Batwoman’s season 2 premiere answers the question, “What Happened To Kate Kane?”
TV Reviews Fictional characters
When Ruby Rose announced she was leaving Batwoman last May, one of the biggest concerns was whether her character’s departure would affect the momentum the show had built by the end of season one. The season-two premiere answers that question right off the bat. With Ryan Wilder on the case, Batwoman can absolutely go on.
The premiere episode, “What Happened To Kate Kane?,” opens as Ryan Wilder (Javicia Leslie) is jolted awake by a plane crash. Even before the news is made official, it’s not hard to guess who’s on that plane. But it doesn’t make it any less of a shock for Luke Fox (Camrus Johnson) when he realizes that it’s Kate’s flight.
And it is a bit jarring. Batwoman was the first CW/DC show to have its lead actor leave so unceremoniously. But killing Kate off? Not that it’s entirely unfair or doesn’t work; on the contrary, as the episode goes on, it works fairly well. But it still feels unexpected—at least, I didn’t expect it. Not that the Arrowverse is opposed to killing off main characters or even leads, but it was still a little bit of a shock, and made all the more significant by the reactions of Kate’s loved ones.
Ryan has her own tragic background, including witnessing a vicious attack on her own mother (which is introduced in an abrupt manner, and shown a few times throughout the episode). While Ryan has a visceral reaction to the crash, she salvages the Batsuit from the wreckage. This tech will soon afford her a chance fight back in a way she couldn’t when her mother was attacked.
As the episode unfolds, it becomes clear that Ryan is about as different as could be from Kate Kane. She lost her biological parents, but even once her adoptive mother took her in and she started to flourish, things went poorly again. Ryan and her mother were brutally attacked on their first night in their apartment, with her mom dying in front of her eyes. As the flashbacks show, she’s not rich or from an influential family; she even has a record. Ryan knows struggle and pain in a way that Kate didn’t. But that’s what makes her wearing the cowl and cape even more interesting. Ryan tells Luke and Mary (Nicole Kang) that she’s not the symbol of hope and courage Batwoman has come to be. But she is a number, she says, as she recites all the ways she’s targeted by the system and society: how she’s been given little to no chance to succeed, and just wants this one shot to seek vengeance for her adoptive mother’s death. However, she doesn’t say actually tell them all of that; Mary finds that out while digging later.
Ryan is someone who suffered greatly at the hands of Alice’s gang, who knows first hand that the “Crows are dirty.” Ryan says she’s the “very definition of powerless.” In that sense, it’s almost more powerful to have her in the suit at the end of the day. But that’s getting ahead of the narrative, as she doesn’t actually take on the role—yet.
For once, Alice (Rachel Skarsten) finds herself at a bit of a loss for how to move forward with her schemes. After all, Kate’s (presumed) death has put a big damper on her sadistic plans to have Jacob Kane (Dougray Scott) kill Batwoman before ripping off the cowl to reveal she’s his daughter. Alice is pissed. She’s also grieving, but the rage is never far from the surface. The complicated Kane sister tension from season one lives on, even if Kate doesn’t. And it might be best for the show if Kate is gone for good.
“What Happened To Kate Kane?” is fairly packed with revelations, including some incredibly obvious ones, like Jacob’s damning realization that Kate was Batwoman after she’s already gone. Same with Sophie. There’s also Luke finding out that he handed Kryptonite to the man who killed his father, even after Tommy/Bruce slipped up about Alice/Beth in Luke’s presence. These realizations are framed as bombshell revelations on screen—and maybe they were for some—but really the only one that was truly surprising was Jacob’s. Sophie’s and Luke’s epiphanies were just so glaring; we’d all been waiting for those particular shoes to drop.
The highlight of the premiere is the arrival of Javicia Leslie. It takes a lot to join an established on a major network show in any instance—but to be the lead in a superhero show, donning the cape and suit on the first episode is a whole other task. Leslie is a lot of fun to watch, whether it was her joy as Ryan when she’s flinging Batarangs around for the first time, or her endearing nature while talking to the plant that she (maybe) associates with her dead mother. Besides the showmanship of being Batwoman, Ryan Wilder has a really good heart. It’s going to be really interesting and exciting to see how the show deals with a Batwoman that doesn’t come from a privileged Crow background.
By the end of the premiere, Ryan’s come to the realization of what a true hero is much quicker than Kate does—or rather, what a hero isn’t. She reads up on Kate’s past, finds out that she did stick up for those less fortunate, and shared common ground with Ryan: they’re both queer. Even before Ryan beats Tommy Elliot to a pulp, she thinks she’s unworthy. But afterward, she tells Mary and Luke that the suit and Batwoman are “bigger than me; it’s one thing to put it on, and it’s another thing to wear it.” Of course, she doesn’t know that Kate killed a man because of her own anger and desire for vengeance.
Ryan seems to be the complete opposite of Kate. She’s full of life, she’s funny, and she willingly gives up the suit because she knows it was the right thing to do. However, just like Kate, she has a hero’s heart. And the show seems to be in good hands with Javicia Leslie.
Stray observations
- Okay, well a lot has happened and changed since the last time I put in a review for Batwoman. But thank you for joining me again for season two! I’m very excited to explore this new season. Javicia Leslie showed that she can carry this show, and I am very excited to see what the writers do with Ryan’s character.
- Alright, a new season of Batwoman means we have new reasons to love Mary. We all need a Mary when times get rough; look at how good she is at calming Luke and Jacob down! However, who is there for Mary when times get tough??? *insert crying face.*
- Both Mary and Luke understand the pain of losing a parent to murder, so they understand Ryan’s grief when she takes the suit to go after Alice’s gang, probably better than anyone Ryan’s met since her mother died. That was an interesting dynamic to see, especially considering none of them have really healed from their trauma. Not to mention, Ryan decided to make the right decision on her own.
- “There’d be no Batwoman without Luke Fox.” Again, Mary, bless you.
- Did anyone else laugh when Alice said she was, “tethered to reason”? Or better yet, how about when she called Tommy “Bruce Lame?” Why have I never thought of that?
- “A lesbian superhero who could have killed me a thousand times but didn’t? Gee, who could that be?” was hilarious and superb delivery, but it was hard to enjoy Alice’s line when Jacob looked so defeated.
- At the end of the episode, Ryan is infected with kryptonite from the looks of it. In Smallville, humans were turned into metahumans when that happened, so is that’s what’s going on here? Something else? Much to think about.
- The Safiyah plot thickens, and she’s supposedly the one who took Kate’s plane down, given her “Consider us even” newspaper message for Alice. But now Alice thinks Gotham is ready and waiting for a full-on war. Season two is shaping up to be big, with action galore. But fingers crossed for fewer dead Mouse hugs.
- We’ll be dropping in on the show throughout the season, including coming back for the mid-season and finale episodes.
205 Comments
I forgot that Mouse died at the end of the last season. What’s also upsetting is that there likely won’t be a crossover ever again between Supergirl and Batwoman (which is a travesty). I am interested to see what direction they take Leslie’s character.
Mary status: still the absolute best.All in all, yeah, that was a perfectly solid second pilot for the show. Ryan seems like a fun character in a way Ruby Rose’s Kate didn’t. I did have a laugh at the parole officer mentioning Ryan’s martial arts experience, very subtle that. My guess is they were originally going to string out Tommy as Bruce Wayne (btw, bad look for Luke not picking up that Tommy didn’t know how to get into the Batcave, Bruce is so disappointed), but since Kate’s no longer around he is sort of superfluous so i’m glad they wrapped that up quickly. I am still fairly convinced they’re going to recast Kate at some point down the line, just having her vanish back to her home planet seems like an odd plot thread to leave dangling, since Dries claims Kate’s not dead. ps that was bar none the worst Batmobile ever, right?
Well, they did make it based on the C7 Corvette (from what I could see, which made perfect sense since the C8 wouldn’t have been in the Batcave if Bruce had been gone for years), so at least they properly placed it in a realistic time period. Other than that…. yeah, it wasn’t too flashy or memorable.
The batman and robin batmobile will never be dethroned from that title.
Maybe, but this was just…a car. It was like something you’d expect from a rejected reboot of Knight Rider, only without the cylon eye in the hood.
My guess a)budget and b) the early buzz from the Pattinson mobile were factors.
Nah, I had that toy as a kid and it was cool. This Batmobile was just the production team going to an Audi dealership and going “okay but can you make this look cooler? I don’t care how, just make it cool. We’ll make it shoot fire like the 89 one, that’ll shut the fanboys up, right?”
See that was the problem right there. It wasn’t a car, it was a lifesize toy that Clooney and bad CGI Clooney sat in. (Not saying the BW mobile is the best but even it’s cheap sports car mod is better than the life size Mattel Batmobile)
That at least looked unique. As others have said, this was basically just a regular ass car with slightly different spoiler.
I think in these DC shows are are SLIGHTLY more grounded in reality, that Batmobile made sense. It’s clearly not an off-the-lot car, but it still blends in a bit and is something you might not notices if it were driving behind you. I mean, it still had the flaming tailpipes etc, but seems to be in keeping with the more “regular car” look they’ve been going for lately. Actually, I just watched the animated Batman: Soul of the Dragon, and that batmobile was very similar to the one in Batwoman as well, so maybe they’re just trying to get away from the ridiculous wings/fins of the 90s and the street tank of the Nolan films.
I liked it, actually. It was a bit understated yet had to be its own CW thing.
The original comics Batmobile was literally just a red car. I mean, it had running boards like all cars back then, but it was still pretty lame. It would be hard to make one worse.
Yeah, I get the feeling that if Rose hadn’t quit, this “Bruce Wayne” would have stuck around for at least a few episodes. But since they had to redo all their plots, they probably wanted to resolve this one ASAP.
I have mixed feelings on this. To get the bad out of the way first, I’m not too thrilled with how fast they’re pairing up Ryan with the rest of the Batteam, I’d hoped that this would be a gradual thing, and while they’re not together by the end of the episode it feels like it’ll be not to long before it happens.The second thing which hasn’t really been quashed at all is the fact that Ryan doesn’t really seem to have a life of her own. Families dead but does she have any friends or ex-girlfriends or whatever? Or is the plant it? I’d really like if she didn’t just inherit Kate’s social life along with the suit. And speaking of, I really hope they don’t break up Julia and Sophie. They’re a good couple and now that Kate’s gone they have even less reason to break up.As far as the good stuff however, I do quite like Javicia Leslie in the role. She in the first minute as Ryan had more charisma and acting ability then Ruby Rose had all of last season. And I didn’t dislike Ruby as Kate, but she was just adequate at best. Could do with less of that speechifying though, there are better ways to do that then “LET’S BRING THIS UP!!!!”On the second good thing, they justified Alice’s continued existence. She got Ryan’s mom killed and she’s going to war with Safiyah, great! Now just don’t overuse her and shove her into the plot of every episode like last season.Overall I have hope for this season, and I just hope that that hope isn’t misplaced.P.S. I feel like how they killed off Kate was a “have your cake and eat it too” kind of thing where they can point to it and say “Haha, see! We didn’t kill her, there was never a body! Don’t get mad at us again!” however it also has a “But if we never do anything further with this, there’ll always be the implication that she is dead but it’ll be unconfirmed.”
I really hope they go a ‘less is more’ approach with Alice this season.
I thought that the fake Bruce Wayne would hang on a bit longer. Thank goodness that arc was stopped dead in it’s tracks. Can we somehow lose Alice the same way?
I am kind of glad the Bruce Wayne didn’t drag on because those plotlines can be kind of painful (that person isn’t really that person but conveniently no one sees it for weeks on end).Personally, I’d like to keep Alice around (Rachel Skarsten is amazing) but don’t make her the center of every episode like they did for way too much of first season.
I imagine that it would have hung on a lot longer if Ruby Rose hadn’t left the show. Dealing with “her cousin” Bruce, whose costume she’s kinda stolen, that very much has the feel of a long-term story arc, but without that personal connection towards Bruce via the title character, it just feels anemic….also, yes, agreed, wasn’t a fan of that potential plot arc >_<.
I get that it’s not that exciting to pair her up with the rest of the Bat Team, but wouldn’t the alternative be to have the Bat Team keep looking for Kate? Or actively working against Ryan? I think the way they did it- confusion, sort of anger, then quick resolution and getting on board with it, was the best they could do. Kinda just need to move on from the unexpected casting change and hit the ground running. Plus, at the end of the ep she’s not even Batwoman, so there’s still some developing to do. At least they didn’t make her a total badass in the suit from the get go.
The ideal situation would be the Batteam trying to track her down and try to find out who she is with her dodging them for a while because she doesn’t know them. Like she unmasked in front of Mary & Luke without knowing who they were just to make she statistics speech, which was incredibly dumb of her.And anyway once the two groups have finally properly met each other they can be forced to work together to battle some threat and that’s how their alliance starts. As it stands they’re probably going to be teamed up by episode 3.
I don’t think she was stupid to unmask. It was a variation of the classic moment from JLU, all they would say on seeing her was, “I have no idea who this is.” She has no one who would be endangered, no home they could find her at, no reason to hide her face. If anything, they were the stupid ones because the person in the suit could easily have turned on them to keep the suit and their secret.
Well she’d still be in danger, and they immediately found out who she was so tracking her down wouldn’t have been that hard.
>Could do with less of that speechifying though, there are better ways to do that then “LET’S BRING THIS UP!!!!It’s understandable that this episode had Pilot Syndrome, but I was hoping that the writers would take a minute, realize that they were overcompensating for the character swap, and rein it in a little.
They did not.The statistics/number speech was… wow. Just, wow. It wins multiple awards: one for substance, and one for timing. Even after I’d recovered from how shockingly bad the substance was, I kept thinking of Norm MacDonald in the West Side Story SNL skit. “Hey I got another song for ya; it’s called ‘while you were busy singing I got stabbed in the head by a Puerto Rican.’”It feels like an incredibly surreal step backwards for the genre to have heroes (or antiheroes, whatever) making arch speeches apropos of nothing, and not suffering any consequences for doing so. How do you even let a villain do that without some kind of lampshade or subversion post-Incredibles, never mind a protagonist who’s ostensibly on her way to kill a motherfucker?It was a pretty bad beat for Fox and Mary, too. It turned them from legitimate characters into a dumb, passive audience proxy for the writers to spew bullshit at.Worst of all: it was totally unnecessary. The rest of the episode did a serviceable job showing us (and, yes, even telling us, though in a more appropriate setting at least: the parole office) all of this stuff about the new character.
Ryan appears to enjoy repurposing vintage Canucks jerseys into blouses?
I’m so glad they kept Rachel Skarsten on. I don’t care if she plays Alice or alternate universe Alice or Queen Elizabeth, I just like having her around.
If they had really wanted to have fun with the multiverse, they should have cast her in Green Arrow and the Canaries as one of the Canaries.
That would have been great! Now I’m even more sad that show didn’t make it to series.
I’ve been reading comics and watching schlock television too long to buy that Kate’s dead without seeing a body (or like, you know, having a scene where her dad identifies the body at the morgue but you can’t see the face because they don’t want to pay Ruby Rose to show up). I mean, I know she’s not coming back to the role, I’m just curious as to whether they’re going to have her pop up in a crossover or have her make an appearance to “officially” pass the torch. Or maybe we will get a body so we can get another montage of everyone being sad she’s dead. But until I get confirmation, I’m assuming we’re waiting for a classic corny midseason reveal that she’s not dead.
Crossover got canceled. https://www.google.com/amp/s/io9.gizmodo.com/the-cws-batwoman-superman-lois-crossover-scrapped-ove-1846030300/amp
I didn’t necessarily mean a crossover this season, I just meant in a future crossover to be named later.
I’m in agreement. No body, not officially dead. But regardless, they’ve efficiently moved on and that’s for the best.
Hell, even with a body, Bat canon sometimes waves the magic wand with a convenient Lazarus Pit.
Didn’t Thea Queen destroy them all?
Ah, but you’re forgetting about the one she missed.Which one, you ask? The one the writers will make up if they decide they want to go that route.
Not to mention the fact that the reset of the Multiverse easily could justify another one still existing.
But who knows if Oliver decided to bring them back when he remade the universe.
If Ruby Rose ever wanted to come back, they could have her show up for a few episodes and then disappear again. I imagine it’s why they didn’t recast the character.
Comic book rules: No body no death. A proclamation that someone is dead, is useless.
Forget comics, this goes back to detective fiction like Sherlock Holmes and Agatha Christie.If X is presumed dead but there’s no body, then X is not dead.If X is presumed dead and there’s a body but their face is not identifiable and X is identified by their clothes, ID, etc, then the body is not X and X is still alive.
This is the Arrowverse, even if you see the body, the character isn’t necessarily dead. Just look at Sara Lance.
Or Lex Luthor or Damien Dhark or Oliver Queen kinda. Yeah death’s not as big a revolving door as it is in comics, but the Arrowverse definitely does have a fair number of resurrections.
Since Kate appearing again depends on whether Ruby Rose wants to put in a guest appearance, they’re clearly trying to keep their options open. The story and the characters can carry on as though Kate is dead, without confirming it in case it becomes possible to bring the actor back later.
Yeah it seems INCREDIBLY presumptuous to just casually say Kate was “killed off.” They’re obviously leaving the door open. Not that they needed to leave her possibly alive to have Ruby Rose come back if she/they ever wanted to, what with the multiverse, etc.
Especially since, if Safiyah caused the crash, they have the plot option of her keeping Kate prisoner until a time when Ruby Rose feels like doing a guest spot.
But until I get confirmation, I’m assuming we’re waiting for a classic corny midseason reveal that she’s not dead.
She quit, dude. She’s not coming back.
If they couldn’t even convince/weren’t willing to ask Ruby Rose to record the voiceover for the letter to Sophie, I don’t see her coming back for a full guest spot in the future.
… near future, anyway. Back half of a season 3 though… ?
Who was even reading that letter in voiceover? It sounded distractingly off. I thought they should have just had Meagan Tandy (Sophie) read it, it would have been less confusing.Or just have Nicole Kang read it. Mary makes everything better.
God, it was so distractingly weird. They could have had me, a 40 year old man, read it and it wouldn’t have sounded any less like Ruby Rose. At least when Grey’s Anatomy dealt with an “oops a star quit, here’s some letters to explain where he went” they got a good enough voice match that there was some debate over whether he recorded them (he totally didn’t.)
Reading between the lines on Ruby Rose’s departure, it sounds like she may have burned the bridge down to the support beams on her way off the show. Don’t think they’ll be bringing her back ever.
Maybe not, but I still say if there’s no chance of bringing her back, then they would’ve definitively killed the character rather than explicitly stated that diving teams can’t find the body. Or maybe even though Rose is done, they’ll recast Kate for some sort of cameo later.
True, I could see someone else as Kate showing up sometime down the road, like whoever they used to voiceover that letter, but I think Ruby Rose and this show are very very done with each other.
The whole time I was watching I was thinking how I’d 100% see this as set up that ends with her being alive if not for the fact that we know Ruby Rose quit the show. Maybe they’re leaving the door open in case she ever changes her mind.
Kara saved her and flew them off to a remote island to live out their days which is why Supergirl isn’t going to be in any crossovers.
Nah, there is zero chance. She quit and caused them all kinds of headaches. A years worth of promotions, putting the character in crossovers, a whole storyline is all trashed. There is no body because they would have to have her back to have a body. The CW is not going to go through the expense of CGI-ing one. As someone else said, this is a MASH “Col. Henry Blake crashed into the sea of Japan..there were no survivors” thing.
As someone else said, yes, usually no body = maybe not dead. But in this circumstance? Yeah, she is dead. She quit. She is not coming back. And quitting after year one with a ton of promotion wasted and having to recast the lead? I do not think the show would want her back either, even if she begged them, and she won’t.
Some thoughts:Wow, the Kryptonite, the fake Bruce, the identity? They wrapped up basically every plot thread from last season in one fell swoop, huh?I know it’s the CW so budget restrictions are a thing, but wow that Batmobile sucked.If Alfred is living in London… like, has no one been at Wayne Manor for 4 years now? I’d normally ask how Alice just walked in, but apparently anybody could’ve done it all this time, frankly I’m more curious how Tommy got the mountain of dust off everything in time for Alice to break in.So in Ryan’s newspaper scene, I guess we’re still all pretending that Kate was running a super-successful real estate company and donating money to charities off-screen this whole time? Sure, okay show, whatever… *rolls eyes*I know Batman’s whole thing is secrets and trust issues but come on Luke, how did you not know where the damn car was?
Not only that, how did the Batmobile stay in the sealed, likely damp, cave all this time and is still working perfectly. Does it not use gasoline?
Wow, the Kryptonite, the fake Bruce, the identity? They wrapped up basically every plot thread from last season in one fell swoop, huh?That is the most comic book thing of the whole show: New character? Let’s completely clear the board in as rushed and clumsy a method as possible!
The most comic book thing would’ve been to do all that, then wrap the episode in a polybagged lenticular 3D chromium and call it Episode #0.
Alfred is running the Roomba from his smartphone overseas.
“I guess we’re still all pretending that Kate was running a super-successful real estate company and donating money to charities off-screen this whole time? Sure, okay show, whatever… *rolls eyes*”Kate started using Bruce’s wealth to help people early last season. Given the “one season = one year” rule of most TV shows, it’s believable that in the weeks between episodes she was doing this type of business work. It would require much less effort than all her Batwoman activities.Her primary business goal that we saw *was* to open up the gay-friendly bar, not a typical Wayne Enterprises business deal.
“It would require much less effort than all her Batwoman activities”Honestly, I’m not so sure. We knew from episode 1 that Kate’s been training in all sorts of crazy junk trying to get into the Crows and find out in flashbacks that she was near the top of her class at not-West Point. She’s a trained fighter. Meanwhile she knows nothing about starting (or running) a business, or real estate. And she doesn’t have an Alfred or Lucius Fox to help her while she sleeps off her Bat-injuries (well, she has Luke, but he never really seems to do anything that’s not related to Bat-stuff).But yeah, whatever, anything can happen offscreen.
I mean, how hard is it to take some money from an account full of money and buy a bar, or purchase land? There are people or organizations you can call and say “I have money, I want to help out poor or gay people with public housing, financial support, etc” and easily have lots of people willing to take your money and do the actual work.
As a Batman fan, losing out on the Hush/fake Bruce Wayne story arc is disappointing, but alas. I enjoyed the premiere overall, although they handled the Kate mystery differently than I thought they would—I had expected it to be more like Luke during Episode VII, with her just vanishing, instead of presumed dead. I also was expecting a harder/more adversarial edge to Ryan, but the actress is good. Alice remains the best part of the show, and I don’t anticipate that changing.
The quick end of the Hush/fake Bruce thing was, to me, the BEST part of this circumstance. I was really not looking forward to everyone not realizing that this wasn’t Bruce, and having it drag on for like 10 episodes. The “no one realizes this person is the bad guy in disguise” is maybe my least favorite narrative trope, and this show alone did SO much of that in the first season, it was very tiresome. And it was just already very furstrating how Luke didn’t have any suspicion at all and Julia was really the only one who suspected anything.
Still, didn’t really need to see a bloody, peeled-off face at the end there. eewwww.
As a Batman fan, losing out on the Hush/fake Bruce Wayne story arc is disappointing
I don’t trust CW to do Hush properly. Shit, I didn’t even really like the DC animated Hush that much.
No, nor did I. Which is partly why I was hoping for this version to be better–more shots at the apple, more chances to get a good story, you know?
No, nor did I. Which is partly why I was hoping for this version to be better
If you don’t think CW would do it properly, why would you expect this version to be better? Batwoman is on CW.
more shots at the apple, more chances to get a good story, you know?
No. Just get it right the first time.
Hell, the original Hush comic story itself wasn’t very good. It was mostly an excuse for some nice Jim Lee pin-up art of the Bat-Villains.
Hell, the original Hush comic story itself wasn’t very good.
I liked the original Hush. Enjoyable. Not great, definitely doesn’t stand next to The Long Halloween or Year One. But I never read the Hush sequels.
The Paul Dini one might be the best story Tommy features in.
The Paul Dini one might be the best story Tommy features in.
Hmm, maybe I should check out his Streets of Gotham series then.
I loved that Alice’s plan to have her father murder her twin sister was so twisted and insane that it even freaked out Tommy & when he ratted her out to her dad he begged him not to tell her it was him, since he didn’t want to get on her bad side Possibly Jacob should not have let Alice just take his gun out of his hands and walk away, she has already framed him for murder at least once Mary dispensing hugs and wisdom and looking smoking hot while doing so is reason enough to keep the show going
Yeah, Alice’s plan was legit good for a crazy-pants revenge plot on a CW comic book show.
It had everything: twists, pathos, overcomplicatedness, comic book style villainy, complete insanity. It was so her
It was also the writers’ chance to lay out everything that (maybe) would have happened in the end of last season or the beginning of this season if it hadn’t gotten cut short and if Rose hadn’t left. In an idealized version laid out by Alice, you can make a plotline like that sound really good.
Mary and Luke were the main reasons to watch the show before, and they continue to be now.
I loved that even in the middle of a family crisis and possible death of her sister, Mary’s clothes were fabulous.
Kate would not want Mary to let herself go
I kind of have a feeling that this was how the original season finale was supposed to be. Before COVID put an early stop to things and Ruby took off. Like maybe that was going to be the real cliffhanger. Just a gut feeling really.
The pop songs in CW shows are almost always awful. Ruined a number of the major scenes in the back half of the episode. Not helped by their usual poor sound mixing leading to the lyrics of the song and the dialogue of the characters competing against each other. They have a trained composer, use them. Neely can create some decent enough music, as pieces like “The Climb” or “Harnessing Anger” prove. Hell, even no music would have been okay for some of the scenes, such as when Elliot thinks Wilder is dead.
I know its CW we’re talking about here so there is little point in talking about how amateurish these shows often are. But its amazing how even the simplest of choices could help make these shows so much better in numerous small but ultimately substantive ways.
Still shipping Luke & Mary, Sophie & Julia, and Alice & insanityAlso I have not forgotten that Jacob is running a corrupt, fascist, racist paramilitary organization, so I have limited sympathy for him & am on Alice’s side in their scenes
And now is just a great time to sympathize with someone running a fascist para-military organization.
As good as the actor is, I hate to say this, they should probably kill his character off
He seems a character that wouldn’t last long even without the shuffling.
He honestly has no real place in the show anymore. May as well blow up the Crows this season and bring in Commissioner Ellen Yen or somebody.
It’s probably more likely that Sophie takes over and the organization has a pointless rebranding like what happened with the DEO.
I don’t like it, but this seems really likely.
They should definitely kill him off.Bonus points if it’s at the hands of his own corrupt fascist paramilitary organization.
It almost happened once already.
For a moment there I misparsed that and thought you were shipping “Luke” with “Mary, Sophie & Julia”…
I love Luke but I think Mary is more than enough for him
I was glad Ryan mentioned corrupt agents in her rant to Mary and Luke. Hopefully that’s a plot thread they’ll follow up on.
That’s one advantage of having Kate gone that I didn’t think about. She did all the training that allowed her to be Batwoman because she wanted to be a part of that fascist, racist, paramilitary organization. That is really not a good look for a hero.
Also I have not forgotten that Jacob is running a corrupt, fascist, racist paramilitary organization, so I have limited sympathy for him & am on Alice’s side in their scenesMy issue is that we have seen little evidence of the Crows being corrupt. In fact, the biggest evidence of Crow corruption was the mole Alice had in the organization. Even then, Alice is still a terrorist killing people who have done nothing to her. Remember that elderly couple she murdered just because they bought her childhood home after her family had moved out?
Yay, we’re back! So great seeing people again – hope y’all are well during all the madness.Ryan’s pretty fun so far. I’m still not sure how they can restructure the entire show, given how much it was built around Kate, but I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt.Is is there anyone on this show who doesn’t have a dead family member as a motivation?Hey, maybe without Kate around to pine after, Sophie might not be The Worst anymore!Glad Julia figured out Bruce wasn’t himself so fast; and that Alice told Jacob the truth about Kate being Batwoman. (Though I’ll admit I’m having a hard time keeping track of who knows – it’s not quite as bad as Supergirl, but it’s getting there.)
Aaaaaaand Mary continues to be The Best. In all possible ways. Never change Mary.
Sophie and Julia didn’t. I guess that’s changed now.
But Julia must’ve – wasn’t she brought into the Batcave? Also, didn’t she help with the shenanigans to put Sophie off the scent by dressing up as Batwoman?
Have a dead family member.
I mean, I assume Julia does because we never see or hear about her mother, but I could be wrong.
Well if she is she doesn’t seem to be a motivator.
I forgot that Sophie didn’t know that Kate was Batwoman, which was kind of ridiculous but I guess Julia did help with that deception, which is another issue for Sophie & Julia I also think Sophie could benefit from this new iteration of the show
At this point, all the regulars know Kate was Batwoman.
I am SO glad the Tommy-as-Bruce thing lasted all of 40 minutes. I’m glad it wasn’t like a half-season arc. Maybe a silver lining to Ruby Rose leaving is that they had to change up that plot line real quick. Kinda gruesome to literally beat the face off him though.
I feel bad for the Meagan Tandy, Sophie definitely got the classic “CW love interest” treatment, where the character is sucked dry of personality for fear that any personality quirk will make them “unlikeable,” purposefully kept in the dark and therefore excluded from doing anything interesting, and made to forlornly moon over the protagonist which makes them no fun. Here’s hoping she get to have some better writing.
Ideally since Kate is gone she could have the chance to actually develop into her own character and develop her relationship with Julia. But my fear is that they’re just going to pair her up with Ryan.
I am confident that Sophie will find some new and innovative way of being The Worst.
All I wanted going into this was for Mary to continue being central and being the best, so I am happy and have high hopes going forward. I’m sure she’ll be the one to convince Ryan to stay, and she’ll cure her kryptonite poisoning. Because she’s the best.
Is is there anyone on this show who doesn’t have a dead family member as a motivation?It’s a Batfamily show. Dead parents kind of come with the territory.
I realized something about this show after this ep. I really did like Ruby Rose as Batwoman, and found her fine as Kate Kane. But just seeing how all the other characters interacted without Kate, i just mentally assembled the scorecard of scene partners:Season 1:
Kate + her dad= Bleah
Kate + Alice= started interesting, now also tired
Kate+ Sophie= very tired, though not all on Kate
Kate + Luke= Always enjoyable
Kate + Mary = delightfulThen in this ep:
Mary + depressed Luke = still fun!
Alice + Dad = satisfying closure
Sophie + Julie = sad but also a little spicy.
Ryan + Mary + Luke = not annoying, even a little promising.
Alice + Tommy/Bruce = Thank god that’s over
Alice + Mouse = the best its ever been.I can’t really blame Ruby Rose, but the writing of Kate with the other characters was always either a total downer, or completely cheesy. Now that they don’t have to deal with her weird relationships with every character, everyone is more free to be their own characters, not just people Kate relates to. Seems like there’s a lot more interesting ways to go.Also, really, I am just SO glad we didn’t get half a season or more of pretend-Bruce-Wayne somehow fooling everybody. Punch that stupid face off!
The show was pretty aggressively lead-driven in its first season. Not necessarily a bad thing, but even more so than Arrow (imo, the second most lead-driven show in Arrowverse) every relationship, every villain, every character pretty much existed in the context of Kate.I do agree it’s going to help the show to let everything grow beyond that. Especially characters like Sophie who desperately need more definition.
“Yay, we’re back! So great seeing people again – hope y’all are well during all the madness.”Not trying to curtail your happiness, but it sounds like they’re still not doing regular reviews. We probably won’t see another one for this show until the mid-season finale.
Sadly that does look to be the case. 🙁
Everyone was pretty fast and loose with the ‘secret’ indentities. Name dropping Kara Danvers (so Luke assumes Bruce knows? Didn’t Kara start after he disappeared? Then again she mentioned her cousin scary friend in Gotham.🤷🏽♂️ As for Uncle Jacob, Tommy reveal aside, guess if and when the real Bruce even gets back should make for some interesting dinner convo!
In-universe, Batman disappeared 3 years before Elseworlds. That would put it around the time of Supergirl Season 1, and Kara was around for a decade before that, growing up with the Danvers. If Arrowverse!Batman is as good a detective as most other versions, then he likely knew about Kara, assuming that Clark didn’t mention her anytime they spoke to each other.
Thank you. Guess I’m still figuring out who know what when. LOL
Actually, you might still be figuring it out. I forgot to take Crisis into consideration. The whole “Batman disappeared X years ago” is for the Batman in Arrow and Flash. Pre-Crisis Supergirl had their own Batman who was still active up until Crisis. Presumably, they both merged into one being, but we haven’t gotten confirmation on that one way or the other.
But Crisis reset everything.
Wow a B+?I guess for now I’m gonna go by, if you don’t have anything nice to say…
When accounting for avclub being afraid to grade any series too low that addresses sexual orientation, racism or female empowerment, then one will deduce that Batwoman is about a C+ at best.
I think we all know why that is
I really hope they can pull back on the sister thing now that Kate is gone (even if not forever), much as I loved Ruby Rose the tension between those two was getting tedious, IMO. Tension that overstays its welcome starts to illicit either exasperation or comedy and the Kate Alice thing was getting old very fast, IMO. Hopefully, the new Batwoman will not put up with Alice’s horsecrap and be able to be more decisive in acting to stop her psychopathic schemes. Surely, as is dictated by comic rule Alice will still carry on but seeing the points of tension between Alice and Batwoman shift will be a welcome breath of fresh air.
bury your gays but they don’t want the fanbase revolting so they pretend there’s a chance they didn’t bury a gay.
Eh, I don’t really think that’s fair. They had to do something to get Kate off-screen due to extenuating circumstances, and they left it pretty ambiguous so that Kate can show up again in case Ruby Rose wants to come back. To say nothing of the fact that Sophie and Julia are both still around, and that the producers specifically sought out an LGBT actor to play Ryan.
This trope is the presentation of deaths of LGBT characters where these characters are nominally able to be viewed as more expendable than their heterosexual counterparts.
Per TV Tropes. And I would argue that’s not really what happened here.
Every case of Bury Your Gays has straight people arguing that it’s not fair to count this dead gay/lesbian as an instance of the trope.This trope is the presentation of deaths of LGBT characters where these characters are nominally able to be viewed as more expendable than their heterosexual counterparts.
Per TV Tropes. And I would argue that’s not really what happened here.This is exactly what happened here. We know because this is the fifth solo title in the Arrowverse, and it is the only one that has replaced its lead after one season. The others got 8, 6, 4, and 7+. Even on Legends, which as an ensemble show would presumably have the most expendable series leads of all, Garber/Martin and Routh/Ray spent longer atop the callsheet (but hey, Lotz/Sara will presumably pass Rose/Kate this season).
None of the other shows had their lead ask to leave after one season. What are you expecting the showrunners to do, not let her leave?
Recast? Have her character leave on her own through some convoluted reasoning? Recast? Have her always conveniently offscreen when not in costume and rehash all her dialogue from earlier episodes like when they replaced three rangers on Power Rangers? Recast?
Well that would fall under the kidnap your gays trope! And we can’t have that!
Introducing the New Trope: Enslave your Gays!
“We know because this is the fifth solo title in the Arrowverse, and it is the only one that has replaced its lead after one season.”Hmm, why would a show choose to replace its lead? Yep, must be because they are gay. No way it could have anything to do with the actress choosing to QUIT.
But Ruby Rose quit? This is very much not a case of the showrunners deciding to kill a character to heighten drama or cause anguish for other characters; it was a case of a lead actor quitting, there being hard feelings on both sides, and the writers deciding that the most expedient way of dealing with losing their star would be to have the character die off screen between seasons. It’s super, super common for characters (including main characters) to be written out of shows this way when the actor’s departure is less than amicable.
Off the top of my head I know at least 2 mains getting killed off when the actor leaves the show. Charlie Sheen in 2 and a half men and Valerie Harper in “Valerie” in which the show had to be changed to “The Hogan Family”
Technically “Valerie” was renamed to “Valerie’s Family” for 1 (?) season because they didn’t want viewers to think it was a different show. But yes, eventually they renamed it “The Hogan Family”.
You say that as if it was CW’s decision to dump Ruby Rose. Ruby left on her own accord.
I’m a queer woman and I don’t think this falls into the Bury your gays category because Ruby Rose left the show. Without more information on why exactly she left (did she get pushed out of the show? Were things really awful behind the scenes for her that she was just unable to continue?) The fact that they did not recast Kate Kane also leaves the possibility for Ruby Rose to come back at some point if she wants. If they didn’t kill her, what other explanation would they have for Kate’s disappearance? She got tired of being Batwoman and just left like Bruce? Which is something the character established on this show would not do seeing as she just came back to town in the beginning of the series. If you take it out of context then yes, they are technically burying a gay character. If you include the context of Ruby Rose wanting off the show plus they cast a queer woman as Batwoman, it doesn’t really hold.
This is exactly what happened here. We know because this is the fifth solo title in the Arrowverse, and it is the only one that has replaced its lead after one season. The others got 8, 6, 4, and 7+. Even on Legends, which as an ensemble show would presumably have the most expendable series leads of all, Garber/Martin and Routh/Ray spent longer atop the callsheet (but hey, Lotz/Sara will presumably pass Rose/Kate this season).
Ruby Rose quit. They didn’t get rid of her. She fucking quit.
You’re sooooo stupid.
People like you are literally cancer
Pretty much yeah, if Kate being killed off hadn’t been leaked all those months ago she would probably be fully dead instead of maybe dead.
Alright, a new season of Batwoman means we have new reasons to
love Mary. We all need a Mary when times get rough; look at how good she
is at calming Luke and Jacob down! However, who is there for Mary when times get tough??? *insert crying face.*
I think what makes Mary so awesome as a character (and to my mind, the breakout character of the show) is that they’ve intentionally bypassed many of the traditional negative qualities given to supporting characters. Where the writers will make them obtuse, irrational, selfish, incompetent, or just generally helpless because it’s a cheap and easy way to create drama. And Mary is none of those things.She figured out Kate was Batwoman. And then came out to Kate about knowing the truth and did so in a way that emphasized how she looks up to Kate and that she’s someone who can be trusted.She hates Alice for her mother’s death, but she didn’t let that get in the way of helping out when AU Beth showed up.She shows up to Lucious Fox’s murder’s hearing because she knows that Luke needs to support but might not know how to ask.(Just to name a few examples.)
Pretty much she’s competent, thoughtful, kind, emotionally generous, level-headed, intelligent and badass (in ways that don’t have anything to do with physical prowess). I’m even starting to think that she might be a Leslie Knope or a Tami Taylor: the kind of person we’d all be so lucky to have in our lives.
It’s such a radical, weird approach to character-writing: intentionally writing a character who is competent and likeable, instead of someone who’s useless and irritating.The other weird thing is that whenever writers do this, they end up with a fan favourite character, and yet they never seem to learn this lesson. [it’s similar to the way fans respond ecstatically to any even conceivable relationship that seems like it might be honest, supportive, organic and specific, yet insist on only writing romance arcs that are deceitful, narcissistic, hostile, generic and bolted-on…]
it’s similar to the way fans respond ecstatically to any even conceivable relationship that seems like it might be honest, supportive, organic and specific, yet insist on only writing romance arcs that are deceitful, narcissistic, hostile, generic and bolted-on… Because too many writers and fans stubbornly believe that healthy, normal relationships are boring and ones that are the opposite are good for drama.
Yes, just as they believe that characters who are obnoxious idiots will be seen as ‘adorably quirky’ and generate plausible and interesting drama.In both respects, writers are (mostly) wrong.
What weird/dumb/wrong opinion
I also like that they will use things like her competency with social media as an asset, instead of making fun of her for it.
Mary, Thea, Sarah, younger sisters in the Arrowverse really do seem to get the best writing. I think Kara is also a younger sister, but because she’s the lead I don’t think she counts.
Frankly, it’s a shame they couldn’t have killed them all off and just rebooted the damn show. Alice remains one of the most annoying characters ever created for television, Tommy Elliott has always been a bore, and Kate’s various family members would have to be three times as interesting to be even one-dimensional.The one saving grace here is that Leslie, unlike Rose, actually seems to be able to act, so that’s a new wrinkle in the program.
I watched every episode of Season 1 and I feel burnt that the lead character is changing, so I’m not going to bother watching anymore. Season 1 spent all it’s time developing Kate and her relationships with the cast, especially “Alice” her estranged and twisted sister. I am kind of pissed that all that will now have been a waste a time. I read the comics extensively and KATE KANE is the version of Batwoman promised with this show, and although DC is introducing this new character into the comics now, this isn’t what I signed up for when I was initially really excited about Season 1. It’s not the shows fault their lead completely ditched them, but I’m not sticking around to find out how a show called Batwoman exists without the Batwoman I have grown to love from the comic book or from season 1. tl/dr – fuck this
I wanted to add that it also feels like a slap in the face to Kate Kane to have her killed off screen as a victim of a random plane crash, instead of dying heroically saving people like a Superhero. It’s just so incredibly lame, and this entire show just feels like a “bait-and-switch” now.
They wanted to get rid of Kate but leave her death “ambiguous” so that if Rose wanted to return for a guest-shot in the future that would be doable. So having her “dying heroically saving people” would not work.Plus they wanted to continue the Safiyah plot that was set up at the end of last season, so having them be responsible for Kate’s “death” makes sense and gives stakes to them and their war with Gotham/Alice.
1) Kate can die heroically and it can still be ambiguous, it’s not a binary choice. It’s not uncommon for a character to “die” heroically only to be brought back later. As it stands, the superhero that we followed all season long just died offscreen in a plane crash. That’s not just lazy writing, it’s insulting to the viewers.2) It’s a moot point if the show gets cancelled before Kate can come back. Which it most likely will. Also, Ruby Rose is very unlikely to return, so why not just recast her?
They didn’t have access to Rose, so however she died it had to be offscreen. It’s easier to have a plane crash or something like that offscreen than stage a big action setpiece where Batwoman (who would not be able to speak) dies heroically. Plus it says something that her death isn’t a noble sacrifice – it’s a pretty meaningless death, like Tasha Yar in season 1 of TNG.The show decided not to recast the role. Personally, I think they should have, but for whatever reason, they decided to create a new character.As far as Rose coming back, the reason she gave for leaving the show is that it was too much work and effort to do the physical aspects of the role day after day. Maybe a few months from now, if they say “Do you want to come back for 2 episodes?” she might say “I can handle that.” Who knows? But even if that never happens, the show wants to leave it as if it could.(of course I haven’t watched yesterday’s episode yet, so this may all be moot)
I’ve been reading Kate Kane in comic books for the last 15 years. I was very excited about seeing her brought to life in a CW adaptation staring her character. I spent 20 episodes, and as many hours of my life, getting to know this version of her and investing in her relationships with the extended cast of characters. Then the new season starts with a brief report that she was killed in a plane crash and now we have a brand-new-never-before-heard-of character as the lead. Call it a bait-and-switch, call it lazy writing, call it whatever you want, but I’m not the only weekly viewer who has dropped off because of it. You’re sitting here twisting yourself into knots trying to defend it, comparing the central character of a Super Hero show’s random death to Tasha Yar, the 5th actor on the call sheet for season 1 of Star Trek TNG? I kinda think I made my point. If you are still enjoying the show now, more power to you. JokersNuts out.
I’m glad that you are a fan of Kate Kane in the comics before this show started. But you are in the minority. Kate Kane is not a character that the general audience knows about, not like Bruce Wayne.The actress chose to leave the show. It’s her fault, not the show’s fault. Based on everything she’s said about leaving, it doesn’t seem to be anyone else doing something to her or treating her badly – she just felt overwhelmed by the physicality of the role and didn’t want to do it anymore.Why the show decided to create a new character instead of recasting the role, who knows? Besides James Bond, there’s not a long list of great examples of recasting a leading role where the audience accepts it. More often than not, the audience does not accept it.“I’m not the only weekly viewer who has dropped off because of it” Fine, I don’t care. Who’s stopping you?“You’re sitting here twisting yourself into knots trying to defend it” This is me “twisting myself into knots”? Really? I’m barely expending any effort here, so consider myself untwisted.
Overall, I enjoyed this. I’m extra happy that Tommy literally got his face beaten off in episode 1, and I am intrigued to see if they Smallville their way into some metahuman powers for Ryan with her kryptonite infection. I’m not sure knowing enough martial arts to run a dojo is all the training you need to be Batwoman, but maybe?The big challenge this show now has is how to have everyone care enough to keep looking for Kate, yet not have Ryan feel like a placeholder. Can Ryan ever really be Batwoman to the audience while everyone important in the show still thinks Kate might come back? I think they’re going to have a big sad “we found the body” episode at some point and then have everyone need to buck up and face something really bad right after burying Kate to kind of thrust Ryan into that hero role. Otherwise, how is she ever going to be more than just someone keeping the suit warm?
It’s just too weird throwing away Batwoman’s family dynamic to have a random person find the suit and put it on. I could have tolerated a Kate Kane recasting, but completely invalidating the first season killed my enthusiasm for this show.
“Batwoman Kate Kane’s plane was shot down over the Sea of Japan. It spun in. There were no survivors.”
Dammit I was gonna do it
No one cares. Fucking loser
I am Kate Kane’s twin sister landfill. I so loved her I was hoping you would just forget I am her sister and just start calling me Kate and pretend I am her from now on like she never left.Okay..um, Kate! You are soo much better than the old Kate!
Hey, they did it with Fat Tony on the Simpsons.
I hope the new Batwoman proves to be Harry Morgan.
So…Ryan’s birth mom is either Poison Ivy or connected to Poison Ivy? Her surviving the kryptonite was def metahuman power.
– God, that Batmobile was terrible. I get it’s a CW show and all, but still.
– I get they couldn’t film any new scenes with Ruby Rose, but man, that opening scene felt extremely petty.
– Sad that the Tommy-as-Bruce plot was immediately junked. They could have had Not!Bruce be a more public figure and get the public on his side, forming a sort of cold war between him and the Bat-Crew. Then again, Tommy really, really sucked at pretending to be Bruce Wayne so I dunno how well that plot would’ve been pulled off anyway.- How exactly did Kate’s suit fit Ryan? Ryan’s a bit, er, “fuller” than Kate is.
– God, that speech in the subway tunnel was so cheesy.
– Much has been made that Ryan isn’t from a wealthy family. So, how are the crew funding this operation? Luke obviously has no real connection to the Wayne fortune, and I doubt Mary does either. I mean, it was already a bit odd since WayneTech apparently doesn’t exist anymore, but now it feels even odder.- Probably due to it not being the real Bruce, but I feel like everyone’s reactions to Bruce Wayne coming back were WAY understated.
– Wow, that Kryptonite bullet thing was a waste of time. I’m guessing they’re foreshadowing that Ryan is a meta. Gonna wait until the actual plot happens before I judge that, but I don’t have high hopes for it.
The character exposition was on the blunt speechifying side, but that’s to be expected with the Arrowverse, and overall I think they did about as good a job as I could hope for in introducing Ryan while repurposing or closing off dangling plot threads (I actually really like Tommy’s plot immediately getting shut down like this, just absolutely punking on his self-important ass).
The question isn’t if the show can go on, it is whether it should. With the CW cancelling most of its old arrowverse shows (except the Flash which still gets like twice the ratings of the other shows) it is actually kind of inexplicable they brought this back after losing the lead. It was not exactly well reviewed. They seem to be starting the next generation with Stargirl and Lois and Superman and developing new shows, while cancelling Black Lightening, Supergirl and announcing the Green Arrow spin off is dead, so why this is trying to be saved is interesting. I already thought the concept of “Bawoman” was already stretching things as Batman is so tied to Bruce Wayne and who he is. So now you have a copy of a copy, like new drummers from Spinal Tap. I think most superheroes are tied to a persona in people’s minds as one informs the other. There is no batman without Bruce Wayne, because someone else being batman just is not compelling. His parents being murdered, being rich, being who he is is what makes “him” batman. Anyone else who does it is just a vigilante in a mask. Tony Stark is Iron Man. You can dress other actors up in metal suits, but it is Tony Stark being Iron Man that people watch. These type of heroes are not just a mask and a utility belt. I know comic books have tried to put new people into suits, but it really has never been compelling.
“There is no batman without Bruce Wayne, because someone else being batman just is not compelling”
Yep, I stated the comics do it all the time..but live action is different.
Also, the Grant Morrison run with Dick Grayson as Batman to Damian Wayne’s Robin was pretyy dang compelling.
In fairness, old Bruce was more a compelling character than Terry.
Oh, they cancelled the Canaries show? That’s… sad, but probably for the best.
Sad because I thought Mia had potential as a lead, Older Wiser Black
Siren seemed like she could be an interesting character, and setting one
of these shows in the future opens some possibilities that aren’t as
easily available otherwise.
But probably for the best because late-seasons Arrow wasn’t very good, and the future they set up wasn’t very interesting. So although it had potential, it probably wouldn’t have been realised.I also didn’t realise Supergirl was cancelled, though I expected it would be. Fair enough, it had an adequate run, makes sense that they want to go a different angle with Superman/Lois instead.Surprised by Black Lightning being cancelled, but not disappointed. I dutifully gave it the first season, but it was just boring, and what I saw of the second didn’t seem an improvement. It seemed as though, on the one hand, they were going an intentionally slower, more grounded route that lost a lot of the cheap fun of the other shows… but at the same time, they didn’t really have anything to say beyond platitudes and soap opera plotting. You can go pulp, or you can go prestige, but if you try to go half-and-half from the start you’re likely to end up in a quagmire that’s neither fun nor moving, and I felt that that was where Black Lightning unfortunately ended up.Arrowverse not in a great situation, then. I wonder if they’ll run it down now, or if they’re gearing up more ideas for a second generation of shows?
Yeah, you pretty much nailed my thoughts too. Black Lightening was boring and I think you nailed the reason, Green Arrow was played out and proved my point above. If the main character’s plots are played out, how is a spinoff going to be good? Supergirl was surprising to me, since it gets the same ratings as batwoman and has been on a while, so why cancel that show and not this one, who lost their lead? Kind of why I am shocked this is back compares to what you said about Black Lightening. Batwoman was hardly a critic darling or fan loved like Legends, and in the first season basically had the same ratings as season 5 Supergirl..so why try to save a dying patient? It is interesting.I hear Legends is next to be cancelled, but not until this season is ended. I think the CW is tired of “good enough for the CW” ratings and the low expectations, and you can at least get new buzz with new shows instead of just floating by on .3 ratings with old shows.
It’s rumored that Melissa Benoist didn’t want to renew her contract so that’s likely a big reason why Supergirl is ending. It didn’t seem like the cast members were actually surprised by the news of it ending.
True, other than the money of course, I could see her wanting out while she is still young enough to get the next big thing. Really the only thing people have raved about on Supergirl the last few years is Jon Cryer really surprisingly killing it as Lex and Hoechin’s superman. Supergirl is hardly acritical darling either at this point
Batwoman cast & new lead = less payroll.
Financially, there’s a huge difference between renewing a season-5 show and renewing a season-1 show.On the one hand, the cost of the old show is much higher: not all shows have 5-year contracts exactly, but in general with older shows you’re having to worry about the cost of renewing contracts at a much higher level – the stars know they’re more valuable now, and they also need to be persuaded not to use their new status to get jobs elsewhere.On the other hand, many shows increase viewership over the first few seasons – problems get ironed out, and word of mouth goes out. A 1-season show with bad ratings will probably keep them, but there is a genuine possibility of turning things around. A 5-season show is not going anywhere. Unless it’s the rare, freak show that’s on a visible upward trajectory at that point because it’s become a universal cultural touchstone, you know it’s only going to get worse from here on in.
So the season 1 show has lower costs and more upside; the season 5 show is more expensive, with no upside.
Plus, in this case, they want to have a Superman show, and that’s easier if Supergirl is out of the way.
Supergirl technically ended, rather than cancelled. Melissa Benoist got sick of filming in Vancouver and declined to renew her contract.There are currently three more DC shows in development for CW. Painkiller is a spinoff from Black Lightning, while Wonder Girl and Naomi haven’t been confirmed to take place on Earth Prime yet.
Hmm. Not too exciting…I wouldn’t say that Supergirl “ended”, in that it didn’t actually come to an ending. They just stopped making it. OK, Benoist was reluctant – but that just means that the network wasn’t willing to pay enough to overcome that reluctance. Or to replace Benoist – after all, the lead star of Batwoman got sick of filming too, but they’re still making the show!
The media likes to refer to every show ending as cancelled even in the reasons why they are ending are quite different.
Black Lightning was pretty much the most consistently good Arrowverse show.
I disagree. Legends has been much funnier, much more exciting, and much more emotionally moving than Black Lightning.
“I also didn’t realise Supergirl was cancelled, though I expected it would be.”It’s coming back for one final season this year.
Oh, OK! Well, that’s probably a good idea. I’m not sure they still have anything to say, but I think it’s always good to let a series go out on its own terms, with an ending that’s actually intended as one.
I’m surprised they didn’t have her die in an explosion at an acting class, given the fact that Ruby Rose sucks.
Even if the crossover with Superman & Lois was shuttered, hopefully the show can follow up with Kara looking into Kate’s disappearance and meeting Ryan. If Kate didn’t give Luke and Mary the password for the SuperFriends Zoom things could get awkward fast.
Other than that, though, I was pleasantly surprised — the show hit the ground running, and Javicia Leslie is already demonstrating she was a good addition.
It’s too bad they didn’t get a new showrunner to go with the new Batwoman.
Kane’s persona as Batwoman was in the mold of The CW’s (Green) Arrow albeit sarcastic. Wilder’s Batwoman feels oddly cheerier despite being far less privileged to offset her tragedy. Considering her life, wouldn’t it make for a better arc to to have Wilder become less embittered the more good she does as Batwoman? The writers do acknowledge how frustrating it is to be a disadvantaged African American woman, yet Wilder having memorized statistics to extemporaneously repeat to strangers is very unnatural. Wilder runs a gamut of emotions but they haven’t gelled into a believable character yet. It feels like she’s a different character from one scene to another.
I’m glad they at least wrapped up Hush’s story quickly instead of stretching it painfully thin. Gotham punched off faces first.Kate was ostensibly fridged by Safiyah Sohail to send Alice a message. If they’re not recasting & Ruby Rose isn’t returning, I can’t think of a satisfactory way to reveal that Kate is really alive.
That’s what happens when you write characters to prove to the audience how brave and progressive you are.
Kate definitely wasn’t “fridged”. The actress quit the show, and the show had to figure out a way to get rid of the character without the actress returning to film any good-bye scenes. Kate had to die or it wouldn’t make sense. Would the Kate we saw after season 1 just leave Gotham, never to return?
I know they had to engineer a way to get Kate on a plane so you could be in a (possibly) fatal plane crash offscreen, but… Going to National City to talk to Supergirl? Supergirl… who can fly?! And also communicated with Clark through IMs for a whole year? And who also has a phone? I mean, it woulda made more sense if Luke had asked Kate to test an experimental plane he made out of dynamite than flying to go see Supergirl.
Why not just have it be that she was going to track down Safiya or something?Also, I know they couldn’t get Ruby Rose to read that letter to Sophie, but it seemed really weird to hear Sophie read the letter.
I know they had to do something about the Kate Kane conundrum, but does anybody else find it a BIT of a stretch that somebody with access to both the Wayne fortune & Bat-technology who is ALSO close personal friends with Kryptonians and speedsters is going to fly commercial? How exactly does the Batsuit get on a plane again? This just seems lazy. I realize that Kate is gone by behind the scenes necessity, but if this really is the death of her character, it’s sloppy as all hell.
I also take issue, carrying over from last season, about this whole “Kryptonite is the only thing that can pierce the Bat suit” thing. It’s weird to make Batwoman/Batman’s only weakness Superman’s only weakness, AND to treat this like it is the ultimate key to their defeat. Traditionally, the Bat family doesn’t JUST rely on technological advancements and bulletproofing. They have the SKILL to avoid getting shot. If the point of the Bat suit were complete bulletproofing, it’d be a full face cowl. So the suit is vulnerable to a wildly rare mineral that most criminals don’t even have access to…so what? And even if they did, they should theoretically have to be on Deadshot’s level to hit a Bat family member with a fatal shot with one Kryptonite bullet.
With all of that out of the way, I am looking forward to seeing how the show progresses from here. I was simply hoping for something more convincing with respect to writing Kate out of the story, and the Kryptonite bullet MacGuffin was already something I considered a misstep last season. On the postitive side, I am interested in Ryan’s character, especially given the choice to invent an entirely new character from whom we have no idea what to expect, as opposed to somebody else from the canon (maybe Cassandra Cain being in Birds of Prey put her off-limits for this show, and maybe the writers didn’t think we the viewers could handle differentiating between the Cains and the Kanes…and as for Stephanie Brown…sigh, maybe someday!). Frankly, the Arrowverse has a pretty good track record with original characters…or I may be prejudiced because Sara Lance is one of my favorite characters of all-time, and an incredibly brilliant creation born of years of Arrow’s indecision about how to portray Black Canary. But I digress! It will be very interesting to see how the show unfolds from here, especially considering we are still very much in the thick of Kate Kane’s supporting cast. I, for one, sure wouldn’t mind seeing Jacob and the Crows ditched, but maybe that’s just me…
I join with the consensus here in the comments that I am RELIEVED we didn’t have to put up with Hush-as-Bruce for the entire season. It seems like such a damned tease that they will dance around Bruce Wayne to this extent but never give us the real thing. It’s pretty ironic that the show went through all of season one pulling the whole “the shadow of Bruce Wayne looms large, but you’re not going to see him,” and now the show is forced to do that exact thing with Kate.
And finally, HOT DAMMIT, are you telling me there was a BATMOBILE in that cave the whole time and Luke and Kate never took it for a spin?! COME ONNNNNNNN, show! I was pleased to see a Batmobile that was more of a car than a tank in current continuity (although it appears the upcoming movie will be taking that approach as well).
And finally, I’m bummed that we won’t be getting regular coverage. Especially given the pandemic, there’s plenty of time to talk about TV on the internet, and I sure have missed these comments sections! Nice to see all of my fellow commenters, and I hope everyone is staying well!
It drives me nuts that we have a psychotic Alice and a psychotic Mad Hatter in the same universe and they’ve never met. (Have they? Prove me wrong, show!) It’s like chocolate and peanut butter. Get these two psychos together, and make this show sing!!
I was kind of struggling through the back half of the first season because the Kate/Alice stuff had gotten repetitive, the Kate/Sophie stuff was never interesting at all, and Ruby Rose seemed to be a worse actor in every episode that went by. This change may end up being very, very good for the show.
Can we just take a moment to talk about how cool the Batmobile is? Although how did Luke not know it was there?! Was it literally walled off for no apparent reason?
It seemed that Bruce deliberately walled off the Batmobile. Since he was leaving Gotham, he likely didn’t want anyone (even Luke) to be using it.
Alice is still the MVP…and arguably greatest Arrowverse villain. I like the new actress, strong presence and energy. Ironically every character is more interesting without Kate.Bruce Lame: Why did you do that?Alice: For no reason at all…..Damn her line readings are amazing.
If Kate Kane married Michael Caine, her name would be…well…Kate Caine.
This is like in season 1 of Lois and Clark where Cat Grant was dating businessman Tony Chow, and Lois told her that if they got married her name would be “Cat Chow”.
“even after Tommy/Bruce slipped up about Alice/Beth in Luke’s presence”When Luke says “Wait, you knew Alice was Beth?” I wanted Tommy/Bruce to cover for it by saying “Well, I *am* the world’s greatest detective.”
I’m sorry, how did Batman’s main tech guy NOT KNOW WHERE THE FUCKING BATMOBILE WAS?
How can you like this trash show? Do you have no logic in your Brain? She says she was framed for a crime she didn’t commit.. really? Were they on your person? Were you not committing a felony? Seems you were guilty, not the perpetual victim you to put forward. “time to be powerful” lol… omg I thing I threw up in my mouth a little at this cringe writing.So this “victim” now becomes batwoman. How? Did she train for decades with multiple forms of martial arts around the world? Did she study all the detective forms as Bruce wayne had to do? How is she magically allowed to use all of Bruce’s money and stuff when she’s just a nobody living in a “van down by the river “ – chris farley. There is no hero’s journey, no explanation of how she gets to this spot.and episode 2… bats DO NOT eat rats. they are insectivores. and how, IF they ate a rat do they get glowy eyes magically? the whole idea is infuriatingly idiotic and the worst writing I have even stomached through.And of course they will never say outloud that Kate Kane is dead (even though its obvious she is).. nooo, can’t do that. That would be killing gays on TV, can’t get on that backlash from twitter.And the “batmobile”.. come on CW. How lazy can you get? Yes you have no budget cause you have no viewer, butra stock corvette with a slapped on bat logo.. get out of here. And somehow the 90’s old van outruns it anyway. good job. Gay? – check.. Woman? – Check.. Black? – Check… And lets add more of the same to make sure we can force as much “inclusivity” as possible into a show nobody watches (630k viewers total and dropping per episode). If you actually quote a show that was good, and checked all the boxes I’m sure people would watch, but now you are also going to claim victim and the world is racist and misogynist because they are not tuning in.. umm.. write real show with proper character development and drama and you would be surprised what happens instead of trying to force your agenda with no substance.
There’s a reason av club doesn’t review every episode lmao
did you even watch the show?