Simu Liu doesn’t appreciate Disney boss Bob Chapek calling Shang-Chi an “interesting experiment”
Shang-Chi is being released in theaters, but it will move to Disney Plus after only 45 days
Film News Disney
On a recent earnings call with investors, Disney boss Bob Chapek said that the company’s release strategy for Marvel movie Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings will be an “interesting experiment,” since rather than going just to theaters, just to Disney+, or the combination Disney+ “premiere access” thing where it debuts in both places at the same time (like with Black Widow), the company is going to keep it exclusive to theaters for just 45 days before moving it over to Disney+—which is a quick turnaround, compared to the pre-pandemic days. Chapek’s reasoning was basically that this is just another way to test how consumers want to consume movies, since people who want to see the movie ASAP must pay to do so in a theater, but people who don’t want to, can wait a slightly shorter amount of time and see it on streaming. That will presumably supply Disney with a lot of helpful data that will inform how it chooses to release content in the future.
The thing is, Shang-Chi is a movie made by humans, and humans tend to have emotions and they tend to care about the things they put their hearts into, so they don’t necessarily appreciate the fact that something they worked hard on is just an “interesting experiment” for the studio—not to mention the fact that it’s Marvel Studios’ first movie led by Asian actors, which makes any sort of “eh, we’re just trying this out” statement all that much more gross. Shang-Chi star Simu Liu is vocally objecting to that statement from Chapek on social media (via Variety), saying, “We are not an experiment. We are the underdog; the underestimated. We are the ceiling-breakers. We are the celebration of culture and joy that will persevere after an embattled year. We are the surprise.”
Liu also added that he’s “fired the fuck up” to “make history” when Shang-Chi comes out on September 3. Though not as dramatic as Scarlett Johansson’s decision to sue Disney over Black Widow profits, this is yet another example of a Marvel Studios star calling out the company. If nothing else, that seems like an encouraging sign that people aren’t just going to let Disney march over the entire human race in its quest for world domination.
222 Comments
The headline makes it seem like the executive called the movie itself an experiment, like it may have some sort of racist undertones or something. Instead, it’s about the release schedule, which is quite different.
So…the release strategy is the experiment? Makes sense, and that’s pretty obvious from the statement itself. Grow the fuck up, everybody.
Dammit! I just gave up and surrendered!
Dammit! I just gave up and surrendered!
You could give up on giving up, that way you’re back to where you started.
Maybe he’s a fan of Galaxy Quest.
No bruce lee was the underdog not him
I need to know where Ray Fisher stands on this before I can fully calibrate my opinion.
He was talking about the fucking logistics of the release, being an experiment. Nothing the fuck at all about the movie being the first Asian MCU movie or whatever the fuck Liu started into. Holy shit.
I agree with the intent of what was said, but it is going to be interesting to see how it plays out – It will be easy for people to claim it’s the character/actors/culture that is unable to sell the movie as opposed to the real world fact of the pandemic.This was pretty clear when Black Widow dropped so steeply in week 2 and people tried to act like anything besides Covid was the problem.
How could talking about releasing a film in various media over a defined time even close to disparaging the film because it stars Asians ? Right ! Not connected, fake outrage. Almost makes me want to sit back and wait for it on Disney+
China has a bigger box office than America. I highly doubt they are worried about the “culture” not selling well in that context.
I am offended, therefore I exist
Hear me roar.
Agreed. Context is a thing…
Seriously, this was the most public case of a decent-seeming stranger deciding to go whole hog on a topic without reading the fucking article.
Hey, Simu Liu?
Next time, just read the fucking article.
P.S. Sam? How is anyone supposed to trust you for anything if you can’t represent any values yourself? You’re representing a *policy* here, not an intention of fairness for all, always.
Doesn’t matter what the subject was, because the implication is that it is no big deal if it doesn’t work out, which implies that the movie itself is inconsequential in management’s eyes.
“He was talking about the fucking logistics of the release, being an experiment.”We know. It’s in the article and everything.
No, the article says how gross it is to make that comment about a movie with Asian actors. The article is racist, not what the Disney exec was saying.
Wait. You’re supposed to read those ?
While he was most likely stating that exactly, you have to pretend you’re a person of color and you hear a white dude using a loaded phrase (often rolled out when in opposition of equality measures like integration, affirmative action, etc.) you can see a lack of tact. Even more if the marketing efforts for the film were less than other MCU entries, it starts to paint a picture that the company doesn’t see as much value in the film compared to comparable ones.Basically, Bob chose his words poorly and someone of enough notoriety called him out.
Eh…I call bullshit on this personally.I’m an Asian-American and psyched to see this movie. I also have lived through the pandemic, as all have, and understand why there is no comparison to make in how this movie is being marketed / released / etc to movies pre-Covid. If Bob had said the movie was an interesting experiment because of its cast, I’d get the outrage. He didn’t. And someone being outraged because they aren’t bothering to understand context or don’t care about it isn’t right. It just isn’t. It’s not right to take someone’s words out of context and emotionally spark anger towards them. If you hate it when Trump and his minions do that shit, you should hate it when people who have sentiments you can sympathize with do it too.
I’m NOT Asian-American, and also psyched to see this. I also kind of see where the outrage (or displeasure) comes from, though it does feel manufactured/overblown.Chapek should have been more careful with his choice of words, or maybe should have kept his mouth shut. Yes, it’s a different release model, so obviously it’s experimental. We get it. Now hush and go count your money.
Or as an Asian person myself I could actually read what words mean.
Your post implies that not only should people not say racially insensitive things – which is fine, obviously – but that they also must not say things that might potentially be interpreted as racially insensitive when you strip away all surrounding context.
The level of self-censorship and meticulous word-choosing that adhering to such a standard would require is enormous, and I think most people would agree it places an unreasonable demand on people, when speaking, to guard against their comments being cherry-picked.
Maybe the high up executive of one of the biggest entertainment conglomerates in the world *should* think about his words more carefully. Reading down a pit, sounds like this dude is kind of an asshat from all of his different roles at disney, so even better?
I don’t care about the individual and I’ve got no idea about his behavior – although sure, any high-level exec at a corporation like Disney is bound to not be the greatest person.
What I care about is the standard that’s being implemented here. And that standard is unreasonable for anyone – even a high-level exec – to adhere to.For example: below this, you called Black Widow ‘the One Starring the Dead Woman.’ If I were holding you to the same standard you’re holding Chapek, I could point out how that description is dismissive and reduces a beloved character to her gender identity and ignores the fact that she’s already appeared in countless Marvel movies etc etc… but I don’t, because I understand the context in which you were saying it.
“What I care about is the standard that’s being implemented here.”I don’t think that word means what you think it means. No one’s taking notes so this can standard procedure going forward regardless of what actual individuals want out of this.
I think that word means exactly what I think it means. I don’t think you understand the scope of the term. torchbearer’s post, while well intentioned, states that Chapek was guilty of a ‘lack of tact’ and ‘chose his words poorly.’ Those two statements imply a prescription, or a standard, wherein in order to be tactful and choose one’s words well one must ensure that no-one can ever view them as racially insensitive even if they’re taken completely out of context. That’s the standard that I’m arguing against.Unless you view all viewpoints on the subject as being completely arbitrary and liable to shift from one case to the next – in which case, why even bother arguing?
“hose two statements imply a prescription, or a standard”I mean, you’re saying one internet blogger is able to impose this supposed standard. That’s just not how it works.
I didn’t say that anywhere. A standard doesn’t have to be held by everyone in society, it can be held by an individual or a group of individuals. And it can be implemented in the form of a post, comment, or anything that seeks to enforce that standard.
“A standard doesn’t have to be held by everyone in society, it can be held by an individual or a group of individuals.”Yeah, but then we stop calling it “a standard”.
No… we don’t.
So what’s the percentage then?
Have a good one, dude.
That’s sweet and all, but we both know you don’t mean it.
At the risk of putting words into people’s mouths – and apologies to @torchbearer2 if I’m reading you wrong – I don’t think they’re asking for any standard to be set; they’re just explaining what they think happened in this instance, i.e., Chapek chose his words poorly, Liu reacted to it with honest emotion. It’s not a call to self-censorship, but it is a reminder that certain words have weight, especially when you’re talking about someone’s profession. Whatever the context, hearing that someone is “experimenting” with a work that you’ve put a lot into can come across as dismissive.
I get where you’re coming from, but I think that torchbearer2’s wording still implies a standard being set, even if it’s not a consciously-set or enforced one. When I say ‘standard’ I’m just talking about distinguishing between what is right and wrong (to say in such a situation), not anything higher-level than that. Their post implies wrongdoing on the part of Chapek (if only a minor one), which is what I’m objecting to here. Maybe I’ve misunderstood what they’re going for with that post though, IDK.
If nothing else, I think all this back and forth proves one thing very well: even with the best of intentions, it’s easy for one’s argument to be misinterpreted because our choice of words can only be so precise.
Agreed!
“a white dude using a loaded phrase”
Loaded phrase? What’s the loaded phrase? He very specifically talks about the release of the movie being an experiment and it is 100% clear to anyone who isn’t an asshole that this is exactly and ONLY what he meant.
There was nothing wrong with the words he chose. If you look at them in context and have a reading comprehension above 3rd grade it’s very very obvious what he is saying and it’s nothing remotely offensive/demeaning/controversial. It’s not even about this movie specifically this movie just happens to be the one coming out when Covid is resurfacing. If it was another movie he would have said the same.Im all for crucifying people for saying dumb shit but this ain’t it.
who was that?
I’m a person of color and took 0 offense on reading the statement. I knew what it meant off the rip, I’m more offended that you assume people of color lack reading comprehension.The Actor knew what the suit meant by the statement, he just was trying to get some outrage points on Twitter. I was hyped about this movie, I grew up watching stuff like shogun assassin. Now though I am not going to watch it. Sick of all the social justice actors.
It could be part of the marketing strategy. If there’s a marketing angle to a cape shit movie in having an asian american cast, then it’s aided by white executives being dismissive of it.that or Liu’s just a dumb himbo. more power to him if that’s the case, let thots be thots.
Here’s what I’m wondering about Simu Liu:Was he drunk when he went off on his rant, was he somehow so stupid that he didn’t realize that the boss was talking about trying the different release strategy as a way to maximize revenue, or did he think there was some advantage to pretending to think the experiment was letting Asian men be in superhero roles, even though he knew what was actually being talked about?I have trouble believing that he actually misunderstood the comment. I mean who goes off on the studio head without taking 5 seconds to think about what he actually said?
Right? This is starting to make me think his gripes about Kim’s Convenience were maybe full of it. And I’m Asian.
They still felt that The One With The Asians was disposable enough to use in their experiment, rather than (and yes, I know scheduling limits their choice of lab-rats to a certain extent) a Spider-Man or a Thor or such.
“They still felt that The One With The Asians was disposable enough to use in their experiment, rather than (and yes, I know scheduling limits their choice of lab-rats to a certain extent) a Spider-Man or a Thor or such.”
They’re experimenting with the movies they have, dickhead. They’ve ALREADY experimented with several Ones Without The Asians, or have you not been paying attention FOR THE LAST YEAR?
And the One Starring The Dead Woman. Which they’re being sued over. We don’t need to relitigate the details and yeah, I don’t necessarily think pushing people into the theatre right now is the best choice. Frankly, they should just do the same day-and-date premier access charge. I almost guarantee they don’t have confidence that it will pull the same numbers (and while I am interesting in Shang-Chi, given a variety of factors, I think it’s unfortunately going to bomb by MCU standards) as Widow or Cruella. So they bet on FOMO, shunt it to streaming fast, shrug and say well, we tried. Duh doi.
Like Black Widow wasn’t an experiment? GTFO of here. We live in a different world now, many people don’t want to go to theaters anymore. I believe this experiment will confirm that. This movie will do very well. Not everything is about race.
Meh, you’re not even attempting to comprehend why the comment is at the least tone-deaf. No, we get it. It’s not strictly that the first Asian-led MCU movie is an experiment unto itself, but it isn’t necessarily a good look or great to use the first Asian-led MCU flick as an experiment. It really isn’t. You turn this into a “whatever the fuck, holy shit.” That’s way more on you than Liu, mate.
You’re the one that’s tone deaf. Or you’re just looking to feel offended for others.
Liu only “started into” defending his movie, on which Chapek was trying to lower expectations in the earnings call with his discussion of “logistics of the release” that included shortening the pay window to half of Black Widow’s, an “experiment” that seems likely to hurt the film’s domestic earnings. He’s perfectly right to do this, by the way, since he personally has a lot riding on Shang Chi’s perceived success or failure, and he shouldn’t accept statements that look like the parent company is waving a white flag.The bigger question is, if this is Disney’s company line on Shang Chi because of Covid, why didn’t they get the film’s stars on board before blabbing it to the world in the shareholder call?
This is a bad faith take. This is his breakout roll in a hollywood blockbuster. Why are you even remotely upset that he would say this?
“Why do [I care]?” you askBecause his comments about the film weren’t just a speech given in a vacuum. He was responding to something specific, but was flat out wrong about the impetus. And now shallow bloggers are inventing a paradigm for the story that doesn’t actually exist. So we’re explaining it. The end.
“shallow bloggers are inventing a paradigm for the story”“So we’re explaining it. The end.”That’s as solid an example of projection as I’ve ever seen on the internet. Well done.
So how much longer until Iger forcibly takes the company back from Chapek?
A lot of us hope for another move like that. On this topic, I see where Chapek is coming from about the release strategy “experiment”. Generally, Chapek is so revenue-driven and severe that it’s feasible that in media he’ll start turning people off Disney “content”. Even more pronounced, in theme parks he’ll make the experience for fans and families so expensive they stop going as often, and Universal parks look better and better. Iger, though imperfect, is far better at balancing the imagination/charm versus money-making tension that’s always been the central engine at Disney.
All the online Disney nerds just think Chapek’s the worst; they’ve hated him since he was running the parks division.
“And – what’s this? BY GAWD, it’s Iger stepping into the ring with a folding chair!”
I really want to see this film because I’ve enjoyed Simu in “ kim’s convenience” and was picking Master of Kung Fu off the spinner rack back in the day…But, even vaxxed, I’m hesitant to return to the theater in this time of Delta here in the south. I hope this film does well but I can’t see it happening the way it should.
Hard same. Movie doesn’t even have to be balls out amazing, I want to see what actors who aren’t burned out yet on being Marvel extensions make of the material. I don’t want to put myself of my small humans in the hospital to do it.
Yeah, I had plans to go back for Candyman. But I’ll probably end up just working with what’s available on demand again the rest of this year.
Good thing the theaters are still mostly empty then.Went to see Pig the other day and there was literally one other person.
Same here! And when I saw The Green Knight on opening day, there were another five or six, all sitting together and several rows away from me. I had my mask on after finishing my small popcorn (pandemic or no, I’ve got to use up those reward points before they expire) and felt reasonably safe.I wouldn’t be surprised though to learn that areas with lower vaccination rates have more crowded theaters.
Difficult to find national numbers, but in California 75% of infections, 93% of hospitalizations, and 99% of deaths are in unvaccinated people. Other states report similar experiences.If you are vaccinated, the main risk is no longer getting seriously ill, but having an asymptomatic infection and passing it on to an unvaccinated person, further stressing the health system.The dramatic reporting of “breakthrough infections” is not adequately conveying this information.
“If you are vaccinated, the main risk is no longer getting seriously ill, but having an asymptomatic infection and passing it on to an unvaccinated person, further stressing the health system.”This was always the main risk, even before the vaccine. Not that a 15% hospitalisation rate was to be sniffed at, but the high proportion of mild/asymptomatic cases was always the most dangerous aspect of the disease, and a lot of people didn’t seem to get this.
This this this. A thousand times this.We are two years into this shit and people STILL don’t understand that the biggest danger is overwhelming the healthcare system. If you do that then people start dying of ALL KINDS of things that have nothing to do with Covid because there is no one/no place to treat them due to the hospitals being full of Covid patients. It’s called triage, Google it you dummies.All these “if you are vaccinated you won’t get sick” and “it has a 98% survival rate” people are so infuriatingly obtuse/dumb.
They’ve been upfront about the vaccine efficacy, I’m not sure why 90-95% efficacy somehow meant if you’re vaccinated you’re safe. For what it’s worth, though, data suggests the vast majority of breakthrough cases are at-home affairs.
CDC stats from 8/9 states that reported hospitalizations of vaccinated people number 7608, and about 25% of those were asymptomatic or unrelated to covid. 1,587 people have been reported to have died from breakthrough covid, though 21% of those have been reported as asymptomatic or unrelated to Covid.
Oh I know, but as my spinner rack buying indicates my age, and a touch of asthma, I’m not interested in any aspect of this disease.(Besides AMC has not opened the bar in my local north AtL site and two of three of their ice machines are broken, all of which work fine at my house.)
Simple solution for the industry. Bring back drive-ins.
Vaxxed doesn’t matter. Delta goes right through it. I live in the midwest, the smart part, and Delta is dusting people who have the two shot Moderna and wear masks when they go out. This should be treated as being more serious than the original virus because it is.
Must be nice(relatively) in the US, you guys have only began worrying about Delta while many of us in other countries are starting to get worried about Lambda…
Well, look on the bright side: there won’t be any more variants after… The Omega Variant
Exactly, because after Omega… There is only deathanti-life.
Look, you can’t just post a screenshot from a video game cutscene from 2013 and expect to get away with it.
Sir, I won’t stand for this Snydercut erasure you have going on!
I think I saw that. Robert Redford, Christopher Lee and an up-and-coming Harrison Ford?
Not sure why “it must be nice” since we know there’s a third one coming.
At least other countries are at least TRYING to fight Covid. Here in the U.S a huge chunk of our populace thinks they’re being oppressed for wearing masks and possibly proving vaccination to gather in large groups. So Delta is having it’s way with us , hate to see if Lambda gets full blown here. We have a few cases.
I wouldn’t say that’s strictly true. The Delta variant represents over 80% of the cases and led to the viral explosion in the largely unvaccinated south. Lambda was first announced around 2-3 weeks ago, and first details admitted the vaccine may not be helpful or as helpful…we’re definitely worried. Amongst people I know, we’ve already been talking about the realities of another shutdown.
The frat-house from ‘Revenge of the Nerds’?
Yes. There are several movies that have come out in theaters that I want to see, but I don’t want to sit in a room with a bunch of people I don’t know to see them, no matter how badly I want to see them.
It is an experiment an even bigger one than GoTG which had a cult fan base from the DnA run. Unfortunately the biggest Asian Marvel character is Amadeus Cho a Hulk dirivative so the only other option was to make the Kung-Fu man or Mystical Magic fella Asian which would’ve been it’s own awkward stereotype or make a movie off a character even comic fans have never heard of. Even Colleen Wing from Iron Fist is drawn as an auburn haired woman who could be mistaken as white. This is a textbook movie experiment
I’m glad Disney’s sort of decided to stop pretending the pandemic’s over. Studios releasing movies only in theaters (or for an extremely inflated price online, well above the cost of a ticket) is extremely frustrating and has prevented me from seeing several movies this summer that I was willing to pay money to see. Also looking forward to Marvel acting all surprised to learn that people are willing to see martial arts movies with Asian people in them, even if they’re not good (and honestly? Shang-Chi doesn’t look great but I’m willing to give it a try)
But they won’t be surprised… they invested hundreds of millions of dollars on this movie under the belief that such a movie will be popular. Though I wouldn’t be shocked at all if this whole story was planted so that people will march to the theaters to “prove this executive wrong” (by giving him lots of money).
It’s almost as if they planned this to trick people into feeling good about giving them money for their product.
Prove what wrong ? He didn’t say or imply that because the film stars Asians that it was going to fail. People need to wake up without finding anything to be offended about. It’s sickening
The movie honestly won’t be all that popular. It’s a character that the vast majority of the universe has never heard of before played by an unknown. The real “experiment” will be how far the Marvel brand travels.I know people said that when GOTG was a hit and that it was “proof Marvel could do no wrong!”But I don’t see this one as being a hit. Even if there was no pandemic, it would have been a moderate success at best.
But, I’ll be happy if I’m proven wrong.
“It’s a character that the vast majority of the universe has never heard of before played by an unknown.”Yeah, we lost that bet with Guardians of the Galaxy. I’m not putting any more money down.
A lot of the Marvel properties in the beginning were their B and C level-stuff. People forget that their big names were Spider-man, Fantastic Four, and the X-Men, and they had to start a movie series without ANY of them. Some of them were big in their heyday but had faded (Cap), some of them were B-level from the start (Iron Man). Ant-Man? The Wasp? When I heard that those were original Avengers and I was supposed to take them seriously I nearly laughed my head off. So I’m always willing to be surprised, but man does Shang-Chi look like Generic Asian Modern Martial Arts Movie Character #1.
Yeah, it’s funny how people keep trotting this “it’s an unknown character” trope out after Marvel built the biggest entertainment franchise in history using exclusively unknown characters.Its easy to forget that the avg person didn’t know a goddamn thing about Iron Man when that first movie came out.
Its easy to forget that the avg person didn’t know a goddamn thing about Iron Man when that first movie came out.But to be completely fair, they did know a little something about Robert Downey Jr., the person playing him. Even if that something was just the massive amount of notoriety he’d picked up in the decade previous rather than the roles he was playing. Conversely Simu Liu, with the best will in the world, ain’t exactly a household name yet.
Downey wasn’t a household name either. He was an indie actor who people sort of remembered as a drug addict. He had zero drawing power for Iron Man. Hell, was arguably the 4th most famous person in the movie behind Bridges, Paltrow and Howard (who had been nominated for a Oscar a couple years prior).People really downplay how insane the early years of the MCU were. By all rights, it should have been a total failure.
Nah, TBH I reckon you’re rewriting history just a little there. While I’ll freely concede that Downey Jr was hardly the superstar he is today at the time, he wasn’t a total obscurity like you’re trying to suggest he was either. People knew who Robert Downey Jr was, even if it was largely for his personal problems (in fact, I remember them getting some hay out of the parallels between his personal life and Tony “Demon in a Bottle” Stark). And, well, just look his list of IMBD credits even prior to Iron Man and I think it’s fair to argue that even at the time Robert Downey Jr still had plenty of name recognition at the time, even if it wasn’t for the right reasons. And even if I concede that point, you’ve kind of furthered my own argument for me; even outside of Downey Jr, they had a pretty solid cast of known names to back him up. Gwynneth Paltrow, Jeff Bridges and Terrance Howard were hardly unknowns either. Iron Man wasn’t a guaranteed success by any means, but it wasn’t a completely unexpectable surprise hit either.
I think it’s you who needs to look at RDJ’s filmography pre Iron Man. It’s by no means impressive.And the point was never that it was a shock Iron man did well. The point was that Marvel has built an entire empire out of “unknown” characters. Predicting Shang Chi will suffer because it’s an unknown character makes no sense. You are moving the goal posts towards something entirely different.
I didn’t say it was impressive; I said it was evidence that people knew who he was (you were saying something about shifting goalposts…?). He’d been in the public eye, controversially or otherwise, for over thirty years even before Iron Man. He was a recognisable name, even if his star was tarnished. Certainly, I’d argue, he was still a far more recognisable name among the public at the time than Simu Liu, who with all due respect to him doesn’t have even a quarter of the credits that Downey Jr had at the time that Iron Man came along. And I’m also not predicting automatic doom and gloom for Shang Chi — yes, Marvel have made success from obscurities before. But I do think there’s an air of complacency about how easy they’ll find it to do this time from some (including yourself). There are some notable differences between launching Iron Man and launching Guardians and launching Shang Chi that make doing so for the latter more difficult. Not impossible, but more difficult.
I’m saying this as a Chinese: Guardians of the Galaxy didn’t have a Chinese-descent lead in a Chinese-as-fuck movie in the middle of a pandemic that, in certain countries, have been derogatorily branded as the “Chinese virus”.
That “Chinese virus” thing shits me so much, and I’m as white as low-fat milk. Out of interest, I looked up the active COVID cases in China the other day, and it was something like 115. In a country with a population as large as theirs, that is phenomenal handling of the virus.
GOTG was amazing and exceeded expectations. So what “bet” did “we” lose ?
“It’s a character that the vast majority of the universe has never heard of before played by an unknown.”Yeah, we lost that bet with Guardians of the Galaxy.This doesn’t seem fully comparable. In 2014 GotG was an unknown story yes, but being portrayed by Parks and Rec sweetheart Andy Dwyer. Also longtime movie stars Zoe Saldana and Bradley Cooper.
…as an animated raccoon. I’m not sure how much of his built-up star power influenced the numbers, as much as people generally trusting Marvel films, finding a complete gem, and seeing it again and again.
I didn’t know any of those actors and didn’t watch because of them. I don’t watch TV shows at all. Most of the people who seen the movie weren’t fans of the actors beforehand. I knew David Baptista.. But him being in the movie kind of made me think it was going to suck.
Hey, you might be right. But with both the MCU and James Cameron, I stopped second-guessing them a long time because it’s a fool’s errand.
Plus, for the vast majority of moviegoing history people have been going to see movies about characters they’ve never heard of before, simply because the trailer looked good / the idea appealed / they just wanted to go to the movies.
The Night Thrasher’s time is now!
Eh I disagree with the sentiment that this wouldn’t have been successful without pandemic. There’s absolutely no basis for that thought – movies like Ant-Man and Dr. Strange were just as weird for the average moviegoer as Shang-Chi was. People keep tuning in because the MCU has a good formula.
But those movies came out post-Avengers and pre-Infinity War, when the Avengers franchise was riding high and everyone kinda knew that even those solo adventures would involve their characters meaningfully participating in the larger franchise arcs.Now there’s none of that. The MCU is, well, if not exactly adrift, at least definitely lacking the momentum it had 5, 6, 7 years ago.
That formula hasn’t changed at all. They’re still going to do team-up movies and crossovers. Hell the trailer for Shang Chi features the Abomination and Wong from Hulk and Dr. Strange.
But at a certain point, all the MCU movies were part of a single narrative – the Thanos/Infinity stones thing.That’s not happening now. People felt an obligation to check out every Marvel movie at a certain point for that reason. That no longer exists, even if there are still cameos and team-ups happening.
Not sure how you can say that isn’t happening now. I mean Phase 1 didn’t reveal Thanos until the end of the Avengers. We already know Kang is a major part of Phase 4 and that Dr. Strange / Spider-Man 3 / The Marvels will be bigger movies that bring in other characters, who knows if there are other secrets to be revealed?
“People felt an obligation to check out every Marvel movie at a certain point for that reason.”Citation needed. Superhero fans and movie enthusiasts certainly put in the effort to watch all of the MCU movies, but there’s tons of anecdotal evidence that most people haven’t and won’t.
Which is why this movie will not do that well. It feels inessential to me, like Fantastic Beasts 2 or something. An after thought long after the “main” storyline has concluded. But we’ll see! People still have an affection for the brand, but I think it’s somewhat reduced now.But I could be totally wrong on that, it’s just my perception based on not much, really.
Hell the trailer for Shang Chi features the Abomination and Wong from Hulk and Dr. Strange. Those aren’t exactly on the same level as “Iron Man’s showing up in the next Captain America”, though (I mean, “the villain from that Edward Norton Hulk movie you probably don’t really remember is in this one!” by itself isn’t exactly a huge selling point). It doesn’t seem that unfair to suggest that in between wiping the slate clean of many of their OG big draws and not having a clear ongoing narrative hook to keep people following along, the MCU isn’t really in the same position to coast on audience loyalty that they were this time five or six years ago. You can get away with the occasional untested risky Guardians of the Galaxy or Ant-Man trial run when you’ve got them surrounded with tried-and-tested practically-guaranteed-to-print-money Captain America / Avengers / Iron Man films and “Hey what’s Thanos up to this film?” credit scenes that you can use to keep people lured in. The calculus is a bit different when you’re relying on the untested risky trial runs to keep people coming in, though.
EVERY Marvel movie is a character the vast majority of the Universe has never heard of before. Comics, in spite of the vast amounts of money made and wasted upon them, still aren’t mainstream outside of a tiny handful.
Guardians of the galaxy would like to have a word with you.. As would Iron man. Shang is pretty well known to comic readers. It’s a martial arts movie with great visuals, it will do well with its targeted audience. People watched Iron Fist, Jessica Jones and Luke Cage on netflix.. None of them are real A-listers.
They said it before GotG when Thor and Captain America were announced, and they said it again after GotG when Ant Man was released. And those films did fine. And if this movie fails what with the pandemic and the studio sending signals of weakness with this “interesting experiment” talk, I’m sure the main lesson people will walk away with is that you can make a risky movie about an obscure or unpopular hero so long as a white guy named Chris* (*Paul Rudd’s an honorary Chris for these purposes) is in the lead. Heck, they already believe that strongly enough that they brought back Wonder Woman’s Chris in the sequel, even though that dude’s character died in the first movie!
I never assume they won’t draw the wrong lesson from these situations. Of course they will.Of course, it’s completely impossible to guess what the fate of this movie would have been during a not-pandemic.
But regardless of the race of the character, I think the Marvel films feel like they’ve entered the “non essential” phase. The big culmination event has happened and now it feels like we’re getting day old leftovers.But I could be wrong!
I’m hoping this movie and the Eternals will aim our sights at the next fireworks factory, the way the stingers on Iron Man and Avengers had us looking forward to Avengers and Infinity War/Endgame, respectively. The big difference between Shang Chi and GotG is that in GotG, we knew it was likely the movie and characters had something to do with Thanos, who we knew was the Next Big Thing from Avengers. Unless they did it in Black Widow, no one’s established a reason that Shang Chi’s important in the MCU going in. It might be the first Marvel movie since Ant Man that will have to stand just on its own merits.
I think the MCU’s success is kind of similar to “the rake joke” from ‘The Simpsons’ at this point. (The rake joke starts off funny, then goes on for so long it stops being funny, and then goes on even longer until it’s funny again.) The MCU started as a risk by asking people to see movies about characters that only comic nerds knew or cared about; then those initial movies did so well that Marvel entered the “can do no wrong” stage of ‘Guardians of the Galaxy’; but now they’ve been going on for so long with so much success that every new film is measured up to a super high standard of polish that it’s hard for them to reach, especially when it’s an origin story that will get compared to all the previous origin stories the MCU has done so well. In essence, they’re back to the risk of getting people to care about characters that they don’t love as much as they do Cap, Iron Man and Thor.
One thing I learned in the previous MCU phases is that I really shouldn’t miss any of the movies (except The Hulk) because I don’t know much about the characters they center. I skipped a lot other than Iron Man and when Infinity War came out, I decided I needed to watch the rest of the movies and I was kicking myself for not doing that earlier.I’m not going to make that mistake this time. I may not get to see them all in the theater, but I’m going to see them all.
Premiere Access is only “vastly inflated” if you are paying to watching the movie alone. If you’re a family gathered around the TV, it’s quite cost effective compared to going to the theatre. Heck, I only have one kid and it’s still cheaper than taking her and her dad to the movies to see something.
Even if you watch it alone it’s still not vastly inflated. Ticket is $17 where I live. Throw in transportation cost (gas/Uber/whatever you use) and food and it’s easily over the $30 streaming cost. At BEST it’s the same price.
Yes. For a vastly inferior experience. Headaches aside, seeing a movie in a theater is orders of magnitude better than seeing it at home.
Maybe that was true 30 years ago. Now though?. I have a 65″ 4k TV, a 7.1 surround sound system and a very comfortable couch. The only thing left is the headaches lolThere is literally nothing better about being in a theater.
Hey, not all of us have kids, or a domestic partner who is interested, or friends who are not afraid of Delta and have work schedules that perfectly align with mine. I’m single and I want to watch a movie. This shouldn’t be impossible.
You should maybe look into matinee prices or maybe signing up for something like Stubbs A-List. There are much cheaper ways to see movies in theaters if you look for them.
Scarlett Johannsen is pissed that her movie was streamed. Simu Liu is pissed his isn’t. WTF?
Tempest in an oolong teapot.
Sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing, so I’m not surprised to see it here.
I saw the headline before the byline. I had a feeling.
So we’re just going to start bitching about everything I guess. Ok… well… at least I won’t be bored.
It’s a business experiment. Not a creative experiment.
Cant he just say “solly” so we can all move on?
The fuck?
Ok, so how exactly do the greys work here? Because I post something completely innocent and it never gets seen, but this racist shit right here manages to make it out. Who the fuck looks at these? Is it automated or something?
No idea. And who is there to send it to? There’s no editorial or help or whatever email or form. I flagged it days ago now. Jfc
Flagged it for hate speech, holy shit that is racist.
The fact that it still says after so long and that is has as many stars as it does speak loudly about the racism problem we’ve long had here in AVC. We’ve had a number PoC members, some were even long-time posters, that said they were leaving because this kind of blatant display of racism is not only tolerated, but celebrated by certain members of the community.
I honestly don’t expect much of the AV Club staff these days, but I would think they could at least take down trash like this. I don’t even have the words.
God you think you’re soooo brave
Seconded.
The first paragraph exhibits an understanding of what Chapek quite obviously meant. The second paragraph is classic Barsanti nonsense. So here’s my question: Who really wrote the first paragraph?
That’s the typical approach of a few of the writers on this site. It’s not the they don’t know better, it’s that they need the clicks from readers outraged by the topic as well as those annoyed by the outrage. And here we are! I’m going to have to remember to check the bylines before reading articles.
JFC. How many days until you ask Barsanti for his real birth certificate?Living rent-free, in your head. You can evict him any time…
There are clearly a lot of folks around here who get their daily serotonin from bitching about Barsanti.
Bebetter if av club evicted him. From his job. Which he is bad at.
Disney aren’t going to march over the entire human race in its quest for world domination. They have built an army of toxic Marvel/Star Wars fans to attack Scarlett and Simu on social media for that.
Relax. Unclench. Live in this world.
It’s bad when the only reason I want to see this film is because I want to see how it fits into the MCU.Who is the fight choreographer for this film? The trailers don’t make the fights look like anything interesting at all.
This is the second Marvel article in a week that’s about taking a perfectly reasonable thing and then removing the context to make it look problematic.
The whole world, especially the Left, though the Right’s not, too far behind, and I’m a progressive, has long thrown context out the window, and is looking for anything to get angry about.
What was the other?
The piece on how Disney promoting a Captain America spin-off cartoon on the established Captain America Twitter account was racist.
Oh yeah, that was dumb.
That piece was legitimately pointless. One of the arguments put forward was that the ‘GotG’ twitter hadn’t changed their avatar to T’Challa. Now that it’s the next episode in the line-up I decided to have a look at the Guardians account, and do you want to take a wild guess at who they’ve changed the avatar to?
Simu down now.
Hey Sam?
Next time you wanna be a woke-ass ally, maybe you should use the *slightest* fuckin’ critical evaluation tools possible to see if maybe this was a dumb mistake by the Shang Chi guy.
Shang Chi guy….hold up: I will know his name when I know his name, just like every other celebrity I didn’t know at first. You can use the fact that I still can’t remember it to make this story about anything at all
So Shang Chi guy hears about this quote about the movie being an “experiment,” and because *he didn’t seem to read the whole fucking article first* he went off on this tirade about the most populous people on the planet are scrappy underdogs and they’re going to make history on September 3rd when the Delta variant is in *full swing.*
This was dumb.
That guy didn’t read the fucking article and I can tell because he clearly didn’t understand what the corporate guy was fuckin’ talking about.
The other corporate guy was talking about the 45-day release window, which is new.
And also, with the Black Widow stuff, maybe they didn’t want to have to re-negotiate anything with the star of their film who has yet to prove himself to the financial people at that studio….
And now he’s telling them that the release that’s even *more* strained than the one that got ScarJo’s ire up is gonna make history?
Yeah, if Chinese people want to go see a movie, sure, maybe?
Personally, I’d have appreciated the Disney+ option, but I guess Disney is too racist to renegotiate for it.
(LOOK SAM, IT’S A WOKE TOPIC YOU COULD HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND FOR YOURSELF)
I’m gonna do my damndest to see this in the theater opening weekend. I was stoked about Black Widow then really disappointed when it turned out to be basically Captain Marvel levels of meh, but this is looking pretty decent and unless I hear really crappy reviews early on I want to give it as big an opening weekend as possible.I have just one worry, in that almost every trailer shows Awkwafina shouting “Who are you?” too many times. As a running gag it just isn’t working for me. Since it’s an origin story, presumably we’re going to be told who he is.
How is it anything other than empty bad faith to get angry over potentially-ambiguous wording when you’ve already clarified exactly what was meant and confirmed that it’s completely innocuous?
On one hand, the statement probably wasn’t racist.
On the other hand, being more careful and specific with your language can remove all doubt.
What’s uncareful about what he said? Why would you think somebody would pull the race card out of a phrase like that?
“[Releasing this in theaters and then 45 days later on D+] is an interesting experiment”It doesn’t get more precisely innocuous than that.
It may be innocuously stated, but you’re deluding yourself if you think that it’s not a public no-confidence vote in the movie two weeks prior to release, which is what Liu was reacting to.
but you’re deluding yourself if you think that it’s not a public no-confidence vote in the movie
I honestly don’t read it that way at all. It reads like a completely dry internal discussion of business logistics.
And if that were Chapek’s precise quote then we probably wouldn’t be discussing it like this.
Putting paraphrasing brackets around words in a quote kind of undermines your claim about how “precisely innocuous” the words are.Per the Variety article, the exact quote is, “On ‘Shang-Chi,’ we think it’s actually going to be an interesting experiment for us, because it’s got only a 45-day window for us”. Now, that is similar to your paraphrased quote, but not exactly the same, and there’s ambiguity in the actual words. Enough ambiguity to get upset by? That’s tough to say, different people get upset by different things. But it’s there.
I fully understand that exec guy was talking about this as an experiment in logistics.I can also see how Liu might be frustrated that they are playing games with the first Asian-led MCU flick.Awful lot of folks in these comments realllllllllll quick to tell Liu to fuck off. Just makin’ a note.
Noted.
If it wasn’t clear with Ray Fisher’s situation, here at AVC many people don’t like it when PoCs speak up.
The article is by Sam “will get outraged for food” b, so there is a skepticism to the way he’s reporting it. But I’m definitely side-eyeing the way commenters here immediately leapt to “Liu is out to lunch and so wrong.” I (white, canadian) feel like I can at least see why Liu is pissed at the loaded phrase and the connotations that come with it. It’s far too easy to just outright dismiss his concerns — like ncbo or whoever were in a dead heat to do in these comments, with disdain.
Simu is definitely justified in what he says, no matter the reality of the situation. He doesn’t even sound pissed, IMO—to me it’s simply a powerful assertion that no matter what the business decision is, the movie still matters in more ways than just the bottom line.It’s definitely telling that so many here are so eager to jump on him, though. A side eye is too nice; it’s not the first time and it certainly won’t be the last.
“Simu is definitely justified in what he says”
Because he’s seen Disney’s books?
“He doesn’t even sound pissed, IMO”
Wow, OK.
Says more about the various commenters that *their* take is that Simu is livid. I am probably giving benefit of the doubt to some folks where I shouldn’t be, honestly. I wouldn’t bring them out of the greys (can’t find them anyway cos kinja is awful) but here are a few “choice” responses:Im sure he wouldn’t want people to die because of his movie. If he can’t understand that , then he can fuck off.How’s it loaded? Because Liu took it wrong and out of context even though it’s cut and dry what Chapek was talking about?Because he specifically addressed it as if the experiment was releasing a major blockbuster Asian led film.
lol shut the fuck up. “Justified, no matter the reality” has to be one of the dumbest fucking sentiments I’ve ever read, dear god.
Lol something about PoCs speaking up always gets the racists riled up. We are the celebration of culture and joy that will persevere after an embattled year. You shut the fuck up, grey-ass motherfucker.
So Simi is “justified” regardless of “the reality of the situation?”That’s a telling way to view controversies like these.
How’s it loaded? Because Liu took it wrong and out of context even though it’s cut and dry what Chapek was talking about?
IMO it’s also largely due to irresponsible reporting in the media. I heard next to nothing about the comment until someone was offended by it and then suddenly there’s outrage everywhere, fueled by, well, articles like this one. The headline of this article is:“Simu Liu doesn’t appreciate Disney boss Bob Chapek calling Shang-Chi an “interesting experiment””Most people consume information via headlines alone these days. Which is dumb, but it’s something that modern day writers and bloggers know for a fact. So reading this headline, it is extremely misleading. It should be something like:“Simu Liu misunderstands Disney Boss Chapek out of context and accidentally starts internet rage war”
Weird. I’m a POC and Ray Fischer can go fuck off.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
“It’s about ethics in HR methodolgy!”
Jesus, the Fisher thing was a shit-show. The number of people who were arguing that since he wasn’t a famous actor then maybe he should shut up – or even, in some cases, that causing trouble was how he intended to lift his profile – was dispiriting to say the least.
They’re fucking racists, no other ways about it. Some people will read this and say it’s unreasonable to label them racist just for that, but when those people use racially-coded language that PoCs have had to put up with for decades, they’re doing it from a place of inherent, long-standing racism that has permeated and they’ve been conditioned into without their knowing. So, yeah, to the bigots out there: You’re racists, even if you believe otherwise.
You’re like everything wrong with the world.
Because he specifically addressed it as if the experiment was releasing a major blockbuster Asian led film.
Im sure he wouldn’t want people to die because of his movie. If he can’t understand that , then he can fuck off.
“Awful lot of folks in these comments realllllllllll quick to tell Liu to fuck off.”
Because he chose to willfully ignore what was said and play the victim? Yeah, I wonder why people don’t like that.
Yeah, the commenters here are reeeeal quick to shut down PoC voices, especially to defend billion dollar corporations. But I’m sure most of them think they’re “allies”.
Yuh-huh. I’m finding the tone of some of these comments, uh, distinctive.
I HAAAATE thatkinja doesn’t even tell me *which* comment you are replying to. 🤦
That’ll teach you to use their commenting platform!(For what it’s worth, I was replying to your initial comment in this thread, specifically the line “Awful lot of folks in these comments realllllllllll quick to tell Liu to fuck off.”)
Boy this Chapek is on a roll isn’t he?
So, what did he do wrong here?
I’m thinking maybe Chapek should just stick to swimming in the Disney money vault, and just let his underlings handle the actual details. I don’t think he understands the subtleties of handling the “talent” (or maybe all people), nor PR in general.
I mean, ya dude, call the assholes out all day, but I’m still not going into a movie theater.
That’s a dumb fucking reaction to a dude that was clearly talking about how media is consumed now. The actor, whoever the fuck nobody knew about until this, needs to settle down and stop playing pretend victim. Anyone with a brain knows the difference between what the Disney guy was talking about and what dipshit was crying about. 2020’s are all about pretending to be a victim or pretending to care. I’m not wasting time with either.
It’s wild to me that anyone would think Disney sees film as anything other than commercial product. Like, yes, it’s commercial product which affords creative people a space to create art, but only ever within the parameters of the commercial exercise.
That’s kinda Disney’s whole thing, and kinda why they’re basically evil?
Can somebody please explain to me where the idea came from, that a comment to SHAREHOLDERS about the MONETIZATION of a COMMERCIAL ASSET from THE LARGEST CORPORATION IN THE GALAXY should be anything other than what was said?
The only time Disney pretend to give a shit about art or the creative process or anything related to the humanities is when it’s commercially on-brand to pretend that. Is Liu just upset that Disney didn’t extend the lie to his film?
As I don’t think Chapek said anything that wrong (tin-eared at most) I end up wondering if Liu and/or Disney have no faith in this film and tensions are boiling over. Either way, it isn’t much reason to want to see it.
Hahaha. I knew that as soon as the article writer got into the whole thing about Simu Liu being an Asian, that it was a Barsanti clickbait article.
This has fuck all to do with race and instead of about how it’s being released. Jesus Christ. Nobody does context anymore.
While it’s definitely an experiment with release structure, it really should be noted that their experiments with how to structure their releases just so happen to be around a big movie with a female lead, and then a big movie with an Asian lead. Almost like these are the ones ‘allowed’ to fail or face problems, rather than ones Disney and Marvel are really banking on succeeding.
Hell, you can arguably see the same sort of thing with the MCU’s Disney+ releases. The white male-led release (Loki) just so happened to be set to come after the ones with a woman and a black man given first billing in the titles—which would be an awfully easy decision to make if they were all being produced simultaneously with no demand for that specific release order, which is also true. Granted, with those they were unquestionable successes, but it’s one of those situations where the outlook makes all too much sense from a certain angle. If they were treating the minority-led movies like canaries in a coal mine, they’d be acting in exactly the same way they are right now… so what proof do we have that they aren’t doing exactly that?
Are we still pretending Loki was the safe one after – SPOILER – it revealed the character to be pansexual and gender-fluid?
In terms of bottom-line signoffs? Absolutely. To the writers, yeah, Loki’s were the ones rolling the bones in a lot of ways, but to the higher-ups (who are probably older and more conservative)? It was the surest bet, it’s the one with the most bankable lead and central role. In their eyes… so what if he’s announced to be genderfluid and bi/pan? There’s not even a same-sex kiss in that show, you could play it in the most homophobic and transphobic country in the world and only need to change, like, four lines. Hell, it even lets Disney do their favorite thing (as long you only ask them in America): claim LGBTIQ+ representation without having to include anyone actually doing anything ‘gay’ that might not play well in places like China or Saudi Arabia.LGBTIQ+ people are a little weird like that in a ‘minority representation’ sense, because in some ways, we’re the ‘safe’ option when it comes to combining inclusivity with international appeal. You can’t ‘edit around’ Sam Wilson being black, or Wanda Maximoff being a woman. But you can often edit around a character being gay—and a company like Disney makes sure that job isn’t even hard.
Yes, i’m sure Disney planned it so that Black Widow and Shang-Chi would come out during a pandemic.
This theory does admittedly hinge on there being a ‘bankable hit’ in the wings, and I don’t know enough about the MCU’s plans (or plans about other Disney films for that matter) to know if that’s true; there’s a Doctor Strange movie coming out at some point, I know that part.This isn’t a conspiracy theory I’m certain about and trying to push. I’m basically just saying ‘they ARE using minority-led movies as guinea pigs for release structures, and that doesn’t look super hot’.
I mean yeah its optics look bad in a vacuum, just like what the dude said when taken out of context— but don’t forget Black Widow was originally supposed to be released much, much earlier and Disney held off as long as possible, hoping that the pandemic wouldn’t be as bad as it was, so it’s not like they didn’t do their due diligence in trying to give it a normal release. It really is just a shitty coincidence.
“it really should be noted that their experiments with how to structure their releases just so happen to be around a big movie with a female lead, and then a big movie with an Asian lead.”
It also “just so happened” with several Pixar movies and with a movie starring The god damn fucking Rock.
There have been a DOZEN movies that have had their releases affected by the pandemic, JUST on Disney’s slate, so to pretend this is “just” happening to movies starring a woman or an Asian is absolute fucking horseshit.
their experiments with how to structure their releases just so happen to be around a big movie with a female lead, and then a big movie with an Asian lead
It really is a coincidence. Before the pandemic even existed, the next MCU properties scheduled to be released were these movies, after the Endgame break. Then a pandemic hit, right in the year that it so happened that a movie led by Black Widow and an Asian movie were slated.
You’re asking for proof of a negative which isn’t possible. You’re being extremely unreasonable.
I hate when intentionally or not, minority actors take a segment of a sentence, and misinterpret it for their own social media benefit. They were clearly talking about the release model being an “experiment” Oye
Your weekly reminder that the only thing standing between Marvel and the Disneycorp fate that befell Star Wars is Kevin Feige.
Guess what? It got us talking about the movie! Press!
The question is, would they have tried this experiment with one of the more known brands vs the first Marvel Asian super hero movie? Hard to say as I think this approach is also a bit of a reaction to the current resurgence of Covid cases. Ultimately I can buy there was no ill intent with the approach and was just a case of bad phrasing. Hopefully the movie turns out good
As many have noted, the Chapek quote seems to be out of context. He’s talking about the business strategy around the release – timing, platforms, etc.
But I can’t find it in myself to blame Liu.
First of all, when when you’ve been forced to factor racism into each and every interaction, you begin to get a chip on your shoulder about it. Without the context of the quote, is it really so crazy to assume Chapek is talking about the “experiment” of a big budget MCU Asian-led predominantly Asian cast movie?
Second – even if we accept Chapek is only talking about release strategy (which I do!) – is that an experiment (risk) Disney would run with an Avengers movie, a Thor movie, etc? The closest we have is Black Widow – how’s that turning out? Johansson is suing Disney and Disney responded by trying to kneecap her reputation and tried to use the pandemic to shame her.
Whatever the context, I don’t think anyone wants to hear a work they’ve been involved with creatively has been “experimented” with.
Please don’t break the ceiling. It’s just been cleaned.
I’m really excited for this movie. I can’t wait to watch it on or around October 18th.
45?!?! Obvious reference to the internment camps of 1942-1945Sick Bastards!!!!
The last time the MCU “experimented” with a film featuring the Mandarin we got the steaming pile that is ‘Iron Man 3′.