Shang-Chi director on the Mandarin, the Hulk, and the Morrises that could have been
Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings director Destin Daniel Cretton also weighs in on whether there are romantic vibes between Shang-Chi and Katy
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Note: The article below contains spoilers for Marvel’s Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings.
There are twists, turns, and tumbles aplenty in Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings, which just hit theaters this weekend. Old friends reappear in surprising new forms, old enemies become surprising new friends, and—unsurprisingly—we get a cuddly new Marvel creature to swoon over. The A.V. Club sat down with Shang-Chi director Destin Daniel Cretton to talk through all the film’s most surprising developments, from the return of The Mandarin to how in the heck The Hulk somehow became Bruce Banner again. Our video chat about all those hot topics is below, as well as a transcript of the whole shebang.
The A.V. Club: There’s someone in this movie that I think audiences are going to fall in love with, and that is Morris, of course, who is just the cutest. How many different iterations of Morris were there and how did you get to the little guy you landed on?
Destin Daniel Cretton: We worked very closely with our VFX supervisor, Chris Townsend, who has been doing Marvel movies and creating some of the coolest creatures in Marvel projects since the very beginning. So it was really fun to learn from him and to go through the process of trying to create a character that is super weird, but also pretty cute. To find that balance, we went through a number of renditions of Morris until we landed where we were.
AVC: What could we have gotten instead? Fewer wings? Was he bigger?
DDC: Yeah, there was a less cuddly version, which was a little bit like a skinned turkey. Not too fun. There were also different vocal sounds for what Morris sounded like. Some sounded a little too bowel-y, and some sounded a little too much like a pig. It was a balance. We were constantly trying things until all of us went, “Awww. I love him now.”
AVC: Some people love Iron Man 3. Some people hate Iron Man 3. Everyone has opinions about everything. I thought Ben Kingsley [as The Mandarin] was great in this. He had a purpose, in that he was basically Morris’ translator. Why did you guys decide to bring him back?
DDC: We thought it was important to hear from Trevor’s lips that it was kind of ridiculous to have him try to imitate this Asian character from China and that Trevor knew that and was moving forward with it. It was actually our hope from the very beginning when we were starting to plan out this movie that Sir Ben would be happy to join this cast and and help us sort of course correct or show all the sides of who the Mandarin character is and help develop when we went to a fully realized human being.
AVC: Speaking of character development, how did Awkwafina’s character’s journey come together? Was the plan always to have her train as a fighter or did that evolve out of conversations when she boarded the project?
DDC: Katy was was always an integral part of Shang-Chi and and his growth, but it was equally important to create a journey of her own.
Her emotional journey is something that I personally really relate to, that feeling of not wanting to try things that are that are too risky out of fear of failure. I’d rather not try and be okay than to try and fail. Even in the course of deciding to do a big movie like this, there’s a lot of fear, like a fear of failure. I have found repeatedly that when I choose to do the things that scare me, regardless of the outcome, I grow much more as a person. Watching Katy go through that personal journey was very moving for me.
AVC: Please settle a debate that my husband and I had after seeing this movie. I said that there could be some romantic undertones there between Katy and Shang-Chi because when she saw him without a shirt, she was like “whoa.” But he said “No, no, they’re just friends.”
DDC: Well, I’m not sure I want to settle that debate. I think that’s a great debate for people to have.
AVC: Okay, so we’ll have to see what happens in Shang-Chi 2.
DDC: I think a lot of us have relationships like theirs where it’s typically platonic, but there’s also a reason that people are attracted to each other even as friends, or why they click as friends and why they care deeply about each other. That care and love that Shang-Chi and Katy have for each other is very real, regardless of whether it is romantic or not. The intimacy is very deep.
AVC: Around the office, we’ve been batting something around amongst people who have seen the movie, and maybe you can answer the question: How did Bruce Banner get de-Hulk-ified in the post-credits scene? Last we saw, the two personalities were permanently fused.
DDC: I think I will leave that alone. All of that will become clear. There are a lot of things happening in the MCU, and what’s super fun now that I get to be on the inside is that I get to see how these little puzzle pieces and questions are planted that I know will be answered fairly soon. Those questions are so fun.
Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings is in theaters now. You can read our review of the movie, which we called “a project that blends Chinese and North American storytelling and star power” right here.
20 Comments
How did Bruce Banner get de-Hulk-ified in the post-credits scene? Last we saw, the two personalities were permanently fused.To be fair, it’s possible they still are…For context: When Banner first became the Hulk in the comics he was initially grey instead of green.It was later retconned that the Grey Hulk was a separate entity from the Green Hulk (Who’s also called “Savage Hulk” to differentiate him from the other Hulk entities in Banner’s body who are also green.). This Grey Hulk would move to Las Vegas and get a job as enforcer for the mafia under the alias “Joe Fixit”.Also: Joe Fixit says Trans Rights…
Can I just say that, while I appreciate that they re-designed the Abomination for the movie to make him look more like his comic counterpart, I kind of wish they went with his look from Immortal Hulk…
I’m still hoping we get Immortal Hulk one day. They’re already going into the world of horror with the new Doctor Strange, and they introduced Betty in What If? So, maybe…?
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*I absolutely hated Trevor and that stupid morris. I guess Disney just can’t make a movie without some cute and cuddly creature they can sell toys of.And did we need to have Trevor. I knew he was going to be in the movie but I was expecting a short cameo and nothing more. He practically had more screen time than Michelle Yeoh. For what? To add ANOTHER comic relief? Was Awkwafina not enough? I hated those two things.On the other hand, loved the Protector.
To be entirely fair to Morris, it was a very good representation of a hundun from Chinese mythology.
I never hate art if I’m willing to view it unless it’s directly offensive. You sound like someone who isn’t fun at parties.
If I’d known in advance that they were going to dedicate so much time to Trevor and his fuzzy sidekick I probably wouldn’t have gone to seen it, but Marvel unfortunately didn’t run the script by me first.
Awkwafina was great. I’m not sure why u dedicate time to things you dislike.
I actually liked Akwafina. I thought she was great.
My take? Trevor serves the function of deflecting earnestness when it comes to the magical nature of the story. Marvel has always sought out a character to provide irony (except in the First Avenger) to undercut the earnestness of the scenario, they do this so that those who have not fully bought in on the fantasy of it, still come away from the film with positive moments and are engaged in the scene. They chose not to have Awkwafina provide that, in part because she is going to engage with the protag to a degree (basically a friend/romance) and they’re moving away from the snarky enemies to lovers by play, and they don’t want her to seem mean about all the new stuff Shang-Chi is experiencing, it might alienate her from the audience, or make her seem too comical a character when they want you to take her seriously in the dramatic moments coming up. She rides a line that a fully comic character doesn’t have, because they want you to feel something, especially in the late scenes of the movie where she has something to do with the drama. This is why she provides comic relief, while still being competent and on the protag’s side, for the first half of the movie, and then shifts to full ally in the second half, when Trevor is introduced. If you look at Trevor’s scenes, pretty much every time he delivers a line, it cuts through any tension in the scene, just in case the moment wasn’t landing, so it ends on a “good” note. It’s a fine balance, because if you deflate things too much and make the scene itself the joke, people then think that scene is silly, but if you centre it on him, he just seems silly, and people who enjoyed the scene still do so, and those who think it’s a little dumb also get a laugh. It’s notable that once the film goes into quest mode, and we start seeing mystical adventure stuff, and strange mythical creatures (things some of the audience might be less interested in as opposed to fight scenes and explosions), we also have a daft guy who will make silly, slightly detached comments, and isn’t really good for anything but translating another character’s lines in a comedic way. The ironic character used to be more of a cynic, usually a disbeliever who was denying what was going on, until something big happened and they switched around to an enthusiastic believer, usually with a comedic button. In this film they just went for a daft guy and his cute little buddy. Marvel was especially hedging their bets with this one, notably in the depiction of the villain, and how they told us about the darker elements of the story, but never really showed us much of them. Trevor was part of that.
Trevor and Morris were fine, you care waaaaaaay too much about this.
The un-Hulk’ed Banner is pulling focus, but it’s also worth noting that Carol Danvers’ appearance was a bit different than it was in Endgame. There was lots of talk of dimension and universe hopping in Shang Chi. Do we know for sure that The Legend of the Ten Rings takes place in *our* MCU?
I’m with you, Marah. Totally romantic undertones to Katy and Shang-Chi. Like, subtle in that “they don’t realize it but everyone else does” kind of way that I love, but I totally bought into them. Their chemistry was off-the-charts and I want to see more, but I’m glad we didn’t go there this movie. I know everyone’s always “we need more platonic relationships on screen!” which is cool and true, but I can’t help but want to see them “get married.” Nothing would change! Which is great!
The best marriages are when the two partners are actually, you know, friends. Which is rarely depicted in films for some reason.
Huh, I 100% didn’t get any romantic undertones between the two of them. There was an absolute lack of physical or emotional awkwardness, that to me read more like siblings. Which is all to say, this is one of those cases where people really can read it either way. Take the ‘whoa’ shirtless scene – aesthetic appreciation can be tied to attraction, but doesn’t have to be. And that fact that Katy veered immediately from “whoa” to “where’s your shirt?” without any apparent awkwardness or hesitation or blushes, to me, reads purely like surprise/being impressed. It’d be like if a friend suddenly played a flawless piano concerto. If they do try to turn them into a couple, it’s going to require very delicately handled shifts in how they’re written for it not to seem (to me) like an out-of-left-field, our audiences want a romance kind of move. Tangentially, I understand there’s a potential problem with having the first Asian male Marvel Movie Superhero also be the first one without a romance – so give him a new love interest, and let’s play with the whole “introducing the love of my life to my best friend” scenario. I’d love to have Katy be totally non-threatened by Shang-Chi finding someone.
Huh, I 100% didn’t get any romantic undertones between the two of them. There was an absolute lack of physical or emotional awkwardness, that to me read more like siblings. Which is all to say, this is one of those cases where people really can read it either way.Interesting. I read their chemistry as “one karaoke night away” from a hook-up that they end up spiraling about, but it’s like, that wouldn’t happen until Shang-Chi opened up about who he really was. Maybe I’m wrong. But I kind of hope I’m not, y’know?
I was on the fence, talked about it with my teen/young adult daughters who saw it with me and they think it’s a friends thing. I mentioned how she had her head on his shoulder at the funeral and how they linked arms to follow Wong but they were still not convinced. I’d kind of like to see more movies with platonic male/female pairs.
I’ve got a female friend that I love and we’ve done all those things (even the head on the shoulder at a funeral) despite being in a platonic relationship.Don’t get me wrong, we’ve also made out after a NYE countdown but we basically agreed that if we couldn’t find anyone else we’d fall back on each other. She’s getting married next year and I’m beyond happy for her.
Nothing says smouldering romantic chemistry like “the director doesn’t even want to comment about it”.
I’m glad the film is successful.Regarding “normal” Banner, I’m just glad that he found a way to get back to normal size. I also remember the Russo Bros’ speculation that the Hulk’s right arm is “dead” because the use of the Infinity Gems to unsnap everyone still did nearly incalculable damage to the extremity, ‘god-tier status’ notwithstanding. I suspect that gamma energy has allowed him to heal, even though it might take “years” for the arm to go back to normal. I’m fine with that.I hope the next film gets to see more international adventures, same as this one. At least two Asian locales, one American locale. America-wise, maybe Oakland, Seattle, New York City, something. He’d kind of have to hang around Queens to meet Spider-Man, which I guess will eventually happen somewhere.As far as China, maybe somewhere coastal: https://www.intochinatravel.com/top-10-china-beach-cities/So what does he do for a living now? If he still has access to his father’s bank accounts, he shouldn’t hurt for money. The Ta Lo village probably has literal gold-fish he can trade in for cash.