Who do you want to win the game of thrones?
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This week’s question is pegged to the final season of Game Of Thrones: Who do you want to win the game of thrones?
William Hughes
If our time together in Westeros has taught me anything, it’s that it’s a place where “good” and “smart” are typically mutually exclusive qualities. (Looking at you, Ned Stark’s big dumb severed head.) So here’s to the exception that proves the rule, and my pick for our benevolent future monarch: The Giant Of Lannister, Tyrion The First. Tyrion’s not perfect—his self-pity overwhelms his empathy more often than I’d like—but he’s the only person in the series who’s capable of understanding that smallfolk aren’t just a sort of two-legged cattle that crap out food to feed your castle, while also refusing to engage in the prophesied action hero nonsense that’s going to get Dany and Jon Snow killed. Plus, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, he has the most important qualification to rule of all: He really doesn’t seem to want the job. But unlike his boorish brother-in-law Robert, Tyrion is still a hard worker despite himself, something he proved ably during his successful stint as King’s Hand to his terrible double-nephew, Joffrey.
Sam Barsanti
There was a time when Game Of Thrones extracted a lot of wicked joy from subverting fantasy tropes, like when the ostensible main character got his head cut off and then when the other ostensible main character got stabbed at a wedding, so I’d like it to smash one last trope by putting Samwell Tarly, killer of white walkers and curer of greyscale on the Iron Throne. What better way to sidestep expectations than by making Jon Snow’s sidekick be the ultimate hero? It would be a victory not only for Samwell himself, but for Tolkien’s Samwise Gamgee (who Samwell is clearly modeled after) and for under-appreciated people named Sam all over the world—err, I mean all over Westeros. We’re talking about fictional Sams here. Anyway, just imagine the series of events that would have to unfold in order for this to happen. Maybe he broke bad and killed all of the serious contenders? That may seem grim, but King Sam (like all Sams) would surely be a wise and just ruler.
Alex McLevy
Sure, there are the contenders we’re all familiar with, but I don’t think there’s anything like unanimous approval of any of the leading candidates for Westerosi dominance. But I believe I’ve found the one person we can all get behind, someone whose can-do attitude and implacable badass behavior would find universal support should she call for it: Lyanna Mormont, a.k.a. Tiny Mormont. I’ve already pitched her spin-off series, but now I realize I’d much rather just see her assume the Iron Throne, dispensing tough but fair justice throughout all the seven kingdoms. “Lyanna: Once We Bend The Knee, We’ll All See Eye To Eye With Her” would make for a solid campaign slogan, and she’s certainly proven she can handle cowing an entire roomful of loudmouthed men with her steely resolve. Honestly, who could possibly be bummed out by this outcome? Hell, with some medieval instrumentation and a few tweaks, you could repurpose the “Tiny Elvis” theme song for her majesty. This is looking more and more like a win-win scenario for everyone, so maybe Cersei was wrong, after all.
Caitlin PenzeyMoog
Mine’s a bit of a cheat, but nevertheless: I want a lady triumvirate to rule together. The story Game Of Thrones is telling is about the transference of power, from the older generation to the younger, and seemingly—hopefully—from men to women. Westerosi history shows that men in power make bad decisions, but it also shows that a single person sitting on the throne is more often than not corrupted by power. Women should lead, and they should lead together. Daenerys Targaryen and Sansa Stark should set aside their differences and band together to rule; that much is obvious. But there will still be threats to the throne, and one of those can go from enemy to ally by joining Daenerys and Sansa on the throne—maybe Yara Greyjoy or a Sandsnake will make the trio complete. This way, the women won’t be dependent on marriage to seal pacts and power. They’ll no longer need men, in other words. I don’t see Cersei willing to share the throne, but the other women could be wise enough to realize that a true break with tradition is necessary to lead Westeros against the real threat of the white walkers. And if the living must unite to fight the dead, why not make that unification on the throne as well?
Erik Adams
Worthy answers all, but I must ask you, esteemed colleagues: Why not Pod? Sure, Podrick Payne is a relatively minor player in the great game. No, he does not hail from one of the great houses of Westeros, and yes, every other recognizable face and/or viable candidate would have to be wiped off the board in order for this lowly squire to rise to power. But you must admit there’s nothing objectively upsetting about this notion, aside from the deaths of characters we’ve spent much, much more time with, whose fates have been the subject of much debate and hand-wringing in the 23 years since A Game Of Thrones’ publication. Look, I just want nice things for Pod, whose sole victories in seven previous seasons have been “saving Tyrion’s life” and “being so good at sex that his money’s no good at the brothel.” Can’t the guy just catch the absolute biggest of breaks?
Katie Rife
Yes, Daenerys Targaryen is the neoliberal of the A Song Of Ice And Fire universe, a charismatic but mostly policy-free figure who preaches peace and practices war. More specifically, she’s the Hillary Clinton of ASOIAF, riding her previous accomplishments on a wave of perceived inevitability into Westeros to claim the title she sees as rightfully hers. But you know what? Let her have it. Underneath her grand rhetoric about breaking chains and adopting entire populations, Daenerys is a practical leader, one who sees the virtue in surrounding herself with people who know what they’re talking about. She’s not one for feminine niceties, but what good will flattery do up against the likes of Cersei Lannister, let alone the Night King and his undead horde? She’s got advisors for that—like Tyrion Lannister, who makes a better Hand than he would a king, and would probably tell you as much if you asked him. Whether her promises of a lasting peace after all her enemies have been destroyed are real, well—that remains to be seen. But wouldn’t Jon Snow make a handsome king? Maybe he could take up baking cookies.
Randall Colburn
Gendry spent three seasons in a dang rowboat before reappearing as a blacksmith last season, but the Flea Bottom denizen’s claim to the throne remains as viable as ever. In season one, it was revealed that Gendry was King Robert Baratheon’s bastard son, a fact that would’ve gotten him slaughtered had the wrong Lannister found out. Varys, knowing that the boy’s royal blood wasn’t strong enough to propel him through the storm of swords guarding the throne, ferried him off to the Wall with Hot Pie and a disguised Arya instead. The result? A few new friends and his uncle’s betrayal, which came in the form of a supernatural witch and some blood-hungry leeches. Now, after years of floundering in his powerlessness, Gendry’s cozied up to Jon Snow and, by extension, Daenerys Targaryen. Once the white walkers have been dispatched, will he assert his claim in the face of her own? Or will he, like so many have before, bow before her dragons? Hey, he’s got a hell of an argument, but Dany’s dragons have never been good listeners.
Nick Wanserski
I don’t hold out much hope that Davos Seaworth will make it out of this show alive. He’s just beloved enough—and just unimportant enough—to make an emotionally fraught, but non-plot complicating, sacrifice to the Game Of Thrones body count gods. But if he does manage to survive the oncoming wight flight and every throne-lusting Targaryen, Lannister, and Baratheon does not, Davos would make an excellent ruler. He’s a morally upstanding guy, which Game Of Thrones has made a point on numerous occasions to show how that’s a liability, but Westeros is going to be pretty wrecked-up after the ice crystals settle, and will need someone clear eyed who can unite the kingdom more than a merciless bloodletter. Davos is clear-eyed, and has proven in his pursuit of alliances to oppose the Night King that he places the best interests of the kingdom over his own safety or fortune. He also keeps his own finger bones around his neck for luck, which is both badass and folksy, which I bet is the sort of humanizing trait that passes for the all-important “candidate you want to have a beer with” in the brutal world of Westeros.
177 Comments
Wight Ser Pounce is coming back to claw some eyes out and take an ice cold dump on that silly little throne.
This. All of the Red Keep will be his litter box. But it will be okay since he probably poops ice crystals or dragon glass or something.
I mean, can’t be any worse than the new Pet Sematary
hot pie
If Hot Pie shows up this season, he’ll be fried to a golden crisp.
“He gave up on the gravy.”
Which is why wight Hodor will rule.
I would have lost all faith in humanity if, showing up a day late, I did not see this already posted…
If the show had balls, we’d see the Night King win, because ultimately the show (and books) are about the nihilism of human greed and inevitability of death and destruction that follow.It’s probably going to be Jon Snow winning last second with some McGuffin weapon like a petrified dragon dong or something.
Is that really what they are about? I don’t think it’s a coincidence, for example, that Ned’s still got living children battered but breathing alive right now, and Cersei’s children are all dead (despite the fact that they were ostensibly safe and secure living in the lap of luxury). In the end, ruthless ambition gets your throat slit, your children killed, or you get devoured by dogs. Playing the game of Thrones is for losers. That’s the real message.
I guess the message is that Cersei should have had more kids.
If she couldn’t keep her kids alive while queen regent in KL surrounded by allies, I doubt she’d have been more successful with any additional kids. The Stark kids, by contrast, were in constant overt danger and a bunch of them still made it regardless.
Which side of the ledger does Jon Snow count on, since he was dead for a while but is currently alive?
He’s alive because his friends loved him and convinced a witch to bring him back. Do you think Joffrey would inspire devotion like that?
Joffrey didn’t, but The Mountain did.
Not an especially good example. The Mountain was brought back in a manner the preserves his usefulness, but strips him of his sense of self. Hardly the action of friends.
Beric Dondarrion has said that he wouldn’t wish resurrection via R’hllor on anyone else, as it also robbed him of his memories from before his death. But the show seems to have dropped that.
Not really on the show, and again not really a good example since Beric’s issue is being resurrected multiple times. And clearly is far more autonomous than the Mountain.
Beric talking about his condition was in season 3, they’re just not consistent about it so that he compares Jon Snow’s appearance to Ned Stark’s (or perhaps his faulty memory is why he’s the only one to say they don’t look similar). He also seems more optimistic about his condition now.
What? Did you even read the books? The actual message is that the real dragons were the friends they made along the way!
Seconded on the Night King. I’d love to see him triumphant with winter having finally arrived and our heroes all slain. And as the camera pulls back from the bodies through the storm you see Tommy Westphall…. and pulls back a little further and John Munch is standing there with his hand on Tommy’s shoulder whereupon all TV shows are suddenly connected causing some sort of singularity ending all of existence. I do hope you’re wrong about Jon Snow, but fear you may be right. Honestly, I don’t want anyone raised in Winterfell surviving much less winning. The Stark kids are all a mixture of annoying and stupid, just like the parents. Let Varys turn out to be the hero who does something for the people rather than for someone who thinks they deserve to rule. Some sort of democracy breaks out in Westeros.
My personal pet theory is that the real message is that Richard III was right to dethrone and (possibly) murder his nephews. That letting a boy king and his ruthless, ambitious mother fuck things up would have been much, much worse.
That’s what I want, too. On a meta-level, it’s also been about subverting fantasy tropes, and it’s consistently revealed that the throne is deathtrap and the game is inherently corrupt. Leaning hard into an “all it takes is an even more badass group of fighters to set things right” ending is a betrayal of the best bits of the story’s ethos.
GRRM has repeatedly and vehemently denied any interpretation of the books as nihilistic. I don’t, frankly, see how anybody can read the books without picking up that GRRM is a romantic at heart.
I didn’t say the books themselves were nihilistic, but rather they showed that when men (people) give in to their base instincts the effect of that is nihilism inflicted upon the populace.The logical conclusion I was pointing towards was that when the supposed good guys can’t get their shit together, the Night King will win.
If the show had any balls, Varys would sit on the Iron Throne.
Cersei and the Night King on the throne at the end.
It’s my sense that Jon Snow will win. Dany is too likely to escape tragedy, and her demise will orphan the dragons. Since Jon has “dragon blood”, he’ll be able to adopt them, harness/command them and rule effectively.
tbh the books are really about/for the kinds of nerds who are more fascinated by battle tactics than the thrill of the fight. You know, those people who actually have a favorite war.
I don’t want some cliche happy ending, but I don’t want The Night King winning either. It would be a funny, ‘jokes on you moment’, for sure, but ultimately this would be a terrible ending that renders the entire show pointless. The futility of humans fighting for an insignificant throne is a huge message in the story, but not the only message in this story, and it doesn’t do any good not to make sure the characters learn from this experience. In Got, for better or for worse, the world should change, but it shouldn’t end.
Dang, no spoiler alert for the dragon dong finale?
I’m really surprised no one picked Arya. Not that I pick her either, but I was so sure someone would. I’m trying to think what job she would have under the Triumvirate. I don’t think she’d be a good Hand. She might take Varys’ job, but really, executioner seems to be all she’s really suited for now.
I can’t really make a strong case for Arya being the best choice, but I would still like it to be her. Maybe with Sansa and Brienne as her advisors/ the other two members of her triumvirate.
Kingsguard.
she’s a shit choice for winner of the throne, simple as that. advisor, warrior, assassin, sure. but queen? idiotic.
Yeah, Arya is my secret pick, not because I think she’d be a good ruler, but because I think she’s actually the protagonist of the whole series.For left field pick, Jaime is an obvious choice. He is arrogant and ruthless enough to manage a royal court, but he has a moral core that might make him a non-terrible ruler. As an ending, though, this would be entirely unsatisfying.So let’s go with the Hound. He combines a heart of gold with a deadly sword and a whole lot of not giving a fuck.
Criticizing Daenerys for practicing war seems like an especially weird one to me. What other options are there? Who are the monarchs or potential rulers in the story who don’t practice war?
I thiiiiiiink the writer is questioning Dany’s rhetoric of peace despite how she wages warfare like everyone else.
But is Dany’s rhetoric really just about “peace”? She seems to want revolutionary change (break the wheel) and she’s pretty practical about how that’s going to be achieved (“sometimes strength is terrible”). Dany does want good and peaceful outcomes, but her rhetoric and preaching is pretty ruthlessly honest about how she plans to go about it. Candidly, I like that about her.
I wasn’t really agreeing with the writer’s point, just clarifying it because I think it’s accurate in a limited sense.I think there’s something about Dany’s character that makes us interrogate her motivations more than any other character. I don’t want to think that it’s about her gender, though it goes without saying that Robert killed a bunch of people and then declared himself king, or that Jon’s so deeply destined to be leader that people beg to follow him. I don’t even want to think too hard about how both the show and the viewers perceive someone like Cersei – she waged warfare, destroyed a corrupt governing body, and decided she wanted to be queen. She’s got a rotten personality, but her actions are not viewed with the same neutral lens as the war Robert started, which I find a little suspicious.But anyway, I do think Dany’s the best choice for leader out of everyone who wants the job. She’s saying the right things at least, and I even think she cares more about the common people than Margaery did. Jon didn’t even want to remain King in the North for himself; he just knew that his people wanted it, which is why he resisted Dany’s demand for so long.
…it’s about gender. dany and cercei both.
I agree, but I dont always have the energy to debate it with people who aren’t actually interested in being better people so I take it off the table before it frustrates me.
very understandable.
It’s frustratingly true. Also, if I never hear the idiotic “reluctant rulers make the best kings” thing again it will be too soon. It’s moronic. Historically, the best leaders have, by and large, been intensely ambitious. It also serves to keep the status quo. If ambition is bad, than any lower class person (or, say, woman) who wants to lead is clearly in the wrong and “untrustworthy.”
For me, the real issue with Dany’s quest is that it’s all based on whatever crap Viserys told her. Every now and then the story questions why Westeros is her end goal when she has no memory of living there, but no real answer is given. Aegon the Conqueror had his sister’s premonitions of the Doom pushing him to travel, plus his story benefits from the vagueness of parable. At some point Dany needs to satisfactorily address the Westeros question
I mean, Dany also had visions suggesting that Westeros is somehow “fate”. And she’s essentially a person without a home, so it makes sense, psychologically, that she’d lock onto the home of her family. Especially in a feudal society that places enormous emphasis on familial duty. Like, why did Bonnie Prince Charlie want to go be king in England, when he could have lived more or less comfortably in France? He was born in Rome, lived in France, etc.
Isn’t Charlie largely considered to have been a misguided fool though?
Sure, but the question was about why a person would want to return to rule a place even though they don’t need to. It’s not that uncommon either. Justinian reconquerored parts of the Western Empire and it’s not like he ever lived in Italy or Rome.
My question was more why would anyone support her or root for her in wanting to rule Westeros.
The same reason enormous numbers of people supported Charlie? Familial loyalty; disatisfaction with the current regime; personal ambition… It’s not like Robert was an especially good king, and his successors are worse.
I don’t question Dany’s motives, I question her messianic complex and her extremely weird relationship with a bunch of lizards she calls her babies. The show doesn’t view Robert’s war through a neutral lens. One of the subtexts is that Robert’s war was probably as unjust as any other war. The precipitating “crime” — the abduction of Jon Snow’s mother — was revealed to be a fiction. And Robert, although maybe somewhat personally charming, was explicitly depicted as a terrible king. Cersei was also portrayed as having some sympathetic qualities early on. Saying she has a rotten personality is like saying Ramsay Bolton had some misplaced priorities. She’s as damaged and psychopathic a character as anyone on the show.
Bran says that Robert’s rebellion was based on a lie, apparently unaware that the war didn’t start with Lyanna’s disappearance but with Aerys killing Starks without trial and then demanding more heads.
The reason they didn’t kill Aerys and plop Rhaegar on the throne was the Lyanna thing. Maybe that’s what Bran meant. Robert ended up King because of that.
Robert didn’t actually start the war. He basically sat on his hands while Brandon & Rickard Stark confronted Aerys. It was only after Aerys killed them and wrote to Jon Arryn demanding Ned & Robert’s heads that Jon refused and Robert joined him in rebellion.
She never explained what “breaking the wheel” actually means. She intended to contrast it with the cyclical replacement of dynasties, replacing the current one with hers would just be another turn of the wheel. And as she has no successor, it seems that after her death the throne would be up for grabs again.
You do know she crucified hundreds, burns people alive (Khals and Tarlys), uses a slave army, abandons people of Slavers Bay, supports human sacrifice religion fanatics ?
I do know that yes. Tyrion and Jon (for example) also burned people alive, it’s one of those things that happens in war. And I’m not going to weep very hard for the Tarlys – fresh off slaughtering the Tyrell soldiers to a man and stealing the farmers’ food and then begging to be burned. And nope, not really sorry about the slave masters either. People who torture small children and enslave thousands don’t really get my compassion juices flowing when there are so many other people around to feel sorry for. And what was the other option with the Khals exactly? Quietly accept a lifetime of imprisonment? Let them rape her?Not sure what you mean by “slave army”. The Unsullied were freed and she clearly pays them, since they were visiting brothels and all that when she was in power.
I’ve never understood how Dany pays anybody. In King’s Landing we’ve got the Master of Coin position on the small council informing us of the kingdom’s finances. But that’s entirely skipped over in Essos.
Yeah. I think the books deal with that in greater detail though. So maybe it’s just a matter of skimming over stuff for the shows.
Good point. I guess I just assumed that Dany appropriates the fortunes of those whom she conquers—similar to the way she did after she locked that guy in his own safe, Cask of Amontillado style—and that’s how she gets money. People pay taxes in her conquered territories, too. I assume.
GRRM says he always wondered what good king Aragorn’s tax policies were, but I don’t think HBO is interested in that.
GREETINGS DAENERYSA STRANGE GAME.THE ONLY WINNING MOVE IS NOT TO PLAY.
Tormund, with Brienne as his bad-ass queen. Jon has taught him the strength and nobility of bringing disparate people together and Brienne would bring level-headedness to any rash decisions he might make.
no one seems to notice that brienne looks at tormund with absolute digust everytime he makes eyes at her. they just go ‘aww he’s got a crush, who gives a fuck what she thinks’it’s gross.
I love Tormund, but Brienne clearly does not and it’s obnoxious that the idea of anyone being attracted to her is being played for laughs. It grosses me out mostly because of all the rape jokes and threats she has to put up with when trying to get Jamie back to King’s Landing.
yeah exactly. i like tormund and i don’t mind that he’s smitten with brienne. the script writers giving her zero agency besides looking grossed out and turning away is icky though. it just reinforces the dangerous idea men are supposed to wear down women’s resistance and win them over. i’m afraid the show will give it to us too.
It’s because there are no women writing for the show. They can’t write women for shit. The only character development they can provide women is through rape or a monologue about children. When shows refuse to diversify their writing room it’s pretty obvious.
ayup
I got to go with Sansa Stark and Tyrion Lannister. Out of all of them, those two feel like the two people who could most effectively rule and guide what remains after in to something prosperous. Also while I always thought Tyrion was awesome, it really struck me while going through Season 7 how much I enjoyed Sansa. To the degree that I’m currently shipping those two together hard.
Are they still married? I know that they never consummated their marriage but what does that mean legally in Westeros?Edit: Never mind. I forgot that in the meantime she married Ramsey Bolton. I do my best to never think of him.
That and question consummation (real or not) between Margary and Renly was a plot point.
Are they still married? I know that they never consummated their marriage but what does that mean legally in Westeros?
Are they still married? I know that they never consummated their marriage but what does that mean legally in Westeros?
This is my prediction as well. I think it would be satisfying for them to choose each other, and it also makes a kind of symmetrical sense to me, based upon how they were initially wed as a joke/punishment, how Tyrion respected her boundaries, how they have both grown into political astuteness through experience, and how absolutely burned-out they are by romantic love.
I have always shipped Sansa and Tyrion
Best outcome: Tyrion is King, Davos is the Hand, and Sansa is the undisputed Queen of the North (running a semiautonomous region analogous to Scotland). Jon and Dany have to die to make this happen, but they’re the heroes and hence that’s their job.
Hot Pie, with Podrick as his hand.
Cersei can’t be stopped. Even when it seems like she should lose, she bests all comers and retains the title. Just like John Cena.
Cersei wins LOL
I vote for Cersei too. All the others fight the Night King and die heroically while she remains safe in King’s Landing. In the end, the fact that the Mountain is already dead turns out to be decisive for him to be able to defeat the Night King. (Sorry, no Cleganebowl either).
Except when it comes to having and protecting her children. She seems to lose a lot at that.
Baby #4 ain’t got a chance.
Little brother kills her anyway.
Honestly I think people put too much on her “love” for her children. Cersei wants power. She wishes she were the firstborn son. She’s furious her father even briefly gave more responsibility to Tyrion over her. She can inherit nothing, her only value was in her ability to reproduce and her children were only a conduit to allow her to rule behind the scenes. Like Dany and Sansa, she was sold off like a broodmare to fulfill the needs of men. She has everything she wants now and she went through hell to get it. She’s not giving up that throne.
That’s fair.
cercei on the throne in a room of snow and ashes, the palace surrounded by wights, completely alone but _on the throne_. the perfect ending.
She deserves it. The realm is too messed up to be ruled by anyone else. She will have this kingdom and she will burn it to the ground, just like she did to her husband, her brother, her family, and her children.
Brienne of Tarth.
She’s my fave, but could she rule? Her whole thing is about serving.
Perhaps she would lead a more modern form of government, where to rule is to serve the people. It’s a nice ideal that she seems to embody.
Maybe. I also keep forgetting that she’s actually nobility too. But idk, I’d rather leave her free to have adventures.
That’s a show I’d watch!However, there’s a theory that Brienne is actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne:
https://www.elitedaily.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actual-heir-brienne/1508809And she does seem like the dutiful type.
It’s the same argument I’ve already made for Gendry. We’ve seen him be a totally nice, cool dude, but people are being deliberate contrarians when they position him as a valid choice to win in the end. If anything, I have the most respect for Sansa’s eagerness to run things. She’s sick of other people telling her what to do, and Winterfell’s her house, and everyone else is stupid, so she’s going to set the rules for the dorks of the north.That Brienne theory is interesting and it’s possible that she becomes a bigger contender in the books, but I really doubt the show will go there. The show didn’t even bother with the book-canon identity of Coldhands because TV just doesn’t have the bandwidth for stuff like Targaryan crypto-bastards. But anyway, I just want to see Brienne survive the fight. I hope the show repurposes that moment in the books where Brienne sees Gendry and is struck by his resemblance to Renly.
Then her and Tormund’s monster babies will rule! Unfortunately, I have been paying attention, so I know not to expect such a happy ending.
Still one of my favorite things ever:
Wow, it’s amazing how symptomatic these are. I wish the Iron Throne to remain vacant, exactly as it was in Daenerys’ vision in Qarth. Unfortunately that implies everybody in King’s Landing is dead, so I also wish it doesn’t. In occupied throne scenario, the best that could happen would be Daenerys as senior Targaryen and “Aegon Targaryen” as the junior. (As near as I can make out, she is slightly older.) That is, if Varys and Tyrion are executed, and Davos Seaworth is sent packing. That dude is so intent on power he is going to set up his man as king no matter what. Which is why of course Seaworth has already revived the dullard Gendry, who is the boring ass Jon Snow has falsely been alleged. That’s his only function. And the only political principle here is that blood counts and there has to be a king with the magic blood. (And Gendry’s blood is magic, we’ve seen the proof.)
Jon Snow is supposed to be older than Daenerys.
Rhaegar was defeated and killed at the Trident. Tywin surrenders King’s Landing and the Mad King is assassinated by Jaime. Rhaegar’s now bastard children and their mother are immediatly killed by the Mountain. Then the rebels go off to kill Viserys and the newly born Daenerys barely escaping. After the fall of King’s Landing Ned Stark begins to search for Lyanna. The dialogue as I recall actually said a year but that’s impossible. Even a posthumous child could have been born at most nine months later. Dayne says he wasn’t at the Trident because he was ordered there by Rhaegar (to protect Lyanna and her child after it was born.) This is only the show but I conclude Daenerys is some months older than Jon/Aegon. Ned Stark to hide Jon Snow’s parentage might have falsified his birth date. The books, know nothing about them.
Dayne was at the Tower of Joy from the beginning, well before Jon was born.
GRRM has definitively said Jon is older than Dany.
Dayne being at the tower for a long time is true under any scenario, thus irrelevant. The only issue is when Ned started searching for Lyanna and how long it took him. Dialogue in the show says Ned was at the Trident. The notion it took months for the death of Rhaegar to be followed up by the surrender of King’s Landing and the slaughter of the innocents, then months more for Dragonstone to be taken is far-fetched. You care more than I do, you can go find the dialogue where Ned says he came straight to the tower right after the big battle. That’s how the show establishes Jon is older. As to the books, they are not definitive on the show, period. As to GRRM, sorry to shock you with my cynicism, but the author can be wrong.
Dragonstone was taken by Stannis Baratheon, but only after Ned Stark relieved the siege at Storm’s End, which took place after the sack of King’s Landing. Ned also didn’t necessarily know where Lyanna was (nobody else in King’s Landing did), so it could have taken him a while to find her.
Well, yes, I’ve been thinking, from the dialogue that it took Ned some time to find Lyanna. Since I don’t think he started looking til after the rebellion was basically over, is why I got the idea Daenerys is a little bit older. If Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, and Tywin surrendered King’s Landing and Aegon, who was keeping up a siege of Storm’s End, and why?
Mace Tyrell.
If you’d told me Mace Tyrell surrendered at Storm’s End, I’d have believed you. Book Mace Tyrell may be different.
Mace surrendered once Ned arrived. And Mace besieging Storm’s End is part of the show’s canon as well:https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Siege_of_Storm’s_End
Ah, I should have known better than to believe anything Olenna Tyrell said, especially anything demeaning about her husband, son and grandson. At any rate, yes he did “command.” But, no, he was not engaged in a long siege after the Trident and the sack of King’s Landing. But reading the link, it appears that the siege is lifted, Stannis is ordered to take Dragonstone and kill Viserys and Daenerys, while Stark begins the search for Lyanna. I still remember the dialogue was implying a long search, with Stark finally successful on the day of Jon’s birth. The only way to reconcile Daenerys being younger is to contradict (or correct) the dialogue so the search was a short one, while simultaneously fanwanking a Stannis who delayed for months. I think Martin goofed on this.
I assume the camera will follow over an unknown shoulder, focused upon the iron throne as the winner walks to ascend it. Cut to black.
The Night King and the series ends with him freezing the open sea, whereupon we get a parade of our undead heroes, humans and dragons alike, beginning the long march to Essos.
I think the Night King is shown meeting up with Sansa and Jon at a diner and it just cuts to black.
Can he have a wallet that says “Bad Motherfucker” on it? It can be human leather or something.
Sansa replies “oh I have the exact same one”.
She was good at embroidery, I bet it’s much nicer looking.
Hot Pie is going to rule the Seven Kingdoms, end of story.
Also, screw Sam as a pick. I know he’s a nice, loyal friend etc. but he’s such a boring, whiny asshat. Rule of thumb: all people in epic fantasies named “Sam” kind of suck.
With both Daario’s, and the crock pot from This Is Us.
The Night King wins and immediately destroys himself and his hoard…handing Westeros over to the people to form a republic.
Game of Thrones was the first of several books. It was won by the Lannisters. If there is anything to be learned from the previous seasons, it is that this will not have a happy ending with someone sitting on the throne while the realm cheers for them. The Iron Throne may very well be empty in the end, with no one having the power or desire to rule a starving, depleted realm.
I came here to say Dolorous Ed, he’s completely unsure of himself, so will take counsel, but he is brave and wants to do the good……. But Lyanna Mormont is the right choice. No explanation needed .Dany is just as capricious as the rest of the rulers, and who knows how she’ll let that aspect go once she has no one to fight.Jon Snow is an idiot. Brave but impulsive and dumb. Prone to an inflexible internal code that screws his actions repeatedly. He’s the Jack Shepherd of GOT.Sansa is no more bright than Jon.Tyrion is awesome…. But he’s an alcoholic. What happens when he can just sit back and drink and rule?I think a case could made for Jaime, with Tyrion as advisor.Gendry? With the world’s most plastic looking weapon? That guys a boob! Brave, but, shit!
Wasn’t Ed one of the traitors who stabs Jon in the book? Or am I misremembering?
I honestly would not be mad if it ends with the White Walkers nearly haven won, the Night King getting slayed by dragon or whatever and Edd being literally the only survivor in Westeros, being like, “Fuck. Just my luck.”
I’m a Gendry fan – he’s nice, he’s cute, he was a good friend to Arya – but the cutesy idea of him winning the throne is out of touch with what little we know of his character. He wanted to join the Brotherhood and have adventures. Now he wants to fight wights and have even more other adventures. He’s as upbeat as a GOT character can be, when he’s not being teased by the Hound. But he’s not a political leader.
What happens when he can just sit back and drink and rule?He’ll be Robert Baratheon, and the wheel will have come full circle
Calling Jon Snow the “Jack Shepherd” of GoT makes so much sense. Couple of well-meaning pretty boys who need to chill out and live a little. Does that make Jaime the “Sawyer” of GoT? Has some serious dad issues and seems like a dick at first but turns out to have a heart of gold?I don’t think Tyrion is an alcoholic in the same way that Robert was, in that it won’t prevent him from doing his job. He hit the sauce pretty hard after he killed his dad, but mostly he’s a very functional drunk.
My mom called Jaime “fancy Sawyer” when she first started watching GOT so you’re not wrong there. I even suspected that Nikolaj’s casting was good characterization shorthand, especially in the beginning when there wasn’t time to establish that he’s a handsome bad boy murderer with a secret heart of gold and the potential for a moral turnaround. They never said any of that. Instead they cast a guy who looks like Josh Holloway, and you immediately knew who Jaime was.Then again, my mom’s other favorite characters are Curly (Robb), Sad Curly (Jon), and Cool Ironborn Lady, so mayhaps I shouldn’t base any GOT analysis on her character names.
Oh yeah at the beginning of the show Jaime has the same hair as Sawyer. And they both go through some hellish torture over the next seasons.
Still, Arya will definitely be wearing Jamie’s face when she kills Cersei.
It’ll never fly, but you could do MUCH worse than Ser Davos.
I don’t care, as long as we get to hear the punchline to Tyrion’s honeycomb/brothel joke…
They discover oil and suddenly 3rd Marine Division appears to spread some democracy and freedom.
The point is that the wheel and I’m sure the throne is getting broken. The Enlightenment approaches and someone has to make a parliament.
Women should lead…. You mean women like Cersie Lannister… or Lysa Arryn… or Melisandre? No thanks.In the GoT world, neither gender has much of a claim to virtue. Much like our own.
Before he burned his daughter alive, Stannis was always my pick. I’m interested to see to what extent book Stannis diverges from show Stannis.
Frank Stallone.
It won’t happen, but my dream ending has Arya and Gendry ruling jointly as king and queen.
Arya and Gendry will be lady and lord of Winterfell, making both the end of the Sansa-Arya season 7 rift and Gendry’s “you’ll always be milady” ironically fulfilled.Sansa is on the iron throne, with Tyrion as hand. Jon and Daenerys are dead.
I’ve heard a lot of people vouch for Sansa on the the throne, but her claim isn’t very good, is it?
If there’s a war, maybe. Robert has no claim until he declared himself king.
Assuming that Cersei, Euron, Jon and Daenerys all die (and Jamie probably dies):Most of the major houses, including the two royal lines (Baratheon, Targaryen), are extinct. Tyrell, Tarly, Bolton, Frey and Martell are already extinguished, with no living members capable of inheriting. Baratheon could theoretically be reinstated through Gendry if he were legitimized, but I doubt he’s going anywhere other than either with Arya or dead, and Arya does not want to be queen. Greyjoy, Arryn, and Tully are still hanging in there with theoretical heirs, but the first is much reduced from its former power and the latter ones are minor houses at best. It’s very hard to see Edmure, Robyn, or any Greyjoy on the throne.So, the only major houses are Stark and Lannister, and if Cersei and Jamie are dead, Tyrion is the last Lannister standing, and he is not likely to sit the throne. That just leaves Sansa. And metatextually, her story and her odd relationship with Cersei has a very Tudor flavor to it, with Sansa in the role of Elizabeth.
on the show, Sir Davos would get my vote for sure – he’s an elevated commoner who would rule with the people’s best interests in mind.in the books, tho? Selmy Barristan is still alive and he’s the man.really, tho, i’ll be happy as long as things end with Arya just riding out into the wilderness to hunt Lannisters with Nymeria’s pack, maybe snacking on some Hot Pie-brand hot pies from time to time.
dark horse pick: Hot Pie
Ser Pounce. Ghost could be his hand.
Question: Do the seven kingdoms actually have to stay united? As far as I can tell (and I’m far from a GOT deep reader, so correct me if I’m wrong) the kingdoms were all independent until a foreign conqueror swooped in and forced everyone together. It might be too easy and obvious to just say that there should be no ruler, but to me it’s odd that no one’s questioning that they should maintain the Targaryen system. Why not just be separate kingdoms again?
Yes, the kingdoms were independent until the Targaryens invaded Westeros and united them (with Dorne staying independent for a long while until it came under Targaryen rule through marriage). I’ve had the same thought that there may not be a good reason for Westeros to be ruled from King’s Landing by a single family. Theoretically a united Westeros would be less prone to warfare, but that definitely hasn’t been the way it’s worked out over the past few decades of its history. And Dorne, the Iron Islands, and the North all have strong regional identities that seem to trump loyalty to the crown (depending on who’s wearing it). On the other hand, starting with Aerys II Westeros seems to have had a run of unusually bad rulers, so maybe a king/queen who isn’t a lunatic and/or a drunk and/or a psychopath and/or a child and/or a paranoid narcissist might have a better go of it.
Bron
I’m all in on Bronn
Honestly? Really truly? I hope Cersei wins and keeps it. It’ll be a Pyrrhic victory, but I think it would be absolutely appropriate for a series that has consistently valued pragmatism over honor to give the Iron Throne to the Game’s longest player. She’ll almost certainly be left without an heir, or perhaps even much of a country to rule. She certainly won’t control the North anymore, but who knows.
I want Meera Reed to win. She deserves something for the nonsense she had to put up with north of the wall
There’s a theory floating about that Meera is actually Jon Snow’s twin. Howland Reed was with Ned Stark at the Tower of Joy when Lyanna supposedly gave birth to twins. For safekeeping and to arouse less suspicion, they each took one. Meera looks nothing like her brother Jojen and quite a bit like Jon. She’s also a little sulky, no?
http://www.asoiaf-theories.com/meera-reed-jon-snows-twin-theory-sister/
So no one wants the Hound to be king?
I want the Hound to be a grumpy farmer with an old dog that mostly just naps and farts.
George RR Martin laughing as he chokes on blood and snow seems about right to me.
Only if it is served in a trencher with capers and mushrooms and…..
Theon.Consider the following:1) Of all the prominent characters still alive he is the only one viscerally aware of how wrong things can get when power is wielded improperly. 2) He is the only one actually ravaged by guilt for his previous misdeeds.3) He is the only one that well and truly suffered from them. Literally no one (still alive) on the show has suffered worse than him.4) He is also the only one who well and truly turned a corner from his old self.And finally…5) He is probably the only person that genuinely believes he doesn’t deserve to sit on any sort of throne, and for that position of power I practically consider it a job requirement.
He can’t have children, which is a problem for an hereditary seat.
Unfortunately, it’s kind of difficult for Theon to sit on anything these days. That’s why he prefers to hobble and grovel, as the situation calls.
Let’s be real: for whatever it matters to reality in a fantasy series it can only be Cersei, Jamie, Jon, Danaereys, Sansa, or (Longshot) Gendrey. Anyone else ensues more civil war and that cannot be the series ending.
“Westerosi history shows that men in power make bad decisions…”
…Danaerys, Lysa, CERSEI….I’d argue that Westerosi history shows people in power make bad decisions. I’m hoping no one takes the throne, that the citizens form an anarcho-syndicalist commune, taking it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, but all the decisions of that officer having to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major…
My vote is no kings, just as someone is about to sit on the throne there is an uprising, all the monarchs are beheaded, and Democracy sweeps Westeros. Otherwise I’m team Night King.
Hot Pie, the first of his name.
I want the ultimate happy ending. The Night King is defeated. Dany sits on the Iron Throne, with Tyrion and Missandei as her Hands. Greyworm becomes Commander of her Queensguard. She names Sansa Stark Wardeness of the North, with Brienne by her side. Arya becomes The First Sword of Braavos, the all-new, all different Brotherhood without Banners is formed which includes, The Hound and Gendry. Cersei is imprisoned. Jon Snow decides to go North beyond the wall with Ghost by his side. Podric marries and settles down. Hot Pie eventually buys his own inn. Varys disappears. Somehow Dany’s dragons lay a clutch of eggs…
If Tyrion Lannister does not survive, I promise you all I will be properly annoyed.
A few years back, my money was on Margaery Tyrell, she just seemed so tacitly smart and adaptable compared to most other characters ruled by emotion. She flew under the radar, but she was the only semblance of a “good” ruler Kings Landing had ever shown. Olenna did the dirty work, but it was in service of the ‘right’ thing in Marge. I put all my eggs in that basket. Now, I have no idea. Entire houses are getting wiped out left and right, and the ones left standing barely have any heirs left.
Dany because she has dragons. Jon because he is the only truly interesting character left on the show and he has a wolf. Ned Stark because Sean Bean is great. Cersei because Lena Headey is the actress from the show I fantasize most about. Whichever character kills Brienne, Jamie, Tyrion, and Bron. Arya because she murders bad people and has a wolf. Arya again because she seems to be the only Stark who is capable of making tough decision, and by tough decisions I mean deciding to murder the people who should be murdered. But Dany because she has dragons and the dragons have played a bigger part in the show than have the dire wolves. I’ll take an ending that has the wolves ruling the north and the dragons ruling the southI watch the show and like parts of it. but without the boobs and dragons and wolves it is mostly kinda boring and Weiss and Benioff are not good story tellers. Too bad rich material like this couldn’t of been put in the hands of capable people.
Holy crap. They have it online secretly early just for today. A title screen. ONE YEAR LATERIt opens showing a familiar door in Winterfell. There’s screaming and shouting and the sounds of battle. The door flies off its hinges as a body with familiar hair, from behind flies through ir as if kicked through. It’s Jon Snow. He’s lying there bleeding to death similar to when he was at the Wall. Then out of the doorway it shows somebody coming out but only their frosted boots. Then it pans up. It’s ARYA! But she’s a White Walker. And up from behind her the Night King comes and puts his hand on her shoulder. She leans back and they kiss. Then the Night King’s face changes still blue though into the face of Arya’s fencing tutor. I forgot his name. Then the title screen begins like usual showing the lay of the land. Except everything is covered in snow everywhere. Then the show starts again where it left off and Arya and the Night King walk through Winterfell into the throne room. This will excite you book fans. On the throne is Lady Catlyn but she’s now Lady Stineheart. All of the sudden she stands up smiling and starts convulsing and then she bursts into a pile of confetti.APRIL FOOL’S!
I’d go with Daenerys dream/vision – the Red Keep will be in ruins (probably destroyed by her dragons) and the Iron Throne will be empty. It will still be winter, and Daenerys burned most of the food that Kings Landing needs to survive it.“Game of Thrones” was just the name of the first of several books. It might not be about that anymore.
Hot Pie
I’m not fussed. I’m just hoping for the main players to settle it by playing musical chairs/thrones.
I want for all the poor inhabitants of Westeros, whose relatives have suffered and died during the endless wars, to realize that that they are merely pawns in this game being ruled by an elite class, whereupon they rise up and execute their leaders, and seize the machinery of state to form a new utopian society formed around anarco-syndicalism, the Iron Throne being melted down and sculpted into a stirring statue of the worker striding toward a glorious future free of class or caste.
it will be Varys. he is Vir from Babylon 5, winner at the end/ humblest of them all. he will be elected President or some elected role. same as Hurley or Rom as Grand Nagus.
you aren’t liveblogging!they just had an SNL dog watches owners bang moments with the dragons!
Bronn. Next question.
My personal guess is that no one is technically going to ‘win’, in that the whole thing is going to collapse and something new is going to emerge out of the ruins. I expect that the Iron Throne is going to be symbolically destroyed to underscore just how ultimately futile all of the scheming is in the long scheme of things.
No one.Humanity wins the fight against the Night King, but the cost and damage essentially wipe out most houses, the nobility and the whole system itself.The Game of Thrones ends with no winners, gods or kings.Only men.
The arguments for a lady triumverate seems to ignore than the women on the show are just as petty and awful as the men. Sansa wanted to punish children for the actions of their fathers (and seems to be a good deal more like Cersei than Ned), and Daenarys solves problems by burning people which only creates more problems later on. Even Lyanna Mormont seems as insular as the rest, too bound by historical grievances to see the bigger picture. The only character in the whole sweep of the show who would make a good ruler would have been Margaery Tyrell – although she seemed to manipulate the poor as part of her politicking, at least she showed some awareness of their suffering. Jon is maybe the second best choice, but he seems far too hotheaded, despite being one of the more compassionate people
If you think it is climate change metaphor about how a squabbles over day to day politics prevents society from address slow creeping but existential threats until it is too late, No one everyone dies. (When I read the first book back in 1996 this is what I believed would happened and what I was rooting for. Now I am less sure what I want) If you view it as fantasy version of the War of Rose than Grendy makes the most sense. Harry VII, at Tutor, eventually end up on top of that despite a pretty weak claim to the throw (illegitimacy and inheritance on his mother’s side) after the Lancaster and Yorks pretty destroy England.
If you dread that what start out as remedy to the good v evil narratives of high fantasy is being coming that than Jon and Dansey as king and queen makes sense. If you want the most out of left field ending, Bran woggs back in time, not become Bran the Builder as lot of fans have guessed, but to stop the war between the Children of the Forest and the First Men so there are no White Walkers. Thus starting a completely new timeline. And if you want that out of left field ending but super depressing, nothing he can do stops it, time is flat circle.
A triumphant Night King would be way too easy, nihilistic and dumb. Cersei is the elevated choice for a deep and brilliant villain victory.