I’m a 29-year-old straight male. I’ve been with my 25-year-old partner for six years. I love her and think that we are perfect for each other. We have all the things that make existing with someone wonderful. But about two years into our relationship I had a two-week-long affair while I was out of the country. I fucked up. I came clean to my partner and we’ve done our best to work through this over the last four years, but it has obviously caused some trust issues between us. I’ve never cheated again and I try every day to work through these issues I caused in our relationship.
There’s also been two recent instances of me breaking her trust. On a particularly stressful day I was caught sneaking a cigarette—the sneaking part is the issue—and on another occasion I did drugs in our communal back garden with a friend after she had gone to bed. I owned up to both straight away. I view both of these as being a symptom of the lockdown/pandemic prompting me to break with my “normal” behavior. But my partner is no longer comfortable allowing me to have the freedom to go out with my friends and partake in drugs without her express permission, which she already said she’s unlikely to grant me. The other element to this is, we want kids in three years. We’ve agreed that I will fully abstain from all drugs after we become parents.
My problem is that I [am] trapped between a desire to meet the wants of my partner while also maintaining a degree of autonomy. When we discuss these matters—which we’ve been doing frequently lately—her argument boils down to this: “You did a bad thing, you need to make concessions so that I feel safe, you having to seek my permission makes me feel safe.” It’s coming to loggerheads and I don’t know if I’m the unreasonable one here, especially since I’m arguing for the freedom to do an illegal drug. I would appreciate your external, outside, drug-positive perspective in this.
Don’t Really Understand Girlfriends Sentiment
I had some emergency dental work done this morning and I’m a little strung out on… what are those things called again? Oh, right: drugs. Last night I selected the letters I wanted to respond to in this week’s column, and I really didn’t expect to be on powerful painkillers when I sat down to write my responses today. In all honesty, I probably shouldn’t be operating advice machinery at the moment but deadlines are deadlines. You should take my advice with a grain silo or two of salt, DRUGS, and everyone else should just skip this week’s column entirely.
Okay! DRUGS! Here we go! My outside, external, drug-positive-but-with-caveats (see below) perspective on your dilemma boils down to this: Do not make babies with this woman. Don’t scramble your DNA together with hers—not unless it makes your dick hard to think about begging this woman for permission every time you wanna smoke a little pot with a friend or take a fucking shit for the next 40 years. (And, trust me, you’re still going to want to smoke pot after the babies come.) If that kind of begging excites you, great. Have all the fucking babies. But if that doesn’t excite you… dude… run the fuck away.
Yeah, yeah: You did a bad thing. You had an affair four years ago and you made the mistake of telling your girlfriend about it even though 1) she most likely was never going to find out about it, and 2) you quickly came to regret it. Your regret wasn’t instantaneous—like you, DRUGS, your regret took a couple of weeks to come—but the fact that you haven’t cheated on her since is a pretty good indication that your regret was sincere. And now here you are four years later, DRUGS, waking up every day and getting back to work on those trust issues. Because you’re still in trouble. Because you made the mistake of telling your girlfriend about an affair she would never have known about if you had kept your mouth shut.
But you know… come to think of it… maybe it was a good thing you that you told your girlfriend about the affair, DRUGS. Not because honesty is always the best policy. The famed couples counselor and author and podcaster and Ted Talker Esther Perel urges people who’ve had affairs to consider the “burden of knowing” before they disclose. If you sincerely regret the affair and it’s not going to happen again and your partner is not in any physical risk and is unlikely to hear about the affair from a third party, sparing them the burden of knowing is the second-most-loving thing a person can do. (Not cheating at all would, of course, be the most-loving thing a person can do.)
So to be clear, DRUGS, I don’t think telling your girlfriend was the right thing to do because all affairs must be disclosed. I think telling your particular girlfriend was the right thing to do because she’s telling on herself now. If she doesn’t feel like she can trust you ever again—and if she’s constantly on the lookout for new reasons why she can’t trust you—then she needs to end this relationship. But she hasn’t ended the relationship, DRUGS, and you need to ask yourself why she hasn’t. I have a hunch: She hasn’t ended it because she likes it this way.
Someone who cheats and gets caught and discloses and wants to make it right can expect to spend some time, well, making it right. They should expect to spend some time in the doghouse and, to extend the metaphor, they should expect to spend some time on a short leash. But a person can’t spend the rest of their life in the doghouse. A cheater has to take responsibility and be considerate about insecurities the affair may have created or worsened. But if a cheater has done all that and years later the person they cheated on won’t let them out of the doghouse—or is constantly finding new reasons to keep the cheater in the doghouse—then the doghouse is where the cheated wants the cheater. Forever. Which means instead of being angry you cheated on her, DRUGS, on some level your girlfriend is delighted you cheated on her. Because the wrong thing you did allows her to control you for the rest of your life.
But it shouldn’t. And if she insists it does or that it should, DRUGS, you should leave her.
About those caveats: You don’t specify the drug you used in the backyard with your friend, but I’m gonna assume it was weed—which is legal where I live but not where you live. There is, of course, a big difference between stepping out to smoke a little pot after the girlfriend has gone to bed and sneaking out to smoke a lotta meth. And if you’re an addict and a little pot has led to a lot of harder drugs in the past, your girlfriend’s zero-tolerance policy might be justified. But if we’re not talking about hard drugs and you don’t have addiction issues, DRUGS, you shouldn’t have to beg your girlfriend’s permission in advance—which she’s denied in advance—to smoke a little pot with a buddy.
I’ve been listening to old episodes of the Savage Lovecast while working from home. Yesterday I heard you explain to straight male listeners that their straight female partners would say “yes” to sex more often if “sex” didn’t always mean the woman getting fucked. That really resonated with me, a straight woman with a male partner. When my husband came onto me the next night and I didn’t feel like opening up to get basted, instead of saying “no” I offered to jerk him off while he sucked my tits. It was great—for both of us! Total win! Thank you, Dan Savage!
Joyfully Enjoying Relevant Knowledge
You’re welcome, JERK! It’s always nice to hear from folks who’ve taken my advice and didn’t regret it!
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108 Comments
DTMF
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I’m not sure why Dan is being so rough on LW#1’s girlfriend here (other than that he likes pot and is averse to people who don’t). Is the girlfriend trying to control DRUGS (in a more general way rather than simply demanding fidelity and sobriety)? Maybe. If she actively links the cigarette/ pot(?) smoking to the cheating, then perhaps. But I’m not sure why it’s her responsibility to break up with the LW. He’s perfectly capable of breaking up with her, too. In fact, he is possibly more capable of breaking up since they started dating when she was 19. He may well be her only boyfriend ever, and she may not know that there are other options out there.No one is really in the wrong here; the issue is one of compatibility. It’s not bad to want to know how often your partner does drugs (I assume that’s the function of asking permission since the “sneaking” appears to be the big sticking point in this case.), and it’s not bad to want to be able to smoke without asking permission. It’s not bad to want to use pot from time to time. Neither is it a bad thing to be sober and to want to date and have children with another sober person. Most couples have difficulty when one person likes to use a substance significantly more than the other (and sometimes if one person likes to use substances at all), whether that substance is alcohol, weed, or anything else. If a substance-use mismatch is a big problem in a relationship, that relationship should probably end. Either party can end it.It’s also worth pointing out that contrary to Judd Apatow movies, having children does not miraculously change all of your habits. Some people stop using substances when they have children, but others do not. The girlfriend should not assume that the LW will stop just because they agreed, and if the LW can’t stop now, he shouldn’t promise that he will do so in the future. A baby will not automatically fix everything you dislike about your partner, so you should only try to conceive with a person who currently meets your requirements for someone who would be a good parent.
Also it’s not like smoking pot is automatically going to make you a bad/neglectful/whatever parent.
Living proof, yo.
For me the turning point was ”can only do drugs with her express permission, which shes already heavily implied Ill never get” because that’s about normalizing her right to dictate what he does, not establish rules around drug use. If she doesn’t want him doing drugs at all, then she needs to just say that an trust that hell abide by it, or they don’t need to be in a relationship together. (alternatively, if him running off to do drugs with friends is a real problem that shes trying to control by making him go through her first- that shit is not going to work an she doesn’t need to be in a relationship with him.)
Yep, that justification, “I view both of these as being a symptom of the lockdown/pandemic prompting me to break with my “normal” behavior,” is 1000% going to rear up again as soon as they have kids (and probably feature in more than a few other midlife crises, as well).
That’s the line that changes my opinion to both of them sucking.You don’t have to take back and forgive a cheating partner, but if you’re going to take them back then at some point you’re going to have to forgive them, but this guy sounds like he just doesn’t care about her boundaries.
Absolutely. So many people make excuses for their significant others, their friends, or themselves when stress is involved. Yes, the pandemic is stressing everyone out, and stressed out people deserve a little grace. But truly bad behavior like abuse isn’t going to just disappear when the pandemic is over. Ditto something less harmful like occasional drug use. The pandemic isn’t the last stressful situation that we’ll ever be in. Jobs are stressful. The death of a loved one is stressful. Lots of stressful things happen in life. Barring massive amounts of personal growth, who you are under stress is who you will be again in the future.
I think it’s fair to demonize the girlfriend. She won’t let go of something that happened four years ago, and Dan is right that she’s just using this to control the LW, as she tries to control all his other behavior.I don’t have much sympathy for the LW. since he must like being controlled on some level or he would have walked out years ago, but the girlfriend is also making him miserable enough to write into an advice column. These people would just both be happier apart.
No, control is a tightening noose. His guilt over his earlier transgression caused him to be too abiding; she took that submission and ran with it, to the point where she’s telling him what substances he can ingest, and what things he can’t do without her.Control always starts small—a demand here, a new limit there. But each time it ratchets up, that becomes the new floor, and slowly but surely your personal autonomy shrinks, and the control becomes more complete. When you finally push back, in my experience, that’s when the beatings begin.If someone is trying to tell you what do to or who to be, they don’t love you, get out now, before it’s too late.
Exactly this. She’s clearly wielding his cheating — again, four years ago — as a cudgel to keep him in line. That said, depending on what the drug in question is, this might be a different situation than we’re imagining.
“It’s fair to demonize the person who’s struggling with trust issues after being cheated on.”
It’s totally fair for the girlfriend to have realized, after a few months, that she could never trust the LW again. But upon realizing this, she should have said, “I know we both tried to make this work, but I just can’t get over the betrayal or trust you again, so that’s it.”Nobody is owed a second chance,, but by choosing to stay in the relationship after learning about the affair, she was making a commitment to try and get over it. Assuming she’s acting in good faith, if trust hasn’t been repaired after a few months — let alone four very long years — then it’s never going to be repaired, and without trust there’s no foundation for this relationship (particularly as they aren’t married, have no kids, and own no property together). They should just date other people and try not to fall into the same pattern.
Borderlines will hold onto “that one bad thing you did four (or ten) years ago,” then shame, blame, and defame you for the rest of your relationship. A codependent will rationalize the behavior and do nothing. Just DTMF. This relationship is doomed.
“You have to tell me when you do it” is slightly different than “you have to get my permission, which I’m pre-emptively denying.” I also do think that if you’re using something your partner did years ago and never repeated as a trump card to win tenuously related arguments, it is on you to be honest with them and yourself if you’re ever truly going to be able to move past this.
That said, I agree that Dan was pretty harsh here. “When is a zero tolerance policy for your spouse’s drug use justified?” is a complex and subjective issue, and your partner being more concerned about possible negative outcomes than you are isn’t prima facie evidence of ill-intent. I also don’t think the occasional joint is usually a big deal for an otherwise functional, childless man in his late ‘20s, but I’m aware that drugs don’t affect everyone the same and I was around for the D.A.R.E. program hysteria. The guy says they have a good relationship otherwise, so I don’t think we have to assume she’s doing this just because she gets off on the power it gives her.
The fact that the letter writer was so vague about the drug of choice makes me think it was likely harder than pot but the fact he was able to do it just the one time, tell his girlfriend about it, and not do it anymore shows he’s not an addict so doing a few rails once in a while isn’t a bad thing for a childless person. If they last long enough to have kids, I’m sure they might have to re-think that no-drug policy to anything to fall asleep for a few hours at night.
It’s not completely clear, but the sense I got from the letter is that he was sort of a casual drug user who wasn’t normally doing it on their property (why would they need an agreement for him to stop doing something in a few years if he wasn’t doing it at least occasionally now?) The guy doesn’t sound like a full-blown addict, but the point at which a partner might reasonably be concerned is a bit squishier than that. Some people might think weed is fine but coke is not. Some might think coke is fine but secret coke is not. People might put the “acceptable frequency” at once a year, once a month, or once a week. There are arguments for all of these positions, and I don’t think we need to litigate the exact point at which it tips over from a pastime to a problem, which is never going to be possible to everybody’s satisfaction; it’s more about the fact that they don’t really seem to be on the same page (or even all that close) about it.
I thought the same thing. This just sounds like people who want different things, not necessarily better or worse things. They need to break up, she can have a kid with a boring guy and eventually divorce him when him refusing to go down becomes too much and he can go on a late-20s, early 30s coke binge where he doesn’t quite catch the names of several of his one-night stands and loses a job or two before getting too old for that. Fast-forward to late-30s early 40s, she has really missed his cunnilingus skills and chilled about the very-occaisional coke snort now that he holds a job and is good to her kid and he’s happy he never forgets her name and they’ve been to enough therapy to act like goddamn adults. Happy ending!
Exactly – the ages really popped out at me. She’s been with this guy her whole adult life, and that bears consideration. But generally, 4 years is a long time, and if they haven’t found a good equilibrium in that amount of time, then it’s time to call it (definitely not time to escalate by having kids).
Is the girlfriend trying to control DRUGS (in a more general way rather than simply demanding fidelity and sobriety)?She’s not “demanding fidelity” though, and it’s ridiculous to frame ‘not letting someone go out with their friends’ as that.
And enforced sobriety? What sort of puritanical bullshit is that? If being sober’s so important to a relationship, I guess a guy doesn’t get to get his buzz on with some booze-and-tunes anymore either if we’re not being arbitrary.
If the latter was a deal-breaker for the relationship, it should’ve been a deal-breaker in the two years before the guy wanted to go to another continent and get some strange.
I think this is a good letter, and Dan’s advice particularly salient, because it touches on the way in which monogamy is enshrined in moral (and thus, derivatively and in this case tangentially, religious) tradition, and how it’s so culturally encoded that it gets a free pass in a way that expectations of gender wouldn’t anymore (on the whole).
What’s wrong is her effort to control what he does. If your significant other is trying to control you, it’s going to end poorly.
Rereading the letter, it’s actually a nice piece of writing. He references the cheating, acknowledges that he fucked up, and make it clear that he considers this to be the source of trust issues that they deal with daily. Then he specifically references two “recent” issues with trust. One of them is very small – smoking a cigarette – and the other is deliberately vague – “doing drugs.” It has the effect of making his girlfriend seem unreasonable, which she might be. We have to take him at his word, which we always do with these letters. But his rhetorical strategy is a lot more clever than most Savage Love letters. Then he changes subjects toward their future plans, specifically the expectations of his behavior (he doesn’t say “I won’t do drugs as a parent,” he says “I’m not to do drugs as a parent,” which is how you phrase a rule coming from outside yourself). And the conclusion neatly summarizes the ways in which his relationship is not making him happy. At that point it turns into a very standard advice-column letter, where the writer clearly identifies what they need to do but still asks the columnist to say it for them. The guy finds his girlfriend stifling, but instead of ending the relationship he wants his girlfriend to act differently. Whatever else Dan has to say, “Leave kids out of this shit” is the key to the whole thing.
“Then he changes subjects toward their future plans, specifically the
expectations of his behavior (he doesn’t say “I won’t do drugs as a
parent,” he says “I’m not to do drugs as a parent,” which is how you
phrase a rule coming from outside yourself).”This bit is why she should watch out. He absolutely will do drugs as a parent to judge by all the people I hear from who complain parenting hasn’t changed their partner/spouse for the better one bit.
(he doesn’t say “I won’t do drugs as a parent,” he says “I’m not to do drugs as a parent,” which is how you phrase a rule coming from outside yourself)Be fair. The actual quote is “We’ve agreed that I will fully abstain from all drugs after we become parents.” Which suggests that this isn’t his idea, but does state that he has committed to do this.However, agreed that the kids have nothing to do with his letter, other than as an indication that they have plans to make their relationship more permanent in the near future. Much better to deal with this now than then. Family Court judges are famously unsympathetic to guys who want to go out with their friends and do drugs.
Shoot, even for the internet specifying the phrasing of a quote I misquoted is poor form. I guess I caught the gist but got distracted from the actual phrasing by the work I was supposed to be doing while I wrote three paragraphs about this Dan Savage letter.
As always, the key to good AV Club commenting is being unemployed (which would explain why my comments haven’t been terribly great).
But I’m not sure why it’s her responsibility to break up with the LW.I think the point Dan was trying to make is this: nobody’s required to forgive anyone else; and the onus is on the person who did wrong to try to rebuild the trust that was lost. But if, at some point, the person who was wronged figures out that they’re never going to be able to let the offense go, it’s their obligation to break up, or at least tell the offender “I’m sorry, I tried, I’m never going to be able to put this in the past,” and give the offender the opportunity to decide if they should stick with the relationship despite that.According to the LW, the affair was a one-time thing and he’s done the work to rebuild the trust. But if it’s coming up in the context of him sneaking a regular old, legal tobacco cigarette, that doesn’t sound like LW’s girlfriend is working toward forgiveness, it sounds like emotional blackmail. I get where the LW’s drug use might be associated with infidelity (a lot of infidelity stories start with “…and then we started smoking hashish, and the next thing I knew…”), and/or the friend LW did drugs with might be someone LW could potentially be attracted to, but the LW doesn’t make those connections for us (and usually, drug use is the excuse of choice for one-night stands, not two-week affairs).
Maybe I’m being harsher than I usually would because I hate the passive-aggressive formulation of, “You’re not allowed to [smoke a cigarette/snort a few lines of cocaine/stick your dick in someone else/hang out with your friends] without my permission, which I have no intention of ever granting.” Why even introduce the concept of permission, if there aren’t any known conditions where you would grant it? It’s a scheme that seems designed to turn any minor infraction into a breach of trust, and therefore another excuse to throw the affair in LW’s face.
“Ask me for permission that I’ll probably never give” sounds bad, but it may well be the girlfriend’s way of trying to advocate for her needs without explicitly forbidding the LW to use drugs or issuing an ultimatum. It’s difficult to tell how much the LW’s tobacco/drug use may affect his girlfriend (Does he try to kiss her with gross smoke breath or climb into bed without washing the smoke off? Does he use alcohol or hard drugs and get violent? Does he promise to spend time with her, smoke pot, and then pass out?). There is very much a cultural script of judgy, scolding women trying to keep their male partners from having fun and exercising their right to bodily autonomy. On occasion, there may occasionally be validity to that stereotype, but the truth is that if you’re in a relationship and you use substances of any kind, that use almost certainly impacts your partner. Some partners won’t care. Others will be vaguely annoyed. Some will care deeply, sometimes for very good reason.As for the cheating angle, the LW says that “it has obviously caused some trust issues between us” and then talks about how his sneaking cigarettes and (?) is a violation of trust. I can’t tell if he is assuming that the cheating is the reason his girlfriend cares so much about the drugs, or if she explicitly said that his sneaking drugs is just like when he cheated. Only the later is problematic on the girlfriend’s part.
I absolutely agree that any person has the right to not have a partner who does drugs, or smokes, or even drinks, if that’s where they draw the line. But (male or female) they’ve got to draw the line. Permission works if you’re predisposed to say yes, but want veto power over certain details (I’m fine with you going to Vegas, honey, but not with Alice—she got you thrown out of a casino and arrested last time!). But if you don’t ever want to grant permission, putting a permission structure in place is worse than just prohibiting conduct. A prohibition has the benefit of clarity—you don’t want your partner doing drugs, or smoking, or going to Vegas, they know that’s a dealbreaker for you and can set their expectations accordingly. Making your partner beg for permission to do something they want to do, just so you can tell them no over and over again, and make them feel ashamed for asking? That’s a weird, abusive power game. I’m not sure that’s any better than the guy who wants to kiss you with cigarette breath or the guy who passes out after smoking weed.
I just wasn’t sure if “drugs” 100% meant pot. Smoking one cigarette and one joint shouldn’t be the end of the world (though I wouldn’t date a smoker). And it’s probably pot based on when and where he consumed it. But if it was coke or molly or even mushrooms I could see feeling more upset/betrayed
The girlfriend sounds like an utter cunt. Dan nailed her behavior pattern, which may be learned from earlier in her life.
The fact that the LW doesn’t specify what drugs makes me skeptical. People say “pot” or “weed” when they’re referring to (especially their own) casual partaking, they don’t say “drugs.” That letter has all the stink of someone carefully putting the best possible spin on their side of the story, and it still doesn’t come across smelling all that great. I read a letter outlining a pattern of behavior of playing fast and loose with a partner’s trust and then getting upset when that partner doesn’t trust you, and then I read Dan’s response going, “Man, you’re girlfriend’s a bitch, right?” Maybe revisit this one after the meds wear off.Associating post-procedure medication with whatever the LW is calling “drugs” without details is pretty disingenuous too. There can be overlaps between abuse of both illicit and/or prescription drugs but that doesn’t make the two same/same.
It’s time for Savage Nobody! The advice column that sneaks out to do a little pot and the comes back and openly does a lotta meth and then feels the powers of a god flowing through him and then picks up a lamp and shouts, “I am Darth Vaper! Fear me foolish Skywalkers!” It is at this moment that even Nobody’s imaginary girlfriend gets fed up and leaves him to stew in his own drug induced sweat so he takes off his shirt, revealing his very impressive one-pack, and then mops up all the sweat with it and then throws the shirt at his imaginary girlfriend who, despite not feeling it because she doesn’t actually have physical form, leaves him for a very real guy who has a disgusting addiction to sobriety. So just a typical day for Savage Nobody.Question of the week: What are your thoughts on a partner using recreational drugs?
I don’t want a partner that does not consider that, and I don’t want a partner who is 100% monogamous. With my current boyfriend we are first best friends and then partners. It works.
I would have to ask my partner, since of the two I’m the one that does. And they are ok with it because weed has the weird effect on me of making me want to pull weeds in the yard or clean the bathrooms.
“What are your thoughts on a partner using recreational drugs?”
I would have a problem with a partner that allowed recreational drug use to adversely affect relationships, finances, or commitments including work. Otherwise, don’t bogart that spliff and we’re cool.
Hmmmm…Ursa occasionally smokes a little pot with her girlfriends, or the occasional edible. She never does it at our home (kids). Usually on a girls’s weekend or trip. She either giggles uncontrollably, or falls asleep. Drugs aren’t her thing. The General could not care less. The General does not partake.
You married Ursa??? How’d Non take that?
The wife got her weed card and some tincture-type fluid you hold under your tongue. She rarely uses it for fun, mostly as a sleep aid. I asked her to get me a pen the next time she went round the dispensary and I’ve been taking some puffs here and there. Still figuring out dosage – I smoked a few bowls in college and the vape stuffs just hits different. I’m using sativa to try and get a “2.5 beers” effect without going full “Dave’s not here man.”Anyway, recreational drugs are great, just don’t make it your whole deal.
What are your thoughts on a partner using recreational drugs?“Who’s looking after the kids?!?”
“Oh, my parents?”“Then can I have some plz?”
Totally variable, depending on the individual circumstances (as long as it isn’t causing harm/danger to anyone, and/or impairing their ability to be a functional human being). For *my* partner, zero tolerance, because he’s got mental health and substance abuse history which mean it’s a very bad idea, and we’ve got small kids, and we’ve mutually agreed he’s terrible at moderation and thus should steer clear of things of that ilk. But, I’ve got friends who smoke pot all the time, and who are pretty intolerable without it. Their partners definitely don’t want them to quit. I even know one person (more a professional acquaintance than friend) who does all kinds of hard drugs during his off hours, and still maintains a good, well paying, demanding job with no problem. Somehow, for him it’s sustainable – he’s been living like that for decades at this point. He’s just one of those rare individuals whose brain chemistry allows them to do drugs like that and not ruin his life. I think of him as being in the same category as Keith Richards – still a living, functioning adult, but not sure how. But, he doesn’t have kids or a spouse (he did at one point, but when she wanted to transition to a more settled down lifestyle they got divorced).
I’m very appreciative, especially if they can get me some, too.
“What are your thoughts on a partner using recreational drugs?”As long as they share, it’s all good.
My wife does edibles and I’m OK with it (we’re in a legal state). She’s experimented with the harder stuff before we met but hasn’t done anything beyond pot for a long time. I tired the marijuanas once but it just doesn’t work for me, which is unfortunate I think.
I am, despite looser restrictions in my state, subject to the old rule making of Jeffrey Sessions, anti-pot advocate and evil Keebler elf. I’ve never done drugs and I assume I never will. I wouldn’t judge my partner for doing them, but until it’s decriminalized federally, I’ll just be binge drinking to oblivion I guess, like a responsible adult.
Ironic, because all the other Keebler elves look perpetually stoned. “Look Jeff, I know yer upset…I’m a go bake some cookies, right?”(BTW pretty sure the Jeff is for Jefferson in that fine ol’ joy-despising Southern gentleman.)
If she’s using drugs and not telling me that’s sort of a deal breaker. People who don’t share their drugs are the worst. Personally I’d like to hang out with that guy’s neighbor, sounds like a chill dude.
Exactly, if my wife was on the deck smoking up without me I would be mad I was invited.
My wife has a chronic pain issue so she takes a lot of non-recreational drugs. Including edibles to sleep. But she general only smokes it for fun and she is a blast when she is high(also she gets super horny) so I like it.
Totally fine with it. Been together 19 years and neither of us have addiction issues. Happy to see hubby let his hair down to be fair.
I’m at a point in my life where my body is so broken down that it can’t derive enjoyment from any illicit substance except food, and even that’s not without its consequences. Having a sugary soda gives me jitters and heart flutters, and forget about a caffeinated one.So… bitter and envious, I guess, is my response, unless they’re also having a bad time? Then not bitter or envious, but very confused. I once had a girlfriend who was super triggered by marijuana use from a previous bad relationship, but having her glass of wine with dinner made her horny.
I will herein confess to having had a lot of problems with that whole situation in theory, while having had lots of sex with a horny, slightly tipsy partner in practice.
Depends on the drug they’re recreating with, and how much of it. I have no moral obligations to smoking weed but my partner is NOT a hit it and quit it kind of person. I’ve seen him burn through half an ounce in a little over a week. That’s A) way excessive, B) too expensive and C) turns him into a couch potato who picks up no slack around the house. When he CAN be a hit it and quit it kind of person, then I don’t care.That said, if the drug he was smoking with a friend was crack or meth, we’d be having a conversation. I don’t want that shit around my house.
Whenever you have to say your partner will no longer give you permission to do something, it’s a bad relationship.
Yeah, I can imagine a letter from the GF’s point of view and either way I think they should break up. Co-parenting is a disruptive, challenging dimension to add to your partnership at the best of times. If you’re not on solid ground beforehand you sure as shit won’t be once there are kids in the mix.
Then again the partner took them back even after they confessed to an affair so not exactly the cheater has any room to cast stones here.
DRUGS: Have you had a drug problem in the past? If not, you have to decide whether your want your entire life dictated for you in the future or whether you want a degree of autonomy. If you’re good with being told what to do(or passive aggressively shamed into doing what she wants you to do, I see LOADS of that irl), then stay with her. If you want to be able to have autonomy, you can dump her and find someone who is a little less controlling…or even stay single, that’s a viable option too!
Okay, blah blah blah, I agree/disagree with Dan’s advice; whatever:Vis-à-vis LW1, there’s no way it’s weed, right? No one who smokes weed (or, God forbid, vapes) would say they “did drugs” with a friend; they’d say they smoked a joint (or, God forbid, vaped). What do we think: this guy snorted some coke to take the pandemic edge off?
It could have been shrooms.
I’m thinking coke too. I’m guessing that very few 25 year olds would be too upset if their partner smoked some weed after they went to bed. If he smoked meth or shot up heroin, he’s got some bigger problems.
He was deliberately vague, but the fact he did it only the once and was able to stop (if we believe what he wrote) then that makes me think it was just coke. I don’t think a partner would get upset over him taking non-addictive drugs like pot or shrooms. Hopefully.
The letter makes it sound like coke though I know a some groups where its just as likely to have been a couple tabss.
Hallucinogens aren’t really the kind of thing you sneak in after your partner goes to bed, though. You need a pretty good block of time set aside for them, and probably the same for recovering the next day.
And you generally need your partner to know you are doing them to be there to talk you down if things go bad. Never done them myself but I honestly would love to try them. I figure that is one I have to wait until my kids are old enough to not need me around for a long stretch of time though.
I’m guessing shrooms.
If I did shrooms with a friend in the back yard after my girlfriend had gone to bed, she would know even if I didn’t confess. On account of all the laughter and druggish comments like “My lower half is staying still but my upper half is all blurry.”
I can’t imagine taking shrooms late at night (after someone has gone to bed), unless the person is prepared to be up for a long time. I know that same logic would imply it’s not coke, but I can totally imagine someone doing coke late at night.
Assuming it’s weed (and also come to think assuming that the friend is male) does seem generous.
From the guy’s excellent diction and syntax, his international travel for work, and the fact that his home has a “communal garden,” I assume they’re English. I have only the vaguest idea of what “drugs” means in England, but I’m guessing it’s either cocaine or ecstasy. And of those cocaine seems like the one you’re more likely to do in your yard at night.
Just last night my nephew and I watched a video on YouTube (or as they say in Old Blighty: YouChube) of a Englishman taking us through the process of doing a cold water extraction to get all the opiates out of Tylenol-3s (his 7th grade [or as we say here in Old Canada: grade 7] class is doing a unit on the dangers of opioids — love this reality we’re in). He did use some really cute bottles though:
I hope they are also explaining that opiod use, when done under the care of a doctor for severe injury or chronic pain, are in fact fairly safe and that opioid abuse and death primarily comes from black market use of the drugs. As I have said here before, the pain doctors seeing a pain patient monthly and giving them fentanyl patches are not the ones causing the issue. Its the dentists prescribing 30 days worth of Vicodin after a cavity causing people to get addicted and/or flooding the black market with the shit.
Nah, of course not; this is for 12-year-olds, so it’s mostly “Drugs are bad; please don’t take your parents’ pills, no matter what your favourite rapper says.”
So here’s my thing, why would you do coke in the community garden instead of going back inside one of their houses? I mean like a key bump maybe. But if we’re talking lines I think an outdoor garden around neighbors would be a terrible place. I’m with Dan and assuming weed, and it’s just illegal and called drugs on that side of the pond.
I have no idea – I guess with covid going into someone’s home for drugs would be beyond the pale? Of course, sharing a joint would be even riskier. “Drugs” is a really vague word, which I think is the LW’s goal.
You never wanna do Coke in a breezy place.
Agreed, but there’s a lot of clean cut white people who were just raised boring and think weed is as bad as anything else.
So you have met my siblings. Well not my sister, turns out she is cool but my older brother was so concerned about my open drug use last year that he wanted to stage an intervention. Now to put this in context. I am 43 years old. I have an amazing wife, two great kids, a good paying job, a mortgage and very little credit card debt. I have also been smoking weed since I was 16. The only difference is the beginning of last year it was legal to buy pot in my state for recreation and I was just giving advice to my sister and mother about what would work well for them. My mom wanted something to help sleep and my sister wanted to just try it, since she had never had any in her life. My brother thought I was a junky 🙂
Yeah its gotta be something harder. His GF may be a controlling monster but its also possible this guy has a problem and she knows it. Also nothing wrong with vaping weed. Tobacco is stupid but I am all for vaping pot. The disposables are nice but I know they are shit for the enviroment. I have a PAX that takes either oil or lets me vape straight flower and its great. All the high with a lot less of the smell, which I will be honest, I have never really enjoyed.
The smell is terrible, I’ll give you that.
I heard it straight from a pulmonologist – smoke, don’t vape, weed. Something about our lungs not being built to inhale liquid in that way; he said it really isn’t good for you to vape it. (Edibles are what he recommends, obviously)He also said vaping and smoking cigarettes is equally dangerous and very dumb.
Maybe it was adrenochrome and his girlfriend doesn’t want him to harvest it from their child like the Hollywood and political elites!/Q_sarcasm_out!
Yeah, the type (and quantity) of whatever drug he partook in is the real key here. If girlfriend wants to give permission for someone to take two hits of a joint, then she’s got some control issues. If girlfriend wants to know if boyfriend is doing lines over the picnic table in the backyard, I think she is well within her rights. Mostly because coke turns people into assholes, but also because that’s putting her at risk too.
The smart thing to do would have been to break up with her after the affair. When people get stressed, unless they’ve gotten psychological help, they tend to revert to similar behaviors. If you keep finding yourself getting stressed and doing things you regret to blow off steam, its going to happen again because babies are a lot of stress. You two just aren’t right for each other, even though I applaud the work you must have done and the forgiveness in her heart to come back from an affair, Move on. You’re both still young and you can be with someone you didn’t cheat with that digs a guys who blows off steam with a little drugs, unless, and I’m getting this sense, you are looking for someone who is going to reign you in a little, someone who is going to “nag” you to shape up, so that you have something to rebel against.
Unless LW #1 has addiction issues or the drugs in question were extremely hardcore, his girlfriend completely overreacted and he’s gotta get out of there. Unless he’s leaving out A LOT of backstory about his prior drug use and how it has impacted his relationship, this is just about his girlfriend wanting to control him, and it’s not going to get better if they get married and have kids.
As someone who has been in recovery from phases of drug use that affected important relationships in my life, I’ve been a master of leaving out important story details. The vibe I get from this is drug-person who wants advice but is embarrassed by the full details.
… Is LW#1 Ray Fisher??
Also, I’m guessing cocaine. Shrooms seems too steep, he would be judging himself more about it if it were shrooms because he would be having mini-life-revelations while tripping. Shrooms and hallucinogens are usually planned out in advance and more pre-calculated. Unless he’s a heavy drug addict which doesn’t sound like the scenario here.
It’s definitely harder than weed given his phrasing tho. I was surprised by Dan’s assumption that it was weed.
I’d always assumed the cheater should confess, but this article changed my perspective on it. Cool.
I am man who survived domestic abuse. For years my wife, the mother of my children, punched me in the face, choked me and otherwise physically assaulted me, to the point where she was arrested twice and got two restraining orders. I’m free of her now, thank god.When I tell people about my abuse, it’s always about the physical abuse, because that’s what they understand as being horrible. But what was truly horrible was the CONTROL. The beatings only came about because I did not SUBMIT to her will. On my birthday, she got too drunk to go out, and when I went out without her, she barricaded our front door, and screamed “rape! rape!” when I tried to get back in. She ejected all my friends and family; she would lose her mind if I turned off “find my phone” because she insisted upon tracking me.Control is where the abuse starts. Indeed, some people say spousal abuse is primarily about control, that the actual beatings are secondary to that goal.If your purportedly loved one is angry at you for doing something without their permission, or in contradiction of their permission, LEAVE. Because it’s only going to get far, far worse, trust me.
To be perfectly honest, it’s 2021, Dan, you’re pretty fucking white, and therefore I think that your conflation of “drugs” and “pot” is way too 1960s.
I didn’t read that first letter and think “dude was passing a joint,” because if he was, he’d have said so. Despite what the federal government and a decreasing number of states might think, pot isn’t drugs anymore. So when you say stuff like “And, trust me, you’re still going to want to smoke pot after the babies come,” it reads a hell of a lot differently if you put whatever drug he was actually talking about in there.
That alone set off every alarm that wasn’t already ringing in my head. Literally the only people I have ever heard refer unironically to marijuana as “drugs” were preachy Reefer Madness types. Toss in that this guy was running the Classic edition of the Present the Most Lopsided One Side of the Story playbook already and if anybody needs to DTMFA it’s the gf.
The issues of how or if to forgive cheating in a relationship are complicated and sensitive, and every relationship (and every person in a relationship) is unique. But my sense has always been that if the cheated-on partner decides to forgive and take back the cheater, it kind of has to be a total takeback. Establishing a probationary period, where the former cheater has to constantly jump through hoops, seems like a recipe for resentment and acrimony. If you don’t trust the person after the infidelity, or if you’re just too hurt, don’t take them back. Taking them back without trusting them is just the worst of both worlds.
“It has to be a total takeback.”Hahahaha what?If you cheated on me with one of my friends and I decied to take you back, you think I’d let you anywhere near that friend again?I’d perfectly reasonable for the cheated on person to set parameters on what will work on the relationship going forward.
Okay, sure, the cheated partner certainly has a right to set boundaries. But boundaries concerning infidelity, like say enforcing no contact with the person he cheated with. Not other stuff. Drug use, although a thorny topic, has literally nothing to do with whether someone will cheat or not. The girl is only using the cheating as a way of dictating his life choices and severely reducing his autonomy. This is something that is always a big red flag in relationships and shouldn’t be tolerated for even a second.
It can’t ever be an unconditional, total takeback. That would just be a group delusion to pretend like nothing happened.If a partner agrees to take a cheater back, it can’t really be because they just immediately, whole-heartedly trust them again. If they claim that, they’re lying to themself. They take the cheater back because they believe they can work towards reestablishing the trust they once had. But it takes time to rebuild that trust.(I’m speaking generally here, not giving advice to the LW, btw.)
If you cheat and your partner takes you back, but demonstrates trust issues… that’s on you.They had no obligation to take you back. Honestly if they knew you were annoyed by these new parameters they would be well within their rights to dump you.Probably should have by now anyway.
Sure, I completely understand that. But its been four years, and it sounds like he has been more than reasonable and worked on it, especially when he came clean up front about it under no threat. If you cant forgive someone for an affair after four years, you either will never forgive them or are using that info to control your partner
I’d like to hear from the partner who was cheated on before I’ll pass judgement on them.We’ve already confirmed we can’t trust the person who lied to their partner once.
This is kind of it for me as well. I see a lot of comments about how this woman is clearly being too controlling, but in this case especially we do need to factor in that (a) people will always try to frame themselves in the best possible light, especially in letters like this and (b) this person has already admitted to being willing to betray his partner’s trust at least once. I kinda sorta feel like we in the peanut gallery at least shouldn’t be giving LW1 as much unquestioned trust as we kinda sorta are.
Definitely need to know what drug this guy was doing. Usually when people say “drugs” instead of being specific its something hard, like coke, meth, or heroin. I feel like if he was just smoking pot with a buddy he would say he was just smoking pot.But who knows. My brother-in-law has smoked weed for years but was shocked now that’s its legal in my state that I have no problem vaping or taking an edible when my kids are around . He said this at a party, while he had a beer in his hand after doing shots. I never understand why people think pot around your kids is some major sin but drinking booze is fine. Its all moderation and about being responsible.
My read is the exact opposite. This letter writer very skillfully paints himself as the reasonable one.
I don’t know that it makes the girlfriend reasonable (most likely they both have problems), but the letter writer strikes me as having a very have-my-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude, akin to, “I agreed that our relationship stability hinges on me doing certain things and not doing others, WHICH I HAVE AGREED TO, but isn’t my girlfriend unreasonable because I want to modify the terms that I AGREED TO without actually being straightforward with her about my displeasure at the current arrangement? Isn’t there some way that I can just start doing whatever I want and have her come on board without actually having to communicate, hear her needs and be vulnerable?”I’m totally projecting, but this sounds like the thought process of an addict who wants what he wants, and is very good at rationalizing how what he wants is what the world should want for him and how his want is really a need.
My hope is that these people lock each other down so that the rest of society is spared from them putting their personal carnage on the dating market. Or get some couple’s therapy.
I got a very narcissistic, manipulative vibe from it.
I don’t know that this guy is an addict (though he could be), but I agree otherwise. It’s possible that the girlfriend is controlling (I don’t have enough information to know one way or another), but he’s definitely got some issues. At the very least, he could be honest that he can’t or won’t live up to her expectations and he’s going to do x and y drugs and then let his girlfriend do what she wants with that information.
This dude saying he “did drugs” with a friend means one of two things: he’s either very repressed to the extent that he categorizes smoking weed as doing drugs; or he’s doing harder drugs, which means the leash should be tight. I think Dan’s rant about her enjoying the leash is pretty unsupported by the evidence in the letter. He was her first love, he betrayed her, and it seems like he’s had addiction problems in the past, given the one-two punch of sneaking cigs and “doing drugs.” I’m willing to bet it’s something like coke (he doesn’t seem to be the hallucinagenic type) and between that and the cheating she probably has every right to be concerned. Honestly, considering they started dating when she was a teenager, she’s probably holding onto him more than she should be, and feels like she has to stand by him through all his shit, and I hope she breaks up with him soon.
The baby would be more at risk if he were over 45 than if he smoked weed.
https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2018/10/older-fathers-associated-with-increased-birth-risks.html
I think Dan’s running up hard against the pratfalls of particularism in this column, because all I kept thinking throughout his entire response was “I’ll bet the LW’s SO has done the second-most-loving thing for this guy at least once.” I don’t even know if I believe that based on the evidence presented, but the Imp of the Perverse was singing it into my ear, and it was funny as fuck.Otherwise, it’s nice to get another reminder that most people looking to have kids are train wrecks who have no business procreating or child-rearing at all. Say what you will about the SO maybe being decent mom material, but in my view, picking your kid’s dad is a pretty major line item. You fuck that up and there’s going to be a ceiling on your final grade.
If the cheating happened years ago, and LW1 continues to need to work on the issues it caused, but strangely doesn’t describe any of the years’ worth of issues, except the most recent two instances, and only in slightly-vague terms that make them seem very minor—then I think this might be a selectively curated list of the couple’s problems.Is the partner even hung up on the cheating anymore? LW1 implies it by mentioning it, but he doesn’t say that she’s still bringing it up. Maybe she doesn’t care, but she’s still dealing with a boyfriend she can never count on.
Like, maybe she is overly controlling. Or maybe she’s got an untrustworthy boyfriend who is skewing this narrative too.Dan’s advice is sound, though. If there’s no trust, there’s no future. She should break up with him, but he can bite this particular bullet too.
with my girlfriend turned wife, i was very upfront with her on my vices (namely weed and the occasional party drug at a rave). Sure it sort of disappoints her, but we set the stage. It sounds like the DRUGS needs to have a similar conversation. “Yes I like to socially do drugs and enjoy a cig now and then, but it’s not a problem, I don’t have an addictive personality” Of course to say that to her, he should do a long look at hisself, his parents, and make sure that with confidence, he knows it won’t be an issue.