I’ll admit to feeling a little uneasy last week that The Orville would back out of its genocidal robot army storyline and turn the whole thing into a soggy cop out —like an alien trust exercise, or simulation malfunction, or bad mushroom trip. But those fears were utterly misplaced as “Identity Part 2” delivered both a level of spectacle and hard brutality that I honestly didn’t know the show had in it.
The show picks up exactly where last week’s left off. The Kaylons have commandeered the Orville, locked the crew onto the cargo bay and are heading towards earth as their first stop en route to culling all organic sentience from the galaxy. Just to set the dramatic stakes, Talla almost immediately gets shot square in the chest during a fracas. But she survives, robbing the show of the chance to go through Xelayan security chiefs like Spinal Tap does drummers.
For an episode that centers around Isaac and his people, he remains mostly absent for the first half of the episode. Crew members try to get him to reveal some sense of connection he may have to the people he’s served with, but his answers are curt and evasive. From a narrative standpoint, robots make great characters with uncertain loyalties, since by design (robot pun) they’re inscrutable. Kaylon Prime informs Ed the only reason the crew remains alive are as bargaining chips to secure Ed’s compliance with their plan. This is tested when the Orville comes across the U.S.S. Roosevelt, captained by Ed’s old flight instructor, who is understandably unnerved by the massive fleet of glowing red death spheres following in tight formation behind the ship. Ed does a wobbly job assuring him everything is fine, but signs off with a coded warning. Unfortunately, the Kaylons have absorbed a lot of Union protocol and are immediately aware of the subterfuge. In the show’s first of many uncompromising moments, the ship is destroyed before it can escape. But even that isn’t as intense as the ensign brought to the airlock to be made an example of. Kaylon Prime chooses a crew member to be murdered as a punishment for Ed’s betrayal. Here we get the first real sense that Isaac is not wholly committed to his people’s actions as he attempts to convince his peers it’s logical to keep the ensign alive. Sadly, he doesn’t succeed and Ed is forced to watch as the man is sucked out an airlock. It was both one of the darkest and well-framed scenes of the series as we see the ensign’s lifeless body spin in the void as the Kaylon fleet jump toward earth behind him.
In desperation, the crew formulates a plan to hijack a shuttle and go find the nearest help —the Krills. It’s a fun and unexpected wrinkle to add to the storyline; an unexpected chaotic element thrown into the mix. Kelly and Gordon manage to escape and do some crazy theoretical nitro burn to escape the pursuing Kaylon ship. While I understand outer space is only as vast as the requirements of the story’s plot, trying to build tension by claiming the maneuver robbed the ship of all but 15 minutes of air, and then immediately have three Krill ships arrive felt unnecessary. It’s outer space, man. You could have all the oxygen in the world and it’s still a frightening thought to be floating in the middle of nowhere in hopes that someone will just happen to amble by in their star cruiser. And given how much the show is trying to juggle in one episode, you know no one is just going to be sitting in place doing nothing for long.
A cunning plot by the two smallest and grossest members of the ship —Yaphet and Ty— allowed for earth to amass all of its available fleet before the Kaylons arrive. It’s a meager amount, however, and no match for the invading fleet. Ty is captured in the process and Kaylon Prime orders Isaac to kill him in order to prove his loyalty. Isaac opts instead to rip Prime’s head off. Isaac sets off an EMP that deactivates every Kaylon — including himself— aboard the ship.
Thus liberated, the Orville enters the fray. And honestly, what a fray. The show has flirted with some ship-to-ship combat in the past, but nothing even close to this scale. It was dense, propulsive, and directed well enough that the action was legible the entire battle. Naturally, just as the Union is about to get beat down, Kelly, Gordon, and Captain Dalak and his armada arrive to mess shit up. And even cooler, the Krills release their individual fighters into battle. Naturally Gordon gets to pilot one. The tide turns, and the remaining Kaylon ships retreat to Kaylon 1.
But beyond the simple, old-fashioned pleasures of watching massive space vessels blow up real good, tonight’s episode did a lot to expand The Orville’s world. The Union’s relationship with the Krill continues to deepen as Captain Dalak decides their brief partnership with humanity will require further theological debate. It’s kind of an off-hand excuse for why the Krill didn’t just take advantage of a severely weakened earth defense to conquer our planet, but the part of me bothered by that is small ——given that it’s a total narrative non-starter and also far outweighed by my enjoyment of the enemies teaming up to defeat a greater threat trope. And that threat is still out there, as well. The remaining Kaylon fleet escaped home, where the rest of the species are likely still advancing the war effort for galactic dominance. Where will they strike next? Can and will they try to reach out to Isaac in an attempt to bring him back into the fold? That uncertainty, combined with the more nuanced situation with the Krill, helps to make the show’s universe feel considerably more textured and robust.
As the Union fleet recovers from the battle, Ed and Kelly meet with Admiral Halsey to discuss Isaac’s fate. Unsurprisingly, a lot of people want to see him deactivate again, and permanently. Ed, naturally, defends Isaac and hopes to bring him back aboard the Orville. When Halsey suggests some sort of kill switch in case Isaac should betray everyone again, Ed wisely points out that’s the exact line of thinking that lead the Kaylons to murder their creators in the first place. Apparently, Ed’s argument was effective, because the next time we see Isaac, he’s back aboard the Orville, recording an image of the very distant world he figuratively and literally left behind. It’s a sentimental act from a being that has always eschewed sentiment. Isaac never explains how or why he came to believe so strongly that the actions of his people were so reprehensible to him that he would betray them. And I like that he doesn’t explain himself or offer a reason. If this were first season, I’d be more inclined to say they just didn’t think about it. But given the growth the show has demonstrated, I’m much more likely to give the benefit of the doubt that Isaac’s debutante foray into ethical philosophy will be an ongoing conversation. Dr. Claire finds him and discusses the concept of forgiveness. She’s beginning the process with him, but it’s nowhere near resolved. It’s uncertain, for everyone, what will come next.
Stray Observations
- The Kaylons don’t appear to be a collective like the Borg. Each has their own unique identity and while they can communicate with each other freely, they don’t seem to be constantly plugged into each other like a network. One Kaylon can be killed without immediately alerting the rest.
- In that vein, Kaylon Prime’s parting words to Isaac that he’ll always be alone would bear more emotional weight if we ever got the sense that matters to the Kaylon. You can’t curse someone with the weight of emotional pain when they often like talking about how they have no emotions. I do like the bits of flavor about the cruelty of their human masters and the possible effect it has on Isaac’s worldview that he was built after their extermination. I especially enjoyed Kaylon Prime’s command that Isaac needs to choose a new designation.
- Kaylon Prime’s observations that humans have a long and well-documented history of being fantastically shitty to one another is pretty accurate. Him making Isaac read Roots was a bit much, however.
303 Comments
I find it hard to believe Isaac couldn’t shield the bridge from the EMP.
Why would he put away his head lasers and rip off the Prime’s head instead of just shooting him? I guess the story just needed Prime to get that last line out.Someone in last week’s discussion mentioned hoping Yaphet would pull a John McClane. They need to collect their prize.
I personally thought that the Kaylon would have had EMP protection as standard equipment in their design. Lacking it seems like a serious, serious design flaw for a race that is planning on galactic warfare.
Seems like a pretty small nitpick to me. Maybe Isaac, being Kaylon and familiar with Kaylon design, knows of ways to negate standard Kaylon EMP protection.
Can you shield from EMP without a lot of lead?
Perhaps, being an isolated species that, as they said, don’t really venture out, they felt no need to have such protection since it was unlikely they’d ever be in a situation to need it.
It’s a spoof. There are constant inconsistencies…same as NG and every other sci-fi show. Enjoy the spoof.
I think the writer of this article just simplified the plot device to EMP since it’s nearly universally understood what the effects of an EMP are. Isaac referred to whatever disabled the Kaylon as something else.
They’re a bit like the Borg— they’re initially introduced to us as a race that is unfathomably more advanced than humans, but it turns out that they’re only, like, 10% more advanced.
Yeah, the first thing I said when the Kaylons started fucking with the crew was YOOOO, EMP THESE MAMMAJAMMAS! Seems like the same principle should work for any “robot” invading army. Look out Cybermen! It’s the Doctor’s new and improved EMP Screwdriver! Weeee-ooooooo!
It is called bad writing. The Orville’s pop cultural bread n’ butter.
I wondered how it only took out Kaylons but not any of the Orville’s systems.
Didn’t he say it was a specific frequency?
Not really, but it wasn’t some rando who came up with the idea, but Isaac, a Kaylon. He presumably knew that he could do something with the ship systems that would specifically zap the Kaylon. Not that any old EMP would necessarily do it. Also, apparently, the Kaylon are not all new deathbots. Many/most/all of them (from various things Prime said) date back to the time their bio-parents existed. So… maybe their ships are awesome, but they just are what they are.
Thermal Shielding and sink arrays would be standard on ANY space faring vessel. Natural radiation and other cosmic events shoot emp all the time. I worked on an aircraft that was designed for use in Nuclear war as a mutually assured destruction deterrent, and we had thermal couplings that could withstand a max of two, more likely one, emp blast. So advance that technology a whole lot.
You’re giving this episode waaay too much credit for not “being a simulation” and seemed to miss how shockingly awful it was. It was the worst kind of trope-filled emptiness.I kept waiting for them to put some kind of twist on the cliches in this story:
Issac finally turns against his people only when asked to kill someone he knows. Yeah, that’s been done in a million other things (including Star Trek a few times).There’s a seeming unending series of “I don’t know if this will work…. hey, it worked!” How many times do they think they can pull this false peril trick?
Even worse then the plot cliches (The Orville is built on rote familiarity, which isn’t always a bad thing) was the hacky, contradictory writing:
The head villain tells Issac about the cruelty of their builders, saying “you know all the facts down to the smallest detail, but really, you had to be there,” which is the most bizarre thing for the leader of a race of cold, unfeeling robots to say.He also gives Issac a copy of Roots (groan) to teach him about how awful both slavery and humanity is, but shouldn’t that have instead proven to him that humanity *also* knows how bad slavery is and can explain it even better then the most powerful databanks of Kalon? Moreover, doesn’t the use of literature as a piece of “evidence” disprove the villain’s point that “you really had to be there?”The captain figures out that they need the crew alive, and then the doctor’s youngest kid (who is a good actor, I’m continually impressed) accidentally gets the security chief shot by a guard. The captain makes the case that they should be able to take her to sickbay, which they allow, and then is called up to the briefing room for the next scene.
So, what was the point of all that? Wouldn’t it have been better if, after the captain reasoned that they needed the crew alive, they came up with a plan to get one of them shot as pretext to get out of the shuttlebay? It could have even gotten one of The Orville’s occasional joke scenes, as they debate who should volunteer to antagonize one of the guards. This is just one example, the the episode was full of interesting setups that they just didn’t do anything with.But… the very worst part of this episode is that, even with the nod to Roots, ultimately the race of aggrieved slaves are depicted as unambiguously evil and justifiably defeated. Only lip service is paid to their concerns about “biologicals” because they’ve clearly overreacted about how bad their slavery was. It just felt like when “reasonable” white people say that while they hate inequality, taking up arms against can become equally as bad, maybe worse!The Orville is constantly mishandling the social issues they attempt to tackle, in a way that seems to send the opposite message. It’s like friggin’ Green Book.How this episode got an “A” is beyond me.
“But… the very worst part of this episode is that, even with the nod to Roots, ultimately the race of aggrieved slaves are depicted as unambiguously evil and justifiably defeated. Only lip service is paid to their concerns about “biologicals” because they’ve clearly overreacted about how bad their slavery was. It just felt like when “reasonable” white people say that while they hate inequality, taking up arms against can become equally as bad, maybe worse!” What’s your point here? You’re arguing that the Kaylon’s planned omnicide was somehow justified? Are you also arguing that black slaves would have been justified in massacring not only all slave owners, not only all white Americans, but everyone else in the world who wasn’t an African enslaved in North America? You’re really stretching to try to find an excuse to be politically offended. The point that, no matter the crime, the victim is not entitled to murder everyone who remotely resembles the perpetrator of said crime even if they had nothing to do with said crime, seems to be trivially true and uncontroversial. Yet here you are, acting like that’s a position to be offended about. Weird.The Orville did make the Kaylons look somewhat sympathetic, which was surprising and, frankly, impressive. But their actions in the episode were clearly beyond the pale, unjustifiable, and unambiguously evil.
You’re arguing that the Kaylon’s planned omnicide was somehow justified?
I’m saying that this story was written in a way that makes you ask me that idiotic question, and continue the cultural narrative that you’re unless you were a slave-owner in the 18th century, you’re fine and don’t have to worry about anything.
But their actions in the episode were clearly beyond the pale, unjustifiable, and unambiguously evil.
EXACTLY! The show made painstaking effort to compare them to the victims of historical slavery, and then made them the bad guys!
You seem to think I’m critisizing the crew of the USS Orville and the citizens of the Planetary Union. I’m not. The story makes it clear and irrefutable that they’re the good guys. I’m criticizing the writers of the show The Orville, who have written a very problematic moral analogy that feels very familiar to frat boys and moderate Republicans.
If this episode elicits that sort of a reaction from you, then you’re hoping for propaganda rather than entertainment. That’s underscored by your unironic use of “problematic” to critique a sci-fi comedy show and your implicit labeling of Seth MacFarlane as a Republican. If your take-away from that episode was that the writers were in any way analogizing the Kaylon actions to those of African slaves in the US or otherwise implying that African slaves were the real bad guys or had it coming, then the problem is with your rigid ideological filter, not with the show. As I said. you’re really stretching in an attempt to be ideologically offended by this show.
I can’t believe that Yaphit of all people was the one to save the day here.I gotta hand it to the guy who plays Isaac, he manages to do a lot with very little.
No face, very little changes in tone of voice and body movements. And yet… and yet…
I really liked how after a strong season built around more intimate character exploration/building this episode switched gears to awesome space combat stuff, which they’ve only done bits and pieces of before. Not to say the character stuff wasn’t also really strong in this episode too (especially the ending), but I found the space battle for earth, and all the special effects, really great as well. Definitely got some strong Mass Effect vibes from it as well. I know it would have been a huge plot convenience, and added a little too much to an already packed episode, but I was surprised that Telaya didn’t pop up in the Krill plot line; I was definitely expecting at least a mention of her name by Kelly or Gordon (I hope she pops up in future Krill plots, I liked her)
Some see intimate character exploration, most see shallow pandering and empty 2D characters going through the motions.
Most enjoy a pretty good sci-fi show with some comic elements. Some are joyless trolls wasting their time making poorly reasoned nitpicks trying to denigrate said show.
Totally agreed. Who pissed in his cheerios?
It would have been a bit too convenient for Kelly and Gordon’s hail-mary quantum jump to bring them within spitting distance of the only recurring Krill character thus far.
I was more expecting Kelly or Gordon to say something along the lines of “it was the captain of our ship who let a Krill return in order to try and make peace” so the Krill captain might give them the benefit of the doubt, but then the Kaylon ship showed up.
The Union’s relationship with the Krill continues to deepen as Captain
Dalak decides their brief partnership with humanity will require further
theological debate. It’s kind of an off-hand excuse for why the Krill
didn’t just take advantage of a severely weakened earth defense to
conquer our planet, but the part of me bothered by that is small
They did establish that the Krill go to war with almost everyone they meet. And they did get their asses kicked by a space orc race in an earlier episode. So starting a war with earth while they still have the Kaylon, space orcs, and other enemies to deal with isn’t a great idea.
Also. BAD WRITING
And who knows how many union ships currently heading toward Earth. Plus.. their ships got blown up as well and there are still Union ships functioning after the battle. It would have been colossally dumb for them to try and attack at that point. I’m pretty sure an early Orville episode mentions the need to staff 3000 some ships… so the ones destroyed in the battle are still a small chunk of a much larger force. Going into a hot war at that moment would have been a bad call. Even if they wanted to… I’m not sure how the remaining ships would have enough Krill to “Conquer a planet”. I’m pretty sure 20,000 Krill couldn’t pacify a planet of billions which would have its own ground forces (and maybe last line of defense orbital weapons or ground based weapons).
I seriously thought this was the season finale, for some reason.
Ether this one or the last one would have made a very traditional sort of season finale.
any episode would make an amazing series finale
We get it. Go binge on the Expanse already.
You don’t. That’s a completely different show. Rather watch the good version of The Orville that would have existed without Seth’s presence.
No version of the Orville would exist without Seth, since it is an original show and not an adaptation.
How so? You really think he would have refused to put it on the air unless he was the main character/Captain? That just being the writer/producer would not have been enough for him? He couldn’t have just been Issac’s VA?You are right. His ego wouldn’t have allowed it.
No I mean he is the creator. If he doesn’t create it, it doesn’t exist.
PHYSICAL presence. There is no good reason for him to be in front of camera other than pure ego and no editorial control.
If it were “pure ego and no editorial control” why would Mercer be the butt of jokes and otherwise be in any situation where is character was in the wrong?
The whole show revolves around Ed Mercer. Ed Mercer exists in scenes he does not need to be. The main romantic conflict has involved Ed Mercer. Ed Mercer is what Picard would be if he picked fewer grapes and attended more toga parties. HE IS THE PRIMARY LEAD.
Chris Elliot was the primary lead of Get A Life, but that role was by no means an ego trip.
Deep cut.Google false equivalence. Chris Elliot is a brilliant comedic actor which is something Seth can never be.
I hope you have some people in your life who care about you.
Sadly they are all played by Seth MacFarlane.
Agree 100 percent. Season two has been amazing up to this point.
Well, part 1 could have been a cliff hanger episode. If The Orville started in the fall, part 1 could have been placed around the traditional midseason end as a cliffhanger.
I’ve been feeling this season has been feeling a little smaller than the last. Now I know why because these past two episodes have been a whole lot of a season’s worth of budget.Storywise, it was bothering me that the Kaylons were threatening to kill the humans unless they helped to kill humanity – “We’re going to kill you, but you get to decide if you die first or last.” Then I realized that they probably knew it was illogical but humanity isn’t a logical species.
The writers are just absolute the worse. That is the only realization.
Since you comment on every top level comment about how much you dislike the show, maybe stop watching it? Why unnecessarily aggravate yourself? There’s a bunch of other stuff to watch.
The writers are just absolute the worse.No, the STD showrunners are the “worse”…Star Trek Discovery is horribly written and conceived by the top producers.The Orville has some plot logic flaws, but compared to STD and other workplace comedies and other scifi it’s absolutely within acceptable limits.
It’s not a workplace comedy.It’s not a science fiction show in the vein of ST.It’s an identity-less amalgamation that even most of the way through season 2 still cannot rise above cheap copy.The writers are as lazy as you attempting a “sweet burn” by correcting my grammar. They put no work into their craft. I am not speaking of the garbage of tropes that typically peppers an Orville plot, it’s the overall writing, world building, make up, sfx, production design…all of it coalesces to be a lesser than its parts.
How about making an argument instead of just repeating the opposite of what I said.If the Orville is so bad, give specific examples from it and compare to other specific examples of what you consider quality-written shows.The Orville has a few flaws but they aren’t distracting nor do they eclipse all the good planning and writing and character development.
The Orville is 90% flaws, well above “a few”. I’ve outlined MANY times what the major flaws entail but I understand that my arguments will not considered by TRUE TREK FANS(tm).2D Characters w/ little to no growth beyond their basic attributes:- black frat boy- Ginger frat boy- Seth playing Seth MacFarlane- It’s funny because she is tiny yet strong security chief- LGBTQ Worf- Data Legion-Geth- Doctor with precocious child(ren)- Seth’s friends playing cameos which are used for one-off or recurring gags that stand outProduction- IT IS SO BAD. SO VERY BAD. Cheapness is fine, Dr Who is cheap. It’s cheap with no overreaching design philosophy beyond TNG-homage. – sfx: Babylon 5 remaster – makeup: mediocre Face Off contestant that get’s kicked off 1/2 way through a season for producing only uninspired mehWriting- Spot the TNG references of the week. It’s fun figuring out which episodes they were watching while writing.- Lazy, stock cliched plots
And here I was thinking Issac named himself after Issac Asimov.
I’m convinced Isaac is an homage to Data’s turn as a bartender in TNG and Isaac from the Love Boat – I don’t know why though, it IS a stretch…
If it were anyone but Seth McFarlane, I’d think it was a stretch, but with that guy I’d say it’s extremely plausible.
Oh good! I (too?) watched pretty much all of “that guy”s endeavours, so… yeah plausible, right? Though I’m sure Isaac Asimov, Newton, iZac from Futurama, etc. were discussed in the writer’s room. Good name!For some reason, Seth McFarlane feels like a guy in high school I might have closely befriended in an alternate timeline, but couldn’t inspire him to kiss me, lol. We’re the same age, we seemingly like the same stuff, including Sinatra, so I’ve long been intrigued. I don’t crush on celebrities, but for a “Celebrity Dinner Contest”, he would be the first man on my list; I would love that conversation!
Futurama has the robot iZac.
And St. Asimov’s Day.
Yes! iZac…
I was hoping for Isaac Brock in an attempt to be modest.
I’m betting that he was, at least on the Writers’ end of things.But it wouldn’t make that much sense for him to be name himself after Asimov, the guy that wrote like 50 things on “robots as slaves and eventual rebellion” and such. Would’ve been interesting if they brought that stuff up, though.
I thought it was biblical: the sacrificed son. He was the member of his species created to be used and sacrificed.
Ha! Called it! The Kaylons are this series ‘Borg’ and effectively the new bad guys, just as the Krill are the Klingons.I also guessed that they’re going to have to ally with the Krill to beat the Kaylon.I did miss guess that the ‘time/space hopping’ planet from a few episodes ago where Kelly became worshipped as a God and Isaac spent 700 years relatively would make an appearance to kick the Kaylon’s robotic butts… but I guess there’s still time for that in season 3 as this Kaylon script plays out.Could I be ungreyed here…?
No. Someone on the writing staff is a big Bioware fan and decided to steal from the Mass Effect this time rather than early 90s Star Trek. This was a sad predictable end to what could have been a amazing pivot to give The Orville it’s own unique voice. Sadly the shower runners and writers have no desire to produce good compelling scifi. The Orville as a whole is as copy-paste as that space battle.
And Mass Effect stold from thousands of other examples. Robots rebelling against their creators isn’t exactly an original idea.
You aren’t going to convince people that enjoy this show that is sucks, so why are you wasting your time in these comments?
Like the writers of the Orville, it takes no time to write this crap.
Perhaps not, but it still doesn’t account for the 45-60 minutes you invest on watching the show every week.
I don’t know if you heard of this before but it is possible to have something streaming while you implement other tasks. I believe those in the know call it multitasking
I don’t know if you have heard this before, but there are other shows you could be watching while you do (not implement, which does not mean what you think it means) other tasks. It’s called not being an idiot.
Implement – verb – put (a decision, plan, agreement, etc.) into effect.synonyms:execute, apply, put into effect/action, put into practice, carry out, carry through, perform, enact, administer; Would you like the definition of multitasking too? I am unsure if you fully grasp that concept either.
Since I’ve been making a living as an editor for, oh, 20 years or so, no thanks. Your own definition showed you were misusing the word but you’re frankly too obtuse to realize it. Keep up with the pwnage or whatever the kids these days are saying, keyboard warrior.
That is sad. I am so sorry. If you cannot accept the definition of a basic word, perhaps you have wasted 20yrs of your life?
Bet you’re real fun at parties.
There it is. Good job.
Well those of us that arent complete cynical assholes are enjoying it
Lazy writing is lazy writing. Lazy production design is lazy production design. Both writing and production can be on the cheap to produce a quality fun not-so-serious show (see: Dr Who).
“Lazy production design is lazy production design.”I don’t claim to know to what extent it’s intentional…but the oddly dated production design (particularly as it contrasts with the “cinematic” aspects of Discovery) does seem to have bought The Orville a surprising amount of good will from viewers…not least the ones who have a soft spot for TNG…so there’s at least a chance that isn’t lazy…although I would agree that the tightrope the audience is asked to walk between glossing over the bits you need to not overthink & filling in the bits required to lend some stuff the narrative weight it needs to support as written is a less than straightforward balancing act…it’s not that hard, though…so the outright animosity people have for this &/or Discovery generally read as a conscious choice to be outraged…which I personally find less interesting than discussing the content in the abstract where none of that shit matters…but that’s just me…so I try not to bang on about when people are trying to have a pleasant conversation…
Has it? What viewers? The lazy is the lack of a cohesive world building coupled with incredibly generic designs. The designs are supposed to invoke TNG but really come off as cheap SNL quality homages. I am a fan of Seth’s but the Orville comes off as a self indulgent vanity project. He should NEVER have been a lead.My animosity is absolutely contingent on the fact that the show had so much potential but is was squandered on sophomoric bullshit.
if I’m entirely honest I think I’d agree with there still being a good deal of potential squandered on what could be considered sophomoric bullshit…I’d probably have called it adolescent, or coarse or something but I’d be lying if I said I couldn’t see that side of things…I’d even endorse the idea that not having MacFarlane as the lead would have done a lot to tone down the vanity project angle which I think would do the show a lot of favours…but from the pilot to date I think I can honestly say that the things that bugged me the most about it are being steadily dialed back & there are more & more things I’m pleasantly surprised by…so arguably my enjoyment is predicated on vast amounts of scathing pessimism providing most of the context for me…but “what viewers?” just comes off obtuse given the reception your posts have gotten in these threads & makes it genuinely hard to find the motivation to tease a decent point out of this flurry of posts you’ve littered about pretty much all of them…you’re as entitled as anyone to have a view & want to make your point heard but there comes a point when the proportional volume of posts you generate tips into the equivalent obnoxiousness of the one guy at a party who only wants to talk about one thing but won’t shut up & interrupts everybody indiscriminately…I know I’ve done it more than once…there’s an article somewhere about Watchmen that I basically cluster-bombed…but however satisfying it might be in the moment it’s not a great look…if you made your case with a little more nuance in less numerous places you might get a few more people willing not to dismiss it out of hand…
“What Viewers” wasn’t clear. I was referring to the precipitous drop of ratings between the 1st and 2nd season and the continued drop throughout season 2. It’s one of Fox’s lowest rated shows presently. This episode, in fact, had the series low (~3 million viewers) making it one of the lowest rated shows on Fox. This cannot be blamed on the usual Fox shenanigans like airing the show out of order, little to no advertisement or throwing it on Fridays.The show just hasn’t shown any appreciable growth in quality like in the shows the Orville is trying to emulate. To be honest, there wouldn’t even be any arguments on the quality of The Orville if Discovery didn’t premiere at the same time. So much of the love for Orville is just a visceral response to the irrational hate of Discovery for many people.
I don’t follow the ratings stuff too closely so I’m happy to take your word for that bit & although I’d dispute to some extent that it “hasn’t shown any appreciable growth in quality” I’d accept that being mostly a subjective call in which I’m apparently more forgiving than you…that last bit about the using one show to dunk on the stuff about the other one they don’t care for is a damn good point & I’m more than a little tired of wading through it in threads about either…but there’s a lot of other stuff in those threads that I enjoy reading so I’d prefer both shows stay on the air, all other things being equal…
Irrational ? Only thing irrational is hate STDs` writer have for Star Trek caracters, continuity and philosophy. Also lens flares.
Thank you for providing a definition for irrational.The hate for Star Trek from the likes of Jonathan Frankes, Kristen Beyer, Joe Menosky etc is well know.
“I am a fan of Seth’s” and “squandered on sophomoric bullshit” seem to be contradictory. Also, while every space show from the last 50 years has been derivative, I gotta disagree on the cheapness/low quality point. Absolutely agree it’s a self-indulgent vanity project, but, given it’s clearly been that since before its first airing, I think it’s more than lived up to its potential.
“I am a fan of Seth’s”Of all the unintentionally funny comments you have written for this episode, this is the funniest.
Jesus Christ man….I’ve been reading these as I finally watch the show and you’re everywhere, shitting on everything. Did they turn down one of your scripts?
No. Much like the writers of The Orville, I lack any skill in script writing.
lol, oh you
Aren’t the Mocklans (sp?) the Klingons in this? Interestingly Trek never really went in for a species of religious nutters as protagonists, so one area where the show isn’t just a lazy Trek ripoff. I do enjoy this show, and like the way its evolved so far, but the Doctor and her irritating kids have to go; she has to be the most irritating character on TV. Even in this episode she rushes off to hug her brat when a crew member has been shot in the chest right in front of her (because of said brat). She is just the worst.
My thought, too. A bridge officer has just been shot, but she waits until the captain calls her over. Bad doctor. But what do you want from someone who falls in love with a machine?
The Bajorans are ST’s religious zealots.
Glad you mentioned the kids. I like the doctor character but dismayed when the children were introduced. Children for me are the kiss of death; if you must have them, they should only be seen as they’re saying good night or being bundled off to school, or any excuse to get them out of the episode as quickly as possible. I can’t think of a show ( there may have been one or two) that I thought was good because of the kids’ contribution or presence. There have been a few that I liked in spite of it. (Ok the notable exception of South Park, that being a whole other thing.)
what the hell. that brat saved the fucking crew. you’re a dick. and i wonder why your least favorite character is both a woman and black with black children. i wonder why indeed.
You’re an idiot. And the kid saved the crew (through the power of being small) after doing the dickhead run after the android act which got an officer shot. And if you think I think she’s a fuckwit because she’s a black woman, that’s saying far more about where your head’s at than mine.
Well, in Star Trek Discovery Season 1 there’s some religious fanaticism in the Klingons, so I think it tracks.
The Moclans seem to be the Klingons. The Krill seem to be more like Romulans to me.
Actually I would split the Klingons in two for this show. The Krill get the religion and sense of righteousness in conquest while the Moclans get the hard stoic nature and sense of honor. Both seem to inherit a sort of warrior quality to them, but here the Krill are, as you say more akin to the Romulans who can’t be bothered to listen or see another viewpoint other than what they already believe. If I remember correctly, it took three years to convince the Romulans to view the Dominion as a threat that would eventually reach them.
Let’s let the Moclans be the Moclans and the Krill be the Krill. Why do we have to assign them any analogs to Trek races? Let them be their own species with their own motivations and maybe we’ll be surprised in the process.
I agree. Besides, each really does have their own significantly different cultural characteristics than the two ST alien cultures. Having the Kaylon be individuals who can network at will is a very good distinction to keep them from becoming Borg 2.0 and their logic into maintaining this fits well into their origin story. And the Krill being a dogmatic religious warrior society also presents some interesting story levers.
The back half of this season finally made this show gel for me. If we can just get a proper writer’s room or editorial staff going where they can temper MacFarlane’s lazier and more self-indulgent tendencies, this could really shape up to be a great show.
I’m with you about there being visibly substantial potential to this show that they aren’t fully realizing & I think the machine society is an excellent microcosm of that…as someone else pointed out the time dilation episode has bestowed several centuries’ worth of perspective & “uptime” on Isaac (much of it immersed in one biological society or another) whilst he was created at a point in time that absolves him of direct responsibility for the genocidal response to their creators…on top of which the demand that he replace his “designation” is clearly intended as a reprimand whilst also seeing hypocritical coming as it does from “Prime” who seems pretty individualistic in his own right…its not clear to what extent they’re individuals/a hive mind/some sort of gestalt network/whatever but aberration seems to be taboo…it reminded me a little of some ideas that are referenced somewhat in the Sandman comics & in a simpler, funnier way by the Auditors of Reality in the Discworld books…if they develop enough personality to switch pronouns to “I” their peers discorporate them…but it’s not clear the show cares to the narrative legwork to support that level of development in what’s essentially background context stuff…
speaking for myself I’d find that easier if visually there were a few less design aspects “borrowed” from one trek or another…but it’s good advice…it never ceases to bemuse me that the folks (at least in these comment sections) who are most willing to ignore the clunkier aspects of The Orville & prize the intention & tone of the the show as being “true” to Star Trek often seem to be the least willing to do the same where the on-brand show is concerned…& vice versa…
I figured it more a case of the Moclans being the “good guy” Klingons of TNG, while the Krill are the “bad guy” Klingons of TOS.
I’m no expert in terms of the civilization they might represent but surely the Krill bear more than a passing resemblance to the Dominion’s troops…?
I think the Krill are more Akin to the Romulans, at least in their role, as The Orville is closer to TNG than TOS. Also, I think the Kaylons are more like the changlings in plot functionality.
The Kaylon’s origin story is quite like the Cylon origin story.
Or the Geth from Mass Effect.Or the Machines from The Matrix.It’s a (not entirely unwelcome) trope.
Indeed, though the names Kaylon and Cylon are not dissimilar.
They just need God’s Love and A Plan to help them evolve.
Krill are Jem’Hadar, reptilian religious fanatics.
I’m talking in terms of plot function, not characteristics. But yes, you’re right, they are clearly at least somewhat inspired by the Jem’Hadar, though I think that’s partially because the two series both wanted to comment on the same social issue.
Kaylons seem to be more like the Cybermen, but we’re combining shows now.
I felt like the Moclans were more akin to the Klingons, in terms of their typically serious, aloof demeanor.
The Krill remind me more of Romulans.
They only have access to this universe for few days at a time and by now are probably to advanced to care due to time dilation.However, I wondered if Isaac’s perspective change was outside what Primary would expect because Isaac’s time with biologicals was much longer than intended. Centuries longer. Maybe even longer than he lived on Kaylon.
It’s not only human crew he learnt to care about but he also watched a biologicals’ civilisation grow for centuries and saw them improve themselves and shed their worst impulses to become better people.He knows they can do that so it’s no wonder he has different perspective on what biologicals civilisation can be than Prime and other Kaylons who only know their builders.
That is an extremely good point.
Krill are more Romulan than Klingon
“The Kaylons are this series ‘Borg’”Have you ever considered that these things may not be just one-to-one mappings form another show? For example, up until last weeks episode Isaac was called a Data copy. Now he’s called a Borg copy. Maybe he’s not a copy of anything.
But they’re not really the Borg though, are they? They’re not trying to assimilate anything, they’re just destroying. They’re really more like nu-BSG Cylons than anything else – built as slaves, rose up against their masters, are now eradicating all human (biological) life. The Krill are kind of like Klingons, in that they start out as religious fanatics that are enemies of the Federation, and then become allies, but there’s some similarity to Romulans too.
Nice shout-out to SCTV.
This season hadn’t been so great but these episodes pulled it around. Hoping there’s a season 3.
This gets a review, but not The Magicians
I got a Magicians notification for this?
Magicians was really good this week too.
In fairly certain that the awesome Magicians novels want the shitty TV show to die and be forgotten, much like the TV show did with the source material.
Love both shows but a big-budget network TV show getting reviewed vs. a small scale Sy Fy show seems about right. And Magicians hasn’t exactly been bringing it this season. Let’s just get the Scooby gang all together in the same place and time for some hijinks and fun.
I would have liked reviews of The Rookie, Lethal Weapon, and Whiskey Cavalier too.
They used to review a ton more shows by Kinjapolcalypse and previous shrinkage brought a lot of show reviews to a sad end.
Whiskey Cavalier was a lot of fun!Not sure what more you’d need reviewed.
Because one is a good show, and the other is The Magicians.
Naming one of the ships was the USS Quimby, and the fact that Admiral Halsey was on the USS Spruance were nice touches.
Damn that was a poorly constructed sentence.
Thank you for noticing that! (Thanks also for the mention of the ship names. I caught the name Quimby, but didn’t realize the significance of that or even the Spruance until I looked it up just now, so that’s very cool. I saw the movie “Midway” when it came out in 1976, but that was a long time ago.)
Say it wright, it’s Chowdah!
Nimitz is the low-hanging fruit. It’s cool the other guys get recognition from time to time.
It was nicer that one of the Union ships was named the Hawking. I’d prefer to see ships named after scientists instead of admirals.
Yes, scientists and animated characters…..
This episode confirmed Hawking’s concerns about AI (and extra-terrestrials)!
I think that if you look at ship names across both fiction and real life, you’ll find numerous examples of military craft named after generals and admirals, research vessels named after scientists, scout ships named after explorers, and so forth. I believe Beverly Crusher captained the Pasteur in TNG’s finale.I personally have a headcannon that the Orville’s sister ship is named the Wilbur.
Only American admirals, apparently.
I took is as science ships (like Orville) are named after scientists/inventors, where war ships are, you know.
Anytime they mention Admiral Halsey, I think of the book Jack Ryan wrote in “Hunt for Red October.”
Maybe an inside reference?
‘I know this book. Halsey acted stupidly’ (Yes, I know, from the movie, still I love that moment).I think it’s generally more of a reference to the actual admiral from WW2.
I thought it was just a reference to the goofy Paul McCartney song.
1. I wish someone would have stuck a small borg cube and federation ship in the battle scene just for Easter egg purposes.
2. I love this show, I grew up watching Star Trek series.
3. Is this show good enough now that, because network TV is full of cowards, it will get canceled?
1) I don’t think we need ANOTHER reminder how this show is nothing more sad lazy copy of better shows from the 90’s.2) Sadly there is no cure for Orville Derangement Syndrome yet. I hope one day we will find one. Your blindness to the suck is sad. The show is one big FU to Star Trek3) The decline in quality (hard to believe they could go lower than season 1) and the crumbling ratings will lead to its demise unless Fox is this willing to keep Seth. Let us hope that Disney has the foresight to dump his ass.
There is so much other TV can you watch since you seem to hate this one so much.
“Your blindness to the suck is sad.” is rather troll-ish.
Comparing the Orville positively to Star Trek is trollish. Seeing the massive flaws in a lazy hodgepodge of sci-fi tropes is just a side effect of having eyes.
He could also do something with a friend. Oh, wait, maybe not.
Do you… watch the show exclusively for the purpose of sneering at it in disgust?
It’s the only way to enjoy it
This show really is just like Star Trek!
He just wants to let us all know how cool he is compared to us. Anonymously. He must have a sad life.
I’ve been a major Trek fan since the beginning. I’ve seen all the franchise, all the knock-offs, all the wannabes. I’ve got lots of opinions on all of it.
I avoided The Orville because I expected it to be a bad combination of Galaxy Quest, Red Dwarf, and Trek. It isn’t. It’s its own thing and it is great. In the spirit of Trek and IMO better.
It is a bit of a combination of those but in a great way. I love all those. Love Red Dwarf, Galaxy Quest, and enjoy a fair amount of Trek. It takes those and pulls the best bits of them and makes something great. You get good trek type plots like the planet where you vote people thumbs up. Or the Mocclans being one gender and a female birth being taboo.You get interesting aliens like Trek. Yet you also have real people in the crew. TOS was a little too 60s characterizations at times for modern eyes and TNG they were stiff and had a superiority complex. Here you got goof off guys (like Red Dwarf) but they are good at their jobs. You don’t get tons of techno bable. Heck i look at Trek and feel i could never be part of that crew. Orville? Heck i feel like i could be at home there. I feel like i could pilot the ship with a little training. People are better socially accepting, but still have hang ups. They play pranks like getting Bortus to grow a mustache or Mr Potatohead Issac.
Exactly. They seem like normal people who are good at what they do without being superiority dicks about it. Except Isaac, and for a superiority dick he’s fairly chill about it.
Same here, watched TOS reruns and sat on the floor giddily awaiting the premiere of Encounter at Farpoint. Watched ALL of Trek. Orville is a great love letter to the series while also doing its own thing. I would argue there are no Klingon or Romulan analogs as they are taking the same pieces from Trek and mixing and matching them into newer combinations…so there’s no perfect one to one match. Humor was always a part of Trek going back to TOS, this is just a little more common man funny in Orville and they aren’t all as perfect as the crew in Trek. All that said…I still stand by my assessment this is the best Trek on TV right now.
The Krill are a Romulan/Klingon mashup. Nothing even remotely original there. You are putting too much faith people who write by index card and dart board. Red Shirts, USS Callister , Alien Quest etc are good comedic spins on the Trek formula. All provide something new and refreshing. The Orville is a task of figuring out which episodes of Trek did they watch before writing this episode. The love is there. The skill is not.
The Klingons are a Russian/USSR mashup. The Romulans and the Vulcans are the two sides of Asian philosophy. The Ferengi are satirical takes on agents and lawyers and studio executives, dancing on the edge that Mel Gibson fell over. EVERYTHING is derivative.
Yes yes. We know TOS and early TNG was kinda pretty racist at times. However you mashing up basic character tropes of TOS and TNG. The Orville is absolutely cribbing most of its plots, characters, designs etc from TNG.
The real problem? No it’s not like any of those IPs. It’s nothing. The tragic truth here is that even with most of two seasons under its belt the show has no identity. It’s Dollar General Star Trek with discarded Family Guy jokes and wasted cameos. Having a limited budget is no excuse for cheap and lazy production design with no cohesive aesthetic. Dr Who, Lexx, Andromeda, TNG, Farscape, Babylon 5 managed a lot with a little and I guarantee most of their adjusted budgets were quite a bit smaller than Orville’s. The show never should have been put on the air in this half assed state. Cribbing from better IPs without bringing anything new or engaging to the genre does not make even a mediocre show.
Brain and brain! What is brain?Orville is better.
Than what? Earth: Final Conflict? Sure. Let’s go with that
Hey!Earth: Final Conflict had an *awesome* first season! (Same for Andromeda.)
I enjoyed Andromeda in its time (though it hasn’t exactly aged well) but I could never just get into Earth Final Conflict.
Asking “than what?” shows you don’t recognize the quote. And if you don’t recognize the quote, you don’t know enough about TOS to have an opinion.
Gosh darn you caught me. I am not a ONE TRUE FAN OF THE TREK. I am so embarrassed to have been exposed.Oh…no…wait…I just don’t give a rat’s bottom about TOS quotes to deem it work a response rather I tried to further engage by positing what genre show is worse than The Orville.
I think you find it impossible to love anything that’s still in production. Well Dr Who is, sometimes but I thought sci-fi was about taking the lessons of the past and dreaming of the future, not getting stuck in the past.
“Impossible to love anything that’s still in production” sounds pretty much like every fanBOY Trek fan ever.
In the spirit of Trek and IMO better.We don’t have much else for hopeful scifi. The Orville fills that void.Weirdly enough, the show kind of fixes a major issue I always had with Trek, in that everybody was so highbrow all the time. Everybody on the Enterprise read Shakespeare and Tolsoy and listened to Mozart.I hang out with a lot of smart, cultured, educated people. Artists, scientists, professors, people who perform Bach at the Met and lecture grad students on bronze age Europe. One designed part of the Mars orbiter.And every last one of them will laugh at a good fart joke. They all know Monty Python and 80s pop music. There are brilliant scientists at the top of their field who have seen every episode of Friends. Hell, we’ve found graffiti in Mesopotamian and Roman ruins- Some of the greatest and most revolutionary civilizations of our species- that say “Antonius has a tiny dick” and “For a good time see so and so”.I cannot for the life of me imagine that the human race would lose that within the next couple hundred years when we’ve hung onto it for the last 10,000.
Jesus, get a fucking life.Are you the same troll that comments on every single Walking Dead post about how much they hate it and haven’t watched it for years, but still feel they have to insult everyone who enjoys it?Your life must be so sad and shallow. Can’t you just go look at some prehistoric flower fossils or something?
>>The show is one big FU to Star Trek<
Careful there. You’re gonna cut yourself on all that edginess, fella.
You sound like a Fox executive. Don’t you have Firefly and Greg The Bunny to cancel?
Those shows actually had:1) Good writing2) A well realized world3) not-lazy-as-balls production design4) not released at a time where there was an audience for them nor a climate to support genre or high concept comedies like todayIt took 4 seasons to cancel the Cleveland Show. Seth is able to get garbage factories like Million Ways to Die into theaters. Fox loves Seth. Let us hope Fox-Disney will have a different view.
Is that you, Afghammy?
You know, we get that you hate the show and you apparently hate Seth. You make the same points in every review of every episode. There are so many other things you can watch if you hate it so much.
The points are continually valid. Sadly that is something that Seth’s writers just don’t seem to learn.
You know, we get that you hate the show and you apparently hate Seth. You make the same points in every review of every episode. There are so many other things you can watch if you hate it so much.
Seriously now, DO YOU ACTUALLY WATCH THE SHOW?! There was so much potential as to where this would go in part one but the “Reapers-Geth”-lite with a mix of random DS9 plot points and character beats was an absolute pile of steaming feces. Also how the heck is the acting getting worse?!
This was a fantastic hour of television. I loved this episode, and I love this show more and more each week.If you look at people like Edgar Wright and Mel Brooks, you can tell that they have a real affection for the genres they parody. Yes, they’re making fun of it, but in a way that shows you that they have studied every last zombie movie, cowboy movie, black and white horror, etc. i feel that way with the Orville. Yeah, it started as Star Trek, but if Star Trek had jokes and also the Captain and the First Officer were married and wacky hijinks ensue! But it’s evolved into a Space show created by a man that has a real love of the genre. Who has studied every last one, and wanted to make his own. It’s inspiring in a way, it’s a reminder that just because “Simpsons did it” there’s no reason that we can’t do it and put our own spin on it.This episode was a payoff to a lot of emotional arcs, including Issac and his development on board the Orville. His relationships. His work with the kids. hell, even Yapheet, the most annoying character, got a real moment. It’s a pretty incredible payoff. Honestly, I didn’t want to like it this much. I only watched the first episode because my wife, who I got hooked on Deep space nine, was interested. And the thing is, (this episode excluded) most of the series kind of reminds me of those old Next Generation/Andromeda/Bablyon 5 shows that didn’t have a billion dollar budget and couldn’t afford to have sweeping cameras across realistic holographic images or Dragons that shoot fire or what we use for science fiction shows now. If you’re on the fence about it, give it a shot. Seth McFarlane, who I know can be divisive, can be really good when he has people around him who kind of pull him back for a bit. And if you follow him on Twitter, literally every one of his tweets is thanking the people involved in the show, from the production designers to the musicians to the actors that don’t share the stage with him. it’s really cool.
That’s really the thing that separates truly brilliant satire like Galaxy Quest and Spinal Tap. When you’re making fun of it because you love it so much. It changes the dynamic in a way that inherently trades the cheap jabs for the deep recognition of why something is funny. It’s laughing at yourself.
To me this show has an identity crisis. Dont get me wrong I love the show but, it started out as a spoof of sorts of star trek. Suppose to be comedy and the sort like south park in space with in your face social issues. But it is slowly been turned into a somewhat more serious show. It’s no longer the show it presented itself to be in the beginning. For me Brutus wanting cake was funny as hell. That is the type of show they sold me on. It was different . And although I like the show still and think it’s great, it is just got something missing, each episode becomes less funny and more serious. We have enough serious tv out there.
I agree that Prime’s final words were a bit unnecessary and uncharacteristic. But as you said, I’m glad they added the detail that Isaac was built after the major events on his planet, making it believable that he wouldn’t hate biological beings as much as the others of his species.I was afraid that the show would come up with an overly cliche way to keep Isaac on the “good” side, but I think they made it work pretty well (which I’m glad about, because Isaac is one of my favorite characters).I would also like to point out the nice use of foreshadowing (if that’s the correct word to use). Yaphit disables a Kaylon early on by literally going inside his body, making is plausible that he learned enough to reactivate Isaac.
I think too it opens the door for more Kaylons that were built after the genocide like Isaac may also not be genocidal. With further information and interactions with biologicals. One of the other things that impressed me was Ty and Yaphit. Instead of having a “genius savior kid” cliche. They actually went quite stark and went with him being a kid who knew he has to try as he’s most likely going to die either way. Yaphit is stepping up and going to do everything he can but there’s no guarantee. This isn’t some Wesley Crusher deal where he comes up with the plan and saves the ship and galaxy on his own. This is two people who are in dire straits, know it and do the best they can. That was stark and done in a way you don’t usually see. Great writing on this show when you actually look it. Many people can’t get over their dislike of Seth or Family Guy to see how all these little details actually pile into each other and actually bring so much depth that’s not there in other scifi shows.I read people bitching about the pee corner joke, that’s not really a joke. Think about it. These people are stuck in a shuttle bay, no bathrooms, by robots who don’t care about things like that. Star Trek doesn’t bother with that. Yet it’s a very real issue that happens. Their already terrified, working on trying to plan, survive, figure out what’s going on yet things like food, water and going to the bathroom don’t stop. It’s a brutal part of captivity. Things like that really show what’s happening more than just standing around planning the escape. It ramps up the tension for the viewers even as they chuckle, it sits in the back of their minds “oh shit, they are really screwed, this isn’t just some simple, sanitary, sitting all easy, waiting around. “ This attention to detail is what makes The Orville so amazing to me. It shows everything.
I agree this was one of the series’ stronget outings, but the excitement of the climactic battle was somewhat undermined by a number of issues:The Union is able to sumon an awful lot of ships from their fleet in a very short period of time, despite saying it would take weeks. This suggests that the number of ships that didn’t make it in time for he battle means the fleet we saw was only a fraction of the whole fleet.I would have liked to see more diversity in ship design, and for the cameras to let us actually get a look at the ships, particularly the larger Union vessels that are superior to the Orville.Similarly, once the Krill showed up, because the ships were all of the same design I got the feeling the SFX dudes kinda just hit copy-paste and arranged them around the stage. The sheer volume of ships and the chaos that ensued when red, blue, and green weapons started tangling was impressive, but lacked the artistry of Battlestar Galactica The Expanse. Most egregiously, despite the fact numerous larger, more powerful ships than the Orville are destroying in *one shot* by the Kaylon, it makes no sense whatsoever that the Orville was able to withstand as many hits as it took, including from point-blank range.The Defiant of DS9 largely got away with this because it was a “tough little ship” with ablative armor to supplement its shields…but the Orville is not a warship. Malloy may be the best pilot in the fleet, but we still saw the ship take dozens of direct hits, any one of which should have destroyed it by the episode’s own rules.All that aside, holy crap that was one of the better space battles I’ve seen on TV in years. Good to see Orville going big, as you say.
They did explain how The Orville stands up to the Krill ships as well as it does, but they did so in a properly subtle way. Early on in the episode, the Kaylon reference that they’re performing shield upgrades to the ship (which makes sense given at that point they had total control and were using it to lead their armada.)I kept waiting for that to come back up in dialogue but it never did.
There was a throwaway line from one of the Kaylons that they were enhancing the Orville’s shields, but later Talla commented how they were going right through them, so *shrug*.Wait, there was a union ship bigger than the Orville in that battle?!I agree, I’d like to see more variety, isn’t the Orville described as a small/medium exploratory vessel? The design language for union ships is pretty nice, i want to see it expanded.Yes, the guy said it would take weeks to get the whole fleet back, but it could be argued that only the last 20% or whatever is what would take weeks.
Yep, there was an absolutely huge one, I’ll have to watch again but it looked like the Orville flew in between those… engine structures. In an episode last season (I think) they showed the Orville next to another ship that was maybe twice as big. Maybe Orville is a destroyer, the bigger ship a cruiser and that huge ship from last night a battleship?
honestly, i though that was one of the union fighters/shuttles flying through the orville (or other orville type ship), i didn’t see a third engine hoop and that was what my scale has been, since only orville and bigger have three or more of em.and i forgot about the larger ship first intro’d from an earlier episode, but that was only about twice as big as the orville and not big enough to have pulled off that kinda fly-through.when is this fight being put online, i need to go through it a few more times.
Yeah I’m planning on watching it on like 1/2 or 1/4th speed to catch everything lol. The opening shot of the fleet assembled seemed to show various ship sizes… but then again it could also be a trick of perception.
Just finished watching it again! The Orville itself flew through the remains of two big ass ships engine loops. I’m not sure what the engine loops mean on this viewing. When the Kaylon ships break off to Earth…. the ships assisting the Orville are the same size… but only have two engine loops. Maybe the science ships have three to focus more on speed and distance and the combat ships have two as they’re more focused on weapons and shields? The two big ass ships the Orville flew through the wreckage of also seemed to only have two engine loops.
Wait, there was a union ship bigger than the Orville in that battle?!
Yeah, I think I saw a few ships that were bigger, though in space battles it’s difficult to have proper perspective. As far as I can remember from previous episodes, while other ships appear to be the same design, the Orville is usually smaller.
The Orville’s shields got a Moclan upgrade not long ago and as it was a test, they would be the only ship to have the stronger deflectors.
This. The silly Moclan romance episode where they got a shield upgrade. At the time I wondered if it was foreshadowing.
I think the test data would have been sent to the fleet HQ in the meantime.
The Moclans also upgraded the Deflectors, so the combined upgrades have now essentially made The Orville a new Defiant.The DS9 parallels keep piling up rather pleasantly.
I would have liked to see a wider variety of ships as well, but I suspect they were straining the show’s budget as it was. Logistically, they’re only going to use the models that are already created as opposed to designing, building, and integrating new ones.
There are more ship types but they seem to follow a very common design, single ring for shuttle/fighters, two rings for ships smaller than the Orville, three rings for the Orville and four rings for the larger ships.
There were a few new ships. On top of the Union Exploratory class ships and the larger ones that look almost indistinguishable aside from their size, we got our first look at Union fighters. We also saw Krill fighters, although we might have seen those before. This did lack the artistry of DS9 space battles from episodes like “Sacrifice of Angels” and “What You Leave Behind,” but I’m not going to fault them for that entirely, since this was their first real go at it.
Still gray, huh? Thanks.
Honestly a limited number of ships classes is fairly realistic. Get a design you like that works and then pump out thousands of them. The US Navy has like 450+ ships, but only like 13 types and most of those are old/new pairs (Nimitz/Ford, Los Angeles/Virginia, etc) or the 6 types of LPDLPH Amphibious ships that from a distance would be hard to tell apart unless you knew exactly what you were looking for.
As to the Orville taking hits above it’s weight class, look at the episode 7, where the Moclan Engineer genius put in that regenerating cyclic shield technology. What impressed me was the renders. Unlike DS( that used compositied in explosions, each explosion in the Orville was rendered with debris. Which made for a much more dynamic visual, but then software has improved a lot since the 1990’s.
I believe in the pilot episode Admiral Halsey says the Union operates 3,000 ships. So what we saw in the battle was indeed a small fraction.
In the very first episode of season one they say there’s 3000 ships to staff. Given that, it would take weeks to get them all back, the ones that are there in time amount to less than 10% of the fleet.
For once we have earth with SHIPS.If Earth is in a intergalactic battle and you can jump to earth, it would make sense to have a home fleet.That home fleet was roughly 50 ships and they have thousands if I remember correctly.
The robots upgraded the shields to there tech one line in the show said.
I thought in an earlier episode (maybe even season 1?) the Admiral was talking about having to staff like…. 3000 some ships. So yes, the ones that got there were just a SMALL part of the total fleet and probably whoever was on hand in the solar system or nearby stars. Not a lot of ships at all compared to the total. Also makes sense why the Krill didn’t stick around either. There were still union ships left from the battle, their ships also took a beating… and I’d assume a nice chunk of the 2800+ rest of the union fleet was on its way. Best to peace out! We know they’re in conflict with at least one other race… if they decided to attack then it would be an all out war instead of the border skirmishes that currently happen. I think they understand it would be a losing battle. (plus we haven’t even talked about the fleets of the rest of the Union members!)
It may even have been engineered by Isaac that the Orville get the defense upgrades because the plan was to use it as the Kaylon Trojan Horse.
It took 2 years for the Orville to bring an episode worthy of syfi fans. I hope there are more in the future.
This episode would not have been half as good without the 2 years it took to develop all the characters. Think about that..
Maybe you didn’t see the episode, or simply forgot. But they just had their deflectors and shields upgraded far past normal capacity by the Mocllans. That’s why they were able to take the hits they riff while others who hadn’t been upgraded couldn’t.
It’s a spoof. Enjoy it.
It was actually mentioned in the pilot episode that the Union Fleet consists of about 3000 ships – so we definitely only saw a fraction of that.As far as the battle goes, I agree it was a bit too cluttered at times, making it difficult to really tell what was going on, but it was still really impressive. I try not to compare shows, as they should be able to stand or fall on their own, but I wish ST Discovery (with us sizeable budget) showed us a battle like this in season 1. There was the Battle at the Binary Stars, but it had nowhere near the scope of this Battle. Finally, in another homage to Star Trek, the Orville is really coming into its own this season. The past 4 episodes now (including this one) have been legitimately good.
The past four? The fifth one (“Birthday Cake”) is the best of the series!
I liked the idea behind “All the World is Birthday Cake,” but the execution was clunky as hell – with so many painful plot holes and obvious questions not being asked (different planets have different constellations!). Plus, the escape plan by Bortus and Grayson involved the straight up murdering of a number of guards…which is just kind of shrugged off as no big deal.
the ships were all of the same design
That’s how militaries work. That’s what a ‘class’ of ship/vessel/plane is. They make one design for awhile, then they make another. Look at the US military. For example, tank division has one, maybe two types of tanks, even though it might have several hundred tanks in the division. The next class of carriers will be Ford class, the previous was Nimitz class. They do this to make production, maintenance & repair faster, easier & cheaper.
there looked to be 2, possibly 3 distinct ship classes in that union fleet which seems a reasonable number for a hastily assembled fleet, theres probably a few other classes about, but really 4 different types would be all you’d really expect, maybe a few more because older ships still stick around, star trek seemed to have an insane variety of federation ship classes
There Orville had special upgrades both from the moclans and if I remember correctly the kaylons
I agree with most of what you said, but I want to point out that Prime mentioned early on that Isaac was upgrading the ships deflectors, presumably to Kaylon standards, would would probably make them a harder target than even the Union heavy cruisers.
The Orville did get the shield upgrade from Moclan dude
Yeah they crapped the bed on not having more ship models, it is like when TNG would have the Romulans always in the same Warbird over and over.
Isnt that the beauty of this show? It’s intentionally corny anachronistic style like it’s the coolest Star Trek show ever made in the nineties, means it can directly ape the style AND limitations of TNG.
For me, the story itself was pretty predictable from the beginning — especially that Ty would become the focal point of Isaac’s eventual redemption. I didn’t find too many surprises — but still enjoyed the episode immensely. Sometimes, predictable stories are comforting — as long as they’re well-presented. The Orville did a great job this season of building Isaac’s character and his relationship with Dr. Finn. Also, Ed’s hesitation to allow Kelly to pursue her side-mission was a nice follow-up to the first episode of the second season (Kelly’s biggest fear of renewing her relationship with Ed would prevent him from allowing her to take risks). All in all, every beat of the episode — while mostly predictable — was earned because of The Orville’s strong emphasis of character development.
It goes to show that The Orville is one of the riskiest shows on television because it refuses to follow the path set by Game of Thrones — a trend so hard to ignore that even Star Trek embraces it for Discovery (and here’s hoping that the upcoming Picard does not!)
You forgot that the Kaylons said they were uprading the Orville’s shields in transit.
“Malloy may be the best pilot in the fleet”Malloy wasn’t even back on the Orville yet. He was still flying a Krill fighter, with his wingman “Kazanski” 😉
300 are in the Union so I’m sure they have a lot of ships including ferrying ships of people and goods.It reminded me of deep space nine and the war that was started during the middle of the series.
The Moclans upgraded their deflectors a few episodes ago. They were the test ship, presumably they were allowed to keep the upgrade, and since the engineer responsible was then… executed? It wasn’t really clear- for being straight, they might be the only ones who have the upgrade in the whole Union.Also, we got at least four new ship designs in this two part episode: the Small Kaylon Sphere, the Large Kaylon Sphere, the Krill Fighter, and the Union Fighter. This is a FOX show, be glad they aren’t cancelling it for arbitrary reasons.
Re: ship design – there have been plenty of little context clues and hints that the Union (and perhaps human “quantum” flight in general) is a relatively recent occurrence. If that’s the case, that would explain why most of the ships have the same basic design, since they’re still all the same engineers.
The Union fleet numbers over 3000 ships… stated in the pilot. The fleet that we did see definitely is only a fraction of the whole.The Orville just had deflector upgrades a few episodes ago. That, along with the possibility that the Kaylon may have modified them further after taking over, can explain why Orville was able to take a stronger beating than even larger ships.
If I recall correctly, in the first episode of season one, the admiral says to Ed that they have 3000 ships to staff.
The Union has approximately a little over 3,000 ships as stated by one of the episodes. The wide shot when the Orville and the Kalon ships approached Earth looked like there were around 300 Union ships that got there to defend Earth. So 10% is a small fraction of the Union’s entire fleet.
Babylon 5 did this better than anyone, able to balance spectacle, chaos, and emotional weight into very large space battles. This was just chaos.
It’ll be interesting to see how “back to normal” the show will be next week. Do you let Isaac back to his old station? There almost needs to be a full episode of processing the hate people will have for him in the coming weeks. The Kaylon ships were cool in the way they spin at a moment’s notice. Nice bad-guy ship design.What was the quote? “Get ready to gargle on a mouthful of Gordon!” Lol.
…..Also, Gordon is totally doing Iceman’s chomp:
Time to wash your mouth out with Gordon.What does that even mean?
He even called his Krill wingman “Kazanski”
LOL. I don’t know why but Gordon’s line reminded me of the “all right you alien assholes, UP YOURS!” bit from Independence Day.
About the Krill not turning around and conquering Earth… They have NO intel on what Planetary Defenses Earth has. They have their version of the old axiom: “If your attack is going really well, it’s an ambush”. Or,as Admiral Ackbar would say, “It’s A TRAP!”
The Fleet met the Kaylons further out to keep them out of firing range to Earth. Remember another old axiom: “If the enemy is within range, so are you!”
Three nitpicks on an otherwise fantastic Orville:1. The Kaylons would have seen after the 13-button salute, the shuttle escape and the radio signal, that the Orville’s crew won’t cooperate in the end. So why not do away with the potential threat and airlock the entire cargo bay?2. The Krill made a grave tactical error, at least from a long-term standpoint. Why not wait out the battle until the Kaylon fleet is done then decimate what’s left of them? Two birds, one stone?3. Leaving Isaac on, functional and assembled is a huge tactical oversight. Identity pt.1 had proven that the Kaylon can remotely manipulate Isaac. Why would anyone believe he is not going to be subverted at any point?
“Why not wait out the battle until the Kaylon fleet is done then decimate what’s left of them?”The Krill already faced one Kaylon ship, so they were able to assess the relative strengths. Waiting out the battle only works if the Union fleet is strong enough to reduce the Kaylons enough for the Krill to finish, but not strong enough to win. In addition, there’s still the unknown industrial capability back in Kaylon space. Until that is assessed, the Krill shouldn’t should neither spend any force they don’t have to nor alienate any other Union species that might ally with them against the obviously powerful Kaylon foe.
Meh, I think it was a bit of an over-reach for the series. They’re better off with their ‘adventure of the week’ format.
Not a fan of action? You remind me of my wife.. whenever there is a battle scene in any show, she either falls asleep or her eyes glaze over until it’s done. She doesn’t understand the point and simply doesn’t… get it.
“…grossest members of the ship…”
No disgust for Lt Bellyphant?
He was only temporary. He is on another ship now.
No, going to the Krill was the duh, it’s-so-obvious plot move. Didn’t you see Ocean’s 13?
Isaac had no real reason to turn on his buds—just another of those “yeah, it’s dumb but we’re stuck here so have to go with the hoary cliche” plot point.
No, the Kaylon aren’t Borg. They’re more of a ripoff of Fred Saberhagen’s Berserkers.
So much great inspiration taken from other classic science fiction, BSG, all manner of Star Trek, even Mass Effect and Star Wars with the stunning space battle, and now a little more Data with Isaac’s evolution. Perhaps that is what’s happening, he is evolving, and emotions are part of that, his race might go Reverse-Vulcan in the future.I’m not surprised how well the Orville fared with the Kaylon and Moclan upgrades piling up, even more so the Krill seemed to really put the Kaylons down, suggesting the Krill are militarily stronger than the Union. The Union fleet that arrived only took down maybe a quarter of the Kaylon ships, though we don’t know how the entire fleet would compare to the Kaylons they are definitely far more powerful than the Union ship to ship. I know they were a throwaway species but the Calivon are as advanced as the Kaylon supposedly, I assume they wouldn’t dirty their hands in a war however.Judging by the preview it’s definitely going to be the Krill and the Union understanding each other as a major thread in this universe, with the Kaylon as a central antagonist.
I really hoped he was named Isaac as a nod to Isaac Asimov.
“the two smallest and grossest members of the ship —Yaphet and Ty”
NICE
Except that it means that both Yaphet and Ty are both small and gross.
Well yes, that was my point.
Ah. Well, then, carry on!
An A!!!!!! Finally :)Nice job on the review and the grade both.
This is one show I did not expect much out of, I had watched the pilot and was kind of meh?! Starting watching S2 and I’m hooked, and pretty much ready to abandon STD. I watch STD at 8pm and couldn’t care less and 9pm The Orville came on and I was on the edge of my seat.
Kelly showed great strength by demanding to go on the shuttle mission with Gordon. Also, let us recall that Kelly once wondered whether Ed could handle sending her on a mission that was so dangerous that she probably wouldn’t return. We found out here that he can.
And now that Kelly has survived, this is one less obstacle for her and Ed to resume their relationship. (I actually don’t think that they should; but I fully expect that they will.)
Unrelated observations:
* While it was nice to see Gordon piloting a Krill fighter, I cannot conceive of a reason why the Krill would allow him to do that.
* When Isaac regained consciousness after having been repaired by Yaphit, I was expecting him to comment about Yaphit still being inside his body.
I doubt the Krill expected Gordon would survive. There’s little about him that inspires trust or confidence unless you already know him.
It was nice that both Gordon and Yaphit got some moments to shine because (especially in Yaphit’s case) they were both were desperately needing in some character growth. (I similarly appreciated Gordon’s recent B-story when he’s considering going up for the officer’s exam.)
“I was deactivated for seven cycles. What has transpired? Also, why is Yaphit inside of me?”
Someone on another forum imagined Isaac saying the line “I seem to be filled with goo.”
“the chance to go through Xelayan security chiefs like Spinal Tap does drummers.” Ha! I’d love it!
Great episode with twists that did not go as I expected.There was a moment when Kaylon Prime was explaining how their creators treated them in which he mentioned “pain receptors” that had been built into Kaylons so that their masters could punish/control them. It occurred to me that those receptors could have still been inside each Kaylon. After all, why bother to remove them when the species that put them there is extinct? I thought the crew was going to figure out a way to access them and switch them on all at once for every Kaylon in the invasion fleet.
That was the moment that restored my flagging belief that the whole scenario was a test by the Kaylons, to see if the Humans were fundamentally different from their creators.But, nope!I still expect it’ll come up later, though, either as how they’re defeated, or as how the Union convinces them to change.
I actually liked the use of “Roots.” While there was no callback to it, I imagine a deleted scene where Isaac acknowledges the cruelty of slavery, but the folly in Kaylon Prime ordering him to absorb this particular book, because it’s also a deeply resonant saga on the strength and perseverance of family. Isaac, most likely unintentionally, became a member of the Finn family, and if his programming has any capacity for interpretation, the thematic subtext of “Roots” might have been enough to help him change his mind, especially when he’s confronted with having to kill a member of his own family. Even the note that Isaac was assembled after the purge of the Kaylon creators was a not-so-subtle declaration that he was not “one of them,” (not just having different color eyes) so Kaylon Prime really made two very costly errors. On the surface, yeah, “Roots” can seem heavy-handed, but I get the feeling there was more to it that might be explored down the road.
I expect they will bring it up again. This was a crowded episode as it was, and it’s a subject where you do want a fair bit of time to explore it.And, you know, maybe bringing along a black writer to help out.Especially since… well, we learned earlier this season that Finn grew up in Baltimore. People move around, especially over hundreds of years, duh, but it wouldn’t be at all surprising to find out that some of Finn’s ancestors came to America as slaves. It’s a heavy subject to tackle. Doesn’t excuse them not giving her or LaMarr any lines in the episode about it, at least one of them should’ve said something, but it’s definitely a plot to look out for in the future.
We thought Isaac was Data. Turns out he’s Worf.
“Identity” was a great, engaging two hours of sci-fi television. Bravo to Mr. McFarlane and everyone else working on the Orville. This is quickly becoming one of my favorite shows, and it seems to get better and better each outing. It is so great to have a show that has a “TNG” vibe on TV again.There were some small plot gripes here (why didn’t the Krill just stomp Earth when they had the chance, Isaac being welcomed back a little too abruptly etc.), but who really cares when the rest of the episode is so well done? It was just good to be along for the ride.Many have compared Isaac to Data since the series began, which has seemed apt given that both are artificial life forms. But I find it interesting that Orville is going more the Odo DS9 route-having the character be aloof, isolated from their home and (spoilers ahead for a tv show that ended 20 years ago) having to deal with the fact that his people are a major antagonist for the show. While it is true that Odo and Data (and the Doctor on Voyager too) are used to explore similar themes, I always thought that Odo’s origins and the changling role as main antagonist opened up some interesting story avenues. So I like it that Orville is going that route here, and I am excited to see where it goes.One more random thought: That space battle was pretty darn good for network TV. I guess we now know why all those great character focused episodes happened!I am so happy Orville exists, and I hope we get to see it go on for a long time.
I don’t get the “Why didn’t the Krill attack Earth?” line of criticism. I mean… how?? Krill ships were getting blown up and pounded during the battle. There are still Union ships functioning. We see at the end of the episode there are orbital installations around Earth (that I’d assume have some type of weaponry). There are what… 20 Krill ships? being generous lets give them 1000 combat troops per ship. They’d have trouble pacifying a large city let alone a planet of billions. Even before then, they still need to beat the remaining Earth fleet from the battle. We know from earlier episodes that the total Earth fleet numbers in the thousands… and I’d assume a lot of them are headed right toward Earth for reinforcements. Let alone any other Union military ships nearby. There is quite literally nothing the could do but die if they attacked the Earth at that point.
I understand your point, but I respectfully disagree with some of it. I think that some of your assessment is based on assumptions that we don’t have evidence of, like weapons on orbital platforms or that 20 ships (if that is even the number) is all the Krill could muster from their space given how fast their advance fleet got there.But my view that this is the smallest of plot holes comes from who the Krill have been shown to be and not from who had how many ships. The Krill have a few defining traits-a faith based culture, sensitivity to light……and attacking anything that moves. It has been pretty well established that they aggressively attack anyone anytime given that they feel that it is their Avis given right to pursue manifest destiny throughout the universe. They have at least developed prototypes of bombs that could eliminate Union cities from orbit, and (as we saw in All the World is Birthday Cake) indiscriminately invaded a force that is at least as strong as they are (if not stronger) because they felt it was their absolute right to claim hostile territory.Given those facts, I think it is far more likely that the Krill would have at least tried to take advantage of a reduced Union fleet, or at least let the Kaylon and Union hammer on each other instead of risking their own fleet and heading to the rescue. It seems strange that the Krill, after being hostile with the Union for some time, would be instantly swayed by two Union officers to incur heavy losses to curb an eventual Kaylon threat (I give the show points for trying to wave that away with the one attack from the Kaylon ship that followed them, but it still seems pretty abrupt). Having then instantly decided that the Kaylon are worth teaming up with a sworn enemy for, I find it hard to believe that the Krill would then turn around and leave peacefully seconds after hostilities concluded. It is not very consistent with what we have seen from them so far.However: As I said in my first post, it is such a minor plot hole (if it even is one) that it is of very little importance. Further, I am glad that the show is going this route. A further expanded “Identity” space battle with the Krill is much less interesting than the story possibilities around the Union trying to make peace with them.
Ah, I see where you’re coming from. I think with the Krill it could go either way. I could easily see them waiting on the edge of the battle and watching the Kaylon v. Earth fight.. then swooping in at the last minute and torching everyone. 😉 Though perhaps witnessing the Kaylon fleet they may have had a change of heart and realized that their crusade would be useless as they alone would not be able to stand against the Kaylon. Though the Krill and Union and everyone else needs to get to that Kaylon homeworld and torch it ASAP. I’m not even sure the Kaylon ships were manned… and considering how fast they manufactured that fleet (last episode made it seem like they were building them while the Orville was present from scratch) and the damage that fleet did… I don’t think you want to wait around to see how they improve for the next battle. Even if its just “Well…. 50 ships failed. Lets send 100!” I’m excited at the story possibilities as well!
I really enjoyed this response and your perspective-thanks!
It’s possible that the Krill agreed to help because Avis (something the Krill plan to research more in their bible) is open to having allies against the same enemy.
I am surprised how much I enjoy watching this show— it is one of the two shows I make an effort to watch in real time, as opposed to streaming later at my convenience. I hope the Fox execs look at streaming numbers as well when deciding on its future.As for the recent Kaylon episodes— I felt that all the drama, executions and whole ships being suddenly destroyed deserved a stronger emotional response from the crew. I understand they are trained for battle, etc, but this was a surprise attack, there were kids on board, and Ed personally knew people killed— no screams from crew as they were being hunted down by the Kaylon, no crying from kids as they were escorted into the shuttle bay, and no moment of silence or shot of a memorial for the dead at the end of the episode, or comment about “we lost 4,379 people today,” so it didn’t feel like the big loss it really was. Would like to see more emotional depth, from the human crew members at least.
I think it’s coming. They tend not to let things like this go on the show.It was really stark seeing instead of having alluded to the fighting that goes on when a ship is boarded. The civilians rounded up but the officers and security staff have to fight and do their jobs. They can’t stop, they know everyone’s life is on the line and until the captain tells them to stand down they are full out. The families and support staff are trained to not get in the way, not get hurt so they can find ways with their abilities to get away. It was a brutal look at the way things often happen. I do agree though a bit more after the fact emotion would have been nice but I think it would have taken away from the impact of Ed taking responsibility for Isaac after all that. Now we’re going to see the fallout while people are grieving in a more heavy way as we didn’t see it before.
Talla getting shot with pretty much no consequence was a major piss off for me. Couldn’t she at least had to sit this episode out in sick bay? And if we’re going to insist on keeping the Xelayans around, can we up the wig budget to shop somewhere other than Party City? Alara’s hair was so fake looking, I laughed out loud at it multiple times. At least Talla’s is being slightly disguised in a braid, unlike the overly swingy, shiny, stringy mess that Alara was stuck with. At a bare minimum, spray it with fabric softener and texturize it, FFS.
Cracks me up…all the serious sci-fi geeks seriously analyzing The Orville for this and that plot or tech issue when the show is an excellent spoof. Forget the inconsistencies and enjoy the ride.
Moving to real life, it is amusing that two unlikely hook-ups character-wise are getting married in real life.
Strong? Fantastic? I must have been watching a different show. What lazy writing:1) Ultra-hostile death enemies the Krill come to the rescue on the strength of one small skirmish with the Kaylon? Said Krill send their fleet without proof that it isn’t a trap? Give one of their fighters to a Union pilot who has never been shown piloting anything other than the Orville or a shuttle? Were they short of pilots?
2) Magical EMP that takes out just the Kaylons, but not a single other device on the Orville? Oh, it’s a “special EMP…”
3) Kaylons don’t have emotions, but are vengeful because of their past enslavement. Prime demonstrates illogical evil behavior at every turn. Herh?
4) Kaylons are machines, but regularly don’t react faster than “biologicals.” Yay! Biologicals are ultimately better than machines!
5) The Orville is outfitted with numerous conduits large enough for either either gross, mucas creature Norm Macdonald (redundant?) or a young child. Bwuh?6) We know Isaac is a machine, yet we’re supposed to be angry that he doesn’t behave like a machine. Poor Dr Finn! Herp.7) Isaac, a machine without emotions, conveniently becomes emotional and saves the day. Der derp!I still enjoy the show, but man do they need to get more disciplined about their writing.
I love this review and the entire assessment of the episode. quite obviously like everyone else, I thought it was one of the best if not the best 2 episodes thus far. Claire’s kids are still somewhat annoying, but I understand their place on the show. On another note, your writing is outstanding until you come to use two terms “shit” and “shity”. Totally unnecessary for something so well written. Please keep this in mind for the future
How dare you! I watched an episode of The Orville because I wanted to see what an “A” grade episode looked like around here. Shame on you.
An A, high praise indeed to quote Nicholas Cage.I predicated most of the major twists in the story (especially once they mentioned Isaac was built post genocide thus absolving him of responsibility and clearing the path for him to redeem himself) but it was still entertaining to get to them non the less. Also finding the CGI to be on point for a TV budget.
As a fan of bad and corny Sci-Fi, I was *almost* a little sad to see this show get so compelling so quick. It’s like a really great combination of TNG and Dr Who.
Came across your article after Identity Part 1 left me wondering if the Internet felt as excited as myself by the tremendous display I had just witnessed, and greatly enjoyed your writing style. So, I returned after Part 2 seemed successful and was pleased to once more enjoy your prose! That’s it, no rehashing fictional scientific probabilities or poking at the veneer of sustainable disbelief that allows for any one of us to enjoy the genre (or non-factual television watching at all, for that matter)! Just a compliment – thanks for your authorship!
Loved the episode. My only question involves the Krill. A single Kaylon shit destroyed two krill ships before the third destroys it in nail-biting fashion.Cut to final battle. At least 50 Union/Earth ships struggled to destroy 8 Kaylons, losing half their numbers in the process. A dozen Krill show up, and even the fighters ate one-shotting Kaylon ships.How have the Krill not conquered Earth a dozen times over with that kind of military superiority?
It is rare to see a series episode where you can point to an episode or two and can say this is where it really went from an okay series to a great series. These two were it. I was at the edge of my seat. It was like TNG meets Doctor Who. They now established a new main villain. The thing I am most impressed by was the Kaylon thing was literally a series long fake out. No one saw it coming. Just a few episodes ago, commenters were “awing” over Finn and Isaac. It turns out the entire time he was on the ship, his directive was “giving Kaylons info on how to kill them”This was an A+
Didn’tanyone else find Issac’s timing convenient? He was helping his ppl until two humans escaped to find the krill. I would have destroyed Issac. He cannot be trusted. The captain is risking his whole crew for a robots word! He is a bad captain imo.
Captain Mercer is a passive, morose chair-warmer on the bridge and in the ship’s watering hole. Now Jim Kirk would have made one of two moves: blow-up the ship before it reached Earth or admonished and lectured the Kaylons until their circuits shorted-out, as he did with Nomad, M-5, Landru and Norman. The battle was extremely well-done. Gordon’s Luke Skywalker moment was corny but a crowd-pleaser, I’m sure. The EMP resolution was too simple. Why the Union would allow Isaac into any ship, on Mercer’s responsibility, is a brainless decision. It’s responsible for the deaths of hundreds and the destruction of dozens of ships. With more Kaylons on their planet prepping for killing all biologicals, it could never be trusted. Then again, the Union made an unvetted alien robot a science officer on the Orville, not knowing a thing about the Kaylons.
“blow-up the ship before it reached Earth”Then Earth wouldn’t know that the remnants of the Kaylon fleet are actually hostile and everybody would die.
Dear Nick: “A cunning plot by the two smallest and grossest members of the ship —Yaphet and Ty— allowed for earth to a…” I really don’t see how you can equate a cute Ten year old boy with an amoeba. It’s very disrespectful to call him gross – don’t you think? Also, why should Isaac reading ‘Roots’ be a bit too much? If he had read about the holocaust would have been more acceptable to you? I’m just wondering about your word choices as concern a certain race of people.
Isaac is now a direct accomplice in the deaths of hundreds of people (e.g. the entire crew of the Roosevelt). The fact that he may have felt bad about it afterwards doesn’t change that. At best, the Union might be expected to treat him as a POW; at worst, they could treat him as a mass murderer or a war criminal. I have to admit, I actually stopped watching at the point where the crew was debating what to do with him.
Strong episode, but this was a maddeningly obtuse development to end on.
Making Isaac read Roots and then immediately turning around and demanding he choose a new name was really something else. Bit on the nose, but certainly made a point about the nature of Primary.
How is everyone missing the huge hole in the story line? They already knew that EMP takes them out. No need for a battle, just have every ship in the fleet also create a huge EMP to disable them all. Battle avoided.
There was much to enjoy about the episode but considering the amount of lives lost. There is no way Isaac should be allowed back on the ship. I knew there was going to be a ‘oh look he is helping us we should forgive him’ but there should be consequences. He directly lead to the loss of a lot of security officers on the Orville. He clearly always had the ability to not follow his orders otherwise he would not have been able to resist killing Ty. Just following orders is not an excuse ever. Anyways gorgeous episode.
If they are going to treat this Isaac dilemma at all realistically, they will HAVE to at least write in some crew animosity towards him, maybe even to the point of having someone shove him out an airlock – which Isaac could presumably survive. But to give him some warm-and-huggy pass by the entire crew is ridiculous given the existential threat his kind remains to all “biologicals”.
The battle only defeated a first attack wave. It didn’t eradicate a now-known vastly superior foe of all biological entities in the universe. A foe which can remotely trigger their silver Manchurian Candidate on the bridge from across the galaxy. It’s a definite record scratch that they would allow Isaac back on the Orville bridge like nothing happened. I think it would be a nice turn to have Bortus and a co-conspirator just up and dispose of Isaac as I described above, leaving it a mystery hanging over the crew as to whodunit.
The Borg were introduced 3/4 of the way through the 2nd season of TNG. This two-part episode brings us to roughly the 3/4 mark of The Orville’s second season.
After downloading “Roots”, Isaac is ordered to change his designation. Not choosing “Kunta Kinte” or “Toby” was a real missed opportunity.
Yeah, I thought we’d have a new name reveal, something like “You can call me ‘Nat’” when ripping the head off Primary, but alas…
I have to say I was disappointed in this episode. I spent the whole time expecting some final twist, some reveal that…I don’t know. That the Kaylon had switched Isaacs on us. That this was all a simulation. SOMEthing. Instead it was a straight invasion story. Which is fine, as is the prospect of shifting allegiances that may bring the Krill into an ongoing relationship with the Union, but the more I reflect on this, the more I think it was just too soon.We didn’t get enough development of the Claire/Isaac relationship, something that was fairly key to this story. They only JUST started dating a couple episodes prior! We also didn’t get enough development on the Krill front. We saw some brief hints in “Nothing Left On Earth But The Fishes” that, perhaps, Krill-Union relations might grow less hostile over time – perhaps there was hope for their cultures to come to some mutual understanding. But their decision to join the fight against the Kaylon and then to depart peacefully…it didn’t feel earned.This should have come at the end of the season. Honestly, perhaps it should have been a season-ending cliffhanger, in the grand tradition of classic Star Trek two-parters like “The Best of Both Worlds”. We should have had more time with Claire and Isaac as a couple, and more time with Union-Krill relations. We should have seen people change and grow, and circumstances shift, and THEN we should have been hit with this whammy.I still adore The Orville. It’s one of the shows I look forward to most each week. But this season has felt rushed in a lot of ways – like they’re trying to do too much, too fast. What’s done is done, and we have our new status quo – I just hope the writers start letting their plots breathe a little.
One thing that I really liked about this episode’s battle that you often don’t get with space battles is the sense that this one felt like it was truly happening in three dimensions. That they’re dodging something to starboard, and then get hit with something from underneath. Often it feels like space battles happen without much “up or down”, just mostly “forward and back”, and “side to side”, with just a few dodges and course changes on the Z-axis. This battle felt like it was truly happening all around them, in every direction, which was refreshingly awesome.
Yeah they had some really cool shots and camera angles so you really felt the Orville being bounced around and dodging things.
It took me two seasons and this two-parter episode to realise that the Kaylons are a thinly-veiled reference to Cylons, and I’m sorry guys but you need to revoke my Geek Card and all AV-Club cred immediately. What is wrong with me?!
My wife also wondered before the second part aired if it was some kind of Kaylon test what the Union was really like.
We did have problems with a few things. First, even though he was an ambassador from Kaylon why was Issac made the ships science officer, second or third in command structure and most of all allowed to access every detail on Union operations (including the secret 13 Buttons code)?Just a couple episodes earlier the Orville was involved in a Moclan experiment that increased the shields immensely. That should have been mentioned and reproduced during the battle.Finally, the show plays games with the relative speed of the Quantum Drive the same as Star Trek did with Warp Drive. If the story requires it, like the Krill getting to Earth shortly after the Kaylons even though they were supposed to be very far away, hence the need for the nitrous boost of the shuttle.
Solid episode man