The Flash: Armageddon concludes not with a bang but with a superhero ethics seminar
Mia Queen, the future Green Arrow, drops in for "Armageddon, Part 5"
TV Reviews The Flash
“Armageddon, Part 5" plays more like a protracted epilogue to the story that more or less wrapped up last week. It ties off a few loose ends and extends the crossover by coming full circle back to Green Arrow—although not the same one we met back at the birth of the Arrowverse. Aside for a few brief bursts, the fireworks show is over and it’s time for a drink and a chat.
That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem if the chatter in question wasn’t so familiar. We’re back to the old questions of what it means to be a hero, and whether killing is ever the right answer even if the result benefits the greater good. Barrels of ink were spilled on these conversations in comic books for decades before the Arrowverse launched almost ten years ago, and we’ve heard them many times on Arrow, The Flash, and other branches of the family tree. There’s no fresh spin to put on this ethical conundrum at this point, and the solution ends up being something of a cop-out anyway.
But before we get into all that, here’s the good news: Joe is back! And not just as unheard voice on the telephone this time. Jesse L. Martin makes his first appearance of the season, and he gives us the full Joe West experience. He’s moist-eyed when Barry joyfully embraces him, if a bit confused since he’s not yet aware that he was dead for a while. But he’s fired up when it comes time for his pep talk, absolutely scorching Barry and Iris for even considering letting Thawne die. Heroes are the choices they make, and Joe leaves no ambiguity about where he stands.
Is letting someone die the same thing as killing them? Especially if they caused the event that is going to bring about their demise in the first place? That’s the real ethical dilemma here, but it’s only addressed in a few throwaway lines. Joe is the voice of moral authority, and he says heroes save people no matter what, so that’s the end of the discussion. For everyone except Despero, that is. A party guest who has definitely overstayed his welcome, Despero chews down the few pieces of scenery still standing in his insistence that Thawne must die. This actually makes the quandary much easier to resolve: If Despero is against saving him, it must be a good idea.
Enlisted as his unwilling ally in this mission is Mia Queen, the offspring of Oliver Queen and Felicity Smoak and the Green Arrow of the future, who has come back to 2021 in search of her missing brother. Despero takes over her mind briefly, so we get a brief burst of arrow action before Iris and Cecile get her to snap out of it. That leaves Barry to defeat Despero in one of the more cartoonish super-battles in recent memory. It’s an important one in Flash history, however, as it’s the first to feature the golden boots, a creation of Chester’s that somehow allows the Flash to sever Despero’s connection to his home world’s flame.
The anticlimactic resolution to the Thawne conundrum involves permanently (pause here for laughter) removing his speed and locking him away in an ARGUS facility. You see, taking away Thawne’s speed prevents him from disappearing from the timeline because of…reasons. I’m sure they were mentioned and made perfect sense. But don’t worry: a brief glimpse of what’s to come when the show returns from winter hiatus reveals more timeline shenanigans to come.
In the end, it’s time for Team Flash to party. And for another Barry speech about heroism. And for Damien Darhk to stick around long enough to have one final reunion with his daughter in some sort of neon limbo. And for Chester and Allegra to flirt awkwardly. And for Joe to be the dad everyone needs. The timeline bends, but it never quite breaks.
Stray observations
- A couple of cinematic homages this week: The reveal of Barry’s new boots was preceded by Chester opening a case to reveal something unseen glowing within, ala Pulp Fiction. And the episode concluded with a close-up of a black-and-white photo revealing Bart and Nora present at New Year’s Eve 2014, in a nod to The Shining.
- Mia Queen’s quest is left unresolved, perhaps to be continued in some other corner of the Arrowverse, wherever Diggle is being the Green Lantern.
- It’s time for a long winter’s nap, but The Flash will return on March 9, 2022.
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Iris continues to be insufferable, giving Mia a speech about how killing is never justified, even to save a loved one.
Which is an interesting moral stance from the woman who killed Savitar back in The Flash season 3 finale.
Shocked and delighted at the Nora Darhk cameo. The Darhks are easily my favourite family in the whole Arrowverse and it was very nice of Flash to give their storyline (another, some would say unneeded) resolution. Of course, Joe immediately adopted her and became her new father.Is The Flash writing Ray and Nora better than Legends payback for when Legends wrote Wally better than The Flash?
“Is The Flash writing Ray and Nora better than Legends payback for when Legends wrote Wally better than The Flash?”I can’t speak for Nora, but I will not stand anyone saying that Legends did not write Ray well! Not our Ray-Ray!
I adore him, but the later seasons really took out all of the nuance and turned him into a Himbo King. They did the same for Nate, Zari, Nora, Charlie and especially Mick. Compare the Ray and Mick of Seasons 1-3 to 4 onwards.I wanted to see him grow as a hero, but as the series got goofier it sidelined a lot of character development for most of the cast. It’s not fun to watch them be the butt of the joke and mess up missions and it shouldn’t feel out of character when they succeed. He doesn’t even get to be competent in his last Legends mission. I love the show and the characters, but I’m not blind to it’s flaws and failings.
If I were Joe, I would be very freaked out having been told I was dead. That sort of thing could happen ANYTIME.“You know, The Flash. Frost and Chillblaine isn’t that good.” “Double down.” “I mean that it’s hot garbage.” “Double down!” “You really need to get rid of it.” “DOUBLE DOWN!”Mia dropping the truth bomb on Iris.Was hoping this was another attempt at bringing in Green Arrow and the Canaries, but if two years has passed…“Only a sociopath would be angry at such a small thing.” That’s just it, Barry. To you it was a small thing. To Thawne it was the greatest moment of his life that you stole.They’re just pulling out all the stops in really making me dislike Joe.Hope that Barry saving Thawne blows up in his face…immediately. (Or, it looks like eight years ago.)Nora Dahrk. Now there’s cameo I didn’t expect.
Haven’t watched the show in a while but i was hoping they went down the Frost is kinda gay route. Would have been interesting to see how they managed a split personality character where one of them was gay and the other was straight. I thought they might be going that way when they paired them up with XS as they had great chemistry.
You stole most of these from Reddit like verbatim. Not cool.
Orrrrrr…that’s me on Reddit.
My hottest take is that Joe has always been terrible.
The Flash and the team are paramilitary vigilantes, so they have no authorization to kill except for the same reasons an ordinary person would have: self-defense, or defense of another. Even police officers and the military (when they’re run right) operate with strict protocols. But I haven’t watched this show in quite a while, so I don’t know if there’s anyone they answer to at this point.
Remember back in S2 when Harry showed up from Earth-2 and Joe walked in and just started firing bullets without waiting for any explanation?I thought of that when he harshly told Flash to go out of his way to save a guy who has done nothing but cause chaos for everyone on the show, who brought his current circumstances onto himself, and who promised to continue his reign of terror even facing death.Also why was Joe the one who walked Nora to another room to explain to her what happened. He was dead for the entirety of the last four episodes! Did he somehow get a better sense for what Dahrk sacrificed than Barry did in his quick conversation with him?Finally, this is like the 3rd or 4th time that Barry has defeated Thawne for good. The 3rd time Dahrk has sacrificed himself for Nora and had a tearful goodbye with her. I like seeing these characters again but for goodness sake, get some new damn ideas. You had Black Lightning, Mia, Desparo, Ryan Choi, Ray & Nora (somehow not in the same episode despite them being married in real life), Alex, Batwoman. And the best you can manage is another Reverse-Flash story? C’mon…This was such an odd event overall. Desparo and the guest characters all felt like afterthoughts, shoehorned in to try to make a by-the-numbers Flash story feel bigger than it was. The preview for the new episodes after the break looked better – seemed like it would focus on Bart and Nora travelling back to S1, back when the show was at its best.
To be fair, Harry was just wandering around STAR Labs unimpeded at the time, and Joe had every reason to think he was Thawne about to make another attack. Here, Thawne was safely imprisoned and not an immediate threat. As a not-real TV cop, that probably fits the rules of engagement based on Joe’s police training. (We’ll pause for several hearty chortles from the audience.)I really miss Harry.
It was a nice acting challenge for Tom Cavanagh to play a new Wells every season & he certainly was up to it. But a shame in retrospect to think that they could have just kept Harry & they never came up with another Wells that was as good a character as he was
Yeah I’m sure he was having fun but like, the Wellses hit a serious level of diminishing returns. Harry felt like a real person; HR and Sherloque felt like sitcom characters. Plus a show like this really needs a Harry around to keep it from getting too up its own ass.
I thought Nora’s “Why does this keep happening line” after she sees Damian was a nice enough acknowledgement that they keep going back to that well.
Speaking of Alex, this Supergirl fan was hoping Sentinel might show up for the final battle. The video-chat scene from the earlier installment established that she was around and presumably available. Still, I did like the golden-boots scene where the hero finally lives up to his insane power levels and curb-stomps his opponent. It always bugged me how many of Supergirl’s opponents were even slightly competitive against her in a fight when the vast majority should have been defeated in 1 second.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of the guest stars in this, the show’s eighth season, were from shows that the actors had either left or had cancelled from under them kinda makes the Arrowverse feel like it’s dying. I’m not saying it wasn’t good to see Black Lightning again, but maybe that could’ve been mixed with a few more people from Superman & Lois, a current Legend, or even a dimension-hopping Stargirl? Supergirl and Arrow couldn’t even get their leads. Batwoman was carrying a lot here, and it’s a fine line between “our history is rich and deep” and “our best days are behind us.”
Well, the actors from the shows that have ended are available. Also we have more emotional attachment to characters like Ray and Alex and Jefferson and the Darhks. And Mia Smoak … was also in this episode
That’s kind of my point. Crisis bridged all four shows and scoured the earth for everyone who’d ever been in a DC project. It ended up with representation from the most obscure corners of the comic adaptation empire. Armageddon felt like a who’s who of who’s still in Berlanti’s phone and is wide open on a Tuesday.
On one hand, yeah it seems kind of empty. On the other hand, I’m sure BC’s Covid protocols prevent people from jumping between sets willy nilly.
Hey, don’t forget that Ryan Choi showed up!Or, you know, DO forget about him, like the creative team seemingly did
I didn’t forget that Ryan Choi showed up, I just don’t care, like the creative team apparently didn’t really either since he had nothing of significance to do
One thing I appreciate about Eric Wallace is he’s trying to keep the shared universe alive, which is more than any of the other shows are doing currently *cough*Legends*cough*. Ryan’s role is interchangeable, but I think it was just there as fan service to pay off transforming him into the next Atom. Same with continuing Mia’s arc even though it had jack to do with the rest of Armageddon.
It’s so weird that they built him up as a paragon of something or other and then… decided to do nothing with the character.And then he shows up here and apparently we’re supposed to care? I mean, points for the Atom suit, but that’s about it.
I would guess they planned to have Ryan Choi join the Legends but then Behrad turned out to be more fun than expected & once he was resurrected he got Ryan’s spot. I don’t dislike him but especially with Ray still turning up he serves no very obvious purpose. It was not good when he had to jump into *Chester’s* storyline to even have anything to do & that was not much
The problem with Ryan Choi is the same problem with Ray. The CW can’t afford consistent VFX for the character. Same with Nate stealing up.
Ray and Nate don’t need special effects to be interesting, individually or together. I can’t say that for Ryan Choi
Ryan Choi: the paragon of being average
And wasn’t that a different timeline now? I thought the ATOM suit was great, but now than Barry fixed the timeline will we see it again?
I’m generally fine with the mix they got, it felt like Black Lightning’s role was written specifically for the character but the rest were somewhat interchangeable roles. Possibly Routh and Ford were negotiated as a package deal for them to come up and film the Legends 100th episode as well. Given two of the cornerstone Arrowverse shows are gone now, there’ll probably be a lot more of these guest spots were characters continue their arcs on existing shows.
Well, Oliver Queen is dead, so there’s that.
Sure, but this is a comic book universe. He still had multiple scenes after that!
as like a ghost dude in the afterlife…
It’s pretty clear that with the exception of Batwoman, all of the guest actors/characters were from shows that have already been canceled. The logistics during the time of COVID to do a major crossover between shows that were filming concurrently would have been too much, so we got a series of short drop-ins from actors who were available.
kinda makes the Arrowverse feel like it’s dying.
It is dying. It’s been dying a slow death for several seasons now.
Creatively, I might agree. In actual fact, the CW has five different shows currently in production and at least two more on the docket. It’s kind of a Walking Dead situation where it’s ballooning to unmanageable size even as the ratings continue to sink.
I feel a distant memory that The Flash, certainly in comics, was once about something other than never-ending multiple timeline fuckups.
Well, for a while it was about never-ending Speed Force shenanigans. And before that, it was about a never-ending murder trial…
Maybe Mia will finally find William on a crossover episode of Legends of Tomorrow, since his abduction apparently involved time travel? I will be pissed off if we don’t get payoff of that though, especially since William was the best character and actor from the Green Arrow & the Canaries spinoff that didn’t happen
Yeah, given Mia seems to be “passing through” in this episode it makes me wonder if there’s some general plan about tying up her arc at some point on one of the shows. Given she’s now in the present and time travel is involved, it seems to open the doors to her appearing on any show in the future.To be clear, they also pulled a similar thing with Diggle last year and I believe that was just wheel-spinning while they figure out if they can use Green Lantern or not, but Mia’s story seems to have a decent shot at resolution.
Diggle’s whole situation last season seem to be more about CW wanting David Ramsay to guest-star(so they can promote his appearances) in return for letting him direct, and not about giving a shit about Green Lantern or even Diggle himself.
Or there’s contract commitments that need some tying up once these shows go off the air. Or – better yet – All the actors in this crossover are rep’d by the same agency …
The “Mia Queen shows up on a quest of her own” aspect of the episode reminded me of the experience of reading comics crossovers. They always wanted you to pick up one issue of a title you don’t read just so you could have “the full story,” whether or not the hero of that book was currently in part 3 of their own 8-issue arc which you have no clue about. Apparently we forgot to watch the first 2 episodes of Mia’s nonexistent Green Arrow show, otherwise we’d be caught up on how William got lost in time.
I was one of those foolish readers who bought *every* Secret Wars II tie-in comic – at least 3-4 every month, and that story went on for 9 months. So many comics I didn’t normally buy and didn’t care about. What was I thinking?
Always weird when they call themselves heroes. Seems like something you let someone else say.
Did Mia mention going to see Felicity? I thought Felicity was in Arrow heaven with Oliver.Why are there two different Noras on this show? Three if you count Barry’s mother, I guess.
Felicity is still alive in the present, it was future Felicity that was taken by the Monitor to meet Oliver.
2021 Felicity is still around right?(I didn’t really watch much Arrow so I could be wrong)
Felicity is currently raising Mia in a cabin in the woods. There are many Noras in the CWVerse, but Nora Dahrk is the best of the bunch, she’s a fairy godmother!
I thought somehow the cabin in the woods was gone after Crisis. Post-crisis Mia lives in the Queen mansion with her alive again grandmother.
At this point who can keep track of where the timeline is supposed to be.
When Iris gave Mia a clue to finding her brother, Mia said “I know where I can find a good hacker” and Iris said “Oh, so you are going to talk to Felicity.”
When DesperoMia attacked STAR Labs, was Nora’s bullet time dodge supposed to be her using the speed force? Because it made me laugh. Poor Candice Patton. She finally gets a brief bit of action, and it’s super goofy.’As a whole…. what was even the point of Armageddon? (Besides TheCW mandating a 5-episode arc?) Besides pointing out that we should have a Ray-Nora-Damien spinoff? That said, having Bart and Nora go all Legends on the timeline should actually be entertaining, and at least a different sort of story.
oh my fuck you are eight seasons in why are you still deciding if your hero has an absolute line around killing or not. it’s not even a new and more-dangerous-than-ever villain, it’s the same dickhead who’s been buzzing around the whole show.
I mean until they got the containment system going in season 1 , they didnt really have much of a problem killing.
Listen, Caitlin wanting to kill Thawne was the most interesting she’s been in years.
See, I can understand Batman’s no-kill policy. The way he operates and his mental state, it’s relatively easy to see him fall off the slippery slope. But Barry Allen is far more mentally stable, and if ANYONE deserved to be killed forever, it’s fucking Thawne. The fact that Joe, a cop, was so vehemently against putting down the man who has tried to destroy his children’s (and grandchildren’s!) lives multiple times feels really stupid. I did appreciate Allegra and Chester being brushed off because, yes, they are the new kids who only ever experienced Thawne in last season’s finale.Fuck, man, just use Batman Begins’ “I won’t kill you, but I don’t have to save you either” justification. The Despero “twist” was likely done because Comic!Despero is a tyrant, but it really doesn’t jazz with how he has been portrayed in this event. I did like the battle, even with the terrible CG.
The reasoning behind them is comic book bullshit, but I don’t care. Flash finally has his boots!I feel like Mia being in 2021 was not really fleshed out as much as it should have been, especially since she’s from 2042, not 2031. Nice to see Courtney Ford again, but does this mean Nora is no longer a Fairy Godmother?
Nora still had her trademark light blue jacket, which was her nod to the fairy godmother blue dress, so I assume she still is. I like to tell myself the color choice is because fairy godmothers are all Man City fans, but I’m a little biased.
Yeah, we’ve seen that Nora can change her Fairy Godmother outfit to something more casual, but it will still keep the same color scheme.
Ray mentioned that Nora was still making little kids happy all over the world…
Having now watched all five parts, it does seem like they could’ve cut to the chase a little sooner, condensed parts 1-3 and fleshed out more of the Reverse Flashpoint world and resolution with Thawne. I liked Armageddon overall, and it gives me hope for the rest of season 8, but the time with Despero feels wasted and the parade of guest stars feels oddly mashed together.Bless you Joe, you just found out you were dead and your first concern is Barry’s mental health instead of I don’t know, having an existential crisis? I still don’t think Green Arrow and the Canaries would’ve made it as a full series, but at the very least it deserved a one season mini or something to wrap up Mia’s story. Always a pleasure to see Kat McNamara back.Kudos for remembering Courtney Ford was also in town and getting her in, I don’t believe her appearance was previously revealed.I really hope they continue to lean into the idea that Chester/Allegra are the new kids and the inherent friction from things like Iris saying they don’t have a say in some matters. That just seems ripe for some interesting, organic drama given the very real way the cast has an old/new guard now.
Damien Darhk showing up at the beginning of the episode I found to be absolutely delightful. Also some Nora, that was nice too.
The scene between Neal McDonough and Jesse L. Martin justified this episode for me all on its own; that Damien got to say goodbye to Nora was a nice little extra treat.
This was dumb. They really should’ve let Thawne die. This was dumb. I don’t care about Chester and Allegra. This was dumb. Joe espousing morality was dreadfully wrong when it came to Thawne.This was really fucking dumb.
Does anyone care about Chester and Allegra? Who wants to see these scenes?
Well I guess this means Tom Cavanaugh is up for another guest appearance.
Joe’s angry speech to Iris and Barry reminded me of the heroes’ strategy meeting during Supergirl’s Season 3 finale (the Reign/Worldkillers arc). The context is different in that the villains’ enforcer is not depowered or in custody and the entire Earth is under threat. Still, when one character talks about eliminating Reign, Supergirl vehemently rejects that idea and emphasizes her no-killing rule. After her mother and J’onn explain to her how war works, she reluctantly backs down. I know it’s an old dilemma that comic book heroes have been struggling with for 80 years or so. Regardless, I find those scenes interesting, however repetitive they may be.
the full Joe West experienceNever go full Joe West
I agree that the content of Joe’s lecture was stupid, but Jesse L. Martin brought the dad voice and I loved it! It seems like they tried to make up for not having him in four episodes by letting him shine this week. They are almost forgiven.Mia Queen shot a canary call arrow at Frost and Allegra, right? That, right there, is the only thing that made me wish her Canaries series had happened. I am highly amused that this ‘we can’t kill’ episode had Damien Dahrk and his sacrifice roaming around the edges. Because those of us who love Legends recall that he had to sacrifice himself because the Legends response to a time demon attempting to break out of prison was to let him escape so they could kill him. It’s one of my most treasured ‘Legends are different’ choices. While the other shows tie themselves in nots trying not to kill the villain, Legends deliberately makes it possible even when they could lock the villain up. Never change, Legends!
Remember when beacon-of-wholesome-goodness Ray Palmer shrunk down to the size of a bullet and flew through a guy’s chest?
How many seasons before we see or even hear mention of Ryan Choi again? Or the Hall of Justice?
The Flash will be over by the time they remember again.
Team Flash was under no ethical obligation to save Thawne from his own bad choices, and in fact arguably had more of an ethical obligation to let nature take its course. Joe’s monologue was therefore the worst part of this episode, but unlike many viewers I’ve always found him morally vaccuous and inconsistent at best. That everyone else took him seriously was the most ridiculous part.
https://mattthecatania.wordpress.com/2021/12/15/the-flash-brings-armageddon-to-rivervale/
After eight seasons, we finally learn why he hates Barry so much! In another overdue moment, Caitlin decides they should just let Banana-Flash die for good this time. It’s mentioned how hsalF mysteriously resurrected every time they
thought he’d died, which reinforces how pointless this ethics conundrum is.
Since they’ve mentioned he has quadruple lobes, I was hoping they’d replicate Connor Hawke & Ray Palmer vs. Darkseid from “Rock Of Ages” but with Mia Queen & Ryan Choi vs. Despero.
While the mechanics of “Armageddon” don’t hold up to scrutiny, it was
still enjoyable to watch. That’s the big ineffable difference between it
& last season. Each episode had some intriguing novelty so it didn’t stall out on the stupid
Hopefully more Beeboverse series can do low-key crossovers too. Next Dr. Caitlin Snow needs to have a talk with Dr. Mary Hamilton about being railroaded into supervillainy.
Erstwhile, “Rivervale” finally made Riverdale as cuckoo bananas as people erroneously said it was! it may legitimutantly be the best the series has ever been.
Friends this whole crossover really wasn’t good. Sure it had its moments, but who among us doesnt feel Cress Williams was wasted in his appearance? Really everyone was. Thawne shows up at the end of the last episode to see Gideon and vow revenge and then…does nothing but whine and get his speed sapped? Also if there’s an avatar of the speed force, why isnt there one for the negative speed force? And which force was Zoom connected to?I’m terrified this is just the slow spiraling descent of the show. Rather than give us the team-ups with Supes or Batwoman or something cool this is what we’re going to get. And oh boy the West kids are back (yawn) for more hijinx (zzzzzz). Maybe the power of love will help them reset the timeline for the umpteenth time
Eh, I enjoyed it well enough. Not the best, but not the worst thing this show has done, and Thawne is always good. At this point, honestly, I’ll watch anything the CW puts on if it means Nancy Drew stays on the air, too.
“Mia Queen’s quest is left unresolved, perhaps to be continued in some other corner of the Arrowverse, wherever Diggle is being the Green Lantern.”So what was the point of taking precious time in the episode to show a scene from a dropped pilot? Why did they even need to mention Mia’s brother? Maybe this thread will be picked up in a future Flash episode?
I’ve always thought that Barry letting Thawne off the hook all the time is just silly. This should have been an easy out; they aren’t killing him, just letting what happens happen. No one should have felt bad for this one.
When Joe showed and yelled “BARRY! IRIS!” it felt like I had done something wrong even when the actual content of his lecture was dumb. It also reminded me Barry and Iris were raised as siblings.
Chester and Allegra being morally right was also not good. They spoke on the grounds that heroes have to be completely altruistic without taking into account they have no history with this guy. Barry has let Thawne go how many times now? Now the only thing happening to Thawne is a result of his own mistakes doing what he always does.
The Arrowverse is slowly dying let’s be honest
If they can bring in one more that’s on par with Superman & Lois and Stargirl, then they can justifiably claim they’re improving – by ending the old guard and replacing them with solid stand-alone series.
I don’t know. I trust hbo max way more than I trust cw with dc properties. They have the audience the budget and the marketing wave
removed
I kept waiting for Barry (and Iris) to reference the following when justifying not saving Thawne:
I did appreciate the Thawne/Caitlin conversation and its focus on season 1 events – working together at STAR Labs and Ronnie’s death. It feels like there has been more references to Ronnie in these first 5 episodes than in the previous 6 seasons combined.
So I assume AVClub gave up reviewing this series after Armageddon? No reviews for the rest of the season. Feels weird, after 7+ years of reading episode reviews/comments here for this show.