With The Falcon And The Winter Soldier’s launch Friday on Disney+, the viewing public has once again been reacquainted with our old pals Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes. With a first episode that offers a lot of table setting for what’s to come, The Falcon And The Winter Soldier promises to be a whiz-bang, smash-’em-up six parter, as well as a surprisingly deep and emotional look at what it truly means to be Captain America. To get a better sense of how the show came together, we sat down with the director of all six episodes, Kari Skogland, to talk about Bucky Barnes’ time in therapy, being a woman working in “a muscular space,” and why she thinks there’s too much gunplay in entertainment.
The A.V. Club: Wandavision was a huge success for Disney+ in terms of fan involvement with the show. Has that put pressure on you in terms of expectations? I actually talked to [showrunner] Jac Schaeffer from Wandavision about this, but can you please everybody all the time when it comes to a Marvel project?
Kari Skogland: I’m sure we can’t. I’m just trying to stay true to the story that we’re telling.
Wandavision came out of the gate swinging, and that’s fantastic. I was thrilled for them because it’s such a creative show and so unique and different. It couldn’t have opened the whole Disney streaming thing for Marvel better, as far as I can tell. They set the bar high, though, and how exciting is that for us?
I hope the fans embrace our show. We love making this show. We’re very, very proud of it. I hope the fans embrace it as much as we love making it. I’m sure [Jac] would say the same. I just hope our fans are as engaged.
It’s spectacular that the fan base is so invested in these characters and is so interested. I think it is extraordinary.
AVC: I’ve heard the show compared to a buddy action-comedy, and some previews have mentioned that it’s reminiscent of some beloved action movies. Did you guys watch anything in reference? What was on your mood board?
KS: That’s a great way to put it. The way I try to get inspiration and ideas and such is from a very, very wide swath of different genres, even if I’m looking at a particular execution, mostly because I want it to have some originality. I wanted the show to have not just my personal voice, but also to embrace other ideas that I can bring into the genre. So it’s all about feeding those synapses and stirring the pot and coming out with something that’s hopefully original.
So I look at a wide range, everything cinematically from a David Lean to a movie that Lina Wertmüller did. More recently, The Untouchables, 48 Hours, and Lethal Weapon were some of the classics we watched for sure, because we were in that sort of arena. But the goal was to really embrace all aspects of relationship movies as much as we could because we had so much more real estate and so much more time to explore with these characters.
I wanted to be informed, though, so I bubbled it all together, “put that there, put that there,” and hopefully it becomes something fresh.
AVC: There are some huge action pieces in the first episode. You’ve worked on action projects before, but I have to imagine there’s still a learning curve when it comes to, say, shooting a dogfight in a canyon. What was the most difficult set piece for you to figure out?
KS: I think all the action sequences have to serve character and story and character story. So I looked at every one of those as having a unique angle and a unique perspective. I wanted each action sequence to have its own unique DNA at its core. So we really looked for how to mix that up in a way that was not only satisfying visually from a certain perspective, but really from a character place.
I look at action sequences much like you look at a drama sequence: It’s still got a beginning, middle, and end, and it’s got violence in it of some form that’s character based.
I guess one of the things that I did as a sort of overview was that we reduced weaponry. That does mean that all the things we choreographed come from sort of a different mindset, and that just by definition brings a different flavor to a scene.
AVC: Why did you decide to do that?
KS: For obvious reasons. I think that we need to look at weaponry in entertainment as being too much of a crutch. We wanted to have our characters be clever and interesting and not just rely on the go-to.
AVC: Watching the first episode, I was really struck by the emotional state these guys would be as we meet them. We’ve lost two Avengers. Half the people in the world—including some of our characters here—were gone for five full years. A lot has changed. Bucky was a hired killer for decades! He should definitely be in therapy, so I’m glad he is, frankly.
KS: I think all these characters have seen or been involved with very traumatic events, and I don’t think Marvel’s ever shied away from exploring the consequences of some of those events. We just have a little more time to do it. In our case, we’re able to explore it on a more detailed character level just because we have the time.
So, yeah, I’m looking at consequences, looking at, you know, he left behind a trail of victims and there’s collateral damage. What does that look like and what does that feel like for a guy who has to cope with what it is to go forward? He’s going to have to do something in order to be able to find some relevance for his future in relation to where he sits as a result of his past.
AVC: In past interviews, you’ve talked about the glass ceiling for women directors. What does it mean for you to be given this chance on a very big scale, and how are you helping other women along the way?
KS: It was a huge opportunity. If Captain America comes knocking at your door, you answer the door.
I was thrilled to tell the story, because I feel it really is one of the most important stories of this century because of the themes and the relevance to what’s happening right now in our world. So it was a very onside with my political thoughts and views and what I like to embed in entertainment. So I was absolutely thrilled.
I think going forward, what I’m hoping is that I can be part of the wave because there’s a number of women who are doing big movies and shows like this. Marvel’s been at the forefront of promoting that as well.
Very soon I hope we no longer say “female directors” or “male director” or “Black directors” or “Chinese director.” I hope soon we are able to just say directing or writing so that the labels and the genders and the ethnicity count less.
I obviously like to work in a muscular space. I enjoy working in a world that is very challenging and that isn’t what we think stereotypically is feminine. I think men can do the same thing. It’s about the passion of the filmmaker. It’s about the sensibility of the film. So I would hate for the world to be come to a place where only women can tell women’s stories. Only men can tell men’s stories. I think it has to come from the heart and from the skill set and from the hard work that it takes to get to anywhere where you’re successful and let it be that instead of getting tangled in other politics.
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I thought Skogland was a surprising choice when she was hired, because I’d only seen two of her films (Children of the Corn 666 and Riverworld), and neither were, well… Anyway, I’d also seen an episode here and there that she’s directed, and some of those were pretty good (the episode of Punisher she directed was a good one). She’s done a great job on Falcon & The Winter Soldier if the first episode is anything to go by.It’s interesting, Kevin Feige had been taking a lot of flack for the lack of female directors in the MCU, and he promised increased diversity in the hiring, and that really has ramped up. Women are directing Falcon, Loki, Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, and She Hulk (aside from Eternals, Black Widow, and Captain Marvel 2).
i did find it refreshing that Falcon didn’t just whip out a pair of uzis (or whatever) whenever he needed to take somebody down, made the action more compelling imo..although of course he’s still got his redwing drone packed with some weapons
Agreed, it’s just so much more interesting to watch other types of fighting.
This is exactly what I want from an homage to classic action films – scaled back gunplay.
You’re no fan of action films if you think they can’t be done without guns.
When did anyone label this as an homage to action films? Just because WandaVision was an homage to sitcoms doesn’t mean every one of these is going to be a love letter to their genre.
Have you seen The Expendables? That’s what that one is.
Exactly. On one hand, suuuuure. On the other, it’s laughably splitting hairs to say they’re using fewer guns when the first episode is basically warfare explosion-o-rama. Plenty of anonymous soldiers are dispensed, but hey, they weren’t all shot! Very thoughtful.
The point wasn’t that guns are evil, the point was that they can be a crutch that gets in the way of unique action sequences.
You are right, and I did a shitty job reading the article!
No worries, it happens!
Covert Affairs and (to an extent) Alias were both good at this, as I recall.
Agatha Harkness says “Shhhhh — we don’t talk about that here….”
Marah Eakin is the Executive Producer of all A.V. Club Video And Podcasts. She is also a Cleveland native and heiress to the country’s largest collection of antique and unique bedpans and urinals. I was going comment on the success of the MCU and small screen analogues and the comparison to DC’s hits and misses, but then… but then!I suppose the answer to the question that I’ve bolded would take its own long-form article to answer?
Recently, working in grocery stores, I noticed that the person stocking the aisle with the beauty products and tampons etc. was female at four different stores I worked at. When that position became available I inquired to management about it and they told me the company only wants a female stocking those products. 2021.
I, for one, am very excited to see what clues* they put in to hint towards what the big twist** at the finale will be.* cameos** handoff to the next movie or tv series
Eh, WandaVision ended up being pretty much self contained. No reason this can’t be as well.
The entire point of Wandavision was to transition to Dr. Strange 2.
That’s why Wandavision ends in a remote cabin in the middle of the woods, because Raimi is directing Dr Strange 2.
That’s hardly the entire point of WandaVision.
Is that all you got from it?
The next tv series is Loki in June and right now I don’t see how Falcon and Winter Soldier could hand off to a character in a different timeline.
“GOOD. BAD. I’M THE GUY WITH THE INFINITY STONE LODGED IN MY FOREHEAD.”
Unless he ends up in the main timeline somehow.Worked for Miles Morales.
I wonder if they’d go there since they made such a huge point in Endgame about how the alternate timeline has to be left unchanged. Removing Loki would definitely change it.
I think it was less that the overall timeline had to be unchanged and more that the Infinity Stones had to be where they were supposed to be since the conversation was focused on keeping the stones in place more than anything else.
The stones had to be returned to the same place in time so that the alternate timeline wouldn’t change. Removing a person would definitely change the timeline. Even Tony said, “You mess with time, it tends to mess back.” and he was right.
Was he right? Because we haven’t actually seen any of the effects of their time/dimensional travel yet. I mean, Tony died because he chose to use the gauntlet despite only needing to fly away with it while Wanda or Captain Marvel (who vanishes for some time after getting punched w/ the power stone but is apparently fine during Tony’s death scene) killed Thanos. Doctor Strange pretty much set him on that specific path.
Thanos died because he was the 2014 Thanos who basically jumped into a fight with n0 real intel (other than what he glimpsed from Nebula’s wifi brain) and tried to brute force a victory. He lacked the experience, strategy and sacrifices Infinity War Thanos had. The one person we see routinely mess with time, Doctor Strange, does so with no actual downside (yet, I guess they could make the plot of Multiverse of Madness focus on the consequences of him experiencing all those timelines to fight Thanos and messing with Dormmamu). Strange literally got to choose the timeline where the only other snarky guy with elaborate facial hair sacrifices himself. I think the only questionable thing is Black Widow’s death. Which was crazy because Nebula realized what happened with Gamora in Infinity War and should’ve been able to warn Hawkeye and Widow so they can go back to the Chitauri invasion and sacrifice a dying Coulson or something. I mean, its not like they knew he’d end up dying like 2-3 more times in the main timeline thanks to Agents of Shield… which might’ve ended up in its own timeline after their time travel season.
….yes. like immediately we saw his words work out. they messed with time, Thanos found out about them messing with time, Guardians never got formed cuz Gamora was still fairly on his side and hadnt even been clued as to finding out about Vormir yet, Thanos hitched a ride back in time and tried to destroy everything on a permanent level, literally changed his entire plan to be “start from nothing” instead of “wipe out half”.
Stark’s words were proven right in the movie he said them in.
This is great news for the Bucky fans who were bummed that he didn’t do much other than shoot guns in Infinity War and Endgame. Looking forward to some more badass action with him and that arm.
I was rewatching CA: Winter Soldier the other day and the amount of ammunition spilled in that film is sillier than a teenager with Spider powers.
But it’s fun!
Oh I think the film is real fun; just that people pointing to it as more grounded than average superhero films are misguided. A few of the action beats are a little off. Cap and Widow surviving the collapsing building for example.
I was just rewatching it last night and that is so true. The sequence where Hydra is trying to get Fury is just ridiculous with gun fire. And it’s even more so because they don’t manage to kill him. Who were these Hydra guys? Ex stormtroopers?
The bridge scene. My lord.
Am I the only old person who can’t help calling this “The Falcon and the Winter Snowman?”And where the hell are Timothy Hutton and Sean Pean?