The Falcon And The Winter Soldier returns to form in “The Whole World Is Watching”
TV Reviews Falcon
“The Whole World Is Watching” marks a return to form. Better yet, it finally establishes that The Falcon And The Winter Soldier has a form. Before every episode so far, I’ve been at a loss as to what to expect from this show in terms of tone, plotline, focus, or even characterization. I don’t mean that I’ve always gone in spoiler-free (although I’ve done my best to do so). I just mean the show’s objectives are so much a mystery that the tone is less suspenseful than it is directionless.
In its fourth episode, The Falcon And The Winter Soldier returns to the emotional through line that hovered in the first two installments. I alluded to this in my recap of episode two, but the show feels like it’s more about veterans than it is about soldiers. We already know Sam is a veteran, but with the Avengers no longer a team (would you call them disbanded?), so is Bucky. Both of the title characters have struggled with returning to the line of duty (and fire), while others, like Karli Morgenthau and the Flag-Smashers, would rather assume the mantle of “soldiers” than “refugees.” Some people are looking for a fight—or, perhaps more accurately, can’t avoid one.
Nowhere is this more evident than in John Walker. The way that his character has been built this season has been impressive, partly thanks to the excellent acting of Wyatt Russell. Despite his claims that he doesn’t know what he’s doing in the MCU, Russell really strikes an amazing balance between John’s frustrations and fears. This is made abundantly clear when John plaintively says, after losing and losing badly to the Dora Milaje, “They weren’t even super soldiers.” It’s really a testament to Russell’s acting that the moment isn’t pathetic or self-pitying. Instead, as Russell’s next scene highlights, he takes the failure to heart. He and Lemar discuss the main thematic moral dilemma in this episode: Would they take the super soldier serum if they could?
Lemar points out that John already has three medals of honor, so he shouldn’t question his abilities, but his partner counters that he won those to celebrate “the worst day of [his] life,” and that their time in Afghanistan involved them doing things that felt “anything but right.” For him, being Cap is a way to right those wrongs, and do so with a morality he felt he had to sacrifice before.
At first, I thought we were going to flashback to John’s worst day, but then I realized that for John, those flashbacks are happening all the time. The devastating end of this episode, where he brutally kills a Flag Smasher after Lemar is killed in a fight with them, feels all the more horrible and inevitable after that sequence. I mentioned the way that soldiers in war are depicted in media in my recap of “The Star Spangled Man.” Well, this episode goes a little deeper into the way veterans are depicted. Two similarly excellent examples I can think of in terms of shows with storylines about modern-day veterans are You’re the Worst and Barry.
There might be more, which I invite you to share, but my taste skews comedy. But even the non-drama shows don’t shy away from the disturbing aspects of their characters’ pasts, and the way their pasts live in their presents. The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk tells a similar story of a veteran—in this case, of the Vietnam War—remembering or reliving a time when a buddy died in combat and he took out his pain and rage on someone nearby. There’s a reason PTSD became a recognizable health condition after the Vietnam War, graduating from the less formal “shell-shock” that was discussed post-World Wars.
One could put all this blame on John, especially since he took the serum himself before that last fight (as evidenced by the way he bends a gun). But what about the people who chose him? The fact that John wouldn’t go to therapy but Bucky has… obviously, neither of them seem like the type to go, but it’s interesting that Bucky was given court-mandated therapy while Walker was allowed to roam free, despite holding many heavy memories. Even if the government did psychological testing, you wonder how the hell they would’ve overlooked his obvious PTSD and decided he was a good candidate to put in a war zone.
Of course, then there’s the way “The Whole World Is Watching” contrasts both Bucky and John with Sam. Sam has done the work—not only has he done the work, he knows the work that needs to be done and how to encourage others. He worked at the VA hospital discussing these traumas and leading group therapy with veterans, and encouraged Steve Rogers to do the same. It’s a way for the show to go back to Sam’s introduction to the MCU and reframe the way he gets Steve to open up to him, as if telling his origin story. It’s also why he feels like a true de facto leader in this episode, unlike John, who even tries to fight him in order to asset dominance. Oh, John. Sam’s empathy and emotional intelligence are what pulled Steve in, and what got Steve to trust him incredibly quickly.
Sam does the same with Karli when he attempts to defuse the situation after Donya’s memorial. Before John messes things up, Sam gets Karli to see he empathizes, but that her methods are off. Like a lot of you commenters, I found Karli bombing a building a frustrating turn for the worse for the Flag-Smashers leader. It seemed to come out of nowhere. But the fact that Sam shows sympathy for her efforts highlights that the show is trying to be more nuanced than that. And it does so by partly using Karli’s actions as a cautionary tale on the serum.
Zemo hates the serum, and says anyone who believes in it is “a supremacist.” He delights in how Sam immediately says he wouldn’t take the serum, but Sam doesn’t agree with Zemo’s philosophy. “Isn’t that how gods talk?” Sam asks, in a way that leaves Zemo without an answer. Zemo pinpoints Steve as the only person to be good after taking the serum. I don’t agree. In fact, the way that the characters deify Steve as the only person to respond well to the serum feels remarkably unfounded. It’s not that Steve was a better person than anyone, but the situation behind him taking the serum has yet to be repeated. Not only was he much younger and more naturally idealistic than any of the other people who’ve taken the serum—Bucky and the Bruce Banner of The Incredible Hulk come to mind—he was also the most frail.
As someone who has (or has had) at least half the ailments on Steve’s enlistment forms, my immediate answer is yes to taking the serum. It’s not hard for me to see how Steve taking the serum would make him a better person. It’s much easier to be kind to people when your lungs are stronger, your body’s bigger, your mind isn’t desperately making assessments on how much energy you have for the day, especially after years of struggling. But also because you understand how fragile other people are, not just physically but emotionally. As my friend and healthcare journalist Cat Ferguson has told me, the brain and body separation is largely a myth. Perhaps the serum works not because of some mysterious element in the body, but because changing a body, making it stronger than a normal human’s, making your recovery time less, making it harder to kill you… naturally devolves your sense of other’s mortality. And speaking as someone who has had a lot of health problems in recent years that have needed regular medicine, it’s amazing how much of a difference just having stronger lungs that can make you feel as a person. Not being able to rely on your health consistently changes your personality. You become grateful for things other people take for granted.
Heck, you could say the reason Bucky became the Winter Soldier rather than a beacon of compassion like Steve is because he took the serum after he’d been in the war. He was experimented on by Hydra before they gave him the serum, so even then Hydra must’ve had an eye on him as potential to be a brainwashed assassin. Perhaps he was chosen because of his combination of an urge to be good and a sense of obedience. It’s a fact that Bucky is probably more aware of than he’d like, and that’s why the giant hole in his heart for Steve weighs so heavily on him. He doesn’t know who to follow or to trust.
That’s what made Steve more than a soldier. There was something empathetic and diplomatic about him—and when I say diplomatic, I don’t mean he appeased others, or he negotiated with people’s lives. Instead, his first response wasn’t brutality, but understanding. Just like Sam. Unfortunately, this is exactly what both Karli and John are missing. Karli says things like “If I killed you, it’d be meaningless” to Sam because to her, other people are symbols rather than people. And this is why I highlighted why it was slightly suspect that John had scored high in “intelligence.” Being strategic and able to command people and make quick decisions is a very different form intelligence than being able to connect with others and lead them when they have no reason to be led by you. And for both Karli and Johnny, it seems the serum will be their downfall.
Stray observations
- I know I didn’t write too much about Ayo, but it was a dream to see her and the Dora Milaje, especially the way they fight. The way they took care of Bucky is really amazingly compassionate, and it makes me wonder if that’s another thing Bucky holds against himself.
- Donya’s funeral and memorial were beautiful. Props to production design.
- Bucky, about John: “I know a crazy when I see one. Because I am crazy.” Sam: “No one’s arguing with that.”
- Also, Sam trying to tell Bucky to get the Dora Milaje to lay off of John—man, Bucky really hates that guy.
- So basically Shuri installed and upgraded Bucky’s arm, but with a surefire way for the Dora Milaje to literally disarm him? Nothing is ever free. That’s some “The North Remembers” shit.
- I wonder if we’ll get to see the Battlestar logo Lemar would add to autographs.
- “What’s with all the knives?” quips John during one of many very good and creative action sequences. What is with all the knives?
- Have you seen this clip of Zemo dancing for a straight hour?
- Of course the way Zemo draws in the children with the Turkish Delight reminded me of the White Witch from the Narnia books, but it’s also a little bit of the child-catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. The show balances out Zemo’s warmth so the scene is sinister and compelling rather than creepy.
- Why is Zemo always making and bringing them tea?
502 Comments
Yeah, I really liked this episode. I enjoyed the way they brought together the show’s three main antagonists* into the same space and let us see their different motives and methods, which makes for a pretty broad spectrum.It wasn’t hard to guess that Walker was going to take the serum, but the setup was still really great. Especially back to back with Zemo: a man most would call a villain sees the serum and starts destroying it because he knows it’s dangerous; a man most would call a hero sees the serum and pockets some for his own.The differing explanations by Sam and Hoskins as to why they would or wouldn’t take the serum was on point. I’m anticipating a final showdown where Sam in some way defeats (or upstages) Walker sans serum, which would be awesome. (I think Bucky will have an opportunity to kill Zemo, and want to kill Zemo, but then instead hands him over to the Dora Milaje.)Having recently re-watched The Winter Soldier, I could’ve warned that guy that you don’t take on Bucky in a knife fight and win.I also laughed maybe a bit too hard when Walker went at it with the Dora Milaje, and Zemo’s like, “This is amusing, now where’s my exit,” and Sam and Bucky are like, “Ugh, I guess we should probably intervene.”*(I’m guessing the Power Broker will prove to be the Big Bad; or maybe Sharon’s taken on the mantle in a Liara-as-Shadow-Broker kind of way.)
Bucky’s “You’re doing great!” when Sam asks if they should do something was the best. Mackie and Stan nailed the delivery.A moment of levity before the turn.
I love how much personality we’re getting to see from Bucky on this show.
So much this. They’ve short-shifted Bucky(and Stan) for a decade, and now he’s been freed!I also like that despite how much they insist that Sam and Bucky keep bickering with and snapping at each other, they also show little moments where Sam checks in with Bucky, “You okay?”, “You good?”. The show is also doing wonders for Sam’s character.
Also the fact that the way that Walker convinces Bucky to let him go interrupt Sam and Karli’s conversation is by appealing to Bucky’s desire not to be responsible for Sam getting hurt.
He’s such a cypher in Winter Soldier and Civil War. It’s by design, of course. But getting to see him as an actual character again is a joy.
People gave Stan so much shit, but the man’s an excellent actor.Like, the fact that the light has gone out of his eyes in WS and CW relative to TFA isn’t a “wooden performance” – it’s a *conscious choice.*
That’s funny that you pointed out the similarity to the shadow broker name because one of my thoughts while watching was “they definitely had to use power broker because shadow broker is already taken, right?” It would be pretty cool to see Sharon take on that role in a similar was to Liara.
Power Broker’s been around since the 80’s.
In the comics, the Power Broker is a company that gives people a kind of variant on the super-soldier procedure; as I remember, it wasn’t complete like what Steve Rogers got, so there’d be side effects on the recipients.
Is William Hurt confirmed to make an appearance?
I haven’t heard anything, but I hadn’t heard anything about Don Cheadle either, so if he is, they could be keeping it under wraps.
I really hope so. Looking like a Red Hulk intro might be my best shot at a Ruffalo Hulk movie.
Who’s to say that Sharon isn’t already the Power Broker…well, maybe not.
Zemo during the Dora Milaje fight.
a man most would call a villain sees the serum and starts destroying it
because he knows it’s dangerous; a man most would call a hero sees the
serum and pockets some for his own.
Great point, and this was an excellent beat because both decisions are understandable- surprising, even, in Zemo’s case (a man so boss, he knows when it comes to super serums, he’s fine as is!)
The best episode yet for me, it felt legitimately like film quality – and quite a surprise that the writer from this episode was the same as the last, considering the tonal differences. As soon as the last half kicked in, the tension didn’t break, and that last scene with John Walker was such a momentous “oh shit” moment, even though you could telegraph it happening a mile away. Great acting across the board also, both Stan and Russell acting their butts off respectively.
Side question – all this time watching the MCU, I had never realised Bucky also took a variation of the super soldier serum until this show. Was that established in the Cap movies and I missed it? All this time I thought the only thing ‘super’ about him was his cyborg arm.
I’m still not clear on the timeline of Bucky and the serum myself. I think it was given to him when his unit was capture and experimented on by Armin Zola. And that’s why he survived the fall. But then, I don’t quite know at what point it acts as a kind of catalyst for him. Did they supplement it with something in the process of turning him into the Winter Soldier?
Yeah, Bucky would have received a variant of the Red Skull formula.
Red Skull was the first, so it tracks that they would experiment. Then Paper Clip then Isaiah.
Even seeing the heel turn coming. I don’t think I expected something that raw until he actually had the guy cornered.I thought for sure *someone* was going to stop him. As that’s usually what happens in those moments.
That someone probably would have been Lamar; he always seemed to be the one to calm Walker down in these situations. Without Lamar, there’s nothing holding him back now.
Yeah, even when you can guess beat-for-beat what’s going to happen (Walker busting in when Sam was getting through to Karli, Walker taking the serum, Lemar dying, Walker losing it) it doesn’t matter if it is well-executed, and, here, it absolutely was.
I honestly thought Lemar would die, then John would take the serum. I am actually glad they did not go that route.
I’m also glad then didn’t show him taking it. The slow realization – seeing the shield embedded in concrete, kicking that dude way too far, and then finally bending metal – was great.
In Captain America: The First Avenger, Steve goes rogue after the 107th, Bucky’s regiment, is captured by Hydra. After freeing the prisoners, he searches for Bucky and finds him strapped to an operating table in this lab:This was where he was given Zola’s recreation of Erskine’s serum and how was able to survive the fall from the train.
Ah cheers!
That image of a scowling Walker holding a blood-stained shield was superb.
I don’t think the Gov’t will care that Walker killed that guy, I think they will care that he did it so brutally, and more important, so publicly. The question is, if they do come calling for the shield, will he give it up?
He wouldn’t, but they won’t. Sam’s going to have to pry it from his cold dead hands.
Well, unless he loses his mind entirely, Walker is still a soldier and perceives himself as one, with a lot of his power coming from his resources as soldier. So if ordered to surrender the shield by the authority he answers to, he would comply, otherwise he would have to consciously go rogue, the way Steve Rogers did in Civil War, but without Steve Rogers’ motivations to justify the choice.
I feel like he’s already gone rogue. He murdered that guy instead of apprehending him for questioning.
That was in the spur of the moment. I meant going rogue as a conscious decision to forgo the support of the US of A and become an independent agent working on his own, probably hunted by the authorities. Either he does that, or he still obeys his superiors in the US military.
Like a US Agent, perhaps?
Yup, this has the makings of a PR nightmare more than anything.
That is the question of the hour…the trailer showed Sam practicing with the shield at home, so presumably no one’s trying to get it back from him, so…how does he get it? Does the next episode start with the fight where they take it from him, and due to the PR disaster he’s let keep it? Does a bunch of other stuff happen and Walker have a deathbed realization and give it to him? Is, oh I dunno, Rhodey ordered to retrieve the shield?
I don’t know if I was supposed to think this, but there’s a little moment where Sam and Bucky are looking at Walker and the bloody shield, and I can hear them thinking “I do NOT want to be in the pictures of this that everyone around us is taking.”
That final shot of Walker with the bloody shield was *money.*Between that and his introductory wink, they’ve absolutely nailed his evolution from punchable prick to full on villain.
Yeah, I’m actually really surprised how well the actor was able to carry that transformation as I don’t personally think the script for it was that strong. This episode was, but the groundwork before this felt lacking. Yet the actor clearly had enough of knowledge of where it was heading to really make it work.
He showed a few moments, but this week nailed it. His little head twitches when he’s retrieving the Shield from the pillar were something else.Even the “They weren’t even super soldiers” delivery.
The scene where John and Lemar discuss the serum is also a great showcase for Russell. He looks tired and frustrated, and there’s a sense of tension just waiting to snap.
Wyatt has some of his parents’ chops.
And their features.
It’s crazy that Wyatt didn’t know a thing about the MCU, let alone the character, before taking on the job. All he watched was apparently Guardians 2 since his dad was in it.
That’s Wyatt Russell for ya
He’s not a villain. He’s the hero of the peace and quite frankly, the arc of the MCU now that Wolverine and the rest of the Children of the Atom are coming down the turnpike in terms of morally ambiguous anti-heroes being the new face of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
I’m waiting for my West Coast Avengers movie.
The fuck are you talking about?
I am hoping the show follows the comics and keep him around. Seeing the Captain America costume in black would be money.
I feel like Walker’s fall is to set up an evil version of Captain America to be Sam (and Bucky’s) final boss.Fits with the origin story the MCU likes to tell.
That final shot of Walker with the bloody shield was *money.*I’m really curious whether that was adapted from an illustration in the comics or just created for the show. It felt so Watchmen.
Is it just me, or were there multiple shots with Walker that recreated scenes from the Captain America trilogy? Scenes of him bursting through doors, him raising the shield, even the last shot of the bloody shield feels like it’s a straight nod towards that scene in Civil War where Steve was about to drop his shield after Tony asked for it back.
Oh it was intentional. Cap had Tony dead to rights and Stark thought he was a goner before Steve smashed the reactor and threw down the shield.Walker did to that man what Tony thought was about to happen, and then picked the shield back up.Which, honestly, was the most striking part about that. Walker kills that man, then looks around and puts the blood-stained shield back on as if to say “Fuck you this is me.”
That scene was gutting. I’m was past the age to get wrapped up in superheroes, but seeing blood on Steve Rogers’ shield made me hide my weeping in front of my children.
My son watched WandaVision and I was okay with that. But he asked about this one and I was like “No.”He’s not old enough for the violence in this one, and I’m not sure he’s old enough to seperate the two Captains in his mind. He still sees the costume moreso the man inside.
I feel you, my kids are teens. But luckily for them, I guess, they don’t have enough life under them yet to put the emotional weight into the symbolism.
They should have kept me to WandaVison.
My bigger concern is my son doesn’t know the difference between Steve Rogers and John Walker.So he’d either think this is the same Cap and what he did was okay, or he’d see it as Cap being a bad guy now overall.
That part, yeah. But I mean other scenes, too, including the literal last shot of him from the low angle. I haven’t checked, but I’m pretty sure it’s the exact same angle of the shot where Steve was letting go of the shield in CW, before walking away from Tony.
Two great money shot cliffhangers. I could imagine John holding the bloody shield as the cover of the next issue.
The expression on Walker’s face at that moment was perfect. He made a choice as a soldier. While the death of his friend was pushed him there soldiers are trained to kill the enemy in a combat situation. Walker took the shield back, thought for a moment, and decided “I’m a warrior, I battle, people die, no remorse.” The thing that makes him a great soldier makes him a terrible Captain America. Roger’s physical strength came from the serum, but Captain America came from Steve Rogers.
That shield is certainly tainted now. Maybe Sam and Karli will get their shared dream after all.
Enjoyed this episode and considered a vast improvement of the previous, as small of a hurdle as that is. It was still really dumb a lot of the time, but in a way that wasn’t distracting and it had those character moments that allowed just being in that moment in the screen. Although I will admit I was a bit amused how non-chalant everyone was about the deadline Dora Milaje set for them. On a more positive side, that final shot of blood dripping from the shield was brilliant.
This episode, though, made Karli bombing that building in the last episode somehow even more baffling as it didn’t feel like a lot of the dialogue fit that having taken place. Even if it was briefly mentioned, it created this disjointed feeling as there’s not a lot more you can escalate from that and it doesn’t seem fitting for Sam to be having emphatetic chit chat with a person who just committed a massive war crime in cold blood. It also made the final fight even more baffling as the Flag Smashers seemed oddly shocked to have accidentally killed the wrong peson.The following just a personal theory, but I think they originally the scripts with Karli doing something much less drastic at the warehouse. However, they became worried that Karli was too sympathetic a figure they just threw that in at the end and made minor changes in the following scripts.
Yeah this was an improvement but there’s still too much dumb writing, baffling storytelling lapses, and poor directing to really redeem this show from being a disappointment. A few examples:1. Sam was going in alone to talk to Karli. Then what? What was his plan?2. Speaking of Karli, I had to reread the review just to recall her name. She’s more speechifying device than human. After 4 episodes, what, exactly, are the Flag-Smashers trying to achieve again? Trying to secure more humanitarian aid to displaced people by—(checks notes)— blowing up warehouses of UN workers? If this show could just give me one specific political goal/target… but it’s completely incoherent. And therefore boooring3. Walker of course has to interrupt this peaceful attempt at deescalation with Karli because grr! Reasons!3. Why on earth do we NOT get a flashback to this traumatic Afghanistan incident that molded Walker and Hoskins? SO MUCH of this show is characters telling and not showing—- it’s completely numbing. This show wastes a ridiculous amount of time on goofy stuff like Madripoor when it should be building its characters. 4. So, the Dora Milaje were just going to spear everyone to death? The fuck????5. I don’t know what show the reviewer is watching, but theee action scenes are B- at best. 6. Daniel Bruhl, at least, is obviously having fun.
1. Bucky, Walker, and Lamar come in. 2. Walker’s petulance, lack of stoicism and lack of patience has been part of his character from the beginning. 3. It’s not Walker’s story. That, and there are still two episodes left to possible show that. 4. …yes. They do what they want. 5. I don’t know what show you are watching, but the action has been fantastic thus far. 6. This we agree on.
Hey Negative Nelly: First of all, SIX EPISODES for all this—I think they are doing a good job of balancing multiple storylines while staying tied to the Universe. I don’t need to see some flashback story in Afghanistan, because it is a time waster, would be the usual terrible war story we’ve seen before AND I want the narrative to move forward. Quibble about character motivations? Hey just like real life people don’t always follow the line or thought or actions you think they should follow. The unpredictability makes it interesting. The battle sequences are pretty decent especially for a TV show, and as usual for Marvel, they build to a big finish—start low and finish high/big/loud. I do agree about Bruhl, but I like his energy and presence in everything he’s done. And easy fix for you? If you hate it so much, don’t watch.
Isn’t that the case with most MCU content?
Not at all. This is show is supposed to be a continuation of Winter Soldier, which is perhaps Marvel’s most emotionally satisfying movie and a stone-cold action classic.
This is show is supposed to be a continuation of Winter SoldierIt’s a continuation of the entire Cap trilogy, Infinity War/Endgame, and Black Panther.
After 4 episodes, what, exactly, are the Flag-Smashers trying to achieve again?So much this. The politics and objectives of the Flag-Smashers keep being confusing. What exactly are their demands? They’re said to have worldwide reach, but we only see a handful of guerrilla fighters moving from country to country and planting bombs once in a while. What is that supposed to accomplish?I was a child in the 70s when Italy was plagued by terrorism, but the Red Brigades had the explicit goal of destabilizing the government. That’s one country’s government. Something like this doesn’t really scale to worldwide, because there’s not a central world government, and even if there was, it’d be too big to destabilize by actions on this scale.I also still don’t get the borders thing: after the Snap, people freely moved into other countries? This means entire territories were abandoned? Entire countries, even? I get that’s a sudden halving of the world population has to be apocalyptic (too much for them to properly portray), but the way it’s described seems really simplistic.
I rewatched episode 2 last night (because I didn’t really like it at first & wanted to see if I was right or if it was better than I remembered). It’s better insofar as any TV show’s rough edges get smoothed out after multiple rewatches. The scene where we – as audience – are supposed to get what The Flag Smashers are all about – is the scene where they take refuge with the group of friendlies and the guy who offers them chicken gizzard pate and crackers. They recommit to the cause there in that scene. The scene doesn’t communicate all it should have tbh. Partly it reads like the show writers are being overly careful to assert what went down during the Blip. Maybe they were told from on high not to contradict WV and Spiderman and all other future projects that rely on the Blip as their starting point. (It’ll be odd if Venom or Deadpool has to address this, for example.) After the Blip, yes it makes sense that world governments would put everything on hold for 8 months or a year. If Putin blipped out, wouldn’t all of Russia be like, “Oh, thank Christ.” When he blipped back, what would stop the nearest person from grabbing a pistol and finishing him? Maybe there were a few years where the EU was totally really the EU. Also, intriguingly, if after half of Africa blipped – only a year or less after Wakanda revealed itself in all its glory, wouldn’t it stand to reason that the continent might make Wakanda its collective capitol? So what needed to happen is Feige and the MCU brain-trust should have had a writer’s conference where the entire history of the Blip was hashed out (and maybe they did – maybe they still will) to a degree of detail that the writers of Falcon could be really specific about what the Flag Smashers want. It’s getting microcosmically more clear as each episode goes on, but that’s a rough-go for viewers who need the primary show antagonist to have a motivation. If half the world is in poverty because all their assets and property have been redistributed, and The Flag Smashers are against them, then they’re jerks. If they are trying to win over The Returned to their cause by saying “Hey, while you guys were gone, things got way better – y’all need to trust us and try to hold to this model of society,” then okay … it’s a nuanced point the show hasn’t made yet. And they haven’t made it either due to the info not being readily available within their own MCU bible, or because they think it’ll be boring for an action show audience, or they’re trying too hard to stay within their own lane.
Yeah, the plight of the displaced is something that makes sense on paper, and a really interesting idea to explore within the post-snap world. But the show does a terrible job of illustrating it. Just give us ONE SCENE, in the first episode, showing us a case study of a displaced person being pushed out of their job/home and the frustration of being at the mercy of the GRC bureaucracy. Otherwise, it’s just a bunch of people spouting dialogue about fake-world problems. And so much of the show is…that.
What notes are you checking? Because they seem to be about stealing supplies, including food and medicine, and taking money from the rich to give to the poor. The group is generally aiming at refugee Robin Hood. It’s their leader who has become embittered, who wants to hurt those she sees as responsible for all the suffering.The show should still be clearer, except that it can’t be without making obvious the connection between the Power Broker and the GRC (which is pretty clearly NOT the UN).
#4 – I did not get that. They were using their spears as pikes. If they wanted to, they could have run through the whole lot. They wanted to bring Zemo back to Wakanda.
here’s a good metric: the Flag Smasher of the comics is KARL Morgenthau. She’s Karli. Leader of the Flag Smashers. Boom boom shake the room say whaaaaaaaat
Disagree with your second third point (you used the number 3 twice btw). A flashback would have been unnecessary at that moment (though it could still come later). Seeing how it affects them in the present by their demeanor as they talk about it was more effective for me. Also it’s not really telling, because the conversation itself is the narrative action at that point. If someone else told another character about Walkers experience then that would fall more into that category. But to be fair, the whole telling versus showing thing in narrative is not nearly as straightforward as the phrase itself makes it sound.
what, exactly, are the Flag-Smashers trying to achieve again?Very reminiscent of today’s activists on both sides. On one side you’ve got people at a protest against purported police brutality shouting about ending capitalism, espousing trans rights, and yelling about the environment. On the other side, who the hell even knows. Election fraud, child molesters hiding in pizza joints…
Did she commit a war crime? The only people she killed were people that are effectively at war with her and the people she protects due to their withholding supplies and forcing people out of their homes and the countries they live in. From her perspective, the GRC are behaving like authoritarian criminals. Also, I’d guess that the reason she’s so shocked to have killed Lamar is that she had to see his face, and recognize what she’d done in a way she could avoid in the case of the building.
That’s why Sam makes the point that she can’t just behave violently and homicidally and expect things to be better, no matter the cause. He’s asking her to be better than the people she’s fighting; people like John Walker, who murders someone as they try desperately to surrender.
I don’t even know how to respond to this, considering it starts by questioning if blowing up a bunch of helpless hostages you yourself tied up is really a war crime.
Okay, maybe it was a war crime. I guess I didn’t really remember all the details of what happened in that part of last week’s episode. My point is more that Karli and the rest of the displaced people have literally been made homeless, had food and supplies withheld from them, and been subjected to abuses of their human rights by the organization that the Flag Smashers are fighting against. People who have done nothing wrong other than try to survive during the blip. So Karli’s actions are wrong, obviously; but killing the people responsible is a morally complicated action, which is something that Sam understands.I agree that it would make more sense plot-wise if she’d done something less extreme in the first place for the purpose of Sam empathizing with her.
But the fact that you didn’t remember what Karli did reflects how much it doesn’t fit with happens in this episode as none of the characters really behave like she just committed cold blooded mass murder. It’s what makes the bombing of that building feel so odd.
They’re hardly the people responsible, the people she killed. The victims weren’t people high up, they weren’t decision makers. They were just workers. It’s like wanting to get back at hedge fund bankers by blowing up a branch of your local high street bank.
Well, it’s also like attacking a colonial outpost to get back at the colonizing force. Not moral imo, but I can see why someone might resort to it.
Not really. This wasn’t a colonial force. This is an organisation that was set up to help displaced people. Now, they aren’t doing a great job, but its more accurately like bombing front line UN workers, because the decision makers have been a bit slow.
It hasn’t been totally clear who exactly is responsible for what, but the impression that I got is that the GRC is at least partially responsible for Karli and the other displaced people’s homelessness, as they seem to be prioritizing people who were returned over people who remained during the Blip. The bit of their advertisement that we saw in a previous episode emphasized helping people “get back to the way things were” and “helping you get back into your homes”. And it’s clearly not just “decision makers have been a bit slow,” there’s a massive humanitarian crisis going on.
This episode literally has a new report on the radio describing the GRC people killed in the bombing, and that one of them had just started working there a few days ago. The bombing victims are just people trying to do good things – they have nothing to do with the high-level decisions made by the GRC.
This may sound like a quibble, but is it a war crime or just a regular crime? The Flag Smashers are not a recognised military force, and there’s been no formal declaration of war between two powers. Karli may see this as a war, but in the eyes of the law she’s just a criminal.
Killing prisoners (i.e. people you’ve tied up and left in a specific place) is absolutely a war crime.
I think you can only be a war criminal if you’re part of a formal uniformed army (or in the civilian leadership thereof). Acts like this would more likely be deemed terrorism… or freedom fighting if they end up winning.
that final shot of blood dripping from the shield was brilliant.Looked like a comic book cover. Karli bombing that building in the last episode somehow even more baffling as it didn’t feel like a lot of the dialogue fit that having taken place.Her right-hand guy last episode seemed shocked about the bombing, as if it was something Karli engineered on her own without consulting him, but then this episode he basically excused the whole thing as Karli being a hero who doesn’t have the luxury of not getting her hands dirty. I mean, sure, he could have rationalized the incident in between episodes, but then there was no reason to write his initial reaction that way to begin with, if it was going to be immediately taken back. the Flag Smashers seemed oddly shocked to have accidentally killed the wrong person.I guess they wanted to kill the symbol, not his random sidekick. It was way too much evident that this outcome was caused by the fact that Walker can’t die yet. Plot armor is stronger than vibranium!
To be clear, the Flag Smasher who was killed in this episode who told Karli that he thought she was a hero is a different barely developed side character from the Flag Smasher who was distressed by Karli’s bombing in the previous episode.
I think she actually wants to kill Steve, one of the people responsible for bringing half of humanity back, and Walker is as close as she can get. I think if, or as soon as, Sam realizes that, any attempts at empathy will end in a hurry.
Do you think we’ll see Old Cap? It’s strange actually how every discussion about him in the show is treated as if he was dead.
I don’t think so. I think that Sam and Bucky told the world he was dead to give him privacy. But, you’re right, they should be talking to him on the phone, and Sam should have at least told him he was giving away the shield.
I agree the Karli thing – the issue with her bombing a building – feels more like a writerly or “second draft” retcon (otherwise she becomes too good of a good guy). It felt more out of place before, but Zemo’s monologue about the serum causing “Superior” self-regard and thus fascistic tendencies helps rescue that plot thread partly. The show maybe had difficulty sorting its scenes between the last couple episode breaks.
I think that “second draft” retcon vibe that seems to permeate quite a lot of this show is due to having to re-jig a lot of the story due to the whole Covid thing. The fact that nearly the entirety of this episode takes place in just two buildings and a couple of streets seems to prove this. There’s also a lot of ADR dialogue that feels like certain story elements were changed after filming.
I think a parallel is being drawn between Bucky and Karli. Zemo keeps droning on about how all super-soldiers are evil and can never change, but Bucky did. The serum can bring out the worst in someone and can leave them susceptible to manipulation by evil forces, but that can be controlled. Enter Sam, who knows how to teach people that self-control.
Karli did despicable things. Bucky did far more. He was redeemed. Karli can be, as well.
For me, the question now becomes, “Can John Walker be redeemed? Will he even want to be?”
So, I think the key difference — at least to Zemo — is Bucky is “pure” because he wasn’t a volunteer. This was something that happened to him, rather than something that he volunteered for.He’s hated Cap, the HYDRA Soldiers, and he’s outright called Karli a supremacist — but he doesn’t appear to have the same issues with Bucky, possibly both because he sees Bucky trying to rise above it and because he (in part) also did this to Bucky just as much as HYDRA did.
I might be forgetting but didn’t Bucky do terrible things because he was literally being brainwashed and controlled by Hydra? Karli doesn’t have that excuse, she’s been acting on her own accord.
It definitely wasn’t cold-blooded. Dude was piiiiiiiissed.
Well yeah, let’s be clear. She bombed that building because the show needed to make sure nobody wanted her to get away with this in the end, no matter how sympathetic or sensible she may seem at times. Her best end now is a last-minute heroic death saving our boys, but a death nonetheless, and that the audience clearly understands what being such a revolutionarying disorderer gets you. She was such an astute, empathetic girl; if only she wasn’t so idealistic and immature, etc.
That’s a generous grade. The new Cap turned evil WAY too quickly…guess subtlety wasn’t in their wheelhouse, which has been a big problem throughout the show so far.
They’ve done a pretty good job of showing that Walker is (at the very least) hotheaded and impulsive and every other episode has someone saying something like “the serum doesn’t just affect you physically, it effects you as a person and heightens who you are… the good attributes and the bad attributes” so the setup was there.
Not just the show, but Dr. Erskine outright says it in the first Captain America movie. Good people become great, bad people become worse.
Six episodes doesn’t leave a lot of wiggle room.Also, seeing your partner/friend get murdered coupled with super max steroids coursing through your veins might not be a great combination for keeping your cool.
That really doesn’t make him evil. And I’m guessing you’ve never seen anybody with PTSD blow up before.
Unfort there are some that wouldn’t see Walker as “evil.” See the Kenosha shooter. (Would be bold if they had Fox news defend Walker in the next ep)
Walker’s not evil. He’s a heavily flawed anti-hero.
I’m not even sure he’s an anti-hero. Flawed, beyond doubt, but he’s genuinely trying to do the right thing (serum-induced rage-murder aside).
When did he turn evil? He wants to bring down the Flag Smashers. He sees the serum as a way to do that and to really become what he thinks Captain America is. They kill his best friend, and in anger (and possibly a serum side effect) he loses it with a lot of strength he is not used to. He feels justified, because these are terrorists to him. Have you been paying attention to the soldiers who were convicted of crimes in Iraq and Afghanistan (usually by similar reasoning) and pardoned later? I don’t know if I would call them evil. Dangerous. Law breaking. No regard for military orders. All yes. But evil? I do not think so.
Yeah, those poor boys at Haditha were just overcome with emotion and trying to get the job done when they murdered elderly folks and children and then tried to blame it on the Jaysh. . .
Yeah probably a good thing they’re not also reviewing Invincible cause as you’d need a couple of letter grades to demonstrate the difference between these two episodes that came out today.
Sure the ending shot was nicely shocking, but on the other hand Battle Beast and doing Luke Cage better in 45 minutes than that show managed in seasons.
Thank you for sharing your own health-related experiences this week, Sulagna; that perspective does add a whole other dimension to talking about the serum not just as a plot device.
Not being able to rely on your health consistently changes your
personality. You become grateful for things other people take for
granted. I felt that.
Same here. I actually had COVID early last year; the memory of struggling to maintain my breath will stay with me forever. (I’ve technically recovered, but I’m still leery of potential after-effects.)
Its weird, as a child I was highly asthmatic, had pneumonia all the time, but it still didn’t prepare me mentally for how bad it got with my COVID effects. Glad you’re doing better, I’m almost a full year out from my infection and I’m still suffering more than a few effects. Make sure you have a doctor checking up on your cardiology, the myocarditis (heart inflammation) has been the worst thing I’ve dealt with all year (well maybe second worst compared to the literal brain damage I took from lack of oxygen) and it keeps coming back when it seems to get better. A lot of COVID people have been getting it asymptomatically too, so you have no strange sensations at all to let you know something is wrong with your heart, and then too much strain on it just shuts it down.
There’s been some stories that the vaccine actually helps some people with Long Covid.
My partner found out they had asthma a year or so ago. After using an inhaler for the first time, they said, “Is this what breathing feels like for everyone else?”
Up until now, I didn’t have anything against John; he was just like every other new 2nd LT fresh out of the academy. Nothing will happen to him, though. “Captain America” killed a vaguely ethnic-looking terrorist. You really think the American government or people will care? A not-insignificant number of people will want to throw him a parade!Lastly, I liked that line in there about Zemo being sinister instead of creepy. I didn’t even realize that what they were doing but you’re right. Usually, a grown man talking to a little girl would give off “creeper” vibes, but he didn’t.
My goodness, that opening scene with Ayo and Bucky had me from the start. She’s so good! And him initially fighting back tears in fear of becoming the killing machine again only to realize he’s free and cry out of joy hit so well!Oh, and my favorite moment was this:Sam: We should do something.Bucky: …Looking strong, John!and Zemo is just drinking tea. That was such s great scene!
the opening scene was heartbreaking; beautiful acting, and another angle of insight into the damage done by what Bucky went through, from brainwashing to recovery.
Went back to watch that scene again, it still made me tear up flawlessly.
It was beautiful. I still can’t even go into a thorough enough explanation of why it was so gripping for everyone to watch.
In less than five minutes, they told an entire story of personal triumph over pain, a pain we all felt, some unfortunately more than others. And we loved hearing that ending:
“You are free.”
You know what it made me think of? The EMDR scene in Russian Doll. https://avidly.lareviewofbooks.org/2019/07/16/russian-dolls-brain/
That opening scene really got to me. They crushed it.
Seeing that deprogramming scene with Bucky was so satisfying. The want of that moment has launched tens of thousands of fanfics since 2014.
I love the enormous amounts of compassion the Wakandas have shown for Bucky. We see it in the post-credits for Civil War from T’Challa, and then again after Black Panther with Shuri.(Side note: I wouldn’t be sad to have more Bucky-Shuri interactions in the future.)
If the MCU follows the comics, she would be the next Black Panther, so very likely!
It’s doubtful they’d let Shuri take much of a center stage considering her recent coming out as an anti vaxx and a religious nutjob (I don’t use the term liberally but there’s no better way to describe some of the stuff she said online).
We will see. They did give Carino a few chances to reel it in before they cut her loose, and she was on track for her own series.
I was also really sold on the Wakandans’ genuine feelings of betrayal that Bucky would work with Zemo. They did so much to help Bucky reclaim his past identity (despite not really having any selfish motivation to do it), they didn’t try to hold him accountable for the things he did under HYDRA’s control, they even gave him a new arm, and he turns around and hops into bed with the guy who killed their king. The Wakandans were right to be mad at him!
It makes a ton of sense to me why Wakandans might be like that, too.Wakanda is a nation that was never colonized by white people, never succumbed to the Imperial war machine of slavery and conquest. Killmonger’s agenda in BP was for Wakanda to take that perspective and throw it back at the world. To de-colonize it, to use Wakanda’s power to push against the tide of Euro-centric racism that has defined the last few centuries of world history. Of course, his methods were themselves conquest, the playbook of the oppressors, so you’re meant to see it as compromised.But Ayo’s willingness to help Bucky speaks to the idea on a human level. If you view HYDRA as the superlative form of white Imperial chauvinism – literally super-Nazis, whose agenda is world domination and supremacy – then Bucky’s deprogramming is an act of historical redemption. It’s exorcising the kind of toxic beliefs that not only hurt the world, but hurt Bucky as a person as long as he carries them. The Winter Soldier and his uncritical, unconscious violence is thus re-contextualized as the whole of Imperial atrocity committed against the world, and the assumption by many white people that this reality is fair or right or natural. Bucky cries because that’s never what he wanted to stand for, and was never what he truly believed.
I was going to say this myself. It’s not new or necessary information, but it was still great to see Bucky so vulnerable and happy. Sebastian Stan is so good and I hope more people will appreciate him and this character.
“Looking strong, John!” was my favourite part of the episode. Sebastian Stan just nails that delivery.
The entire plot of the original Captain America movie was the creator of the serum picked Steve Rodgers for precisely all the reason listed in this review. This is not some revelation.
I don’t think the reviewer suggested that it was a revelation? Just pointing out the effect of Rogers’ disabilities on the character and contrasting that from Walker.
I think Timmyreev is saying that we already understand why Steve was picked because the MCU was very clear on that already.
Yes but the reviewer is not suggesting that it wasn’t clear either. She’s mentioning it to give context as to why there hasn’t been another Steve Rogers (as said by Zemo in this episode) and her reasoning is that the unique circumstances of Steve has not been repeated since.
As Erskine said, Steve Rogers was a weak man who knew the value of strength and compassion. With Walker, we see what would have happened if the U.S. chose a “perfect soldier” as their first test subject.The fight with the Dora did a great job showing how so in over his head Walker was taking on the mantle of Cap. I’m also really enjoying Henry Jackman’s use of musical continuity. His themes from Winter Soldier and Civil War, plus the themes from Black Panther, all just *chef’s kiss*.
BTW, that slick as hell move by them pinning him without hurting him with their spear spoke in volumes!
“I’m not hurting you, but I’m going to make you feel weak before us.”
*shield flip*
It was a clear and awesome “Enemies get killed; you’re an obstruction” move.
I feel like everyone from Wakanda could also do that shield flip. Like Shuri could also bust out with the flip and say something like: “Oh, this? It’s a kid’s game we used to do for bubble gum.”
I do think they missed an opportunity with Walker and Lemar. Instead of just generic, “Afghanistan” hand-waving, I’d like to have seen a bit more specifics – maybe that’s coming.But I really thought the Medals of Honor would have been for stuff post-Snap/pre-Return. The conflicts there would have been harrowing and it would have given a nice contrast to Bucky and Sam, who after all, weren’t there to clean up the mess after the Snap.Nice review, but I do think you undersell just how one-of-a-kind Rogers was. What you say about a person with ailments being empathetic is entirely possible, but compassion isn’t always the outcome you get either. The trope of the “Revenge of the Bullied” monster does have a speck of truth to it.As for Bucky, I just don’t know if you can say pre-war Bucky had much to do with how Winter Soldier with Serum turned out. The programming was overriding everything.
I do get your frustration with Karli blowing up the building, but the die is cast now. Just as Walker is now a murderer of a helpless prisoner, Karli is a murderer of people who only tangentially were enemies of her cause. And most sympathies I had for Karli were lost for me when she coldly manipulated Sarah and then said, “Yeah, there’s no gain for me to kill you” to Sam.
I know we are supposed to sympathize with her motives, at least, but I find Karli and her *terrible* moral reasoning infuriating. On the other hand, I really appreciate what they’ve done with Walker — his realization that he’s in over his head, that those medals he got weren’t about honor; making it clear that he himself does not see himself as some sort of moral pinnacle is more interesting than a more typical “I’m the best and I deserve the shield and the serum.”
I guess the question I’d like to see put to her is, “Were we just supposed to let them all stay dead?”And really, that’s a question that needs to be put to the MCU.Because that’s the other side to the horror stories of people coming back to finding spouses remarried, jobs replaced, houses torn down or sold to someone else, etc…There are also going to be people who are overjoyed to see their loved ones return. Just as there are spouses who remarried, there will be some who couldn’t move on and are now happy.
And remember, Thanos did this EVERYWHERE. Danvers hints at it in Endgame that some planets didn’t deal with it as well and needed her help more. Those planets probably would be OK with the status quo returning.At some point, the MCU needs to start making us believe Hulk did a good thing by snapping those fingers and that Natasha didn’t die for a bad cause.
It does seem like they’ve spent a lot more time emphasizing things aren’t happy-shiny post-Blip (still hate that name) that it’s almost tilted too far that way. It needed to be said/shown, but you’re right that the opposite is also true.
IDK, have you seen people this past year? Humanity does not do well with change. The Blip would be bad. Just as folks are getting used to “the new normal,” the Blip is reversed. Suddenly, the population that people had become accustomed to has doubled. When COVID initially left the streets and freeways less crowded, there were more accidents and deaths on the highways. I think the show tracks in that way. People are not great as a whole, but individuals can rise to the occasion.
I think I’m confused as to what point you’re making? I was just agreeing with the commenter that the MCU has spent a lot of time focusing on the post-Blip fallout, and deservedly so, but I also that I saw their point that by focusing so much on the fallout, it almost makes the Avengers seem like villains for bringing everyone back.
This is a great point. I wish they’d give us at least a few nuggets of joy.
Like, the guy talking to Cap in Endgame about re-entering the dating pool after his husband got snapped? Couldn’t we check in on him?
Id agree with you but we don’t need to see a Russo brother in this one too
I posted about this up the line a ways. Here’s a pitch for a cheap and easy moneymaker for the MCU: Do a mockumentary about the Blip as though it was done by Ken Burns. WV, Falcon, and Far From Home are nibbling around the edges. Clear some of this stuff up. Clear up the canon. It could be almost like a clip show! Everyone groans at a clip show, of course, but they might have fun with the format. Clips can be original or from outtakes. Marvel would make a half a billion $ on a budget of about $80 mil.
I suspect no one has really wanted to tackle it. Off-and-on, I’ve tried to picture it in my head and I just can’t get there.
I’ve said this before. They go from half the world disappearing in an instant to holding high school girls’ basketball games five years later. It’s miraculous.
In Endgame, they have gas for Tony’s car, peanut butter and bread for Natasha’s sandwich, beer for Thor and little things like running water, electricity, wi-fi and somehow they haven’t blown each other up.My main question is how much did the surviving Avengers help and what did that look like?
Did Thor like actually help carry a few boxes of supplies to places that lost all their livestock or their able-bodied farmers before eating his way through Sweden, Norway and Finland? Did Banner and Stark use their brain power to keep the lights on before going off to meditate or live in the woods? Did Rhodey, Natasha and Cap help stop whatever crime/terrorism would have popped up?Where did Wakanda fit in? They lost their king AND his immediate heir in Shuri. I have to believe there was at least one faction there that was like, “So, we let all these colonizers in to help them, and next thing we know, our capital is trashed and half our people are gone! Let’s NOT do that again!”And again…why wasn’t some subcommittee somewhere like, “Um, wait a second. You could have stopped this all by deactivating a machine and destroying the stone and you DIDN’T??????”
Which leads to the question I still have after four episodes: what *specifically* do the Flag Smashers want? Adequate care, supplies, and opportunities? One world government? The elimination of the half of the population that came back? The show has not yet shown us what solutions the Flag Smashers think they have to offer, which makes it harder to understand if they are a group of people lashing out or if they have a real (practical or no) plan.
Yep – Walker’s defining characteristic is impostor syndrome.He’s desperate to be Captain America, because he finally gets to be “The Good Guy.”…but he’s never learned how.
Totally agree, especially since we’re living in a country where the bullied, frail, and outcasts have shown to do some horrific things, even with the slightest bit of power like a gun.
I think Walker could’ve gotten those Medals well before the snap. After all, the first Iron Man came out during our real world’s fighting in that country. And they likely had Stark tech to fight it with. Walker could have been the military’s sweat heart, until they thawed out Steve.
The notion that America would still be in Afghanistan in the world of the MCU after decades of time and several major world shaking events is either an incredibly cynical political statement… or it’s a very lazy and unimaginative writing choice.
If it takes until the 4th episode of a 6-episode series to establish a form, I’d wager you’d still be correct that it doesn’t actually have one.
Bucky and the Bruce Banner of The Incredible Hulk come to mindTo be fair: Hulk says ACAB…
A stronger episode, but I had trouble taking Clé Bennett’s Lemar Hoskins seriously as I kept flashing back to The Tick’s Sage
Putting the events of the episode aside- I gotta tell you, this review is really beautifully written. Contrasting Steve, John and Bucky and adding that empathetic personal touch- top notch writing.Also- it’s beyond me how some people simply dislike John for not being Steve instead of seeing him as an (independent) extremely tragic figure. They are doing great work with this character.
Agreed! I’ve always appreciated how AV Club reviews are more than simple recaps of episodes, but describe what the episode meant for the writer personally. This was a great example of that.
I feel like the standards of the AV Club TV reviews have dipped a little in the last few years, but Sulagna is really living up to the old school level. The reviews for this show remind me of the kind of deep analysis that the Club brought to ‘Mad Men’ and the classic ‘Simpsons’ reviews.
Most characters aren’t Steve and I still like them. I like Walker as a character, but I dislike him because he’s a douche. The show’s giving us plenty of valid reasons to dislike him and none of it is tragic for John, it’s tragic for Sam, Bucky, Rhodey, and, well, America. John Walker is where he is the way he is entirely for his personal choices and beliefs. He wasn’t given any impossible choices, at least as far as we know, he was given every opportunity and rewarded for every choice, so he feels entitled in spite of his implied war crimes. I’m open for him to come around, but he’s not giving me much.
I hear you. I meant tragic figure in the way of Shakespeare- “great man”, believes himself a hero, is seen as a hero but has a fatal flaw that leads to his eventual downfall.
Gonna be shocked if Power Broker is anyone other than Sharon. She keeps knowing exactly what they’re thinking, and if Broker actually wants the serum, it ain’t Zemo.He had a chance to obtain it and has personally destroyed every opportunity.Only question now is who nabbed one last vial for Sam to take next week? He wouldn’t take it if offered, but what if his family was at stake and he had no choice to stop Kari/Walker?
Zemo stomping on all the vials was great. There was that brief moment where it seemed like he was considering taking it himself but then nope. Smash.
I knew he was going to smash them. He’s a liar about a lot of things, but his distaste for it wasn’t one of them.
It read to me more that he was briefly having the means-ends debate with himself. Never doubted his distaste for super soldiers.
Well, hold on though…what has he actually lied about?
He is very manipulating of events and holds leverage, but i find him lacking in dishonesty (he said he had a safehouse, he didn’t say that it didn’t come equipped with an escape hatch, that’s on the boys for not checking).
I find that to be a hallmark of Marvel’s best villains, they don’t need to lie when their intelligence is so superior.
Well, his whole thing in Civil War was framing Bucky for murder and then pretending to be a therapist in order to take control of Bucky’s Winter Soldier protocols.And in this episode he lied to the little girl to get information and then about Sam and Bucky.
Now hold on there as well, deception is still not a hard lie.
Does Batman announce himself when he’s bursting through the shadows and says in that raspy voice: “Hey, Batman here!”
And he told the girl exactly what they wanted to hear, that the two Avengers they already didn’t trust were bad men to them.
Now if he had poisoned the candy, that’s lying.
He told the girl that he was a friend of the dead lady, though.And I think Batman is a classic example of a dude who lies a lot!
Then we have come full circle on the argument, if Zemo is comparable to the feats of Batman.
Thank you, daughter. Perhaps I treated you too harshly–
It was the right thing to do but I also knew he was going to miss one.
That wasn’t consideration of taking it himself – that was someone savouring the moment, knowing they’re about to achieve a goal and destroy their enemy.
You don’t think Sharon’s still working for Fury? Undercover like? I’ve been assuming either that Fury’s the Power Broker, or that he’s targeting the Power Broker and working via Sharon. After all, working in the shadows with super soldier serum for mysterious purposes sounds like Fury, or Fury-adjacent.
Is Nick Fury not very much out of the picture for the time being?
Given all the tea-making, I could see Zemo somehow slipping Sam the serum specifically *because* he said so firmly he wouldn’t take it, making him somehow deserving.
I’m guessing that Power Broker isn’t a person but a group, and Sharon is in thrall to them for some secret reason.
Considering the situation she’s in, and that she has all this info but isn’t dead yet, I’m assuming it’s either her or she’s high up within it.Because if the Broker is that powerful, she’s already wronged them a few times (including getting their scientist killed) and I doubt she’d be able to just lounge around at home.
Great review! One note, though: Banner didn’t take the Super-Soldier Serum in Incredible Hulk. Blonksy did.
Yep, a definite step up, and step forward, from last week’s episode. I like how Zemo’s murder of the scientist guy wasn’t forgotten by Sam, because that was a big complaint of mine last week.
I really admire how smart the show is being with its politics. Everybody is right! Zemo fearing the rise of inevitably pro-eugenics übermenschen, Karli looking to destroy exploitative systems of imperialism and capitalism, Walker just trying to stop some murderers and terrorists … these antagonists didn’t need all this nuance, and yet here it is, and it’s very appreciated.
I agree about how Steve, and clearly Sam, are the heroes of their stories because they are idealists, diplomats and peacemakers inherently, rather than fighters first and foremost. Steve’s weakness and frailty absolutely informed his personality, which in turn made him uniquely suited. I don’t think the’s the only person who could ever be suited, as Zemo suggested. But we definitely know that so far, nobody else has had his unique collection of virtues, mercy and determination to fight injustice – the same things that made him worthy to lift Mjolnir. It does make me wonder if Sam is suggested to have that same combo.
I truly do appreciate complex, moral ambiguity in modern television over preachy, one-sided propaganda.
I hope we get to find out in the next team-up film that Sam can lift Mjolnir.(Except it only exists in the past. Dammit.)
Love & Thunder is, in part, telling the Jane FosThor story, so I’m betting Mjolnir is coming back.
Great episode. Very clever the way the used “the snap” as an allegory for BLM. Some of Sam’s dialogue was really poignant.
but with the Avengers no longer a team (would you call them disbanded?)
It was inevitable that John would have a breakdown from someone close to him being “Fridged” (in the comics it was his parents)
And speaking of which, I hope they 100% throw Sam under the bus for the point of redeeming John since (if F&WS is going to get a second season), it makes more sense to have Falcon coddling the Flag Smashers bite him in the ass and see him lose everything, with the bonus points of making Isaiah Bradly the villain of the season and Walker/Winter Soldier bringing Bradly to justice and nipping in the bud the whole Sam as Cap thing and keep him as Falcon. Bonus points; they can set up a S2 with Sam and Zemo going to Wakanda so Zemo can be made the new BP (since Zemo’s a lot more redeemable than freaking Killmonger, combined with the fact that there is a lot more interesting stuff to be had with Zemo getting a redemption arc as BP if you want to keep the BP franchise going).
And speaking of which, I hope they 100% throw Sam under the bus for the point of redeeming John since (if F&WS is going to get a second season), it makes more sense to have Falcon coddling the Flag Smashers bite him in the ass and see him lose everything, with the bonus points of making Isaiah Bradly the villain of the season and Walker/Winter Soldier bringing Bradly to justice and nipping in the bud the whole Sam as Cap thing and keep him as Falcon. Bonus points; they can set up a S2 with Sam and Zemo going to Wakanda so Zemo can be made the new BP (since Zemo’s a lot more redeemable than freaking Killmonger, combined with the fact that there is a lot more interesting stuff to be had with Zemo getting a redemption arc as BP if you want to keep the BP franchise going).
Don’t forget, it was his friends that betrayed his parents.And after that, those friends were next on his list.
Okay, so my reaction to that episode? FUCK. ME.So we can definitely say that Walker is a few packets short of a box of crisps. However, I don’t really see him being killed (as annoying as that sounds) but I do see him being completely and utterly humiliated by the end of the run. Watching the Dora Milaje repeatedly kick arse in this episode was delightful. Did anyone pick up on the rather humiliating exchange between Ayo, Captain Pug and yon Dora Milaje whose name I cannot remember? He’s been knocked to the ground – that’s bad. He’s been de-shielded – that’s bad. Then he sees the woman who has bestest him pick up the shield and then be ordered by her superior to hand it back to him – yikes. I wonder if he thought to himself “well, I’ll just fight her for it and win it back for myself” And his somewhat-dazed and disbelieving assertion that the Dora Milaje were not supersoldiers but “ordinary” like him and Not-Bucky – it was humiliation on humiliation for him and I was fucking living for it.Now, onto the little things…Karli’s reaction to being shot was interesting. She’s still a supersoldier, she’s still stronger and faster than anyone other than Bucky at this point, but she’s just had a slap-down courtesy of Zemo and a handgun. She’s just realised that she’s not invulnerable. Would that make her more dangerous? No, I don’t think it would. I’m hoping they show her become more cunning, more sleekit as we would say in my neck of the woods. And I personally think that would make her more of a threat to Captain Pug’s ability to keep breathing than Sam or Bucky. Something that Mr Biblioteca pointed out – the difference between Captain Pug and Karli is that Karli’s got the one thing he’s never going to have: other supersoldiers. In short, unless they really fuck up the last couple of episodes, Captain Pug’s fucked. Zemo and the little girl with the Turkish delight was a delightful little display of creepiness. Bucky’s “you’re doing great!” made me cackle. Still convinced that Sharon’s Power Broker. Unless they want to pull a major 180 and “What the fuck” and reveal it’s…Pepper Potts!
I love getting snark from Bucky. He’s gotten to show more personality in these four episodes than all of his post-TFA appearances combined.
Good call bringing up TFA; Bucky in that was charming, witty and confident. It’s understandable that he would lose some of those qualities after all the trauma he’s been through, but it’s nice to see them slowly come back.
I love that the writers find wee ways to sneak in a snarky line or a biting little comment here and there. It makes the dialogue sound that bit more realistic and yes, I would have said the same thing if I was Bucky standing there watching some pompous fuckwit-metaphor-for-post-911-America-getting-battered. Maybe done it more along the lines of Mother Madame Kris Jenner mind…
Just because someone is weak and bullied and later becomes powerful doesn’t mean he will be more empathetic to other people.In fact, it’s far more likely he will become the same kind of bully that was torturing him before, from all the years of pent up resentment of not being able to fight back.
Steve really was one in a million.
Exactly. That theory baffles me. I think that’s why most people become cops or politicians.
it’s far more likely he will become the same kind of bully that was torturing him beforeYeah, that’s a known psychological fact of human beings. It’s also been represented a ton of times in pop culture (e.g. The Incredibles).
Agree. Just take a look at people who were out of shape and become fit. They are often the most critical of people who are out of shape because they only see it as a flaw.
I was thinking the same thing. Erskine chose Steve because he had gotten to know his character intimately, not because he assumed a small, physically weak guy would automatically be well suited for super-soldier powers. One of the flaws in choosing Walker was that they assumed the medals and test scores were everything they needed to know about his character.
That’s also why Peggy fell in love with Steve and kept his pre-transformation photo on her desk. She had gotten to know who he was, even without accomplishments and rewards. Heck, it explains why Bucky was so loyal to his “loser” friend; he knew what a good and resolute person Steve was. Steve had no glory that he could point to, apart from his selflessness in throwing himself on that grenade — and Walker’s handlers made a sham of that.
Steve was chosen for the right reasons. John was chosen for obvious, but wrong, reasons.
That’s why the “grenade” scene and Steve’s talk with Erskine were so key in the first Captain America.
Though I think Walker has done the same.
This is literally the path that Peter Parker was on after getting powers, before Uncle Ben was killed.Peter was weak, bullied and ridiculed by his classmates. He gets powers, and his first idea isn’t to help people or become a hero. He decides to use his new powers to make money and become a TV star. All the while he is laughing at his classmates and thinking that he will “show all of them”.Up until Uncle Ben is killed, this is a villain origin story. It’s only by learning the hard lesson of “great power, great responsibility” that he becomes a hero.There’s even a What If where Peter stops the burglar after he robs the studio, so Uncle Ben never dies. Peter continues being a TV star. He tells May and Ben his secret, who are ashamed that he’s using his powers to make money instead of helping people, so he abandons them and goes to Hollywood to be a star. He destroys Jameson’s life when he reveals his secret identity. And he becomes the biggest villain of them all – a Hollywood douchebag.
Really. John Walker is now a literal avenger.
Revenger.
“but it’s interesting that Bucky was given court-mandated therapy while Walker was allowed to roam free, despite holding many heavy memories.”Uhh.. well, we could make an argument that it’s not too interesting considering Bucky was literally a brain-washed assassin for decades whereas Walker was a sanctioned United States soldier? :/ Also, is Bucky really considered an Avenger? He’s *affiliated* with the Avengers after the Infinity War, but…
He’s *affiliated* with the Avengers after the Infinity War, but…And he’s been affiliated for about five minutes. If anything, he spent more time as a supervillain. Yet they keep calling him and Sam “two Avengers”.
I’m guessing that everybody who fought in the final battle against Thanos Mk II, was considered (or retroactively made) an Avenger.
So every single character in the MCU is an Avenger now? 🙂
Haha, quite possibly.
Every single person even! “Joe Schmo with his amazing photocopying and printer troubleshooting abilities!”
Basically anyone who assembled when Cap told the Avengers to assemble in Endgame. And why not? It’s not like they’ve got put them all on payroll or anything.
I noticed that too, but I’m willing to give the in-show characters a pass. For them anyone who fought Thanos twice might be considered an Avenger – proper or honorary or just generally.
And we have no idea what the Avengers even is at this point, and probably won’t until we get more post-Endgame films. My best guess would be Rhodey and Carol holding down the fort, keeping tabs on the Guardians and everyone in all the different corners on Earth.
Also “holding heavy memories” is pretty vague. While I hope any soldier can get therapy if they need or want it (heck anybody if they need or want it), it doesn’t necessarily follow that Walker has the same sort of debilitating PTSD that Bucky has or that Walker has never had therapy. Of course, it’s also possible that he’s hid symptoms from his superiors, in the same way Bucky denies his nightmares during therapy.
I thought this episode was fantastic. Walker’s inferiority complex just ate him alive. I think what also sent him over the edge was not just his friend dying (in a truly brutal way), but that his friend died after intervening to save his life. Even with the serum, he was still in a position where someone else had to save him – and then died for it.Also, on this edition of casual racism: “Why don’t you just put those pointy sticks down?”
And his shield is made from Wakandan vibranium! Such disrespect.
“Inferiority complex” – yes, that’s it! He thought that the title and shield would make him Captain America, but he knows that isn’t so. Steve was a super soldier; John was not. Steve focused on defusing and rescue; John has a hot temper. The only joy John finds in his role is in being recognized and signing autographs, and that was something that Steve had put behind him.
His humiliation at the hands of the Dora Milaje was turning point. He would have eventually taken the serum, but that make the decision far easier for him. It goes to the casual racism; if he was going to be bested in battle, it would not be by them.
He was beaten by a buncha GIRLS from a SAVAGE country using POINTY STICKS. He wasn’t going to take that gracefully!
Yeah this was a really great episode. I honestly think it was one of the best Marvel things I’ve ever seen in any format. Just great storytelling and character development and acting with John Walker. They did such a great job showing that he wanted to take the serum, why he wanted to do so, and then showing how his personality was brought out by taking it and by the trauma of losing his best friend and partner leading to the incredibly striking comic book cover or splash page like image of Captain America with blood on the shield.
I’m a big Wyatt Russell fan (I first notice him in what could’ve been a nothing role in 22 Jump Street) and I was a little bit worried with the first couple episodes of him as John Walker because it didn’t seem like his type of character. But everything really came together in this episode. He did such a great job communicating the story beats with his acting and really made the character’s arc and seemingly quick transformation make a lot of sense, fully bringing home the tragedy of the situation.Lemar was really great too. Without a lot of dialogue he really conveyed why he’s Walker’s best friend/partner/hype man and you really understood their relationship. It was generally shocking when he died
Marvel is almost always at its best when it spends time developing its villains, which often comes down to writers’ priorities. The running gag that Marvel’s villains are most often kind of sad trombone is extra baffling since they’re almost universally portrayed by more than capable actors. The difference between underwhelming villains (Ronan, Killian, the Dark Elf, etc.) and fantastic ones (Killmonger, Thanos) has been the amount of time the story dedicated to developing those characters. I’m glad they’ve spent the time layering Walker’s character, and Wyatt Russell was a great casting decision.
I believe the scene with U.S. Agent was filmed during the few weeks they had post pandemic. I’m sure the events of the summer influenced the filming. Can not wait for next week. (Also stupid online fans are harassing or dunking on Wyatt Russell hard for this. I can see a some people dosed off when the concept of make believe and fiction were taught in school.)
When I heard about that truly heinous harassment of Wyatt Russell my reactions were, in order: 1. Wow, people are stupid;2. His character and basic premise are pulled directly from the comics, all you need is a cursory google – or, hey, instead of harassing someone online about something you have only seen part of, just be along for the ride!3. Also, this is classic villain stuff, dumdums.
I bet you half of those jerks who are going after Russell are also “all lives matter” folk.
This was an excellent review. Between the psychology of veterans and relating back to your own health struggles, you took a very personal and effective perspective point to view everything from and it was pretty fascinating to read, actually. I can definitely relate. I know exactly what it’s like to live around the edges of what your body decides it’s capable of on a sliding scale beyond your control. I would also take the serum in a heartbeat. It’s why whenever the “what superhero would you want to be” question comes up, I always answer Wolverine. People are always a little dubious, like, “I mean, he’s a pretty tortured character…”, which is true, but he can automatically heal his pancreas, which is just about the most miraculous superpower that I personally can imagine, sitting here with a broken ass pancreas as I happen to be. I wouldn’t even need the claws. Just having a full and working body would make me feel like an invincible superhero.Yeah, great review. Incisive, personal, and thought-provoking. Well played.
I’d like to compare Walker’s actions to WW’s actions in her opening scene in the Snyder cut.Both are over the top violent acts against bad guys made by augmented “heroes” dressed in the American colors. One clearly was made to celebrate and idolize the violence (complete with a little civilian girl looking in awe) and one was made to critique and demonize the violence (complete with civilians looking with shock and fear).This is what Snyder and his acolytes doesn’t get about good “gritty” storytelling.
Maybe I wasn’t paying attention.. what happened to Kara’s bangs between episode 1 and episode 2? Is that a phantom zone thing?
Karli says things like “If I killed you, it’d be meaningless” to Sam because to her, other people are symbols rather than people. And that’s spot-on why Sam gave up the shield. Because he saw it as making him into a symbol, and he didn’t want that. As a Black man who was a soldier first and an Avenger second, he’d have been very aware of the ways in which who he was got turned into what he represented, and it’s not only reasonable for him to resent that, it’s very reasonable for him to feel that he can’t support the weight of living up to the symbol.But underneath it all, it’s because he understands that people have to be seen as people, not symbols, and he couldn’t see a way for him to be Captain America without the symbol taking over.And the show is demonstrating to him all the parts of being Captain America that are built upon that same understanding: that what Captain America should represent is compassion, empathy, the capacity to fight but the willingness to listen. And it’s showing us that Sam’s the only one in this group who can get that work done.
“In fact, the way that the characters deify Steve as the only person to respond well to the serum feels remarkably unfounded.”Does it? I don’t dispute that there may be others who would react positively to it, but in the MCU, is there anybody who actually has come out of it as a better person? Or at least a better version of the person they already were.
Well I mean most of the people in the MCU are assholes…Maybe not Spider-man, or Black Panther, or Carol Danvers. And Peggy, if we’re including the non-Avengers. But I’m pretty sure that’s it?
Hawkeye seemed pretty chill too when he wasn’t mind controlled or in a suicidal/homicidal rage over losing his entire family.
Him becoming suicidal/homicidal after his whole family disappearing is extremely disqualifying on the asshole/if he took the serum front. I know it’s the MCU, and he was a good guy before…but that’s a villain origin story. A person’s grief can’t excuse them becoming a murderer…look, if IRL people can come back from something like that and live their lives, I don’t think Hawkeye gets a pass. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. Hawkeye from the comics, though, I’d be curious about him getting the serum, though I feel like he wouldn’t take it.
More of an anti-hero origin story.
He essentially went Punisher for a while and went after criminal organizations.
More of an anti-hero origin story.
He essentially went Punisher for a while and went after criminal organizations.
Which was a grand total of like 5 minutes of his screen time…
I guess if you ignore his arcs in the last act of Avengers, most of Age of Ultron, and Civil War.
But they all got their powers from other sources? Or are we using ‘serum’ as a catch all for anybody who’s received special powers from an external source?
Well actually I was just highlighting the fact that the Avengers can kind of be dicks overall. Too harsh? Obviously they’re all flawed in their own ways…but I don’t think Steve’s personality is THAT much of an anomaly. He’s just surrounded by dicks.Like IMO if any of the non-Black Panther Wakandans in Black Panther got the serum…I’d trust them with my life. Can you imagine if a character like Nakia got the serum? It was kind of coincidence that the three people I thought were comparable to Steve in terms of personality got their powers from external sources. But I think they had similar situations to Steve — they weren’t looking to be superpowered, but lucked out, and their response was to use it for compassionate means. This might not apply to Black Panther — I don’t remember if he knew he was going to get the powers in the movie. But I just think of the many, many ways he’s shown other characters compassion and justice compared to the Avengers. Just think about how he captured Zemo (a man who purposefully killed T’Challa’s father) peacefully compared to how Tony fought tooth and nail against Steve because of Bucky (who was, you know…brainwashed…).
With T’Chala, it was hereditary. he knew he was in line for the suit and the powers, but he was prepared his entire life for it, including instilling a sense of responsibility for his people as the price for his power. He also has the strongest support network in the MCU, with a loving family, close friends, and loyal advisors to keep him in check.
Ant-Man’s a dick?Avenger Black Widow was a dick?
Well, they were both actual criminals at some point. Obviously for various and not-unsympathetic reasons but still.
But the question is were they dicks? Nope.
Black Widow murdered the fuck out of people, so…
Ant-Man’s a dick? Isn’t he a convicted felon at the beginning of the movie?
Felon =/= dick.
They go out of their way in that film to say that Scott’s crimes were altruistic. i.e. he only robs from rich people that deserve it, he went to prison because, as Luis says:“They were overcharging the customers, right? And it added up to millions. He blows the whistle and he gets fired. And what does he do? He hacks into the security system, and transfers millions back to the people that they stole it from.”
I’m not a comics reader like most of your commenters but just from watching MCU movies and TV shows it seems to me that Steve Rogers’ reputation/being “deified” for being the only human pure enough and with strong enough character to take the super soldier serum and not go crazy or become a dick or something is pretty well founded and not out of proportion to what happened. He was chosen purely for this reason and there haven’t been any other people with similar results (though I understand there were other variables at play). I take your point that he was given the serum BEFORE he experienced the horrors of war or even of fully growing up for that matter, but I still think his reputation as the only man pure enough to withstand the serum is understandable
Well, Scott Lang is a swell guy, despite his optic profession (prof cat burglar). Plus Sam Wilson, as shown times and times again, including in this show.
Oh true, I forgot about Scott! And wrt Sam, I guess since he said he wouldn’t take the serum I wouldn’t count him.Someone else in this thread suggested Black Widow…she’s not an asshole but I’m sure even she would know the serum would have some weird effects on her.
The thing with Black Widow is she threading a thin line, since she lives in grey area. She was born and molded into a spy/assassin for the longest time.
or Carol DanversShe stole that dude’s bike!
Scott Lang is a decent guy. So is Bruce Banner, basically. Clint Barton’s a good dad, and he held back from killing Thor when he could have. If by that word you mean “selfish, obnoxious jerk”, then Stark, Thor, Rocket, Yondu, and Strange qualify. But then all of them either died, nearly died, or suffered torment to save other people, so doesn’t that balance it off a bit? Thor blew up his own homeland to protect the galaxy from Hela. Even the GotG nearly died while saving Xandar.
Quoting Dr. Erskine to young Steve – “…The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength, and knows… compassion.”
Short answer: No.Long answer: That’s a tricky question for a few different reasons…For one thing, there’s the confounding factor of nobody but Steve ever getting the pure version of Erskine’s finished formula. Hydra’s formula (that Bucky got) is pretty close, & the serum from this show is pretty close, but that’s it. Every other attempt is seriously *off* in some way (Erskine’s prototype formula that Red Skull took, or the DoD formulas given to Isaiah Bradley/Emil Blonsky/et cet, or the Extremis formula, or the Centipede serum, or the Hyde potion,…).For another, there’s the question of what kind of people have taken it & what else was done to them. Red Skull was a terrible person in the first place. Bucky was a good person, but he also got brainwashed. Isaiah was a good person, but then he got tortured for decades & was just broken. Blonsky was a deeply violent man, & then he got hit with a gamma pulse on top of the serum. Killian was an egomaniac. Garrett was a narcissist. Peterson suffered hallucinations & then got turned into a cyborg. Cal had a mercurial temper.
Theres no reason for it to happen, but it wouldve been interesting to see what the serum would do to Tony Stark.
That sounds horrifying, but I’d watch it to feel vindicated about how close Tony is to being villain. (One could easily make the argument he is one…)
I’ve been saying for years that Tony Stark and Lex Luthor are basically the same character. It’s all in your perspective.
Tony Stark in the Civil War story (in the comics, not the movie) is definitely a villain. He sells out the other heroes, imprisons most of them in a secret gulag in the Negative Zone (indefinitely – no chance for parole or trial), he betrays Peter Parker when Peter says that being on Tony’s side is the wrong decision (he’s monitoring everything Peter says or does through his Tony-provided costume). Oh, and he helps develop a clone of Thor who goes out of control and kills Bill Foster.
I don’t think it would have much effect on Tony since he would presumably stay in the suit.
“In fact, the way that the characters deify Steve as the only person to respond well to the serum feels remarkably unfounded.”Unfounded? Perhaps Steve was a one of a kind person who was innately good through and through. Otherwise, this wouldn’t have happened:Remember that Dr. Erskine didn’t necessarily want the perfect soldier to have the serum, because a perfect soldier wouldn’t necessarily be a good person to begin with.
Luke Cage seemed to respond fairly well to the serum. Or are we not supposed to mix the Netflix MCU with the Movie MCU universes? 😉
It feels like there are some missing scenes with John Walker. He looked super stressed out. They’ve shown that he’s been frustrated but it looks like he hasn’t slept for days and they haven’t shown much of why he looks that tired.It’s the same issue with Donya, they introduced her and killed her in the same scene and she’s so important to Karli. There are definitely some shortened plotlines, maybe even an episode that got cut.
Well with peak-Covid happening during production, it’s not surprising that scenes may have been cut.
IIRC, it was confirmed that an entire subplot about a viral weapon was cut from the show, & that had to include footage they’d filmed pre-lockdown, so they had to go back & re-edit things.
Any link to this? It would explain a lot, especially why it feels like the audience is trying to play a bit of catch-up.
Here’s the first one I could find from googling right now: https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/falcon_and_the_winter_soldier/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-set-video-shows-us-agent-battling-an-unknown-foe-a178296#gs.y2wxqw
Yeah, you’re probably right. Maybe some superior chewing his ass out, or some fight with his wife, or a lot more of them chasing bad leads.
I’m fairly certain that ep. 3 was originally supposed to be two episodes. It had so many truncated scenes, barely anything with Walker and an overall rushed feel that episodes 1, 2 and 4 didn’t. So instead of two episodes, they cut it to one and then dumped a few scenes on 2 and 4 to smooth it out as best they could.
John is one more supersoldier they’re probably going to have to kill.
I’ve never understood using Turkish Delight as a temptation for kids. That shit is terrible. It has no flavor beyond sugar. There has to be hundreds of more tempting sweets than that, at least now. I don’t know what was available in the 1940’s, when TLTW&TW was set, but can’t imagine tempting kids with it now.
Fry’s Turkish Delight, which is basically a chocolate covered version, is slightly better than the real thing. It’s still a naff chocolate/sweet though.
Zemo should have handed out Turkish cigarettes instead.
There’s already a supervillain who does that.
Obviously taste is subjective, but if you can only taste sugar in Turkish Delight, then I think you’ve just had bad Turkish Delight. The good stuff is beautifully flavoured and, for me, truly lives up to the second half of its name.
At least in Lewis’ work it was tempting because it was an exotic candy found among more wealthy people, and in the middle of WWII where things like that have probably been unheard of for a child for years.
I kind of get the feeling it’s an outdated sweet from another time (for Euro and American kids, at least). Kind of like, when’s the last time anyone here had Divinity? It makes a lot more sense in Lewis’s work, because luxuries of any kind were in short supply during the war.
Lots of great character moments in this episode.First off, RIP Battlestar, we hardly knew ye.Secondly, this episode really gave me the feeling, finally, that Sam truly would fit as Captain America. Not because of his fighting prowess but because of his ability to reason and empathise and his willingness to understand and defuses situations rather than simply resorting to violence.Thirdly, Bucky’s flashbacks have been handled really well so far, but this one in particular was excellent, and Stan sold every moment of bitterness, fear, horror, and relief so well.Fourthly, I feel like they’re doing an excellent job of making Walker weirdly sympathetic/empathetic in spite of his steady downward spiral. You could practically pinpoint the moment his heart broke during the “they weren’t even super soldiers” line. Russell is doing a fantastic job with the character.And, lastly, the Dora Milaje… not only is is great to see the show leaning into the nature of its long-form, interlinked comics universe (of course people will cross paths, it’s a small world after all!) but their central scene quietly and calmly reinforced how terrifyingly skilled and ruthlessly efficient they are as a force (emphasis on “force”). There was no strained “girl power” feeling to it, just a simple “we will have your respect, or your head… and possibly both”.
Sam was acting more like Captain America in this episode than the guy with the name and shield.But then, I feel like that’s kind of the point: Sam’s stepped in to fill the hole left by Steve, and already kind of is Captain America; it’s just gonna take a while for the world (and to an extent, himself) to realize it.
To me, it feels like Sam doesn’t want to live up to the mantle of Captain America; he wants to live up to the ideals of Steve Rogers. It’s the man behind the mask that he admires.
I also think that they’re doing a good job making Walker sympathetic— I’m kind of confused by some of the comments asserting that he’s some mustache-twirling villain now, his downfall has been very human and less sociopathic.
Yep – he absolutely snapped…after his best friend was murdered, and he couldn’t do anything to stop it, meaning (in his mind) he’d failed, fundamentally, as Captain America.He’s not evil – he just can’t handle the job.
It’s The AV Club(tm). He’s been pretty easy to read with his every strength and weakness visible for all to see, but commenters here have been layering secret villain signifiers since the beginning of Episode 2. (Did you see what he did to that locker? It’s like he thinks he’s O W E D something!)
I don’t know about this Walker guy as Captain America. But he would make a great U.S. Agent!
I don’t like how the Flag Smashers are basically what the media thinks the Antifa is rather than what they are. The media thinks the Antifa are well-organized terrorists who occasionally do good things and talk about quality. In reality, the Antifa are a loosely-organized group of anarchists who only attack property, and even then not very well, because they’re busy running soup kitchens and trying to find empty houses for homeless people to squat in. And yeah, there’s like one arsonists in the group, but he’s bad at it, and everyone totally hates him for it. That’s the Antifa.
I watched three episodes. Not good. Not really bad – just worse: the show is boring. The Falcon’s background seems unexplored, when we have so much we know of the WS. I’ll give the show another chance and watch this one.
I didn’t dislike the last episode at all, but this episode definitely puts it in the shade. It felt coherent and thematically-rich, and finally – finally! – we get some insight into the Flag Smashers’ ideals. I don’t mean because Karli said anything particularly enlightening, but rather how Sam pointed out to Bucky that, due to the Blip, there was suddenly more housing, food, etc, for people who previously had nowhere, or for whom it was difficult to find. Then, suddenly, the rightful owners of those properties return! So loads of people are back out on the street, or sent back to war-torn countries, and so on. I now totally get why the Flag Smashers would want to return to a world like that. I also really appreciate how well this show humanises Walker, so that even when he’s being a dick we’ve already seen some good in him. Which made losing his best friend even more of a gut-punch, and the subsequent fury at that Flag Smasher both shocking and logically consistent.
Fascinating to see the Doras in action. (sigh… rest in power, Mr. Boseman). Great to see a little more of Bucky being rehabilitated.This was another slow-burn episode. Great to see Sam attempting a more diplomatic solution at first. Karli is too far gone to fully sympathize with her. I guess it would help if we saw her origins. We still don’t know exactly how she even got hold of the super serums. Do we? (sidebar: Erin Kellyman is absolutely stunning. More high profile work needed for her!)
I am very angry about Hoskins being killed. (what did his stripes imply? Sergeant First Class E-7?) I thought for sure there would be a way for him to continue. I felt it was bunk early on in the series, for example, that he didn’t have his own helmet and shield. (Stop being cheap, Pentagon!) I don’t know how much a helmet would have protected him from that last wallop against a concrete column, but at least it would have been something. Considering the 1980s real-world controversial introduction of Hoskins as ‘Bucky’ (initially), and Dwayne McDuffie’s intervention which convinced Mark Gruenwald to rebrand him as Battlestar (the original comics had a cringe-worthy panel of Hoskins “new Bucky” mentioning having to take a class in remedial English, while Walker, well, didn’t…), I felt that this character should get a chance to last a good while in the MCU alongside Walker.When Walker palmed the (last?) remaining vial of the super-serum, I figured there would be a scene at the end where he turns it over to his superiors, and there’s the usual mysterious talk.I’ll have to rewatch the episode to be sure— I didn’t notice Walker bending any gun in the last fight. I figured the last outburst was just his rage based in part on his own war-regret and anger over the death of Hoskins. And of course, all of this was filmed by everybody around who had a cell phone?At the risk of being lurid— I wonder if at the end of the series, will there be a tag, where we see Hoskins’ frozen body laying in a stasis tube, and U.S. Army secret scientists are clearly planning to “do something” with him, based on the super-serum components that have been extracted from Walker’s blood (I suspect that Walker will be alive at the end of all this.)
Perfect way to introduce a version of Deathlok to the MCU, TBH.
It was a pipe he bent, not a gun. Sam had just shown up after Walker kicked a flag smasher down a flight of stairs so hard he dented something on the wall, and in the scuffle after, the smasher tried to hit him with a pipe. Walker bends it around his arms, smasher says “oh shit”. Sam looks at Walker and asks “what did you do?!”
Oh, that makes more sense. I was like, where did this Flag Smasher get a shotgun???
Yeah, they shouldnt have killed him. But it sets up an interesting thing, story-wise-Battlestar seemed to be something like a conscience to Walker…without him maybe the asshole in Walker will be totally untethered.
Also, the flag-smasher he killed was something like a conscience to Karli. He’s the one who was appalled by the bombing and even while being killed was saying, “it wasn’t me.”
Those are 2 different people. The one who was appalled by the bombing was Dovich. Nico is the one Walker killed in this episode.
You thought this was a slow burn lol
“I’ll have to rewatch the episode to be sure— I didn’t notice Walker bending any gun in the last fight. I figured the last outburst was just his rage based in part on his own war-regret and anger over the death of Hoskins.”
I am always kind of impressed by people who put more work into writing a recap than actually watching the thing they are recapping. The entire scene was designed around letting the audience know he had taken the serum, the entire episode had been building up to that decision, and there was really no ambiguity there.
Oh stop it, super-expert-person…
That last eerie shot of Walker with the bloody shield alone was worth the A for me
Great ending. Go Bad Cap.
lol, Bucky is still vulnerable to being totally owned by anyone who knows the secret codes to him, now it’s just a tactile code
That’s something he’s SENSITIVE about, okay?!
Which is weird, because it shouldn’t be that way. Take away the vibranium left arm and you still have a one-armed super soldier with super speed, super strength, super reflexes, and super durability. I think it was just the mental shock of being so rapidly disarmed that froze him.
I actually giggled at that scene cuz the look on Bucky’s face as it’s happening was priceless. Then the arm just falls off like a dead limb. Lol. Poor Buck, no respect!
20 bucks says next time someone does it to him he grabs the arm and just smacks them with it. All they did was give a super soldier a vibranium club.
Vulnerable yes, i thought it interesting that this time around, instead of being armed by codes, he is disarmed (no pun intended)
Yeah, the serum seems like a thing that only has potential when someone doesn’t want it. The three heroes all have this in common. Steve wanted to serve and the serum was just a path, one that might have killed him instead of making him healthy. Sam wants to help and wants to do it without the serum. Bucky had the serum forced upon him during torture. None of them sought it out.
Similarly, Bruce Banner was exposed to gamma radiation when working on a new version of the serum unintentionally as opposed to Blonsky who took it on purpose.
I wish someone would point out to Zemo that as a Baron who inherited vast wealth, he also has a lot of unearned power he has no trouble wielding, super-soldier or not. I mean, he’s making some good points, he’s just a wee bit glass houses about it.
That is part of what drove him over the edge in Winter Soldier, I think. He says how he was able to move his family outside the city where they would be safe. Here is a guy who is used to getting his way. It failed to save his family. Easy for him to overlook his privilege, but also frustrated that that privilege did not save his family.
Oh dang, great point; I hadn’t forgotten that detail, and was kind of annoyed at what seemed like a retcon last episode
Wyatt Russell is really good in this
Very nice review. I won’t repeat all of the comments here about overcoming and facing trauma – they are all spot on and I agree. In addition to all of that, the last scene was just jaw dropping. Looking at that crowd, many filming the killing with their cell phones – that struck a very contemporary nerve. Well done.
I wonder if we’ll get to see the Battlestar logo Lemar would add to autographs.I could have sworn I saw him die.
Flashbacks are a thing.
Plus it’s not as if all of his extant autographs vanished with his death.
We already know Sam is a veteran, but with the Avengers no longer a team (would you call them disbanded?)No, I’d call them… disassembled. *grins in comics reference*
it’s interesting that Bucky was given court-mandated therapy while Walker was allowed to roam free
John Walker killed all the “right” people, while mind-controlled Bucky killed the “wrong” ones.
That’s why Walker got three(!) Medals of Honor, and Bucky got parole with court-mandated therapy. That they’re both the walking wounded is, as far as the people pulling the strings are concerned, irrelevant…
This was well done, but with only two episodes left, I do wonder what they’re working towards. I appreciate that they’re making Walker sympathetic–it would’ve been too easy to make him purely a villain, so another direction is refreshing and appreciated.
I wish writers wouldn’t project Vietnam onto every American conflict overseas. Not every veteran is traumatized by war. The vastmajority are proud of their service, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq.
… the way that the characters deify Steve as the only person to respond well to the serum feels remarkably unfounded. It’s not that Steve was a better person than anyone, but the situation behind him taking the serum has yet to be repeated.This is very true, but not in entirely the same way as laid out in the essay. I’ve known a a few people live with chronic illness, and some of them absolutely become more empathetic after living with the awareness of their own limitations. Others became resentful of others who don’t share their condition even when those people are helping, or entitled and demanding after relying on the goodwill of others to keep them going. I applaud the sense of, and sensitivity to, empathy in the essay but it seems that illness, like the serum, can just make people more of themselves. I see the difference between Steve and the others is humility. Steve was not given free reign to charge into the world and impose his will, but he was asked to wait his turn and told that it would eventually come. Meanwhile, when Steve did finally burst into the world, it was in service of a group fo captive comrades instead of his own ideology or a desire to change the world; it was only to help people. Having to sit, wait, and listen for years and only acting when it was imperative is a trait shared by Sam, who was grounded when he met Steve, and why that humility is the true shared link between them.
I know what you’re trying to say, but I’m speaking very much to my own experience. I was sick for a long time without knowing it and then, after medication, I felt significantly better. That’s definitely not what a lot of people with chronic illness go through, but I felt it comparable to Steve’s experience of being chronically ill and then feeling significantly better.I don’t even think everyone with chronic illness would automatically say yes to a serum. I think this question is incredibly personal — there’s no obvious answer. But when I was watching, I felt slightly frustrated that I couldn’t see the characters’ perspectives — I didn’t understand why a serum that made you so much healthier wouldn’t be everyone’s top priority. Then I realized, well, not everyone needs to have that as a top priority…
Thank you for sharing part of your story. I guess I would wonder if there is a difference between a serum that makes you feel significantly better, but still within the range of “normal health/fitness” and a serum that makes you the absolute pinnacle of human strength, stamina, etc… like it does for Cap, Walker, the Flag-Smashers, Bradley, etc…
I think we also need to look at the idea that Steve may be almost unrealistically perfect
Cat Ferguson? Seriously? Why don’t you throw some Marrianne Williamson in there so you can spread the dangerous stupidness faster? Ferguson retweets her enough.
She retweets…them…ironically…
Are you saying Cat is some kind of anti-vaxxer now? I thought she was just like a normal health/science reporter. She was at BuzzFeed a few years ago, I think.
She literally reports on the COVID19 vaccines. I think this guy has some weird personal vendetta.
Marianne Williamson isn’t anti-vax
To be fair, Bucky spent 60 years as a brain-washed murderbot and John Walker didn’t. It’s not *that* hard to figure out why one of them was mandated therapy and the other wasn’t.
They both walk around with severe trauma. I understand the rubric, but the rubric is flawed! And when the rubric is flawed you get a man brutally murdering someone in public.
Well, you’re right about that. I don’t disagree at all.A conversation I had a really depressing amount of times in the run-up to us invading Iraq was me pointing out that nobody gets out of a war without damage, whether mental or physical.We should 100% take better care of our veterans and I’d suggest that the first and best step in that better care is maybe don’t send them off to unwinnable wars that don’t really need to be fought.
Walker’s plot in this show shares a lot of DNA with Simpson from Jessica Jones imo; a genuinely decent guy who never deals with their trauma and uses power-enhancements to help them feel secure, causing them to go off the deep end.
Oh my God I remember that guy. Ugh, I had to skip his scenes because they scared me more than the stuff with Kilgore. He was too real.
Yeah, he definitely doesn’t stay a decent guy for long.
I’d argue the “decent guy” part, but by and large everything else is spot on.
It’s not as if there’s only one therapist who can only block out a certain amount of time and the government has to pick one of these two guys to go. Bucky’s clear need for therapy does not negate John also needing it. Besides, you’d think the government would want to completely clear (and regularly check in on) someone who’s essentially their mascot for America. If you don’t do that you end up with Jared from Subway.
The audience knows Walker needs it-but as far as I can see there’s no reason the govt would mandate he get it-(other than being a vet-and not every vet gets therapy)-on the surface hes the golden boy.
Obviously not every vet gets therapy, but there really needs to be more access to it. It’s also clear from his conversations with Lamar that he had some particularly intense experiences in Afghanistan, it’s not as if you win three medals of honor by doing really excellent paperwork. The government would definitely know this, otherwise no accolades. The government has been promoting the hell out of him too, to the point where random Latvian teenagers recognize him. Where are his handlers?
Don’t forget that Bucky had been working on it for 2-ish years. The entire time out of the freezer in Wakanda was a giant therapy session trying to recover from 50 years of torture. Walker highlighted the unfortunate reality of military service, people not getting the help they need leading them done dangerous paths.
If you listened to Walker’s conversation with Lemar it might’ve struck you that Walker is realizing he and Lemar were kind of brain-washed murderbots themselves
God, I loved this episode.If I had the opportunity to take the serum, I wouldn’t. I couldn’t imagine doing it because I’d be afraid of what I’d lose. I loved the parallels between Sam and Lemar when it came to the serum; both had no hesitation and both went in opposite directions.I always knew John was gonna end up with the serum; I just didn’t know the circumstances behind how it would happen. Him getting his ass handed to him by the Dora Milaje – while incredibly funny – sealed his fate as far as the serum goes.It was delightful to see Ayo back and in action. Florence Kasumba plays the role with such a regal demeanor. I would follow her to the ends of the earth; primarily because I’d be afraid she’d kick my ass into next Thursday if I didn’t.Karli is legitimately terrifying. Kudos to Erin Kellyman’s portrayal for making her one part sympathetic and one part horrifying. Even with all she’s done, I think Sam would’ve gotten to her if Captain Limp Dick wouldn’t have stepped in the way. But, calling his sister is a big no-no.Damn, that last scene of John with the bloody shield was striking. We’ve never seen that on screen, and it was sobering.
it’s amazing how much of a difference just having stronger lungs that can make you feel as a person.
Wow, spot on. I’ve experienced health issues that require ongoing medication— lung issues in particular— an its amazing how breathing problems or even the threat that they might occur weighs on the mind.* The “I was a fan of Captain America when I was a kid” scene had this energy:Same vibe the moment BattleStar started sounding like the voice of reason: death sentence.* I loved every minute of the scenes with the Dora Milaje, but they left me with some questions. At this moment in the MCU timeline T’Challa the character is alive and ruling Wakanda, right? The same T’Challa who captured, rather than killed, Zemo and turned him over to global authorities. The same T’Challa who saved, sheltered and restored Bucky. In retrospect it seems hugely disrespectful and foolish on Bucky’s part to free Zemo without consulting Wakanda. There’s an argument to be made that T’Challa would see a strategic advantage in helping Zemo escape because a) borderless super soldiers are a danger to Wakanda and b) it might allow him to capture and imprison Zemo with less objections from the world’s governments. Also, Wakanda has spies everywhere, why isn’t the White Wolf asking them for intel? I get the Falcon and Bucky track that the show is trying to focus on, but its creating some large logic gaps in the process.* Wakandan strategic cunning was on display when Ayo took Bucky’s cybernetic arm out of service. Planning three steps ahead of his opponents is a core quality of the Black Panther — and a valued Wakandan trait -in comics not explored enough in the films imo. It’s not just about being secretive, its about always having a contingency plan for situations like what if the White Wolf goes rogue?* Karli, we’ve already seen that Flag Smashers aren’t bulletproof. The first thing I thought when she threatened Sam’s sister and her kids was that Louisiana is one of the most gun happy states in gun loving America.
Sam gave some good backstory why the flag smashers exist. That with people gone, refugees and strangers were wanted. Now things turn to shit for them with everyone back. I wish they had written that in episode one. So much better than, “People liked it better before.” I thought this was about blipped people, not those left behind.
Definitely a very good episode this week. But the things that made the episode great for me was all the “quiet moments.” The scene where Ayo started to recite the Winter Soldier activation phrases and seeing Bucky breakdown when it didn’t take…so moving and happy/sad at the same time!And then the banter between Sam and Karli was sooooo good. I honestly thought Sam was going to get through to her. How he made her realize what she was doing was right and how she was doing it was wrong. Then of course Ego’s other son had to come in and ruin it all. I kinda hope Karli doesn’t die but I have a feeling she will/might? Maybe sacrifice herself to save either Sam or Bucky. And what does Sharon have up her sleeve….hmmmmm.
after Lemar is killed in a fight with them THIS pissed me off. R.I.P. Battlestar. Fuckin’ Hell…
It was so disturbing. I don’t think we’d ever seen a character killed on screen like that in the MCU. It made me feel a bit sick, but I think that was part of the intended effect.
I think they call it a “Gwen Stacy.”
Sam killed someone by throwing them out of a helicopter in the show’s first scene, that feels like a more disturbing death to me.
Wasn’t he grabbing someone out of the air? I thought he threw them out of the helicopter so he could catch them?
Sam dropped/threw/knocked multiple people to their deaths in the first episode. It phased me for a second, then I was like “eh, he’s a soldier doing black ops work in a combat situation” and accepted it. Although after his refusal to immediately kill or capture Karli this episode, him not thinking twice about killing mooks does seem a bit colder.
Yeah, except those guys are military combatants, and direct threat to Sam Wilson wellbeing. He has all the licenses to kill per rule of engagement.
I think the answer to that can be found in Harry Tasker’s response to his wife asking him if he’d ever killed anybody.“Yeah, but they were all bad.”
Sam was rescuing a kidnapped diplomat from criminals, the leader of whom joked whether they should gut the man like a fish.
On one hand, I couldn’t believe what was transpiring and my jaw was hanging in disbelief.On the other, there was a surprising lack of blood for such violence that I immediately snapped to “yeah it’s on D+”
It’s always one of my peeves in action movies/tv, and in superhero ones in particular because of the strength of the people involved, is non-super people are thrown around like that all the time and rarely do we see any realistic consequences. Nobody dies after being punched across a room into some architecture. That bank scene in Wonder Woman 1984? There’s no way most of those bank robbers weren’t already killed by Diana before the bomb went off.I think that conditioning by movies and television to not see people die or suffer any permanent trauma at all, not even major live-changing concussions (in the MCU alone, Tony’s brain should have been a complete mess no matter how good his armour was), made this all that more shocking even though this is very much what would happen if non-powered people were to get into fights with powered people.
Yeah, I was rooting for Walker to go berserk on them after that— any sympathy for the Flag Smasher out the door.
Did anyone think of “The Lion, The Witch & the Wardrobe” when Zemo was offering the kids Turkish Delight?I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking it or if it was a clever, subtle reminder that Zemo is not just the urbane voice of reason and is still dangerous.
Yeah! I mentioned that in my stray observations 🙂 Such a random candy to use otherwise.
Oops…you totally did – my apologies, Sulagna. I normally don’t skim like that. I was the comments section equivalent of the kid running to join the group at recess with his shoes untied. :-)But I agree with your points that it felt like a deliberate reminder that (despite his plentiful charisma) we shouldn’t get comfortable with Zemo.
It was the first time I felt like the original Zemo was back. O_O
It really did – which I appreciated. It could become too easy to become lulled into thinking Zemo is complacent because of the dad dancing and appreciating champagne. He’s just better at biding his time.To add to your points about the show paralleling Sam and John is their answer to whether to take the serum. Their reactions to the question was telling. John clearly thinks he needs it while Sam wouldn’t.
No, it’s perfect. No one but a semi-starved European would think Turkish delight is the best thing ever.
It’s not as bad as its reputation, but its nowhere near good enough to induce temptation in non-staved folks.
I appreciate Zemo as both a character and a mouthpiece, but I suppose I’ll be “that guy” and argue that the MCU has gotten a little too big for his commentary to credibly go uncountered by some straight facts.There are alien races out there who are just naturally stronger and faster than human supersoldiers, and they know all about Earth. Ostensibly, Earth is slowly creeping its way into an interstellar community that includes these aliens and these advanced civilizations. Meanwhile, on some kind of perpendicular, magic is a thing now. Sam, at least, seems to know that Dr. Strange isn’t your average science-based dude, and I imagine that eventually word is going to start trickling in about Scarlet Witch.
All this is to say: the people on MCU’s Earth should seriously be considering turning all humans into “supers” just to avoid being left in the dust entirely. Contextually, there’s nothing all that supreme about a stronger, faster human that can heal a bit better too. That’s still not going to save anybody from some hell-dimension demon or some piece of brutal Asgardian tech. Know what it will do? Reduce suffering and death that’s caused by accidents, diseases, and literally-alien threats (which does include wizards and wizard-adjacent fuckery.) Hell, it’ll make space travel easier. That’s going to be pretty darn important for a lot of people in that world very soon, assuming the MCU doesn’t give us the mother of all twists and destroy human civilization/Earth for really-reals.
So who’s really the supremacist here? I suppose “everybody” is a valid answer, but that rather negates Zemo’s focused zealotry. The Powers That Be who aren’t willing to give humanity a universal upgrade are just as supremacist as the terrorist/revolutionaries. All Zemo stands for, then, is a fig leaf over Promethean anxiety.And that’s fine! That’s not a poorly written character. It’s almost too perfect that he’s royalty. Those guys are incredibly wary of any technological developments that haven’t been 100% vetted and controlled by the aristocracy.
The problem is that nobody’s pushing back on him in very obvious ways with facts of rather staggering import and magnitude.
I loved the crestfallen Civil War theme after the fight with the Dora Milaje when Walker said with complete inadequacy, “They weren’t even super-soldiers.” I thought I was past the point where I could feel bad for the guy, but at that moment I was struck by the fact that everything he has tried to do since putting on the big A had ended in failure. He’s been thrust into a world of superheroes that has a lot of history and some complicated relationships, and he has no idea how to navigate it with the authority and confidence he feels he should have. I’m not saying that this isn’t mostly his own fault, but it was still a surprisingly sympathetic beat that played perfectly into his subsequent conversation with Lemar and his decision to take the serum.I also have to point out the amazing shot of Yama and Ayo standing over Walker, defeated on his knees, with Yama holding the shield with her spear. The constant recontextualization of symbols is a huge part of why I love the MCU. Oh, also, the look on Yama’s face when she handed the shield back to Walker was so kind and pitying!
That scene with Walker gutted me. I couldn’t believe how much of an emotional punch it had.
I don’t think anything put Walker in his place as hard as Yama flexing on him by doing the iconic stomp-grab on the shield.
It was so clean, it’s like she’d been dreaming about doing that move with that shield for the last 10 years.
Hell, she probably asked Shuri to make her a vibranium shield just to practice with.
Oh absolutely. I think prior to that he threw the shield and it got stuck instead of coming back. With him showing visible frustration.
That was after, but yea definitely a poignant moment. A friend pointed out that that may have been meant to show that he had already taken the serum.
“I took the serum and *still* aren’t as good as Steve…”
The Dora Milaje are not to be messed with. In any MCU movie. Damn. lol
I’d feel bad for him if he didn’t get in to that situation because he didn’t heed Sam and Bucky’s warning.“They weren’t even Super Soldiers.” also struck me as more whining than pitying. Especially since he should know who the Dora Milaje are.
I think that goes back to the point that he’s been put into a situation that he’s clearly not ready for and he probably doesn’t know who the Dora Milaje are (or at least how capable they are, don’t forget for much of the MCU’s history, Wakanda isn’t known as an advanced society). He’s spent his career in special forces, where he’s probably never run into an enemy he can’t beat, and now is fighting in a world with super soldiers and who knows what else. Layer that on top of being chosen to replace Steve Rogers, the most respected person in that universe, and I really kind of feel for the guy. I hope the show goes into how dumb it was for the government to even think it was a good idea to replace him.
Something else about Walker that strikes me…he seems to have studied Rogers at least at a surface level.Like, he knows how to look and move like him but has no clue what it actually was that made Steve in to Cap.
Everyone who is complaining about the bombing remembers Captain America shot an unarmed Flag Smasher first, right?Flag Smashers bring knives, Captain America brings guns. America brings guns, Smashers bring bombs. It is all escalation by a bunch of horrifically scarred people, and Sam and Bucky are just trying to get folks to the table to talk.Mother Love Bone, I love this show!
A minor plot hole with the Dora Milaje: Okay, I get why they want Zemo, but there’s a small problem: T’Challa surrendered Zemo to the authorities. I know we didn’t see it actually happen, but Zemo was in jail at the end of Civil War. And, it makes sense with T’Challa’s arc in the movie: he becomes consumed with revenge over his father’s death, but then he sees how vengeance has turned Zemo into a terrorist going to extremes to destroy the Avengers and causes Tony to almost kill Steve to get to Bucky. He learns the error of his ways and decides to seek justice rather than revenge for his dad’s death. So, he turns Zemo in. Now, the Dora Milaje work for T’Challa. So, shouldn’t they be okay with his decision? Is this a rogue faction that just wants revenge? Are they working for someone else in Wakanda who wants Zemo?
Maybe they just want to return Zemo to custody, as T’Challa did, but they clearly can’t trust another prison to hold him so they’ll take him back to Wakanda and jail him there.
My only real issue with this episode was the setting. How it all occurs in this abandoned amorphous hospital / orphanage or whatever and all it really takes to get out of a battle is run a few minutes in one direction. Then you can hang out, chat. No biggie.
The setting made NO SENSE TO ME, my brain just gave up
Yeah, the direction was frankly bad: Sam and Bucky ran out of their meeting with Karli to fly/run halfway across the city to…what may as well have been the same building.
Also, Zemo fondly recalls going to fancy parties and high-class restaurants in *checks notes* Soviet Latvia? His great-grandpa might have done so when Riga was a center of Baltic German life, maybe.
Zemo enjoyed many potato.
I bet we can blame COVID. Real world 2020 limitations hampered production a bit. Also, the end of WandaVision.
“[W]ith the Avengers no longer a team (would you call them disbanded?)“I’d say they were “disassembled.”
Disassembled?!?-Johnny-5
Zemo is always serving tea because he delivers the hot streaming truth…slightly sweetened, sometimes bitter, always well-brewed.
STOP this is so good
Look, no cap, I would give anything to have quality time with the writers and ask precisely how deep the symbolism in this show goes!
And it shows Zemo is a Baron by birth. He is their host, so he provides tea. It’s expected of someone of his rank, even if he gives them the food that doesn’t pass the smell test.
Zemo understands that supersoldiers will fall, but steam will rise!!
And he delivers it all while “doing that stupid head tilt,” JUST LIKE A TEA KETTLE.
Zemo serves tea because he’s manipulating them into liking him. This is actually a real psychological technique. If someone dislikes you, do small favors for them or give them stuff for free. Over time, their opinion of you will improve. It will take a while and obviously you shouldn’t piss them off in the meantime, but it works.And he’s a polite rich guy, as others have pointed out. Aristocratic manners.
Why is Zemo always making and bringing them tea?
Because he’s a Baron and has some motherfucking class.
I scrolled through most of the comments and didn’t see anyone else praising the interior design of Zemo’s hangout! The stained glass windows, the blue tiles on the wall and the pillars, the couch, the modern kitchen, the amazing bathroom, even the beautiful tea pot and glasses, one of which Bucky so rudely destroyed. I want that set designer to have an HGTV show I can binge.
The next episode will include the revelation that Zemo got Queer Eyed. Bobby Burke really went to town on that place.
Interesting choice to have Wyatt take the serum OFFSCREEN. We all knew he was gonna do it; but until he bent that metal, we didn’t know he had done it. There was a nice moment where someone – was it Sam? – saw that he had powered-up, and you could see them reassess.This show has some good moments, but it is still dumb as fuck. It’s plotted very haphazardly.
I don’t have any understanding of the relationship between Karli and the Power Broker. How does Karli have super powers? Why her? If the PB needed some guinea pigs to experiment on, then how did Karli get chosen? Why were only 20 doses of the serum made? If there were 20 prototypes, how are there not 20,000 ready to roll out next? Do scientists not take notes in the MCU? This work can’t be re-created if one guy dies?
But wait: some scientist somewhere had success with Isaiah, years ago. So the super soldier serum has already been re-created: sometime around the Korean War or Viet Name war or something. What happened with that scientist? Did he get murdered too? Did he also fail to take any notes whatsoever?
And what are Karli’s aims, anyway? Is she just complaining? “Some people just want to see the world burn” style? Does she just want to kill some Global Resettlement employees? Does she have any plan at all? And, if she thinks it’s just barely possible that Sam might be something of an ally; does she think it’s a good idea to threaten his family? Or does she have enough awareness to realize that that’s something that might backfire?
The business with Sharon’s role in this story makes no goddam sense – unless she’s the Power Broker! My wife dropped that possibility on the family while we were watching the episode. But then if she’s the PB, then the whole pure-heart Capt America’s girlfriend thing makes no sense.
Also, why are Sam & Bucky being so careless about letting the criminal Zemo just walk around? Why are the Dora Milaje being so careless about letting Zemo leave the room? He’s the whole reason they were there! And they had no trouble with Bucky & Wyatt. No one among this hyper competent squad was keeping their eyes on the prize?The story doesn’t make a lick of sense. By far the two most interesting characters in this thing are Bucky, and Bucky’s therapist. Followed by Isaiah, and then Sam. Karli has an interesting presence to her – so do her buddies, honestly – but she’d have to grow a story to actually become a “character”.
This is Thor The Dark World levels of fail. One of the most poorly-constructed things to come out of the MCU, ever. Am I the only one who sees it that way?
No, you aren’t. But I also try to grade shows based on what their best qualities may be. This isn’t comparable to, say, Barry, but at this point, I grade a lot of MCU shows on a curve. Also, I think you are correct on many levels but it is also a fun action/adventure show with actors that can really liven up their characters. Like, you don’t examine a movie like Speed too closely, you know? I think this show is also just doing SO much more than it realistically ever could as a whole show, let alone as a six episode miniseries.
To be fair, is anything right now comparable to Barry?
Real life is barely comparable to Barry
You have clearly never watched Speed with an ex-army EOD guy.
Thanks for yr reply.I get grading on a curve. But the MCU shows came out hot with WandaVision. This one doesn’t approach the ambition or intelligence or sense of “atmosphere” that show did. It’s a disappointment. It’s poorly written.
You brought up Speed . I think that example really reflects poorly on this MCU entry. Speed is plotted like a goddam Swiss watch. You wouldn’t compare it to (say) Chimes At Midnight of course; but on its own merits, that thing is TIGHT. It can stand close scrutiny. Falcon & Winter Soldier cannot.For an action show, plot matters.
Isn’t that the point though? This show is about the clean-up after End Game. (Keep in mind that this was supposed to air before WandaVision.)
In the past, the Avengers were a coherent team with clear leadership and direction. This series is reckoning with the fact that Sam and Bucky (and especially John) have no idea what they’re doing and are figuring it out as they go. On top of that, they’re being forced to confront ethical dilemmas that aren’t easy to solve with punching and kicking. I think the plot holes are more a reflection of the poor decisions that most of the characters are making, on all sides.
The crux of this whole episode was Sam starting to figure out his new roles in his conversation with Carli and trying to be a new kind of empathetic hero, but then it all got screwed up when his “teammate” got impatient.
youre not wrong, but I think you just expect too much from marvel movies/tv shows-you want a level of thought and consistency theyre just not going to give you.
I think you just expect too much from marvel movies/tv shows-you want a
level of thought and consistency theyre just not going to give you.That hasn’t been the case before. Iron Man (1), Cap Winter Soldier, Doc Strange, Thor Ragnarok, Endgame all delivered coherent stories that were thought-out and made sense. WandaVision may have had some peripheral elements that weren’t 100% nailed down (the SWORD director’s storyline), but it also showed a high level of thought & ambition.
Recently I’ve been re-watching some episodes from the prime years of Law & Order (around seasons 5 thru 10). It should not be too much to expect, that a “presitge” MCU show be as well-plotted as a solid episode of Law & Order.
I think comparing F&WS to WandaVision is kind of a moot point because their aims, successes and failures are so drastically removed from one another. I also always have to contextualize things with the understanding that F&WS was supposed to be the first Marvel show out the gate before Covid caused it to be delayed and released second. It is engineered specifically to be a Marvel fan’s Marvel show and prove that they could do the movies scale as a TV schedule rollout. Just by the nature of this, it’s going to be less unique or “ambitious” than WandaVision in terms of atmosphere and thematics. What it IS doing very well is giving people very likeable actors looking cool and doing cool things, which is essentially Marvel’s brand.
WandaVision had the opposite problem, where it was essentially conceptualized to give audiences something new and intriguing to say “hey audiences, Marvel shows aren’t just for Marvel fans”. The problem with this is that unlike F&WS, WandaVision struggled the further it went along because the potency of the concept was unsustainable. By the time of the big villain reveal, I think a lot of people had already guessed it, or had kind of a “who cares?” reaction (luckily they had Katheryn Hahn, otherwise that reveal would have fallen completely flat). As with most mystery box shows, the payoff is almost impossible to live up to the promise of the series, especially when your high concept show ends up in an ugly CGI magic fight. Meanwhile, this show is keeping a much stronger consistency episode to episode, is giving almost all of its characters some very interesting dynamics to work with (I agree, the Flash Smashers are there to introduce theme as opposed to be strong characters themselves), and I feel has a much better change to stick the landing.
I honestly think it might be Loki that splits the difference between the two shows and ends up being the stand-out.
They didn’t recreate the serum with Isaiah.
He was the lone survivor of hundreds of BIPOC American “volunteers” who were treated in the 1940s with Steve’s blood samples in an attempt to salvage the serum from his blood – in the same way that The Leader (Dr. Samuel Sterns) stretched Dr. Bruce Banner’s blood samples in The Incredible Hulk to make more of it.
But by 1946, the US government had run dry on Steve’s blood, and only had one vial left. And Peggy Carter destroyed that one vial, so the only people with super serum left were Isaiah Bradley (in the US government’s hands) and The Winter Soldier (in Hydra’s hands but nominally used by the USSR).
The Super Serum wouldn’t be recreated by Howard Stark until 1992, when The Winter Soldier steals 5 samples of it and murders Howard and Maria while they’re on route to delivery it. But apparently the US government had at least 2 other vials of Howard Stark’s recreation, because they used one vial on Dr. Bruce Banner in 2006 and one vial on Emil Blonsky in 2011.
We know that the US tried to recover the serum from Isaiah’s blood (so a recovery of a recovery created the stuff that Karli and John Walker both took… could cause degeneration more quickly, possibly). We also know that Hydra either stretched their serum samples or recovered it from Bucky or other Hydra Winter Soldiers’ blood: the serum is in use as a component of the serum in the Centipede devices used by Hydra Centipede and Deathlok soldiers in 2013 and 2014 (contained by Chitauri neural-link organs and mixed with Extremis and radiated with Gamma rays). But we also know that those serum samples were stretched thin and eventually ran dry: the last dose of the Centipede serum was used in 2018 by Quake to stop Graviton, mere days or possibly even hours prior to the Decimation.
They didn’t recreate the serum with Isaiah.
He was the lone
survivor of hundreds of BIPOC American “volunteers” who were treated in
the 1940s with Steve’s blood samples in an attempt to salvage the serum
from his blood – in the same way that The Leader (Dr. Samuel Sterns)
stretched Dr. Bruce Banner’s blood samples in The Incredible Hulk to
make more of it.
But by 1946, the US government had run dry on
Steve’s blood, and only had one vial left. And Peggy Carter destroyed
that one vial, so the only people with super serum left were Isaiah
Bradley (in the US government’s hands) and The Winter Soldier (in
Hydra’s hands but nominally used by the USSR).
The Super Serum
wouldn’t be recreated by Howard Stark until 1992, when The Winter
Soldier steals 5 samples of it and murders Howard and Maria while
they’re on route to delivery it. But apparently the US government had at
least 2 other vials of Howard Stark’s recreation, because they used one
vial on Dr. Bruce Banner in 2006 and one vial on Emil Blonsky in 2011.
We
know that the US tried to recover the serum from Isaiah’s blood (so a
recovery of a recovery created the stuff that Karli and John Walker both
took… could cause degeneration more quickly, possibly). We also know
that Hydra either stretched their serum samples or recovered it from
Bucky or other Hydra Winter Soldiers’ blood: the serum is in use as a
component of the serum in the Centipede devices used by Hydra Centipede
and Deathlok soldiers in 2013 and 2014 (contained by Chitauri
neural-link organs and mixed with Extremis and radiated with Gamma
rays). But we also know that those serum samples were stretched thin and
eventually ran dry: the last dose of the Centipede serum was used in
2018 by Quake to stop Graviton, mere days or possibly even hours prior to the Decimation.
They didn’t recreate the serum with Isaiah.
He was the lone survivor of… That’s an impressive amount of super-soldier-serum erudition. Nice work.
Karli and her people stole the serum from the Broker, hence the threatening
texts she’s been receiving throughout.This is purely speculation, but Isaiah’s whole deal hints at
a “Truth: Red, White, and Black” sort of situation, so his enhancements might
be less effective than Erskine’s final formula. They made a point of Erskine being
a uniquely talented scientist and that’s also why the Axis really wanted him dead.
The newer stuff could just be sub-standard compared to the original. He could be
a pre-Steve test subject that they just sort of shelved until they needed to
counter Bucky in Korea, who the Soviets pumped full of their own
less-than-perfect version (coupled with the admittedly imperfect addressing of
racial issues this has major Liberation of Paris vibes.) Also Erskine is the
Jay-Z of the chemistry world and doesn’t write down his flows.
I felt
that Karli’s whole thing is lashing out at “these people who are wrecking
things for us.” It seems somewhat counterproductive, but then there are plenty
of examples of revolutionaries/terrorists that victimize their own people in an
effort to sway public opinion, so I ain’t especially mad at that one.
I
think Sharon is there for two reasons. One is to be embedded enough in the
secretive and entirely alien environment of Madripoor to know how it all works
and to be friendly enough with Sam and Bucky to fill them in on it relatively
quickly. The other is to be another voice in the chorus of “Take the shield,
Sam.” That we’re gonna get at the end. She is (outside of Bucky) the only
living person who knew Steve best, given her constant surveillance and all. . .
As for not watching Zemo, come on, the utterly useless dude you kinda hate is getting his ass beat for being a dick (the man called them sidekicks!) and you’re gonna watch the dude in the fur coat that has actually been helpful in all this? Can’t help but think I’d be just as petty as they were in that situation. Also they probably needed to make sure the Dora didn’t kill ‘em, what with their habit of disregarding any and every law outside of “What the Black Panther says goes.”I admit it ain’t Marvel’s best work, but “The Dark World” is a bit harsh, in my opinion.
As for not watching Zemo, come on, the utterly useless dude you kinda
hate is getting his ass beat for being a dick (the man called them
sidekicks!) and you’re gonna watch the dude in the fur coat that has
actually been helpful in all this?
I could buy Sam & Bucky losing sight of Zemo. Esp as Bucky was busy getting his arm ripped off.
But Zemo was the entire objective of the Dora Milaje operation. And they won the fight as easily as they could possibly have hoped for in their planning. It’s silly that he could’ve gotten away from them “in the confusion”.
I think the flag smasher plot should have just been cut all together and this would have been a much better show. I liked that first episode a lot and it feels very different from where we are at now.
I would like to know what the planet smashers motivation and end goal is. Because so far I don’t even understand why people are in camps.
This episode was the first one to directly address that, which is a little nuts. The idea is that snap-depopulated countries were suddenly welcoming refugees who they were previously trying to keep out (because it turns out that losing 50% of your population is very, very bad on just about every possible scale), but tried to kick them back out again once the snapped people returned 5 years later, creating an instant massive refugee crisis.This is I think a reasonably smart take on what the aftereffects of the snap/blip might be, but the plotting around it has been terrible: if this is where they were going to go, they should have started mentioning it in WandaVision and made sure that it was firmly established 30 minutes into F&WS, because we’re talking about a worldwide disaster that would make the partition of India look like a walk in the park. Instead we’ve spent the last 3 episodes being told in effect that the Flag-Smashers have a principled objection to borders rather than a visceral objection to being kicked out of countries they’d spent the last five years thinking they had permanently relocated to, and being kept in refugee camps that we basically never see.
You might want to pay more attention: They are called the Flag Smashers and their motivations were explained.
Lol typical avclub little bitch comment
I’m not sure what you mean by that, can you explain it a bit more please? Does paying attention make one a ‘bitch’? Do you consider being a ‘bitch’ a bad thing? If you’re not going to pay attention because you don’t want to be a ‘bitch’, why do you even bother watching?
Omfg. Heres a pro tip – when someone calls you a little bitch for being a cunt about a superhero TV show, you don’t defend yourself by whining like a little bitch.
So now paying attention is being a ‘cunt’? Is that better or worse than being a ‘bitch’? I’m still not sure why you’re saying this and you didn’t explain yourself at all, would you mind elucidating a bit? Am I a ‘bitch’, a ‘cunt’, or both, why exactly does paying attention make me either one and is that good or bad?I’m really intrigued by your thought process in all honesty. I’m watching the show because I”m interested in it and so I pay attention to what’s going on, but apparently you look down upon that? So why exactly do you watch the show if you’re not paying attention to what’s going on?Also I’m rather interested in what you consider ‘whining’. Can you quote me ‘whining’ about anything?
They explained it in the episode. During the blip people migrated to new countries for work (the implication was they were often incentivized); everyone came back and they were thrown on the street. I would also imagine vast swathes of housing were left to rot as un-needed after the Blip (Endgame certainly shows that decay) so there simply isn’t serviceable housing available. All to protect one four year old.
Most of your complaints boil down to “I haven’t had my hand held enough!”
What is Sharon’s role with the PB? We don’t know YET. Clearly something is being set up.
What are Karli’s aims? We don’t know YET. Again, clearly there is a reveal being planned for that.
What’s her relationship with the PB? AGAIN, that hasn’t been revealed.
Why does everyone need to be a Mountain Dew guzzling story junkie that needs everything spilled out in perfect detail RIGHT NOW? Jesus, let a story be told. You don’t need everything spoon fed to you like a five year old.
Most of your complaints boil down to “I haven’t had my hand held enough!”I don’t think that’s true. I’m a comics nerd from way back, and my family has seen every MCU flick in the theater – my 12yo son can rattle off chapter & verse on all the plots from like Winter Soldier on.I’m ok with secrets being held back, and important mysteries waiting to be resolved. But a story has to make sense too.
I really wanted this show to be good. It’s not like I was looking for opportunities to punch holes.
amazingly, the same people turn around and complain that it was all too easy, there was nothing exciting about the story, no fun reveals, etc. etc.they rob themselves of enjoyment every time, but blame everyone else for it.
Karli and her band of misfits stole the serum from the Powerbroker who wants the serum back and maybe revenge. They injected themselves. The murdered scientist recreated the serum using Isiah’s blood. He was reinventing the wheel which can take time. Karli wants the world to go back to the way it was before the unsnapping. A world without borders, national identity and with far more resources.I believe Dovich (Karli’s right hand man) is the Powerbroker and Sharon works for him. Sharon explains her character’s change of heart in episode 3 (I believe) and why she is on the run.Great show if you pay attention(said in a teasing manner).
I also don’t feel like I understand the concept of Captain America as John Walker in the show. I understood Steve Rogers as he was introduced through the movies, he was as PR machine, than forced his way into combat and proved himself an undeniable asset, and remained so even after being unfrozen, then became an independent superhero.What is John Walker supposed to be though? IF he’s Captain America as a PR machine, shouldn’t any missions be, at best, low risk high profile endeavors? OR…if the story is John Walker IS an incredible military soldier who, while not super powered, is skilled enough that I guess he can just kind of freelance his way across the world, shouldn’t the government still at least want to protect him and maybe send him out with some kind of support team? Rather than just letting him run around with one other ordinary guy? I mean if they’re going through the trouble of promoting and advertising these two as a face of America, you’d think the government would want to take SOME precautions to make sure they don’t get killed. So I really don’t get this concept of Captain America as just an ordinary dude that they let run around engaging in high risk US military actions with an American flag bullseye. I kind of thought it’d be revealed at some point that John Walker WAS a super soldier, and that would explain the kind of quasi-superhero role he was playing in the show. But with this episode showing that not to be the case, the whole nu-Captain conceit just feels lazy.
I
also don’t feel like I understand the concept of Captain America as John
Walker in the show. I understood Steve Rogers as he was introduced
through the movies, he was as PR machine…
What is John Walker supposed to be though?
…
I really don’t get this concept of Captain America as just an ordinary dude that they let run around engaging in high risk US military actions with an American flag bullseye. Yes. This exactly.Steve made sense: started out as a savings-bond mascot, and made the costume stand for something more thru his efforts and abilities (and grit). Having someone else run around armed with the gear – esp someone who doesn’t have the super strength to make the gear practical – seems questionable.
But wait: some scientist somewhere had success with Isaiah, years ago. So the super soldier serum has already been re-created: sometime around the Korean War or Viet Name war or something.Isaiah’s plotline presumably is the same here as in the comics: he predates Steve Rogers, and is the last surviving member of an all-black battalion that the Army “volunteered” to test the serum on before it was used on Rogers.
“Also, why are Sam & Bucky being so careless about letting the criminal Zemo just walk around? Why are the Dora Milaje being so careless about letting Zemo leave the room?”It’s a very comic book story, it doesn’t have to make sense.“By far the two most interesting characters in this thing are Bucky, and Bucky’s therapist.”Zemo and Walker, imho.
I like The Dark World. The end has the hero punching the villain through the multiverse. That’s entertainment!
yikes; this is a lot of upset and resentment towards a television show. maybe it’s better not to watch.
I don’t have any understanding of the relationship between Karli and the Power Broker. How does Karli have super powers? Why her? If the PB needed some guinea pigs to experiment on, then how did Karli get chosen? Did you literally miss the scenes in TWO separate episodes where MULTIPLE characters state that she stole it from the Power Broker?
Did you literally miss the scenes in TWO separate episodes where MULTIPLE characters state that she stole it from the Power Broker?Possibly. I think I understood that Carli & some buddies rebelled after being guinea pigs for serum doses.No way she could have stolen anything from the PB before she got powered-up, right??
Why not? The lab had no security other than a pistol the scientist kept hidden under a lab bench
Why not? The lab had no security other than a pistol the scientist kept hidden under a lab benchAnd how does THAT make any sense? The biochemist was working for the PB, supposedly a rich & powerful presence in Madripoor. Why was the lab in a container junkyard, and not in a guarded facility with access controls etc?
Think of it this way: there are two ways to protect things.
You can either hide something valuable in something that is well-protected, but easy to find. For example, a safe.
Or you can protect it by putting it in a place where no one would look, maybe under a loose floorboard under your bedframe, or a slot cut into the wall hidden behind a door hinge.
Things like armed guards are HIGHLY visible. Lots of armed security tells people that there is something valuable. And while Madripoor might be full of criminals who might not want to mess with the Power Broker, governments might not have the same reservations. Remember that the chemist used to work for the CIA and Hydra. If a government entity wanted to track down his research and knew he was working for the Power Broker, they would first look at all of the Power Broker’s holdings, and probably concentrate on the highest security areas.
Hurray for opinions. Yours is wrong btw, but you are welcome to have it.
Thanks.Is frustration & disappointment rally an “opinion”? 🙂
Yes, it “rally” is. 😉
Some of that is just you not paying attention.Karli stole the serum from the Power Broker. They presumably could only steal but so much that’s why they’re being threatened and chased by the broker. It’s also obvious that Karli is in over her head and escalating the violence is based more on emotion and the serum’s negative effects than Karli being a great leader.John and Lemar in episode 3 decides to go off the grid and do their own thing. They even say that they’re breaking protocol by doing that. In episode 1 he has a team and I’m pretty sure they’re suppose to check in with their command and assess the situation. In MCU time, Sharon has been off the grid for 7 years and felt abandoned by Cap. She shouldn’t be a idealistic sweetheart when she’s a wanted fugitive. This again is explained in episode 3 where she refers to it all as bullshit. The serum from Bradley’s blood is inferior to Erskine’s serum. It was a group of scientists who were working on trying to recreate Erskine’s formula.
I really enjoyed the action scenes in this ep – Sam using his jet-pack engine to roast a Flag Smasher was clever on his part – but mostly I loved all the talking scenes. John and Lemar talking about Afghanistan, Sam and Zemo discussing the serum, even just Sam’s reminder that he had helped veterans in the past (a lovely callback). I honestly hadn’t expected much from this show other than action and intrigue, but I’m so happy the writers have gone deeper with the characters.
I didn’t like this episode (a minority opinion I can see), but this is a very convincing review for it.I’m still finding the character development of Walker and Karli to be too fast and too off-screen, even though this episode did improve on what felt superrushed last episode. I still feel like we’re told Donya is important rather than shown it, and the fact that Walker taking the serum and Lemar’s death and Walker’s push to murder happen in the same episode feels like a mash of what should’ve been two distinct steps.I find the speechfying kinda unconvincing really, since no one every moves in the slightest or shows any attempt at consideration. I think this is mostly exemplified that no one even tries to understand why Sam would not immediately take up the shield—though maybe Zemo does, in the same way he’s one of the few to resist the serum.I wish the action sequences integrated dramatic development more. The Dora Milaje showcase is a good one and bad one. Good in that it shows the points about the Winter Soldier’s arm and Walker can have that moment to wonder and be pushed toward taking the serum, bad in that the Dora Milaje are shown to be incompetent since they have one goal and that guy backed out a door.Zemo’s fun, but he feels like plot armored shovel of more plot. (Sharon too) A tough hard scene like Bucky being convinced to let him help was reduced to his cool escape—much the way that Sam being stopped by a cop was another hard scene deflected by Bucky’s arrest. Zemo also gets to be a stranger giving candy to kids and gets left alone with a handcuff. He gets to be very good by people being uninterested. (And Lemar keeps a knife? And the serum is in a fanny pack?) Maybe knowing some comics means the the arcs are predictable, so I’m finding the execution less than compelling.Personally, the post-blip stuff is most interesting element so far (and again, maybe that’s because I think I know where the show is going and so far I’m right), though the MCU’s narrative push of those left behind resenting the returnees (like it wouldn’t be traumatic to be flung into the future with a changed world filled with dead) to be kinda undercooked.
Johns descent was very predictable but it actually made me more sympathetic as I watched his inevitable destruction unfold. Couldn’t help but feel a little sorry for him even at the end there. He’s Captain America and he got his ass whupped by a side characters side character.
Wyatt Russell is doing a great job conveying the subtleties for the John Walker character. It seems, just like with a few other actors coming in to the MCU, art is imitating life, with him having to come in and replace (temporarily or otherwise) Chris Evans/Captain America. Lots of baggage to glean from that situation both as an actor and for the character.
Loving the character moments and the superb acting all around, so even if the plot feels lackluster—apparently partly due to COVID causing rewrites and reshoots—I still greatly enjoy this show.Took them a decade, but they finally let Sebastian Stan act.I wasn’t keen on Sam getting the shield in Endgame, because Mackie’s Sam has heavily been the comedic relief in his past outings, but the show so far manages to bring out a side of Sam that makes a good point about why he’s worthy. Personally, I’d still rather see Bucky become Cap for a Phase or 2 before finally giving it to Sam, because I want both of them to have their turn to be Cap in the MCU, and I don’t see them going from Sam to Bucky. If it was Bucky to Sam, it would’ve worked.Zemo is still interesting, but as I said last week he’s decidedly a very different character than he was in Civil War. I like it, though.John Walker is perfectly adapted here. He’s clearly not a good guy, let alone someone who could follow up Steve Rogers, but he’s not a bad guy, either. Just very troubled and under a lot of pressure, both internal and external. I’m glad they let him have this nuance, since in the comics he’s very, very rarely been actually villainous anyway.Next episode will be 60 minutes long. I’m all for it!
It’s definitely more satisfying to earn the shield, rather than just be handed it. And contrasting Sam with Walker, is doing a great job of justifying why this needed to be explored
It’s not that Steve was a better person than anyone, but the situation behind him taking the serum has yet to be repeated. Not only was he much younger and more naturally idealistic than any of the other people who’ve taken the serum—Bucky and the Bruce Banner of The Incredible Hulk come to mind—he was also the most frail.I actually made the observation to my roommate that if Walker had been plucked out of basic training, young and probably idealistic and not traumatized yet, he’d have ironically been a much better candidate even though he’d have lacked the combat experience to make full use of it. (At least, I’m assuming, as we don’t know much about him pre-military) Steve, at the very least, wanted to join the army not to kill Nazis but because he doesn’t like bullies.One moment in the episode I particularly liked was the conversation between Karli and Nico where she says she feels like they’d been chosen by fate or some other higher power when they wound up together in the camps. I thought that played nicely into Zemo’s argument about how the serum makes you a supremacist, and the conversations about what the serum brings out in you, much like it’s clearly giving Karli a messiah complex.In other news, Daniel Brühl is clearly having a lot of fun playing Zemo. I always enjoy/appreciate when that sort of thing clearly reflects in a performance.
“I actually made the observation to my roommate that if Walker had been plucked out of basic training, young and probably idealistic and not traumatized yet, he’d have ironically been a much better candidate even though he’d have lacked the combat experience to make full use of it.”With the original super-soldier experiment, it didn’t really matter how much combat experience that candidate had. The serum was going to transform them into a “super-soldier”. Besides the whole “the serum turns you into who you really are” thing, physically it wouldn’t have mattered if they had chosen someone with no experience and physicality or a solider with years of experience and in great physical shape.But when choosing John Walker as the next Captain America, they *had* to choose someone who was already a solider, in peak physical condition, with years of combat experience. They never planned for the new Cap to get the super-soldier serum. Choosing a per-serum Steve type would make no sense for what they wanted this new Cap to be able to do.
Why do you think its strange they didnt mandate therapy for Walker and they did for Bucky? It makes perfect sense. As far as the govt and public are concerned, Walker’s the good guy. On the surface, he has his shit under control. Bucky, on the other hand, is an ex-zombie brainwashed killer. Not every vet gets therapy, or wants it, or is mandated it. Also, even though therapy is accepted now, I still think the govt wouldnt want that on the record of their new Captain America. The “perfect hero” doesnt need therapy.
It ends with blood on The Shield……..THERE. IS. NEVER. BLOOD ON THE SHIELD. I was weeping.
It is REALLY weird that a textbook villain like Zemo is so against the serum, and doesnt want it for himself.
It makes perfect sense that Zemo is against the serum and would destroy it instead of using it for himself. That is his character.
It’s not bad per se, but it’s just so predictable. I really hope that Sharon isn’t the Power Broker, because then literally all predictable-boxes have been checked.Also it just seems full of random moments that happen because the script needs them to happen, not because it makes sense from the character point of views.
Other than that… Some cool fight stuff.
Power Rankings for Power Broker. My bias is this: I will be world-class annoyed if it is Zemo or Sharon, because I think that is lazy. So, here are my rankings:
1) Thunderbolt Ross
2) Brand-New Character with Dynamite Casting. (My dream is Timothy Olyphant as Arno Stark, but I’ll accept many other choices)
3) Sharon. FINE! The clues are just too obvious, but I dont like it.
4) A resurrected Killmonger who finds out what happened to Bradley and decides to go about his crusade another way
5) Rhodey, for much the same reason, only totally embittered against the U.S. Government.
6) Victor Von Doom
7) Ned Leeds
8) The waitress who Cap should have hit on in Avengers
9) Peter’s science teacher
10) Groot
11) Mysterio
12) Dottie/Sarah from Wandavision
1,130,108) Zemo
What, no Mephisto?
The idea elsewhere in the comment thread that Fury is the Power Broker is an interesting one, but if it turns out Sharon has just been faking her turn towards chaotic neutral in service of Fury I’ll be quite disappointed.
I’m with Hoskins. I’d take the serum, no doubt about it. That conversation with Walker was one of my favorites because you could almost tell he was counting on Lamar saying what he wanted to hear.I’m still not a fan of Karli, and I’m annoyed the show already wants you to forget about that whole bombing thing (it’s brought up in passing like it was nothing) and while she has valid points, they somehow still get scared after killing Hoskins, and runaway? I wonder how well the show actually understands extremist resolve, because she and the Flag Smashers are coming off more like vandals that just need to be set straight.
Then the ending happens, and it’s the single most effective thing the show could do to plead her case. The imagery of that symbol- America, with blood on its hands shield in a foreign country- is lost on no one. More powerful still, is the undercurrent hitting close to home right now: Those chosen to protect us, are killing us. Right in front of a crowd…
“you could almost tell he was counting on Lamar saying what he wanted to hear”I was thinking about the same thing. But also Lemar’s saying it just to buck up his partner’s confidence. It’s completely hypothetical to him in that moment, so there’s no harm pushing the positives. For Walker it’s an immediate option, but the fact that he doesn’t reveal that comes back to your first point: he just wants someone to say what he wants to hear.
the way Zemo draws in the children with the Turkish Delight reminded me of the White Witch from the Narnia books Me too! But it also reminded me that, as a kid, I finally got to taste Turkish Delight after years of thinking it would be magically good. It is, in fact, god-awful. Which makes sense since the White Witch is evil, and since Zemo killed King T’Chaka. Bad guys don’t hand out good candy.I loved this episode (and didn’t hate the previous one). I can’t tell if it’s Wyatt Russell’s face shape, or the way his mask fits, but he just exudes wrongness, and I can’t help but think that’s planned. (And yeah, I’ve seen the Carl from Up! picture and it’s hilarious.) The flashback scene of Bucky being finally free from those code words almost made me cry.
And – I don’t know who does the fight choreography but the fight scenes in this episode were nice. Very fast, very creative and a nice clear notion of who’s winning, hitting, dodging, shooting, etc. That’s kinda rare in tv and movie fights, really. (Last week’s pistol/knife/stick fight when Sharon was up against all those mercenaries was great too.)I am still a bit concerned at how casual Bucky is about letting Zemo out and working with him without Zemo being, I don’t know, handcuffed and masked like Hannibal Lecter or something. Kinda hoping Zemo will get his comeuppance, or maybe just sacrifice his life in the last episode. I know his wife and son got killed in Sokovia, I know he’s suffered. But he killed T’Chaka, and others, and it’s a bit cavalier to even let him drive a car, in my opinion….
I know the shield murder is referencing the Civil War scene where Steve barely stopped himself from killing Tony with the shield, but I was reminded of a Hawkeye mini-series from the early ‘80s where we were shown an image of what would happen if the bad guy’s plan (killing Hawkeye and using his death to bring superheroes to a funeral where a high-pitched noise would drive them all to madness-incited violence) came true – it wasn’t all that graphically drawn (this was before Marvel would double down into shock value or gory images), but Steve beheads Reed Richards or someone with the shield. Hawkeye saves the day, fortunately, but losing his hearing in one ear in the process. (taking a minute to say I’m still sorry Hawkeye is such a waste in the MCU…)A good while after John Walker’s breakdown and revenge killing, he gets dumped onto a team with other “we don’t know what to do with them” characters like Hawkeye, Mockingbird, Firebird and Julia Carpenter’s Spiderwoman. I can’t see Walker staying around past this show, even though there are many compelling questions you could ask with him. That’s one of the difficulties of these shows – they seem to exist in part to Say Something, which a number of fans have wanted the MCU to do, yet you do walk away thinking we will have to go back to the default setting (as happened over and over with how we were meant to see characters like Tony Stark). Most people don’t really watch the MCU for complex ethical dilemmas or soul-searching (and most of the time, shows and even many comics which do try to tackle this field end up as a dumpster fire). As a result I’m mostly wondering how they will wrap up his story in these last two episodes.
Steve NEVER intended to kill Tony, that is sooooo very fucking important for folks to get. He was always going to aim for the power source on the suit, always going to disable. Cap kills if he has to in the heat of a moment, but he wasn’t even slightly gonna try and kill stark. Come on.
My main takeaways:
1. Am I a terrible person for not remembering who Donya is?
2. The whole bomb thing is looking more and more inept on the part of the show-runners. Was there any suggestion that it served a practical purpose, or was unintended? iirc it was a straight forward terrorist act, in the literal sense.
3. My understanding of the super-serum was that it worked with what it had, hence the Red Skull. Not really disputing the validity of transposing that onto ptsd, but it’s always been clear that Steve Rogers represented a particular ideal. Bottom line, he was always special. That’s what the grenade scene was about in First Avenger.
Every week of this show just makes me want a Thunderbolts show with Zemo in the lead even more. Daniel Brühl is so damn GOOD, and the Blip would’ve been a perfect timeframe to slide a Thunderbolts show into.
Wow I disagree. I thought this was a terrible episode that meandered and only came to coherence in the end. Am I alone? To me, the F&WS suffers from a lack of motivated leads and overcrowded support. The action felt perfunctory – was the fight with US Agent and the Wakandans there for any reason other than to allow Zemo to escape? Was there even a dispute between US Agent and the Wakandans? They both want Zemo behind bars. What is even going on?
The show also continues to do confusing work on the philosophy of the leads. Zemo is a weird standin for the old-guard, but he is confusing and toothless. Are we meant to sympathize with the Flag Smashers then? Their goals are noble but confused. (The lack of actual context of what is going on post Blip does not help. What is the exact predicament? Did people truly sing kumbaya in the interim and share everything? Hard to believe but okay. And now the resurrected are making things tough?) Where do Falcon and Winter Soldier stand? No idea.Making this episode particularly bad was the apparent production problem of the dead martyr woman having some pandemic related subplot. There was obvious removal of scenes about her – she’s left as a saint we never meet or understand.
I am surprised that people like this show so far – excepting strong acting from Mackie, whoever plays Winter Soldier, and Emily Van Camp, I’m not sure that I see much good yet.
Nah, Steve was a better person and he got a version of the serum that has never been duplicated. Those secrets died with Dr. Erskine. I’ve known a few people who had health problems or who got picked on a lot at one point in their life. As soon as they got stronger, they became bullies and took out years of frustrations on people. Sometimes the biggest a-holes are those who know what is was like to be weak and who now enjoy getting revenge. Remember, Dr. Erskine didn’t just randomly choose Steve because he was sickly. He chose him because he heard him telling Bucky why he wanted to join the war. Steve hated bullies; he had no desire to become one.
This series has pulled me in from the first minute, and I never felt it was “directionless”. On the other hand, I didn’t felt it was “suspenseful” either, because I saw this coming since the 2nd episode.
I’ve always liked both Sam and Bucky, and it’s been really fun to see their relationship develop.
I’ve never been a big fan of Captain America, he’s actually the MCU hero I care less about (team Tony Stark here, I spent all of “Civil War” rooting for him and the truth is Iron Man would’ve wiped the floor with Steve if he didn’t have Bucky’s help); but now I have a profound hatred for the New Cap/John.
It’s made so obvious in this series that he was an absurdly poor choice to take on Steve’s shield that it hurts. He has his own twisted idea of justice, and wants to take matters on his own hands, just to become completely unhinged on the end of this episode.I love Frank Castle/The Punisher, because he admits to having his own code and in some way “his own twisted idea of justice” (as I said above regarding John), and doesn’t pretend that it’s fair or correct. It is what it is.
That’s one of the most interesting moments of “The Punisher”’s second season: when Russo tries to break Castle by destroying his sense of moral superiority over his preys.But this New Cap/John has been annoying me since the beginning of this series – and kudos to the producers, since it was clearly the point of the character – in part because he takes up Steve’s shield while he’s convinced that he knows what it means and what Steve stood up for, when in reality he’s just a clueless, self-centered, jock-type guy, lost in his own insecurities, PTSD and other traumas.So I completely agree with you, Sulagna, when you say this:
it’s interesting that Bucky was given court-mandated therapy while
Walker was allowed to roam free, despite holding many heavy memories.
Even if the government did psychological testing, you wonder how the
hell they would’ve overlooked his obvious PTSD and decided he was a good
candidate to put in a war zone
I can’t wait to see Sam and Bucky kicking his butt six ways to Sunday!
I know I’m an episode late to this, but I REALLY want D+ to produce a show centered on Isaiah’s time as Captain America. From experimentation up to imprisonment, I feel like that would be an incredibly powerful show, and his story deserves to be told.
Pretty amazing that Disney+ is turning out to be the perfect outlet for Marvel endeavors for character depth projects that the big screen never allows time for. It’s scary to think of all the ideas running through Kevin Feige’s head right now. And I really don’t think the theatrical MCU model will be negatively impacted by them, but rather have the opposite effect.It’ll be neat to see how they balance both models to co-exist with each other this year.
It was good that they gave John a little backstory. I thought they making him out to be too much of a bad guy before. Being Captain America would be a tough assignment without superpowers.Though I do wonder where his “jurisdiction” in Latvia came from. The politics and economics of this show are not clear at all…
Wyatt Russell is so good in this, it makes me even angrier that there won’t be another season of Lodge 49. Although after seeing him in this, I can’t imagine him going back to a little show like Lodge 49. It’d be the same feeling as seeing Chris Pratt go back to the sixth lead on Parks and Rec after Guardians of the Galaxy.
I’ve been thinking about the Dora Milaje fight; Were they going to try to kill Walker and Hoskins? They didn’t look like they were fighting non-lethally and with spears, it’d be a matter of moments before they could’ve killed someone.
And going back to Walker, I have a feeling that somehow, he’s gonna get off scotfree with murdering a surrendered suspect. Maybe he’ll be forcibly removed from being the new Cap, but I think he might be a recurring threat in the future.
I definitely wouldn’t rule out the possibility of him showing up from time to time, assuming he’s alive after this series. We’ve seen characters we thought were long gone suddenly show up out of nowhere whenever the MCU plots call for it. As long as they don’t abuse this aspect, I’m all in on that.
Better that last week but still does not make a lot of sense. Everybody acts in an illogical and baffling way. Why for example did the Wakanda women start a fight for no reasons and a very violent one ? Why are we supposed to sympathize with “Karli” ? I have no idea what she wants and did not understand who she is and what is her history, beyond that she is some kind of pathetic left wing revolutionary. The post Blip world and its politics are not very clear to say the least.
I just read elsewhere someone ranting Trumpian/Breitbart rubbish about this series being nothing but leftist, globalist propaganda, etc. I replied that if this series is trying to glorify globalism, it’s doing a terrible job! The main globalist, Karli, just burned a bunch of unarmed, civilian aid-workers to death, and burst out that she would kill more if she had to. Zemo is right, the Flag-Smashers keep escalating, from only stealing money in ep 1 to outright mass-murder. The lauded post-blip “globalism” apparently destroyed Sokovia, which was carved-up by larger surrounding nations. The series is clearly championing Sam’s more MLK-esque philosophy, not Karli’s PLO-esque one. But Trump types (or lots of different types, I think) force the paradigm onto the material, rather than letting the material speak for itself.
Also it feels like the characterization of the GRC is so far not that distinct from the line of the stereotyping of “globalist” supernational cabal that leads conspiracy-minded to think of the UN as the arm of a Jewish illuminati ring.
Wouldn’t a globalist propaganda portray them as considerably more competent, effective, and sympathetic.
It seems obvious that Walker is dealing with PTSD with little or know help or therapy. He wanted to be a big hero but the terrible things he had to do in the Army made him think he wasn’t a hero, so he wants to be the ideal, unrealistic kind of heroic figure Steve is or is thought to be. He hates real “soldiering” and is then confronted with real, deadly violence again and snaps.
Thinking about the ending shield killing by John, what really makes him a bad guy? All the “spy” characters of the MCU kill bad guys by the dozens or hundreds. In the movies and this very series. The camera doesn’t usually linger on the bad guys they shoot, blow up, smash against trees, but they would be nice and visually bloody too. What’s the difference?
I think the difference here is that he killed a defenseless guy begging for his life. And he wasn’t even the killer. Killing bad guys while attacking an enemy base, trying to evade being seen or captured for your mission, that’s usually when the heroes kill.
I had enjoyed this show before, though I was not blind to its shortcomings. But that ending just made the show for me. I was shocked at how brutally John Walker murdered that Flag-Smasher. I mean, I watch gory movies and it wasn’t that extreme compared to those but still! This is the MCU we’re talking about! I want to clarify that I don’t think the quality of a particular movie or show revolves on how violent it is, but I do think that well-placed violence can make a strong point stronger. And my gosh, those final scenes were intense! I can’t believe they killed Lemar! He was always such a major figure in the comics, and we were just getting to know his MCU iteration. As for John, I had him pegged as a villain from the start, but that amount of violence in a normally light-hearted show means that Marvel is taking this one seriously. And for that haunting final image of the blood-stained shield, did that make anyone else kind of want to see an R-rated cut of the Captain America films?
Captain America killing a guy on live video. Not a good look for New Cap.
By the way, when Walker goes out the window and lands on the car, was I the only one that thought “Oh crap, superhero landing! Things have gotten real, now!”
I was thinking, “Why is everyone else—especially the freaked out, supersoldier Flag Smasher crew—jogging out of the building like normal, only half-fit civilians. We saw Cap running laps around Sam at 3x speed, but Karli takes forever to get moving.
Snyder fans: “Finally, blood on the shield and Cap kills! Is there a four-hour slomo cut of this scene?!!! We are grown-ups now!!!! Yayyyyy!!!!!”
Looks like it’s true. Super soldier serum makes you more like yourself. If I took it, I would be watching TV so hard.
“It’s not that Steve was a better person than anyone”Steve’s whole character is that he’s the best person.
In the First Avenger, Erskine explicitly states that the Super Soldier Serum amplifies everything about a person, not just their body. The Red Skull became a genocidal monster because, well, he’s a fucking Nazi. They’ve never really gone too much into Bruce Banner’s mental health issues prior to becoming the Hulk, but his attempt included a bunch of gamma radiation and the Hulk was generally good. I’d argue that the circumstances of Bucky receiving the serum are responsible for him being excluded from being considered a “good” result of a super-soldier.Walker looks to be a model soldier; he follows orders, looks good on camera, he’s got a bunch of medals and can be personable. But the government didn’t want another Steve Rogers, they wanted a Captain America who explicitly wasn’t that type of man. Walker would have signed the Sokovia Accords because he was ordered to. Walker wouldn’t have gone rogue because it was the right thing to do. And that’s exactly why he was chosen.
I haven’t read the comics, but knowing what I know about special forces types (stereotypically) will not be a good thing amplified. Particularly being hypercompetitive and strong-willed, add to that he was put in his place during his short stint as Cap pre-serum and the death of his partner, and you’ve got all the makings of a psychopath.
Exactly. It seems like Walker was a decent enough person before, but the pressure of the legacy isn’t something he can handle.
Why is Zemo always making and bringing them tea?Seriously? What is this Downton Abbey? Years ago that used to be a trope on soap operas. Someone would show up to discuss the dilemma of the day and the host would ask within five seconds “would you like some tea?”
I’m with Ted Lasso. No, I’ve never developed a taste for hot dirt water.
As my friend and healthcare journalist Cat Ferguson has told me, the brain and body separation is largely a myth. I wouldn’t mind having a long discussion with her on that point. Mind-Body dualism is in no way, shape, or form a myth. Certain aspects of it are over-hyped – mainly the “superhero” effects the mind can force the body to do – but to call it a “largely a myth” because you can physiologically explain the most common and base examples? gtfoh. So dismissive it’s largely insulting.
“Bruce Banner of The Incredible Hulk”Minor nitpick. Bruce never took the serum (or any version of it). You may be thinking of Blindly, who was injected with some variant of the serum before his transformation into the Abomination.
-I wonder if Ryan Coogler and his team were consulted for the scenes involving the Dora Milaje. Especially the way they fought. The reason I ask is because we just saw what happened with Joss Whedon and Wonder Woman and the Amazonians in Justice League and how it seemed like he disregarded some things that were established in the previous Wonder Woman movie.
-That final shot of Walker standing holding a bloodied shield was excellent, I immediately pictured Steve Rogers shedding a tear, I wonder how the US Government will react to that
Tangent-question: in the MCU, do the Avengers exist anymore?
After really not caring for last week’s, I enjoyed this episode immensely. Even though the “well intentioned radical” is a fairly common trope, the actress playing Karli is doing an amazing job making her character both sympathetic and believable.
As someone who was originally against the Blip idea, and wished that they had the world mind-wiped in some way after Endgame, this show is making great strides in getting me back on board. I still think an event like that would disrupt life in a manner way greater than portrayed, but at least this show is making an effort to show both the personal and bureaucratic entanglements that it caused.
I also really enjoyed seeing the intro with Bucky as I was worried from the one-liner a few weeks ago that his time as the White Wolf would be treated as a joke.
I think my only complaint is some sequences are shot in a way that is….I don’t know….a little confusing? I’m thinking of the end when Sam is confronting Karli and gets a notification that Walker is close by.
Altogether a solid instalment, and the framing of that last scene was incredible. Rating: B+
I think part of the issue here is that WV was supposed to have taken place mere weeks after “The Return” and this is taking place a few months after. That’s a whole-order-of-magnitude different in terms of Gov’t response time. Also, WV was very small scale and contained, whereas FatWS has literally been all over the world. All that said, the actual dialogue of the show has, at times, been CW-quality-at-best, and that’s really let down the plot and show, especially after WV had such few missteps. A perfect example is what IS the deal with Walker’s Cap – is he publicity? Is he on special missions? Why is Levar his only backup and the guy isn’t even wearing a helmut and appears to have no weapons? This is some of the stuff that would take all of 2 min to resolve, but would go a long way towards building this world. Finally, that lost shot of Fake-Cap with the bloody shield was chilling.
My theory about the knives; Since the fights were taking place at what appears to be the Global Refuge places which is also the Flag Smasher’s base/home, they probably preferred not to destroy what little they actually have or harm their fellow residents with firearms, so they opted for melee weapons.
I think there are a lot of things that have been done right in this series so far and I agree with your take on most of them. The main one I would disagree on though is that if they wanted to make John-New-Cap more nuanced they needed to lean far harder on his former service. We’ve encountered in the past too many generic military guys who end up fighting our heroes to play coy with his service to the country. If they HAD put in a flashback, or something more explicit than the interview where it clearly felt like they were puffing him up, then I think viewers could get closer to how you are viewing his character—this man who has seen loss in doing everything he could in service to his country. To feel he couldn’t fill the shoes of Steve no matter how hard he tried as he came up against super powered beings not having something to level the playing field.
That they had Battlestar posit he might have saved his men had he been juiced up might be the excuse he needed, but also including the “they weren’t even supersolidiers” to me negated that excuse and did in fact make him look pitiful or deficient in a way not fixed by being super strong. They piled on this with our heroes mocking him during the fight. They even used the old-school camera warp to show his psychiatric distress but if they didn’t want him to just look “crazy” then they should have had a moment of it in a previous episode. If when they did so they perhaps added the remembered sounds of battle it would have really nailed that take. Somewhat like in Punisher season one where you had a serviceman who they clearly put out there as traumatized and making the wrong decisions because of it. Of course if they played John that dramatic we couldn’t root for every time he takes a beating.
It’s almost like Marvel decided they already had one conflicted antagonist in the Flagsmashers and didn’t want to go the full “reality is messy” and backed off that take for John to just have him be a maniac now.
Hate that they did him Ray Fisher style in the second episode, but overall this has been a great series.
Really bad episode. What is this even about? Why should we care about a perfect world Marvel’s been ‘smart’ enough never to show us – not even in flashbacks. Mackie and Stan are almost never allowed to become a buddy team – there’s always other characters in the way. Karli Morgenthal is just ugh – a whiny, charismafree bore with a ridiculous ‘plan’. The action scenes are really badly edited so you can’t tell what’s being done exactly. This whole series is such a mess it isn’t even remotely funny.
“it’s interesting that Bucky was given court-mandated therapy while Walker was allowed to roam free, despite holding many heavy memories.”But it isn’t really. John’s war experience left him considered a hero, and Bucky’s capture and mind manipulation left him considered a damaged man and potentially dangerous – who knew how much of Hydra’s handiwork was left in his mind? I mean, what would the public think if John, a medal-decorated soldier was receiving counselling for a moment he should be exceedingly proud of? Doesn’t fit the narrative the military sells in these scenarios. Bucky committed crimes as the Winter Solider, so there’s a greater need to show the public he’s doing some kind of penance to be redeemed.Of course, I recognize that just because you’re a hero doesn’t mean that the events that gave you that mantle don’t damage you in some way, but even today, mental health is still stigmatized and devalued. I was in a car accident that landed me in the hospital for 3 weeks, part of which was in intensive care and my discharge paperwork listed a referral to mental health services as “not applicable”. Yes, okay, please tell that to the driving anxiety that I am still fighting 21 years later.
Sebastian really delivered that opening scene. What range and emotion.
I (very) briefly dated a veteran. He was at the time we dated 35 and had spent 9 years in the Army. Like John, he refused to go to therapy and it was painfully obvious. how much he needed it. Not only to cope with what he had been through but to just have a toolset on how to live life outside of the army. His moods would wildly swing from one extreme to the other and any kind of confrontation would send him spiraling into a level of insecurity that was devestating to watch. I see this happen all the time with other veterans who don’t/won’t do the work. Therapy isnt a cure, even with Bucky he still struggles, still works at it – but he still tries and I think thats why Sam still respects him and reaches out to him
Appreciate you sharing this