Last week, I guested on the popular Earwolf series How Did This Get Played, a weekly comedy podcast dedicated to reviewing the worst and weirdest video games. The show’s hosts, Nick Wiger and Heather Anne Campbell, and I know each other through the Los Angeles comedy community, and their producer, Matt Apodaca, is someone whom I’ve performed many shows with and consider a friend. As a comedy writer (I’ve written on shows for Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, and a bunch of other places) and as a hardcore gamer (I once faked pneumonia for a month in middle school so I could focus on beating Chrono Trigger for the Super Nintendo), this seemed like a match made in heaven. But when I received the email invitation, my face dropped.
Native American people are so poorly represented in the media that we’re referred to as an “invisible minority,” and Nick, Heather, and Matt wanted me, as the first and only Native person invited on How Did This Get Played, to review Custer’s Revenge—an old Atari game where the player, as the ghost of General Custer, rapes a Native American woman for points—for a special Thanksgiving episode. I had two options in responding to this ill-conceived invitation. I could say no, and kick the can down the road for the next unsuspecting Native guest, passing on a legacy of microaggressions for future Native comedians to deal with from here to eternity. Or I could go on the show and risk my career.
There are few things I’d like to do less then navigate the minefield of a conversation about race in 2019. Especially with comedians who, kind though they may be, are more experienced and connected, in an industry where jobs are largely given to friends and being labeled “hard to work with” can be game over. I’ve invested 20 years of my life into this trade, and I’m one of only a few dozen Native American comedians in the country. The Natives who are regularly asked to guest on popular comedy podcasts can be counted on less than a single hand. If I didn’t approach this conversation exactly right, I could be destroying a small, but crucial keyhole that we have into mainstream media.
The easy and all too common thing to do when confronted with this type of racial misstep would be to screencap the invitation, post it on Twitter, and bathe myself in internet mob justice like hot shower water on a cold morning. The hard thing to do would be to calmly educate Nick, Heather, Matt, and their listeners about why what they did was wrong. The first option is tempting, but dunking on people won’t change their minds. The second option, to have a serious dialogue, is harder than beating Brock Lesnar at WrestleMania with my hands tied behind my back. Would Nick and Heather even engage in this difficult conversation or would they brush if off like the millions of internet commenters who treat even the smallest amount of criticism like Dracula treats garlic? I had one shot at this, and if I wanted the conversation to be anything less than a total disaster, I had to thread a needle the size of an anthill with a piece of thread thicker than the Golden Gate Bridge.
As a 5-foot, 10-inch comedian built like a piece of dried discount spaghetti, I’m not a confident person. Confrontation of any kind gives me a full-body migraine. One of my greatest fears is the uncomfortable fallout after misremembering an acquaintances’ name. If I confronted a bunch of successful comedians, on microphone, about their astronomical racial blind spot, I needed to come prepared. The six days between accepting the invitation and the recording was like a week-long Rocky montage, if instead of running up the steps of a courthouse, Rocky just argued with himself in his car.
I wasn’t excited about blindsiding them with a conversation they’d earned, but weren’t expecting. Heather and Nick are both well-meaning people and though we aren’t close, they were some of my first sketch-comedy writing teachers when I first moved to Los Angeles and were influential in helping shape my early comedic voice. Two days before recording, I emailed to tell them that I was bringing a serious discussion about Native American representation to their show, which they said they were ready for. Based on the enthusiasm of their response, I knew they had no clue the gravity of what they’d done, or the metric ton of lessons I was about to shovel their way.
On podcast day, I was a mess of adrenaline and righteous fury. An hour before the show, I listened to the entrance music from my favorite All Elite Wrestling tag team, Proud And Powerful, as I put on my favorite button-up shirt. Ten minutes before the recording, I sat in my car in the Denny’s parking lot near the Earwolf studios praying that I was doing right for myself, and my community. Thirty seconds before recording, Nick, Matt, Heather, and I had a nice catch-up conversation about our lives and careers as I wiped my sweaty, shaking palms on my jeans under the table.
Twenty-four minutes into the episode, as we started discussing the game, I paused, took a deep breath, and with a nervous voice, I listed off the upsetting circumstances with which I’d been asked to guest on the show, punctuated with a stone cold serious, “What the fuck?”
The following two paragraphs are both a summary of my thoughts on the recording and pretty much exactly what I told Matt, Heather and Nick live in that cramped podcasting booth.
Native people are often put into a tiny cultural box that defines how we’re allowed to look (long hair, feathers, loincloths, stoic facial expressions) and what we’re allowed to talk about (our historic trauma and, as of the past few years, the whole Elizabeth Warren “Cherokee ancestry” thing). And we’re only allowed a small window each year when people want to hear us talk about it (Thanksgiving). Most people’s understanding of Native American culture and history stops around the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890. Because of that, we’re rarely allowed to be true, three-dimensional human beings in our lives and careers.
I’m proud of my culture and I love talking about Native issues, but there’s a difference between someone asking for my unique, weird perspective and someone who just wants a generic “Native American” on their show for woke points. The former makes me feel honored and respected as a comedian and human being. The latter reduces me to a token and makes me feel like my skin is covered in bugs. Casually asking me to review a game about the rape of a Native American woman for the Thanksgiving episode of a comedy podcast, without a hint of understanding as to why that’s a ridiculous thing to ask someone, is the email equivalent of covering me in a blanket made entirely of cockroaches. What, besides my Nativeness, made them think I’d be a good fit for this? Why on Thanksgiving, a day that gives us a yearly reminder of our genocide? What “Native” perspective am I even supposed to bring to Custer’s Revenge besides that rape is bad and that, according to recent government statistics, Native American and Alaska Native women are more than 2.5 times more likely to be raped or sexually assaulted than other women in the United States? Should I, as a Native man really be the one speaking on that? And is that something you want on a comedy show about bad video games?
Looking at the audio file for the podcast, the moment after I spoke my feelings appears as a dip, absent of noise. It’s like the heaviness of the air in the small, soundproofed room deflated the sound wave. The volume levels for the remaining 25 minutes of the episode are significantly lower then the previous 25 minutes. It’s the perfect visualization of shame and self-reflection in a digital audio format.
Those interested in hearing the whole conversation can listen starting at 23:40, but otherwise, suffice it to say it was an atypical episode of the show, and a much shorter one than usual.
Heather, Matt and Nick sent me individual apology emails the next day. They not only offered to bring me back for a more enjoyable episode, but they asked for recommendations for other Native comedians to bring on for episodes not focused on our trauma or scheduled around Thanksgiving. They even offered to give me final edit on the episode and asked me to write the episode’s description, which helped ease my nerves about the narrative forming around my appearance.
I spent the week and a half between record and release in an icy sweat haze, venting to friends about my podcast experience. Though everyone was encouraging, I worried if I’d done the right thing.
Within hours of the episode’s release, I received hundreds of emails, tweets, texts, and direct messages from friends and strangers. I was told that by confronting people I respect about how they’d tokenized me, I’d given others the courage to do the same with their friends and co-workers. Listeners confided in me that my refusal to apologize for my emotions drove them to tears, and their kind and thoughtful messages did the same for me. The episode didn’t make me a pariah among comedians; instead, it received a hearty endorsement from comedy podcast legend Paul F. Tompkins.
One of my favorite stories came from a friend, who was in a café that day and overheard a table of podcasters discussing the episode while going through their own guest lists. They’d been convinced to triple-check their future bookings to make sure that their own efforts toward inclusivity weren’t also accidentally tokenizing.
Joey Clift is a comedy writer and enrolled member of the Cowlitz Indian Tribe. Yes, his bio photo is him wearing a suit covered in cat faces. He’s kind of a cat guy. Follow him on Twitter @joeytainment.
226 Comments
The hero caption names the podcast “How Did This Get Made” instead of “Played.”
Geostorm!
I’d like to think the caption is talking about the photograph itself.
Caught and fixed. Thanks, Morley.
Sounds funny.
I listened to this last week, and this was a difficult and admirable thing to do. But this article reads as very self-congratulatory.
Seriously. This was not as impressive an accomplishment as he seems to think.
What do you know about how impressive he thinks his actions are in the grand scheme of things?
The dude blogged about it.
That is literally the least specific response possible.
Well, and I, uh, read the blog. And it was dumb.
Fucking hell, you’re a fuck nugget. This is why the Natives got genocided.
Shout out to you, Joey.
It’s a good thing we have Joey Clift here to let us all know what a brave hero he is. You were kind of a dick to a few people on a podcast. And now you’re trying to milk it to help your career. Get over it.
Definitely came as a curveball listening to the episode on my commute, but I’m glad you chose to address it live and that Heather and Nick (and Matt) were responsive and ready to engage within the confines of the format.If I’d ever tokenized a friendship, or otherwise put my friend in an uncomfortable position because of their identity, I’d want them to tell me directly, to not pull punches, and to be honest about how I hurt them.And yeah, the 2006 Prey is pretty good!
You’d want them to ambush you live on a podcast and then go on a quasi publicity tour promoting how you embarrassed them for having the audacity to invite you on their podcast to help your career which up until this point has involved nothing of any note.
Either you don’t understand what “live” means or what “podcast” means or both.
He also said this:“help your career which up until this point has involved nothing of any note”…regarding a guy who has a documented career as a paid writer.
Hmm. 1. Not live, that’s not how this works. 2. They chose to release the episode to own up to it, and I’m assuming this article wouldn’t exist had they had chosen otherwise. He didn’t do it for publicity, because on the episode itself, he mentions the fact that he thinks it will probably never see the light of day. But sure.
It was certainly recorded live. Musicians/bands release live albums all of the time, but they are certainly not performing literally at the same time people are listening to the release (but they’re still referred to as live albums).I also doubt that the podcast would be recorded, then not released to the public, and we wouldn’t hear about it (but this is certainly speculation on my part).
Lol it’s cute that you think there was an option for them to not release the podcast. Yeah I’m sure there wouldn’t have been any backlash to that.
What backlash could there have been? It’s easy for them to either explain what happened and not release it out of respect for the guest, if that’s the direction they chose to take, or just say there were unforeseen issues during the recording and they wouldn’t be releasing it.
OK boomer
It bothers me that people as unfunny as you exist.
And I’m 29. Dumbass
29? Dude nice 😎
Then you’re old enough to know that being an online shitlord isn’t something that a grown adult should be doing. ;-*But, let’s look at this: Lol. I worked as a democratic staffer in Congress for 7 years and now work in the film industry in LA. So…why do this? Are you truly THAT unhappy?
To the extent that a bunch of virtue signaling douches have taken over the democratic party and this website which actually used to have decent content, yes I am angry.In general though no.
bunch of virtue signaling douches So is there a difference between a conversation that should be had and “virtue signaling,” or is it all virtue signaling from where you sit?Because, y’know, there is a difference. But if you’re going to tar literally any and all callouts or things such as this as “virtue signalling,” you won’t see the difference.This dude wasn’t selling shit. He went on a podcast and said that something bothered him, they all talked about it, and a greater understanding was reached. Where, exactly, the fuck is the harm in that?
“But if you’re going to tar literally any and all callouts or things such as this as “virtue signalling,” you won’t see the difference.”I don’t and didn’t. So…. And he’s selling himself. You clearly didn’t listen to the actual podcast. I did. It wasn’t a polite conversation where they “talked” about anything. He accused them of racism and demanded they apologize multiple times and when Heather said it was going to bother her for the rest of her life he said “good”. And now he’s here writing about how brave what he did was. But yeah he was just “educating” them. Totally selfless.
I don’t and didn’t. Dude, you’re in these threads often. If you’ve ever categorized something like this as NOT “virtue signalling,” I missed it. Your usual refrain, borne out by your post history, is that all of this is virtue signalling bullshit. ::shrug:: He accused them of racism and demanded they apologize multiple times and when Heather said it was going to bother her for the rest of her life he said “good”. I mean…they fucking brought him on during a shitty holiday for Native Americans to discuss a shit game in which you try to dodge “savages” in order to rape a tied-up native. It was a pretty fucking stupid thing to do in 2019. ::shrug:: And now he’s here writing about how brave what he did was. That’s one read. Another is something like Hey! Do you give a shit about having difficult conversations when they come up? Here’s how I did it.
“Dude, you’re in these threads often. If you’ve ever categorized something like this as NOT “virtue signalling,” I missed it.”Please PLEASE find another example of me calling something virtue signaling. I’ve used that phrase maybe twice this entire year including the time above. I think that people who go on about how brave they are to have accused someone of racism are idiots. He risked absolutely nothing by doing this and there was only ever going to be one outcome. The people he accused apologized repeatedly and begged forgiveness and he’s now spent the past 2 weeks trying to promote this in different forums. That’s not “brave” under any definition of the word I’m familiar with.Nor was this anymore “important” than the dozens of race related call-outs twitter has going on a daily basis. Which is to say not important at all.
Please PLEASE find another example of me calling something virtue signaling. I’ve used that phrase maybe twice this entire year including the time above. Okay, fair enough. So… I think that people who go on about how brave they are to have accused someone of racism are idiots. He risked absolutely nothing by doing this and there was only ever going to be one outcome. The people he accused apologized repeatedly and begged forgiveness and he’s now spent the past 2 weeks trying to promote this in different forums. That’s not “brave” under any definition of the word I’m familiar with. The word “brave” is not used in the article. The author does not call himself “brave.” So where’s the bitch? Nor was this anymore “important” than the dozens of race related call-outs twitter has going on a daily basis. Which is to say not important at all. THAT’S what I’m talking about when I refer to half-assed nihilism. The message you’re putting across here, whether you intend to or not, is that race-related call outs don’t matter.This one seems to have worked out, all things considered. An error was called out, a discussion was ultimately had (regardless of whether you think anger was justified, which matters about as much as whether I think it was justified), and shit was learned. And you’ve been fighting this specific call out when it worked out more or less well.If you think that race-related conversations aren’t worth the trouble, fine. But you’re bitching about something that seems to have been worth the trouble for all parties.
“seems” is the operative word here. I seriously doubt Nick and Heather are actually fine with what happened. But that’s not something that anyone can prove. And you’re right, I absolutely think that most “race related call-outs”, as they’re currently practiced, don’t matter. Racism as a concept has been broadened by the left to the extent that it’s almost meaningless. It’s the only lens the left is interested in filtering absolutely everything through for about a decade now (and is the reason they lose us the election) and funnily enough it’s always under the guise of “WHY CAN’T THIS COUNTRY HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE?”. I don’t have time to continue having this discussion today.
What is the opposite of virtue signaling? Shit-signaling? “Guys here is this shit opinion that I don’t really believe, I’m just shit-signaling in a desperate attempt to get you to be on my side.”Or like, virtue law-enacting? Let’s enact laws that reduce racism? OK, good, good… Is that what Republicans are doing, like, at all, in any way shape or form?Or like, just don’t do racisms and don’t tell anyone else when they’re doing racisms? Poof! No more racism, we did it everyone!“Stop calling things racism” OK well, uh, how will we know, then, and who’s defining it?
And yet you’ve got the same rancid opinions as a privileged white dude in his 60s who’s deeply upset that a BIPOC individual voiced their concerns about being treated as a token Native voice by people he considered his peers and whom he respected.So yeah…fuck off, boomer.
Much as I hate the “OK Boomer” thing (because we done ruined it really quickly), yep.It’s someone bitching about someone else pushing back against a shitty segment on a podcast.
Pivoting from “live” to “recorded live” is misleading because “recorded live” is meaningless in this context. Podcasts are routinely re-started, edited, or not released. The “live” aspect of “recorded live” doesn’t change the fact that podcasters had several options for how to proceed after things didn’t go as planned. There was no live audience to consider, no continuity factors outside their control.If they felt they were treated unfairly, they would have been well within their rights to stop recording, talk things out, and figure out how to proceed. They chose not to.
Agreed. That was the point I was making as well. That it wasn’t “live” since it was just a recording. Not that they couldn’t have done it because it was live.
Unlike macattack27’s career, which is undoubtedly illustrious and full of well-known successes,You ever get anything on TV, you dweeb?
How would you have any insight into that? I’m not making grandiose claims about the motives of strangers who invite me on their podcasts. So I’m not sure why I would be held to the same standard at all? It’s almost like you’re not a very intelligent person who is looking for something, anything, to criticize because this doesn’t mesh with your woke bullshit.
The Mac Attack Chronicles: 27 Episodes of all Mac, all the time
What kind of car do you think he drives? I’m guessing it’s either really small or really big, it’s a make that doesn’t exist anymore, and it has one of those Barrel of Monkeys air fresheners on the rearview. It’s pretty tidy, and if he gives you a ride he makes sure you acknowledge how tidy his car is (bonus points if you tell him your car is messy).
I like to think it’s a tiny two seater SmartCar, but has been customized to have a truck bed in the back for no reason.
His sweet motherfucking subwoofer isn’t “no reason,” dude. It’s all the reasons.
read the article, dipshit. he openly informed them of the discussion he wanted to have.also, podcasts aren’t live.
I did read the article. “a serious discussion about Native American representation to their show, which they said they were ready for. Based on the enthusiasm of their response, I knew they had no clue the gravity of what they’d done, or the metric ton of lessons I was about to shovel their way.”Seems like it’s you who didn’t read the article. “podcasts aren’t live” – You’re well aware what I meant. Any commas I missed that you want to point out? Loser
“also, podcasts aren’t live.”They’re recorded live. When a band releases a “live” album does that mean that every time you listen to it they’re playing live right at that moment, or is it connotating a different understanding of the word “live” that is maybe beyond your vocabulary. Really sick own though bro.
👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼
Pivoting from “live” to “recorded live” is misleading because “recorded live” is meaningless in this context. Podcasts are routinely re-started, edited, or not released. The “live” aspect of “recorded live” doesn’t change the fact that podcasters had several options for how to proceed after things didn’t go as planned. There was no live audience to consider, no continuity factors outside their control.If they felt they were treated unfairly, they would have been well within their rights to stop recording, talk things out, and figure out how to proceed. They chose not to.Why you mad, bro?
“no continuity factors outside their control.” You don’t think the certainty of this guy running to social media if they didn’t relinquish all control of the episode and get on their knees to beg for forgiveness could have played into the way they acted like they did. To pretend they had an actual choice on how to deal with this and not have their entire careers ruined is, I think, foolish.
To pretend the hosts of the podcast were powerless to control their own product is very strange. As I said, they had plenty of options regarding how to proceed.The situation you’re describing, however, is only true if you assume they wanted him to go away, and just pretend the whole thing never happened. And I agree, that was not really an option. It also assumes that they’re secretly furious about being mildly informed that they made a mistake.
They’re called “live” albums because they’re recorded in front of a live audience. Honestly not sure what you’re trying to imply with “live” here—they’re not reading from a script, I guess?
Why do you care about a word I used borderline incorrectly in a hastily typed comment? It has little to nothing to do with the substance of my comment.
Because in using that word you’re attempting to make it look they didn’t have complete control over the content and release of the podcast.
Yeah I’m sure Joey would have been cool and not gone on a social media call out spree had they chosen not to release the episode. Doing something with a social justice gun to your head isn’t the same thing as doing it willingly.
“sOCiAl jUstIcE gUn”Yeah, gee, wonder what your motivations are here. Piss off, will you?
Nah. And you have no insight into my or anyone’s motivations.
Everything is recorded ‘live’ – that’s how recording fucking works. Podcasts are rigorously edited and yes, frequently, episodes never see the light of day. You absolute fuckin’ dweeb.
When macattack thinks “recording,” he doesn’t think about lame shit like people talking into microphones. He thinks of the sweet-ass electronica that he composes on his aging MacBook and then fucking blasts in his sweet ride while he tears through the Inland Motherfucking Empire to get some In n Out.
He informed them that he wanted to have a serious discussion but in the same breath admits it was clear to him that they had no understanding of what he meant.
Sorry macattack, my comment was directed towards people who have friends and engage in regular human interaction.
Lol. I worked as a democratic staffer in Congress for 7 years and now work in the film industry in LA. But no you’re right. Anyone who disagrees with you is a hysterical crying troll and is definitely DEFINITELY typing at this very moment from their mommy’s basement. Fuck yourself.
Staffer for 7 years? Sounds like someone didn’t get the promotion.
“Staffer” isn’t a position. I was promoted every two years and left as an LA. Good try though! I can see how it would seem like that to someone who has no concept of being anything other than a failure.
So you moved from the lowest rung on the totem pole to the second-lowest rung on the totem pole, Legislative Assistant? Weird thing to brag about, but this really only seems to be the tip of the iceberg in terms of your personal issues.
LOLNot surprised that you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Office hierarchy: intern-staff assistant- legislative correspondent – legislative assistant – legislative director – chief of staff – Member Don’t feel bad though, how would you have any idea how things are done outside of some shitty school that people are embarrassed to go to.
It’s a research assistant job for those looking to pursue law or politics, and I notice that you’re not bragging about your time at law school, so I guess things didn’t work out?Yikes!Imagine being 29 years old and arguing with a stranger about how important your old job was, on a gaming website comment section.
God you’re trying so hard to find something that bothers me. You were the one who speculated as to my social situation and level of “human interaction”. So I decided to look into what yours is. Speaking of which you’re clearly pretty bothered by all of this or you wouldn’t be so intent on trying to find something that hurts me. Too bad your understanding of Congress is so lacking. “It’s a research assistant job for those looking to pursue law or politics”Lol, I was working in Congress, in what way was I “looking to pursue politics”? Seems like I had already pursued them successfully?
Research assistants aren’t elected officials, bub!Maybe you can find voices more sympathetic to your cause of being a very important boy on another gaming website comment section.
So in your mind the only people pursuing or working in politics are elected officials? Wow your opinion somehow counts for less than I had initially thought.
If I was an admissions counselor at some garbage school at this point in my life I would straight up kill myself. No questions asked.
That would probably be for the best, fam.
All the most intelligent people I know end sentences with “fam”. Literally no one on the face of the earth gives a shit what you think about anything.
Oooh, 29 and uncomfortable with slang! You’re so not like the other girls. A real iconoclast.
Do you talk exclusively in sentences you’ve seen on twitter? I guess I’m not proud of talking or sounding like a fucking idiot, so take that for what it’s worth.
If that is a point of pride for you, I have some terrible news.
No one cares what you think or have to say about anything.
And yet you just can’t help but defend yourself, because deep in your heart you know how desperately small you are.
That’s why? I guess I always assumed it was because I think I’m right. Glad I have you here to tell me, a person that you’ve never met, how I really feel. Actually I’m not even sure what you mean by “desperately small”? If you mean literally, I’m 6’1 so that’s not really true. I guess in terms of NBA players it is, but there are a few guys who are like 6’3 who play PG in the NBA?
Right, I should be at the point in my life where I’m bragging about jobs I used to have and Googling strangers to try and insult them. Much more fulfilling, I’m sure.
Definitely better than being an admissions counselor. Fucking loser.
Yeah, what a loser, helping people with their education. How embarrassing for them, I can’t even believe they show their face.
me either.
You must be so embarrassed. Can you believe that you’re talking down to a former Democratic staffer* and current film-industry employee**? *Once sold coffee to his state representative**Once sold coffee to Brad Pitt or a guy who looked a lot like Brad Pitt but it was totally Brad Pitt
I’m not sure what is more sad: your ignorant & pointlessly hurtful post, or that you got 10 stars for said ignorance & hurtfulness.
2006 Prey is seriously underrated.Really a shame that the fantastic most recent “Prey” wasn’t allowed to be called “Psychoshock” or something, instead of just using an entirely unrelated name that the parent company happened to own, since that’s gonna make Prey 2006 even less visible. But oh well!
Learning moments aren’t a bad thing. They can be uncomfortable, but sometimes people need to be told when they’re hitting a blind spot.
teachable moments are just a more patronizing form of struggle sessions. JFC just talk to your friend don’t try to publicly embarrass them.
Heard this the other day after I saw it brought up on social media and listening to it kinda made me hopeful. The confrontation was rightfully heavy but the hosts were contrite and accepted the accusation and sounded like they really wanted to make a change (nothing I hate more than when someone fights something like this.) They offered their perspective on where they were coming from but didn’t use it as an excuse to shield from criticism. You were great for your part in laying out where things were fucked up with…I can’t think of the right way to phrase it but essentially with a calming maturity that’s really hard to achieve when being on the wrong end of such encounters if that makes sense? It probably doesn’t and I’m probably wording it wrong. But I really hope more people can listen to the podcast and take positive things away from it (like mindfulness).
I completely get it, and know exactly how you feel. We only matter in the press when discussing the Tomahawk Chop, Elizabeth Warren, or how we feel about Thanksgiving. I had an african american friend tell me my people didnt have it bad. I had to look him straight in the eye and say NO ONE valued my people enough to even keep around as slaves. We were exterminated at a level even the Jews didnt see in Nazi Germany, and no one bats an eye.
I told him my tribe doesnt even have a Reservation due to the Federal Government STILL not honoring our FRAUDULENTLY signed treaty and we are in court STILL trying to get Federal Recognition. Since 1905 we have been fighting still. While slaves hadnt been around since the Civil War. We have several attachments to bills to bypass the inept BIA’s management of tribes. Like our attachment to this https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/senate-bill/1790/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Shell_Tribe_of_Chippewa_Indians_of_Montana
Also: everyone should totally play Mother 3 if you haven’t yet.
Breaking chews!……..
I think my dad was involved in some questionable stuff back when I was a kid. We had an Atari and I remember playing Custer’s Revenge when I found it hidden in a drawer somewhere. My dad didn’t even play games. He used to work security for some porn producers and best I can figure it was just given to him after it fell of a truck. We also had Beat ‘Em and Eat ‘em and Porky’s. The weird thing was we were just allowed to play Porky’s, it was in our normal game collection. Now that I’m an adult I see how weird that is.
Joey this was a really thought provoking and good thing you did. It exposed a blindspot it turns out I had too, and I learned a lot listening to you gracefully navigate this very difficult situation. My first thought was definitely ‘I’m glad they’re having an indigenous voice on to discuss this shitty offensive game’, and it didn’t even occur to me how that well meaning idea was ignorant in other, now blindingly obvious ways. Serious kudos to you for going through with your guest appearance, and not backing down on the confrontation or apologising at any point for getting your message across. I hope to hear you on future episodes of this, or any podcast I subscribe to.
Seems like a lose-lose, then, right? I think the big issue isn’t just that they invited a native person, but that they did it only for this episode. I think the other issue is that this is so blatantly stupid that it’s demeaning to ask a native person to respond seriously. The game is so stupid and irrelevant.I don’t think Heather or Nick or Matt even thought about that, and I don’t resent them for it—this is a mistake literally anyone here would make, even if we thought we were doing the right thing. That’s what is so important about it.I’m Jewish. If my comedy friends invited me onto their podcast airing the week of Yom Kippur to discuss a crass video game from the 80s where you play an SS officer trying to rape a tied up concentration camp victim, I’d probably… well, I’d probably do it, because I’d understand the “humor” of the situation—i.e. how ridiculous it is. The big difference is that native people are not afforded the opportunities that, say, a Jewish person is. Joey was only booked because it was a Thanksgiving episode. And while it’s unlikely that that was the sole reason they booked him, it’s also not a coincidence that one of a relative few native peopel were asked to do a show for Thanksgiving.
Yeah, I didn’t even realize how insane it was until Joey brought it up. This was episode was a good lesson for me.
Yes, the problem was they didn’t think about it. They knew they were having him on for representation, obviously they wouldn’t havent considered him if he wasn’t someone they knew and thought was funny and could be a good guest, but they didn’t think past that to consider the wider context, like its being a Thanksgiving episode about this gross game, and having a first time native guest on it. I didn’t think about that either, so I’m glad I listened to what joey had to say.There are potential wins here, like having joey on other episodes first, or not tackling this game in their first episodes. If Joey was a 3 time guest, or if it wasn’t a Thanksgiving episode, or if it was three years into their run, it would have a different context.
Agreed. It was a perfect storm, in a sense. It’s not that you can’t talk about shitty stuff, and it’s not that you can’t talk about shitty stuff with someone who has skin in the game; but the way they did it prioritized the gag over the person, which creates the token-ization. I really like Heather, Nick, and Matt, and I think it’s pretty obvious this never crossed their minds, which I think is why it’s a good lesson. I would have made the same mistake, and frankly, as a Jew, I probably wouldn’t have even thought about it if it was a Jewish guest talking about an anti-Semitic game, because the Jewish experience is different from the native American experience, even if there are similarities in terms of painful history. Which is why context is everything.
I really like nick, he’s clearly got good politics too, Im still learning about Heather and Matt as my first real exposure to them is this podcast (I’ve been listening since the beginning but its early days) , but I can tell they are good people. I’m glad this has been a positive experience overall for those involved, as this is a perfect example of something racist that happened without any malice, just lack of thought and education. Its a really good thing joey was able to provide the latter, and I have a feeling it’ll have a ripple effect in how things like these bookings are approached in future.
Heather’s perspective as a gay woman was also really interesting, and her explanation of similar experiences (i.e. being invited, as a comedian, to lend a queer perspective) was important because it highlights how different minority experiences can be. Look, it could also be that Joey is more sensitive to this issue than Heather is, and that’s OK–that’s why these conversations matter so much.
None of his grievances had occurred to me un the prior 24 or so minutes until he’d brought them up. Then it was a rapidfire series of “Oh. Oh. Oh……… oh no.”
Not so much Yom Kippur as the anniversary of Kristallnacht, I’d say.
Scrolling through this message board gives a nice glimpse into the whole problem of native erasure, or whatever you want to call it. Someone on this page wrote an absurdly long post basically saying that this guy’s heritage doesn’t count because he looks white and lives in Los Angeles. You know, because actual Native Americans look like the guy from that anti-littering PSA and live in tents made of buffalo hide.
That’s the point that shocked me. Nobody PLAYED this game…. it wasn’t widely available and came at the tail end of the Atari era. It was more of a conversation starter about the face that it was an “adult” game mostly by folks who had never seen or played it. There’s not an hour worth of discussion to be had from the game itself. A monumental misstep on every level that seems to have been intentional… why choose that game, on that episode, with that guest host, unless its purposeful. To be fair to the whole staff, we have no idea who was completely responsible for the booking and the planning, maybe it was all Matt, maybe not. IIRC Heather didn’t even know Joey was Native American when confronted. It was a tough listen to be sure.
My guess is that the podcasters are monstrously self-centered solipsistic people like 99% of Los Angeles.
Nah, get to know these folks and you’ll see that’s not true at all. I really think that as embarrassing and shameful as this was, their perspective was one that virtually any of us could have fallen into.
The episode wasn’t live, they chose to release an episode of themselves getting raked over the coals for 30 minutes. While their idea initially was pretty self centered I can’t imagine a less self-centered response.
The fucking moron saying that Clift doesn’t have a career should use fucking Google: https://m.imdb.com/name/nm4187787/
Lol so wait, what are we supposed to be impressed with there? The fact that he wrote for one season for a Nickelodeon show? Yeah that’s the big time alright. He’s literally done nothing of note. In his entire career. Do you know how long down on the rung writing for a Nickelodeon show is?
Lol of course you dismissed my comment. Loser.
“Lol of course you dismissed my comment.”It was a fucking dumb, inaccurate comment made solely for the purpose of shitting on something that someone ::GASP:: cared about.I know! In the age of 4chan and dipshit online nihilism, some folks STILL care about shit! Genuinely, even! “Loser.”Lovely retort. You should be a paid writer! ;-*
He seems to have reflexively dismissed my comment when I informed him that he doesn’t seem to know what a “live podcast” is.
Lol of course he dismissed your comment. Loser. /sSeriously though, I’m tired of the whole “caring about shit is stupid” shtick. It’s old.
You should learn how to use quotes correctly. And also think, say and write things that are less dumb. You and Joey are both soooo brave btw.
No one anywhere cares what you think about anything.
No one anywhere cares what you think about anything. Said the sweet, adorable little dipshit who responded. ;-*
You’re both losers who have spent a substantive portion of your life on this earth hanging out in the avclub comment section hoping for human interaction of some kind.Your opinions mean very….very little to me. Or anyone really.
You’re both losers who have spent a substantive portion of your life on this earth hanging out in the avclub comment section hoping for human interaction of some kind. He said without a hint of irony.
Wow, that piece of shit troll. What garbage it is.
jesus christ, what idiots. (the hosts, not you.)like, what the fuck? how are those squishy white people so far up their own asses that they couldn’t see that this was a terrible thing to ask someone to do, especially after inviting an acquaintance on to serve as a token.
Listened to this on the plane ride back to my parents house for Thanksgiving. Safe to say it was a profoundly uncomfortable experience and I was cringing on behalf of everyone involved. Uncomfortable, but ultimately productive, though, and good on Clift for having the courage to go there. Frankly, they shouldn’t have touched “Custer’s Revenge” with a ten-foot pole in the first place, but making it the centerpiece of a Thanksgiving episode and inviting on a Native guest for their “unique insights” on a game about raping a Native American woman was unbelievably tone-deaf. At best.
If nothing else, this article is a reminder that Custer’s Revenge isn’t a worthwhile topic of discussion – it’s a gross footnote in video game history that’s been assigned outsize importance simply because it’s gross. It’s a screenshot you show the other kids in your dorm, so they can say, “Holy shit, is that real?” And you tell them, “Yeah, it was an unpopular Atari game from the mid 80s.” And they say, “Whoa.” If you try to extend the conversation beyond that, they’ll assume you’re a weirdo.
Exactly. I know their brief is to talk about the “worst and weirdest” games, but it’s hard to imagine a discussion of Custer’s Revenge being particularly funny, entertaining, or even informative. It’s a crude (technologically, aesthetically, and morally) game about raping a Native American woman produced by a low budget Swedish erotica company that has zero cultural relevance except as a sad footnote. It’s the equivalent of the MST3K folks trying to wring some yuks out of a Serbian Film.
I went into this episode without knowing what was going to happen, and thought Joey sounded off at first. Didn’t know if he was just tired or high or what, but it made a ton of sense when you know that he was racked with nerves the whole time leading up to it. It was a great episode, though, and I hope HDTGP follows through (which I trust they will.)
was the picture taken before or after the conversation?
After, I’m pretty sure, as Joey is holding the bread from the end of the episode.
Given he’s already holding pumpkin bread from later in the ep and his gleefully insane expression of making his hosts feel like shit, it’s undoubtably after.
good for him tho
wow, that could have gone WAY left. good job on educating your colleagues.
Great job unapogetically, unflinchingly discussing this issue.
omg ilu <3 Thank you for doing this, it sounds terrifying but I think you did the right thing
This episode was so incredibly good. I had alot of misgivings when the show had announced it as the subject the week previous, and Joey did not disappoint.
I didn’t realize before listening that the show was actually intended to drop during Thanksgiving week – I often let podcast episodes pile up then pick through and play at random – so when I heard you call them out specifically for picking you as the Thanksgiving week guest, I was shocked that they went with that plan intentionally. (Similar but lesser feeling to hearing one coworker of mine ask a Native coworker how she’d celebrated Thanksgiving, and getting the ‘yeeaaaah, we really don’t do much for that’ response back.) It was a good discussion.
You need to go back and provide a Native voice for analyzing Turok: Dinosaur Hunter because that game was wildin’.
I heard this episode as soon as it dropped (I love the show) and it was incredible. So much respect for Joey and how this was handled. A great episode and an important conversation.
This is a great summary of what happened, and I think fairly captures the fact that what they did sucked, but also it doesn’t feel like an attack on them, which I think is great, because it really does seem like it wasn’t intentional, that they felt bad when you explained why it sucked, and that they learned the lesson you tried to teach them, which is great. You also replied to a Twitter thread I was in about this, and your responses there have been level-headed and fair given the sometimes heated discourse I’ve seen., while still sticking to your guns. I certainly learned something about situations where I could have completely well-meaning-ly (not a word) made someone feel bad without intending to.
I celebrated by painting my face red, running around with a tomahawk and had fake wig (scalped hair) in my hand. That’s acceptable right?
Joey, I thought about getting Twitter just so I could tell you how beautiful and moving that episode was. I’ve been listening to the show since the beginning and while I don’t know anyone involved personally, I think you chose the right people to have this discussion with. I haven’t personally struggled with tokenism since I left the suburbs and moved to a city (I’m black, not exactly a hidden minority), but I know what it’s like to agonize over whether or not to point out if someone is being racist when you know they probably mean well.Also, as a “Yo, is This Racist?” podcast listener, it was nice to hear your “debrief” of the HDTGP interview. Hell, I was just happy to hear you twice in a row, you’re a great guest.
We don’t have to rehash our interaction on Instagram, but since AV Club decided to give you another platform to yell “IMMA HERO” from, I’ll reiterate:I think you’re full of shit and a phony asshole who uses the small percentage of Native American blood in him as a weapon to achieve what you are really after: attention for your career. I think you’re a blatant opportunist and you do a disservice to those you claim to “represent”.I wish people would pause and consider your actions before patting you on the back and encouraging your behavior – but that’s not the society we live in anymore.
When i first heard the podcast i was livid. I thought Joey was the biggest a**hole ever for ambushing two well meaning people on their own show. Now that ive read this article i still think hes an a**hole but hes also super right.This is a podcast where they make fun of bad video games, yet in the typical ‘liberal white idiot’ way they brought on a minority guest to be inclusive for its own sake and to shove social issues into a show that has nothing to do with that. For this they got held hostage and humiliated on their own podcast. If they had done the show with no guest or a random non-native guest nobody would care at all.The lesson i hope everyone learns is that there is only downsides in trying to shove social justice into everything to try and look “woke”. Because if you succeed nobody really cares, but if you fail you get articles written about how stupid you are.
Wonderful. I was behind on my podcasts, somehow missed that this happened, and I was considering skipping the episode altogether because of how infamously hateful the game itself is. I’m glad that I didn’t. It was a kick to the stomach, but a necessary one. I like Nick and Heather. As far as I can tell, they’re good people. Which is why I’m glad you called them out. It takes strength to check good people when they need checking, especially on their home turf.
I like this podcast and was not at all expecting the turn it took. Honestly at the start I didn’t even put together the game-holiday connection. Holy cow did this confrontation make me as a listener really uncomfortable! In a good way. I’m glad you did it. You had some great points and much of it was stuff that I just never considered.Good for you for bringing your concerns respectfully but firmly, good on the hosts for listening and airing the episode. I learned a lot. I’m glad for the experience.
Holy shit shut the fuck up.
“I had two options in responding to this ill-conceived invitation. I could say no, and kick the can down the road for the next unsuspecting Native guest, passing on a legacy of microaggressions for future Native comedians to deal with from here to eternity. Or I could go on the show and risk my career.”
No. There were more options. The one that I would have taken is, “Take it up directly with them, have it out by email, and see if we could get to an agreement. If not, I move on. If they’re particularly horrible, maybe I leak it.” Or, “I could take it, but be clear about how I wanted to be presented and what my terms were.” This was grandstanding, a stunt.
Yes, proclaim your desire for minorities to remain as silent as makes you comfortable, it’s a good look.
I mean, I’m a minority and I’m not advocating silence so… not sure what you mean. I agree with his viewpoints. I don’t agree with how he expressed them. There used to be room for this kind of disagreement, but here we are in 2019. I guess Malcolm and Martin would have had to kill each other in the streets if they lived now.
I really doubt this episode would have had any impact on a wide audience with even the most tersely worded email. Is disagreeing with a stranger on the internet equivalent to murder “here in 2019?” Curiously self-fulfilling statement you’ve made. And speaking of Malcolm and Martin, how were their lives ended again? Do you think it would have been better and safer for them to just write an email? FWD:RE: DREAM I HAD
I may have used hyperbole, but your comment “Yes, proclaim your desire for minorities to remain as silent as makes you comfortable, it’s a good look.” sort of set the stage. You made rather incredible jumps of logic there, friend.
You’re right, an email is not technically silent, I apologize for my egregious claim. However, “I really doubt this episode would have had any impact on a wide audience with even the most tersely worded email.” Again, it feels like we were so close to achieving self-aware-enlightenment by referencing MLK and Malcom…
The strange part of all of this is I suspect that I agree with you on lots of these issues, maybe nearly all of them. I take your points, and there is a good bit of wisdom in your comment that Clift did achieve a goal of this going “viral” by the tactics he employed. I suppose I’m not good at these sorts of tactics.
This is a horrible take, which probably says a bit about you
Yeah, being a decent fucking person and not leveraging your racism accusation for extra attention is now considered to be so unreasonable that to even suggest it is a “horrible take”.“Probably says a bit about you”-Why do you people like you love to use this line of reasoning? Is it because it allows you to immediately skip to the judging other people based on absolutely nothing part of an interaction?
You’re also an infamous shithead, grey. You think you’re well adjusted and normal, but you’re not. You’re a selfish creep. Maybe one day you’ll realize and stop your pointless rants. Unlikely. You’ll continue creeping out coworkers and family until the day your anger at something stupid drops you dead.
Your opinion means very little to me. Or anyone. Tell me more stuff about myself that you made up in your mind to justify your seething rage towards strangers.
Why should it be assumed that your preferred course of action is the one a “decent fucking person” would take? The attitudes that coloured the hosts’ decision making here are likely shared by a sizeable chunk of the podcast’s listeners, why should the writer have passed up the opportunity to reach them as well?
A sizeable chunk of the podcasts listeners book podcast guest themselves? Or guests for anything? That seems not true.
Kind of the opposite of grandstanding. All parties come out looking good and thoughtful and cooperative here, so I’m not sure why you have a fucking problem.Probably because you got called out for bad behavior, and instead of listening and changing, you got defensive and butthurt because you’re a sad, pathetic, insecure man.
My bad behavior? I am not any of these people. I agree with the goals of Clift and I am actually a minority. So, no. I just approach conflict differently. Sorry that that makes me the worst person on earth here.
If he kept this private and small and apologetic, we’d never have known about it.
You’re a very…very dumb person.
I know I’m late, but I just recently heard about this whole “I called someone out and wrote an article about it” thing when I was talking to a friend about this episode of “how did this get played” or “Get played podcast”. As a person of Native/African American decent married to someone of Native decent who has been a listener to the pod since day one… I have to agree. I wouldn’t take my white friends somewhere public to call them out for being racist. I would address it in the moment and help them. After reading the other comments about this comment. I have no faith in these allies and their mob mentality. If we’re just going to constantly blast people for making mistakes in terms of racial insensitivity, we’ll have a culture of nothing but a sort of ‘fear of being called-out’ for situations they didn’t fully understand. If your safe space isn’t a place of learning and understanding, then what makes it safe? It seems wild, that Joey would take such pride in burning two actual allies just because he was able to ride off of with someone else’s audience to do it.
Thank you. This comment meant a lot to me. As a racial minority and as a liberal, I was fairly shocked at how quickly this turned to bile and anger. I worry that our hyperpolarized society gives no one any room for disagreement, lest we be piled in with the evil other side. But that only leads to a tyranny of silence – I can’t imagine that will help anyone learn. And the ones far away (the actual bigots) will be truly unreachable.
I think Turok Dinosaur Hunter would have been a better choice. Clusters Revenge is the The Day The Clown Cried of video games.
Sounds hilarious…
Custers Revenge, Native women in the game being raped by the white man, thanksgiving week, Joey Clift…..Jesus, all those red flags and none the mind to think about it….This called for fails since the beginning, “Evil acts always start with good intentions”
This rocks.
Hi I’m Joey Clift.As you may have noticed, I am a real enrolled Cowlitz Indian. I put it in my byline here on AVClub, I put it in my Twitter bio. Its how I introduce myself to others – Joey Clift, Enrolled Cowlitz Indian. I know that I have no distinguishing features that set me apart as anything other than white, that I look like a balding amalgamation of Jim Parsons and Bob Sagat, that I don’t have any unique insights or native experiences and I live in LA, but I am an enrolled member, so you know I am legit, and you know that my opinion matters. Like 200% more than all the other white men who are just white men and not white men like me, enrolled Cowlitz Indian, Joey Clift.When I am not penning timeless classics like Lego Ninjago: Decoded, I’ve built a small podcast career guest starring as an enrolled Cowlitz Indian, so let me tell you, it was a huge surprise when a podcast asked for me to come on and be an Indian guest. I don’t know how they knew, but it felt gross and tokenistic for them to invite me, enrolled Cowlitz Indian, to discuss things as a real enrolled Cowlitz Indian, and not to discuss them as Joey Clift, famed cat guy and Swamp Talk with Shrek and Donkey writer.Rather than tell them directly that they were being gross and tokenistic, and rather than cashing in on a few Twitter likes by airing them out for my 3k followers, I waited until I could confront them on their podcast. I wanted to teach them a lesson. I wanted them to feel it. The agony of my ancestors who had been forced to march from Florida to Vancouver uphill in the snow, the ache of not making Wikipedia’s “Notable Cowlitz People” list, the shame of my culture’s only distinctions being grass baskets and flattening baby heads, I wanted them to feel it all.After my ordeal, all 25 minutes of uncomfortable podcast, I couldn’t function. I had all my friends telling me that I was right, I got apologies from the hosts, but it wasn’t enough. Where was my Ellen appearance? Is there enough here for another book? Is there another podcast where I can discuss my podcast experience? Should I reach out to Bisexual Woman of Color Lily Singh for a latenight spot? It was all swirling around in my head. Overwhelming. I could barely keep my Firewater down.
A few days have passed since the trauma of that podcast and things are finally starting to break. Paul F Tompkins tweeted something. I wrote a column for AV Club. Still waiting on my Ellen invite, someone might need to remind her that I am an Enrolled Cowlitz Indian.
Anyway, that’s enough from me, Enrolled Cowlitz Indian, Joey Clift. I hoped you learned something. Buy my book.
Lol fuck you, shithead. Did you miss the part about society strictly limiting what Native experiences can be, how they can look, etc.
Congrats on not understanding the actual point he’s making. Regale us all with more social justice talking points though, it’s fascinating.
God, you’re the absolute smallest kind of person. Die lonely.
Such an unnecessarily long, dumb comment to let the world know you’re total garbage.
This was a good comment, thank you
Man, you’re really shooting for the full Bingo card on this one. Good luck winning whatever the shitty prize is, I guess.
lol y u so mad?
I really considered listing all the ways in which this was racist, I really did. And then I realized it was exhausting, so here’s the main one:Cowiltz is a recognized nation. It is not an ethnicity. It’s a citizenship. It doesn’t matter how white he looks.*And he’s white-passing due to, y’know, all the sexual assault this game mocks.
If I’m understanding correctly what the game is, they really should have had a rapist as the guest, to speak to the mindset and motivations of a rapist etc.
Have to recommend the yo is this racist episode of the same week as well, where Joey discuss his decision to go on how did this get played in more detail.
I’m struck by the binary set of choices you present as though these were absolutely the only choices that you had. And I feel like I’m missing why you never considered the to-me-very-obvious third option of privately talking to Nick, Heather, and Matt about why this was an f’d up request.
https://turtletalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/custer-article.pdf“NOW will complain about anything not showing a woman in the dominant po- sition,” says Kesten. “We would not promote such an offensive thing as rape in a game. It’s a fun sequence where the woman is enjoying a sexual act willingly.”Stuart Kesten, the man behind the company that made the game, can be reached here:https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-kesten-a4baa85https://www.facebook.com/stuart.kesten
AAAAH! Adam Schiff’s nightmarish eyes!
This was 1/264th hilarious.
“I will be haunted by my mistake forever,” said the well-meaning but misguided video game podcast host.“Good”, said the hero of our story.
Yeah what a great guy right? Or wait no, what I meant to say was this guy is an attention seeking asshole.
Trying to determine the line whereby you don’t think someone is an asshole for seeking attention for you, in the world of publishing, or artistic expression, and trying to earn a living. Are bylines on articles OK or is putting your name on something you wrote too “attention-seeking” for you?If bylines are OK, what about editorials? Should they only be unsigned or are you OK with someone putting their real name on them?What about memoirs? Should they only be anonymous or is a memoir just too fucking much for you and that person who wrote it is an “attention-seeking asshole”?Or is it the content?
“…but there’s a difference between someone asking for my unique, weird perspective and someone who just wants a generic “Native American” on their show for woke points.”
I only made 5 minutes past the point Clift recommended for those wanting the rundown. I’m not familiar with this particular podcast, but it’s super cringe-y listening to the hosts, mostly the guy, keep trying to defend what was clearly a dumb moment. Heather says “if there was a podcast about gay comedians, I might be called in”, but this isn’t a podcast about Native comedians. And as Clift states above, what perspective is there to be found in a game as puerile and pointless as Custer’s Revenge? There’s not a story. There aren’t really characters. It’s a shitty edgy joke made into a game with slightly better graphics than Pong.
Yeah, good think you didn’t “dunk on” them publicly to draw attention to your victimization.
You could’ve used this as a learning moment, but you choose to remain dumb as a dildo.
Ooh…you got me, ShoeBox! How ever will I continue living in this world?
Don’t?
Encouraging self harm? Nice. You’re a good person.
LOL no I’m not.
Like, yeah. You are. I already said. Whatevs.
When a comedy podcast swings hard into seriousness, I’ll generally try and give it a listen at a later date because I respect the podcaster and that’s why I subscribe. I’ll wait to be in a more serious frame of mind, I mean I went to the comedy podcast because I wanted to listen to something funny. Man, when you started to get into it, I was rapt. Wool pulled from eyes, and it was sooo bright. What you did was brave and terrifying and enlightening. Things that I knew, but didn’t see. Just, wow. Needless to say, I listened to the whole thing then and there. I thought I had to be in a serious mind; then you just changed my mind, like that. Thank you.
wow! you really wrote for Nickelodeon!?!did you get to lick little girl’s feet with Dan Schneider?!?
Joycliff Joey Clift is about as much Native American as Elizabeth Warren.
Lot of folks in the comments confirming that the thing mediocre white folks fear more than anything in the world is being told what they are.
And so many people projecting their own insecurities and failure to take responsibility for their own behavior on Nick, Heather, and Matt, too. They seem at peace with Joey’s call-out and turned it into something more broadly educational, but these weirdos insist on painting them as victims with no power in this situation.
I’m a little salty about them having what might be the most ill-concieved idea for an episode in all of podcast history, but I’ll admit that they handled the situation with more grace than the chucklefucks in this comment section have cumulatively exhibited in their entire pathetic lives.
Great use of “chucklefucks.”
“I had two options, post a screencap to twitter to farm mob points or bring it up on the show awkwardly to make a point.” What about the 3rd option, discuss it with them like an adult before hand and ask for them to do better if they were going to invite you on. Like I’m glad it worked out in the end but seems like you fixated on picking one of two bad options when the right option was kinda just.. there.. and obvious.
When they said they were doing Custer’s Revenge the next week I thought they weren’t seriously gonna do it, and it was obviously a bad idea. I’m glad you handled it like you did and really it’s the best that could’ve come of this, it’s hard to find thoughtfulness in podcasts that are about tearing down things that are bad and though I like their podcast, I’d much rather have listened to something real about how it all came across than whatever jokes could be made about a racially motivated rape game
Is it even possible to “ruin” a comedy podcast?
My white and socially anxious first thought: “Not explaining your discomfort right then, keeping the booking for a while, and then blindsiding them in person seems like kind of a shitty ‘gotcha.’”My hopefully smarter second thought: “That’s why I don’t have a popular, publicly-consumed podcast. Also you had to feel blindsided and then shitty that whole time and then some. So if you were asked for a Native perspective, and were up for a conversation about your experience, they can deal if that experience is ‘this is upsetting.’ And this way we can all have a teachable moment about – this was going to be their Thanksgiving episode? Really?? The fuck-”
28:20 “You didn’t have a black performer on Martin Luther King day specifically to talk about the black experience. They’re allowed to just be comedians.”
Holy shit Joey. What other wisdoms do you have to drop about the black experience? What else do “they” get away with that you think is unfair?
There’s FNMI stuff in Canada that’s pretty okay. The Rez, for one (dating myself here lol). But there are more recent shows, APTN website probably has some listed. We’ve still got filmmakers hitting the circuit and there was even an opera on the topic of MMIWG. For non-North American indigenous media, every geek should give Cleverman a try.Not the point, I know, but it’s likely the only halfway useful thing I can add to the conversation. Also not bragging on Canada, the rates of violence and sexual violence against FNMI women & girls is actually worse here (based on comparing gov’t statistics from both countries).
Weird, though, that the hosts are repeatedly given a gushing pass after the fact. Do we presume that they’re rightfully aligned as artists or otherwise-woke people in good standing? Makes it worse, if you ask me. Intelligent, socially-aware people who green-lighted this idea….but it “wasn’t intentional.”
–
I’m a terrible person. If I had been either host, I’d have apologized profusely, quit podcasting immediately, and felt like shit for the rest of my life, which would not have lasted that much longer.
This was a really good and thought provoking episode. Difficult to listen to at times, but I’m glad it went well and that Nick and Heather were not defensive or deflective.The funny thing is that the conversation that preceded the ‘elephant in the room’ was really fun and insightful in its own way. I was interested to hear more about the indie games Joey is into. I don’t expect all guests to be as knowledgeable as Heather, but it’s refreshing when they can really get into it.
Custer’s Revenge is not only a shitty game, but too simplistic to merit discussion on its own. However, I do find the existence of Mystique and other fringe publishers that popped up in the tail end of the pre-bust era an interesting topic that I hope they cover in some other episode.
I don’t really listen to this show because I’m not into video games, but I’m a fan of Nick Wiger from Doughboys and this op-ed piqued my interest. This was a really good, worthwhile listen and something that I will think about going forward as someone who is always striving to shed light on my own blind spots. Well done.
I guess the positive thing that came out of this is that reconciliation with First Nations peoples is not the same thing as ‘talking to an Indian’.If the hosts, and listeners, perhaps learned something that’s great. Still, it’s hard to believe how anyone could be as dunce as the hosts of the show.Good on you for doing the podcast and expressing yourself.
It was a lose-lose scenario. Ask someone who might have a unique take on the horrible game for their opinion, and you’re only focusing on their race. Ask a non-native American, and you’re ignoring the perspective of someone whose opinion might actually matter. “Why didn’t you ask ME? We’re friends, and I’m a Native American — why WOULDN’T you want to talk to me???”
No one’s actually wondering why there aren’t more discussions about race in this country, are they? Because no matter what a white person says or does, they’re essentially doing nothing more than offering themselves up for crucifixion. Not that we don’t deserve it — I’m just saying that being made to feel like a worthless piece of shit isn’t my idea of a good time, regardless of how much better it might make a person of color feel. I’m sorry for everything, and I know your lives aren’t great, but if what you’re asking of me is to sit there and take it while you berate me for being a complete and total scumbag, I’m gonna have to pass. Again…….VERY SORRY about everything. I really am. But I’ll not be showing up at your backyard barbecue so you can ram a skewer from my mouth to my ass and roast me for a few hours. And YES, I’m very sorry about not being willing to do that. My apologies. And, I’m sorry. Please reply if you require additional apologies. I assure you that I feel terrible.
why did you stop at using the word “crucifixion” to describe, uh, something you think people would do to you (I guess?) that would in all likelihood fall hyperbolically short of the actual physical act… why didn’t you lean harder into your, er, choice of tortured metaphor and use a term depicting some even more horrific real-life atrocity “white people” have frequently committed to terrorize people of color and enemies?
One for stunning, two for brave.
Love to expose friends & colleagues for clout instead of just fucking having a conversation with them beforehand. Woke liberalism is a blank check for weirdos w personality disorders.
Why be honest with a friend when you can shame them on their podcast and then get paid to write a shitty over-written a.v. club article?
You didn’t really “ruin” it. You helped educate in a thoughtful manner. Too many people would have just gone to twitter, tag the podcast, and went on a long, retweeted rant that made half of the people outraged, half defensive, and solved nothing. You went on, talked about things in a thoughtful manner, and served to educate. We need more people like you in general. Thank you for what you’ve done.
I appreciated him calling out how he felt. However.There has been a strong push in recent years to hire people of x identity, to only have people of x identity tell stories about people with x identity, to scrutinize the percentages of people of x identity working at companies. And then there has been a subsequent pushback by people of x identity about feeling tokenized, or feeling that the companies that hire them because they represent x identity or because they can tell story about x identity aren’t seeing them as whole people. Joey himself points out that there are only a handful of native comedians while in the same breath criticizing Heather and Nick for not having more natives on their show, and criticizing them for having a native on the show to bring a native perspective as if they were only doing it in a cynical attempt to get “woke points” (to quote the Yo is this racist episode about the incident) and not because, misguided as it may have been, they were trying to include a native in a discussion about an offensive game about natives. Maybe part of the issue is how we are talking about and conceptualizing identity politics in the first place. It seems like we create a lose-lose situation for all involved. Well-meaning majority culture people who want to be inclusive get called out for being tokenizing. Minority populations end up feeling reduced to their identity as a minority. What I hear sometimes is this conflicting message that we both need to center and prioritize the voices of non-majority people, and yet it is deeply offensive to center the identity of a non-majority person on their non-majority identity.
Awww yeah! Dunk on whitey, son! A well deserved victory lap! I’m sure life’s been tough with such a dark complexion. Let’s all ignore the fact that your entire career IS tokenism. I’m Hope your back isn’t too sore from all the woke pats.
lol, who is that AIDS patient hahaha, nice way to stay relative – to ruin comedy, lol. Go suck a dick, your father’s waiting
lol, who is that AIDS patient hahaha, nice way to stay relative – to ruin comedy, lol. Go suck a dick, your father’s waiting
I just listened to this episode while relaxing in the tub and playing Fire Emblem. Needless to say, things got very unrelaxing. The points Joey brings up are things I never would have thought about, but once he said them I am like “Oh my god. Of course. Why would anyone have done that?”
I really loved this episode because it created a really thoughtful conversation and showed how no matter how well-meaning you may be you can hurt those around you if you really don’t think about things like tokenization or the bad optics of inviting someone for the first time to talk about a game involving rape of indigenous people.
I also loved how willing Heather and Adam were to have this conversation and they did not shy away from accepting the blame and continuing the talk to know how they can fix the issue and work better in the future. It definitely helped cement this as one of my favorite podcasts. Where else can you find both a thoughtful and respectful conversation about tokenization as well as listening to people groan over having to play Shadow the Hedgehog?
I think I’ll skip the follow-up episode. Heather, Nick, and Matt’s idea for this episode was not something I would have ever attempted, because I would be terrified to have a discussion about race. And yes I think it was a bad idea and very insensitive.
That being said you could have “educated” them and discussed it with them as “friends” in private instead of the absolute abuse I just heard on this show. The manipulation from you in this episode is next level insane and kind of impressive. Letting them know you’ve already discussed this with mutual friends right before the passive-aggressive “this will probably never see the light of day” to pressure them into releasing it because otherwise you’ll tell everyone.
I was really on the fence about how I felt about it until reading this article. This absolute self-serving pompous hyperbolic crap made it really clear that no, you weren’t trying to provide a public service for your culture, you were making a publicity stunt at the expense of your “friends.” Bravo.