One of my favorite narrative tricks is when a writer manages to hide something in plain sight. I don’t necessarily mean that in a mystery, Agatha Christie-esque sense, though that’s always fun, too. I mean when a piece of the story sits there in plain sight, yet unobserved, and then it all comes together in a deliciously casual way, as if the writers are merely tossing their heads in the direction of the thing you overlooked. When you revisit it, it’s there in plain sight.
There are a couple of those in “Egg MacGuffin,” but the one that really matters isn’t the egg that turns out to matter quite a lot. The one that really matters is Gary’s damned nipple, both literally and metaphorically.
“Egg MacGuffin” isn’t the first episode to demonstrate that Gary (Adam Tsekhman, invaluable for this episode and, frankly, the series) has a bit of a dark or even ugly side. The biggest example was his probably weird negging of Mona, and a certain sense that he felt entitled to her affections that went along with it, but there are others. Fleeting, but there. There’s even one in this very episode, as we hear Gary crying in a bathroom stall seconds before he emerges, dry-eyed and cheery, to answer Ray’s call and come running.
It was subtle, but there all along. Even more obvious and ever-present: The constant, low-level impatience, carelessness, unkindness, and even cruelty exhibited toward Gary from every corner. Hell, it happens a number of times in this episode alone, but only one stands out—the last, delivered by Constantine, which arrives after Neron’s seduction of Gary is already in process. It stands out precisely because the writers have done one of those appealing, casual nods of the head and underlined it; it is in no other way any different from the sorts of things often said to Gary in this and every other episode in which he appears. But there’s one key word that Gary misses, which would have made the whole more palatable previously: the word “we.” If there’s one proof that Gary has fully gone over to the dark side, it’s that the verbal abuse means more to him than the fact that he’s included in that “we.”
It’s too early to actually get into if and how Legends is exploring the idea of the put-upon nice guy as a potentially toxic figure, and if and how those who surround others with casual but not pointed cruelty are responsible for their descents into darkness. But the show certainly went out of its way to demonstrate once again that Gary’s cheeriness is a facade, right before he reconnected his infernal nipple to his body in the single weirdest, funniest, most upsetting pacts with the demon these eyes have ever seen.
The Neron story lives exactly in that spot, actually, somehow dangling between strange, slapstick comedy and life-and-death, deadly serious struggle. It’s a credit to both Tsekhman and Brandon Routh that the episode works at all. Had they strayed too far to one side or the other, it would sink like a stone with a hell-blasted nipple stuck to the bottom. Instead, Routh does broad physical comedy without cracking jokes, and Tsekhman takes that inching nipple perfectly seriously. It’s a bonkers combination, and a perfectly Legends one. I honestly can’t believe it works, but it definitely works.
Much of that is due to the work the show has already done in developing these characters, sweet Ray-Ray in particular. We know Ray so well that we already understand he’d rather cut off his hand than use it to wound a friend. We watched him throw himself into an insane amount of danger when he thought there was a chance of saving the then-possessed Nora, after he fatally wounded her. We know much of his childhood was defined by loneliness and the wish for friends. So when Nate shows up, it’s the worst of all possible worlds—and the choice to give up his autonomy and, you know, soul to Neron makes sense, when the alternative is holding the knife that kills his Time-Bro.
Ray’s story also works well as a companion piece to the Sara-dons-the Death-Totem episode from last season, and while structurally the episodes are very different, the similarities make such a comparison worthwhile. In both cases, a supernatural element forces the protagonist to confront one or more of their worst fears, and the things about them they least prize. Sara’s essentially lost for most of the episode, so hers is a struggle back; Ray’s is a story about struggling to get the better of potent, deeply damaging impulses. Both are largely successful with some hiccups—and here I must acknowledge that one of them is that Routh, one of the most reliably engaging performers on a show full of them, seems oddly uncomfortable in all the Neron mirror scenes, though he’s great by episode’s end.
There’s a lot more to unpack—Nora’s official entry into the time bureau, the fact that Nate and Zari skipped right past won’t they and into will-they (much more successfully than I predicted, truth be told), Mick’s slow-burn journey into accepting and saying openly that he’s a writer (the Rebecca Silver, in fact), and Sara joining that book club—and not a lot of review left, so let’s do them quickly. The first two feel like new chapters for the series, with Nora now properly in the fold and trusted by the person least disposed to do so initially, and Nate and Zari doing full Indiana Jones cosplay in an effort to get the audience on board—again, successfully, at least for this writer, particularly when they arrived at the where doesn’t it hurt moment. Sara and Ava are mostly observing this week, but their brief storyline feels like the new status quo, rather than the turn of a page. Mick’s storyline feels oddly like the end of something, but we’ll talk more about that next week.
Stray observations
- Next week’s episode is called “Nip/Stuck,” a title that was already a little funny before its meaning became clear. His NIP, it STUCK back on his chest.
- This week, in Legends does right by women: Nate and Zari face down that scene of Catherine Zeta-Jones’ from Entrapment, and it’s Nate who does the contorting.
- Part of Nate and Zari’s story tonight is essentially the premise of Game Night, which you should watch, as it is a blast.
- Why the fuck not?: A demon promises to make Gary “whole” again, which in this case means both making him feel powerful and in control, and literally replacing his damned nipple. And that’s damned, as in cursed, and nipple, as in nipple, which inches across the floor of its own volition. There are loads of WTFNs in this episode, though.
- Line-reading of the week: “Boom boom.” Runner up: “The book from book club!”
- Gideon, what’s the most meta moment?: Let’s go with the entire sub-plot in which a writer defends his fans at a con against a person who looks down on them and assumes the relationship is totally mercenary. I assume that means the LoT writers love your cosplay, y’all. (I have seen many Constantines but sadly few of the other Legends at cons.)
- Speaking of cosplay, loved seeing all those Garimas.
- Updated season four episode title ranking: 13 and 12 (tie). Witch Hunt 11. Dancing Queen 10 and 9 (tie). Tagumo Attacks!!! and Lucha De Apuestas 8. Tender Is The Nate 7. The Eggplant, The Witch, And The Wardrobe 6. Egg MacGuffin (Works in concert with the episode to trick the viewer into assuming the egg is pointless, only dinged because it’s not super funny) 5. Hell No, Dolly! 4. Wet Hot American Bummer 3. Séance And Sensibility 2.The Virgin Gary 1. Legends Of To-Meow-Meow.
- Arrow corner: “Spartan” — Bring back Ernie Hudson more! That was fun. Having a very hard time getting invested in the Emiko story, but enjoyed multiple generations of Diggle secrets. “Confessions” — This was a surprising sort of formal experiment for the show. Sort of Rashomon lite. I mostly really liked it. Again, the Emiko stuff doesn’t thrill me, but the first two thirds of the episode were pretty damn interesting and I definitely wasn’t expecting to see Oliver sandwiched between pieces of building.
- Here’s this week’s Legends in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend song form. This one goes out to Sara and Ava, betting on their friends’ weird work date.
167 Comments
I’ve been trying to figure out why this season isn’t really working for me personally so far. I think it is a combination of mainly two things. First is that it feels too zany which makes everything feel so inconsequential. As much as I get the Damian fatigue from last season, at least he was a core menacing presence there, while this season is too hi-jinksy. Things got even worse when that amusement park twist happened as that was so insanely stupid that it essentially made it impossible to take anything seriously afterwards.The second reason, and this has been my pet peeve with this show for a while, but feels worse now, is how allergic the show seems to be to the concept of consequences and responsibilities. I mean Mick never apologized for the clone line, Ray was never held responsible for allowing a mass murderer to escape because he found her attractive, Mona didn’t really have to consider her actions for almost killing someone for just telling her that love doesn’t solve everything. It’s always the others who are wrong and while that has been true for several seasons, this season it is really hurting those character dynamics. Again for me naturally.Third reason is naturally Mona because, seriously, Jesus Christ she is an infuriating little snowflake.
I hear you on all of these.This season isn’t working for me either. And last night is the first time I really started to check out.
I agree. Some zaniness works, but you can’t have it at the cost of plot and character development. They need to find that balance between the absurd and good TV. Something closer to the previous seasons would be better, and a more defined and deadly villain like the Legion of Doom.So far I prefer Doom Patrol for my dose of weird DC. It feels more like you are following a story rather than whatever popped in the writers heads and you get more invested in the characters.
LoT has been quite off its game since it came back for season 4. I posed this over in the Flash review last week, but these are some of the problems of the season so far IMO:1. The Time Bureau subplots are almost always the boring parts of the season so far and Nate becomes the character for daddy-son dramas, with Zari suddenly paired up with him as a couple.2. With the focus on catching magical creatures, most of the Legends are rendered useless, thus making the weekly adventures…….a bit boring to be honest. Seriously, they barely use their powers this season.3. The addition and promotion of new and recurring characters, ie. Mona, Gary, Nora Darhk, Ava, and Constantine, make the cast too crowded and the characters from OG/previous seasons are sidelined for the new/promoted characters.There are still some fun episodes here and there but the problems more often than not get in the way of keeping the show fun as a whole.
It doesn’t really work all that much for me either, mainly because:1) Gary is the worst2) Mona is the second-worst3) The show was on hiatus for what felt like 68161451 months and lost quite a bit of momentum4) Nate’s dad wanting to enslave magical beings for entertainment, and the (white) Legends apparently being okay with that, even though Charlie presents as a woman of color5) Nate/Zari feels completely forced6) Gary is still the worst, so much so that I needed to mention it twice
Gary is a tricky one for me. Not because I like him, but because he is, for me, a legitimately offensive character. It didn’t start like that, but they keep making him in to such a joke and removing any sense of humanity from him to the point that I honestly feel at times uncomfortable during his scenes.Also that amusement park stuff is so bad that I can’t even begin with it. Apparently someone wanting to make the mythical creatures in to unwilling soldiers is bad, but forcing them to entertain the masses is just fantastic.
Honestly the only way Gary as a character can be redeemed for me is if Neron leaves Ray’s body and possesses Gary permanently. Low-rent Nutty Professor wannabe turned legitimate threat could actually be interesting, like in a whole “creepy clown is pure evil” kind of way.(I doubt it will happen.)
“Mick’s storyline feels oddly like the end of something, but we’ll talk more about that next week.”What do you mean by that? Are you saying that you know Mick’s leaving the show?Edit: Can someone get me out of the grays so Allison can see my question?
I’m hoping they pump the brakes on the relationship stuff for a bit. I don’t really have anything against Nate and Zari and I genuinely like Sara and Ava, but this episode kinda hit my limit on characters sitting around discussing other characters relationships. On the other hand, Nate and Zari actually got to use their powers and even Sara and Ava got to punch some Nazis, so that was neat.Mick’s bit was genuinely heartwarming. In no universe would I ever have predicted that this is where they would take the character, but the idea of the big oaf finally finding human connection with a bunch of romance novel fans totally worked for me.
When Ava knocked out the one Nazi on the ground with a kick to the face I LOL’d.
Ava and Sara should have at least gotten a line about how fun it was to beat up Nazis together–which Alex after the crossover last year told Sara was definitely as satisfying as she thought it would be.
For couples, we have Sara/Ava, Nate/Zari, and Ray/Nora. I’m hoping that, by the season finale, we have Constantine and Charlie hooking up (possibly while Charlie is shapeshifted into Constantine), prompting Mick and Mona to remark how they’re the only people not paired up. At which point, they start sideeye glancing each other.
Mick would probably be more into Mona in her Wolfie form
I remember there was a period after season 1 where I wondered whether Legends made the right choice removing Snart instead of Mick. We may never know what Wentworth Miller may have done with Captain Cold given a few seasons of continuous development, but the show’s careful use of Mick has really paid off in those choice moments where he chooses to connect with people.
Unexpected Evil Dead reference going into Indiana Jones and Entrapment was almost too much (in a good way) then add on possessed Ray and Evil Gary and his Demon Nipple and… oooh boy.
I got a big laugh on the Entrapment role reversal and the Indy references were on point.
-I really love the Legends as CXG songs feature!-The nipple reunion was so effectively gross. I could hardly look at it wriggling across the floor towards Gary. Ewwwwwwwww. And Gary’s turn to the dark side makes a lot of sense in retrospect- so glad they went with this instead of the idea where Nate would’ve turned evil because of his father.-Sara Lance at book club is the most amazing thing I never knew I needed. Especially cute because just last week Ava was talking about wanting a life and hobbies with her.-Cautiously optimistic on Nate/Zari.-LOVE the way they used the threat of killing someone you love for sealing Ray’s possession. Of course it had to be his best bro Nate that Neron targeted.-Seeing Charlie and Mick together was fun, and yay for Mick being more comfortable as a writer. It also made me miss the Mick+Amaya friendship, though.-Mona really worsted at that convention.Please never be the audience member who asks about some random detail to show how superior of a fan you are.-It’s very Legends that Sara assigned a mission seriously, but in such an obviously shippy way that Nate/Zari assumed she was making it up and thereby put the mission in jeopardy anyway.-COME BACK GIDEON!
So in order to save Gary, are they going to have to cut his nipple off and send it back to hell? (Or maybe he will decide to do this himself).Poor Gary. Even Gideon thought it was funny to rag on him in the timeloop episode when she stuck him in the trash compactor as a joke. And Rip and Wally pantsed him when stealing his time watch for reasons I could never grasp and that angered Ava at the time.
Ewwwwwwwwwwwww yeah the nipple probably has to go back to hell.It’ll be really interesting to see how Ava reacts to Dark Gary. It stood out to me that she was off-ship during the confrontation where he turned.
Good point. Ava likely will have some guilt about not being a good enough mentor for Gary, I think there have been some clues about that already even.
The nipple was indeed gross.My three favorite things about the book club:
1)They had to include Nora2)Sara read the book and Ava didn’t3)The plot of the book actually came in to play“Cautiously optimistic on Nate/Zari” Agreed but I do need Zari playing some video games or hacking sometime soon.
YES, all of those things are great.re: video games, second date? Or maybe she’ll have to hack things to track down Gary.
Either one or both of those things could happen.
Technically Sara didn’t actually read the book. She listened to the audio book…on fast forward.
Going from the book, to the audio book, and then speeding it up not once but twice was a great gag.
That thing with Mona at the convention pissed me off. While it did lead to Mick admitting to being a writer, the way they did it sucked. I wanted her gone from the show after that.
I don’t want to hate on Mona and think in small doses she is funny. I will just say that I don’t think she has made much of a case for herself being a permanent addition to the team.
They have too many regular characters.
And for some reason they just keep adding more.
she knows they are a covert group who often goes undercover for assignments. for all she knew, this might have been a big assignment that her behind decided to blow up because her feelings were het up about her favorite author being a “fraud.” she was basically acting childish.
You know Sara did send them on a real mission, but would anybody put it past (hehe) her to send someone on a time date?
Someday…
The scenes at the adventurers club really was also screaming for a Commander McBragg background character.
Please tell me Mick’s not leaving the show. I don’t think I can handle that and evil Ray at the same time….
When I see the RomantiCon story, I look back to certain stories of the Jeeves and Wooster saga where Bertie is forced into impersonating Rosie M. Banks for his pal Bingo Little. And look what happens as a result. 😉
While I’ve only seen parts of Evil Dead II, I couldn’t help seeing the resemblance when Ray fought to keep his possessed hand under control. And there’s the swirling black mist which surrounds his body, reminiscent of a symbiote.
Right now, I can’t help but find a bit of Peter Pettigrew in Gary.
There were several ED2 references. Enough that I’m surprised they didn’t make it into the review. Ray fighting his possessed hand and saying “Not groovy” several times . . . and the damned nipple moving around on its own felt EXTREMELY Evil Dead.
Gary’s nipple belongs to Hell now!I was hoping Ray would play the Captain Marvel Shazam role from Underworld Unleashed.When they first showed the gold encased in ice, I thought it could be Dr. Fate’s helmet.Why does Nate stop being metal while Ray punches him? If Ray breaks his hand punching him it’d be much harder for Neron to make him kill any loved ones.Have the comics made Heatwave a romance novelist yet? Because that’s something they ought to steal. Did anyone else think Avengers: Endgame & a wider range of canon characters?
I noticed that even when he steeled up, Ray managed to impact him. I’m gonna fanwank that his hands were Neron’d and so possessed superhuman strength (which doesn’t explain how regular Ray managed to keep it from snapping Nate’s neck, but whatever).Also, I love the MCU and Endgame, but the time travel aspects of Endgame don’t match up to anything in LoT. And without a Beebo equivalent, the MCU doesn’t stand a chance against LoT in time-hijinkery.
If Beebo was in the MCU, Thanos wouldn’t have had a chance.
Now I’m kinda wishing it was Dr. Fate’s helmet.
The whole Nate/Zari thing is one of the most spectacular misjudgements of an audience reaction I’ve seen in some time. They so clearly thought everyone would be obsessing over these two and they’d better play it up as much as humanly possible, but everywhere I’ve looked people are not happy at all about the blatant and ongoing queerbaiting that somehow seems to have completely slipped their mind they’re doing.
See I don’t really see the queerbaiting. When Zari said the form Charlie choose was hot there was no indication that was anything more than an observation made between two straight females. Plus I think making their one Muslim character LGBT might be too ballsy even for this show.
I took Charlie’s several flirtations with Zari as Charlie messing with her and that seemed to be how Zari took it, as well. She certainly gave no indication of being into it. Charlie is fun but the idea of a relationship with her seems unlikely, she is way too much of an agent of chaos.
We haven’t known Charlie very long, but that seems a good read on the character and what she might do.
Considering that a decent portion of the audience ships Charlie/Zari having them flirt when the plan is to set up Zari with Nate is queerbaiting. In hindsight you can say it was a simple observation between straight women but right after the episode aired a lot of people were wondering if Charlie and Zari would get together. It doesn’t help that Charlie still flirts with Zari and the show has left the question of Zari’s sexuality up in the air. Though I agree, I don’t think the show (or network) has the balls to make its Muslim character LGBT. Threesomes and dating outside her religion seem to be ok though.
Having two characters maybe kinda sorta flirt but then have nothing come of it isn’t queerbaiting, especially on a show that already has four queer characters. I would have preferred Zari with Charlie than with Nate, but that doesn’t make this queerbaiting. This is a show that fully commits to its queer relationships after all.
Technically the threesome happened in magical love drug induced dream, but I’ll give you the dating outside of her religion.
I had to stop and ask my friend what scene all the queerbaiting comments came from because I honestly couldn’t remember and I was shocked it was based off that one throwaway line between Charlie and Zari. Certainly doesn’t read as “blatant and ongoing” to me – blatant and ongoing would be the teasing on the Arrow side of whether John Diggle’s going to become Green Lantern before the series ends.
Ongoing, yes. Blatant? I don’t really think so. A lot of people saw Zari/Charlie on a similar path as Avalance (enemies to lovers) because even in some of their early fights Charlie is flirting with Zari. That line in the mid-season finale seem to make subtext, text. Then out of nowhere Zari likes Nate.
Nate and Zari are so boring as a couple, I actually found large chunks of this episode painful to watch.And the more the other characters have to say that they have a thing for each other, the less I believe it.
I am fine with Nate & Zari but I did really like Ava saying that she didn’t see it and thought they had more of a friends thing & then her & Sara betting on it and the sense that the rest of the episode they were watching the pairing sort of like the viewers were & wanting to see how it would play out. It was the kind of effortless meta touch that this show does so brilliantly.
That awkward moment when other characters’ reaction to the relationship is more interesting than the relationship
I like the character pairing OK but romantically it’s iffy because they both had better chemistry with Amaya.as long as they don’t start being shitty to each other I don’t think I’ll mind it too much, though.
Looks like this is an unpopular opinion but I really hate this Nate/Zari thing. It’s like the writers can’t Nate be single for too long so they stuck him with the next available pretty girl. What do they like about each other? They didn’t even speak during the first half of this season. Have they had any significant interaction since the hedgehog episode? The writers have skipped over developing them just to have multiple characters tell us how much they like each other and forced them into a clichéd romantic plot. And now Zari seems to always be with Nate or talking about Nate while Nate gets side plots about his father and bromance with Ray. I’m crossing my fingers that this is just a hiccup and not a sign that Zari is slow devolving into The Girlfriend.
I’ve wondered if part of the problem is also just trying to build a romance in the hopes that there’s chemistry (which is what you do when you don’t want to have to actually build it on a history of trust, love, and support; see: every CW show ever).
But the problem with chemistry is that you either have it or you don’t. LoT has taken the unfortunate route of doubling down in the hopes that chemistry will spontaneously burst between them the more they’re forced to spend time together making moon eyes at each other.Fun fact: if you have to keep having characters say that two people are in love, it’s because you probably know you can’t otherwise sell it. Can you imagine if we only knew Jim was in love with Pam because other people in the office kept walking up and telling him that was the case?
The EP pretty much admitted that they just put Nate and Zari together on a whim. It wasn’t until the scene in the Bollywood episode when Zari helps Nate with his tie that they decided that the actors had good chemistry and decided to go all in. Though now that I think about it, that scene doesn’t make much sense. Nate’s an adult who can tie his own tie and Zari had no reason to be in his bedroom while the other Legends were waiting downstairs. It’s just an example of them, as you said “hoping that chemistry will spontaneously burst between them the more they’re forced to spend time together making moon eyes at each other”.I think Nate and Zari have great friendship chemistry. Making them romantic feels awkward.
Fun fact: if you have to keep having characters say that two people are in love, it’s because you probably know you can’t otherwise sell it. Can you imagine if we only knew Jim was in love with Pam because other people in the office kept walking up and telling him that was the case?This is a big pet peeve of mine. Zari encouraged Sara to go out with Ava last year, so I can understand Sara pushing Zari now. But having the whole ship comment on it is way too much. Though people are buying into Nate/Zari now, so maybe this method of storytelling does work.
As others have said in the comments for previous episodes, Nate was the only one during Zari’s time-loop adventure that immediately believed her story and tried to help her.
That wasn’t really Nate though, just Gideon’s simulation of Nate. When Zari woke up she spoke with Sara, Ray and Mick about their interactions in the simulation, but we never saw her speak to Nate about it. After that they didn’t have any significant interactions until a year later when the writers wanted to fast track this relationship to create angst for the finale. Also the fact that Amaya never came up is weird. When Zari was downplaying her feelings and looking for reasons not to date Nate “he’s my friend’s ex” should have been the first.
Yes, this simulation of Nate was based on the real Nate. There really was no difference between the two of them. So when Simulation-Nate was the only one to instantly believe her and want to help her, that is the same as if it was real-Nate. So while real-Nate may not have any memories of what Zari went through in that time-loop, she does. That is why the will-they-or-won’t-they attraction started with *her*, not him.
I mostly hate the Nate/Zari pairing because it has entirely obliterated Zari’s sarcastic wit and personality. Secondarily, I’m not a fan because it didn’t really seem to develop organically in any way. Maybe it was going to happen naturally in the original Hank story line but when they scrapped that, they lost the backstory that made it work, but kept the relationship and figured they could work it later?
My opinion: I finally got a grasp at what I *think* the writers are doing.It’s not a love story between Nate & Zari: it’s a coming-of-age story for Zari. Nate is quite never part of the plot: we don’t see an evolution of what he thinks of this kind of development, we just know what Zari feels.It’s like Zari is slowly evolving from an angry teenager (her at the begin of her arc) to a woman ready for love. She’s not cooked yet: she has to be pushed to follow her instinct for the God of Love, she has to be pushed to go for Nate… And this may mean that yes, she’s a lesbian, but she doesn’t unterstand that because before coming out, she has to come-of-age.(Sorry, my english is a mess when I’m drunk)
You can’t accuse a show with four queer characters of queerbaiting.
I did enjoy this episode, especially since Mick and Charlie actually got something to do for once, though I do find it odd that Charlie got dressed up rather than shapeshifted. Mona’s still annoying.The Gary stuff was something that was going to happen, but they made it work. I will enjoy evil Gary the next few weeks.As for Arrow, I was initially annoyed at the plot since Dinah seemed to grill her teammates TOO hard, but the revelation bumped the episode up for me. My main annoyance is that they didn’t bring Roy back sooner in order to set it up a bit more. I am interested in what will happen once the tape surfaces though.
I was not a fan of that Arrow episode (though I like Dinah). Roy being Lazarus Pit-ed seemed clear since early in the season when he exhibited some weird symptoms and didn’t want to talk about the past, and explains why he exiled himself to “the island” before the future timeline started. If anything the reveal was just way too dragged out. I thought all of them were in the wrong for framing Emiko for the murders of the security guards (especially weird to hear Dig try to justify it) even though I understand why they wanted to protect Roy, and Emiko really sucks (but is an effective villain).
I’m really starting to get worried about the future of Roy and Thea. Also not sure the plan the entire time was to frame Emiko, but right, wrong, or indifferent that’s where it ended up.
We got Mick changes the glasses out of that.
A Gary heel turn is something I didn’t know I wanted.Agreed on Dinah.
Gary turning evil is a good story because it is both funny but kind of sad too, as Gary does have legit reasons to be upset at how the Legends have treated him.
I’m honestly wondering how long they’ve been setting it up. It was for sure foreshadowed earlier in this episode.
Gary turning evil reminds me of Jonathan turning evil on Buffy, which likewise was a legitimately tragic arc for what seemed to be a comedic character
i wonder if the actor asked for an evil gary plotline as he was tired of being a laughingstock character.
I don’t think Charlie can sustain a shapeshift that long anymore & since no one knows what Rebecca Silver looks like, why bother?
Wasn’t she Nixon for, like, 2 days?
I thought it was only several hours and she lost it for a bit. I know they made an issue of it being hard for her.
Arrow SPOILER:
the revelation ruined the episode for me, friend of not, Roy killed two innocent people and he belongs to prison.
More than likely, this is why Roy will eventually exile himself to Lian Yu. Wich, I guess counts? Like, prison would provide him clothing, food, and shelter, which Lian Yu wouldn’t.
Team Arrow not arresting Roy is contrary to whatever they say they represent, since it is simply against any sense justice. There is nothing gray here, the man killed 2 people in cold blood. Self – exile/punishment cannot be a substitute for justice.
BuT iT WaSn’T hIs FAulT
My main annoyance is that they didn’t bring Roy back sooner in order to set it up a bit more. I am interested in what will happen once the tape surfaces though. THIS! Gosh, I can’t believe they bring Roy back as a SERIES REGULAR for this season, yet dump him into the bland flash-forwards for 19 out of 22 EPISODES until bringing him back to the present. WHAT A WASTE!(I know he did some flips in the all-flash-forward episode earlier, but that’s still a waste of Roy)
Arrow Corner:I cannot express how much Dinah sucks. She’s having heartburn over covering up for Roy – who Felicity, Diggle and Oliver are all vouching for, when just two weeks ago she was perfectly happy to cover up murders that Black Siren was accomplice to with no question whatsoever – and she was willing to apologize to Black Siren for doubting that she was a good person – even though…she was robbing people and being an accomplice to said murders! Also, I *know* Rene, the person who’s given up Oliver, what is it…THREE times now? Isn’t making snide little comments about Roy not being part of the Team. These two characters are just the worst. As is Emiko, who is also nonsensical, but at least she’s a villain.
I couldn’t agree more on all courts. Even though they are faking it, Rene just looooooves throwing Oliver under the bus and then has the nerve to question their devotion to Roy when Roy had turned himself in for Oliver!!
Arrow’s biggest problem these days is that its emotional stakes stopped feeling character driven or earned a few years back. Team Arrow abandons each other or feels guilty about different stuff often almost arbitrarily and with little notice.
Then they’re back on board 100% when that subplot ends. Nothing feels lasting or irreversible, and the characters, for the most part, don’t have believable arcs. They just stop doing/get over things when the story calls for it.
I mean, everyone else goes into battle with leather uniforms or armor while Rene wears a sports jersey over a hoodie and a hockey mask. That alone tells you how terrible he is.
PARKOUR ROY CORNER:Roy was back and he did so much parkour. Felicity even talked about how great he is at parkour. And I guess he also murdered two security guards, which is way less cool.
It’s mentioned that some or all of Gary’s cheeriness may be a facade. I’m wondering how much of his presenting his lost nipple as a badge of honor is for show. A shiver went down my back when I realized Neron meant literally whole. Since Gary seemed proud of losing his nipple I thought he would reject it, but in hindsight it makes perfect sense.Arrow corner:I did pick up that the team was telling lies here and there, but the fact that it was all a cover up (with some real proof hanging over them to boot) caught me off guard. It was good to see Roy in the present and finally get a real update on the Lazarus Pit Hunters.
Here’s at least a couple of things to add on Legends. Ray trying to science a solution was so in character.Gary and Nate were so confused as to why Ray was trying to hurt them and then having that realization that Oh Neron was handled well.
– I’ve seen the theory that it’s a dragon egg, but I’m going with Golden Goose. Not sure why either of those would be in the ice.
– There’s awkward-cute, and then there’s awkward-awkward. Nate and Zari is beyond awkward-awkward.
– Was that an “Evil Dead” reference?
– Wow, Mick is getting some real character development.
– I appreciate that the show gender flipped the butt weaving trip wire scene. Still didn’t enjoy it.
– I like Legends book club.
– See, what Sara and Ava have is real chemistry.
– “That gave me a few ideas for date night.” Are Sara and Ava into BDSM?
– So Gary will be Neuron’s way into the Time Bureau.
– I was praying for the egg to hatch and interrupt that scene. No luck.
– Nora is joining the Time Bureau. I kind of think of the Time Bureau and the Legends as being two arms of the same party. The Time Bureau as the Lawful side, the Legends as the Chaotic side.
– Let’s see what Brandon can do with being evil.
“I’ve seen the theory that it’s a dragon egg, but I’m going with Golden Goose. Not sure why either of those would be in the ice.”I first I thought Golden Goose, but I highly doubt Gideon would mix those two up.
This was a thought that I had at the beginning of the episode (my posts are stream of consciousness recordings), and it turned out not to be that way.
Okay
well, if dinosaurs were sort of birds, maybe a dragon is basically a dinosaur is basically a bird…
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I expected Nora to join the Legends and not the Time Bureau, but it makes sense the way it played out. Glad that she is finally on the team! Ava is right, she brings a unique skill and knowledge set that I think has definite value. Plus Courtney Ford is so funny and cute. I hope she sticks around next season even though it seems likely the team is going to change again somewhat & the mission presumably get reset somewhat again.
Ava being the one to bring Nora in to the fold was such a great twist. Also I said this elsewhere, but I’m so here for Nora trying to save Ray.
Yeah I love the sense, as Sara suggested with a throwaway line last week, that while Sara & Ava might one day have kids, for now they are sort of co-parenting the Legends and the Time Bureau together & Nora is part of that family. I definitely want and expect Nora to save Ray … but at the same time I also could see Nate refusing to accept his BFF being gone and saying he is willing to die with him & that being what brings him back from the brink, like Xander did with Dark Willow.
Nora totally is part of the family.You’re right that it might not be Nora who ends up doing the saving, but I like the idea of them coming full circle.
I expected Ava to say she was recruiting Nora because she knew Nora would do everything to save Ray.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone does say that eventually.
Ava handing Nora the badge, punctuated by a quietly heroic version of the Legends theme, is instantly one of my favourite moments of this season.
Everyone in a dark Badass Normal superhero team is into BDSM. It basically comes with the territory.
There was definitely some low-key Evil Dead referencing in this one- Ray talking to himself in the mirror was a good lift.
My first thought after Gideon ID’d it as a dragon egg was that Hey World finally has its centerpiece attraction.
Groovy. (Just not for Ray)
Definitely an Evil Dead joke. (Possessed arm, evil mirror doppelganger… “not groovy… not groovy at all.”)
I was so happy we got powers this episode.
My favorite line, “Not groovy”.
I love Army of Darkness!
Zari was amazing in this episode and I think she is now my 3rd favorite behind captain lance and of course Ray.I’m down for full evil Ray to end this season! It will be hart breaking for the whole team as he is the best of the best as far as being a kind hearted person.Love all of the Raiders references.
Zari is fantastic. I loved that Sara picked out the white dress that she wore for the 1933 adventure/ date, and that Zari and Nate both knew that she did not look “ridiculous.” I also loved that Sara was unapologetic to Ava about being willing to risk a mission to fix up Zari and Nate. It has always been consistent that as captain she prioritizes the team over the missions, which is why Stein considered her the “heart” of the team.The showrunner said that they weren’t sure about putting Nate and Zari together until they shot the scene before Nate’s dad’s funeral when she straightened Nate’s tie, and they realized there was something there. Likewise the scene when Zari asked Nate where it hurt and started kissing him brought the heat in a way that I did not expect but seems undeniable.
Yeah, the where does it hurt was and her wearing that dress was the perfect romantic tribute to Raiders of the lost arc. I agree that it’s great that Sarah cares more about the team than the mission. When they 1st got rid of Captain Hunter I was worried…. but man is this show so much better since he left.Everyone is on top of their game.
I’m so here for Nora trying to save Ray from a demon.
Me too, this show is just great. Even at it’s “lowest” the episodes are B- and that rarely happens. I hope CW runs with this show for a few more years at least.
This episode certainly brought whole new meaning to #freethenipple.
See, given all the con drama, I was thinking of “Meet Rebecca”.
Chekhov’s nipple strikes!This week’s Supergirl had a childhood bully of James who tormented him on the day of his dad’s funeral…and his name was Raymond Palmer. Ray Ray would never! Can’t wait for Agent Nora Darhk save the day. Ray’s loved ones had it bad this week.
You know I’ve stopped watching Supergirl, but the other day I was flipping through channels and one of the Reeve Superman movies was on and it hit me that they’ve never had Brandon Routh properly on Supergirl.
Brandon Routh was on the Crisis on Earth-X crossover and Ray saw Supergirl in passing and said something like her reminding him of his cousin. He’d be BFFs with Kara if ever given the chance.
Oh I remember that bit from the crossover (it was the Invasion! one BTW). Hence why I said properly. Also when I say Brandon Routh I don’t necessarily mean Earth-1 Ray Palmer.
The title of the episode is cute – but I don’t think the egg itself was important enough to the episode to really justify it other than as, well, a cute, meta title.I did like like that Gary’s ringtone is the Prometheus theme. Foreshadowing perhaps?The Nate-Zari pairing is sooooo boooooring. They have about as much chemistry as James and Lena. I desperately wish the writers weren’t trying so hard to sell this one.I’m just not really feeling it with the show right now. We’re, what, three episodes from the end and there’s no narrative thrust. The presumptive Big Bad feels like an afterthought. Characters are worrying about their domestic lives and book clubs. All the woman are obsessed with romances (their own and everyone else’s). There’s an abundance of relationship drama. Mona is really important to the show for some reason. They abandoned an obvious source of tension and stakes for the finale by wrapping up the Constantine-Desmond plot last week. The Hank-theme park retcon is enormously stupid and nowhere near as charming as the writers want us to think it is. There are almost no emotional stakes to anything whatsoever. It’s barely even a superhero show anymore. I’m not even sure what the show wants to be right now.I’m feeling grumpy. The Bollywood episode was the first time I’ve ever watched the show and felt like I wasn’t part of the target audience. And that feeling hasn’t entirely gone away.
The big story arcs this season have been weirdly paced or something. Some big events like Constantine saving Dez and Ava making Nora part of the team, which should have been huge, barely registered, and the big bad threat has not come into focus as clearly as it did the last two seasons. I have really liked how the Sara-Ava story played out anyway, I think they really thought that through and got it right. There is still time for it all to come together, I guess.
It probably works best as a live action cartoon that’s also a comedy. The problem is, I like the show best when it’s deliberately being silly rather than outright stupid. Which the past two seasons have occasionally struggled with.On an unrelated note, apparently the AV Club is just dropping the 100 from coverage without a peep. That’s annoying. Anyone know any good 100 review forums/sites?
That would suck for the av club to drop the reviews of The 100. Those are some of my favorite forums on the site. Den of Geek will probably review The 100, though the forums won’t be very lively. Maybe iO9?
If there’s no 100 reviews that’s sure gonna kill a lot of my motivation to get caught up.
I wouldn’t read too much into them not mentioning The 100 on today’s What’s on Tonight article, they forget to mention stuff they are covering all the time
All I really care about though is iZombie on Thurs.
This is a good week
There are almost no emotional stakes to anything whatsoever. It’s barely even a superhero show anymore. I’m not even sure what the show wants to be right now.THIS. Seriously, they barely use their powers this season. I said this somewhere else, with the focus on catching magical creatures, most of the Legends are rendered useless, thus making the weekly adventures…….well boring to be honest.
At the end, when Neron calls Gary ‘Mr. Green’, was the the first time we actually hear his last name, implying that none of the Legends even knew it?
I think we’ve heard his last name, but since he’s just Gary it was very effective.
I cautiously optimistic about the Nate and Zari thing too, especially when they were awkwardly bantering when you know both can nerd out pretty well. I also think I like the prospect of a slow burn as opposed to a will they/won’t they thing, like almost fully invested in kissing, the dragon egg. If they are taking, and it seems lesser so, but vaguely influenced by what happens to people who touch dragon eggs on the Magicians, but they could basically delay the romance angle again with the quasi parenting angle. Uh oh with Gary. This might actually be where Nate and Zari come in too because they both vaguely treat him nicer or at least have asked his assistance with some real things and trusted him with stuff (like that he’s who Zari asked to help crack Hank’s phone) than other people. But like neither one of them is the cajoling or like hostage negotiator type. I am a little concerned that this is the second week in a row where Charlie, Mick and Mona are sort of relegated to the j.v. team and I am not really seeking how they are particularly relevant to the Ray/Neuro/Gary situation at all. I mean, Mona has an affinity for the creatures, Ray was the one to recruit and reach out to Charlie, and Mick seems to like the Time Bros well enough. But I think Charlie played her card last week and Mona isn’t really any help just yet.
Gotta disagree on LOTW: After all the heaviness of this Avengers/GOT weekend I really appreciated Nate demanding, “What kind of a punkass hug was that?”
Were people not completely sold on Nate and Zari the first time they started spending time on-screen together? Seemed like a good fit all along to me, the actors seem to have great chemistry and every time they’ve teamed up, it has been fun to watch.Also I loved the Gary twist. The characters are indeed quite mean to him, he’s basically the Jerry Gergich of this show. He’s obviously not perfect and has his own negative qualities, but at the end of the day he’s been a pretty reliable ally for the Legends and they still treat him like crap. I mean hell, he’s way more useful than Mona is. It made perfect sense why he joined Neron and was a nice twist to accelerate that conflict to the finish line.
Zari and Nate both have chemistry literally with everybody, so it seemed likely to me that putting them together would work if that is what they opted to do. Theoretically Nate still getting over being dumped by Amaya, who was Zari’s friend, would seem like a problem for them getting together, but that hasn’t even come up and it feels like that happened a hundred years ago since this season has been so crazy, so in that sense it has been smoother than I expected.
Gary is definitely the show’s Butt Monkey.
is this what happens to Jerry Gergich without the impossibly perfect home life?
I do find the execution different enough from the traditional CW romance formula that I’m intrigued where it’ll go – I don’t buy that either of them are crazy for each other so much as they’re good friends and the people around them have said “hey you guys are good together, you should hook up” and they kind of talk themselves into agreeing. Somehow it seems more realistic that way.It could also be a build up to some sort of plot lever to pull for the season finale (ie. Neron wants their love in exchange for putting everything back the way it was and leaving).
I like it for this reason as well. The will they or won’t they in the Arrowverse (and TV in general) is so geared towards big feeling and epic love and wanting to be together forever and stuff, so I find it refreshing that it’s basically justtwo attractive people on a timeship who generally get along figuring they might as well give it a go.(It’s always been my opinion that Arrow ruined Oliver and Felicity by having them pine and obsess and angst over each other rather than them just hooking up spontaneously and then maybe have things get more serious from there.)
Ray gave himself to Neron because he has faith in his friends, Gary because he has no faith. If we know one thing about our Ray-Ray it’s that he truly believes that the Legends, together, will get the best of anyone or any thing in their way because they fight for what’s right. When he gave himself he knew that this Time Bro would not only survive, but everyone would fight to the end to get him out of this. And even if HE didn’t make it out alive the whole world would.
Gary, though… Gary he doesn’t have faith in anything. Not the the Legends. Not the Time Bureau. Not even himself. He saw it as his only way to power and acceptance.
At first I, like many others in this thread, felt a little bad for Gary and how the writers treated the character here. It almost seems like he turned on a dime, and the flashbacks to the times the Legends treated him poorly hit home. Then I thought about the character a little more.Gary has always been a little weak willed where all of the Legends have will to spare. Nate, or any of the Legends, would have put up a fight against Neron. Gary goes to whomever treats him the best. He’s a natural lackey.And to that point, Constantine seemed willing to take him on as an apprentice, or at least trust him. That’s something Constantine really doesn’t do. I think we can all agree that John is a jerk and doesn’t trust anyone. Yet he let Gary have free reign over his books. He fully expected Gary to be able to help in the moment. He had faith in him. Gary went the easy route.
I still feel a little bad for Gary, but not that bad.
Gary goes to whomever treats him the best. He’s a natural lackey.
With Gary’s heel turn here I was already thinking about his cameo in the most recent crossover and how long they might’ve been setting this up. This really drives that point home.
Fantastic callback in this episode: As Zari and Nate thought in the timeloop episode, Mick doing laundry was suspicious. Because he wasn’t actually doing laundry, the laundry basket was full of fan mail that he was secretly reading AND ANSWERING! Everything with Mick in this episode was wonderful. Him embracing the interactions with the fans with respect and without apology or embarrassment was perfect, and so this show
I’m sorry, but I don’t remember a time loop episode…
“Here I Go Again,” from last season
https://www.avclub.com/legends-of-tomorrow-channels-hedgehog-day-for-an-exce-1823148372
Mona worked so much better as a side-character. She’s so annoying on the team, and her “Wolfie” form is such horrible CGI and rubber prosthetic, which is sad because Grodd and King Shark look so good.
For some reason I assumed the Ray possession story was going to be a one-and-done, not a multi-episode arc.
Also: the Time Bureau’s bathrooms are FANCY.
Finally some time travel and powers.Mick better make it to s 5
if there is a body count with rey’s possession, i imagine there will be an emotional breakdown once he is dispossessed. much like when picard breaks down about his deeds under the borg’s possession:
I’m going to love seeing evil superman…erm Ray next week.
Everything in this episode was great, but one of my favourite bits was seeing the book club book was called THE GIRL WHO WAS MURDERED TO DEATH…and then hearing some fantastically bad excerpts from it! I love that LEGENDS excels at these silly little jokes that actually matter.And Evil Gary! I get why he’s switched sides- the Legends are actually mean to him, even though we know they are genuinely fond of him – he’s like an annoying little brother. Will he realise this? I honestly have no idea.
They should totally read A Case of a Knife to the Brain by Jessica Huang next. They (well, the ones who actually read the books) would adore it!
I believe the book title was actually “The Girl Who Got Murdered Too Much”. I tittered (if that’s a word I can still use in the context of this episode).
I assume that means the LoT writers love your cosplay, y’all. (I have seen many Constantines but sadly few of the other Legends at cons.)The Legends don’t even wear their costumes, so it’s not surprising that their fans don’t.Now it makes sense as to how Nora West-Allen knew Mick was Rebecca Silver – that’s an open secret in the future.I would much rather have Nora join the Legends and send Mona back to the TB, but a Ava/Nora team-up should be fun, especially since they’ll be working to get their boys back. I really hope Ava hashes out her issues with Gary. I like their weird friendship.
Oy, I guess we all gotta face how we’ve treated Gary. I’m gonna need a couple silks.Hopefully I can come up with something that will save the two of them. Knowing me, I’m already two steps ahead of that bloody demon.
This was an interesting one. A lot of this episode felt fluffy and indulgent, what with Nate/Zari on an adventure/date, Sara prepping for book club, and Mick and Charlie prepping to debut Rebecca Silver. I think we’re supposed to think of this as the calm before the storm where our crew gets a chance to relax, and Sara alludes to as much, but the audience knows that Ray is fighting for control of his body so that undercuts some of the fun of the characters’ downtime.Ray – maybe just me but I was a little unclear what the ‘rules’ were surrounding Neron’s possession of him. We see Neron prevents Ray from telling others he’s under Neron’s control, then in a later scene Ray seems to have found a workaround by calling Constantine/Gary. Ray locking himself in a lab trying to figure out a cure by himself seems only to exist to allow the other plot threads to play out. Cry for help, do scream like crazy, rally the crew and eventually they would’ve figured it out.All that said, the ending with Gary’s corruption and Nora’s redemption were fantastic. I really hope Gary isn’t framed as some secretly toxic figure underneath the cheeriness; Anything creepy Gary has done has seemingly been in service of a gag or a plot point, and tackling this kind of issue beyond a “We should treat Gary better” resolution may just be a little too heavy for Legends to handle. We’ll see.
No mention of the title of the book that the book club was reading?The Girl Who Got Murdered Too Much had me cracking up as soon as I saw the book’s cover.
I loved the title! Of course Sara would get into it once she actually read it — it’s secretly a biography of her.
The “I can make you whole again” line would seem like a deliberate nod to the Atomic Kitten song, except… do Americans know it at all?
What did I just watch? Though I like how in the thumbnail it looks like one is missing a limb.
I hadn’t realized how good actor Brandon Routh can be, his deamon-self is so scary..
Pleased Nora is officially a part of the team.
Not Pleased Mona is still a part of the show. I find her annoying.
Not sure why objectifying dudes is better than objectifying chicks, other than prejudice, of course.This show is leagues better than anything else superhero on TV, from the dreadful first season to a superb present, what a delight it is, the only thing even challenging on the horizon is Doom Patrol.Legends is truly king.
I applaud the use of CXG
I really enjoyed this episode but can’t really remember when Mick actually knowingly published his books. I’m okay with not having that directly answered until the end of the season. What made zero sense was Gary’s flashbacks of all the times he was disregarded by the Legends, amongst these was a scene from “Here I Go Again” which was only experienced by Zari and Gideon!!!
Legends is fucking fantastic