Okay, I’ve checked multiple times, and I’m pretty sure that this episode is finally the penultimate episode of season three. It’s been a journey, folks, a long, torturous journey made up of assumptions that I didn’t bother to check. But we’re finally here. Only one left to go after this, and, well, that’s maybe for the best.
Hey, remember Zareh? The raspy voiced creep Jake Weber played back in the second episode—the one who was so mean to Tilly and Saru, and who got sent out into the wilderness to die. Well, he’s back, still raspy as ever, working for Osyraa in her plot to steal Discovery and join forces with the Federation. I like Weber well enough, and while I think I’m all set on scenes of characters either needlessly belittling or excessively praising Tilly, I guess it’s cool that they brought back someone with a history. Zareh seemed a little too distinct to be a one off, and I guess this means we’ll be seeing him die on screen at some point, presumably next episode.
What’s that? You’re curious about Osyraa’s plan to join forces with the Federation? Me too, actually. In one of Discovery’s rare and welcome swerves into actual complexity, “There Is A Tide…” follows the Ephalba-wannabe as she tricks her way into Federation headquarters. After being largely content to paint the character as a one-note villain, “Tide” tries to bring in a bit of nuance; she’s still an ends justify the means kind of person, but at least the actual ends she’s striving towards are more compelling than “sneering and murdering.” She’s not completely honest in her conversation with Vance, but there’s enough truth in what she says (their conversation is monitored by a holographic lie detector) to make for a crisis that is as philosophically knotty as it is exciting.
Another point in the episode’s favor: it keeps its focus on Discovery and the events inside Federation HQ. Given how the show has handled previous multipart storylines, I half-expected us to pause every ten minutes to go see how Saru, Culber, and Adira were getting along. That we don’t is both a benefit to the episode’s pace and to the tension about just what’s happening back on the Planet of Slow Radiation Death. It’s just a smart structural choice, and while I don’t want to overpraise the show for doing something that TV shows have been doing for decades, it does seem like it’s a trick Discovery doesn’t always remember when it matters. So hey, good on them for getting this one right.
As for the plots we do get, well, for the most part it’s people running around trying to rescue each other and managing to be just effective enough to not actually resolve anything. We have Michael playing Die Hard on Discovery while Osyraa settles into negotiations with Admiral Vance, Tilly and the others come up with a plan to fight back, and Stamets has a discussion about motives with a dry voiced scientist in Engineering. Of all of these, it’s the scenes in Engineering that probably drag the most—there are only a couple before Michael shows up and shoots Stamets off the ship (more on that in a sec), but the actor playing the scientist makes a choice to underplay every line, and it doesn’t work at all. Clearly the character is going on an arc where he realizes that Osyraa isn’t all she pretends to be, but given the dry, flat line-readings, it’s hard to get invested in his inner turmoil. I just wanted him to stop talking.
In regards to that whole “Michael throwing Stamets off the ship,” it’s interesting how the show has re-remembered this season that part of what initially defined Michael was her willingness to make big, risky decisions when she decided she knew the right way forward. It’s what basically got the original Georgiou killed back in the pilot, and it’s been popping up from time to time lately; here, it surfaces when she decides that making sure Osyraa can’t use the spore drive is more important than going back to the Planet of Slow Radiation Death and saving Saru and the others. Stamets objects, they fight, and she knocks him out before sealing him in a forcefield and using an exploding phaser to kick him out into space.
This almost works? Michael is more interesting when she makes big choices, and Stamets’ absolute fury at her betrayal here is more intense than conflicts on the show between two main characters usually get. It’s just, it feels like the writers were in such a hurry to get to this moment that they didn’t quite do the necessary work to justify it. The scene needs for both Michael and Stamets to have a point, but Michael acts like she’s operating on some countdown clock that none of the rest of us are privy to. She doesn’t actually know what Osyraa’s plans are, and while it’s true that it would be bad for the Chain to have full control of the Drive, there’s not enough sense of immediate pressure to make her actions here quite ring true.
On the other hand, Stamets’ completely inability to separate his professional and personal lives is about as good a justification for banning relationships among the crew as one could imagine. Neither of them are acting exactly rationally, and while that’s fine for character drama, something about the way it’s presented here, the sudden shift from “thank you for rescuing me” to “BURN IN HELL,” is too sudden. Maybe if the show had a clearer perspective on Michael’s rogue behavior, maybe if the danger was more immediate, it might’ve clicked. As is, as a scene, it’s effective, but in the context of the episode as a whole, it feels more than a little forced.
It’s a strange thing, really. “Tide” is just as messy in its way as last week’s episode, but because the overall focus is narrower, it’s a stronger entry. The action scenes are all fun to watch (it’s pretty funny how Michael manages to get herself stabbed in the leg like, a minute after she runs off to save the day), and while Tilly’s shift from “adorkable nerd” to “battle-hardened commander” is a bit much, well, it’s nice to see the crew working as a team. Still, it’s hard to accurately assess all of this without seeing how it ends. “Tide” doesn’t resolve a cliffhanger so much as it extends it, and the final scene, with Tilly and the others meeting up with a bunch of cute robots who are all controlled by the Sphere data is… well, I laughed very loudly, and I don’t think it was supposed to be funny.
Stray observations
- Seriously, the Sphere data nonsense may be what finally breaks me. I don’t need Trek to be gritty or even particularly realistic, but tipping over into full-on kid movie “science is magic!” nonsense is a step too damn far.
- I assumed we’d see some self-doubt from Tilly this week, and we do—it’s not a bad little moment—but the speed with which it’s tossed aside is a little discouraging. I don’t know, I don’t think any of this is her fault, but losing a starship to the bad guys on your first time at the helm should at least allow for some basic personal reflection. (God forbid anyone on Discovery ever feel bad about something for more than thirty seconds, I guess.)
- Michael tells Booker she loves him. This isn’t specifically a Discovery issue, but it’s high time TV shows stopped pretending this was a big deal out of certain specific situations. They’ve been a couple for a little while, they’re obviously close, her saying it now changes nothing but they act like it does.
- I like how smart Vance is throughout this. And I like the ultimatum he gives Osyraa—that he’ll go along with her proposal to team up the Federation and the Emerald Chain, but only if she’ll willingly stand trial for her crimes. It’s a way to both acknowledge the potential of the arrangement but also stick to the Federation’s ideals.
- Oh, Ryn gets shot. He’s heroic, and then he gives a speech about how love triumphs over hate, and then Osyraa shoots him.
- “We came to the future for you!” Stamets’s absolute despair and rage here feels like something the show should’ve addressed before now. It’s surprisingly powerful having someone say it flat out.
130 Comments
So last week you said:“Oh god, I just realized we’re going to get a “Tilly loses all faith in herself because the ship got stolen” arc next week, aren’t we.” And week, as you note, it’s briefly addressed – but somehow too briefly? The speed with which it’s tossed aside is a little discouraging… losing a starship to the bad guys on your first time at the helm should at least allow for some basic personal reflection So which is it? Are you dreading the show addressing Tilly’s confidence, or would you rather they dedicated even more time to addressing it?It genuinely seems like Discovery just can’t please you. Once Season 4 comes around just let someone else have a go at these reviews. The relentless nitpicking is really starting to get tiring.
Seconded. This season has been its best.
This header photo looks like Avatar meets Miami Vice.
Lmao wow you really dunked on him
Zach has been like this since his season 2 recaps and it’s annoying. I come here to see what grade he’s given the episode, and then go to io9 read their recap
It feels like the grade is how good the show is technically, while the review is about how closely it matches Zack’s particular vision of Star Trek in his head. I like Zack’s reviews, and his DS9 reviews in particular are required reading for fans of the show, but his Discovery reviews feel like attempts to explain exactly why it’s shitty and not Star Trek rather than treating it objectively. TNG was 30 years ago guys, we can never go back.
Respectfully, The Mandalorian demonstrated that it is possible to course-correct. However, nothing recent suggests that we are going to get a Favreau-Filoni team for Star Trek and the current style just rubs some people wrong (myself included).
Ya, there definitely aren’t two other shows currently being produced that are closer to the spirit of the TNG era. I guess it’s just impossible to make a show like that.
How do you know that it’s any ‘better’ if it’s in production? I remember when everyone was praying for Picard to debut because of how much better it would be than Discovery.
I meant “being produced” in the more general way, meaning they are current shows. I was referring to Lower Decks and The Orville. Picard is also shit.
Because Picard and Below Decks Seasons 1 exist?
Not to mention, a really big portion of TNG’s run was utter garbage sprinkled in with some absolutely brilliant TV.
TNG was 30 years ago, we can never go back…except in cartoon form, where Lower Decks has been making direct TNG jokes and doing TNG style plots and they’re great!
And The Orville in live action form. The humour on either isn’t the best aspect, but at least they both proved that it’s not impossible to make a new Star Trek show that feels like Star Trek. They also proved that new Star Trek shows don’t have to be terribly written garbage. I could handle a new Trek show that was terribly written garbage, as long as it felt like the terribly written garbage that has appeared in previous Trek, and not this sub-fan fiction junk. At least fan fiction understands the appeal of the franchise.
Those Old Scientists!
“TNG was 30 years ago guys, we can never go back.”This comment reminds me that when TNG, DS9, Voyager, et. al started airing they all got the “not real Star Trek” tag. In the DS9 documentary “What We Left Behind” (from 2019), some of the actors read fan comments on DS9 when it came out. It’s fascinating how all the trek shows get a similar reaction when they first air.
The Orville would like a word with you
Zack needs to come back sometimes and interact with the Kinja comments. That’s not a bad way to become a better writer anyway. Feedback, even random feedback from reliable comment-posters, is good.
It’s a blog. Everything written is for entertainment purposes not actual opinion. They probably don’t even watch the show.
The episode quality has been pretty uneven this season, but I liked this one. A B+ is a fair grade, but the review reads quite a bit more negative than that.
I’d argue that Michael and Stamets’s sides of the conflict both make sense, as well as the urgency they both feel. From Stamets’s perspective, his family is about to die. From Michael’s perspective, an unapologetic villain stole the ship, took the crew hostage, and has been threatening and attempting to kill her all while trying to get access to the spore drive. She doesn’t even know about the treaty negotiations. Meanwhile, there is functionally zero chance Stamets’ family can be rescued. With Book’s ship crashed, they don’t have a way back to the planet, so jumping over there just buys the invaders time to track down Stamets, whose genes potentially give them control of the galaxy.
In fact, every second they wait potentially risks that outcome. Getting him off the ship immediately is the only move. It’s dramatic, creates more real interpersonal tension than almost any conflict on the show, and no one’s acting with incomprehensible idiocy. I disagree pretty strongly that it’s forced.
(But I do agree that the sphere data is becoming a deus ex machina that isn’t doing the show any favors at this point.)
I don’t even remember the little robots being introduced, aside from the opening and some tracking shots
What’s tiring is Discovery fans crying every time someone criticizes the show. It’s not actually the greatest show in the franchise and there is a lot to nitpick in every single awfully written, terribly acted episode. Get over yourselves.
The thing about A.V. Club seems to be that it always wants people that hate the show the MOST to review it.Another bad review Zach!
Thank you! Thank you so much for pointing out in clear, “Just the facts, ma’am” truth that this reviewer will never be pleased with DISCOVERY. Not even if he writes, produces and directs every episode. Which I doubt he has the skill set to do.
Seems like pretty fair criticism. As a whole, having this character get randomly told by various characters that she’s great or awful in order to make some emotional moment, it’s not interesting or good writing, it’s cheesy. We’ve already seen it, it doesn’t give us anything new about the character. But IF they are going to do it anyway, they ought to at least stay true to the character. If they are going to heavy-handedly attack her credentials in the previous episode, you would then expect her to deal with it like a normal person would. Do I want to see it? No. But the writers kind of locked it in, and if the character doesn’t have any time to reflect, they just swing from one extreme to another, you’d point that out as a critic. Basically, if you’re going to make the cheesy, annoying choice, do it with some fidelity.
They’ve done a really, really bad job on Osyraa to date in the show. The longer the conversation with Vance went on I kept thinking I must have missed out on the bit where she’s not just a two-bit space pirate but is basically the front-person for a whole other civilization, one to rival that of the Federation.
Making her second in command be an actual two-bit space pirate was a strange decision. I didn’t think her himbo lieutenant from earlier in the season was a convincing threat either. But if the writers knew that they were bringing the spacecowboy back for the finale they really should have had him show up a few more timesI don’t remember if the planet from the 2nd episode with the living ice was particularly strategically important for some reason? It sure seemed like a backwater, so the guy that she chooses to run disco while she’s gone is just a chatty dude with a gun from a space bar?
They’ve been name dropping Osyrra as a big deal in the Chain since like episode 3, though.
. . . something about the way it’s presented here, the sudden shift from “thank you for rescuing me” to “BURN IN HELL,” is too sudden.Arguably a reason not to include characters who go melodramatic at the drop of a hat. Yes, there are people like that, and it can be a fun and interesting characterization. But space operas have a baseline of melodrama. When the replicator feedstock contacts the air impeller and it’s time for a more-dramatic-than-usual reaction, what’s the actor supposed to do?
Not really sure why its too sudden of a shift. She rescued him “thank you for rescuing me” then he immediately found out that she was going to let his partner that came back from the dead and his new found child die “Burn in Hell”
I for one am team Michael here. Culber and Saru made their choice for the greater good and knew the risks. They also have the meds.
Yeah, for real, all Michael knew was what Book told her — that the last time Osyraa did this exact trick she blew up the planetary governor’s mansion! Of course she’s going to be operating under a ticking clock…
It’s just, it feels like the writers were in such a hurry to get to
this moment that they didn’t quite do the necessary work to justify it.
Discovery in a nutshell.
I’ve made this exact argument for the last two weeks, but for once, I don’t think it’s warranted. The villains are coming for (and as it turns out, literal seconds behind) a wildly outnumbered Michael and Stamets, the latter of whom won’t be talked out of a a rescue mission with no real chance of success and is genetically encoded with worldbreaker tech. Were they supposed to stand around and try to work through their feelings?
Bingo. She got caught seconds behind and also I think only her and booker are aware of how she captured the other planet with the getting inside and exploding the base.. Even if that isnt true, shes bleeding out and doesnt have time to talk him down.
This was another dumb episode. So what was Osyra’s plan? “I want to join forces with the Federation. I know, let’s steal one of their ships. That will totally be better than opening normal channels of negotiation.” And if this was all a ruse, then what was the ruse? Just getting the spore drive? Then why go to the Federation? If it was a ruse then for the episode to work we need to know what her ruse was. And does anyone think for a moment they are going to kill off three of their main characters? So there is no real drama. I can see them killing off the Trill whose name I forget but not all three.
And whomever it was that came up with the cliched storytelling trope of putting characters in jeopardy and then not returning to the characters for an entire episode to keep the audience interested needs to have a stern talking to.
“And does anyone think for a moment they are going to kill off three of their main characters? So there is no real drama. I can see them killing off the Trill whose name I forget but not all three.”That’s pretty much a persistent fault with any show, really. Seems like a nitpick to me.Which is why the pilot episode of The Shield was lauded back in the day.
That quote also shows that jccalhoun just refuses to pay attention. Adira is not a trill. There was a whole episode about it.
Sorry Zach, got lost in the reply chain. That comment should have been directed at jccalhoun.
YEAH THE SHIELD BITCH
“I
want to join forces with the Federation. I know, let’s steal one of
their ships. That will totally be better than opening normal channels of
negotiation.” And
if this was all a ruse, then what was the ruse? Just getting the spore
drive? Then why go to the Federation? If it was a ruse then for the
episode to work we need to know what her ruse was. Osyraa is still a criminal/warlord at heart. She’s not going to try to open negotiations when the only thing she has to negotiate with is ‘peace.’ She takes a hostage so she can use the hostage as a negotiating piece, and one that emotionally compromises the other party, giving her an additional advantage in negotiations.
And if negotiations fail, she still has Discovery and the spore drive and she can leave and try to reverse engineer it and replicate it (‘try’ being the operative word. There’s no guarantee it can be reproduced) and from there make the Federation irrelevant (while losing the sheen of legitimacy she wanted from having the Emerald Chain and Federation unite) or force the Federation back to the negotiating table from a position where she can dictate terms that won’t require any concessions from the Chain (which also potentially hurts the perceived legitimacy of the combined Emerald Chain/Federation amongst non-member worlds that she wants to be able to exploit).Her proposed armistice is the best way to extend the reach and influence of the Chain without them having to fight for it, and given their dilithium running out they’re not going to be able to keep what they already have for much longer.
If Osyraa wants to use Discovery as leverage, why would she take the ship into the heart of Starfleet where they can blow it up and take away her biggest advantage if negotiations fail? That makes no sense.Also, they literally found a dilithium planet last episode. If the Emerald Chain secures it then they’re going to have way more dilithium than the Federation. With the Discovery and the dilithium, the Emerald Chain has all the advantages. Unless of course, the writers forgot about that dilithium planet.
And does anyone think for a moment they are going to kill off three of their main characters?But then they could give their screen time to Burnham and Tilly!
Omg- I’m actuallyat a current review for the first time in Disco’s and my history- yes! *cue fist drawn into ribcage*Oh uh- nothing else to say yet- I’ll be back later. I still haven’t watched today’s episode. Just wanted to get some feelers for what it was like. Sooo, is the commandeering of DSC supposed to be a way to force The Federation to join forces with Ossyyra?? You know, like if you don’t give me what I want I’ll blow up your most important possession???Huh. Well that’s one way I guess. I guess that’s how a crime boss might approach things. Why do something the humanist and honorable way when theft and force are so much easier? Ok…. I’m in… For now I think… But I agree did she really think that was going to work with the noble Federation? Well who knows, it is 930 years in the future and after the Burn, so they might have to negotiate with terrorists after all.
Holy curp- I’m outta the grays. 👏 Whoohoo! I didn’t expect it so soon. Those blood sacrifices really paid off. I knew I was on the right path with those.
But I agree did she really think that was going to work with the noble Federation? Well who knows, it is 930 years in the future and after the Burn, so they might have to negotiate with terrorists after all.The Federation negotiated with the Klingon Empire, their sworn and hated enemies, when the latter had an incident that would’ve brought about the end of their civilization. And in that case, the Federation was at full strength, so there wasn’t as much in it for them than there is in this case; they basically did it to be magnanimous and to avoid a last-ditch all-out war with a Klingon Empire that had nothing to lose and would’ve been more than happy to go out fighting.I know the parallel isn’t perfect, but we’ve seen that not everybody associated with the Chain is a mustache-twirling villain; there seem to be people, like the scientist, who don’t know about a lot of the evils their employer is engaged in. Maybe the thought is that if they can stunt some of what the evil overlords are doing and leverage the non-evil people who don’t necessarily know that they’re serving an evil organization, what eventually comes out of the union will look a lot more like the Federation than the Chain. They may be banking on the rank-and-file just being normal-ish people doing their jobs, who, as the scientist alluded to, would love to operate in a Federation-style setup.
Yep, I fully agree. And now having seen the episode, that’s how they approached it, in the well-shotand actually well-paced negotiations btwn Ossyraa and Vance.
The actor playing the scientist has ALS, which might have contributed to his low-key delivery. Anyway I really enjoyed this episode. It wasn’t amazing or anything, but it’s probably my favorite of the season.
I was going to say the same thing. His delivery seemed to be because he is already having trouble breathing, and you could see a tremor in his right hand. He’s also been in this show eight times before as various characters, so I thought singling out Kenneth Mitchell seemed a bit iffy.
I liked this episode a lot, really, except for the dumb cutesy ending. Felt too much like Discovery’s attempt to create a ‘baby Yoda(s)’.I also really liked how Burnham didn’t ‘relent at the last moment’ and keep Stammets on board—-its always about the greater whole.Something else that kind of bothered me about this episode was the blatant socialism vs capitalism scene with Osyraa and Vance—-I’m really not sure what they were trying to go with on the social commentary there. It seemed a rather juvenile “Capitalism BAD!” association with Osyraa’s empire. As in, nothing capitalist can’t have slavery and severe oppression.Thankfully, they didn’t go very far with this hapless attempt at drawing parallels with our current times.Probably the best episode of the season. A-minus.
I wonder what is up with the Ferengi at this time
They’ve been eradicated due to intergalactic communism, lol.
In fairness, Trek _is_ meant to be about a post-scarcity society where money has no meaning any more. In that world, rationing based on cash would seem, let’s not put too fine a point on it, evil.
Earlier this season there were a bunch of weird winks about how the new-federation was not what it seemed. And I’m okay that they haven’t turned out to be secretly evil, but it’s a little disappointing/bland that they are apparently so pure.Because the burn means that this really is no longer a post-scarcity world. And they’ve had a century to come to terms with that, and to figure out a way forward. But it seems like they mostly just hang out in their clubhouse?
I feel like Osyrra was sortof getting at that in this episode (although she’s also evil, so who knows)
Deep Space Whatever that was trading with the chain sounds like a pretty interesting place. I like the Federation as a basically noble organization that actually takes its principles seriously, if only as wish fulfillment, but I do enjoy the occasional episode where they have to deal with some uncomfortable pragmatic realities (it’s why In the Pale Moonlight is such a classic).
I’m hoping for at least a discussion about the relative merits of insisting on a public trial for this one specific criminal and the damage that a lack of one would do to the Federation’s reputation and moral authority vs. potentially dooming trillions to continued slavery and war. I’m worried they’re heading toward a lame cop out where Oryssa just agrees to go to space jail or the scientist turns her over, neatly dodging the thorny ethical questions that have produced some of the best Trek episodes.
My take was that Osyraa was sortof drawing parallels between the Federation and Earth.Earth is explicitly isolationist and hiding at home. Meanwhile the Federation makes big claims about upholding the old ideals, but it doesn’t actually have any resources, so it is isolationist in its own way by closing in on itself (although 80+ worlds still sounds pretty big). And so the argument is that if that if the Federation actually engaged with the realities of the post-burn galaxy then it would have a bigger reach. But instead what its done is abandon deepspace-whatever and a bunch of its other former citizens to evil capitalism.I think that’s interesting, but it’s unfortunate that it’s coming from Osyraa, since that makes it feel a bit too good-people-on-both-sides-y.But either way, I expect the finale will be a lot more explodey than debatey.
“I think that’s interesting, but it’s unfortunate that it’s coming from Osyraa, since that makes it feel a bit too good-people-on-both-sides-y.”
I don’t really get that vibe, especially since “turn yourself in and face justice for all those murders you did or no deal” is Vance’s explicit position, thus limiting the audience’s ability to ignore the war crimes. It’s more interesting if the villain has some kind of perspective or point other than a love of evil, but it doesn’t automatically excuse everything else.
Real world ethics often boil down to “we need to compromise to get anything done, but how much compromise is acceptable before we become the bad guy?” or “how much bad can we live with in pursuit of greater good? And is there a point at which doing nothing to preserve our personal sense of righteousness is worse?” It’s not an easy question! That’s good. That’s where intelligent drama lives.
“But either way, I expect the finale will be a lot more explodey than debatey.”
I fear you’re right, which is a shame because this is Star Trek. There’s room for both!
This was- I dont know. Practically, her armisyice would have ended the war, ended slavery, ended their interference with pre-warp civs- at the cost of giving her personally enormous power.
I would be very curious to have had Picard or Spock at that negotiating table.
I thought it was 32 worlds- “worlds” in the the federation I believe also didnt refer just to literal inhabited plantes but member races, so one “world” could comnsist of a home plant and multiple colonies. But the federation is actually slighlty larger then it was in disco and TOS, in TOS they said 30 member worlds- the problem is though wordls are much more spread out and the “strong” worlds like earth and vulcan mostly left, the ones who stayed were the weaker worlds- keep in mind this is from a point where the Federation had become The Galactic Union and spanned the milky way, so going from that to 32 worlds strewn across the galaxy is a major, major decline.
I’ll admit that I didn’t go back to verify the number.You’re right about the TOS stuff though. Back to the beginning of this season, when Burnham or the writers were talking about the glory of the federation they were never talking about the scrappy, post-klingon-war federation that Burnham actually knew. They were relying on the audience’s knowledge of the tng-era megapower.And that’s too bad, because I really would have liked something like:
“I’ve travelled in time from the revolutionary war to this lawless future, and I dedicate myself to restoring the United States and reuniting the 13 colonies!”
“Well actually, we’ve currently got 18 members.”
“18? That’s amazing!”
“Yeah, but we used to have 50. But all the good ones left, and now it’s just Rhode Island and a bunch you’ve never heard of.”
We kind of got that with Saru and Nhan.But we never got a good, emotional scene of these 23rd century humans seeing just how powerful and important and influential their little federation grew up to be.
Good point. And really, it would have been braver and more interesting had they explored that properly, and then taken Osyrra up on her offer.
Next week, after the plot has been resolved, the Discovery goes back to the Guardian Forever to conveniently send them back to their original time. But how about they send them to the ST:Picard era and get Starfleet back onto the Spore Drive, preventing the future Burn. After all, in TNG S7 there was the issue of warp drive hurting the space environment. Like Stamets once said, the Spore drive is an ecological alternative to warp drive.
They fixed that. Forget where but it was mentioned in a one off, they had made changes to the engines. That effect only happened to regions of space with specific properties.
Good Lord, if the show is so laborious, why even bother to review it? Let one of your colleagues do it.
Didn’t really need to ever see space-Negan again.
Imdb isn’t updated yet for this episode, but was there a new, random, nameless person hanging out with the bridgecrew? She kindof looked like Lt. Nilsson, but wasn’t. And she even got a few lines, which is more than most of the bridgecrew have gotten. This show’s casting is so weird.
…answering my own question now that imdb is updated, it was apparently Lt. Ina, who also appeared once before in Su’Kal, and who is played by an actor who has done a bunch of background roles on the show over the years.Trek has always had one-off redshirts, and maybe Lt. Ina will get killed in the finale to make some sort of point?But my original sentence stands: this show’s casting (and continuing treatment of the bridgecrew) is so weird.Which also reminds me: so Detmer’s weird freakouts in the first half of the season really were apparently nothing? She just needed to zip around in Book’s ship for a bit, and now she’s not weirdly homicidal any more?
Totally concur here, and where is Nillson? She seems to be the defacto third in command, as she is shown to take the con or be relieved of it all the time.
I really wonder about the poor bridgecrew actors. Any given episode of disco is so hit-or-miss that they must need other gigs, right? So it’s the big giant finale, but Nilsson’s actress is off shooting a hallmark movie or a commercial or something, so just grab whoever has a similar haircut and create a new character? I feel like most of the bridgecrew had more lines in the 1.5 episodes we just spent in the mirrorverse than they’ve had in the previous 3 seasons.
What really bugs me is if they don’t have Sara Mitich for Nilsson to deliver those lines, why use an actress who looks just like her?Tig Notaro was on a podcast and she said she likes being a recurring actor because she can fly to Toronto for a few days and then go do her comedian/writing stuff. But the problem is that Jett Reno will disappear for several episodes, literally walk into the room, riff with everyone and go away for several episodes. And I can’t tell but I thought she was supposed to be the chief engineer.I’m still trying to understand why Commander Nhan was written out of the show. Remember her? She would have been Saru’s XO because she had the rank and competence.I just need the writers to write a crew bible so its consistent as to who does what on the ship, because otherwise it feels like it’s just a bunch of people running around making decisions without any structure.
For not-Nilsson, I’m going to pretend that the producers were being nice and threw a few lines to someone to get them something sag related (although I have no idea how any of that works so I’m probably wrong)And for Notaro I totally get how this could be a sweet gig, because she’s already famous~ish.But I’d love to know what Detmer, Owosekun, Rhys & Bryce think.(I had to look those last two up, and until now I did not know that the names Rhys & Bryce must have been picked as a joke. I honestly don’t know if either of those characters have ever been named-checked in the 32 episodes they’ve been in?)The recent mirror-ep wasn’t bad, but I realized that I have no sense of who regular Owosekun or Rhys are, so mirror versions of them don’t have much impact. Even mirror Robin Lefler or Leah Brahms from TNG would have more oomph.
I wonder if the writers even watch their own show or review their own scripts. The story arc before this one was literally about how awesome Mirror
Georgiou was. They had no problem allying with a genocidal
megalomaniac, using her skills and knowledge, and having her help the Federation using extremely underhanded methods like assassination and torture. They even spent like 5 minutes praising her
after she was gone. But now suddenly they can’t ally with Osyraa because she’s done bad
things before?
Heck, if anything, Osyraa was far more reasonable than Mirror Georgiou. Osyraa at least is trying to help her people and restore civilization to the galaxy. Mirror Georgiou was a sadistic renegade only concerned with her own self interest and hedonism.
And a minor nitpick, why the hell did Michael decide to fight that guy and choke him out? She knows how to do the Vulcan nerve pinch.
The toasting of Mirror Georgiou was a WILD choice. Her character might have worked if she was a regular terran transported to the prime universe, even if she was an equivalent starship captain, but to have the literal evil emperor get a tearful send off because she’d had about enough character development to not kill anyone she wanted to on sight just didn’t work at all. I’m doubly annoyed that they sent her back to the TOS era rather than letting her die outright, was hoping her inclusion in the future was a result of them quietly dropping plans for that awful sounding section 31 show.
Heck, if anything, Osyraa was far more reasonable than Mirror Georgiou. Osyraa at least is trying to help her people and restore civilization to the galaxy. Mirror Georgiou was a sadistic renegade only concerned with her own self interest and hedonism.Yeah, Osyraa is a pragmatist. An evil pragmatist, sure, but as you said, she’s trying to restore civilization in basically a post-apocalyptic hellscape that kind of reminds me of post-nuclear-war Earth in the Trek universe. The difference between how the Chain developed and the Federation was simply that idealists took the reins and not someone like Osyraa, even though, frankly, it’s much more likely that the latter would’ve happened IRL, sort of how it did in the Mirror Universe. She’s just trying to ensure that happens on her terms rather than the Federation’s. Neither power’s situation is tenable, so a compromise where both sides lose out in favor of total anarchy not breaking out is in the interests of both sides, even though they’ll both have to compromise some of their core values.Whether a compromised Federation-Chain civilization would be better than the fractured pockets of civilization and likely eventual anarchy opens up a lot of really interesting and nuanced questions, which I have zero doubt the show will absolutely fail to address in favor of reminding us again that only Burnham can save us.
It’s really not that different than the Federation allying with the Klingons and Romulans during the Dominion War. Both the Klingons and Romulans have done terrible things, they’ve both tried to destroy or conquer the Federation before, but the Dominion was the bigger threat and they had to come together if they wanted to survive.
In fairness to the terrible Admiral, he’s not saying that an alliance can’t happen – he’s just demanding that Osyraa be tried. But the problem is that it’s such a personal, face-to-face request. It would be like in Undiscovered Country when Gorkon starts putting out peace feelers, if over dinner Kirk had said “So we demand to put you, personally on trial.”I don’t know how those kindof things go in the real world, but it doesn’t seem like a great way to get any sort of treaty signed.(and yes, when mirror-Georgio first showed up Burnham’s federation had zero problems giving her the keys to the Disco, and then playing with Leland)
The Admiral is a terrible negotiator. Trek has obviously always had a problem with terrible Adminals. And there’s also the economy-of-characters where one character gets way too many jobs because the show doesn’t want to create a bunch of new characters.But this is starfleet HQ, and not some backwater outpost. When Osyraa made her pitch they realistically should have pulled the Admiral and brought in some actual diplomats who know what they’re doing.
Exactly, it’s not like the Federation hasn’t allied with morally ambiguous civilizations before. They made peace with the Klingons and established an alliance even though the Klingons were still conquering and enslaving people. They even had a TNG episode where a planet conquered by the Klingons was rebelling and the Federation wasn’t interfering.Even if they refused to join together with the Emerald Chain, they could have at least tried to negotiate a peace and mutual defense alliance like they had with the Klingons.
The fun thing about international relations is that whether Osyraa is morally ambiguous is actually irrelevant.
The question is whether she is actually negotiating in good faith or running a con. By adding a values-based position the admiral forces a bad-faith negotiator make what looks like an unreasonable rejection but invites the good-faith negotiator to continue negotiating. In the latter case the admiral could negotiate his own demands down to a formality once he establishes his counterparty’s bona fides.
On the other hand, Stamets’s completely inability to separate his
professional and personal lives is about as good a justification for
banning relationships among the crew as one could imagine.
But it was Michael who got saved by her lover. Not Stamets. It was also Michael who put the crew in danger to save her lover and her former affair, the Klingon. So far Stamets hasn’t done anything that is comparable to Michaels “selfless” attitude, that somehow managed always to save her own life and the ones she loves.
If banning relationships among the crew is a rule only Stamets would follow it. Not Michael.
In the past there were people who thought women shouldn’t be soldiers or politicians because there are too “emotional”. That was just as false as believing it would make a difference whether Stamets priorities were wrong because of his personal life. The terrible writing wants us to believe that and it’s shockingly regressive to do that with a gay character.
I dont think its terrible writing that wants us to believe that.. just the writer of this article. Stamets was given like 4 seconds to process what was going on then was knocked out. Not to mention he doesnt understand that like only 10 of his crew is aboard the ship. For all he knows Michael rescuing him proves that they took back the ship. Any reasonable viewer would understand his confusion, terror, and then rage.
And I don’t think enough of a fuss is being made about just how good Anthony Rapp is in that scene.
omg thank you. His build up and then delivery of “my entire life is on that planet” gaves me the best/worst chills. I actually watched the moment twice.
If banning relationships among the crew is a rule only Stamets would follow it. Not Michael.If relationships were banned among the crew Michael would have ten of them simultaneously and that would somehow solve galactic hunger and result in the discovery of a creature that poops out enough dilithium to power Starfleet for the next 1000 years.
What the hell is happening to this show? The first episode had so much promise, but jeez it’s gone down hill really quickly. I no longer feel like I have to defend it when people attack it for being stupid, so that’s a benefit.Another thing, this episode did not deserve a B+, and your review doesn’t read like a B+ episode, so why that score? This was a C episode at best.
but tipping over into full on kid movie “science is magic!” nonsense is a step too damn far.As if “physics as biology/biology as physics” wasn’t….
Wow- with one key exception- overall I felt that was actually really strong and we’ll done- on its own and by DISC standards. I’m impressed. Maybe upon further rewatches I’ll find more nits to pick but I didn’t see any glaring faults. Anyone else think when Michael was crawling thru the crawl space she was going to start reciting Lewis Carroll again?? lol- I couldn’t help having that flashback to the last time she did that (can’t remember the exact ep’s name).And of course the exception is- oh, so the bots are sentient and talk now. Well ged dammit who asked for that??While the bots are cute, endearing, and little fun floofs whimsy; the last 15 seconds with the sunshine WALL-E gang was lame, tacked on, and unnecessary. The writers can’t help DOING TOO MUCH, ah god it gives me hernias and gas. If they had JUST stopped 15 seconds sooner everything would have felt complete, well-plotted and (mostly) natural to me. Why Disco… why? Ah gahd when _will_ they learn to quit when they are ahead??? Ah maybe never. I think these writers get lost in their own enthusiasm for their show too much. If 5 things are great they naturally think 10 will be even better. Discretion is the better part of valor, my friends. Sometimes it’s ok to just- you know- let things be. Eh.Other than that, I thought the ep was strong. I might have to do a deeper watch later but yep- upon a first watch it felt well-rounded and solid. Events didn’t feel overly rushed and the emotional moments connected for me. If they could have stretched these same events over twice as long a length of viewing time, to treat us to more back and forth between Vance and Ossyraa, and to allow the tension and tautness to reach saturation levels and to utilize more purposeful silences, that would have been ideal by me, but the writers would never have the patience for that kind of nonsense dilettantism (don’t you know- they are contractually obligated to provide at least three big action-y narrative kick-punches per episode), so I have accepted that and moved on. Disco’s not that kind of show and you know- that’s okay. I’ve accepted that. At least The Expanse or BSG (more or less) is, so if I want that I can go there. (Side question- how the hell did I not know about The Expanse until a month ago? It’s been going on for five years!)
I hope my punctuation and minor content edits show up bc I can’t see them.
When you edit, you won’t see them until you refresh the page.
Ok now you’re just lying to me. Last time I refreshed my phone I ended up traveling thru a time vortex to the Lost Planets of Zorgan. Let’s just say that getting back was a challenge.Yeah I’m not falling for that again- nice try buddy!
I think the sphere was sentient and its data uploaded was not but had the potential to be and would help that groups AI become sentient.. I guess blending with all that earth tv data gave it a personality?
Once we accept that the Sphere possessed sentience somehow (I wish it was explained or at least mentioned and theorized in a character conversation, but okay), I suppose it’s a short distance to accept that they could animate and direct the WALL-Es once they transferred some of their data into them, and don’t get me wrong, it was ridiculously cute, which I like, but my main beef is that it was just TOO cute and unnecessary in an otherwise satisfying episode. It’s gimmicky, and while I wouldn’t mind that perhaps elsewhere, I just didn’t need or want that right now. I could see it possibly if if it was something the crew thought of themselves and began working on, but I didn’t prefer it done in this manner as some cool neat trick that luckily just happened to come thru in the nick of time to give our heroes a hand. I won’t deny it was a fun quirky idea but everything was tonally and narratively sufficient without it. A little too Deus ex machina you know?
I think they def mentioned that the sphere was a mechanical lifeform wishing to pass on its data before its lifecycle ended (that was the reason for the hacking of ships and all that shit way back when). Whether the data it passed on was sentient.. yea they didnt touch that.
And i totally agree with you about being TOO cute. Like the little robots have been around this whole season in the headquarters and stuff but the voice/mannerisms is too much. Hopefully they will explain that the data watched wall e or some shit and tried to adapt that and someone says its wierd and then it acts normal. Also if the data just became sentient they might be able to pull of some childlike mannerisms? but yea cute and annoying
We know from one of the Short Treks that the DISCO computer eventually becomes sentient. The Sphere Data is how that happens – we saw how the computer talked to Saru earlier this season to “introduce” itself and make a suggestion about how to help the crew relax.As for the Sphere Data appearing in the mini-robots, we have seen these robots throughout the entire series, so they aren’t anything new. And earlier in this episode one of Osira’s goons told her that they had taken control (or erased, can’t remember) all of DISCO’s computer systems except one minor system, which was obviously SD. So SD put itself into the mini-robots as (a) a way to hide from Osira, and (b) a way to communicate with the crew.
If a fire in a jefferies tube always risked that you might be vented into space, you’d think that Geordi and O’Brien would have shown more hustle over the years.(I thought the jefferies tube venting was quite silly and poorly thought-out)
It was basically a way for Michael to lose her boots, to make the Die Hard homage complete.
I thought the Jeffries tube venting was silly, but little did I know what the writers had planned for the turbolifts in the finale…
I have realized my biggest problem with ST:Disco is the character of Michael Burnham. She is just not a character I understand on any level consistently. Pretty much everyone else is much better written. How can a show be this successful when the main protagonist if relatable?
Surprised to be citing Enterprise as being better at something than another Trek series, but their Andorians were way better than this, weren’t they? This stubby-immobile-antennaed version of the design is lameass.
It seems the bulk of Discovery’s practical effects budget was spent on Doug Jones. Sacrifices have to be made for those hi-fidelity, crisp looking CGI space battles.
I much prefered the original Talosians to the DISCO ones.
his antenna were severed.
You know how humans dont all look exactly the same, some have different skin tones and features? Same deal with Andorians, Vulcans, whoever.
Ryn’s antennae were cut off by Osyraa, unless there was another Andorian that I missed in this episode?
Nah, somebody pointed that out to me elsewhere; I’ve been kind of skimmy in my viewings of recent episodes until I can rewatch more closely, and have yet to get to that, so my mistake there, but I still think the general design of the ol’ Trek forehead prostheses is poorer here than what Shran’s Andorians wore.
Hmm, yeah – interesting how things seem to be panning out. I don’t get what Osyra was trying to accomplish if she really went into the federation territory wanting to negotiate and not blowing things up as the premise seemed to initially tease – the whole episode gave the impression that Osyra and the Emerald chain is not completely evil but pragmatist, turning things on their head when thinking about the episodes that came before. Let’s see what happens after this, Season 4 depends on it!And yeah, best season yet.
wait, but if this is the Mirror Universe, thenthe Andorians should be peaceful, trustworthy allies of the Federation
if this were not Star Trek, it would come off half as bad as it doesbut the WEIGHT of The Trek is heavy over this show
HOW is this a B+? I’m afraid this show has lost me this season. I simply don’t care anymore. Apart from the incomprehensible stuff with the Vulcan/Romulans and the cringe inducing speechifying over Phillipa, this season’s only somewhat compelling mystery was hand-waved away as resulting from a superpowered temper tantrum. I had some hope for the Pike show, but it’s pretty much evaporated, especially after Picard. I don’t trust CBS to produce anything worth getting invested in.
Michael tells Booker she loves him. This isn’t specifically a Discovery issue, but it’s high time TV shows stopped pretending this was a big deal out of certain specific situations. They’ve been a couple for a little while, they’re obviously close, her saying it now changes nothing but they act like it does.Really? You don’t find it a big deal when someone you’re dating and care about very much says ‘I love you’ for the first time? You don’t see that as an important milestone? It’s absolutely a big deal to everyone I know and probably the most realistic aspect of TV plots about dating.
I think Zack’s issue is that shows keep doing in in the middle of gig high-stress situations, not saying that the first time isn’t a big deal.
Rereading his words, I don’t think so. He says they’ve been a couple for a while, so saying ‘I love you’ doesn’t change anything.
While Michael and Book have known each other for a year, it was only a few episodes ago where they actually admitted their romantic feelings toward each other. So they’ve only been a “couple” for a brief period of time.
Oh, Ryn gets shot. He’s heroic, and then he gives a speech about how love triumphs over hate, and then Osyraa shoots him.Well, that’s an understatement.
This show suffers so much from bad writing.
And Burnham’s whispering. Stamets was shouting from inside the force field and Michael was replying to him by whispering. I mean apart from being really annoying and showing an unstable person, constant whispering is making it really hard communicating with someone, simple beacause you can’t be always heard.
And of course she cried at the end.
She is crying at the spot for every difficult decision/action she makes.
How on earth a person can change emotional status so fast under this kind of circumstances and then instantly switches back to being calm and effective? I think it is completely unrealistic.
And at this point I believe it is the actress issue. She is not good at showing emotions without crying, so she keeps using tears for every emotional situation.
Didn’t Discovery went to the future so the sphere data won’t be used by Control or whatever? I might missed something, but if they did so Burnham doesn’t feel alone, they are all as unstable as she is.
Ossyra’s plan is stupid. As are her regulators.
So the Vulcan/Romulans will apparently save the day in the next episode?
Michael was whispering because she was trying to keep quiet. The bad guys were looking for her. She was trying to get Stamets to be quiet too but he was too upset.She cried at the end because she rescued her friend but he was angry with her and blamed her for potentially killing his family – Hugh and Adira. He was telling her that he wouldn’t forgive her for this. Seems like a reasonable reason to cry to me.“Didn’t Discovery went to the future so the sphere data won’t be used by Control or whatever?” Yes, that was it. “I might missed something, but if they did so Burnham doesn’t feel alone, they are all as unstable as she is.” Not sure what your point is here.
It was classic Trek! There are so many ways to put out a fire that don’t involve killing everyone in its vicinity, even in the present. And yet in the future, no can do.
Stamets is an unprofessional prick who needs to get out of uniformed service. Your duty comes before your personal needs and wants, you whiny asshole. Stop making me agree with St. Michael.
Stamets had already lost Hugh before. Miraculously he got him back, and now in his eyes Michael is sentencing him to death by preventing Stamets from taking DISCO back to the planet to rescue him. His reaction is completely reasonable, even as a Starfleet officer.
I think you may have unwittingly hit upon a tagline for Discovery:‘Star Trek: Discovery…the speed with which things are tossed aside is a little discouraging.
No idea if the parallels are intentional but a lot of things in this episode reminded me of the declining Roman/Western Roman Empire. Even when the “barbarians” were fighting Rome they also wanted to be Romans due to the prestige and the idealisation of the Rome as civilisation. It took a fair while until they actually stopped installing puppet emperors and consuls and making themselves Roman just did away with it.Even when I studied history the ancient world was never my actual area of study so any experts feel free to correct me if the historiography has changed or something. I’ve actually heard some people say that by the 4th/5th century Rome was actually at the periphery of the dominant Steppe people’s world and not the other way round as we like to think. I got the same sorta vibe from the stuff in the show about how the Chain actually has the more flourishing scientific sphere and economy etc
“It took a fair while until they actually stopped installing puppet emperors and consuls and making themselves Roman just did away with it.”The Holy Roman Empire lasted until 1806. That empire didn’t even contain Rome, but they still maintained the brand.
There are a lot of comments here nitpicking, if they have such issues with discovery it makes me wonder why they are bothering with it.
I’ve realized now I don’t quite grasp what the present size and importance of The Federation is. When we got to the future we were told The Federation no longer existed at all, then they found the remaining bit of The Federation very easily, but there definitely did not seem to to be a whole ton of them and they’re not that powerful, it didn’t appear, but now Osyraa very badly wants to team up with them for some reason or another when she had already stolen Discovery and had the most powerful tools in the universe (spore drive and sphere data).
Michael tells Booker she loves him. […] her saying it now changes nothing but they act like it does Um, no. Micheal says it jokingly, and Book teases her. Neither treat it like a big deal (independant of the big plot moment they’re dealing with) or indicates that anything has changed.
So we’re just not going to mention that the replicators are powered by shit now? God I hate this show so much…
The way I CACKLED when those little robots floated by. I’ve actually mostly been a fan of the “sentient sphere data” running thread. But I liked it because it was kind of mysterious, in a Trek way. I think I like it least when it is directly communicating with people, like it did on movie night. And now I guess, what, it’s gonna be running around in some robots and shit? I don’t know y’all.
“Clearly the character is going on an arc where he realizes that Osyraa
isn’t all she pretends to be, but given the dry, flat line-readings,
it’s hard to get invested in his inner turmoil. I just wanted him to
stop talking.”A bit of research perhaps would have made you look like less of an a-hole. From IO9: “Kenneth Mitchell returning out of Klingon make up to play a
wheelchair-using character has a special, heartfelt significance here:
the actor was diagnosed with ALS in 2018 and began using a wheelchair
himself last year before publicly revealing his diagnosis in early 2020. Seeing Discovery
not make special note of Aurelio using a chair himself, given its very
fleeting previous attempts to incorporate disabled actors into the
series, was good to see, on top of bringing back Mitchell in the first
place.”
Wow. I have defended this show as the first two seasons of gthis show have been more interesting than the first two seasons of any other Trek shw since TOS, but this third season has been no better than the prior two and a step down from the third season of any previous Trek show. Also, the irony of Burnham, who has never had a problem risking the lives of others for her own personal interests, betraying Stamets that way instead of backing him up was awful. She should never be allowed near a captain’s chair.
This was an improvement on the previous four or five episodes which were absolutely dire, but it’s still pretty shaky and full of eye rolling moments. Cute Sphere Data robots ffs…. that said the show seems to improve when they dial down the emotions and get on with their jobs. Instant Badass Tilly (just add water) was laughable. The scenes with She-Hulk and the Admiral were pretty good and the kind of thing the show should be doing more of. It all feels too little too late though. I can see a tsunami of tears and a massive circle jerk coming in the finale.
Did I miss the introduction of those little robots? I know they’re in the intro and have been seen in passing, but I feel like no one talked about them until this deus ex machine