Quick quiz: When John Oliver concludes a Last Week Tonight story with the following, exasperated pronouncement, what is he talking about?
It doesn’t belong to white people, doesn’t affect white people, and white people don’t really need to have an opinion on it.
And before out there anyone interrupts by noting, “Not all white people,” Oliver had a preemptive admonition for that, advising, “Look inside yourself and figure out why that is your response to things.”
Times up—it’s Black hair! That was the subject of Oliver’s main story on Sunday, a topic the definitively not-Black host was quick to point out was not the ideal subject for a pasty British guy whose own hair looks like he goes to “and old-timey barber named Valentino” and asks for “the tidy Liza Minelli.” Still, Oliver will put himself (and his staff) into deep research mode on everything from predatory lenders to the practice whereby old white plutocrats fuck around and find out by filing nuisance suits against a motivated Brit with HBO Legal’s deep pockets and a taste for comedy blood.
So Oliver did his usual in-depth exposé of just how, constitutionally, white people are incapable of keeping their metaphorical and all-too-literal hands off of Black people’s chosen hairstyles. (Go ahead and ask a Walmart manager why the Black hair products are locked up while the equally expensive white ones are sitting untended on the shelves.) Along the way, there were the usual cases of outed representative villainy, like the Banana Republic manager (since fired) who demanded a young clerk “just take out” her long, elaborately braided hair, because it looked “too urban” for a place called freaking Banana Republic. Or Chastity Jones, a Black woman denied a job for having dreadlocks because a (white) judge eventually ruled that discrimination laws don’t extend above Black people’s hairlines.
Then there’s Utah Republican (white) lawmaker Derrin Owens, who was seen voting against an anti-discrimination CROWN Act after first assuring a trio of aghast Black women that he, personally, thought little Black kids with cornrows were adorable, and he had the surreptitiously snapped photos on his phone to prove it. Or the Penn State alumnus (one David Peterson) who penned an irate letter to his alma mater because star football player, honor student, and Black person (guess which one mattered most to Peterson) Jonathan Sutherland dared wear his hair long enough to be seen outside his CTE-prevention helmet. Oliver rebuffed the now-sweaty Peterson’s explanation that he was just thinking of people’s impressions of Penn State by noting that Peterson graduated in the same year as disgraced and imprisoned Penn State coach Jerry Sandusky, so, yeah.
Still, John Oliver is, self-confessedly, not the guy to make the point that Black people’s hair is none of white America’s goddamned business, no matter how elaborately he’s learned the proper procedure for applying a lace-front cornrow wig. (Yes, there was a fashion show where white models just appropriated Black hairstyles in the klutziest way possible.) Bringing in a trio of more qualified Black celebrities to helpfully advise Oliver’s white viewership, Oliver threw to the equally delightful, variously styled likes of Craig Robinson, Uzo Aduba, and Leslie Jones, who patiently (well, at first) walked viewers through the issue. You know, like don’t touch Black people’s hair. Just do not. And, hey, there’s this thing called “Google.” As the trio noted, if the pandemic has taught us anything, it’s that we can learn how to do literally everything online. Settlers Of Catan, sourdough starter—anything. Google it. “It can be fucking Bing!,” Leslie roared, “You can learn what the fuck a box braid is, bitch!” Of course, maybe you’re not an internet person, in which case the smiling Robinson teed up a gentle alternative. “Fucking off is always an option,” advised Jones.
146 Comments
You know what makes comedy shows even better?Pre-explaining every single joke in print form in a review of it.
Actually, having moved back to the UK from the US, I now appreciate this approach as YouTube Last Week Tonight videos are blocked in the UK. It may not be as good as watching Oliver’s delivery, but at least I get an update on what excellent causes he’s pushing.
That’s legit. But how well do the jokes themselves land after Dennis has dissected each one with a run-on sentence that spans 6 lines of text?
Awkwardly – but better than not landing at all.
If you don’t already, I recommend the excellent and free Bugle podcast which John Oliver used to do with Andy Zaltman but now it has various comedians appearing as co-hosts. Oh and Chris of course, who knows what he can do.
Do what I do – install Opera, and set the VPN that it provides in Private Mode to “Americas”. (Or use a paid VPN, because Opera’s is quite slow.)
Why is it not racist to say people of a certain race can’t talk about certain topics, again? I assume, furthermore, that all of these articles and admonitions are going to go one way, only. But that doesn’t change the core principle, behind it, either way.Why couldn’t a black person talk about white hair? I’m sure you could do some articles about that, one, too. But I’m sure you wouldn’t, either.But I’m sure you would advise me not to talk about that!
As someone not from the US I find this concept so stupid and these type of articles so outstandingly pointless.
Congrats on reaching an enlightened state of racial equity wherever you are. Over here we’ve still got a lot of work to do to dismantle a 400 year old legacy of oppression.
I’m sorry your country’s pop culture is so shit that you’re forced to come here and accidentally learn about systemic racism.
“pop culture”So this is about pop culture? Lol, ok.
The website is about pop culture, which is why you are here. Some of that is a comedian with an HBO show and some of the topics that he talks about. And the AV Club covers what he talks about every week. For three years.
Yep, my country’s pop culture does indeed suck. Fortunately we have actual culture here, you know, not being a shithole and everything.
I’m guessing your country has a healthy dose of racism as well, whether you care to admit it or not.
Feel free to just shut the entire fuck up, in that case.
Good talk, buddy. Keep the door to your echo chamber welded shut.
You’ve contributed exactly nothing to this discourse, and you’re accusing other people of being in an echo chamber? God, it must be hard to be 13 years old AND this fucking stupid. Grow up.
As you try to block me from talking about yours . . . ?
Oh, sorry! Didn’t see that you were saying that to, someone else.
More calls for Censorship from the Intolerant Left. I’ll be where people have actual conversations, about things. When you wake up, maybe you can join us.
Haha, thank you. Yeah, it’s crazy over here. That said, I feel like there are plenty of countries in the modern world also engaged in this insanity. Maybe I’m wrong. Hopefully, I am.
It’s clear you’re not looking for answers in earnest, but the reason it’s inadvisable for white folks to talk critically about black hair is the long history of discrimination based on hair styles and textures. White people don’t have the same challenges, that should be pretty obvious.
I’m white and I had to cut my hair for a job once. People have stupid hangups about hairstyles. It’s dumb but it’s a fact of life.
I wish we could still post our own articles. Your comment captures the issue succinctly.
You’re right, I’m largely making a criticism. That said, to brush off the problems of people because of their race also seems sort of racist, to me. Who’s to say white people don’t have as many problems as blacks? They certainly face a lot more public ridicule and censorship in today’s society. White people are straight-up barred from various conversations, in many parts of American society. That seems like a problem, to me. Someone talked about punching up, on here. Hold me down from replying as you make claims about me, based upon my race, and I’ll show you someone who would seem to be punching up, not down. That said, I agree that in many parts of America, black people have terrible schools and deal with loads of violence in their communities. That’s no good, and that’s a problem worth solving, but the answer isn’t to shift to an imaginary problem of white people having bad opinions.
You’re making bad faith arguments and I’m not sure if it’s just because you’ve heard them so many times in your echo chamber you can’t help but to repeat them, or if you’re aware they’re bullshit and are just trying to stir the pot. In either case, you’re making strawman arguments. Nobody has said white people don’t also have challenges, they’re just not from a position of oppression, and they’re certainly not relevant when we’re talking about who should be involved in the conversation about black hair. You don’t have any understanding of the black experience, nor a dog in the fight of how you should be able to wear your hair, so I’m puzzled why you think it’s so important that your voice be heard when it comes to this topic. And as numerous other commenters have said, nobody is muzzling you. You can say whatever you want, but so can the rest of us. And if we tell you what you’re saying is asinine, instead of getting defensive maybe you should reflect on why what you’re saying seems so ignorant to everyone that responded to you.
Remember that I said nothing about that topic, which may be part of your criticism of me. But the idea that it’s offensive that I would talk about any topic (and notice, I haven’t said here nor there, I haven’t said black hair looks “cool,” or white hair is the best!, or anything like that—I could care less about fucking hair), not because of what I’m saying—which has been nothing, about this—but because of what I look like is offensive to me. And it’s funny, because everyone seems to also have no problem with speaking about white people and white men and big Bad whities, as if it’s “their place.” And, you know what? If you have something logical to say, then go, for it. But it’s a double-standard to begin with, and then it’s all the more demeaning because you’re saying certain people, based on skin, shouldn’t talk about certain things, in the first place.And, beyond all *that*, we’re all oppressed. I’m forced to fund the same evil government that you are, or I get thrown in jail. They’re just separating us into factions based on fucking “race,” possibly intentionally so that we don’t realize that we’re all literal slaves to the government. And you, I would imagine, based on what you’re saying, would get all high-and-mighty and say that you have it worse. Because why? You know nothing about me and where I came from. Except that I’m a prisoner of the Government, same as You.
What you need to do is look at yourself and ask “why is it so important for me to voice my opinion on black bodies”. Because, as much as you keep saying you haven’t actually commented on that topic, your original comment stems from being told you shouldn’t. Why is that such an issue for you? Bear in mind that arguing “because I should be able to say whatever I want” is bullshit, because it’s already been established that you can. Why do you think your voice is necessary when it comes to this topic? What is it you’re rallying so hard against? Hint: it isn’t oppression.
Hold me down from replying as you make claims about me, based upon my race, and I’ll show you someone who would seem to be punching up, not down.Who’s holding you down? The people who are criticizing you for the things you said? Is the idea of taking responsibility for your actions so foreign to you think it must be the same thing as racism? When white people complain about being “censored” or “barred from various conversations,” they’re just being criticized for their (often ignorant) actions, but they (like you) have so little context for being criticized, that they think it must be persecution.
You win the ‘stupidest comment on the Internet’ award today!
It’s a pile of shit, just like your comment! Don’t try to polish it, because you can’t.
You can also respond to someone’s points, and it’s often better, and leads to having a Conversation.
You want me to polish that turd for you?
You win the ‘stupidest comment on the Internet’ award today!
It’s a pile of shit, just like your comment! Don’t try to polish it, because you can’t.
Hey, genius, it’s one thing to talk about it, but it helps if you actually speak about it intelligently and admit when you don’t know something, which if you actually read the fucking article or saw the show, you’d know was not the point anyway. They’re talking about actual discrimination against black people by white people who either don’t like, understand or respect black hair. The topic isn’t the hair itself, it’s the black people who’ve been targets of ignorant and bigoted white people. Understand now? If you want to say “I don’t find box braids attractive,” fine, go right ahead. If you say “I don’t like your box braids and think they look too unprofessional for this office, so either cut them off or you’re fired,” then go fuck yourself.
Well, now you’re jumping to conclusions. Nowhere in my comment did I say that black people should be fired for their hair, so if you should bunch me in with that kind of comment, and I’m not saying that you would, but there’s a lot of race-flaming going around, here—then we aren’t having a conversation, here.That said, while I’m tempted to make a joke about Michael going into the fridge and seeing a bag with “AV Club” written on it (“I don’t know what I was expecting . . .”), I appreciate your showing what the thrust of this idea was meant to be. That said, while we’re talking at cross-purposes, here, I’d like to reiterate that I think, and I would hope someone wouldn’t have a horrible enough Ideology to dispute me, on this one, that the casual stating of the sentiment that you shouldn’t be able to talk about a certain “topic” if you are a certain race is just “evil,” and is a big problem, too—and I’m sure, a much bigger problem, and a more prevalent one, in modern America than any employer telling a black employee not to have a certain hairstyle. Which as you must know would be so automatically inflammatory, I’m sure that almost one hundred percent of employers wouldn’t touch that idea with a ten-foot pole.
Literally no one has said you “shouldn’t be able” to talk about black topics as a white person, only that there are fucking consequences for doing it. People like you think there should NEVER be consequences for things you say, and that’s fucking moronic. Talk about whatever you want, and then take your dragging on the Internet like an adult. But I doubt you will, because you’re clearly a whiny little piece of shit.
I never said that there “shouldn’t” be consequences, but when people are sounding the drumbeat to more and more topics that are “off-limits” (and, notice, I wasn’t saying specifically that making fun of this or that was good, I was referring to a whole topic being barred from someone in polite, civil discourse because of their race . . .), I think it’s reasonable for people like me to stand up and say, “Hey, that’s not cool.” You can call it being “whiny,” all you want. But that doesn’t address my point of keeping things off-limits because of skin color. Consequences are one thing, saying, “You shouldn’t talk about that at all because you’re white,” is another.
Why? You’re telling them that THEY shouldn’t have that opinion – that’s exactly the same sort of policing that you’re railing against. They have no way to enforce their opinion against you – you’re just mad that they’re mad at you for addressing what they consider taboo subjects.
No one can MAKE you stop talking about anything. But if you know it’s considered rude/offensive to address a topic due to your race, then it’s on you to decide to accept the consequences. One of those consequences is being told you don’t belong in the conversation. You disagree. So what? It’s all just words, and you either don’t care that you’ll offend people, or you do care. Those are your options. Deal with the consequences.
One of us is saying certain people shouldn’t be let into a conversation about things. I am saying that that is a flawed idea, and that everyone should be able to talk about everything.In essence, and you can disagree with this, if you want, I’m saying that in the realm of conversation, it’s about what’s being said, not who’s saying it. And my criticism is that people here and elsewhere seem to want to enforce some kind of idea, going so far as to abuse little children with it in schools, that it’s not about what you say or what you do, it’s about what you were born looking like.You can be racist, all you want, in essence—but I’m going to point it out, for you.
“abuse little children with it in schools”Fuck off, troll. Stop making shit up.
You being ignorant of the Critical Race Theory curriculum is not a win to an argument. But isn’t it convenient if everyone who tells you something that you’re uncomfortable with is a “troll”?For the record, telling children they are morally compromised because of their skin color, at school, is child abuse. If you ever find yourself interested in a case study, go watch Jordan Peterson’s long interview with Grace High School teacher Paul Rossi. If you have any caring in you, you will be floored.
Jordan Peterson is an avowed, open racist and misogynist. And I’m EXTREMELY familiar with CRT, and your misconstrual of it is also classic racism. Be a better person.
It would be easier to talk with a person who made points rather than cliched character attacks. I’ll leave you with this, if you won’t discuss things with me, openly.“But what does speaking up mean in a context in which white students are asked to interrogate their ‘white saviorism,’ but also ‘not make their antiracist practice about them’? We are compelling them to tiptoe through a minefield of double-binds. According to the school’s own standard for discursive violence, this constitutes abuse.“Every student at the school must also sign a ‘Student Life Agreement,’ which requires them to aver that ‘the world as we understand it can be hard and extremely biased,’ that they commit to ‘recognize and acknowledge their biases when we come to school, and interrupt those biases,’ and accept that they will be ‘held accountable should they fall short of the agreement.’ A recent faculty email chain received enthusiastic support for recommending that we ‘”officially” flag students’ who appear ‘resistant’ to the ‘culture we are trying to establish.’”And that culture is one that actually, literally tells them they are guilty of certain things because of the color of their skin, that people with one skin color are oppressors and people with another skin color are oppressed, and if they have anything to say about it, then those are just “White feelings.” That is from an article by Paul Rossi, about his experiences in a school teaching Critical Race Theory, which, unless you will dispute this, seems to me to be a system of telling certain students they are oppressors and certain students they are oppressed. These are children. The only person oppressing them, other than every member of the government and every person actually using force or threat of force on them, isn’t their six-year-old classmate. It’s the fucking Teacher.
You could also just fuck off. That’s always an option.
It depends on what your definition of “racist” is. If your definition is (as it sounds like it is) “any mention of race,” then sure, but that’s a pretty crappy definition of race, especially since it’s used to excuse racist actions that aren’t explicitly admitted to be racist. That’s the “it’s okay to mostly hire and only promote white people as long as you never say it out loud” model.A more meaningful (and standard) definition of “racist” is “discrimination based on race,” which necessitates some kind of unfairness or harm. The problem is, it doesn’t harm white people to tell them they shouldn’t talk ignorantly about black people’s hair. It might make a couple of them uncomfortable or annoyed, but that’s not harm. It also doesn’t reinforce larger patterns of harm. TL;DR racism is about harm, not technicalities, and if it doesn’t harm someone, it’s probably not racism.
A lot of white folks really need to learn that the word “racial” exists so they stop using “racist” incorrectly all the time.
The problem is that those white folks have learned and internalized the superficial rule that “talking about race is racist,” largely because the way that they usually talk about race is, in fact, racist. Then they self-righteously turn around and claim that all the non-white people talking about race must be racist, completely oblivious to the idea of harm, mainly because they’ve never experienced direct harm from racism.
For starters, Black officials and authority figures don’t spend much time trying to fondle, mock, legislate or pass moral judgments on common white hair textures or styles, whereas white officials and authority figures on all levels of our society do those things towards Black hair textures and styles all the damn time.
Discriminating against people’s skin isn’t okay to do in public anymore, so some people just target those same people’s hair instead. That way, they think they have plausible deniability to insist it’s “not about race,” even though it’s obviously targeting specifically non-white types of natural hair and how its treated and styled.
So all that said: do you feel like you have a particular need to share your opinions on the hair of races other than your own? And if so, why is that?
If you’re confused, google “punching up vs punching down.” If you’re concern trolling, just fuck off instead.
White people can (and do) live long, comfortable lives not having to learn anything about Black people and Black culture.Black people have to learn everything they can about “White” culture if they wish to function in mainstream society.So what you end up with is that Black people can speak knowledgeably about White culture, but white people struggle mightily to respond in kind, because they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Why do we have to say there is a culture based on skin color? Is the objective equality and melting-pot or separation and the equation of culture with race? You make a point that I understand, and yet, if that is the dominant “culture,” then what is the problem with that? What separates “white” and “black” culture? And, if I got hired by a company run by black people, which behaviors would I have to adopt in order to fit in?Specificity is important, here. I get that if there are certain things you disagree with in a “culture,” you won’t like it. And, great! Let me know. Since I’m (ostensibly) being reduced to my race and forced into a framework of being a perfect member of white culture, what about that culture do you disagree with? In which ways would you like to not follow it?I’m all ears.
Google it, sea otter.
Spoken like a true expert, and a truly oppressed person, by his race. I feel so sorry for you to sit on such a high horse. Must be so tiring, all day . . . Please, let me know how my being alive continues to offend you, ambiently.
The anthology that I use to teach Composition includes bell hooks’s essay “Straightening Our Hair”, which I always assign, along with a clip from the Chris Rock-narrated documentary Good Hair. This episode will be a welcome addition when those assignments come around again.
thanks for the reminder – i need to re-watch ‘good hair’ because it really rubbed me the wrong way when i first watched it.
Will I be appropriating black culture if I adopt “Fucking off is always an option,” as a manyfeestoo?
At the risk of doing the same, I would say that transcends race.
This is one of the most universal truths in the universe. It is not owned by any creed, race, sex, religion, orientation, species, or dimension. All peoples and animals have the right… nay! The responsibility to recognize that “Fucking off is always an option.”
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Given how 2016-2020 went, it’s progress that we’re back to this point.
This isn’t a criticism of the subject matter, or of John Oliver specifically, but I am growing increasingly tired of the genre of “person staring directly at a camera tries to make funny points about politics.” It was one thing when it was just the Daily Show, but now we have Colbert, Trevor Noah, John Oliver, Seth Myers, Amber Ruffin, Samantha Bee, etc. all doing more or less the same thing. Now that they’re all performing without audiences it’s become really clear just how similar they all are.And I say this as someone who isn’t a “keep politics and entertainment” separate person. I just don’t think any of them are particularly interesting or particularly funny.
I love Colbert, like John Oliver, and am meh about Trevor Noah (he is such an aggressive kiss-ass sometimes), but it feels like I hear basically the same joke on the Daily Show and then minutes later on Colbert; so similar that it’s almost like the same writers work on those shows. Having said that, Colbert in particular helped in no small part maintain my sanity the last few years, as a reminder that what we were seeing was not normal, and even under Biden I hope they will do their part to keep the Dems on their toes and sticking to their promises (e.g. I love that John Oliver called out Biden for not raising the immigrant cap, and especially calling Jen Psaki’s sneering efforts to dodge direct questions about why Biden didn’t raise the cap, and I can’t help thinking this contributed in some small way to his finally raising the cap).
it feels like I hear basically the same joke on the Daily Show and then minutes later on Colbert; so similar that it’s almost like the same writers work on those shows. Having said that, Colbert in particular helped in no small part maintain my sanity the last few years,Honestly, this could have been written at essentially any point in the last decade and a half.
Seconded on Colbert. Especially during Covid, he seems to have captured the whole “lockdown has driven us all a little insane and that’s okay” zeitgeist.
I hear basically the same joke on the Daily Show and then minutes later on Colbert; so similar that it’s almost like the same writers work on those shows. That’s probably because a whole hell of a lot of the writers on these shows have either worked together or have worked on the same show at different times.
I mean, think of the comedy tree that grew off of The Daily Show. Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Samantha Bee, and that’s just in front of the camera.
Though I still find it funny that Mo Rocca went from The Daily Show to CBS Sunday Morning.
oh yeah, a bunch of primarily NY-based liberal comedy shows…that’s gotta be a very incestuous (in the professional sense) group. Add to it what I assume is a heavily Ivy League pedigree for all of them and it just adds up.
I would argue that there are two camps here: one that does politics with a comedic bent (Daily Show, Full Frontal, Last Week Tonight) and one that does comedy with occasional political commentary (Colbert, Meyers).The former has teams of researchers to do political and social causes, I doubt the latter do. One could argue that the latter are co-opting social or political causes for cheap laughs.You can get the exact same programming information about social and political issues watching Frontline as you do Last Week Tonight, but way more people watch Last Week Tonight than Frontline because of the comedic elements (LWT often uses clips from Frontline).Also, the Daily Show and Last Week Tonight are very different; LWT is generally a in-depth one-topic show, while the Daily Show is literally just that, a daily news show. I can’t comment on Full Frontal.
you know that no one is forcing you to watch ALL of them, right?!
it’s not like the MCU where if you miss an episode you might not know how Sam Bee got to be the new Captain America because Jimmy Fallon wiped out half of the other hosts using the infinity stones.
I think I love you for that mashup.
Okay. . . . but doesn’t this just fall into the “you don’t have to watch genres you don’t like” category?
I mean, I’m not a particular fan of the “bunch of women talk about nothing and occasionally get snippy” genre, but that’s why I don’t watch “The View” “The Talk” or “The Chat” or whatever else those shows are called. I’m also not a huge fan of the cop procedural genre, the “sexy doctors have sex” genre, the “dumb people go to TV court” genre, the “dumb people figure out who’s the real father” genre, or any of a hundred other genres that are CONSTANTLY on TV.
At least there’s a chance of “politically minded comedians do political comedy” doing some good, even if they do tend to land on the same joke most of the time (which, considering most of the writers on these shows all worked together at some point, is understandable.)
That’s fair, although I don’t feel like I’m telling other people not to watch as much as I am complaining because I’m a curmudgeon.My girlfriend watches all of the names I mentioned above, so throughout the day I am constantly hearing the same schtick repeated by a half-dozen different voices. As someone who considers himself a comedy fan I don’t find their jokes particularly amusing, and as someone who considers myself very politically active I don’t find their insights to be all that profound.
As someone who considers himself a comedy fan I don’t find their jokes particularly amusing, and as someone who considers myself very politically active I don’t find their insights to be all that profound.I get how it can become repetitive if you’re kind of stuck with it, though I do think you’re judging based on the wrong criteria. I don’t think any of the people would call what they do “insight” (rather, just pointing out the screamingly obvious to an audience who might not have heard that particular thing, yet).
As for the comedy, I just think you’ve got to grade on a curve. Comedy writing five nights a week is really fucking hard to do. Hell, weekly comedy writing is really fucking hard. Even the very best years (or even episodes) of SNL miss about 60% of the time.
Even the world’s funniest comedians have refined and workshopped material over months or years to get one really funny one hour special.
So…. the problem is less about what’s behind the screen… and more about needing to do a better job communicating with your gf on how to use earbuds so you don’t have to listen (or negotiating a mutual accepted video watchlist?)
I mean, if you don’t like fish… but your girlfriend cooks fish in the microwave, you are in a similar situation… just replaced with a different personal preference/pet-peeve. Are you going to be like “I really am getting tired of people serving Gadid fish… cod, scrod, haddock, pollock.”
I would counter that attempts at profundity are actually detrimental to such shows, and suspect that if you ranked these hosts from worst to best you would find the worst are also the ones who work the hardest to present their material as profound insight.That particular criticism just strikes me as criticizing a middle school science teacher for not being a Nobel laureate in physics.The unamusing part of your critique is pretty fair, though. Oliver—and I’ll point out here that I do mostly enjoy watching LWT—in particular leans hard on the “prim Brit talks a lot about fucking” category of jokes. Colbert plays the “the joke is that the joke is bad” card way too much, and as of the last time I watched any of the rest of the DS alumni, none of the rest of them had yet figured out how to adapt a 3-minute segment persona to a 30-minute format.
This. I’d rather have a tooth pulled than watch “chick flicks” (my late husband was rather fond of them, actually – when you’re 6’3″ and look like a lumberjack, you can get away with that… 😉 ) – I don’t down them because I’m not a judge – maybe they’re *good* as chick flicks – who knows?
Horses for courses and all that – if I don’t like the genre, unless it’s so egregiously bad (horrible production values, say – when production values aren’t the point) – if I don’t enjoy the genre, I figure I’ve got nothing valid to say on the subject.
Not saying I *don’t* – just that there’s no reason anyone should listen to it.
Well, I think part of the issue is, it’s not really a genre you’re meant to be watching all of. Typically I just watch John Oliver and maybe some Daily Show clips.
The internet has made late-night comedy shows weird, because now you can see it all. But 20 years ago you would have had to pick one or two.
It’s normal for an echo chamber to get old & mundane after awhile. I appreciate when I become aware of it as it reminds me I’m not that old yet.
John Oliver’s show is generally different because he does deep dives into his topics without any “interview” segment to take up half his time. I can’t think of a single other comedy-news show that gets as in-depth as Last Week Tonight.
I like John Oliver and respect how much research his staff does on topics, but even his show has gotten really formulaic:[Title card says “Microplastic Beads”]:John Oliver: Microplastic Beads: Not the ones your overly experimental ex wanted to put in your bum. I told you Jason, I’m just not comfortable with that yet!*audience laughs**several clips from PBS, CNN, etc. to explain the problem**several clips of various assholes making the problem worse**video or skit featuring celebrities with a call to action*Boom, another episode in the can.
And yet he seems to take a week off every month
I mean, it’s easy to be overly reductive about a TV show format, but I’m not sure what that’s supposed to demonstrate. You think the LWT team puts all that together in five minutes with no effort?
What is a weekly show that isn’t “formulaic,” or can’t be reduced to absurdity like you just did with John Oliver?
There’s no such thing as “politics”. It’s a phrase rich people made up so you won’t be interested in what they’re about to do to you.
i think of it as the gossip section of policy-making.
I think that’s why Colbert stands out. Sure, it’s one guy talking into the camera. But he’s made it into a much more relaxed atmosphere. I’m pretty sure half the time he’s drunk, and he’s clearly doing some of the bits because they make him laugh. It’s sort of unfortunate that John Oliver’s show before covid was basically what he’s doing now.
I hear you. I get that you feel like you’ve seen too many of them but I also feel like you don’t have to consume media you don’t like. Even if they land in the same place, on certain topics, what’s most interesting and how they each have their own niche of subject matter that they focus on and that many of their audiences may never have heard anything about. For example, I’ve never heard any show ANYWHERE that wasn’t directly marketed as a show only for black people discuss the politicization and policing of our hair. Yet, John Oliver is the type of host who goes into deep detail on these kinds of subjects – things that are real phenomena in the world that have actual impacts but that a lot of people don’t talk or know much about. Similarly, The Daily Show has a few key things that stick out (I’ll grant you, Trevor Noah is not actually the big one here) like Jordan Klepper’s field pieces or CP Time covering pieces of Black history and achievement that are unfamiliar even to many black people. Sam Bee tends to go in depth on women’s issues as well. The thing is, a lot of these people and their writers are friends. Most of the people we’re talking about here literally worked on the same show! So, in that sense it’s unsurprising that many of the jokes sound familiar. That said, I don’t think that it makes sense for this genre to be analyzed merely by whether you’ve heard a joke before (btw, I don’t think that a joke you’ve heard 3 times in the same week is necessarily a bad one either – it’s just a joke you’ve heard 3 times in the same week which may have more to do with your watching habits than the joke itself). This is a genre that aims to entertain AND teach you something. Once upon a time, Jon Stewart said that he was a comedian first and that was his primary job. I don’t think many of these comedians see themselves that way anymore. I think they see themselves as people who have the power to inform and foment introspection, conversation, and promote change – the way they believe they can best do that, though, is with a few punchlines.
And while I don’t want to be that person who just yells, “If you don’t like it, leave!”, I do think it’s important to recognize that many people only watch one or two of these shows at all. From the perspective of those people, they like watching that specific show because of what it affords them. Perhaps you might find you appreciate anyone of these shows more (or maybe you wont – I don’t know) if you pick your favorite and just watch that instead.
Man, you’re going to be SUPER pissed when you hear about this up and coming Johnny Carson fella. I hear he makes a LOT of political jokes on his nightly broadcast.
I wonder if Leno or Letterman ever made a political joke.
I literally wrote:
And I say this as someone who isn’t a “keep politics and entertainment”
separate person. I just don’t think any of them are particularly
interesting or particularly funny.
But clearly the issue is that I’m some fuddy-duddy who thinks politics are dumb, even though I’m the guy donating/volunteering for shit like the Wisconsin state superintendent position.
The issue is that you’re repeatedly trying to justify not liking it, instead of just moving on to the next topic. Like, you don’t get to come here and state your opinion and then get snippy when people tell you they think you have a dumb opinion.
I don’t think I’m particularly being snippy. The guy was criticizing me for something I specifically said I didn’t have a problem with.I fully get that a lot of people like political comedy shows, because if they weren’t popular there wouldn’t be so many of them. My initial comment was me speaking for myself only.
You’re probably right that the market is oversaturated, but that’s for television producers and advertisers to sort out. As a viewer, I just watch the ones that I enjoy.Your point seems to be that you don’t enjoy any of them, to which I say:
As someone who is a big fan of Colbert, Meyers, Noah, and Oliver, at one point I was watching all of them, I felt there was enough variety until about halfway through Trump’s term. Then it got very samey so I switched to just Cobert and Oliver. Oliver being great since he goes quite in depth on a variation of topics.
If I could make a recommend, if you’re into the entertaining info but want a slightly different format, try out Hasan Minhaj’s Patriot Act. I think the full episodes are on both Youtube and Netflix. Two seasons worth. Its a look into where this sort of thing can go in future.
I was informed that this IS comedy now, that comedy “without a point” is dead. I don’t know how true that is, but I have been repeatedly told that. That said, I really enjoy political comedy, even if I feel like nobody has ever been as good at it as Jon Stewart. He often challenged his audience, rather than, as is so often the case these days, just giving them stuff to clap at.
It felt like a vital format fifteen years ago, thanks to Stewart, Colbert, and the teams around them. But for at least as long as it felt vital, it has subsequently felt instead formulaic, predictable and ubiquitous.
Oliver and last week tonight are really the last hold out of long form investigative journalism on TV. They have no fucks to give or advertisers to placate. HBO does not care if people are pissed.
It’s been comedic open season on politics—and comics when they bomb—since the days of Comicus the stand-up philosopher.
Some people are so gruesome, I am completely baffled as to why they’re allowed on TV.
“You can learn what the fuck a box spread is, bitch!”I believe she said “box braid”. A box spread is a thing, but it doesn’t appear to have anything to do with hair.I’m always aghast when Black people talk about white people pawing at their hair. I’ve also never grabbed a pregnant woman’s belly, which is apparently something a perplexingly large amount of people feel entitled to do. Mom raised me to keep my fucking hands to myself.I’ve never heard that Black haircare products are kept locked up, but well, I 100% believe it.
I’m white with waist-length hair and I absolutely get people grabbing at my hair and “petting” it, I can’t begin to imagine the hell women of color go through. People just need to keep their hands off other people unless they are invited.
It sounds like you could definitely imagine it. Isn’t it the exact same phenomenon?
Yeah, that always gets me too. I mean, I can absolutely see myself trying to be complimentary and going way overboard about someone’s hair to the point of discomfort, because I’m an awkward white dude and that’s kind of what we do. But the idea of just, like, touching a stranger’s hair out of nowhere is just totally alien to me.Which isn’t to say it doesn’t happen. I have no doubt it does. But the extent of people’s rudeness is always kind of mind-boggling to me.
It’s weird though how that issue only gets talked about in terms of white people touching black people’s hair, but it really should just be a general “don’t touch anybody else’s hair without permission”. Can we just make that a general rule for everybody? It’s crossing a line regardless of the race of the people involved.
I think we can just stop at don’t touch anyone else. You don’t need to be feeling up anyone unless they are asking for it.
Imagine how much better of a place the world would be if the message were simply “don’t touch people without permission.”
Are you really going with “all hair matters”?
No, I’m just saying that the way it’s talked about gives the impression that it’s somehow a unique thing among black people, when in fact people should just be taught to keep their hands to themselves in general. If the message is just a blanket “don’t touch other people’s body/hair without permission”, it’s more likely to catch on among the general population and result in less black people having their hair touched. If people think it’s somehow okay to just walk up to a stranger and put your hands in their hair, it’s a harder fight to convince them that they can’t do it to a black person.
So you are going with All Hair Matters. Fascinating.
My wife was ready to punch people who reached over and felt her belly when she was pregnant, like she was an exhibit in a science museum.
There’s something ironic about the writer going to such lengths to explain the jokes in a piece on white people being clueless about black hair, and then fumbling at the one-yard line over a basic black hair term like box braids. I mean, it’s not a terrible transgression or anything, but it does sort of unintentionally drive home Oliver’s point. (Glad it got fixed in the original post). Like you, I’ve never understood the touching because my parents were fucking militant about us keeping our goddamn hands to ourselves.
A box spread is a like a strategy in Options investing. That I don’t remotely understand.
Please enjoy this clip of a very drunk Cameron Diaz running her fingers through Richard Ayoade’s hair, but only after a long discussion about pubic hair, which I think makes it ok.
Richard, who is quite well known to not like being touched.
In my country its a little strange. I’m all about keeping my hands to myself. But when I say black women will touch my white beard all the time. I was once grabbed by my arm taken from the table I was at to a group of black women and then offered by the woman dragging me to the others to all feel my 3 year long beard. It’s odd behaviour, I wonder what drives it. I don’t understand it when mypipo do it to others and I don’t understand when it happens to me.
I’m a white Canadian woman, and it would never in a million years occur to me to comment on, try to touch, ask for explanations about, or discriminate against someone’s hair.
I think the only thing you’re allowed to say about someone else’s hair is ‘I like your hairstyle!’
If you’re thinking of saying something else, just keep it to yourself.
I used to compliment female co-workers on their hairstyles, but I won’t even do that any longer, trying to avoid conversations with HR is a priority of mine. Just let people do their thing.
Saying nothing is also acceptable.
Unless you’re a guy on a bad sitcom and your girlfriend is asking if you notice anything different about her.
Yeah. I’m not a sitcom character, though, so my response to that question would be the “Fun At Work” arc of the webcomic El Goonish Shive. ( https://www.egscomics.com/egsnp/2017-04-10-fun-at-work-1 ) (Not canon to the main comic, though some NP arcs are.)
There’s a clear line between being complimentary and inappropriate, why would you need to worry about HR?
100% CORRECTAMUNDO
“ Oh shit! Your hair is on fire!”
is also acceptable in certain circumstances.
But would you inherently give less care, to the point of torture, for Indigenous people, Canadian lady?
Hello fellow white Canadian lady! I’m just here to add that never in my life has someone touched my hair unless it was my brother trying to pull it when I was a kid or I was paying/asking someone to make it pretty. It’s really weird to me that black people have to deal with randos grabbing at their head.
C’mon, we’re talking about a race that after centuries of lynchings and being shackled…willingly choose to style their hair like rope and wear fake gold chains, lol!
Still confused why someone would touch a stranger, in public no less. Before race even enters the conversation, this is someone you do not know; why would you even consider touching them? Side note, hair is neat. I’m glad people feel comfortable letting their hair look how it naturally would. It’s different from what I’m used to seeing. I like that.
Because I’m sure everyone wants to hear the opinion of a bald white guy, here you go.I don’t get any of this. First off, why would you ever want to touch anyone’s hair, with or without their consent? Is this a thing? I just assume that other peoples hair is gross, it might be sticky, or greasy, or have bugs in it. Keep it away from me and I’ll do the same, tyvm.Second off, why would you care how anyone else wears their hair, ever? Unless you’re working around machinery and it could get tangled up, what’s the big deal? How is anyone ever injured by a white person with dreads, or a black guy with an afro, or a woman with a buzz cut, or anything like that? Mind your own fucking business, there are real problems in the world, stop wasting time with the cosmetic ones.Anyway, rant off, feel free to tell me how awful I am for thinking we should stop making a big deal out of something that’s not a big deal.
Sooo at what point is it NOT okay to paint an entire race with one brush? Because I am absolutely fucking sick and tired of “white people are all the same” posts. I’m not even going to mention that there are entire blogs on why white people are all evil. Fucking get over yourselves. It’s not striving for equality by being racist towards another fucking race.
But….white people evil
Racism requires a component of institutional power. It’s not possible for Black people to be “racist” against whites in the US, because the entire power structure is wielded against Black people, not whites. Black people can (and have every reason to) be biased against white people, but not racist.
Except he is talking about it. Fuck him.
People don’t touch my hair anymore, but boy did they do it while I was growing up. Also, I use to get asked “why don’t you just straighten it?” My point is from my perspective society has gotten better, but I still feel incredibly self-conscious about my hair to the point I’ve asked friend and family to make no comments at all regarding it, even positive one. Last person who touched my hair was a baby who then tried to eat it.
The baby was clearly trying to absorb your soul and imprison it within a bezoar.
(Go ahead and ask a Walmart manager why the Black hair products are locked up while the equally expensive white ones are sitting untended on the shelves.)Does anyone actually know anything about the specifics of this situation. Did someone at Walmart decide unilaterally at some point that “black products” should be locked up (this seems to be the default assumption)… or did these products drift up on theft reports (locally or nationally) so they, as they would with any high-theft product, eventually implemented a policy to lock these products up?There are massively different implications depending on the answer to this question (even if the appropriate response, regardless of the underlying truth, is to stop locking up these products)… but nearly no one seems interested in what is really true and to give any indication that you are interested in what is really true is treated as clear evidence of racism.
It’s apparently because they were more likely to be stolen. You’d also see the Mach 3/5/whatever # they’re up to now razors locked up. Same with condoms.
You know, like don’t touch Black people’s hair. Just do not.People really do this? And how about not touching anyone’s hair unless they give you permission, because that’s just really fucking weird.
As a really generic middle aged white guy I don’t get the touching other peoples hair thing, I haven’t touched or even asked to touch someone’s hair, it is just not something one does. I know when I had a buzz cut growing up people touched my head all the time, maybe that made me respectful of the scalps of others?
….so I watched the whole John Oliver clip. I don’t watch his show because I think he sounds like my mom reading me a “Cathy” comic out loud and then expecting me to laugh at the punchline that she’s spent so long building up to that I have guessed it already, realized it is slightly humorous at best, and not even had the reaction of half-heartedly exhaling through my nose and nodding slightly in an expression of mild entertainment before she says it to me, and then waits with an expectant look on her face for me to break into peals of laughter.So when the headline said, “John Oliver Knows He’s Not The Right Person To Talk About Black Hair” and the accompanying photo in the blurb was Leslie Jones- I thought I’d push play.
There was John Oliver. Talking about Black Hair. For…..23 minutes and 31 seconds, to be exact. Of a, hold on— 24 minute and 23 second long show.
Then, and only then, with 68 seconds left… does more math… which equals a mere 4.6% of the 1,463 total seconds of airtime, does he… …..Shut The Fuck Up and let black people talk about their own hair.So exactly why am I supposed to be impressed at his wokeness today? Go back to reading Cathy comics on YouTube to my mom, John.
What a take. Major wow.
(Go ahead and ask a Walmart manager why the Black hair products are locked up while the equally expensive white ones are sitting untended on the shelves.)I assume it’s because they’re racist shitheels who think that black people are going to shoplift while white people won’t. Is that not it?
Shout out to Elmhurst, A beautiful place to live if you are a white person. Doesn’t surprise me that poor little girl got shit from a racist teacher sadly. My wife and I rented house there when we were first married and it was a very very white place. I am very very white, so I generally didn’t see any issues, but my wife is half Pakistani with dark skinned and she had a very different impression of the town. It got worse once my son was born, when he was a baby he was fairly light skinned so when my wife took him about town solo people just assumed she was the nanny. The most unapologetic and simultaneously oblivious to it racist person I ever met lived next door to us. She would drop racial slurs and bitch about every type of person who was not exactly what she was(IE White, Catholic and Irish). The thing is she had no filter. She once told my wife that it was okay that we lived at the house because we were only renting but she didn’t think the city should allow us to buy the home because we were a mixed couple. The best part about this lady, she was the mayor at the times mom.
This year’s “Stop Telling Women to Smile” meme is here. Once again, there will be many more people excited to police this behavior than actual incidents, and opportunities to shame will have to be strictly rationed. Expect to get lectured about not doing something you had no intention of doing. Let people have their fun.
A better person to make the point is Chris Rock, and he did it with a *documentary* back in 2009
As a white man in my mid ‘50s I can, with all honesty, say that no one cares about my hair. I don’t even care much about it myself unless it gets too long. My hair care regimen consists of whatever bar soap I picked up with the groceries last week and going over it once a month with a #8 clipper.Don’t get me wrong, I do like having hair. My skull isn’t a good shape for being bald and I’m not a big fan of hats. I’ve been progressively getting grayer over the last few years, but have managed to keep a full head of it. As the saying goes, it doesn’t matter to me what it turns as long as it doesn’t turn loose.I feel that makes me supremely qualified to have absolutely nothing to offer on the subject of other people’s hair, other than to be aware that most of the them I’ve met have it, except for the bald ones. As mentioned above, my knowledge of hair care is rudimentary at best. Wash. Towel. Comb. Move on. I actually put more thought into the shampoo I buy for my dog. I totally agree with Oliver that for me to have any kind of opinion on the matter is pretty ludicrous, except to admit that I don’t know squat about it. Even more so when it comes to the finer points of ethnic hair care. The one opinion I do have on the matter is this: what people want and need to do to keep their coifs in order is one of those personal freedoms that other people should not infringe upon. To me, that seems to be the easy thing to do—just respecting that it’s not something I should be concerning myself with because it’s really none of my damned business.