice it’s loaded. I have a very, very hard time believing nobody looked at the gun before Baldwin picked it up though. It’s supposed to always be handed to the actor directly by the person responsible for knowing exactly what’s in it. I can’t believe the armorer or prop person wouldn’t see that it was loaded, which leads me back to dummy rounds. The front of the cylinder was exposed and the assumption was, yes, the gun is loaded, but the on set assumption was that it was inert rounds for the sake of the camera. Yet somehow at least one live round made it into the cylinder.
That all sounds extremely likely. How the live round made it into the cylinder is the big question, I think.
Well, now more info is now coming out. The union camera crews walked off about six hours before the accident for a combination of reasons. They were supposed to be housed in Santa Fe but instead got stuck in Albuquerque, a 50 mile commute, and not compensated for it all the extra hours. Paychecks were late. The non-union gun handlers were apparently extremely lax and not following safety protocols. Guns were not being cleared. Baldwins stunt double had two accidental discharges in one day with a gun that was supposed to be cold (meaning nothing in it, not even a blank) and no safety meetings were called or anything. Normally an accidental discharge stops production. The accident apparently happen while rehearsing a scene where Baldwin is in a gunfight and backing out of a doorway and the discharge happened. Presumably Souza and Hutchin’s were working a dolly shot. An anonymous Local 44 sources is saying that “live round” doesn’t necessarily mean a live cartridge, just that a projectile was caused. Which is some bullshit. Live round has a specific meaning. Either way, doesn’t sound like the gun handlers were observing safety protocols.
Yeah- and apparently this director has talked in the past about working with a previous director of photography to improvise scenes with actors. So Baldwin may have been attempting something while they gave feedback and the trigger slipped
And the thing is, there’s no reason to use a live rounds. Dummy rounds are just as easily available. Either buy or make them. I reload and have made many dummy rounds for cycling a new lever action that’s stiff, or just to increase my speed.
The Ruby Rose part isn’t that thought-provoking. Her post was inspired by the public discussion of on-set safety that’s been provoked by IATSE’s contract negotiations (well, that and the fact that WB told her they were making a sequel to The Meg without her). IATSE leadership agreed to a tentative contract about a week ago, but there’s a substantial portion of the membership that want that contract voted down because it doesn’t do enough for workplace safety, which is worse off now than it was when Ruby Rose was on Batwoman. The industry’s been stretched thin by the pandemic and the demand for new production, and a smaller body of workers asked to do a greater volume of work is a recipe for a dangerous workplace.
I can certainly imagine him trying to pull the hammer back, getting it almost cocked, and then slipping or letting go (thinking it was cocked), and the hammer coming forward with enough force to trigger the cartridge.
It was probably a single-action revolver, then. I don’t know how much practical experience Alec has with firearms; he may have had his finger on the trigger while cocking it. If that’s the case, it would have gone off when he let go of the hammer. Sort of like in the old westerns when they “fanned” the hammer.
Yeah, I meant SA but was typing too fast at work and when I noticed the error it was too late to fix it. Accidentally depressing the trigger while trying to cock the hammer with his thumb was what came to mind. Now with more accounts coming out, a large portion of the camera crew walked off set six hours before this happened, it’s becoming clear this set was a mess. There had already been at least two accidental discharges on set and apparently nobody was doing anything about it.
Yeah, I read an hour or so ago about the safety problems on set and the walk-off. It seems there were multiple failures going on here and lots of blame to go around.As you pointed out it was probably a shot with the camera pointed right at Baldwin. Possibly with him kneeling down or on the ground. The two victims were likely right next to the camera; the Director kneeling down to perhaps camera level (depending on the shot) and the other standing directly behind. Thus shot through the shoulder and into be belly of the DOP behind him.Edit: I had that backwards. The latest news is Hutchins was in front and the round went through her chest, then lodged in Souza’s shoulder.
I too only read about more of the info coming out of that set recently. And, well, that is a shit show. Just focusing on the gun safety aspects alone. You have camera crew saying the gun handlers weren’t clearing guns properly. Baldwin’s stuntman apparently had two accidental discharges, in one day, from what was supposed to be completely empty guns. A cold gun having anything in it is a “stop everything until we figure out how that happened.” TWO? In the same day!?! That’s some serious negligence and production wasn’t stopped, no safety meetings called or anything. The accident apparently happened while Baldwin was backing out of a doorway during the rehearsal for a gunfight. Probably a dolly shot. The way the director and DP were positioned would be the same. An anonymous Local 44 source told the LA Times that “live round” doesn’t necessarily mean an actual cartridge, just that a projectile was released. Which is a bit of BS by them. Live round has one meaning regarding guns. On set, a gun loaded with blanks, is usually called hot. In the end it doesn’t matter. Baldwin, Souza and Hutchins were in that situation and proximity because they assumed these gun handlers were doing their jobs. They clearly weren’t.
I’m almost thinking he had the gun laying in his left hand while he was messing with it in his right and it went off. Think of the cop who shot through his hand at the gun store. It’s the same scenario. If you haven’t seen that video, find it. It’s a fail on all sides.
I worked in the movies for many years. Once my hand was even used in a close up when the actor wasn’t around, firing blanks for the camera.Anyway, on all the sets I’ve been on, it’s a fairly big deal when the guns come out. The armorer makes a bit of a show of demonstrating that the gun is safe for use, and the actors don’t get the weapons until it’s time to roll, and nobody fucks around jokingly with them. I can’t imagine Baldwin doing that after all his years of experience on a set, but who knows I suppose.And in the old days they used to have sharpshooters firing live rounds around the actors, like if Jimmy Cagney was at a window shooting out at the police and saying “Come and get me, coppers!” It was Cagney who shut that down, in fact, and demanded not to be shot at any more. Eventually someone came up with the idea for squibs.
As I understand things, all of your bullet points are correct.
Baldwin definitely wasn’t coming in cold. Early in his career he was firing guns in both Hunt for Red October and Miami Blues just after in ‘90.In ‘87 he was in an Alamo movie and it’s highly likely he was firing rounds constantly in that too.
I’ve only fired a gun once on set, but yes, that was my experience. Additionally, the armorer demonstrated the weapon for me and then had me fire it under his supervision so I knew what to expect in terms of noise (loud!), muzzle flash (dangerous!), and recoil. He also worked with the director on blocking the scene to minimize risk while achieving the right effect, and I don’t think there was any doubt that he would take his gun and go him if his “advice” wasn’t followed. Also he loaded the revolver in front of me each time with a single blank cartridge.If reports so far are accurate then whatever else went wrong on the set of Rust, an assistant director showed appalling disregard for safety procedures. I like to think that if I were the actor firing the weapon I would have questioned the A.D., but it’s easy to get lulled into the belief that other people are looking out for you.
I sincerely doubt Baldwin was playing around. Since both the DP and the director were hit, I’m guessing it was during a requested down-the-barrel shot, and Baldwin was literally aiming at the camera and the DP and director were behind the camera. It have a STRONG suspicion that this was entirely on the prop and safety people, and that everyone else was doing their job correctly.
How can I tell? Every other union is simply putting out condolence messages. The PROP local, on the other hand, is making absolutely sure that everyone knows it wasn’t one of theirs and why.
That’s not a realistic expectation. There’s plenty of scenes in films of actors shooting at the camera, so why come around to he was goofing off? The DP and Director would be BEHIND the camera…so…if they were filming like I described they would be in the line of fire, no matter 5 feet away or 200.
I don’t know how much more of Alec Baldwin’s (bearded or beardless) gaze I can bear.
you lost you fuck
I can’t think of any non-malicious reason to bring live ammunition to the set. I don’t think somebody died from an accidental discharge here. Somebody put a life round in that weapon knowing full-well what could happen.
use a non-union person to save some money, what’s the worst that could happen
I wonder if it’s Señor Spielbergo’s production company that was involved
you’re alright, norm
Perhaps someone who campaigns for gun ban politicians shouldn’t make movies where he shoots guns at people.Hypocrite.1st rule of gun safety: Don’t point a gun at anyone!
Why was Baldwin pointing a gun (and pulling the trigger) at the director? And how were two people injured by one bullet? Why were there live rounds anywhere near a movie set?
Listen to James Gunn:
And he’s a guy who has always been very concerned with Gunn safety!
According to my wife, at least with local theater, a prop firearm should be inspected by the prop master, the actor firing the gun, AND anyone they will be firing at before a scene so everyone signs off that its unloaded, or loaded with blanks. Side note, old style blanks can still kill you if you’re close enough, and there are several documented incidents where actors have died from this.
If the account cited in the comments here is accurate, it would seem like about half a dozen elementary common sense rules must have been broken. The idea that there would be loaded guns just lying unlabelled on trays, on set, next to cold ones, to be picked up by random assistant directors who don’t check what they are but tell everyone that they’re cold, is horrific. Surely, whenever a potentially lethal implement is on set, it should be unambiguous what it is, where it is, and who is in charge of it at any given time. It’s easy – and probably accurate – to blame the guy who handed the gun to Baldwin and told him it wasn’t live. But at the same time, the situation where a random guy is able to make that mistake surely should not be able to arise.Some basic principles would seem to me to be:- there ideally shouldn’t be real guns on set
– if there have to be real guns, they shouldn’t be loaded
– if they have to be loaded, it shouldn’t be with real bullets
– if they’re loaded (with anything), it should be for as little time as possible. They should be loaded as immediately prior to use as possible, and unloaded as soon as possible afterward.
– a specific member of the crew, the armourer, should be in charge of all guns, particularly loaded ones
– if at any time the armourer is not in possession of a loaded gun, they should at least have eyes on it
– nobody other than the armourer should ever pick up a gun (unless they just put it down themselves and have had eyes on it in the meantime)
– anytime anyone needs a gun, they should be given it by the armourer, and they shouldn’t accept it from anyone else
– to ensure this, guns should never be left lying around, but should always be securely contained when not in use
– if it’s not viable to visually mark different classes of gun (fake guns, unloaded guns, guns with blanks, guns with real ammo), they should be stored separately from one another in clearly-labelled containers
– nobody should make claims about the nature of a gun (live, not live, not a real gun, etc) other than the armourer
– if anyone other than the armourer does make a claim about the nature of a gun, they should be ignored
– in addition to the armourer having custody of and responsibility for guns, there should also be a named senior production officer who has responsibility for ensuring that everyone on set, including the armourer, is following these custody rules.
Personally, being gun-paranoid, I’d want all guns to be assumed to be live, not pointed at people, and not used casually around crew outside of planned shots, and any crewmembers around when a gun is being used should be behind shields. But I appreciate that people might think this is overkill, and shouldn’t be necessary IF the above rules (or something similar) on gun custody were followed responsibly. But having robust custody rules is essential: if you allow the situation where mistakes can happen to arise enough times, mistakes will eventually happen (at least four times on this one film shoot!). It shouldn’t be hard: as a society, we mostly manage to operate custody rules on all sorts of things, from forensic evidence through to biohazards. If you’re going to have guns, you should treat them seriously.Of course, I’m aware that this happened in a country where people are routinely shot by their own dogs. [at least six times between 2010 and 2015, and at least twice in 2018 alone; this year, an American dog killed itself with a gun. Still not as ridiculous as that time in 2004 when a Florida man was attempting – as one apparently does in Florida – to shoot seven puppies, only to be stopped when one of the puppies disarmed him by shooting him in the wrist in return, leading to his apprehension by the authorities…] So I guess maybe it’s naive to expect any sort of gun safety protocols at all…
I watched a video by a professional shooter/movie consultant/armorer yesterday talking about the way that things are commonly done on film sets where guns are in use, and all of the basic principles you defined are routinely followed, according to her. The shock in her eyes that this could even happen spoke volumes.
its fucking 2021 and movies can’t find guns that look real but have zero chance of injuring someone?
INACCURATE INFORMATION PLEASE UPDATE The word “bullet” should not be usedbullets are what real guns use to kill people, the “live round” that IATSE was referring to is a blank round that is intended to be safe.Obviously the blank round did not fire correctly, however the word “bullet” is inaccurate and implies that this was more than an accident
In the context of ammunition, live means “charged with explosives and containing shot or a bullet.” A blank by definition is not a live round.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/live
I am still not sure how a single bullet from a rifle kills the DP AND wounds the Director. One behind the other maybe?
We don’t know enough yet and lots of the wording is unclear.Still a terrible tragedy and certainly something that should not have happened.Prop gun can encompass anything from an rubber replica to a real firearm that’s been modified to fire specialized blank rounds (minus a projectile). Obviously, this seems to be the case of a modified, blank-firing firearm if fatal injuries are involved.Live round can similarly be interpreted from a blank round (used exclusively for film sets and re-enactment) to a manufactured piece of ammunition meant to expel a projectile. Short of one scene I can think of offhand (The Abyss), I can’t think of a single time a real projectile has been used as a stand in for a prop. If a REAL piece of ammunition made it’s way on set, that is inexcusable and big-boy or girl jail-time should be in play.Blanks are loaded hotter (more powerfully) than conventional “real” ammunition to allow for the nice muzzle flash that people are used to seeing on film and TV. This is why real guns don’t produce flashes like you see on TV. It’s meant to all combust outside the barrel without any of the energy pushing a projectile. That being said, it is still a FUCKLOAD of concussion going off and can injure or kill you if close enough. It’s still a detonation. It’s still enough to explode your eye or fracture a piece of skull and push it into your brain.I’m going to take a guess that this is the result of a blank cartridge in a gun that was either unknowingly loaded into the gun and therefore the proper precautions were not taken as a discharge was not expected or that there might have been an obstruction that was forced out when the blank went off…similar to what happened to Brandon Lee.If it was a real piece of ammo that found it’s way on set, this is a fuckup of the highest order. There is never a reason for a real round on set…ever. Not with modern VFX.
I’ll be honest that I know nothing about guns. I know that blanks can still kill at close range. But even if they were standing fairly near to the gun (and each other), could a blank really travel, go straight through a person (apparently through their ribcage?), exit, travel again, and then still have enough force to penetrate a second person?
Because if so, ‘blank’ seems a misnomer. And it’s remarkable that more deaths like this don’t occur!
I don’t understand why they still use prop guns that are capable of actually killing someone. Could they not design a realistic looking prop gun that doesn’t also accommodate real live rounds or discharge potentially dangerous projectiles? Why didn’t the deaths of Jon Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee convince Hollywood to stop using these fucking things?
Local 44 member here. The statement issued by our Local “There were no Local 44 members working on this show” doesn’t mean the crew member in question was not union at all. Local 44 is an LA union assigned to handle firearms. However the statement is just confirming that an *LA 44* crew member was not hired to work in New Mexico. The crew member could have been a member of Local 480 which is New Mexico’s jurisdiction, or an out of state hire from another Local from any part of the country. Every state has Prop Masters or Armorers that operate firearms as members of various union Locals –not just Local 44 in LA, and any one of them could have been an out-of-state hire.
How has this happened again? I would think with any gun used as a prop, the absolute first thing you do is check the chambers and the ammunition used. It just almost defies belief that even a beginner would not know this.
I mean, I wouldn’t know how to check in the first place. That’s why I assume films have armorers.
They’d probably teach you how to check, but they probably wouldn’t want you to since you, being inexperienced, might make some mistake that the professional armorer would not. That’s why it’s silly for anyone to say Baldwin was expected to check, Baldwin was almost certainly not intended to do anything with the gun himself other than practice (film) shots and act while using it on camera.
“Live round” does not mean“live bullet”. Anything with a charge, including a blank, is considered “live”. Fix your headline.
Whatever it “sounds like” to our roving band of drive-by analysts, what a horrifically sad story for all involved, starting with Ms. Hutchins, Mr. Souza, their families, the cast and crew, down to Alec Baldwin. Can’t be undone, but hoping all parties are able to cope with this.
What in the FUCK. Prop guns should be manufactured in a completely different factory by a different company and should not be designed to fire bullets. Why the fuck is this still a thing.
i believe in the hallwat scene at the end of the Matrix, the one where Neo stops bullets in mid air, real bullets were fired at Keanu Reeves but there was bulletproof glass between him and the bullets.
Admittedly, I don’t work in showbiz and know nothing about how films are made. However, this particular “accident” rather overtly begs the question: What the fuck was Alec Baldwin doing pointing a gun, even a prop gun, at the director (who was also injured) and the cinematographer? Who staged THAT particular scene or was Baldwin just fucking around with things he had no business putting his hands on?In any event, however, this tragedy played out, there’s gonna be a LOT of money thrown around the industry and at the family of the cinematographer, just to keep Baldwin’s repolished “swine before pearls” persona intact and the studio coffers from hemorrhaging red ink. And whatever Baldwin’s culpability in events (which, by my measure is substantial), it’ll be the prop master who takes the full 100% in the ass. This one is a career-ender.RIP Ms. Hutchins.
it is possible he was required to aim at he camera and the people that got hit were behind that.
Could be, and that’s a reasonable explanation and quite plausible. But any idiot knows that you do not point a gun – even an ostensibly unloaded or “safe” weapon – at anyone, at any time. So what I am reading about the incident just doesn’t track. However, thus far (to my knowledge), very few details have been released that would explain the accident. And I find that both strange and disturbing.Do you remember a few years ago there was a news story about Sarah Jones, the camerawoman who was hit by a train because they were filming on a trestle bridge and she was unable to get to safety to avoid being hit by an oncoming train? When that story was first announced, we were given all of the details right away in exquisite detail and from several different sources, including, if I remember correctly, a statement of events by William Hurt who witnessed the accident. Hell, there were even some pictures of the aftermath published within the first 12 hours following her death. We got the whole story, right from the get-go.But every bit of news that has come out about the “Baldwin Shooting,” as some of the more popular rags are calling the incident, seems vague and detached. I have not read any personal eye-witness accounts (that’s not to say there aren’t any), and that in and of itself is very unusual. Certainly social media is more efficient these days than when Ms. Jones was killed, so it is clear that there is something that is being rather jealously guarded by those in the know. In any event, we have not heard the whole story as yet; I’m not even convinced we’ve heard the correct story. But I could be wrong. Time will tell…
Hey, I can talk out of my ass about shit I know nothing about, too!
I mean, obviously you hate Alec Baldwin (can’t understand why, but i’m sure you have your bigly reasons) so let’s extend that kind of irrational hatred that YOU have, to the armorer who shouldn’t have had a live piece of ammunition on that set at all. Maybe HE had that same sad, vapid, idiot hatred for the man, too, and wanted to set him up! You know, in the deplorable, idiot fashion of MAGA, doing the absolute wrong thing because you believe in your stupid, smooth brain it’s “right” and everyone else agrees with you and they’ll clap and clap and clap and waive around a Trump 2024 flag while they masterbate each other. Or whatever MAGAs do when they’re not being their wives.
But ya, RIP Ms Hutchins, cuz you *care*.
Why all the hostility? I don’t like Alec Baldwin personally, you got that part right. Let’s face it; he’s a dick. However, oddly enough, I think he’s an incredibly gifted actor and I always enjoy anything in which he appears. Nevertheless, I, like many others in this forum and others out there in cyber-land, think that there is more to this story than what we’ve been told; thus, I am exercising my democratic right to express an opinion, offer half-assed hypotheses, or just plain wildly speculate. If that offends you, little snowflake, well… tough shit. You’ll get over it.By the way, I am not a Republican.What I am is a long-time healthcare provider and I have seen my share of trauma over the course of my career. And I mean some really, really tragic accidents (and a number of non-accidents, as well), many of which resulted in one or more deaths. Some of them quite grisly. Watching a patient die is never easy, especially when they are young, and especially after doing all that you can to save them. And this death was completely avoidable. So you can rest assured that, when I wish Ms. Hutchins Godspeed in the afterlife, I am quite sincere in that sentiment. Please do not tarnish her memory by childishly indulging in a self-aggrandizing smack-down when it is clear that you lack the necessary tools for such an exercise. Because, honey, you really went off the rails with your little rant. I am being rude, I know, but perhaps next time someone posts a comment with which you do not agree, you will stop and consider whether or not that comment (or commenter) truly threatens you in some way or is only expressing an opinion that you had not yet considered. At that point, you might consider responding more appropriately. Cheers!
Oh, well, now that all those experts in “cyberland” have given their opinion, I guess y’all can eat a bag of dicks.
And lo and behold, this comment has totally stood up well to new information coming out
This is fucking tragic, but it’s gross how some folks like EB here want to use this to wildly speculate that Alec Baldwin “did this.”
To be fair, at the time, it wasn’t that far out of the realm of reasonable supposition to think that goofing around would have been the cause of this tragedy. That would make more sense than the incredible series of events that ACTUALLY transpired.
User name checks out.
There seems to be some confusion as to what a “prop gun” is.A true “prop gun” is an inert piece of plastic or other similar material that is 100% non-functional.Guns used for actual shooting scenes are real weapons.As I understand things (according to what I have heard and read on the internet), this movie is a western and the weapon used was a revolver. For the sake of realism, blanks are used in revolvers in order to generate realistic recoil action.Still, someone dropped the ball badly in this case. There may be a need for real ammo for some scenes, for example: a cowboy shooting bottles for target practice (it’s cheaper and easier to use real bullets).
But for scenes where an actor is pointing and shooting a gun at another person (either cast or crew) then gun should have been double checked to make sure ‘only’ a blank was loaded.
So it’s manslaughter then. People should be charged and go to jail.
Latest account: “The crew and actors were performing a rehearsal for a scene in Rust, Baldwin’s latest project in which he is working as an actor and producer. Cameras were set up on the scene.The film crew’s armorer had laid three “prop guns” out on a rolling cart, and the film’s assistant director grabbed one for the rehearsal and handed it to Baldwin. (Though the armorer and the assistant director are named in the affidavit, SFR is not identifying them because neither has been accused or charged with a crime.)That’s when the assistant director signaled to those gathered for the rehearsal that there was no live ammunition in the gun by shouting: “Cold gun.”The assistant director “did not know live rounds were in the prop-gun,” Cano wrote in the affidavit.https://www.sfreporter.com/news/2021/10/22/documents-alec-baldwin-fired-live-ammo-in-accidental-shooting/
So, to be clear…- they had an actual working gun, loaded, with actual live rounds in it, sitting around on set
– they put this gun on a cart, unlabelled, with two other non-deadly guns
– someone who was NOT the guy whose job it was to handle these guns randomly picked up the gun, thought it looked about right for the task without investigating much, and handed it to an actor
– that person didn’t check to see whether the gun was loaded, or with what
– that person then helpfully told everyone the gun was not loaded, despite not having checkedSummary: WHAT THE FUCK!?
“Live Round” in movies refers to it having gunpowder like blanks. Real ammo would never be used on set like this except in a very controlled manner to get a specific shot, like Mythbusters.The article above does not mention real bullets. It just says live round, so I would assume it was a blank until someone actually says real bullet.
The round went through one person and into a second. It sure as fuck was a loaded live round and not a blank.
I’m still puzzled why the guns were “live” to begin with. Wouldn’t it be easier and safer to bring them on set pre-unloaded?
Basic gun safety
1) Always treat a gun like it is loaded with live ammunition.
2) Always get someone familiar with that firearm to teach you how to load, unload, where the safety is, and in the case of magazines how to load and unload the magazine.3) Never point a gun at a person
4) Always clock some range time practicing with a firearm before “using” it.
Yeah that’s not how it works on film sets. Nobody is expecting every actor to know how to use a gun. That’s why they are supposed to have specialists present to ensure the gun isn’t loaded.
Actually, that’s exactly how it works on film sets. Actors who are going to be handling a gun get gun safety training.
There’s an IA Members Instagram account that was set up about a week ago for anonymously talking about issues related to the strike. Their latest post is a screenshot of a conversation with (it claims) a crew union member on Rust who says the producers knew damn well this could happen. Among various worker’s rights violations, they claim to have specifically complained about poor gun safety on set. They had all walked off set that morning in protest. The producers responded by calling cops on the union crew and brought in in non-union crew. This was the crew on set (along with the DP and Director) when the “accident” happened.Something like this was practically inevitable.
To quote (allegedly) one crew member’s text to the production manager: “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe.”Yeah. Hopefully that totally-innocent production manager will be able to provide detailed records of the safety improvements they no doubt then immediately made once they were informed of the potentially fatal safety issue…
I just read an article that said a “live” round can also be a blank, it just means that there’s gunpowder in it.
There is a reason you treat guns as if they have a live vhamber. Im interested to hear how this is even possible, without someone fucking about. All i know is someone is going to be sued. I mean union rules say you ant even point a gun directly at someone, not actor nor stunt person. I think they are all pointed away from the person but framed to appear directly at them. iirc. Very sad.
This demonstrates why EVERY actor should invest in classes of some sort for firearms handling. They are their own last line of defense against this sort of accident and really should be checking the weapon one final time for their own satisfaction before performing the scene.
“More firearms training” arguments are always just posturing. Guns are inherently dangerous no matter how much “training” you have. There is NO safe way to handle a gun. Something made expressly for killing should never be considered safe. They can be handled carefully, but never safely. I’ve never had a millisecond of “firearms training” and have handled guns without accident since I was a young teenager. Classes are great, but guns are only as safe as the decisions people make. Send somebody that buys into all the right-wing bullshit to as many classes as you want. He (or she) is still a dangerous idiot just looking for an excuse to stand some ground.This accident is fishy as hell, and I would really like to know more details. Baldwin is probably the highest-profile really vocal opponent of the right wing in Hollywood. And we’ve seen over the last few years that even the mainstream right has become capable of absolutely anything. It’s not unreasonable to think that he was set up by somebody on the set. Just look at social media – the right absolutely rewards that kind of behavior. I remember when the same thing happened to Brandon Lee, so I’ll temper getting too paranoid about it, but it’s 2021, not 1993. There’s ample reason to be paranoid. In the 90s the McVeighs of the world surely existed, but back then they were not indistinguishable from mainstream republicans.
If they do not charge Baldwin with manslaughter then there is a blatant double standard. Anyone else would be in jail awaiting trial.In his entire career with so many movies and so many guns he has never had any proper gun safety training?They had “accidental” discharges multiple times on the set.Every gun is loaded until you have checked the gun yourself. That’s literally the #1 rule of gun safety. #2 is NEVER point it at anyone.He was just dicking around and killed someone, and you can’t blame anyone else for loading the gun, BALDWIN should have checked the gun himself.How we let people hold guns without proper training is absolutely mind blowing.Baldwin should be charged with manslaughter, then probably the producers and everyone who touched the firearms.Sucks to be him, but its up to a jury to decide his fate, regardless if you like him or not. He shot and killed a woman, that’s manslaughter.
Now the latest is that the AD said it was a “Cold Gun” before handing it to Baldwin Allegedly their were 3 versions of the gun on the table, possibly he grabbed the wrong one.Now there are rumors circulating from supposed crew that he was vary nonchalant about the on set gun safety lectures your supposed to do every time a firearm is out. That still a rumors as far as i know but if true it is sort of ironic because the AD in question has been in the industry for quite a while worked on a lot of major action moviesOne of them being a sequel to the Crow.
So someone royally fucked this up and it lead to cinematographer’s death. This really speaks to how badly mismanaged this production have been.Hopefully we can get answers to this tragedy so that it shouldn’t happens again for anyone else.
Well, from the article, it’s a job they shouldn’t have had or been doing https://www.jobs24pk.website/
Might wanna update this to the crew using the guns for target practice and some asshole forgot to unload the gun after.