Hawkeye delivers explosive action—and a potentially game-changing cameo
Directors Bert and Bertie bring a welcome new energy as Hawkeye reaches its halfway point
TV Reviews Hawkeye
If there was an off-note to last week’s two-part Hawkeye premiere, it was the slightly odd choice to end the second episode with a dramatic close-up of Kate and Clint’s captor, Maya Lopez (Alaqua Cox). Since we didn’t know anything about her, it wasn’t a reveal that particularly packed a punch. But oh what a difference eight minutes can make! The extended origin story prologue that kicks off this all-around strong third episode does such a great job of succinctly establishing Maya’s backstory that she now feels like an essential, deeply sympathetic part of the show’s world. There’s also the fact that the prologue maybe (maybe) reintroduces a fan favorite character from the Netflix Defenders universe, but more on that later.
One of the big (and controversial) innovations of these Disney+ Marvel shows is that they’re director-driven, rather than writer-driven, as has traditionally been the model for TV. In fact, Hawkeye is the first Disney+ Marvel show not to have one person direct the entire thing. And you can really feel the shift this week as British directing duo Bert and Bertie take over from Rhys Thomas, who helmed the first two episodes. “Echoes” is just as funny as last week’s episodes and even more action packed. But it also has an air of melancholy that’s distinct as well. This is an episode that never loses sight of the fact that our hero killed Maya’s dad. And that adds some dark emotional weight to even its zippiest action moments.
Key to making this episode work are those great opening performances from Darnell Besaw as young Maya and Zahn McClarnon as her demanding but loving dad William. Rather than send his deaf daughter to a school for the deaf, William wants her to learn to “jump between two worlds” at a traditional school, where we see what a challenge it is for Maya to lip read in a busy classroom. It’s the same high expectations William gently places on his daughter in her karate class, where he reminds her that speed matters more than strength. Yet William’s high standards are balanced out by his warm paternal instincts too. By the time Ronin has killed William for his involvement with the Tracksuit Mafia, we understand just what a massive loss it is for Maya—and why she would choose to channel her anger into becoming a leader in the organization.
The episode’s melancholy doesn’t end there, although we do get a brief respite during the stellar action setpiece that gives this hour its backbone. After last week’s episodes struggled to deliver anything more than passable action scenes, this week ups the ante in a major way with a welcome dose of creativity from Bert and Bertie. That starts when Clint breaks free from his binds and parkours his way over some empty shelves, using stuffed animals as his main weapon. And it continues out and onto the street, where Clint shows off some impressive getaway driver skills as Kate works her way through his collection of trick arrows.
With its lengthy opening oner set to rock versions of “Dance Of The Sugar Plum Fairy” and “Russian Dance” from Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker, the whole car chase is an absolute blast. The episode has particular fun with those trick arrows, which can shoot putty and nets, blow things up, and deploy acid and smoke bombs. The showiest moment comes when Clint uses a special Pym Particle arrow to enlarge a regular arrow to battering ram proportions. Although, for my money, the best moment in the whole sequence is when Clint finds himself engaging in a hand-to-hand squabble over a gun with the passenger of another car, all while he’s driving down a bridge.
Like the best action scenes, this one is as much about character as cool imagery. As Kate helpfully establishes while giving one of her captors advice about dealing with his girlfriend, the theme of the week is communication. And since Maya smashes Clint’s hearing aid before the action begins, he and Kate have to figure out how to communicate without talking. It’s funny when they’re out of step and sweet when they’re in sync. Kate gets a chance to genuinely impress her idol with her archery skills. And though Clint still isn’t thrilled with the idea of someone following in his footsteps, by the end of the episode he and Kate are much more of a full-fledged team than they were before.
Kate also gets to demonstrate her empathetic side too, as she helps Clint communicate with his young son Nathaniel over the phone in one of the episode’s most quietly heartbreaking sequences. While Hailee Steinfeld continues to shine, it’s actually Jeremy Renner who impressed me most this week. There’s a palpable worldweariness to his take on Clint in this series, not just in his obvious “I’m over this shit” moments but also in quieter moments like the one where he has to reckon with his young son preemptively telling him that it’s okay to miss Christmas. Clint no longer bounces back with the spring of a young superhero—physically or emotionally. And Renner excels at projecting worn down, guilt-ridden dad energy.
Even the goofy diner scene where Kate pitches Clint on Hawkeye’s classic comic’s costume is more somber than funny. Though Clint tells Maya that Black Widow killed Ronin—trying to pass off his metaphorical experience as a literal one—Kate senses that Clint and Ronin have more of a connection than he’s letting on. I’ll be curious to see how much Hawkeye is actually willing to hold Clint accountable or whether it’s just using his Ronin backstory for some temporary dramatic weight. Watching Maya cradle her dying father is a pretty brutal image if the show plans to give Clint full redemption by the end. For now, however, there’s an interesting tension to watching his bond with Kate grow as we wait for the other shoe to drop.
It’s a good place to leave our central duo at the halfway point of the season. And while the episode’s cliffhanger suggests that Jack Duquesne is going to take center stage next week, it’s another Marvel villain that’s on my mind at the moment. “Echoes” reveals that the Tracksuit Mafia is actually run by Maya’s “Uncle.” And while we barely get a glimpse of the mysterious headhoncho, the little chuckle we do hear definitely made me think of Vincent D’Onofrio’s Wilson Fisk from Netflix’s Daredevil series. (And that was even before I learned that Maya and Fisk are linked in the comics as well.) Could we be in for a crossover that revives a corner of the MCU that Marvel Studios has basically disowned? It’d be a big but welcome swing. And it’s a good example of a tease that nods towards in-the-weeds Marvel aficionados in an episode that otherwise has something to offer Marvel fans of all levels.
Stray observations
- If “Uncle” doesn’t turn out to be Fisk, maybe he’ll be Kate’s dad?
- I love the balance Hawkeye strikes between having Kate openly idolize Clint but also mercilessly tease him, like with her “Good thing they call you HawkEYE and not HawkEAR” text.
- The episode doesn’t want us to think about it, but Kate definitely killed someone when she blew up that van, right?
- Between this and Reservation Dogs, Zahn McClarnon is having a hell of a year!
- I appreciate Kate acknowledging the fact that Kazi (Fra Fee) is hot, although I’m currently unsure if his connection to Maya is supposed to be flirtatious, familial, or just boss/underling.
- The shot of that Christmas tree lot Santa re-inflating is impeccably timed.
- “I hope he’s got a dongle arrow to make this useful.”
254 Comments
A game changing cameo in a Marvel production? No….
Yeah, as good as it’ll be to see Wilson Fisk again it won’t top this.
I appreciate Kate acknowledging the fact that Kazi (Fra Fee) is hot, although I’m currently unsure if his connection to Maya is supposed to be flirtatious, familial, or just boss/underling.
I initially thought he was her brother, then when they had that one-on-one conversation I assumed boyfriend.
I’m hoping he’s just a friend/translator because the MCU needs some more male/female pairings that are not romantic.
Hands down the best part of this episode was the use of Clint’s trick arrows. Finally we get to see the goofy stuff that had been missing from MCU version of Hawkeye, nice added touch having signature purple colour for the various different ones.As for Kate’s rough drawing of comic book accurate Hawkeye costume, surely last week would have been the better opportunity to do that in-joke? When Clint was in larping hell, they could easily have given him a costume that was roughly like old comic book look.
She asks a good question.
That’s as beautiful a set-up and pay-off as this week’s plunger arrow.
Reminds me of the bridge scene from Batman: Year One
I was REALLY hoping for little pop up texts when they broke out the trick arrows
That answers the question properly, but I do love the single panel ‘Because… Boomerangs.’ response that Clint gives at the time.
Because…boomerangs
Her costume in those panels looks so uncomfortable… why cut out fabric and expose skin right next to a belt?
Hey, it’s probably just me, but the letters in Clint’s name almost look like a different and nastier word that completely changes the mood in the last panel.
They apparently did have someone in the LARP group dressed in the classic Hawkeye costume (it can be seen in some quick shots in this featurette). Seems like they might have cut him out in the final cut, though.
Yeah I saw that featurette and I was confused, thinking “they never showed that!”.Maybe it would have been too on the nose, but it would have been nice to have seen on screen.
I own that barrel armor. Mine is black. It’s very popular with SCAdians because it’s cheap compared to metal.
Nah, I like the idea that a girl who grew up idolizing someone she sees as a superhero designing an over the top costume for him.It’s also a great set-up for his lecture on why he doesn’t want to be looked up to.
Funny enough there was such an easter egg in the llarp scene.
I heard there was a LARPer wearing a costume that was basically his comic outfit. But they removed it in favor of this week’s drawing so they didn’t do the same joke twice.
I really hope she gets around to skewering Clint for both insisting that he’s not a hero, he’s a secret ghost operative who must exist outside discovery, but is also a guy that really leans hard into Wonka-grade purple for all his gasses and paints.
“but is also a guy that really leans hard into Wonka-grade purple for all his gasses and paints.”
So, in your mind, Clint Barton designs and builds his arrows.
Interesting, I guess…
Uncle ?
That’s definitely Wilson Fisk.I love the idea that either Scott Lang or Hank Pym had to brand the embiggening arrow. Is there any point in having the arrowhead bear the “PYM” logo? No. Is it cool to look at just before it’s fired? Yes.Please get Pizza Dog some real dog food. Watching him gobble scraps of junk food gives me more anxiety than the entire run of WandaVision.I am also kind of enjoying the running dread of knowing that Yelena Belova will appear at some point but having no idea how.There’s a menorah in Moira Brandon’s apartment, and I believe I spotted a mezuzah on her doorpost in the previous ep. Does that make her the second confirmed Jewish character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, after Micro?
I love the idea that either Scott Lang or Hank Pym had to brand the
embiggening arrow. Is there any point in having the arrowhead bear the
“PYM” logo? No. Is it cool to look at just before it’s fired? Yes.
It brought back to mind the scene in Civil War which somewhat referenced this cover. That whole car cash scene was glorious.
“That whole car chase scene was glorious.”What the hell is a car cash?
It’s the follow up to Cash Cab, since nobody takes cabs anymore it’s just cars now
You’ve never heard of the Ben Bailey taxi game show?
This cover looks like it happened before Atom and Green Arrow pulled the same trick against Darkseid, based on the era of the art, but I can’t be sure…
Apparently this issue came out in September 1982, if that helps pinpoint things.
Yeah, I think Marvel had a 20-year jump on DC with this trick then, but I have to admit that Morrison’s version of it, where they penetrate Darkseid’s “impenetrable shield” via the Atom riding a photon thru it when GA’s flash arrow hits the shield and goes off, was pretty clever.
“via the Atom riding a photon thru it”Thinking about the science of this hurts my head. I’m not sure if it’s because I don’t know enough about physics, or too much
Yes — neither the Atom, Ant-man, nor anything having to do with Pym particles, “unstable molecules” or microverses lend themselves very well to knowing any actual science…
Shrinking or embiggening?
That issue is from 1982, so well before the Morrison JLA run and the Rock of Ages storyline you are referring to
By coincidence, I had this on my screen concurrently with the scene in which Kate draws the crayon version. It couldn’t have worked out any better.
Don’t tell Lucky what he can or cannot eat
Yelena is likely going to show up in time for Echo to make her face turn and help Clint.
“Does that make her the second confirmed Jewish character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, after Micro?”Considering the canonic uncertainty of the MCU Netflix shows, unfortunately she might be the ONLY confirmed Jewish character. I wanted to think that the Romanoff/Belova sisters are actually Russian Jews, but the Black Widow end credits scene implies that they’re Christian. There’s a bunch of saint cards/candles around the headstone.
“That’s definitely Wilson Fisk.”I agree that given the comic connection between Fisk and Maya, the fact that this is organized crime, that the man is in a nice suit, the rumors of D’Onofrio’s involvement and his cheekiness on social media about it, and Clint’s genuine warning of “the man at the head of this is legit scary” that it’s extremely likely to be Fisk. That said… alllll of that is circumstantial and I’d stop short of saying “definitely Fisk”, don’t create another Mephisto scenario.Also if it is Fisk prepare yourself for the chance it’s not D’Onofrio. Bringing characters like Fisk, Daredevil, Luke Cage etc… into the MCU proper is probably an inevitability, but it shouldn’t be a foregone conclusion that they won’t be entirely new actors and entirely new interpretations.
I mean, it was never expressly stated, but I think it was meant to be assumed that Dr. Abraham Erskine was Jewish.
I mean, it was never expressly stated, but I think it was meant to be assumed that Dr. Abraham Erskine was Jewish.
I don’t know anything about the dog, but since he’s got one eye he should be named Nick Furry.
I’m calling it now: It’s Jack or Kate’s dad. The Kingpin connections are a tease and too obvious.
Well Micro is only confirmed if Punisher series is in the MCU, because even if Daredevil gets introduced, it doesn’t mean say…Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist or Punisher are part of the MCU just yet…We shall wait and see. I can’t see them bringing Agent of SHIELD into the MCU because of the whole Inhuman stuff…
Since the shows started in, they have to be pushed out, & that hasn’t happened yet.
I think its safe to Agents of SHIELD has been pushed in, no talk of Inhumans, with even Ms. Marvel no longer being an In(Nu)human in her series.I’d say, thus far, the only one still in continuity is Agent Carter, with Jarvis’ appearance
That’s not pushing out. That’s just doing other things.Official statements push things out.
Irreconcilable contradictions push things out.
Just not addressing a plot point the way you want them to isn’t pushing things out.
Really don’t believe any of those shows will be “part of the MCU”. I think there will be MCU versions of the characters starring some of the same actors. Of course it all remains to be seen but I also think it’s the correct approach.
“I am also kind of enjoying the running dread of knowing that Yelena Belova will appear at some point but having no idea how.”Yea at this point I kind of don’t want her to. I’m not sure how they’ll fit her in
In the comics, Bucky is Jewish & I think there were hints that Steve Rogers is as well. I don’t think they are going to be overt about it because why would they. When they finally bring Kitty Pride into the MCU, she should count as well.
Steve is as Irish as they get. Did date a Jewish woman for awhile though in the 80s. Not up on the last ten years though.
James Buchanan and Steve Rogers are Jewish? I guess if the mothers are . .
You mean Yakov Buchalter and Shimon Rothstein?
And Magneto, of course.
Praise Travolta, it’s still Siede.
OK, I’ve asked this at Den of Geek, Sepinwall’s twitter and now here. Are we SURE that was Ronin who killed Maya’s dad? There’s another guy right there good with a sword too.
Now, I’m not sure if that’s a good thing, letting Clint off the hook like that, but I just throw it out there.
Also, can we acknowledge something about Renner’s portrayal of Hawkeye, and perhaps Renner in general. His main scene partners in the MCU include three beautiful women – ScarJo; Olsen; Hailee – significantly younger than him and he threads the needle pretty expertly between exasperation and encouragement; grumpy and supportive and not a hint of on-screen romantic interest. Add in Florence Pugh pretty soon and I think it’ll be four-for-four.
Clint is also very deeply in love with his age-appropriate (Cardellini is 46; Renner is 50) wife.
As for the big cameo… I still think it could be Jack or Brian D’Arcy and we shouldn’t get too terribly excited about Kingpin. (The two worlds thing really got me there for a second, though)
I generally haven’t been a fan of Hawkeye but I loved this episode so much.The fight scene in the gym I was legitimately impressed by Clint for the first time I can remember, but that car chase is one of my favorites ever. The POV inside the car giving us a wider look at the action was so well done.I’m not familiar with Echo but she’s pretty great so far. The way they set it up so you sympathize with her and her dad (Zahn McClarnon!) and then see later with Ronin already makes her a villain with more depth than most.The little bits with Kate pitching him the old school costume made me laugh. I thought this episode was a lot of fun!
This episode was basically Maya’s “I think this is my super villain origin”.
It’s her origin. Sympathetic enough to make her actions feel justified, but enough wiggle room for her to come back from when its time for her to get her own series. (Which she is.)
As soon as I saw the episode was titled ‘Echoes’ I assumed that was what we’d see.
Counterpoint: At least in regards to Clint, she is the Avenger here. Not like the Avenger’s are above killing in the MCU.
As much as I adored Echo, I am a little bit worried for the reasons mentioned in the review. They gave her such great motivation, but for me Marvel has a really bad track record in actually sticking with those nuanced characters so I’m worried where this story will lead.
I totally agree, but I do always try to be optimistic. I admit I’m probably on some kind of high because I did think this episode was some of my favorite Marvel.
And that’s a smarter approach to have than my hesitation. After all why not enjoy the ride as long as you can.
I totally get it, their track record is spotty.Looking forward to next week and a potential villain reveal!
I think, given that she’s getting her own series after this, that may be less of a concern.
Maybe TV will be different?
Gym? Defunct Kaybee Toys bro.
Can you really call some stand-in’s left hand a cameo?
I’m willing to believe Vincent D’Onofrio actually filmed that scene, he seems like the fun type of person who’d do that.
Love to know the day rate for a hand … uh, gig?
It’s ‘hand job’.
You know full well it’s ‘hand job’. 😀
Trying to keep it family-friendly!
I love you so much right now
He couldn’t be there himself, so he had it cut off, shipped to the set to be held by an offscreen extra, and the surgically reattached later. Guy’s dedicated to his craft.
It is later revealed to be Wilson Bohner.
C’mon man “Will Bohner” was right there.
Played by the ghost of Michael Clarke Duncan.
If “Uncle” doesn’t turn out to be Fisk, maybe he’ll be Kate’s dad?
This is the assumption I’m making. Because people tend to read way too much in to the MCU shows thus far so that kind of shoot the moon theory seems to ignore that this episode focused on family, with Kate mentioning her own dad.I also forgive Jack because after last week I was certain he’s a bad guy. But if they’re having him confront Kate/Clint this early, odds are pretty good he’s working for some group or another on the other side and it’s mom and dad that Kate needs to worry about.Kate’s dad used New York to go in to hiding. Mom is likely riding on his coattails, which is why Armand was killed after threatening her.Also, Kate’s dad being “Uncle” would also set-up some backstory. He goes in to hiding after New York, which allows Fisk to consolidate power in the aftermath and start his own rise. (Which I believe was hinted at in Daredevil)
The shot of that Christmas tree lot Santa re-inflating is impeccably timed.
That whole scene got a number of laughs out of me.“Use the putty arrow on the tires.” “I’ll get right on that once you put a label on these.”
“Hey look, we’re communicating!”“There are four arrows more dangerous than THAT?”
Also the post-scene with them on the subway was also great. Just a well timed sequence with regard to dialog and set-up/pay-off.
I don’t even care if they ignore the Netflix show canon, just wave their hands and say “multiverse,” whatever, they just need to keep (most of) the actors. Which if this is Kingpin it needs to be d’Onofrio.
I bet that’s what they’ll do. Sort of a soft-reboot sort of thing. I just need more Daredevil in my life.
It would be fairly simple to not contradict what came before, even if they don’t directly refer to it again.
This could also work. The Incredible Hulk method.Although this Fisk seems a lot more small-time than he did in Daredevil.
Well, the flashback is 2007, when he was still very small-time, & the present day is 2024, when he’d be trying to rebuild power without gaining attention.
Very good point
Best option. It’s clear that even the villains returning for NWH are not the same as in their respective movies, even though they are played by the same actors. So using the actors and the general backstory, but making MCU-specific tweaks, seems to be the route they’re taking.
They’ve already brought back JK Simmons as Jameson. Whether they explain it or not, I think D’Onofrio’s performance is too good to recast.
When McClarnon showed up I gave out a whoop! Love this guy. So good in Westworld.Also dug the (happy coincidence) of having a Car Chase with two classic 70’s car-chase-cars. Great episode.Anyone else wondering how good Vera Farmiga is with a sword?
I was so happy to see him, combined with the sad realization he was about to be offed.I am wondering a lot about Farmiga and her blood red turtlenecks.
Fingers crossed when Echo gets her own show, he’ll get a few flashbacks.
She was a vampire in the comics, and Blade is coming. The MCU has to introduce vampires at some point. Though I highly doubt it will be in this series. Her dresses are very vampish though, and I was shocked they introduced Kang in the last episode of Loki, so… maybe?
Yeah, it’s hard to tell if it’s just a very, very subtle nod to the comics or if they really intend to go full vampire with her. Maybe they won’t during this show but are setting her up for when Blade comes around.
Yesss Zahn is so great in everything he pops up in. Which sadly tend to be relatively minor roles, but he always f*ckin’ kills it.
He’s great as as heavy in Fargo, and then his character in Reservation Dogs is the perfect antithesis of his tough bad guy parts. Just a great actor.
He was also great in Longmire, as the Rez sheriff that is constantly hilariously rude and shitty to Walt and Vic.
I didn’t recognise him as Hanzee at first, because he was so stonefaced in ‘Fargo’ that just seeing him giving a big old smile in this episode changed his look completely.
He’s great on Reservation Dogs. The ride along ep was stellar!
While I loved the car chase scene, I was also thrown off how chill Kate seemed to be about brutally killing someone. As there was no way in hell the driver of that van survived that kind of an explosion. What made it even weirder is that the rest of chase they went out of their way to show how no one died, even that weird shot after that car is hit by the giant arrow.I want to note that I don’t want Kate to be mopey or guilt-ridden, but it just feels like it would have been relatively easy to do that van explosion while also making it clear that she’s not a killer at this point. Just such a weird choice.
Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.
If watching The A-Team has taught me anything, it’s that people ALWAYS survive exploding car crashes!
They just needed a voice coming from the exploded van yelling, “What the hell, bro?” to show that no one had died.
I rewatched that sequence after reading this. It’s the pickup truck with the biggest Russian and Kazi in it that gets giant arrowed and they’re shown afterward, shaken but uninjured. There’s purple goo all over the windshield from an earlier trick arrow.
The following is pure speculation, just thought to throw it in here. I’m also not certain about this at all.
After this episode, I’m wondering if it’s actually Kate’s mom who murdered Armand. Not just because Jack is painted so suspiciously that he is literally twirling his mustache, but there’s just a lot of context. So in the first episode, when her dad died, the argument was about how cash-strapped they were, but now the mother’s running this huge security company? Additionally Vera Farmiga feels like far too recognizable a name/face to have in a role as minor as the mother so far.Having written all that, the moment I found myself wondering that possibility was this bizarre shot they did when Kate and Clint went to the mother’s appartment as literally as Kate is explaining how Armand was killed by a sword they show Clint looking at a pair of swords there. It was such a distracting shot that if it wasn’t meant as a ‘subtle’ hint, I have no idea why they did it.
I have no doubt mom is evil. The question is what dad’s relationship to that was. Because the last conversation he had with Kate was how the difference is what you do when an opportunity is presented.So that was either foreshadowing *him* taking advantage of the chaos in New York to fake his death, or her mom using the chaos in New York to cover for murdering him.Or, possibly, he faked his death to help the family in a way that would still allow him to do his work.
What do you bet the mom is one of two opposed big bads (the other being Wilson Fisk)? The mom in the comics was a baddie.
I think you’re 100% right about Kate’s mom having killed Armand and likely being a bigger villanous player. I think in the comics her mom has ties to Madam Masque and it feels like the series is setting her mom up to be a character like that. I also suspect we’re going to learn about some shenanigans regarding the death or supposed death of Kate’s dad and Eleanor’s role in that. It’s odd that we didn’t see the death nor get any details regarding it, just Eleanor’s word.
In the comics her dad was the successful one that turned out to be a criminal working for Madam Masque, while her mom was presumed dead. Her mom then showed back up and was revealed to have been turned into a vampire, who was also working for Madam Masque in exchange for a cure to her vamparism. Comics, man.
I get the impression they are gonna have her mom fill a Madam Masque type role in the story.
Well they are bringing in Blade, so it could still go this way! Gender-swapped, of course.
Damn, I didn’t even think on the obscurity of the father’s death. Excellent observation.
It’s the ole TV/film adage: if you didn’t see a character die on screen they ain’t dead and will show up later. I’m just not sure in what capacity he’s going to return in. Kate’s parents are both villain’s in the comics, though the roles are reversed. It’s her mother who was presumed dead and then appeared much later in the comics. Oddly, both were working for the same big bad, Madame Masque, but for different reasons. Eleanor was turned into a vampire after she was left for dead. Vampires are coming to the MCU with Blade on the horizon. I just don’t know if they’d go there in this show.
Chekhov’s Lack of Corpse.
We saw the funeral. Presumably somebody saw a body at some point in the preparation process for that.
Yeah, I also thought the dad’s death was kind of hinky. Like Caroline said in the first review, it would be kind of odd to bring in Brian D’Arcy James for just, like, three minutes of work. I’m hoping for some flashbacks, or a dramatic reveal, or something.
Who the fuck is Brian James D’Arcy? I mean obviously you guys know but the way you folks talk about him it’s like he’s as famous as Brad Pitt or something. I literally don’t recognize him from anything ever without looking him up
He’s pretty famous on Broadway. He’s opened a few shows … oh, if you saw that John Oliver episode where he’s talking about SLAPP suits, and at the end does the big huge musical number, he’s the fake lawyer. Don’t … watch that at work, lol.
Okay but that doesn’t really justify the way people are talking about him.
I didn’t realize I had to justify the way I was talking about someone that I and, again, the reviewer, am pretty familiar with. He’s had an almost thirty-year career on Broadway. Just because you don’t know who is doesn’t make him an unknown. I’m sure you have niche (if you can call the giant umbrella of musical theater “niche”) interests with well-known figures that I’ve never heard of.
There were multiple posts claiming that he’s such a famous actor that he would never be wasted in a minor role. Clearly he’s not that famous
To you. He’s not that famous to you. The definition of famous is “known about by many people.” You happen to not be one of those people; that doesn’t make him not famous. I don’t know who Zahn McClarnon is because I haven’t seen the shows he’s in, but obviously the reviewer and a lot of people in the comments do, so he would still qualify as famous.You’re clearly spoiling for an endless, repetitive argument, though, so enjoy your stubborn ignorance.
You made multiple comments implying that the dude is some kind of household name. Obviously he’s not
There was some moment in the first/second episode where I’m like “She’s totally the baddie, right?”
In fairness, Kate is surprised by all the swords being used as decorations when she comes home in the first episode. Her mothers response that Jack is responsible for the changes in decor (tied in with his fencing proficiency) definitely links the items to him rather than her.Although I guess she could have still used a sword to kill Armand, I’m gonna assume she was smart enough not to just take any old one from her own home though!
Having written all that, the moment I found myself wondering that possibility was this bizarre shot they did when Kate and Clint went to the mother’s appartment as literally as Kate is explaining how Armand was killed by a sword they show Clint looking at a pair of swords there. It was such a distracting shot that if it wasn’t meant as a ‘subtle’ hint, I have no idea why they did it.Being that all the swords are Jack’s, an Eleanor is clearly a bad guy, I’m expecting she killed Armond with one of Jack’s swords and is potentially framing Jack for Armond’s murder. Swordsman has always had some anti-hero tendencies in the comics, helping out the Avengers at times. Not to mention, the MCU isn’t slavish to the comics and has made villains into heroes already. I expect they’re going to do the same with Jack. Particularly considering the episode ended with Jack getting the drop on Clint.
You don’t hire Vera Farmiga to just stand there. She’s up to SOMETHING.
So, the odds of Clint getting killed or taken out of action just went up a bit, yeah? Barring new information that’s a hell of a debt on his ledger with Maya’s dad. And considering that Yelena is still in the wind and after his ass, I’m not sure he’s going to be able to get away with two “Don’t Choose Vengeance” lectures.
“uncle’s” chuckle when he squeezed young maya’s cheek sounded so much like vincent d’onofrio…
One thought…is it possible “Uncle” was Draykov and he viewed Maya as a potential Red Room candidate?That could be a tie-in that gets to Yelena showing up. Since they’re giving Maya a sympathetic backstory, Yelena (or Val) may already know Clint was Ronin and they’re manipulating Maya with that info for a shared goal (killing Clint).
I thought this was going to be 2 episodes a week after last week’s double, I was very disappointed when it wasn’t.My immediate thought on the uncle was Kate’s dad, surely Brian D’Arcy James will be coming back.
I wouldn’t be surprised if -1. the “uncle” is Kingpin2. Kingpin is Brian D’Arcy JamesPeople are just assuming that when Kingpin makes his way back to the MCU it will be D’Onofrio again and while that would be cool I think retaining a character’s actor across what are essentially different franchises would be a pretty huge swing.
Maybe but the main reason people are assuming its Kingpin (minus the white suit) is that he sounded exactly like D’Onofrio.
You know how people almost burned the Internet down because they made the sixth-male lead in X-Men Days of Future Past into an erection joke?
Cast someone else as Kingpin and it’s 10 times worse.
We’re assuming D’Onofrio because the guy looked & sounded like D’Onofrio.
I’ve met Brian D’Arcy James. That could totally have been him. (also he’s super nice!)ETA that based on other comment threads, I seem to be the only one who doesn’t wholeheartedly believe that was D’Onofrio. 🤷🏻♀️
Yeah, the chuckle was so close that I’m sure it was either VDO or someone doing a world-class impression of him. And, sure, a lot of people have big hands, but the hand looked just right as well.
Jk Simmons would like a word.
Given the strooooooong indications that Daredevil is going to be entering the MCU, it sure makes sense to incorporate Kingpin as well.
Reentering.
Fat man autoparts, not so subtle.
Yeah, I thought that too — but do you think Kingpin actually lets people call him “fat man”…?
Doubtful, but it depends on the person. Fisk is an interesting character, and there are some people that he really respects, so maybe I guess.
Step 1: Brutally kill anyone who calls you “Fat Man” and make sure everyone in the underworld and law enforcement knows it.
Step 2: Name all your laundering operations “Fat Man”
Step 3: PROFIT!
He operates through shell companies that can’t be easily traced back to him. He’d be fine with basically any name on the place other than his own.
Not only did KB Toys not take up entire buildings, it would’ve been
completely stripped of all inventory & converted to other usage by
now. Sorry, this is where the MCU irreparably diverges from our reality.
If the Ronin sword blade retracts into its handle for portability like
Taskmaster’s, why did Clint carry it with a full scabbard?
I like where you decide to draw the lines, in a universe where all the rest of the stuff in the episode flies…
I hate being this nitpicky, but I couldn’t also help but wonder why there were rides and a fully-stocked ball pit inside an apparently decrepit old KB Toys? Maybe New York City KB Toys was fancier? I also came to the solid conclusion that the Tracksuit Mafia obviously restocked that ball pit.
Fuck it, I’m assuming that the coin-op rides were gone and the ball pit empty, but that the Tracksuit Mafia decided to turn their evil lair into a Chuck E. Cheese/Evil Lair combo.
Minus the Chuck E. Cheese food. Even career criminals have standards.
I mean… can you blame them?
Everyone who worked at that KB blipped, so clearing it out was a legal gray area. Boom solved.
Could the stuff in the auction be…fake??Or maybe it was an alternate model for when he needed to be a bit more concealed?
That eight-minute opener was lovely. I got a little choked up.
That episode was definitely an A for me. Everything just clicked: the action scenes, the comedy, the dramatic scenes, the acting in general… By the time the credits were rolling, I was convinced that 6 episodes of this duo wouldn’t be enough. Bishop and Barton might be different from their comic counterparts but the pairing just works still.
I hope the big man does turn out to be Kingpin, since they’re already connected in the comics — but you’d think they would’ve given him a white suit-sleeve instead of black, then…Also, is Maya physically handicapped in the comics too, in addition to her deafness? If so, I totally missed that in the books, which I didn’t follow that closely. I knew she was deaf, and I thought in her original incarnation, that she had a metahuman ability to “Echo” fighting styles, sort of like Taskmaster. But maybe that was a previous version or something.
Jeremy Renner is really doing well in this series — the characterization for not just him but the supporting roles, and the way the plot keeps swinging, is amongst the best Marvel has done for TV so far.
So far as I can tell she is not an amputee in the comics. That was likely added due to actress that was cast.
I hope the big man does turn out to be Kingpin, since they’re already connected in the comics — but you’d think they would’ve given him a white suit-sleeve instead of black, then…
Worth noting (Not that I expect it to be officially canon), but Fisk mostly wore black when he first showed up in the Netflix series.
fair point.
I think I didn’t notice because I was just biding my time, waiting for the episode where they eventually put him in the white suit.
If all this leads to a Rennersaince, I’ll be very happy. Time for him to come out of the penalty box.
Cox is an amputee in real life. That wasn’t CGI or anything. Oh, and Fisk almost always wore a black shirt and black suit jacket in the Netflix show, which points to it being him even more so.
Yes, it was obviously real on the actress — I was asking about the character.
Sorry, I just found that to be a weird question given that it was so high profile that Marvel was auditioning for only indigenous Deaf women. That’s basically .0001% of the population. If the requirement, set by the comic character, was that they also have to be an actual amputee, then you’d run out of zeros in that casting percentage.
Loving the show but the goofy Ant Man caper-esque soundtrack just takes me out of it sometimes, would’ve liked a noir/ lounge jazz sound
I’ll admit.It was me.Sure, sure, sounds impossible. I thought so too, but I got a call a few months back. Apparently they’ve gone through so many actors they’re just randomly calling numbers and hoping they haven’t already cast you.I get written out after a giant plot contrivance explodes, so I don’t really care about getting the part back. Plus, I hear DC’s starting to look into casting by ZIP code.
I enjoyed that they used ASL to slip Maya’s “what the FUCK are you doing here?” under the radar
I mean… Watching Maya cradle her dying father is a pretty brutal image if the show plans to give Clint full redemption by the end…. why? For killing criminals like all of the Avengers, SHIELD, and Hawkeye and Widow had been doing for decades? Yes, the Avengers and SHIELD were usually more tactical and/or targeted — but they still went after criminals and spies outside of the law… hell, that’s what we found out Budapest was!
Yeah, but you’re forgetting that accountability – both literal and spiritual – is inversely related to how awesome your superpowers are.The show’s been doing a lot of clever work linking everything back to Clint’s low-tier status, sometimes if only allegorically or through imagery. But that one core unstated principle is pretty toxic, and I’m not sure they’re going to be able to get away from it. They just did a shitload of work to humanize the woman looking for revenge against Ronin, but they pretty clearly suggested earlier that Ronin only went after the worst of the worst. The easy “out” is that Ronin didn’t kill this particular guy, but failing that, I think we’re going to see some rather unfair dogpiling.Try to imagine Thor or Stark (you know, assuming he wasn’t dead, and actually managed to hang on to his suit for longer than five minutes) seriously reckoning with having killed somebody’s dad, when said dad was a seriously bad dude neck-deep in organized crime. We’d get some truly incredible non-apology-apologies to prevent us from thinking that our heroes are totally heartless, but this shit would be sorted one way or the other very quickly, both emotionally and logistically.Clint has to really suffer through it because his powers aren’t cool enough.
To be fair, Stark’s self guilt trip only led to him working with the UN to form the Accords, leading to the breakup of the Avengers, leaving them vulnerable for Thanos.
We did. It was called Civil War. Stark killed Zemo’s family, as well as that one black kid doing Peace Corp in Sokovia.
Oh, and it was also called Age of Ultron – Stark killed Mommy and Daddy Maximoff, and thus we got villainous Wanda and Pietro for the first half of the movie. They never would have volunteers for Hydra’s Mind Stone studies if a Stark bomb hadn’t crashed through their window.
Well, we soooooooooort of saw that in Iron Man 2 with Stark grappling with the legacy of his father and Vanko’s father, who blamed Howard for his father’s death and loss of status. Tony, of course, took it as a chance to reflect on his own daddy issues as I recall… :pAlso, I think that Clint wants absolution for what he did and feels guilty about it — but that’s very, very different than needing redemption for it.
For all of Tony’s flaws – a few of which they renewed/reinforced in IM2 in defiance of the arc they just showed in IM1 – “sins of the father” in the western world is a pretty good way to rig the deck in favor of the son who gets targeted for revenge.While Vanko’s desire for violent revenge resonated emotionally, the writers plopped his big breakout moment down at exactly the worst time, in terms of it feeling like a legitimate last resort against an immovable object that just would not ever change or grow or admit to a mistake. The entirety of Iron Man 1 was “the immovable object finally moves.”
Try to imagine Thor or Stark (you know, assuming he wasn’t dead, and actually managed to hang on to his suit for longer than five minutes) seriously reckoning with having killed somebody’s dad, when said dad was a seriously bad dude neck-deep in organized crime.I feel like Marvel sort of danced around this idea of “hey, you guys know you actually kill innocents, right?” in Civil War. There’s the incident with Wanda in Lagos, and Tony’s Big Brooding over the volunteer kid who died in Sokovia. It devolved into the Tony and Steve Show pretty quickly, but I feel like they’ve said all they want to say about how the various Avengers feel about all of the death on their hands, and I’m not sure you can break it down by powers. I’m not sure. The more I think about this, the more directions my thoughts go in, and on reread, I’m not sure I actually disagree with your statement like I thought I did, ha.
Well, the big problem with all of these examples being cited in replies to my comment is that they’re overwhelmingly about innocent people getting caught in the crossfire.That’s a major distinction.
Nah, accountability is based on whether your victims had sympathetic loved ones. If they never showed Maya’s grief, no one would give a fuck about who Ronin killed.
Fingers crossed they make echo a complex villain, who’s dad may have been a great father was a genuinely corrupt guy and worthy of being killed in connection to whatever Kingpin does. I think she’s getting her own show so I could see her grappling with all of this and it being pretty interesting if they do it right.
I mean, I hope so too, if only because I’d rather it be a good show than a bad show. I don’t generally hope for shows to be bad. I hope for bad shows to fail, sure. That’s different.
The problem I’m facing is what I’ve got in front of me right now, in this show. My general stance right now is that there’s a distinction between “complex person who is also a villain” and “complex villain.”Right now, Echo’s got potential to be the former, but the latter? That’s gonna be tough. I think they’re going to have to twist and fakeout quite a bit to get us there.Twist 1: Ronin didn’t kill her dad.Twist 2: Her dad wasn’t that bad.Twist 3: Somebody else came along and seriously mindfucked her into believing that leading a pathetic street gang was somehow a productive choice.Even as I type that out, Twist 3 starts to put a real strain on just how much respect I’m going to be able to hold for Echo as a person. Worse, we’re being shown/told that she’s really smart. It’s always a ballsy move to focus on a villain who’s legitimately dumb, and to treat that character flaw with the consistency and respect it deserves.Then you’ve got your classic smart character who gets hit with the Stupid Stick because heaven forbid anything else about the story templates budge.
I’m mostly in agreement here, but I just hope they go the direction where they make her bad, but are invested enough in whatever her arc ends up being that we still care about her. I enjoyed the opening sequence of her childhood, but there is plenty of room for her and her dad to be really bad people, while still making us care. It would be very lame and not out of character for marvel to pull the rug out from under us, but I’m hoping they double down on her being a justified bad guy.
There’s something to this, but remember, even Rhodey and Natasha, no stranger to death and war, were like, “This is fucked up” in Endgame.
There’s something to this, but remember, even Rhodey and Natasha, no stranger to death and war, were like, “This is fucked up” in Endgame.
* I know that he is likely to show up in flashbacks in Echo’s own show, but I was very annoyed to see Zach McClarnan — brilliant in Fargo, West World and Reservation Dogs — dead two minutes after he was introduced. His scenes did pack the required emotional punch, but I would have loved for him to have a bigger, more permanent role in the MCU.* I am out of superlatives for Hailee Stenfeld, her comic timing, empathy and physical authority are just top notch. I did love that conversation about Imagine Dragons, and how Stenfeld delivered hilarious dialogue and dramatic intention (establishing rapport with an enemy and impressing Clint by doing so).* The scene where Clint has to pretend he can hear his son on the phone is officially the moment I can finally say I unconditionally love this version of Hawkeye. I’ve never felt that warm, kind, vulnerable characters were Renner’s forte, but he was the emotional center of this episode. And he still looks really cool swinging a bow around his body without looking.* Alaqua Cox is an exciting action performer. It’s clear that and her natural charisma convinced Marvel that she could carry a show. Can’t wait to see her teamed up with Charlie (no relation) Cox.* I don’t think Clint killed Echo’s Dad, largely because I think given Zach McClarnan’s sympathetic performance, the killer has to get a comeuppance and I don’t Marvel wants Clint dead. Since anyone could be Ronin, the leading suspects are Kazi, Jack and Kate’s Mom.
I saw True Grit when it was in theaters, and I’ve been a Hailee Steinfeld fan ever since. Holding your own in scenes with Jeff Bridges, Josh Brolin, and Stephen freakin’ Root at 14 years old? That young lady is going places, I told myself.And she fits the MCU like a glove. I never read the Aja/Fraction Hawkeye run (although I did buy the issue told from the perspective of Pizza Dog!) but thanks to Hailee, I am ready to greenlight seven seasons of Kate Bishop Does Absolutely Anything.
She totally elevates Edge of 17 from being a run of the mill “coming of age” movie. She’s really great on this show and I hope she has a bigger future in the MCU.
Young Avengers.
* I don’t think Clint killed Echo’s Dad, largely because I think given Zach
McClarnan’s sympathetic performance, the killer has to get a
comeuppance and I don’t Marvel wants Clint dead. Since anyone could be
Ronin, the leading suspects are Kazi, Jack and Kate’s Mom.This sort of gets at my issue with the episode. Not because I think there was a second Ronin (Clint’s familiarity with the Tracksuits would be a heck of a coincidence), but the sympathetic framing of Maya and her father seems difficult to reconcile with how Clint’s Ronin phase has been portrayed.Like, flip the scenario, frame Maya as a child of one of the gang members we saw Clint as Ronin kill in Endgame, and then post-Blip, she’s running the gang. The way the MCU has treated Ronin is that the murder spree was out of character but essentially righteous. And I just don’t think you can easily square that with a sympathetic portrayal of Maya deciding as an adult that the best way to get revenge for her father’s murder was to get involved with whatever it was that got him killed.(the weird note with the flashback is that none of the people killed appear to be Eastern European or are necessarily wearing tracksuits, though all are wearing at least tracksuit-compatible tops? so again, not conclusively the same but incredibly coincidental if not)
But this really hits on my hesitation on the show as well in how it will deal with Clint’s actions as Ronin. When you are just blindly killing criminals, you will inherently leave behind those grieving as those criminals have children, friends and loved ones. So if they pull some reveal how it actually wasn’t Clint, which I can easily Marvel doing, it would also be a pretty cowardly way of dealing with that phase by Clint.
That’s the one flashing red light on this show is how well they thread this needle. They are going to have to accomplish some kind of ending that
1) Gives Clint redempetion/closure – He doesn’t necessarily have to survive this process. A sense of peace while dying works.2) Not cheating by revealing that Maya’s dad was a ruthless and brutal hitman who certainly loved his deaf daughter, but still sorta had it coming
3) Not ruining the bad-ass start to the Echo character by having her forgiveness arc not feel earned
4) Giving us some reason to root for Echo in her own show (Not that she has to be a hero – Punisher taught us that – but it’s going to be hard to get there if she kills Clint and makes his kids orphans and his wife a widow)
My worry is that there will be some kind of, “OK, Clint didn’t kill this particular guy, but he still inspired copycats or gave guys like Jack/Eleanor/D’Arcy/whoever the cover to use Ronin to do their own dirty work and therefore is still somewhat responsible” thing.
2) If Maya’s dad works for who we think he works for….and is close enough to said guy that is daughter calls him “Uncle” chances are Maya’s dad is not a good guy.
It’s the 21st century. Kids are only orphans if both parents are gone and it’s been that way since a good chunk of the 20th Century ago, post WWII at least.
I don’t see them doing this, based on how they’ve handled the show so far. Having Clint confront the fact that he robbed someone of their father, and have Kate come to terms with her idol basically being responsible for recreating her worst trauma in someone else is too much fertile dramatic ground to pass up.So fingers crossed.
(the weird note with the flashback is that none of the people killed appear to be Eastern European or are necessarily wearing tracksuits, though all are wearing at least tracksuit-compatible tops? so again, not conclusively the same but incredibly coincidental if not)
The tracksuit gang is diverse, though the show makes a point of having the main members with speaking parts (outside of Maya and Kazi) be East European to stick close to the comics.It’s definitely a weird balancing act that the MCU is trying to play with Ronin’s murderous rampage. I wouldn’t say fully Marvel endorses his actions —Natasha and Rhodey’s exchange implies they know its wrong and somebody has to stop him. It’s also clear that Clint is burdened by these acts. At the same time his victims in Endgame are treated like action movie fodder — the kind of people James Bond or Rambo rip through without much reflection.I still question whether Clint could kill Maya’s dad without creating repercussions that mean his death or imprisonment. Not saying Clint should go unpunished, but its a conundrum when the show — a light hearted comedy— sets up Clint and his family in such a sympathetic way.
At the same time his victims in Endgame are treated like action movie fodder — the kind of people James Bond or Rambo rip through without much reflection.It’s one scene and the final person he kills points out that Clint is an abject murderer, which he clearly agrees with. Clint thinks he deserves to die for what he’s done, which is plenty of reflection. That burden is still carried over to this series. It’s actually the most consistent characterization carried from the films to a TV show. There’s so many scenes in Endgame, and so many characters, but if you just isolate Clint’s scenes he’s an emotionally broken and tired character. — a light hearted comedy— You’re definition of “light hearted comedy” significantly differs from the actual definition of it.
Clint thinks he deserves to die for what he’s done, which is plenty of reflection.
I’ve never said Clint wasn’t haunted and regretful of what he has done. I’m pointing out that Marvel doesn’t frame those scenes in a way that makes the audience is concerned about the suffering of the victims. When US Agent murders a man with Cap’s shield we feel it, because we are meant to.You’re definition of “light hearted comedy” significantly differs from the actual definition of it.
Jesus Christ Bro’. I wasn’t going for the academic definition of light comedy, but this show has Rogers the Musical, a bunch of cute kids at Christmas, a silly prank gone wrong, a LARPing scene, a one eyed dog that loves pizza, henchmen in tracksuits that call each other bro and buy their girlfriends Imagine Dragon concert tickets and prop humor in the form of a giant arrow. I mean, bro, c’mon bro.
I mean, bro, c’mon bro.LOL. Okay, you got me there. I personally find that the emotionally hefty scenes more than balance out the comedic elements as far as the overall tone.
(Aside: Kinja is abominable. You didn’t lose track of the thread. I made the mistake of replying to two of your posts in the same thread which basically splits the conversation do to the lack of threading. I now have to have two tabs open just to see both of your replies in the same conversation to try to bring it back to one thread. I can’t believe I long for the Disqus days.)I’ve never said Clint wasn’t haunted and regretful of what he has done. I’m pointing out that Marvel doesn’t frame those scenes in a way that makes the audience is concerned about the suffering of the victims. When US Agent murders a man with Cap’s shield we feel it, because we are meant to.The only scene we see of Clint murdering people (until this show, assuming it was Clint in the Ronin suit) was in Endgame and one of his victims calls him out on the hypocrisy of his acts. There’s just the reality of economy of scenes. Endgame had a million things to cover so, beyond Clint’s feelings of guilt, they weren’t going to do a deep dive into the implications of his acts. That’s what this show is now allowing them to do, with Maya as the embodiment of his victims. US Agent killing an already defeated opponent was felt because it showed he had lost all control of his emotions. Cap has killed countless people, and put his emotions first on occasion. That scene was a mirror of when Cap had the chance to kill Tony in CW and instead drove his shield into Tony’s arc reactor. Clint and Natasha, on the other hand, are presented as assassins with plenty of cold blooding killing in their pasts to begin with. I still question whether Clint could kill Maya’s dad without creating repercussions that mean his death or imprisonment. I expect that Maya will learn that she was being manipulated by Uncle, and possibly other characters, and spare Clint because he still has a family, leading to Clint’s retirement from the MCU. I do hope that they don’t pull some, that was a Ronin imposter that killed her dad BS though. I agree there has to be some kind of reckoning for Clint but, if they borrow from the comics, Maya is very, very far from having clean hands herself.
The way the MCU has treated Ronin is that the murder spree was out of character but essentially righteous. What? How was it shown to be “essentially righteous?” Rhodey calls out that he’s become abominable. Clint wants to die specifically for what he’s done and that all hangs over Clint’s characterization in this show. And I just don’t think you can easily square that with a sympathetic portrayal of Maya deciding as an adult that the best way to get revenge for her father’s murder was to get involved with whatever it was that got him killed.What are you talking about? Maya, didn’t stick with the gang to get revenge on Ronin. That was her world. She was already in the gang since childhood. She was, as an adult and obviously part of the gang, coming back to the safehouse when Ronin attacked. The only reason she diverted from her typical organized crime activities in the present was because the Ronin suit showed up in public again.
I’ve lost track of the comment thread so I’m not certain to what is referring directly to what I said, what I edited for clarity or what someone else said. I don’t think Maya being in the tracksuit gang is surprising, I think her motives are sympathetic and I’m not sure how the show can resolve this if Clint did murder her father in cold blood. I’m not sure the quote you are referencing was from me. My opinion is also that Clint is burdened by those deaths, but the MCU wants to hand wave the violence, and not just for a PG rating. We understand that Clint regrets those deaths and is bothered by them, but except for Maya’s father we never see or think about those victims again. We do, however, see the emotional pain of Clint regretting killing all of them. Because the MCU wants it to be about Clint and not the suffering of the many people he killed. Because it makes it easier to be sympathetic to Clint. They want Clint’s actions to create stakes but also be acceptable to viewers.
I’m not sure how the show can resolve this if Clint did murder her father in cold blood.The problem is, they haven’t established what her father did, or that he did it in cold blood. Just because he was a good father to Maya doesn’t mean he wasn’t a wicked man otherwise. And while murdering a murderer isn’t exactly right, it’s not something you require redemption or comeuppance for, which is what many people were saying. The only thing that is known is that he wasn’t murdering innocents during this spree.
And while murdering a murderer isn’t exactly right, it’s not something you require redemption or comeuppance for
I get what you mean, but that’s not the way it works irl or even in the Marvel universe. In the real world, you couldn’t go to a mafia bosses place of business and assassinate him, even if everyone knew that boss was responsible for many murders himself. In comics, The Punisher is a wanted fugitive. Even if some people would find it morally ok, its not legally ok.As for redemption, it seems to be something that Hawkeye is looking for. The people he killed were paid to be murderers, but as he acknowledged, so was he. And just like him some of them had families.But obviously, neither Clint’s regret or the law matter to Maya. My point about comeuppance is not just about the legal ramifications of Clints acts, its about her need for revenge. She wants to kill the guy who killed her Dad. I don’t think she was totally in the dark about the kind of man he was — she was a member of the criminal organization and seems perfectly capable of killing. I don’t think the fact her father was a murderer is going to change that. So if Clint really did kill him, I don’t see how she could walk away and let him live. That to me is the major conflict the show has to resolve.
I think the thing about him being ‘Ronin’ rather than Clint Barton, and the chaos that ensued with the snap and the the re-appearing (is there a name for that) makes the rules in regards to taking out members of the mob a bit different than they’d be irl though. And I think that’s the reason for his obsession over the whole Ronin thing- it was dead and buried, and he wanted it to stay that way.
Acknowledging that a fantasy movie is not real life, the rules didn’t really change. That’s why Rhodey and Natasha discussed stopping Clint’s rampage. That’s why his murders were being tracked. Yes, Clint went crazy because his family, as far as he knew, was dead. And yes, now he wants to put that behind him. But to me, while the MCU doesn’t want to delve too deeply into the ramifications of his acts, its also giving numerous signals that its not exactly excusable either.
Well the role for him could have been Michael Twoyoungmen but I doubt they will be doing Alpha Flight anytime soon. Could have been in a Dr Strange film though. They really should do that magicians bar. Can’t remember the name.
Red Wolf or American Eagle are possibilities right now imo. Shaman, Forge, Wyatt Wingfoot are possible too, but they are intertwined with franchises (X-men and FF) that haven’t been introduced to the MCU proper just yet.
He seems a little too old for those roles. But an older Michael Twoyoungmen (Shaman) having connections to the general MCU magic world outside of Alpha Flight makes sense to me.
It really depends what the MCU wants to do with the characters. Hank Pym and Janet Van Dyne aren’t old in the comics, Agatha Harkness has gray hair and is kind of heroic, Jimmy Woo is a super confident bad ass. Given that most of these indigenous characters are unfortunately minor and/or obscure, there is a reasonable chance that the MCU will take liberties with them (presuming they show up in the MCU).
I actually think Renner has been given more to do with Hawkeye starting with Ultron. He pep talk to Wanda in the midst of the Ultrons battle was stellar, emotionally, comedicly and supportively. Was a wonderful caring father figure and badass supremely trained human. I thoroughly enjoy Renner in this.
Renner definitely got to shine in Age of Ultron, but I still don’t feel the MCU films have been as good a showcase for him as they have been for Natasha. It’s just great to have this intensive exposure to multiple aspects of Clint — his humor, humanity and badass skills.
It’s no secret that Renner was not happy with his character in Avengers 1, where he spent most of the movie mind-controlled and had little interaction with the other Avengers. Whedon went out of his way to give him a lot more to do in A2 to make up for it – his family, the farm scenes, that conversation with Wanda/Pietro, etc.
If they are going to heed close to the comic books, it could be that Kingpin had Echo’s dad, etc., killed and framed Ronin for it. Discovering this is what turned her against Kingpin. But that’s a lot to cram into three more episodes.
Added together with resolving the mystery of Kate Bishop’s Dad and what her Mom and Jack are up to, as well as introduce Yelena, it all seems like a hell of a lot for three episodes.
Okay, straight up, here the thing that’s been bugging me about this show so far:
WHY THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE STILL USING FLIP PHONES IN THE 2020’s?!
It’s called the Hawk-eye-phone, okay? It’s like, retro. Or something.
Due to flexible screens, flip phones are back, baby:
https://www.samsung.com/us/smartphones/galaxy-z-flip3-5g/buy/galaxy-z-flip3-5g-128gb-unlocked-sm-f711uzkbxaa/
I have one and can emphatically say, it’s freaking awesome. Also: I love this show so much. Hailee Steinfeld continues to slay and I’ve never liked Jeremey Renner (or Hawkeye, for that matter) more.
It’s not people, it’s just him. It’s part of his whole “can’t be arsed” vibe.Chuck Schumer also has a flip phone.
I still use a flip phone. I hate touchscreens, I hate mobile apps, I hate paying for data, & the battery lasts significantly longer (3 days with heavy usage, 5-6 days with light usage).
It’s his burner.
It’s old like Clint.Plus it’s compact, sturdy and protects the screen when folded.
I thought we also saw him with a smart phone in Ep 1 or 2, I assumed the flip was a burner as it was the number he gave to Kate.
If you’re a politician, spy, or anyone dealing with classified information, using a smartphone would be the opposite of smart.
Anyone think of ARROW as this ep was going on? Only Season 1 and 2 were solid in my opinion.
Season 5 was a surprising return to form, but yeah other than that it could be a pretty awful show.
Are you from Earth 2? Because I have never heard that opinion! It wasn’t even true Green Arrow yet.
Those trick arrows were nice, but they still don’t beat Green Arrow’s boxing glove arrow.
If its not Kingpin, Marvel is really trolling us.
Maya’s uncle is Mephisto.
Except Mephisto in this universe is an out-of-work actor whose last name is Erection.
I really liked the first driving scene where the camera is just spinning around for the majority of it in one take (or a faked version of that kind of thing).I too liked the perfectly-timed wacky-waving-inflatible-Santa gag.
That spinning camera shot really caught my attention too. This episode really stepped up their game when it came to action scenes. It was literally cinema quality.
I agree. I was disappointed that it turned into bad CGI action, though that is typical for the MCU. But overall, I thought it was a real standout piece of action.
Loved this episode. The first two as well, but the overall pacing seems to be ramping up nicely. It will be interesting to see how they cover everything – tracksuit mafia war, Kate’s family thing, AND Yelena showing up (which I hope she does). And I missed the Wilson Fisk possibility – but that just means I should watch the episode again, which of course I’m willing to do.
Starting to think she might be a post-credit scene at the end of the season.
I don’t remember the last time I had this much fun watching a TV show, this episode was an A for me. Awesome action, creative direction, great emotional moments, funny moments, I really fucking loved this episode.
That car chase scene was excellent. The trick arrows, the cool camera tracking from the back seat of the car, everything was just thrilling to watch
My four cents:
– Great review! Caroline Siede actually nailed a lot of points that German Lussier missed or misunderstood in his one at io9, like, not every episode has to go heavy on lore, plot, or character building, sometimes it can do a bit of each and still be fun and entertaining. Or, while praising Zahn McClarnon’s acting, mentioning past works that are indeed great, but apparently forgetting his much more recent and equally great and relevant role in “Reservation Dogs”. And while analizing the great performances in the scene where Kate mediates the call from Nate to Clint, missing the important fact that Kate’s not just realizing Clint’s sadness and burden for missing his family, but also that it’s partially her fault. Therefore, it’s not just pity from her, but also guilty.- And while talking about that great scene… Wow! Jeremy Renner really impressed me there! I have never particularly paid attention to his acting chops, but the way he portrays the pain, sadness, and wearyness of Barton is top notch. It makes me really care and feel sad for the character.- I can’t stress enough how great is the play for inclusion and representation in this show! As a person with hearing loss, who uses hearing aids myself, it’s great to see Clint’s struggle and Maya’s deafness played well and with respect. Plus, Maya being played by Alaqua Cox, who is actually Native American, deaf, and an amputee, like the character!- Finally to everybody still in doubt that the “uncle” is The Kingpin, and that it will be played by Vincent D’Onofrio, bringing his version from the Netflix shows to the MCU: D’Onofrio tweeted this right around the time today’s “Hawkeye” episode was released on D+. It’s him in what seems to be the “Main Street”, not sure if in Disneyland or Disneyworld’s Magic Kingdom. Well played, Mr. D’Onofrio!
Another good episode. I still feel like Jeremy Renner is weirdly low-energy and that Hawkeye is the least interesting part of Hawkeye. Thankfully it has Hailee Steinfeld.
I am holding out hope for Crossfire!
One thing I’m really enjoying about the show is the way it’s nailing an element of the Matt Fraction run that a lot of people seem to be missing as an element of the comic. A big part of that era, especially as it goes on, is Hawkeye struggling with depression and how that struggle affects his mentorship of Kate. Now, main comic universe Clint is different from MCU Clint in a lot of ways, most notably in that he doesn’t have the loving family hiding out on the farm. But even though he’s not dealing with the same stuff, MCU Clint is still grappling with his own pain and trying to emotionally keep his head above water.It would have been all too easy for the show to have just been a light-hearted buddy-archer action-comedy in the vein of Lethal Weapon with vestigial nods to the comics they’re using for inspiration. But the people making the show (perhaps guided by Matt Fraction as a consulting producer) recognize that element of Clint and Kate’s journey and have adapted it into the show alongside Lucky the Pizza Dog and the Tracksuit Mafia. I enjoyed watching Clint and Kate bond in this episode, not just over the trick arrows but also the sequence with the phone call, and I think the episode works because it has both.
This show has been great all-around. Steinfeld was a home-run get – we all knew that when it was announced but she has absolutely delivered on the hype. And Renner is great as well. The action scenes are well-choreographed and shot (really liked the shot from inside the car as the Tracksuit Mafia was catching up to Kate and Clint) and the use of trick arrows in this episode was even more fun. And now it seems more than likely that Kingpin is in this too.It also is nice to see Marvel acknowledge all the terrible stuff Clint did as Ronin is, it adds to Endgame nicely.I thought WV was alright and TFATWS was pretty poorly executed but Loki was terrific and Hawkeye is shaping up to be an even better show than Loki was IMO.
Steinfeld won me over in ‘Dickinson’ by the end of the first scene.
“For the last 20 years my job has been to not be noticed”My man, that is some bullshit. Like I’m sure in his head Clint still thinks of himself as just a spy and I get that this scene is all about waving off the original blue and purple costume but since 2012, both in our world and in the MCU, he’s been one of the six most famous people on the planet.Agents of SHIELD opened up with people selling toys of the Avengers and this show started with Kate idolizing him, his family having their meal comped and GODDAMN BROADWAY MUSICAL WHERE SOMEONE IS PLAYING HIM.You’re not hiding in the shadows anymore you’re a friggin pop figure whether you want to be or not.
Loved the episode, but I wasn’t a fan of that long ASL conversation between Maya & Kasi keeping their hands out of frame. I thought we learned better than that after the Black Bolt fiasco of 2017?
Yes! I don’t even know much ASL, but I thought the camerawork on that whole conversation was so odd. Honestly, so much of the framing has blocked so much of the ASL, I’m not even sure why they bothered. (I mean, I get the story reasons, but I don’t understand why they’re half-assing it so much.)
Agreed, it was weird that they showed subtitles, but didn’t actually show what the subtitles were translating.
This was such a welcome change of pace compared to the previous episodes. They made the unfortunate decision to make Maya, a villain?, into a cooler, more bad ass, more sympathetic character than Kate Bishop. I was expecting Kate to be this fun to watch fight, and I maintain that
the title sequence is a LIE, at least for the time being. Maya similarly
lost her father at a young age, but she’s had a more challenging life
with multiple disabilities and the unenviable responsibility of whatever
it is she’s responsible for in this weirdly-uniformed criminal empire.
She overwhelms Hawkeye, who has continued to demonstrate why an unpowered archer is an Avenger. She’s amazing.
Clint rightfully calls out Kate’s unearned overconfidence, and as the episode went on, I realized that she’s meant to be far from a smart, competent hero in her own right, title sequence be damned. She’s a fuck up. A troublemaker responsible for causing all of her own problems and forcing other people to deal with it. She’s Scrappy Doo.Unlike Scrappy, she’s a capable fighter and a top archer, so she’s not completely useless. I started to like her a lot more when she was helping a de-hearing aided Clint talk to his son. He’s starting to respect her, and me with him, when we finally get to see some real humanity to the character and not just the blind stumbling from before. For now, she’s a sidekick, a work in progress whose best qualities are starting to surface. It would’ve been nice if we got to this point by the end of the first episode, indulgences like Rogers: The Musical and the LARPer thief weren’t really worth the time we spent on them, but hopefully the rest of the episodes are as fun as this one.It would be a missed opportunity if Clint wasn’t exposed as the Ronin, at least to Maya. I’m expecting her to learn the truth, but she’s going to not act on it because she learns about her father’s bad deeds and/or something pushes her to change sides. It’s a big arc to tell in a short amount of time, but I’m cautiously optimistic.
I agree it’s always nice if they could get to the good stuff faster and trim the fat, but the way this episode was perfection so I can’t really complain too much. The second episode was definitely coasting and it seems like they could’ve come up with something a little more interesting, but clearly it was all leading to here.
Hailee Steinfeld is very likable, but Kate Bishop, the character, is not very likable imho. I’m not sure how intentional this is and this has been my main conundrum with this series so far.
“If “Uncle” doesn’t turn out to be Fisk, maybe he’ll be Kate’s dad?”This would be an amazing fakeout. “I’m currently unsure if his connection to Maya is supposed to be flirtatious, familial, or just boss/underling.”I’m going with all of the above.“I hope he’s got a dongle arrow to make this useful.”I could not figure out what she was saying here until I turned on the subtitles. Great line though.Today I learned the things on Hawkeye’s classic mask are wings.
Is the “cameo” in the title referring to the Kingpin, who is never even seen in this episode?
Between this and Reservation Dogs, Zahn McClarnon is having a hell of a year!Yes. He is so awesome as the Tribal cop it kind of made the show for me every time he was on screen. Especially “his” episode of course. Do we think we’ll ever see “killer dear feet lady” again?
I don’t know who on their set handled the deaf cultural issues, but they nailed them and it was really welcome to have them presented in a mass-appeal superhero show.
(The next time you watch a “heartwarming” video of a kid reacting to cochlear implants, know that there’s a lot of deaf people who view that as the hearing world permanently deciding things for a deaf person too young to consent to it.)
How the deaf and hearing worlds relate is a complicated issue, far beyond what I’d want Hawkeye to get into, but it was great for the show to at least say “hey, folks, FYI, none of this is as simple as a tearjerker Marlee Matlin movie might make you think.”
(Also, it explains why Clint does the “more” sign backwards — he’s new to this and ASL’s not something he’s 100% sure he needs to learn.)
I’m a hearing person, so I don’t say this from any personal experience, but I liked that Maya couldn’t pick up everything from lip reading. It’s so often portrayed in media as some kind of deaf superpower, whereas the reality (I’ve heard) is that it’s only partially effective.
Yeah, that was well done, especially times where she thought a word was being said where we, as the hearing audience, knew that free-floating word was probably something else and her brain was just guessing.
Unless Marvel is trolling us hardcore, that has to be D’Onofrio chuckling. I wasn’t expecting a cameo, but the sound was instantly recognisable.
Went into this show with no expectations. Super pleased! This is fun!And that editing on the recovery of the wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube santa was *golden* rofl…
Am i the first person to address the fact that Jack is putting off MAJOR Ray fucking Purchase vibes? Surely not. I mean, he is.
That better be Fisk