Actor Mark Ruffalo backtracked on his initial comments about the ongoing Israel-Palestine conflict, saying he “reflected & wanted to apologize for posts during the recent Israel/Hamas fighting that suggested Israel is committing ‘genocide,’” calling it “hyperbole.”
After weeks of standing firm that being pro-Palestine is not equated with antisemitism, Ruffalo wavered back to a more moderate position. In his tweet he also said his use of the word “genocide” is “not accurate,” and “is being used to justify antisemitism here & abroad.”
This follows an announced ceasefire this week between Israelis and Palestinian military group Hamas, where Israelis killed over 200 civilians, including 61 children. More than 40,000 Palestinians in the region have moved to shelters or sought refuge elsewhere. Due the recent weeks of fighting, the Palestinians in Gaza are now without clean drinking water, sewage systems, and an Israeli airstrike destroyed the only coronavirus testing center. On May 10, Israeli police raided the Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, one of Islam’s holiest sites to “stop protestors from throwing stones.” On the other side, the recent conflict left 10 Israelis dead.
It’s okay, Mark. We can imagine it’s hard to stand firm against imperialism while performing in a film franchise that propagandizes it, in a country whose government pledges billions in military aid to Israel, while talking out the other side of its mouth about a two-state solution. The Hulk actor’s statement in defense of Chris Pratt after he was deemed the “Worst Chris” in the industry was a more firmly supportive position than where Ruffalo stands now on this major political issue. And Disney, which makes those Marvel movies, is not known for its laissez faire attitude toward the social media presence of actors involved in any associated projects. It’s impossible to say if they have anything to do with the Ruffalo’s new tune, but some fans are definitely giving the company the side eye.
410 Comments
A cowardly move that makes one wonder why he made the statement in the first place.
Because he made the statement as himself, then issued the apology after Disney threatened to cut him off from all that sweet, sweet MCU money.
The same Disney he’s been on contract with for like a decade? He had every reason to expect them to hate his statement. That’s why it was so bold and meaningful for him to make it.
He likely figured Disney wouldn’t care as much for the Isreal vs. Palestine conflict since they don’t have massive amounts of money invested in that area like they do China.
how much money could Ruffalo need at this point in his career? doesn’t he have enough already that he could coast by doing smaller roles for lesser pay?
Ah, the sweet song of people telling other people they should stop getting paid.
NOPE. NOT WHAT I SAID.
I mean, he probably got paid big bucks for Ragnarok onwards, but he didn’t get paid “fuck you” money like RDJ did.
I don’t know what his bills are like.
for sure. I’m sure he meant it/means it but Disney isn’t going to have any of that. Anyway as always fuck Disney.
Disney didn’t threaten. They just sent an unmarked envelope with a headshot of Terrence Howard to Ruffalo.
I have it on good authority that Ruffalo is high pretty much all of the time, so think of this as your fun stoner friend who says weird shit sometimes but you shrug it off.
I wanna get stoned with Hulk.
yeh, he’s one of those people who argues his political point by saying “we’re not a third world country, we deserve better!”
not a fan.
Nah.This feels like he still believes in the original sentiment, that Israel is doing something wrong, but is being more responsible and less hyperbolic in how he characterizes it.It’s like if you get mad at your neighbor for cutting down a few trees and call him a murderer. If someone takes you aside and goes “bro, his parents were murdered, not cool”, a decent person would walk back his language.
Oh oh I get it, we have to talk about Palestinians like they aren’t people. Ok, let’s say they’re trees, fine. Between May 10th and May 21st, the Israeli air fo- uh, lumber brigade chopped down 248 trees, and 66 of those were saplings. In addition to that, they took a few chops at about 1,948 others which may or may not survive. They also burned down nine high-rise bui- uh, forests.I don’t know about you, but I think that’s a pretty bad neighbor.
What are you talking about? He didn’t say they were trees or implied it. He was giving you an example of using hyperbole when he shouldn’t have and walked what he said back.
You know exactly what I’m talking about. My point was that it wasn’t hyperbole. Obviously.
But it is. It’s fucked up and they are killing a bunch of Palestinians. But it’s not genocide. If they wanted genocide then they very well have the capability to do it. It’s not to that scale. Yet.
It is genocide. By definition.“The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260. The Convention entered into force on 12 January 1951. It defines genocide in legal terms”Definition of genocide:Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as… any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2Article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:(a) Genocide;(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;(d) Attempt to commit genocide;(e) Complicity in genocide.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 3
You act as if the events of the past couple weeks are isolated rather than the latest stage of a decades-spanning plan to wipe out Palestine.
Oh, it’s a horrible, criminal neighbor.But also, words have meanings.Netanyahu’s a fascist motherfucker who runs an apartheid and intentionally got his own people killed in order to fracture the opposing coalition and stay out of jail.Also, Israel isn’t committing genocide.
Mark Ruffalo’s brother Scott was shot dead.
Except that people’s parents are actually being murdered by Israel.
Man, you are horrible at analogies. But you are awful at everything. So that’s a given.
its not a cowardly move. He believed int he essence of what he said-but realized “genocide” is an exxageration, so he walked it back a bit.
I don’t think it’s cowardly to admit that you’re learning things and can adjust your rhetoric accordingly. It’s more than most famous people can do. TBH I don’t even think I really know exactly what qualifies as a genocide. There’s a lot of definitions from various people, some of which Israel/Palestine fits and some that it doesn’t fit. I think it’s fair to admit that while what’s happening in Israel is very bad and Palestineans deserve better, it’s not genocide on the same scale or with the same cold-blooded intention to completely obliterate another ethnic group as the Holocaust or 1990s Rwanda.
He is a cowardly leftist choad who forgot he is Disneys biatch.
The mishmash of anti-boycott/anti-dissent/anti-protest/anti-BDS laws the Israeli lobby got passed in various localities around the world have made it very difficult for people working in lots of industries to speak up. The line between brave and reckless can be very fine. If Ruffalo wants to continue to use his elevated platform to make smaller films that can shine a light on issues which don’t get enough attention, then those sorts of projects are going to be the easiest to punish with those laws. If he wants to continue to have an elevated platform to use in the first place, he’ll have to “play nice” which sucks. The intention of those laws was to hobble even the mildest criticism and they work, even if they’ll be struck down eventually. The laws don’t have to be there forever, just long enough for Zionists to carve off some more land and slaughter some more people.
“Israel and its supporters are engaging in lawfare by lobbying for anti-BDS laws that infringe upon the right to free speech.”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws
Anti-BDS laws – Wikipedia
John Cena also did a video where he apologized, in Mandarin, to China and Chinese citizens for daring to call Taiwan a country.
There’s probably worse things you can call them.
That really upsets me.
But it probably makes millions of Chinese wrestling fans happy that they won’t lose access to the WWE because John Cena is a coward with no scruples.
The only entity more powerful than Disney is the PRC.
I can only imagine Disney is furiously scrubbing every trace of Chloe Zhao’s name from the Eternals credits right about now.
Banner day for spineless cowards.
Better keep quiet if your opinion does not agree with the SJW woke crowd or you could find yourself out of a job. Thank god I am rich and retire and don’t give a fuck. #DefundIsreal
Irony is the Chinese army of trolls hasn’t accepted his insincere apology.
Oh, man. It’s almost like celebrities have opinions nobody should give a shit about and that when it comes down to it, they and the corporations that employ them like to sell things. Could that be true? Disney is making movies and shows staring minorities! WB made the first female superhero blockbuster! Clearly these companies have real values and it can’t all just be shifting towards whatever makes the most fucking money, right? Gosh. Well, at least they don’t make movies with advisors on how specifically to appease the Chinese censors. That’d be ridiculous!
I cannot, for the life of me, figure out what about shotmyheart’s comment inspired such vitriolic sarcasm from you.
It was also inspired by the article and the increasing “what celebrities say is important!’ mindset. Went a bit overboard on this specific reply. Sorry for that!
It’s good to know that the Scientologists haven’t completely taken over Hollywood yet and the old Jewish guard can still swing their dicks around to bring an errant actor into line.And because this needs to said, this is a joke, people.
Actor Walks Back After Being Struck In Face By Swinging Circumcised Penis. More At 11.
“being pro-Palestine is not equated with antisemitism”This is a true statement.“his use of the word “genocide” is “not accurate,” and “is being used to justify antisemitism here & abroad.””This is also true. This shit’s not black and white, folks.
That’s what frustrates me. Both sides of the debate want to turn the conflict into good guys vs. bad guys and act like their side is flawless.
That’s basically the Internet over the last, what, 8-10 years? No wiggle room in any argument and you’re either 100% with me or you GTFO.
Exactly. No nuance allowed.
The issues aren’t black and white which is why the most insightful commenters on here toil selflessly away here in the greys.
This is why I’ve stayed completely out of this debate, only commenting on it to agree both sides are not the good guy.
Yeah. I had a whole justification written up about how each side was wrong in specific ways and then thought better of it. I’ll leave it to people who are more educated on the issue than I am.
you ever listened to people argue about venezuela? it hurts my head.who knew? international politics are non-binary.
See also: Cuba. The successes and failures of any communist or socialist country get massively distorted in different directions by right-wingers and leftists.
So you wouldn’t even denounce American interventionism in foreign countries? Like is recruiting and training radicalized exiles to invade a country and then enacting devastating sanctions against it when that fails too “morally grey” to condemn?
What? Where are these straw men you’re attacking even coming from? What about me saying that Cuba isn’t perfect makes you think that I’m saying that the US is? This is exactly what I’m talking about. I can condemn the US for invasions and sanctions and condemn Cuba for their numerous human rights violations. Saying that life is more complicated than simplistic good guy vs. bad guy narratives doesn’t mean that everything is morally grey and no one should speak out against individual actions. All I’m saying is that people shouldn’t ignore atrocities because it’s their team committing them, whether that’s jingoistic right-wingers pretending that communism is evil by default and the US is never wrong or Twitter leftists pretending that Fidel Castro was basically Gandhi.
“I can condemn the US for invasions and sanctions and condemn Cuba for their numerous human rights violations.”Except these aren’t two sides of the same coin, one is infinitely worse and white-washed in spite of it. Its like comparing the actions of a pickpocket to a mass murderer or mob boss, it doesn’t make sense and it doesn’t affect any positive change within the political mainstream that still advocates for a “Free Cuba”
Infinitely? Jailing, beating, and killing political dissidents and turning a blind eye to the abuse of LGBTQ Cubans is “infinitely” less bad than a failed invasion and an embargo? Downplaying the oppressive dictator of a nation of 11 million to that point that you call him a pickpocket is laughably biased.
His treatment of political dissidents was nothing compared to his predecessors, and his treatment of the LGBTQ Cuban community improved significantly over time. You’re willfully accepting the State Dept’s narrative when you call him a dictator, from the beginning of his revolution, when he kicked out the mob and the Batista loyalists and nationalized Cuba’s natural resources and plantations he became a target of the US empire. This country spent ungodly amounts of money funding propaganda that vilified him, numerous assassination attempts, terror attacks against the Cuban people by radical exiles, an invasion and an embargo that became far worse after the USSR’s collapse. All of this and Castro never had a significant opposition within his own country and to believe it’s because of his suppression is to believe the State Dept’s talking heads
That’s bullshit. There has been a lot of credible reporting and investigations from private organizations that confirm Castro’s decades of human rights violations. Blaming the US for every bad thing that ever happened in that country is exactly the kind of childish G.I. Joe red laser/blue laser nonsense that the right engages in. It’s not better just because it’s coming from the left. The Batista whataboutism is quite frankly, disgusting. The left has no problem calling Obama a war criminal despite him being better than his predecessor in every way. But somehow Castro gets a free pass on 50 years of oppression because Batista was also a sack of shit? Save the ahistorical tankie rhetoric for somebody stupid enough to buy into it.
“There has been a lot of credible reporting and investigations from private organizations that confirm Castro’s decades of human rights violations.”Like what? Point out any media organizations not tied to the state that credibly point to wide-scale oppression that can be wholly blamed on the Castro regime. “Blaming the US for every bad thing that ever happened in that country is exactly the kind of childish G.I. Joe red laser/blue laser nonsense that the right engages in”The US influence on the island nation 80 miles off its coast IS verifiably immense, that kind of pressure affects everything. Just try to imagine living in a country that’s opposed by the world’s only Superpower whose sole aim is to dismantle your government, who also controls the world’s reserve currency. Like any actual affect you can have on your own country at that point is based solely on your resistance to its influence“The left has no problem calling Obama a war criminal despite him being better than his predecessor in every way. But somehow Castro gets a free pass on 50 years of oppression because Batista was also a sack of shit?”The difference between the US and the Cuban regimes is a difference of material conditions. When Castro came to power a majority of his people were impoverished and exploited by US capital that funneled out their own resources, they were politically disenfranchised by years of US intervention, even within their own constitution and they were brutally suppressed by US backed dictatorships and Spanish backed dictatorships before them. So its not “ahistorical tankie rhetoric” to justify Castro’s revolution, its based upon actual analysis. And again, saying Obama is less evil than Bush doesn’t actually contribute anything to the conversation, that nuance that you refuse to give to other countries means little to actual discussions on policy and foreign intervention
Like what? Point out any media organizations not tied to the state that credibly point to wide-scale oppression that can be wholly blamed on the Castro regime.https://www.civicus.org/index.php/media-resources/news/5030-int-l-action-needed-to-hold-cuban-government-accountable-for-human-right-violationshttps://www.helpsetthemfree.org/the-cuban-patriotic-union/https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/americas/cuba/report-cuba/https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/cuba
Those all mostly have indirect or direct support of the state and corporate media and none of their complaints can be wholly blamed on Castro’s regime, see how I set you up there? These people have an interest in maintaining the neo-liberal order and dissidents within Cuba have ample power to have their voices magnified through the internet and the media
So anyone who criticizes the Castro regime is a pawn of the deep state? Sounds familiar. And yes, I did see how you set me up before I even made my comment, but I was hoping you would make a good faith response regardless. Oh well.
“And yes, I did see how you set me up before I even made my comment, but I was hoping you would make a good faith response regardless”How can I argue in good faith with someone who denies me the same. The same guy who denies the extent of US interventionism and neocolonialism“So anyone who criticizes the Castro regime is a pawn of the deep state? Sounds familiar.”Yeah that fictitious “Deep State”! Its not like our foreign policy remains functionally the same despite whatever Party is in charge! Its not like there’s Neoliberal agenda perpetuated by the Government and corporate media to fuel their own interests. Those QAnon kooks think kids are being sold in cabinets, so obviously the concept of a Deep State, which has been academically studied and analyzed since the sixties is bunk!!
The same guy who denies the extent of US interventionism and neocolonialismI’ve done nothing of the sort. I just don’t think American imperialism is an excuse that gives a foreign political leader carte blanche to trample the freedoms of their citizens. Apparently you do. There can be no “credible reporting” because anyone who says anything remotely negative about a leftist leader is automatically a puppet of the deep state no matter how tenuous their ties to anything remotely resembling a governmental organization may be. I’ll agree that it’s not as ridiculous as QAnon, but it comes from the same mindset.
“I’ve done nothing of the sort. I just don’t think American imperialism is an excuse that gives a foreign political leader carte blanche to trample the freedoms of their citizens.”But you do, because you ignore any and all context. Condemning human rights abuses, to whatever extent they actually exist by Castro’s regime does NOTHING for the Cuban people, when the biggest possible positive impact would be from speaking out and helping to overturn Sanctions, while normalizing relations between the two countries. Once again, these “nuanced” views are useless. Forget about the income redistribution, the literacy programs, the medical care that continues to improve and do great things without the “profit motivation” and basic equipment being denied by the embargo and boil it all down to “Castro is bad”, then what does that mean? Overthrow the government and what’s left in its place? A regime more subservient to the US and its economic interests, well done, sir, now you can address the “US imperialism” is bad argument without being hung up on the Castro thing! I’m sure you’ll be extra motivated to speak out against it then…
Condemning human rights abuses, to whatever extent they actually exist by Castro’s regime does NOTHING for the Cuban peopleTell that to the people who are being thrown in jail for speaking out against the regime. Those people are Cuban people too. They count despite your insistence that they don’t even exist. biggest possible positive impact would be from speaking out and helping to overturn Sanctions, while normalizing relations between the two countries.Which is something that I literally just said that I support. Overthrow the government and what’s left in its place? A regime more subservient to the US and its economic interestsAnother straw man. When did I suggest that anyone should overthrow any government? You keep doing this over and over again. “You said mean things about my communist hero, so you’re a bad imperialist who supports embargos and US-backed coups.” As I’ve said repeatedly, failing to acknowledge reality because it doesn’t fit your agenda, whatever that agenda may be, is just straight up wrong. It’s poisonous. All human lives have value and all human beings deserve to be treated with dignity, not just the ones who support your cause. It is possible to acknowledge Castro’s abysmal human rights record while also acknowledging the good things he’s done in Cuba. It’s possible to push for an end to sanctions without whitewashing that regime and turning deifying the leadership. In fact, I’d argue that you’d have a lot more success in reaching people who aren’t already on your side if you didn’t come off like a mindless zealot who thinks global politics is a team sport.
“Tell that to the people who are being thrown in jail for speaking out against the regime. Those people are Cuban people too. They count despite your insistence that they don’t even exist.” I’ll tell it to them if I can FIND them, they seem to be hiding very well…“Which is something that I literally just said that I support.”But then you pause, take a breath and then say, “But that Castro fella’s a bad hombre,” and we’re left with nothing to show for it““You said mean things about my communist hero, so you’re a bad imperialist who supports embargos and US-backed coups.”” Not to go too deep, but it illustrates my point- Castro wasn’t even a communist until the US drove him into the arms of the only other superpower that could possibly protect him. He obviously had Marxist leanings but as soon as he attempted the dreaded “Land reform” the full might of the US Empire was unleashed upon him.And that leads to the main philosophical idea underpinning my argument, the main aggressor should be the focus, the main mover and shaker, the Creator, Elohim himself of the conflict should be the focus. As soon as you point out how many people Hamas kills, or any other standard Zionist talking point, then you lose the momentum to affect real change. B/c its the Zionist/American Hegemony side of the conflict that benefits from the conflict as is, its the oppressors who want to preserve the system therefore they should be the main focus of criticism. Pretending Hamas are all religious fundamentalists who dream of holding onto a pile of rubble while alive and martyr’s paradise when they die does nothing for the actual conversation.
I’ll tell it to them if I can FIND them, they seem to be hiding very well…They have a website! You can follow them on Twitter! This is honestly your most ridiculous take. “My guy is so popular that there’s literally no opposition.” That’s insane. Every leader ever has had opposition. If you can’t find any, that means they’re dead or in prison. But then you pause, take a breath and then say, “But that Castro fella’s a bad hombre,” and we’re left with nothing to show for itI also think that Ayatollah Khamenei is horrible, but I was in favor of the Iran nuclear deal. I think Kim Jong Un is horrible, but I don’t think we should invade North Korea. You just keep proving my initial point over and over again, that certain people seem to have broken brains and can’t grok that it’s possible to hold a position that’s not on one of two extreme ends of the spectrum. Start a petition to normalize US relations with Cuba and I’ll sign it. Show me a politician who takes that position and, assuming everything else checks out, I’ll vote for them. If we have no movement on that issue, it’s certainly not because I refuse to live in denial and pretend that Cuba is Happy Fairlyland. And that leads to the main philosophical idea underpinning my argument, the main aggressor should be the focusI agree. As soon as you point out how many people Hamas kills, or any other standard Zionist talking point, then you lose the momentum to affect real change.This is the sticking point and we’re apparently going to have to agree to disagree. I don’t think it’s possible to effect change while being honest and realistic about the reality of the situation. You’re not wrong that things are heavily weighted in Israel’s favor, but that doesn’t mean that anyone who wants to see their hegemony ended has to pretend that Hamas is blameless. In fact, I’d say the opposite, that you’re a lot more credible and convincing if you’re being real about the situation than you are if you’re pretending that Hamas isn’t intentionally killing civilians or acting like that’s acceptable. But I’ve made this point multiple times now and it’s getting repetitive, so there’s no point in making it again after this message. Clearly, you’re convinced that you have to craft a false narrative in order to make your point.
“They have a website! You can follow them on Twitter! This is honestly your most ridiculous take. “My guy is so popular that there’s literally no opposition.” That’s insane. Every leader ever has had opposition. If you can’t find any, that means they’re dead or in prison.”I didn’t mean they didn’t exist, only that they were a minority within the country, and one could reasonably assume that minority would shrink if the embargo was lifted“I also think that Ayatollah Khamenei is horrible, but I was in favor of the Iran nuclear deal. I think Kim Jong Un is horrible, but I don’t think we should invade North Korea. You just keep proving my initial point over and over again, that certain people seem to have broken brains and can’t grok that it’s possible to hold a position that’s not on one of two extreme ends of the spectrum.” -Interesting examples of people directly affected by American foreign policy. One can only imagine who they would have been had the US not intervened in both countries, or what position they would have been in. Does Khomeini have the same influence within his country if Mosaddegh wasn’t overthrown, for example. Do his secular social-democratic policies turn more people away from fundamentalist Islam( though Iran’s Shia brand is far better than Saudi Wahhabism)? We’ll never know because of this all-consuming Empire that refuses to accept any countries sovereignty besides Israel“In fact, I’d say the opposite, that you’re a lot more credible and convincing if you’re being real about the situation than you are if you’re pretending that Hamas isn’t intentionally killing civilians or acting like that’s acceptable…..Clearly, you’re convinced that you have to craft a false narrative in order to make your point.”You lose credibility when you adopt Zionist talking points, like pretending Hamas attacks are unprovoked or that when it does its intentionally attacking “civilians” in a ethnostate with mandatory military service. THAT is the false narrative, and it slows the debate just as much as the rhetoric policing
one could reasonably assume that minority would shrink if the embargo was liftedAlternately, one could assume that their ranks would grow and could actually become a minority if the government wasn’t routinely throwing people in jail for their political beliefs. like pretending Hamas attacks are unprovokedProvoked or not, murder is murder. its intentionally attacking “civilians” in a ethnostate with mandatory military serviceWow. This is really disingenuous. A country having mandatory military service doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have civilians or that the whole country, including children, are fair game and should be considered combatants. That’s a pretty disgusting line of reasoning and your “ethnostate” dog whistle doesn’t help. It’s not a Zionist talking point to say that Hamas is intentionally targeting civilian targets with their rocket attacks. It’s reality.
“Alternately, one could assume that their ranks would grow and could actually become a minority if the government wasn’t routinely throwing people in jail for their political beliefs.”Far less likely, the Castro government is still broadly popular, the whole point of the embargo was to create that opposition after it failed to appear during the Bay of Pigs, and its failed to materialize through 60 years of deliberate economic starvation“Provoked or not, murder is murder.”Says the dude I assume is living in relative comfort, and not being routinely stepped on, assaulted and thrown out of your own home, starved, denied control of your own sewage, water or electricity. “A country having mandatory military service doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have civilians or that the whole country, including children, are fair game and should be considered combatants”Its the same rationale that allows Israel to kill Gazans indiscriminately, despite their use of “human shields”. Except its more justified in this case because its the civilians of an actual Apartheid state rather than the “stateless” men women and children occupying an open air prison.“That’s a pretty disgusting line of reasoning and your “ethnostate” dog whistle doesn’t help.”DOG WHISTLE?? Describing the Apartheid state with a permanently disenfranchised underclass that are routinely purged from their lands, that conduct population transfers of anyone of vaguely Jewish descent to offset Arab birthrates, that prohibits non Jews from marrying Jews, and that even forces birth control regimens on immigrating Ethiopian women as an ethnostate is NOT a fucking dog whistle. Anti-Zionism is NOT Anti-Semitism, there’s a reason the American Evangelical community is more consistently supportive of Israel than the American Jewish community
the rest of us don’t care about cuba the same creepy way that the US does, though.
which sucks on its own level, but…
This is the weirdest kind of centrist argument, like what does approaching this situation from the middle actually accomplish? And how does one go about conceptualizing a “middle” in this whole thing? Where is the middle in a war between a military state with billions of $ in defense spending and more from US support and a small militant organization with not even a fraction of the same resources in a territory that’s actively blockaded by the other side?
When did I say that the exact middle was the correct position? You can hold both sides accountable for their civilian casualties and other crimes in proportion to their scale.
But can you say that one side has a bigger impact on the other, that one side is ultimately the driver of the conflict? Or do you think Hamas would still send the rockets if Israel were to suddenly stop their settler expansion and ethnic cleansing?
Hamas’s power base is in a place from which Israel voluntarily withdrew, haha.The question isn’t “Would Hamas still be shitheads if Israel dumped Likud.”They absolutely would continue to be evil shitheads, just like the Provisional IRA are.It’s whether the Palestinian populace would continue to support their shitheadery, if Israel stopped Likud’s.
“Hamas’s power base is in a place from which Israel voluntarily withdrew, haha.”-Do you mean that open-air prison where Israel has total control of the water supply, electricity and sanitation, which they’ve blockaded to the point where their measuring calories they’ll allow the Gazans to consume, where they routinely destroy critical infrastructure in the most densely packed spot on Earth?? Its almost like you’re being intentionally ambiguous…“They absolutely would continue to be evil shitheads, just like the Provisional IRA are.It’s whether the Palestinian populace would continue to support their shitheadery, if Israel stopped Likud’s.”-This assumes all the blame for Israeli policies to be laid on the Likud but Israel as a whole radicalized and shifted to Right for well over twenty years. There’s little functional difference in the other political parties as of now, they all advocate the same treatment of Gaza, they all promote more Zionist settlements, occupation of illegally held territory, population transfers and ethnic cleansing. Bibi is more naked in his contempt for Arabs but there’s little overall that would change if another party stepped inBesides being funded and promoted by the Israelis in the first place, Hamas is still a popular entity to the Palestinians as opposed to PTO because they’re fighting back, they are actively resisting the occupation and the forces ethnic cleansing. It has to be obvious to you by now that a people so immiserated and repressed still choosing to resist a military force with endless resources and destructive capability is on a basic level asserting their own humanity, so its not so simple as to say “terrorists bad!” and shut your brain off
We honestly aren’t that far apart…but let’s be clear:The rightward Israeli shift can be directly tied to the half-decade of suicide bombings at the turn of the 21st century making it political poison to adopt anything but a “Tough on Hamas” stance.Hamas and Likud are both evil fucks with the blood of children on their hands.Likud will say “Sure there’s collateral damage, but we give warning and these are military targets, while they’re putting suicide bombers on school buses.”Hamas will say “But we’re fighting for freedom against a fascist ethnostate.”But, at the end of the day, all either side cares about is money and power, and getting their own people killed in order to keep their voters scared and angry, and fan their hatred of “the other” is the best way to maintain that.Fuck them both.
“The rightward Israeli shift can be directly tied to the half-decade of suicide bombings at the turn of the 21st century making it political poison to adopt anything but a “Tough on Hamas” stance.”We are very far apart if this is your opinion, its totally ahistorical. Hamas attacks have become more effective as their tech has improved but there hasn’t been an upsurge of suicide bombings and that can’t account for the average Israelis’ radicalization. Like I said, there’s little functional difference between the Likud and the rest, one of Bibi’s biggest rivals openly brags about his brutality on Gaza when he was in the military“But, at the end of the day, all either side cares about is money and power, and getting their own people killed in order to keep their voters scared and angry, and fan their hatred of “the other” is the best way to maintain that.”If this was the case then why not acquiesce to Israeli authority like the PTO? They could save themselves massive casualties if they did so, but it seems more likely that Hamas is responding to Palestinian outrage and desperation. Demonizing and dehumanizing them serves no purpose other than justifying this continual war and genocide.
The upsurge in suicide bombings was a the 700 deaths in a 5 year span 20 years ago.It’s easy to write off as history for you and I…but people who actually lived through that haven’t forgotten as easily as white, bourgeois Westerners have. We’re just now seeing a generation of Israeli voters who *don’t* intensely remember the 2nd intifada – and that’s why Netanyahu is losing his grip on power, and attempting to traumatize, isolate, and radicalize a new generation.
Lol, ease up on the white bourgeois Western thing, fellow white guyThose deaths were nothing compared to the losses suffered by the Palestinians and they were perpetrated after peaceful protests had already been met with violence
The ratios are important; though.The PA identified 40% of Palestinian casualties as civilians. Meanwhile, 70% of Israeli casualties were civilians.Israel’s ratios were in line with the UK and IRA’s, during the Troubles.Palestinian forces were closer to the UVF’s…because they were *waging a terror campaign against Israel’s civilian population*.Again, though, the whole thing is a grift – Hamas needs Israel to bomb them, so that their population is scared and angry, and they can fundraise (and avoid another party taking power, and selling Hamas out in exchange for aid from the US). Bibi needs Hamas to kill Israeli civilians, so he can keep them scared and angry, while maintaining his strongman schtick, to stay out of jail.
“The PA identified 40% of Palestinian casualties as civilians.”The PA is a proxy of the Israeli state, why would they be honest with those figures?“Meanwhile, 70% of Israeli casualties were civilians.”And why would Israel be honest either? And how does that figure account for a country with mandatory military service??“Again, though, the whole thing is a grift – Hamas needs Israel to bomb them, so that their population is scared and angry, and they can fundraise (and avoid another party taking power, and selling Hamas out in exchange for aid from the US).”You can spout out the same bullshit rhetoric and I can keep pointing out how its bullshit, we can do this all day.“Bibi needs Hamas to kill Israeli civilians, so he can keep them scared and angry, while maintaining his strongman schtick, to stay out of jail.”This right here is the most insidious part of your argument, pretending the Likud are any different from the rest, pretending that Israeli policy would in any functional way change under a different party or coalition, beside maybe less bombing and a temporary “ceasefire”. And as I’ve pointed out this just ignores Zionist settlement expansion, and population transfers and military occupation of illegally held territory. It ignore the Apartheid state, by pretending its a singular party behind it
Yeah, Bennett’s a piece of shit, but even 5 years of de-escalation will help the Israeli left gain a foothold they haven’t had since Sharon’s stroke killed Kadima in the cradle.
Which, again will do nothing, Gaza will still be blockaded and immiserated, Palestinians will still be thrown out of their homes and gangs of militant Zionists will still harass Palestinians whenever the IDF gets bored. The only real hope for change is if US withdraws its support and that’s only possible if international and domestic outrage becomes too widespread to ignore. So anytime another “nuanced” fellow feels the need to point out violence perpetrated by Hamas or imagined anti-Semitism that exists in the minds of Zionists who mistake “Free Parking” signs for “Free Palestine” and then imagine an international Pogrom is about to ignite halts the only path towards progress
One of the great holes in any theodicy is that Rabin and Sharon were struck down as their hearts had changed…while a corrupt, venal piece of shit like Netanyahu has clung to power.
They were struck down for not being brutal ENOUGH, doesn’t mean both weren’t still brutal. This is a country that elected the head of a “terrorist organization” responsible for the death of a Swedish diplomat, but apparently it was the suicide bombers that radicalized the population…
The blood on Rabin’s and Sharon’s hands gave them the standing to pursue peace without any fear of being called “soft.”That’s the tragedy of it.
The tragedy is the perpetuation of Zionism with the excuse of “Progressive quasi-socialism”
As for “saying ‘Terrorists Bad’ then shutting my brain off”:I live in Ireland, man. My last name tells everyone I have family in Cork.I’m quite comfortable saying “The UVF are evil fucks who murdered children in order to perpetuate an apartheid state, with the implicit and explicit support of the UK. Also, the Provisional IRA are evil fucks who murdered children, in an attempt to create international pressure that would abolish Northern Irish apartheid.”I support one group’s goals far more than the others’…but they’re all evil, child-murdering fucks.
Then your understanding of history is overly simplified
lol.A Corbyn Stan account calling anyone else’s view of history “overly simplified” is rich, to say the least.The provos celebrated when they murdered a couple of kids and an old woman, because they also got Mountbatten.Hamas praises suicide bombers on city buses as martyrs.Meanwhile, the ANC would denounce MK folks who killed civilians as either having gone rogue, or having fucked up.Hamas and Likud don’t *want* things to get better, because their hold on power is explicitly tied to keeping their population suffering and afraid.
“A Corbyn Stan account calling anyone else’s view of history “overly simplified” is rich, to say the least.”Yeah, sure, still waiting for you to point anything Corbyn has said or believes that is anti-Semitic, but I’m not holding my breath. Dude seems pretty well-intentioned for a politician and he seemed to be the only thing standing between neoliberalism and the UK welfare state, but whatever.“The provos celebrated when they murdered a couple of kids and an old woman, because they also got Mountbatten.”Well they were targeting Mountbatten, so cause enough for celebration, lol“Meanwhile, the ANC would denounce MK folks who killed civilians as either having gone rogue, or having fucked up.”So the ANC criticized its own militant wing? Ok, cool. Did that erase the civilian casualties or change MK methods that led directly to overthrow of the Apartheid regime? It seems to me your blanket condemnation of “terrorism” despite probably understanding why its used by smaller, materially poorer sides of a conflict is ultimately useless, especially when the terror used and promoted by Western powers is so much more extensive.“Hamas and Likud don’t *want* things to get better, because their hold on power is explicitly tied to keeping their population suffering and afraid.”Hamas’ power is explicitly tied to its support within the Palestinian community. When you have people purposefully immiserated and terrorized by Israel who put their lives in jeopardy everytime they throw a rock at a fully armed IDF soldier and who manage to build actual explosives in one of the most densely populated, highly controlled and restricted, desolate places on Earth, you have to acknowledge the CAUSE of those actions, it can’t be boiled down to something as simple as “Hamas indoctrination”
Hamas’s rising to power is absolutely because of Israeli oppression.It’s also true that Hamas is incentivized to continue that oppression in order to remain in power.To be clear: I draw a firm distinction between “Hamas” and “Gaza citizen,” just like I do “Provo” and “Catholic”…and just like I do Netanyahu’s far right coalition and “Israelis.”
“Hamas’s rising to power is absolutely because of Israeli oppression.”
AND from direct funding to counteract Fatah and the PLO, but they were still elected and they still maintain control due to their serving the Palestinian interests, which is resistance to an Apartheid ethnostate and its policies of ethnic cleansing and population transfer“To be clear: I draw a firm distinction between “Hamas” and “Gaza citizen,” just like I do “Provo” and “Catholic”…and just like I do Netanyahu’s far right coalition and “Israelis.””And to be clear those distinction are far thinner than you admit. The term “Palirat” is not just whispered in private anymore, I’ve spoken to enough Israelis and listened to enough interviews of the general public to know just how radical they’ve become.
I’ve got leftist friends who hate Netanyahu, but are serving in the IDF so that they can vote.Yay, anecdotes!
So they beat Palestinians and arrest children so they might eventually vote out on Right-wing fascist for another?
It’s whether the Palestinian populace would continue to support their shitheadery, if Israel stopped Likud’s.
citation needed, friend. I have plenty of Palestinian friends, none support Hamas, none have done violence themselves. Hamas isn’t both a terrorist organisaton AND a democratically-elected group with the mandate of the Palestinians. They’re just terrorists. To hold the Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hamas is facile and wrongful.
You’re right – I should have qualified that with “Gazan,” rather than letting the white 20 year old Twitter warrior here suck me into his paradigm, haha.
Yes, I do think Israel shoulders more of the blame for the conflict for numerous reasons. No, I don’t think Hamas would stop killing Jewish civilians if Israel stopped their expansion. It’s possible, but I don’t find it very likely given their rhetoric.
Then I don’t understand the point of your rhetoric
My point is that Hamas shouldn’t get a pass for killing civilians simply because Israel is oppressive and responds disproportionately. Is that so hard to understand?
It is when you’re talking about a target of aggression’s response to aggression. Its the kind of nuance that halts the conversation, it doesn’t enrich it in anyway by pointing out “killing is bad”
I’m not saying that every discussion of Israel’s bad behavior has to include a “Hamas is also bad” disclaimer. But anyone who takes a position that acknowledges their part in the violence and bloodshed is attacked by the left. Kinda’ like what you’ve been doing.
I’m questioning your motivation in doing so. Its like complaining when a bee stings you before you crush it, it just doesn’t make sense as to why you would be so fixated on it
What? Why would you assume that I’m “fixated” on anything? We’re commenting on an article that’s critical of Mark Ruffalo for modulating his previous stance on the violence and taking a more nuanced stance. It’s completely relevant to the topic at hand to discuss the role that Hamas plays in the conflict.
Its not relevant when talking about how that “nuance” that both you and Ruffalo adopt does nothing to address the real issues at hand
There can be more than one “real issue.” Most people’s brains are capable of understanding differences of scale and assigning appropriate levels of blame where and how it’s deserved. Though clearly some people refuse to do so because they care more about their political agenda than actual human lives.
“Though clearly some people refuse to do so because they care more about their political agenda than actual human lives.”This very clearly and obviously describes you and people like you. People who like to feel superior by saying ‘Both sides are crazy” Leno-style while Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed and immiserated by Israel and Cubans are being similarly immiserated by US Sanctions
I’ve said very clearly that I don’t agree with Israel’s actions in regards to Palestine and that they’re more to blame for the conflict. I haven’t said it clearly, but I’m also against the US embargo and think we should normalize relations with Cuba because they’re no different than other countries we’re chummy with like Saudi Arabia. I’m not sure why you insist that acknowledging the failings of both sides of a conflict in their proper proportion and scope makes someone a pie-in-the-sky centrist who refuses to take a stand. Good for you for being so self-assured and self-righteous, but I will not be shamed for acknowledging reality.
“I haven’t said it clearly, but I’m also against the US embargo and think we should normalize relations with Cuba because they’re no different than other countries we’re chummy with like Saudi Arabia.”Talk about arguing from bad faith, really?? The country with slaves and Wahhabist style Sharia law, that actively funds Wahhabist extremists that go on to slaughter Shia, who use the money that comes from their oil to enrich themselves and build an unsustainable dystopian nightmare of a country on land with no real access to water, the ones who launched a blockade around Yemen that’s currently starving and killing thousands and creating a whole new generation of children deformed from malnourishment? That is the country you are comparing to Cuba? Where’d all that “nuance” go??
Fair point. I should have said “no worse” rather than “no different.” I agree that Saudi Arabia is a more destructive force than Cuba by far.
This is the weirdest kind of centrist argument, like what does approaching this situation from the middle actually accomplish?No, it’s not actually and how does an individual in a country that’s technically not involved accomplish anything in this situation? I’m going to take a guess and assume you’ll say donate, but how can I if both sides are in the wrong?
Well anyone not from the States I assume can only do so much, but withIN the States they can pressure their elected officials, organize protests or to vote out politicians. Because ultimately it IS the US that continues this conflict, it protects Israel from any action by the UN, and it gives it billions of dollars every year. For all intents and purposes Israel is a proxy of the US, just like South Africa was to it and the UK, the only difference is South Africa stopped being a useful tool after the Cold War“I’m going to take a guess and assume you’ll say donate, but how can I if both sides are in the wrong?”-And here is precisely why that centrist argument fails, both sides aren’t wrong if ONE side fuels the conflict. Debating the morality between Israel and Hamas is like debating the morality of a prison and a prison gang. Its the prison that creates the structural inequalities, that deny basic human rights, immiserate the prisoners, etc, so it is ultimately the responsibility of the prison to change
both sides aren’t wrong if ONE side fuels the conflict.and here’s where we both disagree.
“and here’s where we both disagree.”And this is why the Left has to do some serious soul-searching when there are those within who can’t recognize Apartheid
the LeftAnd this is why you’re a fucking idiot as I’m not on the left but hey, at least you tried to make the dunk.
“And this is why you’re a fucking idiot as I’m not on the left but hey, at least you tried to make the dunk.”Lol, you have GMG Union for your profile pic, dude…
You’re equating my profile picture with my political affiliation? JFC you’re an idiot and a strawman. Clearly, you see things in black and white and fail to see the nuance in life.
LOL, holy shit, are you real?? You have to deliberately add that pic otherwise its blank, dude, so either you chose that to somehow ‘own the Libs’ or you have such an incoherent political worldview that you don’t actually understand what Left/Right dichotomy actually IS
You are so fucking stupid I can’t with you.
Lol, yeah, sure, clown, thankfully I was addressing the Left in my comments. So you can kindly fuck off now
I can’t tell if you’re a troll or just fucking dumb, probably both. I’ve yet to clarify my position at all beyond “not on the left” and “here’s where we both disagree”, yet here you are, giving yourself a self-sucking congratulatory blowjob in the comments because you seem to believe you’ve owned me by just… assuming things, I guess?I’d be amused if it wasn’t so fucking pathetic.
The fact that you’ve yet to clarify ANY of your inane simple-minded beliefs after dropping in on a conversation you had no business in means my assumptions were perfectly reasonable. You have nothing of any importance to say, you’re intellectually vapid and immoral. The Israel-Palestine debate isn’t “nuanced”, its a clear cut example of oppressor/oppressed, if you can’t see that then shut the fuck up and go bother someone else.
dropping in on a conversation you had no business inUh huh. Tell me more about how the second comment in this thread isn’t mine that says “I’m staying out of this debate”. I don’t owe you this argument like you believe I do.Captain Dumbfuck making assumptions again:“your inane simple-minded beliefs”
“you’re intellectually vapid and immoral”
“if you can’t see that then shut the fuck up”
All that because I don’t want to debate some random asshole on the internet? It’s almost like you’re the simple-minded condescending cunt as you clearly lack the comprehension skills to understand why someone wouldn’t want to argue with a self-righteous asshole like yourself.
Lol, you’re the troll who started this shit, scumbag, so go fuck yourself. You came into this whole thing with the extraordinary opinion of “All sides are bad!” like some kind of stuck up douchebag, why are you wasting your time here when you could be writing for South Park??You don’t care about the suffering and deaths of Palestinians, you’re a soft-skulled racist prick- the very sort I was NOT addressing in my post. So once again, shut the fuck up and eat shit
Lol… so now I’m a racist troll because I don’t want to talk to you about this with you? Try not to have a brain aneurism while you do gymnastics to jump to conclusions. We’re obviously done here as you’ve ran out of assumptions and self-projection, choosing to resort to faux-racism accusations instead. Please, come back to this thread in a few months once you’ve calmed down so you can see how incredibly fucking dumb you sound.
You had the aneurism somewhere along the line because you forgot that YOU addressed me, not the other way around. My comment was directed to Leftists( or rational people who might be able to recognize Apartheid and ethnic cleansing) and you chose to jump in with- how does an individual in a country that’s technically not involved accomplish anything in this situation? Like a complete fucking moron, b/c one assumes you meant the fucking US which gives billions to keep the fucking conflict going and which uses Israel as a client state for its empire.So when I respond to this complete rando-nobody dipshit loser, say they should pressure their government to pressure Israel as the main instigator of the conflict, this batshit racist cunt chimes in with- and here’s where we both disagree.As if there was an honest debate to be had on whether or not the stateless militia supporting the stateless permanent underclass in an open air prison had anywhere NEAR the culpability for the conflict as the fucking Apartheid government that keeps kicking said underclass out of their lands and replacing them with Zionist Jews. Just the most racist, vile, mush-brained thinking that could only come from the stupidest cunts on Earth.And NOT the thinking of a person I was addressing in the first place, I was talking to the people with a fucking brain in their skulls who can recognize, “Hey Israel’s doing some messed up shit, right?” but then temper that down with, “Oh but Hamas are some bad dudes, too” and might even go further with, “We should focus on toning down the rhetoric before it becomes anti-Semitic.”But again, knowing the obvious truth was the BASELINE, I did not invite cunts who think otherwise so kindly fuck off, you racist POS
Please, get some help. I’m being absolutely serious here, not trolling you. You’ve got some serious underlying mental issues that become increasingly obvious with each outlandish claim you make. I’m actually worried about your mental state, despite the constant attacks you’ve made against me.
LOL, yeah sure. You came out swinging first there, cunt. So as always, go fuck yourself!
Or just be mad, cheers.
Why would I be mad about a troll? I would’ve given up on the internet entirely if pathetic little cunts like you upset me. As always, eat shit!:)
It’s pretty obvious you’re mad lol. It’s also obvious that you have to be the last one to comment. So here you go, leave your last comment, prove me right, and we can be done with this.
Lol, I don’t like to leave trolls unanswered, its true. But you’re too simple-minded to anger me. I hate racists and I hate people who justify Apartheid and ethnic cleansing, but you can’t even own up to it, so I can’t hate on cowardly little cunts. So have a pleasant day and kindly eat shit!
Oh, and in case I wasn’t clear, my initial comments were addressed to Leftist/Liberals, NOT Right-wing crank Apartheid/Ethnic Cleansing deniers
All the assumptions with literally zero evidence to back it up. God damn. Stop while you’re a mile behind.
What assumptions? Like that you deny Israel is an apartheid state? And the ethnic cleansing?? That’s a pretty basic logical deduction if you believe Israel is NOT driving the conflict. Maybe you’re some kind of centrist “both-sides-are-crazy clown, but I can’t imagine those types of people are motivated enough to even bother adding an opinion they probably just stole from South Park…
This is exactly the problem; an extremely complicated geopolitical situation distilled into a simple fight between goodies and baddies.
The vast, vast majority of people commenting about the conflict online have nothing more than a childlike understanding of the issues, which the writer of this article might do well to realise, don’t simply fit on the back of a napkin in bullet points.
Tell that to the U.N. Commission on the Sabra-Shatila massacre that found that Israel had committed “a type of genocide.” That one goes back to 1982 so the Israelis have been at this for awhile now.
Technically, what happened in Sabra and Shatila was that the Israelis did nothing to prevent (and a little to facilitate) genocidal acts by Lebanese Christian militias against the Muslim Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps. The situation is more nuanced than “Israel has committed genocide before and is still doing it.”
This is correct. I’d also add that the UN isn’t considered the best source (see- heavily biased) for findings when it comes to the Israel/Palestine conflict.
Failing to act, and offering even a little support, to stop a genocide is committing a genocide.
I don’t need a lesson from you on what happened at Sabra and Shatila. The U.N. didn’t just decide on a whim to declare that Israel had committed genocide, and the Israelis did a lot more than just stand by and do nothing. Not only did they actively aid and abet the phalangists in doing so, they trained the phalangist militia. The Phalangists might have been the bullet but it was Israel who fired the gun.
And no matter how much you tell yourself the situation is more nuanced, it pretty much does boil down to the Israelis have committed genocide before and are still doing it.
See, you are doing the thing that this thread is talking about….the fact that you can’t even see it is 75% of the problem.
The Phalangists didn’t need Israel’s help in massacring fellow Lebanese, and suggesting that it was Israel who “fired the gun” removes all agency from the Lebanese, who were brutally murdering each other for half a decade before Sabra and Shatila.
There can be more than one gun.
That’s not how bullets work.
It’s a metaphorical gun, dumbass. Clearly, I mean there can be two shooters or two problems. Jesus Christ, are you that fucking dumb?
And what do you mean “That’s not how bullets work”. That statement doesn’t even fucking make sense.
NEBE wants to completely ignore the fact that the IDF were allies of the Phalanges militia, and that the IDF ordered the Phalanges to clear PLO forces out of the camps, after the PLO had been evacuated out of Beirut by the Multinational Force. The IDF and Phalanges were just waiting for the PLO evacuation before going in and commiting genocide.This is an exchange at the time between American Ambassador Morris Draper and Ariel Sharon when American diplomats were trying to get Israel to withdraw the IDF immediately from Beirut. Sharon agreed to only a gradual withdrawal and Draper warned him what would happen.
Draper:
Sure, the IDF is going to stay in West Beirut and they will let the Lebanese go and kill the Palestinians in the camps.And this was Sharon’s reply:So, we’ll kill them. They will not be left there. You are not going to save them. You are not going to save these groups of international terrorism…If you don’t want the Lebanese to kill them, we will kill them.*Keep in mind that Sharon said this knowing there were only women, children and old men were left in the camps.*New York Times, A Preventable Massacre, Seth Anziska, 9-16-2012
While not excusing the Phalanges or the Israelis, I would point out that the Lebanese civil war was characterized by precisely this kind of massacre being done by everyone. The Israelis didn’t ally themselves with the Phalanges because they just happened to be looking for the worst people around; they allied themselves with the Phalanges because the same people who were massacring Jewish civilians were targeting Maronite Catholics too.
Yep. It is genocide. By definition.“The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260. The Convention entered into force on 12 January 1951. It defines genocide in legal terms”Definition of genocide:Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as… any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2Article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:(a) Genocide;(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;(d) Attempt to commit genocide;(e) Complicity in genocide.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 3
Yeah…literally none of those things apply to Israel’s ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza.
But we are not allowed to point the finger at the descendants of the victims of the Holocaust, because it isn’t politically correct, right?
the notion that 1) this is not genocide and 2) that accurately describing israel’s war crimes is being used to justify antisemitism are absurd. this actually is pretty black and white. settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing are bad.
Better keep quiet if your opinion does not agree with the SJW woke crowd or you could find yourself out of a job. Thank god I am rich and retire and don’t give a fuck. #DefundIsreal
ok but Israel forced the Palestinians into a ghetto and routinely bomb it, so maybe it is genocide?
ok but Israel forced the Palestinians into a ghetto and routinely bomb it, so maybe it is genocide?
No. A genocide is the attempted destruction of a population and that isn’t what is happening here. There are so many horrible things caused by Israel and people want to ignore them so they can throw hyperbole around. It might make you feel better but it doesn’t help.
“No,” Israel didn’t forcibly concentrate Palestinians in Gaza? “No,” Israel doesn’t routinely bomb Gaza? “No,” that doesn’t count as genocide?
No. That doesn’t. All of those are horrible but neither of those constitutes the destruction of the populace. Gaza’s population has been increasing since Israel took over (and not just steadily, but a lot!). The Palestinian population is no immediate danger of being eradicated.
We need to be arguing and defending against Israel’s annexation of Palestine, its Apartheid subjugation of Palestinians, and turning Gaza into a prison. Arguing against a genocide that isn’t happening just provides a smoke screen for Israel’s actions.
Netanyahu and his homicidal cohorts absolutely want to wipe the Palestinians from the face of the earth so yes it is the attempted destruction of a population
They are forced to live in a ghetto, are routinely bombed, and Israel has a strict embargo on them (including cement for the aforementioned bombed buildings)Tell me again this isn’t a genocide.
Tell me again this isn’t a genocide.
That isn’t genocide. The population keeps growing year after year. Genocide isn’t “a lot of horrible things”, it is the attempted destruction of a populace.
Everything that you mentioned is an actionable offense. You don’t have to use hyperbole to accomplish something. If anything, it’s less effective because you’re pretending its genocide.
I’ll bite. It’s not genocide. What would you consider the corralling of a people for bombing and control? Is it a positive thing?
Is it a positive thing?
Of course not. How stupid would that be? I’m not sure if you’re just not a native English speaker so you don’t understand that “genocide” is not the same thing as “atrocity” or you’re just so deluded that you think everybody needs to call something the worst thing they could possibly think of, otherwise they are praising it.
it is genocide tho. it’s state sanctioned violence against the Palestinians.
Did you know that not all state sanctioned violence is genocide?Crazy, I know.
My stance is sort of one being that actors probably shouldn’t wade into thorny geo-political isssues like this at all in the first place.We have a conflict here thats been lasting decades, involving citizens dead on both sides of the border over that timeline. I’m not totally sure we need The Hulk to try and solve it in one internet video.
Genocide itself isn’t black and white in practice. Everyone who has ever excused ongoing genocides has said exactly what you’re saying.
Yeah, as a rule of thumb, if an ethnic minority in a country is forced to live in certain places against their will, it’s probably appropriate to call state violence against them in those places, “a form of genocide.”“We didn’t commit genocide,” says every country that’s ever done this, including the US, Turkey, China, Myanmar, etc. And if you asked Native Americans, Armenians, Uyghurs, the Rohingya and others about it….they might disagree with that assessment.
This is a complete tangent but I have so many props to give for you using the name “Jubal Harshaw”. One of my favorite literary characters of all time.
Yeah I was going to post something but this says pretty much everything. I would only add that in this specific case of calling out genocide/apartheid etc., people seem reticent to use those words in most situations except Israel-Palestine. It doesn’t make it untrue in Israel-Palestine – I know enough to know that I honestly don’t really know whether it’s relevant, as I’ve never been there nor studied the region much – but it makes it a bit suspect to me that it’s rarely used in other situations where it at the very least seems just as applicable.
Just underscores why celebrities’ opinions don’t matter and they should all STFU
Israel is most definitely committing genocide. They’re just doing it nice and slow, and giving their victims juuuuust enough rope to work up some guerrilla resistance (and some historically-predictable zealotry and revanchism) so they’ve got even more excuses to keep it churning.I mean yeah, the Palestinians are chock full of bad shit. But of course they are. Good citizens are not born inviolate. They are created, and they are maintained. That takes resources. It takes effort. It takes protection from all the many, many groups who stand to benefit more from a population full of gullible, angry, ignorant, voiceless people who can be demonized and/or weaponized trivially.We can’t get good citizens to pop up from a cornfield here in the U.S.A. You expect them to be shooting up from cracks in the bombed-out concrete of the Middle East? You expect them to fucking survive even if they manage it? That’s fucking bonkers.Seriously, drop a bomb on a guy’s house and call him a coward for hiding among his children, then call him a monster for supporting the guys shooting back at the bomb-droppers. How dare he not bravely report himself to the nearest Glorious Honorable Death booth instead, denounce the enemy of his enemy as his final act on this earth, and just, you know, give peace a chance already?
The problem is that the Israel lobby has done their utmost to equate the two. They very nearly succeeded equating anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism, that’s official US policy at this point, regardless of whether its a Rep or Dem in the White House. Just the speed at which most of the media went from covering Sheikh Jarrah and Gaza to focusing almost entirely on Anti-Semitism is astonishing
And yet…so many people STILL can’t manage to criticize Likud’s atrocities without engaging in genuinely anti-Semitic Bullshit, playing right into Bibi’s bloodstained hands.
I’ve barely seen ANY anti-Semitic bullshit that justifies the media narrative. It’s almost like the Israel lobby has spent billions each year trying to tie together criticism of Zionism itself with anti-Semitism, thereby cheapening actual anti-Semitism and allowing even the expression of Palestinian solidarity to be construed as hateful.
Hah, I’ve been living in Europe the last few years. The populist left on this side of the pond doesn’t know how to dogwhistle, so they just replace “Jew” with “Zionist” in old anti-Semitic tropes.The most trenchant, vicious takedowns of Likud and the “Anti-Zionism=Anti-Semitism” crowd tend to come from J Street folks (Progressive American Jews)…because they don’t have centuries of engrained Anti-Semitism underpinning their thoughts and language.
“The populist left on this side of the pond doesn’t know how to dogwhistle, so they just replace “Jew” with “Zionist” in old anti-Semitic tropes.”This is just blatantly defamatory. The idea that there’s any widespread anti-Semitism within the populist Left is ridiculous. Its like the smears against Jeremy Corbyn, most people are smart enough to get it. As I said, its the Israel Lobby( Evangelical Christians being a huge chunk of said lobby) that has equated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism
Hahaha, thanks for bringing up Corbyn for me.Maggie Hodge manages to excoriate Israeli policy towards Palestine *without* engaging in Anti-Semitic tropes. So does Bernie Sanders. So does Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, for that matter.Corbyn never got the hang of it.
Never met an anti-Corbynite that wasn’t also anti-Sanders and Cortez, you’re a unicorn. Then again Sanders wasn’t smeared to the extent of Corbyn and his criticism of Israel isn’t nearly as passionate. Corbyn has been consistently liberal in his beliefs since the beginning, he was only smeared as an anti-Semite to purge him and his supporters from Labor
I don’t like Leavers or Provo apologists, haha.Corbyn was labeled an anti-Semite because he kept saying anti-Semitic shit, (e.g. thinking he could just replace the word “Jew” with “Zionist” in dual-loyalty smears) and would intervene when his inner-circle said far worse shit, to protect them from punishment.I don’t think he’s evil. Just an old white lefty from England who thinks calling himself an anti-racist excuses him from confronting his own unexamined unconscious biases.
People who can say “This is wrong and bad” from a place of *empathy* tend to be much more effective at changing minds than folks shrieking about how the only way to deal with Die Juden’s money controlling the media and the governments to let them feast on children is to boycott their businesses and break their windows.
“than folks shrieking about how the only way to deal with Die Juden’s money controlling the media and the governments to let them feast on children is to boycott their businesses and break their windows”This is just you swallowing a media narrative that has nothing to do with “Die Judens” and everything to do with US Foreign Policy interests
The media narrative of…Progressive Jews who hate Netanyahu?
The Anti-Corbyn smear campaign was intense, and even state side there are attempts at accusing Progressives like Sanders and Cortez of Anti-Semitism sprinkled through the occasional Op-Eds
It is genocide though
Yes this exactly this is not black and white. Its also not Belfast or White Settlers vs Native Americans. Please stop using the Native American genocide as an example no this not the same thing and citing doesn’t make you look woke. It just shows how piss poor the American school system is. Signed an actual Aboriginal.Honestly half the problem with any conversation regarding the Palestinian Israeli conflict is most people don’t scrape the surface in terms of actually understanding it. At best most get a decent understanding of one incident and extrapolate from there. Its thousands of years of history and so many different motives in play. The internet is not a great place for in depth debate.
Yep – it’s so fucking easy to criticize that fascist thug Bibi and his enablers in Likud without engaging in anti-Semitism…and yet so many people can’t seem to manage it.
Uh no… israel has committed actual, by-the-definition genocide.
He had it correct the first time. It is a slow-motion genocide. First, Israel eliminated any land for a two state solution. Then the blockade left Palestinians in Gaza malnourished. Genocide doesn’t have to involve violent deaths. It is a slow breaking of the will to survive through denial of freedom. Call it what it is.
The Hulk actor’s statement in defense of Chris Pratt after he was deemed the “Worst Chris” in the industry was a more firmly supportive position than where Ruffalo stands now on this major political issue.It’s almost like that his opinion on that issue was a humorous, low-stakes position to have, because the issue was stupid. You know, as opposed to a more complicated and important situation like Israel and Palestine.
The point is he came out more strongly on that extremely stupid issue than he did on this one
You know, I had strong opinions about this, but then I saw that the guy who was the fifth male lead in the Now You See Me franchise had an opinion and then walked it back, so I don’t know what to think any longer. I’m so confused and I rely so heavily on entertainers to give me guidance. This just isn’t fair for him to waffle like this.Thank God you provide excellent representations of random dipshits on Twitter to help me through this. I appreciate the work you do.
the fifth male lead in the Now You See Me franchise Jesus that was brutal but also hilarious. I’m for it.
now if Ed Norton has thoughts, I’d consider those worth hearing
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think he’s saying the word genocide is wrong to use, not that he know agrees that Israel isn’t doing anything(because they are doing things wrong….). It’s more the use of the word genocide is the issue here. This seems to have happened after the likes of Majorie-Taylor Green equate wearing masks in the capital to the Holocaust.I figured that’s what he was referring.
It may not be genocide but 200 dead vs 10 sure doesn’t sound like a fair fight.
evicting families from their homes so you can install European and America settlers is genocide.
Evicting a handful of non-paying renters from properties they do not own, after they have had the opportunity to prove their property rights in court, is not genocide.
Israel has no right to the land in which it’s built.
It’s a settler colonial project through and through.
The specific case of the evictions in Sheikh Jarrah is about Palestinians who were settled in the homes owned by Jews in the neighborhood of Shimon HaTzadik before the 1948 war, who themselves fled from Jordanian forces for fear of death. Since Jordan never officially granted the Palestinians resident there ownership of the homes, the Jews who fled remained legal owners; the Jewish owners sued for their homes back, but Israeli courts upheld the rights of the Palestinians living there to remain, as long as they paid rent to the legal owners of the homes. The Palestinians refused to pay rent and are therefore being evicted.
and the context of the war was….?oh right, it was the owners of the land fighting back against colonizers.
it’snot their land to administer hth
They were people who purchased their land, had it removed from their ownership through legal chicanery decades ago without their knowledge as a result of their ethnicity, and were never asked or directed to pay rent to anyone and are now suddenly being ordered off this land they thought they owned. Cut the bullshit talking points.
The specific case of the evictions in Sheikh Jarrah is about
Palestinians who were settled in the homes owned by Jews in the
neighborhood of Shimon HaTzadik before the 1948 war, who themselves fled
from Jordanian forces for fear of death. Since Jordan never officially
granted the Palestinians resident there ownership of the homes, the Jews
who fled remained legal owners; the Jewish owners (or the people to whom they sold their legal property) sued for their homes
back, but Israeli courts upheld the rights of the Palestinians living
there to remain, as long as they paid rent to the legal owners of the
homes. The Palestinians refused to pay rent and are therefore being
evicted. Literally none of this is “sudden.” The legal disputes have been ongoing for decades.
During that war, Israel forcibly displaced 80 percent of the Palestinian population to create a Jewish majority in the newborn state. In 1956, the Jordanian government and the United Nations agreed to build 28 houses in Sheikh Jarrah to house some of these families. They have been living in these houses as tenants since 1956. First there was a contract with the Jordanian government that was to transfer ownership to the families after three years. However, time passed, and the ownership was not transferred to the families. Instead, the Jordanian government transferred jurisdiction of the land over to what’s called the “Custodian of Enemy Property” inside the Jordanian government that managed the properties. The residents continued to live in these houses, but in 1967, East Jerusalem became occupied by Israel, and during this period, settler groups claimed ownership of the land on which the houses were built. They then asked the Israeli government to evict the families that lived in these houses.Around this time, the Palestinian residents hired an Israeli lawyer to defend them. They learned only later that, at the time, the lawyer had conceded that this land was owned by the Jewish settler group—the plaintiffs—and the tenants were given a status of “protected tenant.” They became considered tenants who were expected to pay rent. They say that they were never approached by anyone since the ’70s to pay rent, never told how much the rent was or to whom they should pay it. Years later, the Israeli settler organization came back with new cases to evict these families using the law that regulates leasing real estate for not paying rent.Since then, a settler organization has been choosing families to sue, claiming that these families should be evicted. In 2009, there were already four families that were evicted from their houses as a result of these cases, and they have been replaced with Israeli Jewish settlers. Now there is a wave of more cases against more residents to evict them from their homes.
Jesus Christ.
They’ve been living there their entire goddamn lives.
Which is why Israeli courts ruled that they were protected residents and could not be evicted except for nonpayment of rent, because while Israeli law recognized the property as being legally the property of the previous Jewish owners (or whoever they had sold it to), it also recognized that evicting people from places they’ve lived their entire lives is unfair. All they had to do was pay rent.
Yes, with all the money they make with their having to cross a frequently-closed border multiple times to get to work
What kind of fucked up shit is this response. “legal right” you know the Israeli courts are bullshit right, there is nothing legal about them. These people are renters, some of them even own the homes they are being evicted from.
The Israeli judicial system is not some third-world kangaroo court. Israel has a respected and independent legal system that routinely curtails the government’s power.
Exactly. Yes, it is. “The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948 as General Assembly Resolution 260. The Convention entered into force on 12 January 1951. It defines genocide in legal terms”Definition of genocide:Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as… any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:(a) Killing members of the group;(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2Article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:(a) Genocide;(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;(d) Attempt to commit genocide;(e) Complicity in genocide.— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 3
Okay so maybe it is a genocide
This logic doesn’t really make that much sense though when you think about it. We don’t look at events like the Gulf War, the Battle of New Orleans, or the Battle of the Little Bighorn and say “Man, look at those mismatched casualty numbers. Must be unfair!”
The Gulf War was not a mismatch. The Iraqi military force was one of the most feared in the world at the time, and no one knew how it would play out. The Battle of Little Bighorn is an apt-enough description, since it was part of the–still ongoing–U.S. genocide of the indigenous people, only the oppressors lost.
I said mismatched *casualty numbers.* In terms of deaths, we’re talking 25,000 to 250 for the Gulf War. Battle of Little Bighorn was ~250 to 31. New Orleans was 285 to 13. In both the last two, the underdog actually won. And in the first, as you allude to, Iraq was actually quite strong. So my point is that it’s simplistic and wrong to say “Oh look at those lopsided casualties – must be an unfair match.”
“The Iraqi military force was one of the most feared in the world at the time”I’m sorry what
I mean maybe you don’t. But you are also on here saying Israel deserves to take this land so you can fuck off
“I mean maybe you don’t.”
This doesn’t seem to follow anything in the convo
I’m a “not a supporter of the Netanyahu government” Jew, and by no means an Israel apologist, but I find the comparing of death statistics to be a weird, misleading argument that doesn’t actually say much of anything, other than to highlight the fact that Israel has a really impressive (U.S. funded) missile defense system in place that blows up 90+% of Hamas rockets in the air. If the discussion is about “Who killed more of the other guy?” then we’re dealing with statistics instead of root causes.
Fuck Chris Elliott. That was my choice for worst Chris. I hate that guy.
Chris Penn would like a word, sir.
Thought it was mean to pick on the dead. But yeah, fuck that guy too. And Chris Klein. What a dick.
A little late for that, isn’t it?
Well, was ‘alive’ ever made clear under the qualifiers for “Worst Chris” beyond having the name? I’m going with No, it was Not.
Kristof Hitler?
His brother’s name is Chip.
Christopher Columbus has entered the chat
The director?
Works either way, really
Chris Brown is in the entertainment industry as well, but hey, if you can ignore a woman-beater to make fun of the Parks and Rec guy, you’ve got to do it every time.
What?
Making fun of the general hate for Pratt as “the worst Chris.”
I legit think this has more to do with what StarLord did in Infinity War than anything Pratt has ever done.
If it’s Chris Penn I’m sure it’s only got one syllable
LARRY STOP POINTIN’ THAT FUCKIN’ GUN AT MY DAAAAAAAAADDDDDD
Let’s not forget Chris D’Elia
try though we might
But forgetting him was going so well!
Chris Cuomo’s gotta be up there.
CHRIS ELLIOTT IS A GOD DAMN NATIONAL TREASURE.
Chris D’Elia
What about Chris Tianity? I swear that dude’s killed more people than the xenomorphs at this point.
You’re broken in the head if without reading anything about the actual history of the conflict since 1948, you still believe that Israel is the nation guilty of genocide.The Arab countries expelled more Jews from their homelands than the Palestinians, yet Israel accommodated their Jewish refugees. Furthermore, when Israel moved into those areas they tried to get the Palestinians living there to stay, but the Palestinian religious leaders forced everyone to leave under the expectation that the Arab armies would soon recapture the territory and would massacre all the Jews living there. Israel was willing to agree to a two state solution for the first twenty years, and the Palestinians only accepted it based on 1948 borders, after Israel was surprise attacked by three neighboring Arabic nations and fought them off and took more territory in the bargain. The same Arab nations keeping Palestinians in refugee camps instead of integrating them.
Maybe, just maybe, Hamas should have not fired missiles into Israel if they didn’t want Israel to retaliate, as they are wont to do from time to time….
Seeing as the alternative is being slowly ground into dust, I really can’t fault Hamas for shaking things up once in a while.
You can fault Hamas my friend. And to be clear, nobody wins here. All that happens is people in crossfire get hurt.
“You can fault Hamas my friend.”I sure can, but not strategically.
No. I can fault Israel. And i do.
I personally don’t quite get what gives Israel right to establish colonies and expect no opposition from the locals. I think this is classical case of bullied becoming bullies themselves.Personally I think only way to end this CF is to split the country and restrict both sides to their own side. Both sides have right to exists.
“shaking things up once in a while”Wow, I’ve seen a lot of nonsense in these comment boards but siding with Hamas terrorists is a new low.
Maybe Israel shouldn’t have evicted Palestinian families from their homes in occupied East Jerusalem in clear violation of international law. When Israel has removed all legal recourse for the Palestinians to defend themselves what else can they do? The point of the rockets is to be a deterrent, but in order for a deterrent to work you have to show how effective it is, and also that you are willing to use it. Hamas is going by Hezbolah’s play book, and since Hezbollah has improved its rocket capabilities, there hasn’t been another Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Hamas hopes that if they can show how deadly their rockets can be, Israel will think twice before brutalizing Palestinians.
When one side is constantly using force, force is the only way to defend yourself.
My point was simple. As history has shown time and time again: when you shoot at Israel, they are going to shoot back. Hard.
Again, their only alternative is to be slowly slaughtered by Israeli expansion. You don’t mind Palestinian death as long as it’s not happening on your TV.
The only reason you’re here writing in English on an US invented internet and on a US website is because the colonists shot at the world’s most powerful military and foolishly so. So many revolutions were hopeless. So many insurrections too. So many political movements seemed hopeless but once in a while they win out. Israel’s blowing up hospitals, journalists, and children isn’t enough to destroy the human spirit of the Palestinians yearning to be free. Godspeed Palestinians, may you get justice one day.
Yeah but until the US leverages it’s aid, especially military aid, to pressure Israel to back off it bulldozing further into the West Bank, what recourse does Palestine have?Maybe if they stuck within their borders and gave Palestinians living within annexed territories equal citizenship, would there be such desperate animosity?AIPAC spends a lot of effort and resources making sure both parties of the US government got their back as Benji continues to soil what little good faith Israel has with the rest of the world.
Well, Trump and David Freidman really didn’t help that situation you outline. There’s a metric shit ton of diplomatic rebuilding to be done, and it may be decades before anything changes. The right wing has taken Israel too far.
Tough talk.
Hamas is going by Hezbolah’s play book, and since Hezbollah has improved
its rocket capabilities, there hasn’t been another Israeli invasion of
Lebanon. Hamas hopes that if they can show how deadly their rockets can
be, Israel will think twice before brutalizing Palestinians.
There hasn’t been another invasion of Lebanon because Israel has literally no interest in doing so.
Hamas hopes that if they can show how deadly their rockets can be, Israel will think twice before brutalizing Palestinians.
Do you think launching 4,000 rockets to kill (checks notes) 12 people is an effective demonstration of lethality?
And there is little to no chance Hamas gives a shit about the Palestinian people other than as a means to an end.
Oh, on that we are in full agreement. The leadership of Hamas sees the Palestinian people as pawns at best, whose greatest utility is in being a corpse in a picture tweeted by the AP.
Hamas is literally comprised of Palestinian people.
So all Palestinians are Hamas, by your logic. Ok.
jesus fucking christ that is obviously not my logic
Yes, when most of those were $1000 homemade missile and no electronic jamming of Iron Dome was even attempted. Iron Dome real success rate is 60% at best and in terms of dollars is no contest. Israel spent and lose over $500 million dollars vs Hamas $20 million.
They fired that many rockets because they had to overwhelm the iron dome. Hamas achieved exactly what it wanted to.
I mean…Hamas’s foundations come from the Nazis and they preach murder of every Jew on the planet, and their goal isn’t deterrence: that’s Israel’s goal. Hamas’s goal…as they have never been shy about saying…is to murder every Jew on planet earth (not to mention any Palestinians who want to live side-by-side). They have murals of suicide bombers painted on local high schools. But being wrong on the internet isn’t new. The two-state solution has been proposed in good faith several times, always rejected.
A two-state solution?I don’t know, two Palestines seem like a lot of Palestines, but okay.
If Israel’s goal is deterrence it sure as fuck isn’t working, is it? Maybe they need to look into alternatives other than “kill civilians and keep taking their land”.
It isn’t? Deterrence doesn’t mean you can make people who want to murder you not want to murder you. It means they are less effective at doing so. Are you arguing this isn’t a fair fight because not enough Jews are dying and that Israel isn’t effectively deterring attacks at the same time? Considering the goal is to kill everyone in Israel, don’t you think there would be more attacks with less deterrence? The Palestinians have rejected the two-state solution again and again because they would rather kill Jews. Then they elect Hamas, who states their main goal is to kill all the Jews. Hamas shoots rockets at civilians, Israel attacks Hamas rocket encampments and heads of the organization who use civilians as shields, and the civilians continue to allow Hamas to use them as shields and support them. If Hamas never fired another bullet, and no Palestinian ever fired another bullet, there would be everlasting peace. Refute that.Gotta love all these people who talk about MLK one day and then “well if it’s Jews then go ahead” the next day.
MLK never said anything about it being cool to bomb children if they’re standing next to the bad guys. People who defend this policy always act like this is the only possible alternative to just letting Hamas kill them. There are no other options than killing children and continuing to expand the settlements. Encouraging the settlements, no less.What would you say to Israelis who oppose Netanyahu’s policies? Because they exist, y’know. The entire country isn’t Likud.
I think I would say there is a lot of daylight between loving settlement expansion and thinking 3000 rockets shot specifically at civilians is cool.Also, any deal would be land for land, and the Palestinians will never accept a two state solution, only the death of all Israelis…you know…from the charter of the government they elected in Gaza. So focusing on the settlements is only keeping alive the “right of return” which is only another way of saying “let us kill you.” It’s all just other ways of saying “let us kill you.” Hey, take down that mean wall…so we can kill you…it’s literally in our constitution…oh we deleted that one sentence? Age of aquarius man. Hey you’re not doing anything with those rockets are you? We want to fire them at children, but they’re Jews so it’s okay.
So do you believe that all Palestinians just inherently want to kill all Jews? That they’re born hating Israelis and wanting to murder them? That they wouldn’t possibly ever drift around to thinking otherwise?
I think that the people who voted for Hitler wanted Hitler to run Germany. Hamas was elected. Civilians volunteer their homes and hospitals and places of worship to rocket encampments. They support a group that intentionally only attempts to kill non-combatant children, and people like yourself support that because…the IDF is tough so firing 4300 rockets at towns and playgrounds is acceptable…because they’re Jews. Any other place in the world if you wage war solely on a civilian populace you’re called what you should be called. Nazis were partly behind the 1948 war, literal Nazis. The hatred from Palestinians was nurtured by them and the Iranis and the Russians as a proxy war, and now by people like yourself who tell the Palestinian people that it’s understandable that they would support Hamas. As long as you and your friends make support for Hamas acceptable, nothing is going to happen. Again: their covenant said “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it”…only ignorance and/or antisemitism would cause you to blame Israel for that. Here is one of Hamas’s leaders denying Israel’s right to exist again and saying that Hamas’s “victory” was a function of the group’s ability to fire rockets on densely populated Israeli civilian areas. This is what you are supporting.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-co-founder-to-uk-tv-israel-has-no-right-to-exist/
When you still end up killing a bunch of children, like regularly, intending not to is not the defense you think it is. “Collateral damage” is one of the most evil phrases of the modern era.I do not support Hamas. But I also do not support the principle of “they’re using kids as human shields, so we have no choice but to bomb those kids.” Nor does that have any bearing on the continued expansion of West Bank settlements, the denial of clean drinking water, shutting down goddamn vaccination facilities, blocking imports of fishing nets and other vital infrastructure, and on top of everything, since you seem to ignore this point, not allowing Palestine to exist as a separate state.
“Not allowing Palestine to exist as as separate state”And there goes all of your credibility. Israel has offered Palestine a separate state several times and each time they have been refused. This is an antisemitic myth that it didn’t happen. Each time the Palestinians, influenced by Iran Russia and their own hatred, decided it was better to kill Jews and that eventually they’d kill them all and get the land back. Iran told them that, they believed it, Iran never believed it, they just kept poisoning the people so they wouldn’t accept peace. They will never accept peace. You blame Jews, clearly, for people wanting to kill them, but the hatred of Jews runs too deep. They don’t want a separate state, they want to drive all Jews into the sea…which is what the covenant of Hamas says: “Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’”
So why does the occupation of the West Bank continue? Why are Israel building civilian settlements in that area? Why doesn’t Palestine control its own water supply? There shouldn’t be conditions on independent statehood. The occupation is illegal on its face and needs to end no matter what Hamas says.
Way to dance around your bad faith statement I called you on. And those things continue because: Palestine didn’t accept the two-state solution and left Israel at the altar multiple times.“There shouldn’t be conditions on independent statehood.” Feh. This idea that a state is a holy decree to which people are absolutely entitled does not exist in any society, you are basically agreeing with what the co-leader of Hamas says in the article I linked you. You’re only pretending you even think it does because ya don’t like them Hebrews (which I infer from your lying about Israeli attempts to reach a two-state solution). One condition that is common to recognition of statehood is an agreement to the state’s size and boundaries. Independent statehood was contingent upon, among other things (less attempted genocide of the Jews worldwide), land swaps. Land swaps were always going to be part of the deal. Several of the deals were okayed by international parties with authority and acting in good faith. The Palestinians decided the only swap they wanted was dead Jews in return for alive Jews. That’s always been the only swap they wanted. I know you are a fan of how Arab states in the 1970s weaponized the UN against Israel (while committing war crimes all the fucking time), but nearly-successful attempts to murder every single person in Israel in, to count a few, 1948, 1967, 1973 (where Israel had to threaten to nuke itself), not to mention every single day (but you think those count just because they’re only hitting a few kids on playgrounds, it’s cute really, right?), causes a country to think about protecting its borders for some reason. So you have actual continual attempts to commit genocide, and you have what you think is so much worse.
And now you’re accusing me of anti-Semitism because I think killing children is bad even if you don’t fully intend to. I might as well say you don’t like them Arabs much. Once again nobody can criticize Netanyahu and the Likud or Israeli’s ethnocentric policy which has gone so far as to sterilize Ethiopian immigrants without their knowledge or consent, because the Palestinians want them dead! The ends always justify the means, right? Because the enemy is bad it’s impossible to commit human rights violations! And anyone who disagrees with me hates Jewish people!
Keep dancing, buddy. And Netanyahu is a shitbird.
So stop defending his policies, and accusing anyone who criticizes him of being a Nazi. You can’t divorce the bombings from Netanyahu’s overall stance on Palestinians of any party, which is clearly that he would prefer they just stop existing. He has encouraged the violence to continue because he knows the danger to himself is minimal, and the reprisals stir up enough national pride that he can evade scandal, like he’s doing right fucking now. Like, it’s no coincidence that he was about to be ousted before this started and now his grip on power is as strong as ever. He’s fucking playing you and you don’t mind.
So I should let the Israeli people be murdered because otherwise I am being besties with Netanyahu? That’s all you have to tie what I’ve been saying to him? Netanyahu isn’t playing me in any way, he should be in jail.My comment insulting Netanyahu was greyed, did you do that? That’s a very childish thing to do.
Once again we circle back to “the only way we can prevent Israelis from being murdered is murdering children, there are no alternatives.”The violence did not start at random. It started with evictions which were politically timed to stir shit up at a time when Netanyahu was in trouble. Now he’s bulletproof again. You know what’s childish, accusing people who don’t like Israeli policy towards Palestine of hating Jewish people.
You’ve been disingenuous and either uninformed or lying, that’s established above, when you act that way with respect to certain topics you get a special badge. Wear yours.
So, once again, any questioning of Israeli military policy gets met with “you’re an antisemite.” I’m not playing that shit.
yeah, sure, that’s whyYou should go hang out on the WSJ comment board, your argumentation style, such as it is, has a lot in common with what I’ve seen there
I wonder if Israel realized that when it decided to fund and promote them to counteract Fatah and the PLO?
You realize you’re openly advocating for the murder of innocent Israeli citizens, right? Of course you do, you’re an antisemite.
Most of the time is machine guns vs rocks.
Congratulations…that’s been the rationale for every terrorist ever!
“But the Second Intifada!”“But X!”“But Y!”“But Z!”The great irony is that Bibi intentionally provoked this latest round of violence because Israelis had *voted him out*, and he doesn’t want to go to jail.Luckily for him, folks like Gabrielle, and yourself, are fairly insistent on playing right into his hands.
Maybe, just definitely, Hamas did want Israel to retaliate, which was exactly the point. What’s your advice for the millions of people there who have nothing to do with Hamas, just want to live in peace, and cannot leave?
Yes, there are no free passes given or implied for Hamas at all. As to advice, I have none to give. It’s a terrible, terrible situation.
Terrible situations are created by terrible people.
Over-responding to small skirmishes was also the excuse American settlers used to justify the slaughter of Native American tribes…
If a government brutalizes the other or simply stands by while its people brutalizes the other, eventually violence is going to erupt from those being brutalized. And then you can simply claim you were defending yourself and were forced into killing dozens of children and blowing up civilian targets like a building housing news organizations.
This. 100%.
Well, I’m not sure they bothered with justifying. Seemed like a lot of work at the time.
They did. You aren’t interested in historical analogues because it doesn’t help your genocide denial and ethnostate apologia that, to be clear, you’re engaging in here..
The Geneva Convention outlines that occupied peoples and those that live under racist states have the right to armed resistance to gain self-determination and liberation.
And maybe Bibi should stop authorizing the building of settlements.
Or maybe the Jews should not blockade them and steal their land.
Hamas is an extremist group, I don’t know why people keep using them as an excuse that innocent Palestinians deserve to be murdered by the government.
Shuuuuut theeee fuuuuuuuck up. Are you living in a different fucking universe? Do you know what is going on outside of what Conservative news tells you?
You’re assuming Hamas didn’t want Israel to retaliate. I’m sure it helps their fund-raising. Sadly the people who have nothing to do with Hamas and are just trying to get through their lives in one piece and were caught in the middle of the two sides weren’t polled on their feelings beforehand.
Biden is freeing up a couple billion in aid for Palestine, after Douchebag cut it off.
If you were in their place youd probably want to do the same thing. Its real easy to judge from the privileged position of an american whose house and family are never going to be destroyed by bombs.
You should know, Hamas doesn’t give a shit about Palestinians. Their leadership is sitting comfortably outside of Israel. If anything they benefit from the fighting as they keep control of the Gaza Strip. Hamas is like the children who throw stones, they are no threat. The IDF can very easily raid suspected Hamas bases in the Gaza Strip, why bomb and entire apartnent complex? Trust me Hamas did not suffer from this last round of bombing. It was those poor Palestinian people who suffer. Those who are just trying to live their lives.
I know , they should just give up and accept the people who took their land and actively block aid getting to them.
No one is giving the Israelies a free pass here. While Hamas clearly loves the PR that putting civilians in harms way gives them (which they absolutely do), the Israelies absolutely are taking advantage of 10 days of Hamas rocket attacks to advance their own goals, which is land acquisition. And that was never my original point. My point, if you scroll up, was that if you don’t want Israel to launch a military strike, maybe don’t shoot at them because they are going to 100% shoot back with a much, much bigger gun. Nobody, nobody is winning here. The whole situation completely sucks and it’s utterly tragic what’s happening to the civilians. I hope the Biden Administration holds Israel accountable- enough already.
Lol idiot
“After weeks of standing firm that being pro-Palestine is not equated with antisemitism, Ruffalo wavered back to a more moderate position.”It didn’t really result in him moderating his opinion. As far as his statements indicate, he’s still pro-Palestine and opposed to the actions Israel is taking, he’s just stating that his use of the word “genocide” was hyperbolic. And, I mean, that’s the right position. What Israel is doing is racist, violent, unjustified, and a brutal oppression of the rights of Palestinian people, but it’s not genocide and it’s possible to be critical of the state of Israel without equating its actions to genocide.
Indeed, what they’re doing is really just a little bit of light ethnic-cleansing. So no biggie.
If any element of my post suggested to you I thought what they’re doing is no biggie, you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. I stated quite clearly that what the Israeli government is doing is wrong on multiple levels, but it’s still not genocide.
It is genocide, flat out. They have pushed the palestinians into concentration camps and restricted all aspect of their lives and degraded their living conditions to the point where they are killing them indirectly through restricted actions, causing malnutrition, starvation, dying from lack of proper water sources. They are not directly pulling the trigger, but they are doing everything to end with eh same result.
It is genocide though.
Good.
What the fuck is this tone in this article? Like, it’s one thing to parse his public statements on this issue and judge whether or not you think he’s appropriately critical of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians (fucking weird for an entertainment website to decide that that’s their role, but ok!), but invoking a critique that the Avengers movies are inherently imperialistic and that he said something nice about Chris Pratt is just so bizarre. This website has been going downhill for a while but the turn toward weird, moralistic scorekeeping where all news about people in the entertainment industry is filtered through whether or not those people are good or bad according to the author’s weirdo moral compass (see yesterday’s “actors who were in Weinstein Company movies and are now losing out on paychecks because of the Weinstein Company’s bankruptcy fucking deserve it”) is so unhealthy. It’s just a third-rate Gawker impression.
I’m guessing that they feel the news can’t just be reported, there has to be editorializing in order to stand out and get clicks. Whereas the AV Club’s prior tactic was to make articles funny in an absurd way, now there seems to be a strong reliance on performing wokeness. (I hated that Weinstein article, too.) To be fair, as someone who used to write “funny” news pieces for a living, it’s a lot easier—and quicker—to get by with the moralizing than trying to be funny while also being respectful and accurately reporting the news.
(Even a serious topic such as this could’ve been made lighter by doing what an above poster did, which is to make a joke about Ruffalo being constantly stoned.)
IDK. It’s a sign of the times. Judgment must be passed, always!!
Yeah I don’t mind making fun of Mark Ruffalo, or making jokes about Israel’s treatment of Palestine that have some bite to them, I was just really taken aback by how quickly the article veered into incredibly harsh moralizing. Like listing as evidence that Ruffalo is complicit in the US war machine that he… said some nice things about Chris Pratt once. Not to dunk on college kids or Noam Chomsky (trust me, I’ve been the one getting dunked on in that situation), but it feels very much like talking to a college kid who just read Noam Chomsky for the first time.
“What the fuck is this tone…?”-The AV Club
It’s atrocious, is what it is. And it’s practically all they write in the news wire anymore. Just summary verdicts on people’s character based on their social media presence and one or two possibly misguided public statements about some hot-button political issue.
It’s almost like murdering hundreds of innocent people is a serious subject
“The MCU promotes imperialism” is maybe a legitimate topic of discussion but it rings a little hollow of the site to bring it up when they’ve run numerous articles praising the MCU and never made the critique before.
I agree, especially given the most recent Marvel production was specifically about the value of nuance and understanding, and the destructiveness of heavy handed military absolutism. It feels like Sam Wilson would have talked Mark Ruffalo down to this new position, which is considered and responsible.
As is increasingly common, I find myself agreeing with the sentiment of the article while finding the tone and framing adolescent and eye-roll-inducing. Yeah, I’m disappointed that Ruffalo walked back his earlier statement and yeah, on the face of it, it seems like a pretty cowardly act. I don’t know Ruffalo’s motivations and possible explanations range from the sinister (Disney throwing its weight around) to the benign (Ruffalo genuinely thought his word choice was doing more harm than good for the movement). But putting all that aside, what good is accomplished in painting one of the few unabashedly pro-Palestine Hollywood folks, even if they have sadly backslid a bit, as History’s Greatest Monster? There’s a real puritanical streak of “ha ha, I knew everyone aside from me was terrible all along! Couldn’t fool me, you imperialist lapdog!”
Said it before. I’ll say it again.Big “Incel wearing a ‘This is What a Feminist Looks Like’ shirt” energy from the AVC lately.
I have to agree at least somewhat, because the opinion issued in the Weinstein case was not about the Weinstein case. It was just a legal question, and it will apply to ANY company with back contracts that goes bankrupt and is bought, which happens all the time. These entertainment company bankruptcies often result in tricky questions, I remember Revolution Studios had a whole thing with two movies it was slated to release. Outside of bankruptcy Terry Gilliam always winds up in the middle of questions like this when some jerk who previously funded his movies wants to pull the movie and bury it. The moral aspect of retributive justice against Bradley Cooper for making Silver Linings Playbook certainly didn’t have anything to do with this case. After the case, I am now interested to see if a bunch of producers who now know they are going to get their back owed payments wiped out will band together to proactively put some production companies into bankruptcy and speed up the process of a sale to a new entity who will pay per their contracts.
Nah, the IDF isn’t doing genocide, they’re doing ethnic cleansing in support of apartheid. Clear and obvious difference, folks.
It’s not apartheid any more than it’s genocide. You’re just doing the same thing. Picking a word that we all know is BAD and applying it to a situation where it doesn’t apply but has some vague resonance, because who could defend apartheid?
No, I’m using the word “apartheid” because it fits the legal definition of apartheid as defined by the ICC, the International Criminal Court. No part of the Israeli occupation is legal by international law and they’ve been committing human rights violations for over fifty years. Just because the apartheid is a decades-old institution doesn’t mean it’s justified.
I’m actually going to do something that no one does online and admit I did not know that the ICC had made apartheid a crime with such a definition. I’m still not sure this really applies, but when I was arguing earlier I was going from a South African perspective and didn’t realize it was a term of art in a broader way
I’m not referring to anything in a broad way. What Israel is doing is illegal, immoral, and unethical. They are in breach of every international law that dictates such behavior. You admit you don’t know what you’re talking about, but continue to defend your admittedly ignorant position. If you’re a Zionist, just be a Zionist. There’s no intellectually honest way to defend Israeli occupation of Palestinian land other than to say you believe the Israeli people deserve it more. “You’re not allowed to say rape is a good thing, society should be a hierarchical race-based system, etc. and that’s for everyone’s benefit.” Israel has explicitly said they want the occupied land to be exclusively for Jewish Israeli use. They have enacted legislation to suppose that endeavor, and every few years sweep an area with the IDF to build more illegal settlements. This is as clear an example of social hierarchy based on race, ethnicity, and religion as you’re going to see. But it’s cool, right? Because reasons you haven’t and cannot articulate beyond “Israel good, Palestinians bad.”https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
Oh I’m not a Zionist but I absolutely believe the Israeli people deserve the land more. They demonstrably do – they fought for it over and over again and won. That’s how the world has always worked until, what, maybe post-WWII? So of course the Israelis deserve it. How could they not?But that doesn’t mean that everything Israeli does is right. Any more than someone who supports the Palestinian cause should feel all their actions are just. I think they’ve overreacted in the last month to actions from the Palestinians that they arguably provoked. Have you been to Israel or Palestine btw? I doubt it. But yeah, it’s not a hierarchical race-based system. Arabs in Israel are 1/5 of the population and they have full voting rights. Which is more than most other countries in the region offer, of course. So things are already a little complicated here for apartheid. Then of course Palestine is different. It’s in this weird shadow world where it’s kind of a country but kind of not. And does Israel take advantage of this with the settler situation? Absolutely. Do the hard line right winger Israelis piss me off? Totally. But I remain unsure what Israel should do with an enemy quasi-state which hasn’t really wavered in its desire to control the entire Levant. How do you negotiate with someone who wishes for your destruction?
Someone tell the Native Americans they deserved to have their land and homes robbed because they didn’t fight hard enough for them.
Well, not quite. I am categorically NOT saying that all treatment meted out by the winner is justified. I am saying that the winner deserves the land, because that’s how it works. Why were the Sioux the masters of the plains? Because they proved superior to the other tribes. Why did the Aztec rule Mesoamerica before Cortes? They were a particularly brutal people who dominated the region. Throughout the entirety of history, different groups of people come into conflict over land. That is utterly normal. The winner should treat the loser with dignity and humanity, so of course you can criticize the treatment of Palestine or the Native Americans. But to say that Israel doesn’t deserve the land? Of course they do. They have fought for it over and over again.
This is the most disgusting thing I’ve read today.You should crawl into a hole and never come out.
You should go read the plot description for The Human Centipede 2 to read something TRULY disgusting :D.
It says so much about you that you think a fictional movie is more disgusting than real people being dispossessed, having their lives destroyed and being murdered
I dunno man have you read it?
Please continue to be glib about human suffering
So if I come to your house and beat the shit out of you, I get to live there and make you leave as long as I “treat you with dignity and humanity” afterward, right? Go be a fascism apologist someplace else.
Well no, because the societally accepted method of private land acquisition is purchase, and private land is in abundance so there is plenty to purchase. So that analogy doesn’t hold – if you want a house, you are expected to buy it. But all the world’s land is, non-ecumene, or owned and not for sale. Neither Israel nor Palestine can simply go buy a country somewhere. So that’s not a useful comparison.
Except it is since the Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah literally bought the homes they’re being evicted from
Fuck off, chud. “Might makes right” doesn’t make murder ok. You should be embarrassed to have typed up that post and I hope you’re not feeding that poison to your students.
Well let’s hope I certainly teach my students better reading comprehension, right?
I have already established that might doesn’t make right – the fact that a country deserves the land does not justify poor treatment of inhabitants within. So of course I don’t think it makes murder OK – in fact, I specifically said otherwise.What’s so strange to me is that you’re arguing a fact not an opinion. The country that wins the conflict ends up with the land. Why is the POC in Mainland China and the ROC in Taiwan? Why does South Korea still exist as a sovereign state not part of North Korea? Why isn’t Biafra a country, or Katanga? How did Vietnam emerge as a country? Why is Israel in control and not Palestine? Do you not understand this?
It’s wild to me that you, a Jewish person, are arguing that people who can’t defend themselves militarily deserve to be conquered. Your position is intellectually indefensible and morally repugnant. The hypocrisy on display in your posts is offensive. You have a child’s understanding of geopolitical reality if you truly think Palestinians present an existential threat to Israel. If you can find and cite any international law ruling that condones Israeli occupation, I’ll eat my fucking hat.
Well I’m certainly not being hypocritical because I have been making the same arguments throughout.I think we’re having a bit of a disconnect because of what I call a “should vs. is” argument. You’re arguing more how things should be, and I’m arguing more how they are. You have done nothing to address my points about this being the way the world works. There are some countries between which borders emerged reasonably organically (“subsequent boundaries”) and some between which borders are peacefully determined by mountain ranges or rivers (natural boundaries) and a whole lot of lines on a map determined by conflict. France, China, Vietnam, Peru, Israel, The United States, Indonesia, Namibia, etc. etcDo you literally not understand this? If you won the land, it’s your land. That is how the world works. That is why Arizona is not part of Mexico and Alsace is not part of Germany. There is no other way that humans adjudicate who possesses what land which supersedes that one. So therefore, it is axiomatic that Israel deserves the land because Israel controls the land. But that does not justify the treatment of the people within anymore than the USA’s legitimate claim to America justifies our treatment of the Native Americans or Australia’s treatment of the Aborigines.
Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land is not legitimate. It is illegal. Where’s your citation of international law, Quisling?
A Quisling is a turncoat, a traitor and collaborator (named for the Norwegian leader). So since I’m Jewish it would only make sense to call me that if I were advocating for Israel to surrender all its land to Palestine because then I would be betraying my people like Vidkun.Anyhoo, I’m going to end things here because you can’t or won’t address my points about “this is the way the world works.”
Where’s your proof of the legitimacy of Israeli occupation, fash?
Do you really think the conflicts don’t involve death?? Do you really think that winning a physical conflict (and conflicts over land are almost always physical) and then saying that’s the reason the winner deserves the land isn’t just a longer way to say “might makes right?” Wow, there is definitely a difference between book smart and smart smart.
Of course conflicts involve death. But you are aware that this is how the world works, right? Biafra isn’t a country because they lost the war. They were probably more morally righteous than the Nigerian government. But Nigeria won and so there’s no Biafra. This has happened 1000 times over 1000 years.
So, wait, if you kill more of the people on the land than they kill of you, then you deserve the land? I mean, I get that’s how we did things, but I’m pretty sure most of us have come to the conclusion that it was wrong (which is why there are reparations—although not enough—being made to Native American tribes as we speak.) First thing to learn is that just because it’s always been done a certain way doesn’t make that way right.
The treatment of the Native Americans within the United States was absolutely wrong. But the idea that it was wrong for America to take this land? Why? God didn’t plant the Native Americans there. They followed the same process. The Sioux were the masters of the plains because the dominated the other tribes. The Aztecs were just like the Spanish – a predatory civilization that brutally subjugated the people who were living there before. So how do you decide whose land it is? Take Mexico – do you just pick a year and say these people deserve it? The Maya? The Nahua? The Aztecs? The Spanish? The French? The Mexicans? What year is the TRUE year of deserving land ownership. It can’t be done, which is part of why it isn’t done.And so Israel/Palestine – who does it belong to? The Hebrews? The Romans? The Arabs? The Ottomans? The British? The Israelis? The Palestinians? Again, unless you’re arbitrarily picking a year, there’s no way to decide. So yeah, who has fought for it is the ultimate answer. It’s why the POC controls Mainland China and the ROC controls Taiwan. The Communists won the Civil War, so there it is
“Well that just sounds like genocide with extra steps.”
200 people dead out of a population of 2 million in Gaza. Israel sucks at genocide.
Also, the Palestinian population has increased something like 400% under Israeli control and has increased in virtually every metric of standard of living. You’d think a people whose entire worldwide population was reduced by a third in 5 years would be better at this if they were actually trying.
It’s almost like Israel has been murdering Palestinians for decades
This was a fine journalistic article giving the facts of his original statement, his change, and the background facts on the ground. UNTIL the last paragraph, where suddenly the AV Club became a political magazine and Gabrielle Sanchez decided she was not in fact a journalist. Pick a side, Gabrielle – either be a reporter or be an activist. You can’t be both in the same article.
“either be a reporter or be an activist. You can’t be both in the same article.”Have you read a news article or watched televised news any time recently?
Guy in mouse ears knocks on the door and lays out just how many people have played “his” character over the course of the past 18 years.
“The Hulk actor’s…”Mark Ruffalo starring in a Hulk movie I’m not aware of? As far as I know, he’s only played Hulk/Banner as a supporting character in various Avengers and related MCU movies, and not in a standalone Hulk movie that would necessitate the italicization of the name. Now, Eric Bana, he’s a Hulk actor.
You’re why they hate us.
I know!
Could you at least include Mark’s original statement in the article?
Better keep quiet if your opinion does not agree with the SJW woke crowd or you could find yourself out of a job. Thank god I am rich and retire and don’t give a fuck. #DefundIsreal
To paraphrase an asshole, “There are very bad people on both sides.”
Fuck Israel (the government) and the US. All of this is because of Bible bullshit. If Israel wasn’t in the Bible and promised to be the Chosen People then we wouldn’t give two fucks about them and they wouldn’t be getting billions of dollars from us every year since I can remember. I’m sick of all this religious bullshit.
“And Disney, which makes those Marvel movies, is not known for its laissez faire attitude toward the social media presence of actors involved in any associated projects. It’s impossible to say if they have anything to do with the Ruffalo’s new tune, but some fans are definitely giving the company the side eye.”Much like my fairly early decision to not hop on the Harry Potter and Fast and Furious bandwagons, I’m feeling pretty ok not having spent a whole lot of time/money in the Disney/Marvel universe today.
Really bizarre to me how I copied and pasted directly from the article to the comment section and it’s like I stuck it in the machine from “The Fly” first. Alas, too late to edit so it stays on my permanent record.
the jews are wrong here. flat out. they have a nazi attitude for everything. they have become extremist themselves. 12 jews killed means they have free reign to kill as many Palistianians as possible?? no, absolutely not. fuck your holy land and the horse it rode in on.
Gabrielle Sanchez, this article is pure antisemitism and reveals how completely ignorant you are of the situation.Israel is not an imperialist nation — it is the ancestral homeland to an indigenous minority people — something you on the radical left respect for everyone but the Jews. Shame on you.
Pretty much every time, Hamas inflates the numbers of women and children instead of militants killed (while intentionally trying to kill children, not to mention all Jews on the planet) and then a few months later everyone (including pro-palestine organizations) quietly readjusts their number to the IDF number which was accurate to begin with. This article, along with calling people shooting at rockets at a civilian population with the intent to kill as many as possible “civilians” is why Hamas keeps fighting. Keep helping the Nazis, tho.
Citation pls
marc ruffalo might be the dumbest actor in hollywood and that really is saying something.
On the other side, the recent conflict left 10 Israelis dead.
Regardless of your other criticism and varying degrees of accurate information about the conflict, maybe you should read back to yourself the line you just wrote about how dismissive you were about civilians being killed.
But they’re Jews. Doesn’t matter to the performative woke.
A good chunk of my family is Jewish, and I can’t seem to convince them that being “given Israel” wasn’t the one and only time we were seen as a minority or worth being defended by non-Jews and therefore impervious to criticism.
Mr. Ruffalo’s statement was inelegant. Hold my beer.“Israeli/Palestinian peace is impossible when you’ve got one side trying to act in what they feel is self-defense, and the other side that just won’t listen to reason.”[ducks quickly and quietly out of room]
I don’t care what his position is on this…just don’t make him angry…
God forbid somebody say, “I’m not really qualified to comment on this” and stay quiet.
Mark Ruffalo is ALL about social justice, until..
honestly this is the best AV club newswire post since oneal left
just don’t say anything – you can’t win no matter what, and what Mark Ruffalo thinks on this matter isn’t going to change anything regardless.
And Disney, which makes those Marvel movies, is not known for its laissez faire attitude toward the social media presence of actors involved in any associated projects. It’s impossible to say if they have anything to do with the Ruffalo’s new tune, but some fans are definitely giving the company the side eye.
Hulk (and therefore Ruffalo) aren’t slated to be in anything in the next little while so I suspect they were just gonna let this blow over and not say anything about it. I think Ruffalo’s opinions are his own, and those opinions are “Oh god oh god stop yelling at me I take it back okay?”
Pretty sure he’s supposed to be showing up in She-hulk
By every reasonable definition it is genocide, and this is cowardice.
I mean, sure it’s ethnic cleansing, but not *genocide* ethnic cleansing, right? That’d be too much.
Is it not yet acceptable to criticize Israel yet?
After weeks of standing firm that being pro-Palestine is not equated
with antisemitism, Ruffalo wavered back to a more moderate position. In
his tweet he also said his use of the word “genocide” is “not accurate,” and “is being used to justify antisemitism here & abroad.”Given that most anti-semites are far right racists who don’t care about Palestinians, I question this assertion.
Most anti-semites are lefties, actually.
I’m not going to quibble about whether there are numerically more antisemites on the far right, but the far left and the “woke” crowd has, at the very least, a huge blind spot when it comes to antisemitism. People who earnestly believe that people of color should be believed when they claim racism turn around and say “well, actually,” every time a Jewish person identifies antisemitism.
Being on the left doesn’t make someone immune from anti-semitism, but people on the left have frequently been accused of anti-semitism by bad faith actors for criticizing Israel. Allegations of anti-semitism shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, but if someone is being accused anti-semitism just for supporting BDS or calling Israel an apartheid state then the accusation doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously.
That’s not the point. If one’s reaction to being accused of antisemitism is to say “nuh uh,” instead of reflecting on why people might think what they said is antisemitic, then they’re missing the point.
If the accusation lacks substance, then “nuh uh” is an entirely fair reaction.
“We can imagine it’s hard to stand firm against imperialism while performing in a film franchise that propagandizes it”
LOL. Take some pills. Or stop taking them. One or the other.
“On the other side, the recent conflict left 10 Israelis dead.”During the recent violence, more than 4,000 explosive rockets were fired at Israeli civilians by Hamas with the intent to murder them. Hamas’s founding charter in the 1980s called for the destruction of Israel (no two-state solution for them) and for death to the Jews (not just Israeli Jews, but all Jews around the world.)
Thankfully, just as the current Israeli leadership doesn’t represent the majority of its citizens (much like in the USA, Israel’s leader can win with less than a majority, and in Netanyahu’s case, it’s only a third of voters), Hamas doesn’t represent the majority of Palestinians.
One can argue that how Israeli responds to them is vile, heavy-handed, or that it involves war crimes, but your article didn’t make any attempt at all to show that Hamas has done anything wrong at all.
Instead you give a glib count of dead Israeli civilians, as if because the number wasn’t as high as in Gaza, the killing of those civilians doesn’t matter. Twelve civilians were actually killed, not ten. Two of the dead were children, and five were not Jewish-Israelis (so not Hamas’s target.) Those five were two Arab-Israelis, two Thai citizens, and one an Indian citizen. Also when one of Hamas’s own rockets went astray after being launched from a Gazan civilian center, it killed eight civilians in Gaza (two of the 67 children in Gaza known to have been killed are included among that number.) And you made no mention either that millions of Israelis, both Jewish and non-Jewish (20% of Israeli citizens are Arab), spent much of the last few weeks running to bomb shelters, as again, thousands of rockets had been launched at them to try to murder them. Shooting rockets at civilian population centers is usually considered a war crime. There are no heroes in what just happened.
The Israeli state has been acting like a total turd over Palestine and the Palestinians for years. The simple solution to this is to turn the entire Israeli nation into a pariah state until they elect politicians who will stop behaving like toddlers. Don’t buy their stuff, don’t invite them to international events of any type, just refuse to deal with them in any arena. Remember also that Israel was a staunch supporter of the apartheid regime in South Africa and so prolonged the existence of that revolting system. And that’s before you start looking into the dark murmuring of their research into biological weapons that work only on certain ethnicities.
https://www.wired.com/1998/11/israels-ethnic-weapon/Israel is a country where fully-armoured and armed soldiers shoot children for throwing stones; where people are routinely delayed at checkpoints on their way for medical treatment, making their problems worse and often leading to entirely avoidable deaths (they specialise in detaining women in labour, btw); and where people’s homes are property are routinely stolen and distributed to ‘friends’ of the state.Israel is a fucking disgrace as a nation. Israelis should be ashamed that their young country has mired itself so deeply in the shit.
In the same way, “Hamas = terrorists” also does not = “Whatever Israel does is fine.”
wow and here I thought at least 1 site I love won’t go through with publishing absolute uninformed propagenda.
without getting into the deep statistics regarding the amounts of money being moved and donated to Gaza that is being taken by Hamas, the literall terrorist organization and not a palestinian military force, to create missiles and firearms instead of caring for their citizens, the fact that a Hamas missile is the one that knocked dowm the electricity coming into Gaza FROM Israel, and that the we are the only country in the world to alert citizens before a strike against terrorist targets (that are usually hiding in civillian buildings because Hamas does not care for the lives of the palestinians)
the only reason Israel had not had major lives lost is because we had to develop defences for the CONSTANT THREATS OF ATTACKS FROM OUR SURROUNDING COUNTRIES
don’t fucking say that oh your fight for survival would be justified if more Israelis would have died.
Lol
“being pro-Palestine is not equated with antisemitism”Nah, it’s just equated with being pro-terrorism. They’re a bunch of pathetic shitheads who lost their land in a war they started, and since they’ll never get it back by legitimate means they commit war crimes to try and extort it back. Or they make up claims about “apartheid” and “genocide” and the usual gang of useful idiots here and abroad believes them.
Wasn’t this posted yesterday? Why bump it back to the top of newswire? Not enough clicks or some bullshit? Is Gizmodo not profiting enough from the Israeli/Palestine conflict?
Just a little light reading, for people who are in denial about what they are supporting with Hamas (or are in denial that the Gazans are supporting and shielding Hamas, and where the bogus Gaza civilian casualty numbers actually come from): https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-co-founder-to-uk-tv-israel-has-no-right-to-exist/
“On the other side, the recent conflict left 10 Israelis dead.”
FFS.