Photo: Game Of Thrones
The moment
The election of Lord Commander Snow
The episode
“The House Of Black And White” (season five, episode two)
Back in season two, “You know nothing, Jon Snow” felt incredibly fitting. The character seemed to spend much of those early seasons out of his depth, dour and dull in equal measure. But his weeks with Ygritte—and then Mance Rayder—brought the character alive, imbuing him with knowledge, savvy, and a deeper sense of the stakes for all the various groups fighting in the North. By the time of the siege on Castle Black, Jon had blossomed into a natural leader, his smarts finally catching up to his talents with a sword—so much so that, following Alliser Thorne’s wounding by Tormund Giantsbane during the battle, the bastard of Winterfell becomes the de factor head of the Night’s Watch and beats back the Wildling invasion.
Thus, the surprise of Jon’s subsequent election to Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch isn’t so much that he wins, but that he gets nominated in the first place. Stannis Baratheon makes it very clear that all Jon has to do is kneel and declare his loyalty, and he’ll not only be freed from his duty, he’ll become the Lord of Winterfell. But Jon turns Stannis down—he’s has made no secret of his dislike of leadership positions, and besides, as he tells Sam, why should anyone take him at his word if he renounces the most sacred vow he’s ever uttered? So even though he knows a Lord Commander Thorne would probably make his life hell, he sits idly by while Thorne and Denys Mallister vie for the position; idle, that is, until Sam pipes up to nominate Jon, and while Snow stares daggers into him, the awkward scholar points out that Jon has clearly become the logical choice. But it’s a tie in the ensuing vote between Jon and Thorne—until old Maester Aemon slowly pulls himself up, leans forward, and casts the deciding vote in Jon’s favor. If it wasn’t for the election, there likely wouldn’t be a King of the North.
What we said then
“The same tensions will be at play—the old guard won’t want to follow the new guard’s sensitive, brooding, and merciful style of leadership—but here’s hoping Jon’s experience north of The Wall will get this portion of the Game Of Thrones ensemble off the damn Wall with greater frequency.”
Elsewhere in the episode
Cersei Lannister assumes control of the High Council and takes the position of Hand, which essentially makes her the ruler of Westeros, given Tommen’s skills being more suited to ruling Ser Pounce; Dany learns that Meereen is a powder keg of tension between former slaves and masters, though Drogon returns home for some mother-dragon snuggles with her; Arya arrives at The House Of Black And White in Braavos, and learns that becoming “no one” is going to involve a complete renunciation of her previous life; Jaime and Bronn set sail for Dorne to rescue Myrcella, while Ellaria Sand is pissed that Dorne’s Prince Martel refuses to declare war in retaliation for Oberyn’s death; Tyrion and Varys continue on the path tom Meereen; Brienne and Podrick confront Sansa and Littlefinger, only for Sansa to turn away Brienne’s services in favor of her Machiavellian traveling companion; and definitely most important, Shireen is teaching Gilly how to read.
Previously: Tyrion kills Tywin
80 Comments
Fun behind-the-scenes fact: Jon’s story arc of going from acclaimed new leader to being brutally knifed to death by his followers is based on every British Conservative party leader in history.
Right-wingers love their strong daddies. Until they get too weak and need to be replaced.
It’s more of a scorpion-crossing-the-river-parable situation. It’s just their nature.
And left wingers have no leaders at all!
Wow, can diss conservatives, but a simple,” there aren’t any left wing leaders” is too much?SJNon warriors for sure
I’m looking forward to May’s resurrection….
And here we come to the worst part of Season 5: The Dorne subplot.It’s not that I have a problem with them swapping Elliara in place of one of Oberyn’s illegitimate daughters whose name eludes me from the book. My problem is that every action she and the Sand Snakes take in the show make no sense and doesn’t benefit them in the slightest.In the book, the Sand Snakes’ plan was to plot a coup by crowning Myrcella queen under Dornish law. Granted it didn’t work, but it’s more thought out then just killing Myrcella, who was basically the hostage of the Martells which would have made it difficult for Cersci to move against them.
Everyone knows Dorne sucks, but your complaint just doesn’t make sense. The Martells WANT the Lannisters to move against them, killing Myrcrella is a pretty good way to make that happen.
That subplot was truly so bad that you could have almost read it as an intentional nuking of more “strong female character” types, drowning them in tropes and uselessness so the showrunners could get back to the white guys up North. But more likely it’s just that they needed Dorne for a couple of chess moves and realized too late they bit off more than they could chew by bringing it into the show.
I suspect that they just had bad casting and bad direction during the Dorne stuff and the extremely demanding and weird production of the show meant they basically just had to cut it down as much as possible and sprint through it instead of fixing it.
Alexander Siddig, Indira Varma and Keisha Castle-Hughes are all fine actors, it was the material that was given to them that let them down, especially compared to how well the adaptation had been handled.
Jessica Henwick (who plays one of the Sand Snakes who barely ever talks) is a pretty good actor too. She’s the best part of Iron Fist by far and the show likely would have been much better if it just featured her instead of Finn Jones.
The scene I remember the most from the Dorne subplot is the absolutely terrible fight scene between Jaime, Bronn and the Sand Snakes. Not only is it a product of a lazily-written coincidence (both Jaime and the Sand Snakes coming to kidnap Myrcella at exactly the same time) but it’s got the worst fight choreography of the entire series by a long, long way.
None of the characters looks like they’ve had adequate training or prep, and it literally looks like a bunch of five-year-olds using what they think are ‘martial arts moves’ to play fight, complete with extra twirling and spinning added ‘cause they think it looks cool. There’s a bit where one snake literally just walks away from Jaime (who she’s fighting) while pointlessly twirling her staff, and Jaime just stares at her back the whole time.
Your theory makes a lot of sense, is what I’m saying.
This criticism makes sense except for the part where Jaime already has an obviously gold sword hand and is, at that point, a sub-replacement level swordsman for a squire… And if people didn’t do comically showy shit while fighting, in real life, all the time.
I mean, yeah, we could expect a certain amount of clumsiness with Jaime, but he should at least look like he’s trying to hit the other characters. It also doesn’t excuse the amateurism on display from Bronn and the Sands. I mean, the show’s just done setting them up as this trio of badass warriors, and then completely undercuts all that in this scene.
‘And if people didn’t do comically showy shit while fighting, in real life, all the time.’Really? Regardless, I’m not knocking show-offy fights in film and TV. In fact I posted a pretty long-winded comment in the other article about the Mountain vs. Oberyn fight where the show-offiness is super well done and makes sense in the context of the fight, plus it actually looks good. But when the characters don’t look like they’re even trying to really hit each other it makes the whole thing look even worse.
Literally last weekend a guy got knocked out while showboating at the very end of a fight he had otherwise dominated…
https://deadspin.com/way-too-cocky-boxer-taunts-opponent-gets-knocked-out-1833525220
So, yeah. Really. Every once in a while someone will overestimate the gap between their abilities and the abilities of their adversaries. This happens in real life. It happens in literature. It happens in film and television. It’s so common that one could probably call it a trope… Wait… What’s that? Okay, hang on. I’m getting word from my producer that… Yup. It’s a trope!
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArrogantKungFuGuy
The TV tropes page you linked to is about their attitude, and mentions nothing about what they do when they’re fighting. And the boxer taunting his opponent is pretty much the opposite of what I was talking about – rather than doing anything ‘intimidating’ or ‘fancy-looking’ he’s just lowering his guard and strutting about like he can’t be hurt.It’s besides the point anyway, but maybe it wasn’t clear from my first post. I was trying to say that the characters end up looking like 5-year olds showboating, not that they’re showboating themselves. Instead, they’re just inserting pointless, clunky, additional movements to give the fight the illusion of dynamism.
EDIT: Someone made gifs.
so bad
It actually starts off okay, the snakes divide their enemies, whip girl and knife girl trading off with Bronn so he has trouble pinning either down. While spear chick keeps Kingslayer busy. The problem is this fight would end really quickly in real life, so they had to draw it out with “flashy” stuff, and they really failed to understand the role of each weapon. Also they equipped the sisters poorly. In reality, Jamie would be dead, and Bronn would have killed the other two, while probably badly wounded/dying.
The thing that pisses me off the most about this is how easy it is to make all of the weapons they use look cool, without doing that crap. The spear is the king of weapons, it is literally the most useful melee weapon in open melee combat, and against an unarmoured swordsman without a shield it’s basically an auto win. (It’s possible to beat it, but the odds are so stacked against you it’s stupid.) Plus they already had Oberen’s choreography to work from, so the frankly idiotic spear work her is inexcusable. She just has to hold the point out and he cannot hit her for gods sake. If they want her to look cool, she should be jumping around, cartwheeling or something (Though that really will just get you whacked.) and tapping him with the spear, while he can’t do shit about it. Not baton twirling while leading him on a parade march. Honestly Jaime would be pretty dead here no matter how good he is, but the fact he’s basically crippled and y’know fighting with the wrong hand, means he’d be dead after the first exchange.Bronn has a good chance, but only because the other sisters have fucking knives. The whip is cool, and they actually use it well at first. Though it should be louder, because having a whip crack around your face is going to be a pain, and half the weapons utility is the shock effect. But they have no idea how to get the knives in close to kill Bronn, what with him having a sword, and it shows. (Reach is king)It isn’t hard to makes knife work look cool, and movies do it all the time, but it is still a tiny blade compared to the sword. The sort of standing around while Bronn spins is because they A) don’t actually want to kill Bronn or the sisters here, and B) didn’t think out how the hell the sisters with knives were going to actually threaten him, once he got past the whip.Which would be tough without just jumping on him and stabbing like crazy. Now, if instead of Knives the one girl had a rapier and dagger combo (like the dumb prince), and Bronn had a shield, while whip girl keeps messing with him, that could be a tense fight. But as it was, they had to have Bronn do some silly shit, like that half spin thing, to prevent him from kicking their asses after he neutralizes the whip. Also they should have kept bow sister from the books if they wanted a real threat here, and given Jamie and Bronn a third stringer dude, who could die to up the stakes.I would have lengthened the scene with some dialogue, and shown Jamie really struggling while spear chick is wary, recognizes him and plays around like her dear old dad. It’s the only reasonable explanation for why he’s still alive. Well that and the fact that she didn’t seem to want to hit him. (I love how we get like three spin around and turn your back to your enemy moves in one scene, with two of them happening at the same time, with people engaged with each other. When I was a kid I did that once and got poked in the back, and learned never to do it again.)
Agreed, that’s probably the only way to save it. The only other thought I had was that they could maybe have even turned it into an on-foot chase sequence with Myrcella running away and both parties chasing after her while trying to take down the other. Would’ve been different, at least. Although presuming that this fight is the way it is because it was made under time constraints that probably wouldn’t be so practical.
That would have been interesting, and shown off more of the palace. Though that, even more than time, may have been a constraint. They were after all shooting on location at a historical site. I heard production on this season was a nightmare too, with multiple crews and showrunners basically not sleeping because of the constant shooting and coordinating between time zones, so I’m not surprised quality fell in some cases. Honestly fight choreography has never been one of this shows strengths. It has some great scenes, and then a large number of scenes that are just whatever. There’s a lot of “Plot needs this to happen, doesn’t matter if it makes sense.” Like a certain giant just not having a weapon or shield, and letting himself be shot full of arrows, and many, many armoured figures being killed with a single hit from a sword. But that’s Hollywood for you.
Let me back up and admit what I should have admitted all along:
You’re totally right. Nobody ever fights like this. Fights all contain maximum efficiency and no wasted motion. Always. Here’s what really happened…
Benioff and Weiss were having a writing section and they knew I was in town, so they gave me a call. I brought over a couple of bottles of wine. They happened to be working on the Dorne section when I got there, so we started drinking and I told them how I totally invented showboating in combat sports. It’s a completely original idea of mine that had never before been displayed in real life or in media. As we polished off the second bottle of wine they mentioned that they needed a fight choreographer but were tight on funds due to something about “ice spiders” in the final season. (Spoiler alert?) I mentioned that I knew the worst fight choreographer in L.A. – a guy so down on his luck that he would basically work for airfare, room, and board. I gave them his number. They made the call. Now you have some GIFs… and beef with me because I’m at the root of the first ever instance of showboating in combat. I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. It’ll never catch on.
“Let me back up and admit what I should have admitted all along:
You’re totally right.”Thanks! Glad we’re in agreement. You’ll have to excuse me as I stopped reading after this sentence – I’m sure the rest of the post was really interesting though.
I’m not sure you’re qualified to evaluate whether or not anything is interesting (isn’t that a “takes one to know one” thing?), but I appreciate the thought…
Jacob Brogan’s reaction at Slate to the killing of Doran was un-ironic boosting of Strong Female Characters taking down “the decadent phallocrats of Dorne”. I guess it’s idiots like him that the show was being written for at that point.
It’s funny how many neckbeards fell for it and decried it as feminist propaganda, when actual feminist nerds hated the Dorne plot even more.
Are you really suggesting GoT doesn’t have enough “strong female characters”? The show is female ddominated as is. Cersei, Olenna, Marjory, Sansa, Arya, Catelyn, Yara. Come on now. You’re being extremely disingenuous. And worse, you’re using it as an excuse for taking a jab at white men. Pathetic.
I was willing to buy the notion that Ellaria would try to assassinate Myrcella but the notion that Prince Doran would be dining with her after she’d essentially launched a coup was too much.
Letting her live made some sense within the theme of weakness within the Dornish palace but having her actually dine with Jaime and Bronn let alone have her at the dock to wish the woman she’d tried to murder farewell was just too much of a stretch.
I’m also pissed that they did away with the reveal that Prince Doran was backing Dany the whole time. They didn’t have to include the one son of his heading off to Mereen to marry her since all that accomplished was releasing Dany’s other dragons but they could have kept the reveal.
That reveal kind of makes Doran look like a massive idiot though. “I have been waiting 15 years to unveil my master plan…and the master plan is to send my boring son across the world to beg”. People seem to forget how much of an utter disaster Dorne was in the books too…
That wasn’t his master plan though. His original plan was to marry Arianne to Viserys and then back the Targs taking back Westeros. He sends Quentyn (who agreed is a boring character, even the books seem to realize this) to try to salvage the deal when he learns about how Viserys has died and Dany has taken control.It’s not really the brilliance of the plan that matters, it’s that Doran holds a grudge and isn’t the pushover he is initially portrayed as. Who knows if we’ll ever get any new books, but it also seems like the way Quentyn’s plot unfolded would lead Dorne to allying with Young Griff instead of Dany.The new Dornish and Ironborn characters in AFOC and ADOD aren’t as great as the original characters, but GRRM still weaved them in with their own complexities instead of trying to tie them neatly to the existing story. And that made them much more compelling than in the shows IMO. Of course, that complexity is also likely why he can’t finish the books.
Saying the characters in Dorne aren’t as good as the originals is hilarious understatement. Every single Dornish character ever introduced has done nothing but fail and die, and spout cliched nonsense.
Fair enough and yes, every Dornish character on this show is garbage. My point was just that I didn’t think that was the case in the books and think that they have been developed well for bigger plots in the books we may never read.Same for the Ironborn.
I think you misunderstood, I was talking about the Dornish characters in the books also. How on earth have they been developed well? The sand snakes are all paper thin stereotypes that were captured almost as soon as they were introduced. Most of Arianne’s character is pouting and being sexy, and failing at plots. Doran had one cool speech then went back to failing. Areo Hotah has all the character of a wooden chair. Even the minor characters are failures, like Darkstar who couldn’t even kill a little girl and spouts hilariously stupid lines like “I am of the night”
Why do you keep bringing up failing as if being successful is a requirement for a character to be well-developed?Anyways, I think the Dornish plot is more interesting overall which is what I said in my OP and meant to reinforce in my last reply. I think the characters more naturally fit the overarching story and that their backstories and motivations are more complex and not entirely tied to events going on outside of Dorne. Arianne, for example, is motivated by a belief that her father has passed her over as his successor. The show basically took one inkling of the Dorne plot (the Sand Snakes wanting revenge for Oberyn’s death) and made it the whole enchilada. Would also add the obvious, that the books aren’t completed yet while the Dornish plot on the shows most certainly is.
My point is that ALL they do is fail. That’s it. It’s not like the Starks don’t fail too, but they also sometimes get victories. It’s not just being hopelessly incompetent 24/7, as an entire Kingdom! And how on earth do characters like the sand snakes or Darkstar fit? I’ll admit that at least Arianne does, because she’s a cut-rate Cersei
I mean it’s hard to say, the Dornish characters have really only been in one book so far (you could technically say two but AFFC and ADOD were meant to be one big book before GRRM split it) and their role in the story as a whole isn’t settled yet. The Sand Snake’s have a few brief scenes in the books and then they disperse to different locations (Nymeria and Tyene are on their way to KL, Obara is hunting Darkstar, and Sarella is likely in Oldtown). Darkstar’s motivations for trying to kill Myrcella are unknown and likely will become more clear when Obara and Areo catch up to him and that in turn will make him fit into the larger story.The seeds are there for them to be a part of the endgame in TWOW and, again, I liked that their motivations weren’t purely based on the Mountain killing Oberyn.
I liked Quentyn – more specifically, I liked how he assumes that because he’s the noble prince, that this is his story, and he’s going to triumph over everything and win the day. When things don’t go according to the exact sequence of events he’d gone over in his head a thousand times, he does the stupidest thing he possibly could, assuming he’s still the hero, and receives the exact reward he should have (“Oh,” he thought. Then he began to scream.) It’s also a nice accompaniment to the Young Griff plotline, where we have another entitled young man eager to rule, but doesn’t seem to grasp the intricacies of how to be a leader (No matter how skilled at fantasy chess he may be.)I agree that adding these new plot threads are likely what’s keeping Martin from advancing, though. While they’re interesting new wrinkles that help flesh out the world in the aftermath of ASOS – and in Quentyn’s case, just serve as a fun, self-contained riff on the traditional Chosen One archetype – I’m guessing they will likely be of little consequence in the third act. Martin’s mimicking his characters by getting caught up in short term machinations rather than looking toward the larger picture.
They could’ve changed it it in theshow and made the Sand Snakes prefer his son marry Dany, and that’s why they want Myrcella gone, meanwhile Doran wanted to make Trystane king via Myrcella and getting rid of Tommen
Arianne (who I think you are thinking of) isn’t one of Oberyn’s illegitimate children, she’s the legitimate daughter of Doran.
Thank you so much! It’s been a while since I read the books as I’ve said previously.
In the book, the Sand Snakes’ plan was to plot a coup by crowning Myrcella queen under Dornish law. Granted it didn’t work, but it’s more thought out then just killing Myrcella, who was basically the hostage of the Martells which would have made it difficult for Cersci to move against them.
It also played into the recurrent overestimation that each generation has about its House’s capabilities based upon their House’s legendary pasts. The Lannisters’ pride in their sigil is the most obvious example, but you see echoes of that theme in the Greyjoys, the Arryns, and as it turns out, the younger Martels, who confuse the fact that the Targaryens could never break Dorne (which the Dornish managed, at tremendous cost) with the fact that Dorne could take on the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in a straight fight and win (which they could not hope to achieve). In a way, it’s a subtle, enduring testament to Ned’s rulership that of all the younger generation, it’s Robb who tends to be the most practical about the fact that no, the North alone cannot beat everyone else, and that we need allies in this fight to win. Robb wasn’t perfect in that regard (had he ransomed Sansa for Jaime, he could have turned right back around and brokered an alliance with the Reach by marrying her to Willas Tyrell), but he was hamstrung mainly by bad circumstances. Had he not had to marry a Frey to cross into the Riverlands, or the Vale honored its alliance, or the Greyjoys honored their non-aggression pact, or Stannis and Renly not fought each other, or Edmure not tried to hold the Trident against Tywin, Robb would have won even given his weakened position.
Worst part of the series*
Well there’s still Stannis burning Shireen and Ramsey raping Sansa to get to.
Both strong contenders, but were over relatively quickly. The Dorne nonsense dragged out for a season and a half.
That already happened….Where are you in watching the seasons? You must be far behind.
Yeah it was just all over the place. The fundamentals of show-Dorne actually seem promising at first brush: some Jaime-Bronn buddy comedy, internal conflict over how to address Oberyn’s demise, fewer characters than in the book so it’s all a bit easier to follow on screen. Ellaria was a solid character back in season 4 and makes a lot of sense as a stand-in for Arianne, given the realities of TV. The semi-forbidden love nature of Myrcella and Trystane’s courtship is a good wrinkle. But it just ended up feeling inept and dull. Ellaria lost most of her character and depth from the previous season, instead opting to just have her repeatedly declare her desire for revenge. This got tiresome fast, and left Dorne feeling like it was constant set-up until it just kind of fizzled out.The Sand Snakes never really developed personalities – they were mostly differentiated by their choice of weapons, and the one of them being super horny for Bronn. I think we would have been better off just giving Oberyn one daughter and actually developing her, or even just removing the Sand Snakes entirely in favor of Arianne, leaving Ellaria to basically stand in for the Snakes in seeking vengeance.Prince Doran was reduced from subtle, long-game schemer to a know-nothing who basically existed to resist the actual plot. Even a hint of Targaryen sympathies or some sort of plan besides “chill” would have gone a long way to making him a real character. As it stands, he was a huge waste of a phenomenal casting choice. I also think the plan to crown Myrcella would have been a stronger basis for the Dorne plot than the plan to assassinate her. Sure, it requires a little more setup and has more moving parts, but it’s not *that* complex and they laid some groundwork as far as Dorne having different inheritance laws. I would have rather they just removed Dorne’s plot from the show (between Oberyn’s death and Dany’s arrival, that is) instead of giving us the weird narrative cul-de-sac that we ended up with. It’s kind of strange how much they struggled to establish the characters there, considering how well they did with the other major houses.
In hindsight I find it extremely annoying that so much of Jon Snow’s subsequent arc revolves around his highly legalistic interpretation of the Night’s Watch vows.He won’t kneel to Stannis and accept the name Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell because it would be dishonorable? Okay. That’s how he was raised.But I don’t think his sacred vows take blood-magic resurrections into account as a get-off-the-Wall free card. Once he’s brought back from the dead he should still be subject to the same vows because he’s alive. Ramsey says as much, and Jon only gets away with it because he wins the Battle of the Bastards.Nobody ever brings it up again, and it’s not clear that everyone knows Jon Snow is a magic zombie. In fact, when they later meet Dany and Davos starts talking about how Jon took a knife in the heart, Jon stares daggers at him with an “ixnay on the essurectionray.”
And he should’ve lost the Battle of the Bastards for being a complete moron. Why anyone follows him is beyond me. Although his actions during that battle are far less stupid than his “plan” to go beyond the wall with a few people… on foot… to catch a walker… that are always in large groups… to prove to his adversaries that already know wacky magic shit exists that wacky magic zombies exist… expecting that seeing one of them will someone convince these adversaries that there are hundreds of thousands of them above the wall… naively thinking that, even if they believe this, they won’t see it as an opportunity to let competitors to the throne die then worry about themselves later…Jon’s whole noble and honorable schtick is tiring. His plot armor is tiring. In a show where blind “honorable” stupidity has always been met with serious, usually deadly, consequences Jon’s arc survives on deus machina far too often. Dany, even following her most selfless intentions, isn’t stupid enough to leave major threats unattended. Well, until she starts following Jon’s lead last season, gets a dragon killed and gives the Night King a massive weapon.
You can kind of see what they’re trying to do by giving Jon the same fatal character flaw as Ned and Robb (i.e. a basic inability to predict the actions of dishonorable people), but the point should be that unlike his dad/uncle and brother/cousin, Jon *learns*. At some point after Thorne and Olly conspired to stab him a bunch of times he should have started to treat everyone like a potential Thorne or Olly — and this should have been the reason that he succeeds where the other Stark men failed.Whatever happens in the final episodes, they didn’t do that. Jon learns nothing from being assassinated. He keeps marching straight into his enemies’ traps and has only avoided dying again because of plot armor.
Exactly. He’s already been betrayed to point he was killed and got a second chance for fuck’s sake. You can have a character that believes in the general goodness of people, believes in honor, but also isn’t so stupid that his experiences never make his expectations adjust to reality. Neither Ned nor Robb were close to that naive. Ned’s honor made him incapable of navigating the Game but he still saw it, understood it to a degree, and resigned himself to his blind spots that led to his death. Robb, even in his misplaced trust of allegiance, had scenes where he questioned how trustworthy that allegiance may be. They were both played but neither were complete idiots. They were beaten by being out of their element but both at least recognized they weren’t entirely in their element.Jon, on the other hand, just barrels forward barely cognizant of any “element” at all. If “Jon doesn’t learn” is his defining character trait then do that, but have consequences, rather than have everyone love him for no apparent reason even though he’s cost them all dearly. I was dumbfounded after Battle of the Bastards that nobody said, “hey, asshole, you blew our whole plan, did exactly what Ramsey wanted you to do, after we agreed that Ramsey was going to do that, so expect it and don’t do what Ramsey wants you to do,” in not so many words. A leader doesn’t recklessly destroy all hope of winning, costing thousands of his soldiers lives, over his selfish sense of honor or vengeance, and still have his soldiers follow him. Jon somehow ducks the consequences of his choices continually.
His watch ended when he died. Jon is VERY literal when it comes to following the rule of law on the show. He broke no oath by dying.
Yeah I get that he’s being overly literal, and it bothers me. It’s a monastic order. All members take the vows to renounce any allegiance to family past, present and future in service of the greater good of watching the Wall. The clear intent of the vows is that once you take the black, there’s no rejoining your past life.I would argue that it’s out of character for Jon, who pointedly turns down an opportunity from Stannis to escape his vows, to focus his attention so narrowly on the question of whether or not death and resurrection technically fulfills the oath of “[My watch] shall not end until my death.” The technicality is beside the point.A Stark should focus on the spirit of the vows and not the letter of the vows. And Jon basically uses his death as an excuse to break every part of the Night’s Watch vows — he seeks out a marriage alliance with Dany, wears the crown of King in the North, assumes the role of Lord of Winterfell, and seeks glory at the head of an army. I’m not buying it.Also, for everyone who doesn’t know that Jon died and then came back from the dead — which is almost everyone aside from Jon’s inner circle and the 40 Crows left at the Wall — he would appear to be a deserter. But nobody, including the Northern lords, ever comments on his desertion aside from Ramsay Bolton (who would have executed him anyway). Which means that if Jon had never died and just deserted from the Watch and led an army to retake Winterfell, nobody would care much about the desertion.
Nope.Love the original show. Would have loved to watch this. Not willing to pony up extra cash for OldPeopleNetwork Access. Call me back when we as a society have decided that paying $100+ for cable and another $20-$60 for each of a couple hundred streaming networks is a seriously stupid idea and this show ends up on normal viewing channels.
Wrong article. I think you got Kinja’ed.
Ugh, that was so dumb.
“while Ellaria Sand is pissed that Dorne’s Prince Martel refuses to declare war in retaliation for Oberyn’s death”No mention of Dorne required, thanks.
Ellaria repeatedly calling it murder really got to me. Does she not know what a trial by combat is?Doesn’t mean she can’t want revenge or that it wouldn’t inform her decision to side with Dany later on, but the only reason Oberyn is dead is because he voluntarily entered a fight to the death and lost.
And lost because he was being a total jerk and got carried away with himself. Like everybody from Dorne.
And lost because he was being a total jerk and got carried away with himself.
Which would be totally lost on Ellaria because it seemed that type of behavior is what being truly powerful over someone else is; histrionics.
Ellaria Sand is just all around bad on the show. I have no idea what the writers were going with her, but they completely biffed it.
the only reason Oberyn is dead is because he voluntarily entered a fight to the death and lost.
True enough, however, when she was going on and on to Doran about revenge against Myrcella, she did seem to at least allude to the idea that the Lannister’s are responsible because they were falsely accusing Tyrion of Joffrey’s death to begin with, which led to the trial by combat. That still doesn’t make Oberyn’s death “murder,” but does rationalize the “vengeance” feeling a bit.
Aided as well by legit grievances towards the Lannister family for their involvement in the rebellion
I think Aemon knew exactly who he was voting for. And that Mormont groomed Jon because he knew too. As to how they know, it seems to me Rhaegar would have told Aemon just in case his new wife and heir needed a refuge. Doran wasn’t a weakling, except physically. The show thinks he was and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes were strong women, instead of vicious caricatures. I suppose in Hollywood, it’s all about agency.
Never before had a felt so much joy and fear for Jon.
Question from a non-book reader: How did the Dorne storyline play out in the books? I imagine it couldn’t have been as bad as in the show.
It’s still playing out. The major reveal in the books is that Doran Martell is not happy that members of his family have been inserting themselves into the politicking of King’s Landing, because he’s been orchestrating a plot in secret for over a decade to to ally his House (and, by extension, all of Dorne) to the Targaryens, and lead a revolt against the crown.He intended to marry his daughter Arianne to Viserys, but with Viserys dead he sent his son Quentyn across the Narrow Sea to court Daenerys and fulfill the pact. (Of course, with Viserys dead – along with another minor character, who was the only other witness to to the agreement – Daenerys has no clue what he’s talking about and rejects him. It only got worse for poor Quentyn from there.)Currently, another possible Targaryen claimant to the throne has appeared, and Doran has sent Arianne to investigate. It’s a big knot of a story with lots of characters who didn’t even begin to make the cut to the TV version, and one wonders just how consequential it will all be in the end.
That sounds a 1000 times better than what we got on the show.
Eh. Does it though?
i’d like your take on what you think will happen at the end of the show? i think the only sure thing is that sansa will live. she has come too far and knows how to play the game. the rest are up for grabs.
No clue! No clue where Martin’s story will end up either. In addition to a number of plotlines from the later books, the show has also cut out a lot of prophecy talk and supernatural stuff that has fueled reader speculation. Based on how the show has gone after moving beyond the source material, I do get the feeling that we’re going to steer toward a more traditional fantasy ending. I want to believe that everybody is still vulnerable, but suspect a lot of the core cast will survive.
If FAegon (and Jon Connington) were going to show up, last season would have been the time to do it.
I know lots of book readers hated the invented subplot in season 4 of Jon’s attack on the Nights Watch deserters, but to me it was the first time he seemed anything like a compelling lead and was also the first time he was in any sort of leadership position within the Watch, presaging his election later.Less relevant to the election, I prefer Bran’s near-miss here to the similar one in season 3 (as well as some others for the Stark family) because he deliberately chooses not to contact Jon, knowing that Jon would force him back south of the wall for his own safety.
Jon has never made a particularly compelling lead for me. Partly due to me not finding Harington to be a particularly good actor and partly due to the character’s stupid decisions just being met with “hero” plot armor. How he, and everyone who obliviously follows him, aren’t dead yet is beyond me.
Agreed. When Lyanna Mormont, a ten year old child out leaders you, your in trouble
I agree, to a large extent.
I like Jon Snow but the plot armor has *always* been a huge problem. Every big battle he’s been a part of he should have lost. He was even losing to Carl fucking Tanner in Craster’s Keep.
And I thought that the AV Club would make it through a GoT review without mentioning that damn cat.