The actor: Christine Lahti started her career in the theater in the ’70s, but before the end of the decade, she had already begun to find significant footholds on both the big and small screen, securing her first series-regular role in 1978 (albeit a short-lived one, as you’ll soon learn) and scoring her first film role the following year, working alongside no less legendary an actor than Al Pacino. Lahti’s filmography continued to grow at a rapid pace, and she successfully walked a career tightrope that eventually led to an Oscar nomination for acting (Swing Shift), an Oscar win for directing the short film Lieberman In Love, and a somewhat infamous Golden Globes win for her work on the CBS series Chicago Hope.
For the past few years, Lahti has been enjoying the opportunity to be slightly despicable via her role in the Paramount+ drama Evil, and while the series is ostensibly coming to a conclusion at the end of its fourth season, which kicked off on May 23, there’s still the chance that its fate could yet change if another streamer decides to pick it up. As such, Lahti was happy to hop on the line with the A.V. Club to discuss her work on Evil as well as some other highlights—and, yes, a few lowlights (stand up, please, Hideaway)—of her long and illustrious career as both actor and director, including all of the aforementioned projects as well as everything from Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains to Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip and much more.
The A.V. Club: I was able to preview the first four new episodes of Evil before hopping on the line with you, and I was thrilled to see that, well, let’s just say you’re working for equality in the workplace.
Christine Lahti: I really am. And how about that glass ceiling? My new office has a literal glass ceiling. [Laughs.]
AVC: How did you find your way onto Evil in the first place? Did they reach out to you?
CL: Yes, they did. And I knew Katja Herbers. She had worked with my husband on a series called Manhattan, and she reached out to me and said, “Oh, please play my mama.” And there wasn’t a lot to do in the pilot, but I so trusted Michelle and Robert King, who created it and wrote it, because I worked with them on The Good Wife and The Good Fight, so I completely trusted that they were going to create a fascinating character. And they were true to their word: she really is an incredibly wild, fascinating, challenging character.
AVC: How much did they tell you about Sheryl’s storyline going in?
CL: Not much. I mean, we kind of brainstormed about a possible backstory that she was kind of a rock and roller and a groupie back in the day and hung out with male bands and was probably not treated so great by men and has had her share of probably some predators and some abuse. So there’s some history that she has that she carries with her, in terms of being very sensitive to that again. So when Leland treats her less than humanly, I guess you’d say, it hits a chord. And she’s out to, I think, ultimately bring him down by whatever means she can.
AVC: Were you aware early on of how Satanic your story would become?
CL: No! No, I knew that she was going to be complex, but the first hint I got of her… dark side, I guess, was when she’s advising her granddaughter how to deal with a bully, and she says, “You just put a rock in your hand, and you hide it, and then when you hit them, you have this force of a rock in your hand, and then you let the rock go, so they never know, and that person will never bully you again.” And when I first read that, I went, “Oh! Okay. Interesting advice to be giving your granddaughter…” But there are actually parents who believe that the only way to stop a bully is to out-bully them… and maybe a little hit on the face is the way to go? I don’t know. But that was the pinpoint for me. I was, like, “Okay, now I get what she’s doing, and that she’s going to be ‘whatever means possible’ to stop misogyny, to stop bullying, to stop sexism. She’s gonna take it on.”
AVC: Do you have a particular favorite scene with Michael Emerson? Because you’ve had quite a few delicious ones.
CL: Oh, God, so many. [Laughs.] Gosh… I think the scene in the bar in the restaurant, where I slap him twice and I say, “You’re not the first demon I’ve ever gone out with.” And basically I completely scare the shit out of him. And I love the end of that scene, because he’s coming on, and you think he’s going to confront me and stop me from doing whatever, and I slap him, and then we leave the scene with him looking at me like, “Oh, geez… I’ve just met my match!”
AVC: We ask readers to suggest things to ask about, and we got a very specific question from a Mr. Kurt Fuller, who wanted to know, “Ask her if working with me is fabulous in every way.”
CL: [Bursts out laughing.] Only Kurt would ask that question. It has to be about him, right? Kurt is a dream. There was kind of a hint that maybe Kurt’s character and my character were going to have a little fling. It didn’t really happen. But I loved working with Kurt. Yes, the answer is, it was beyond fantastic.
AVC: We like to try and go as far back in an actor’s on-camera history as possible, and you actually had three in your first year, but one of those three was certainly your first series-regular role: The Harvey Korman Show.
CL: Yes! My first film was And Justice For All, with Al Pacino, but my first series was The Harvey Korman Show. And I nearly had a nervous breakdown deciding to do it, because back in those days, if you were on a sitcom, it was kind of the kiss of death. There was no respect anymore. And I was such a theater snob and kind of an artistic snob, and to lower myself to do a sitcom was… a lot. But I thought, “Well, it’s Harvey Korman, he’s such a genius…” And I loved him on The Carol Burnett Show. And I was kind of praying that it wouldn’t last, though, to be honest. I was, like, “Well, this would be good, it would pay my rent, and I’d love working with him… but I hope it doesn’t run for 12 years!” And it only ran for six episodes. [Laughs.] So I got my wish!
AVC: I couldn’t tell if that was actually your first on-camera gig or not. The other contenders were two TV movies: Dr. Scorpion and The Last Tenant.
CL: Yeah, those were just standalone movies of the week, as they called them back then. Movies for television. And those were great. I loved doing those. I did a lot of those, and they were just incredibly interesting, usually fun, challenging characters. But there wasn’t that commitment of five years or seven years or whatever it might be for a series.
AVC: For the record, I did find episodes of The Harvey Korman Show on YouTube.
CL: [Laughs.] They’re funny, right?
AVC: I only watched one, but I enjoyed it. And you were clearly having a lot of fun.
CL: We definitely had a lot of fun, yeah.
AVC: What’s your first thought when you look back at that experience?
CL: Extraordinary. Sidney Lumet, River Phoenix, Judd Hirsch, Martha Plimpton… I mean, it was also a character very close to my heart. I wasn’t as radical as Annie Pope, but I was definitely an activist in the late ’60s and early ’70s at the University of Michigan, a hippie. I was very much a burgeoning feminist. So I really understood what was going on with her. Again, she was way more radical than I would ever be, and she was having to live underground because of it.
AVC: When we spoke to Martha Plimpton for this feature, she said of River Phoenix, “It was good for me as a young actor to be in the company of another young actor who took his job seriously.”
CL: Yeah, I mean, River was so truly and naturally gifted, and he used to kill me, because he never studied. He never studied acting, he just had that. And I’m someone that believes that you have to study for 20 years before you can even begin to really be an actor, so he just proved everything that I believed wrong. [Laughs.] He just had this natural innate gift. And of course his story is so tragic and sad. He had such incredible promise and talent.
AVC: One other question: how did you enjoy working with Steven Hill?
CL: Oh, my God, I forgot to mention Steven Hill! Well, that scene has become iconic. He was so good. It was the kind of thing where I knew that all I had to do was look in his eyes and not think about anything but responding to what he gave me. That was all I had to do. It was that kind of immediate trust. He was so present. And again I could relate to it, because my father and I had some differences. He was very Republican and I was… not. [Laughs.] So I had a lot to bring to that scene. I remember after the first take, Sidney Lumet had two cameras so that we didn’t have to do a lot of repetition, a lot of takes, and he came up to us and said, “How do you think that went?” And I look around, and all these burly guys in the crew were crying. They’re all weeping. And I said, “I think it went pretty well…”
CL: Oh, wow. That was a series that should’ve had more time. I think it only had one season, and I just loved that character. She was so flawed, and… just the idea of one of these boys is going to grow up to be President and how dysfunctional that family was, and yet so well-meaning. And she was in some ways a child herself, she just wanted the respect and approval of her sons way too much to be an effective parent. But I loved her. I loved her humor, I loved her smarts, and—again—her feminism. She was a great character.
AVC: How did you enjoy the experience of working with Bradley Cooper?
CL: Well, that was fun! I got to be on a dining room table having simulated sex with Bradley Cooper before he was Bradley Cooper… and that was really, really fun. [Laughs.] Yeah, I loved it. It was great. It was maybe on the wrong network. It was on… The WB back then? Which is now The CW? Yeah, I think if it had been on CBS or another network, it would’ve had a longer life maybe. But it didn’t quite find its footing on the WB.
CL: Wow, you’re digging way back! I love Aunt Linda! It was a little part in a wild movie. Laura Dern played my niece. I think she was, like, 11! I’m still close to Laura. I love her so much. Diane Lane, of course, was the head of the Stains, this all-female punk group. And I just remember the scenes… I guess I was interviewed for a TV show or something, and I’m talking about them and… I don’t remember much specifically, but I just remember loving the experience.
AVC: Were you around at all when Steve Jones and Paul Cook from the Sex Pistols were there?
CL: They weren’t there when I was shooting. But definitely Diane and Laura got to work with them. Diane and Laura were so good in that movie. They were so young, but they were just really confident and… I don’t know, they were just powerful young women.
CL: Wow, okay, Dr. Kate Austin was… Again, I guess I’ve just played a lot of… [Hesitates.] Can I say “fucked up”?
AVC: Absolutely.
CL: …a lot of fucked-up people. Flawed, I think well-meaning, but complicated women. She was in an all-men’s world as a heart surgeon back then, one of the few females, so she had to battle that kind of sexism and misogyny more than many, many of the characters I’ve played. Sheryl [from Evil], I think, maybe has to battle it even more, because if you’ve seen the episode where the glass ceiling in her office is literally so low that in order to be in there, she has to crouch or crawl on the floor, because the glass ceiling is so low… [Laughs.] I think that’s just such a brilliant set design. So of course Sheryl has to go out and do everything she can to shatter that. But, yeah, I think Dr. Kate Austin is a warrior in some ways. She really did fight the good fight.
AVC: Who was the most interesting to work with, Mandy Patinkin or Ron Silver?
CL: Oh, wow. Um… I didn’t work with Mandy very much. I think I only had a couple of episodes with him, and then he left, and I kind of took over his role in the series. So I’d have to say Ron, because we had a lot more to do together. He played my ex-husband and father of my child. We just had a lot more stuff to do together. But they’re both great.
AVC: That was the first time you had the opportunity to step behind the camera, right?
CL: I believe… [Hesitates.] No, I believe I had directed a short film by then.
AVC: Okay, right. I knew about that. I just wasn’t sure where it fell on the timeline.
CL: Yeah, I did Lieberman In Love… which won an Oscar, if I can drop that.
AVC: Absolutely.
CL: [Laughs.] I mean, why not, right? But, yeah, I had directed a short film, and then I directed an episode of Chicago Hope. So that was my second directing thing, and then I did the feature, My First Mister.
AVC: I’m obliged to ask you where you keep your Oscar.
CL: Around my neck, usually. [Laughs.] No, It’d be a little hard to walk around with an Oscar hanging from your neck! So it’s on a bookshelf in my office at home in L.A.
[Although many readers wanted to get the story on Lahti’s infamous Golden Globe win for Chicago Hope, i.e. when her name was announced while she was in the bathroom, there was no point in asking about it, since Lahti told the definitive version of that story in a Vulture piece earlier this year.]
AVC: Speaking of My First Mister, how was the experience of directing Albert Brooks, given that he’s spent a great deal of his career directing himself?
CL: I loved working with Albert. The one thing Albert asked me to do… He said, “Just promise me you’ll never move on until you’ve got it.” And I assured him that that was not a problem, I’d never move on until I got it. And he really, I think, trusted me. We had a lot of rehearsal. I would sometimes to go to rehearsal with a tape recorder back in the day – we didn’t have phones to record – and I’d tape his improvisations, and I’d put them right into the script. His lines were so brilliant and funny, and I’d be a fool not to mine that gold. So I loved working with him.
AVC: When will we see you direct again? Because it’s been a while.
CL: It’s been a long time. I’m looking – actively looking – for something to direct. It’s interesting: somebody tweeted about My First Mister being one of their favorite movies of that year, whatever year it was. 2001? Oh, my God, it was a long time ago! [Laughs.] Anyway, someone said it was their favorite movie, so I had some time over the weekend, and I watched it again, for the first time in maybe 20 years, and I was bawling like a baby. I was crying so hard. And I thought, “Oh! Okay, this film still holds up. This is moving. This is good!”
CL: Okay, well, Jonathan Demme… You can’t get better than Jonathan Demme. Goldie Hawn was an extraordinary co-star, and Kurt Russell… They kind of fell in love on that movie, and I got to witness that, which was pretty magical. Hazel was, again, so flawed and funny and strong, and I got to sing, which was really fun. Not that well… [Laughs.] But I got to sing! Definitely a highlight of my career. I loved it.
AVC: Do you enjoy the opportunity to do period pieces like that one?
CL: I do, yeah! I really loved that. I did another one that Goldie directed called Hope.
AVC: That was also on my list. You played Emma Percy.
CL: Yes! Oh, my God. Wow, you’re really good. [Laughs.] Yes, that was really a fun character, and it was so fun to be directed by Goldie.
AVC: I was going to ask what it was like to have Goldie as your director. Because I think that was her first time behind the camera, wasn’t it?
CL: It was her first… and I think only! But, yeah, it was incredible. She was a natural.
CL: Oh, my lord… [Laughing.] So, okay, I love Jeff Goldblum… and that was the best part of it. But the actual movie, I’m… not sure I’ve even told my kids that I was in that movie. It’s not my favorite movie that I’ve been in. I don’t really like any kind of blood or gore, even though you might be surprised, even though there is some of that on Evil. But I think that Evil… Again, because of its humor, because of its intelligence and feminism, I kind of can forgive some of the violence in it. Whereas this was just bloody and gory and… it didn’t have that advantage.
AVC: This one is solely to satisfy my curiosity, but… what do you remember about the experience of being an understudy in Marco Polo Sings A Solo?
CL: My God, you’re amazing. Amazing.
AVC: I literally don’t know anything about it other than the cast. That’s what drew me to ask about it.
CL: I’m understudying Sigourney Weaver and Anne Jackson in a John Guare play. It was maybe one of my first jobs in New York, and the understudies had to come every night and stay for, like, half an hour just to make sure everybody was okay, and then you could leave. I never went on. I just remember being so close to the other understudies and loving them all so much and being so grateful that I never had to go on. [Laughs.] Because it’s terrifying. I mean, it’s bad enough… You know, I’m a stage actress, and I’m nervous every time I go on stage, which I’ve now come to be grateful for. I like the energy of the nerves, and I think every character is nervous about something, so I can channel that anxiety into a character. But at that point, I was just terrified about the idea of going on with such little rehearsal. And sometimes, you know, understudies have no notice. They’re, like, “Okay, go change. Someone’s throwing up in the wings. You’re on!” It’s terrifying. So I loved the experience, but I’m grateful that I didn’t actually have to do it!
AVC: Do you have a single favorite theater experience overall?
CL: Hmmm… Wow, well, I just performed in a play that I wrote called The Smile Of Her. I wrote it, and I starred in it, and it also starred a young woman named Georgi James, who’s amazing. And we did it out in the Berkshires at the Unicorn Theater this past summer. I’m looking to do it in New York off-Broadway or L.A. And that’s maybe one of my most favorite. The other one might be The Heidi Chronicles, by Wendy Wasserstein. That was really fun. And Wendy Wasserstein was, I think, the spokesperson for my generation of women. She was so gifted and funny. And talk about a feminist! She was everything to me.
CL: Ah, yes! Wow, well, that was quite a journey. Mariska [Hargitay] was extraordinary. The whole cast was incredibly welcoming and open and generous. By that time, they already done it, I guess, 10 or 12 years. Now they’re on season 25 or something! But even back then they’d already done it for quite awhile. And I do remember… I don’t think I’ve ever been on a show that was that popular. So the day after they aired that scene where I slap Chris Meloni in the face, I went to Starbucks, and all these people were looking at me. And this one woman looked at me and said, “You bitch.” And I thought, “They think I’m that character… and they’re mad because I slapped their hero on the face!” And I just say, “Okay, get a life. That’s not me. I didn’t really slap him. It was a fake slap.” [Laughs.] But I thought, “This is really bizarre, being that identified with a character…” I had not experienced that before.
AVC: I will say that you gave a drunk scene for the ages during one of your episodes.
CL: Oh, thank you. And that’s an interesting story. I had read… Who was it? Some actor had written that, because he had become sober, he couldn’t drink for a drunk scene. I want to say maybe it was Dennis Hopper or somebody like that. Anyway, his trick was to spin around in circles to get that sort of loss of equilibrium. And I wasn’t going to drink for a drunk scene anyway. You’ve got to find a different way. So I tried that spinning, and I was spinning and spinning and spinning…and then the director says, “Action! Oh, wait, hold the camera. Can you readjust that light?” And I’m still spinning, I’m spinning… “Okay, can you reset the camera?” And I’m still spinning, spinning, spinning… By the time we did the scene, I was so dizzy. And then my job, of course, which is what you do in real life if you’re drunk, is to try and appear sober. So I tried to walk in a straight line. That’s my objective. But my obstacle is that I’m so dizzy… [Laughs.] It worked great for the scene. But cut to two weeks later, I’m still dizzy. It actually fucked up my equilibrium, my inner ear. I had to take this medication for people who get seasickness. I finally got it back, but that was scary! I didn’t realize you could really upset your inner-ear equilibrium that way.
CL: Okay, all-time favorite. That’s it. You just hit on the most favorite character, the most favorite film, and one of my most favorite directors, Bill Forsyth. Oh, my God, and a brilliant novel by Marilynne Robinson. Brilliant writing, and the character of a lifetime. I just couldn’t ask for more.
AVC: How was Forsyth as a director? He’s kind of legendary.
CL: Yes, he was incredible. He credits me with kind of co-directing it, but it’s not true. I just worked well with the little girls, who were not very experienced actors. I just did a lot of improvisations with them and rehearsal, and I think that helped our chemistry a lot and helped inform the scenes a lot. He was just so open and just magical as a person. I kind of fashioned my character off of him. One day he came to the set with his sweater completely misbuttoned. Like, off a button. I thought, “That’s a great thing for Sylvie. She wouldn’t give a shit about buttoning her buttons in an orderly fashion. She’d do it in such a hurry or be so distracted by the possibilities of life,” which is what it says on the poster, “that she wouldn’t care about that kind of anal buttoning.” So, yeah, he reminded me of Sylvie in a lot of ways.
CL: Oh, my gosh.
AVC: I actually watched it for the first time a few days ago—it’s out there for streaming—and I thought it was fantastic.
CL: Was it? I… I don’t think I ever saw it! We shot it in England, which was really fun.
AVC: I was curious how it came about.
CL: I don’t know. I think it was just a straight offer! I don’t remember auditioning for it. I think it was just an offer. Again, it wasn’t a long commitment—it was only four episodes—and I got to go to London, and it seemed like a really fun character, and good people involved. But I don’t really have a lot of memory of that.
AVC: Well, I’ll say this much: your fashion is definitely memorable… and very 1981.
CL: With the big shoulder pads?
AVC: I can’t swear to that. But you’re definitely sporting a dark purple satin jacket with light purple jeans.
CL: [Laughs.] I love that! Well, I know we used to put shoulder pads in the t-shirts. If we wore a t-shirt, we’d actually Velcro shoulder pads in the t-shirts. [Shrugs.] What can I say? It was a wild time.
CL: [Sweetly.] Oh, my husband directed that. Yes, and Ruben Blades was my co-star. He was incredible. I loved it. I loved that movie! It had so much heart, and I just loved the theme of it. I loved that this high school principal fell in love with a Hispanic janitor. It was such a beautiful love story, kind of a Romeo And Juliet kind of love story.
CL: Whoa. Okay, so… that was a miniseries. I remember working with Kris Kristofferson on that. It was kind of prescient. I mean, it was how the ways in which Russia… It was obviously a fantasy—or sci-fi, I guess—that America became infiltrated by Russia. I just did a play called Russian Troll Farm about the trolls that influenced our 2016 election and helped get Trump elected and helped defeat Hilary Clinton, and I was a Russian, a former KGB officer and one of the heads of this actual troll factory that had employed hundreds and hundreds of people to put out this false information. So it just connects me to Amerika, in that that was kind of a further extension of Russian Troll Farm.
AVC: What was it like working with Kristofferson?
CL: He was great. I loved working with him. All good things. I was such a fan of his music and didn’t really know him as an actor that well, but… Wait, he was in A Star Is Born. Is that right?
AVC: Yeah, exactly.
CL: See, I can ask you anything and you’ll know. [Laughs.] Yes, he was wonderful in that. But, yeah, I loved working with him. He was great.
AVC: You mentioned it offhandedly, but being as it was your first film and you were working with Pacino, I wanted to circle back to And Justice For All.
CL: Yeah, well, Norman Jewison was incredible. Al and I work the same way—we love to improvise, we love to rehearse—so that was very helpful, being as it was my first film and I was pretty nervous. But he was just unbelievably collaborative and came from the theater, so he got where I was coming from. It was a great opportunity and a great experience.
CL: Okay, to be honest, I did that for daughter cred. [Laughs.] My daughter was mad about Beyoncé, as I was and am, and I thought, “Well, if I can work with Beyoncé, I think my daughter might really like me better.” So I did, and it was really fun. It was a very little part. I adored Beyoncé. She was so sweet and unassuming and kind and amazing. The actual film is, y’know, not one of my favorites. But I had a good time. I worked with Idris Elba, who was also incredible. But the best part was going to the premiere with Beyoncé and my daughter.
AVC: I was going to ask if your daughter got to meet her.
CL: She did. And she was thrilled. [Laughs.]
CL: Oh, Tommy Lee Jones… Yeah. Wow. Well, I had read that book by Norman Mailer, and I loved it. And it was just a great character. She was very working class, which I love to do. And working with Tommy Lee was extraordinary. I think he was nominated for an Emmy… or maybe won an Emmy for that role. Definitely one or the other. I loved it. It was great.
AVC: I know that he can be pretty intense, particularly when he’s in character.
CL: He was intense. I will say, he was intense… and he kind of kept that character going a little bit offscreen. But he was wonderful to work with. He’s a great actor, and when you’re working with great actors, it helps you to be better.
AVC: To bring it back to your husband to close, let’s talk about your arc on Studio 60 On The Sunset Strip.
CL: Yeah, anytime I can work with my husband—that’s Tommy Schlamme!—is a dream. He’s an incredible director. And Aaron Sorkin’s writing is to die for. It’s so act-able and so smart, and it was a really fun character. Sarah Paulson I got to know from that, and of course Bradley Whitford and Matthew Perry. Oh, Matthew was so gifted. It’s such a loss. He was incredible. He was really a national treasure.