Rings Of Power showrunner J.D. Payne addresses “patently evil” racist backlash
"It’s very hard for us to understand," says Rings Of Power co-creator J.D. Payne of some of the show's virulently racist criticism. "What are they protecting?"
Aux News Payne
In any vibrant fandom, some hearty debate is a sign of good health; when an entire fantasy realm is in question, who would expect any truly universal opinions? But some of the debates surrounding Prime Video’s The Rings Of Power have been anything but nuanced—something co-showrunner J.D. Payne finds frustrating.
In a new interview with The Hollywood Reporter, Payne addresses some of the virulently racist backlash the series has faced since its release. When the series first dropped, Amazon suspended reviews for 72 hours in an attempt to evade review bombers. Amazon has since asserted that there was a coordinated attack against the show due to its diverse cast and strong female lead.
Speaking with THR, Payne makes it clear what a distressing misinterpretation of the text he thinks the inclusive casting criticism is. In fact (on the contrary to a certain space-happy billionaire’s belief), Payne feels that Tolkien’s original tomes are all about finding commonality across diverse communities.
“The spirit of Tolkien is about disparate peoples who don’t trust one another and look different from one another finding common ground in friendship and accomplishing big things,” Payne says. “That’s the spirit we’ve tried to inculcate into every single comma and period in the show. That this aspiration would be offensive to people and enrage them … it’s very hard for us to understand. What are they protecting? I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good.”
Payne continues on to cite a specific moment in the series’ yet-to-air seventh episode he finds especially relevant to the inter-fandom controversies. What resonates with Payne is one of Galadriel’s lines: “Every war is fought from without and within.”
“Even if you’re fighting for something you think is good, if you do something worse in that fight, then you become evil,” Payne says. “I don’t see how people who are saying these things think that they’re fighting for good. It’s patently evil.”
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Not that racist, sexist jerkwads are ever easy to understand, but the backlash to this show… it really is the epitome of “Let us know you’re a sexless idiot without telling us you’re a sexless idiot”. The backlash makes zero sense to me. You really think the dude who dropped hallucinogens and created different languages and another world would have an imaginatiom so small as to mever allow a person of color *shock awe gasp* to fill any particular role? Tolkien wrote like a white guy from a white guy’s perspective at a time when white people were mostly the only people he emcountered. He’s thoroughly a product of his time, but for the weak-knees famboys to try and shout that they know the mind of a drugged out dead man better than his estate, production team, or the company that paid billions of dollars for the rights to the story…….. hooboy. It only serves to underscore just how fragile the objectors are. How limited they are in scope of imagination. OMg tHe dArK peoPle aRe the MoST InterESting ChaRacteRs???? THEY’RE TRYING TO REPLACE US!!Buncha freeze-dries bullshit Ttemots at “masculinity”.
Good point, but where did “drugged out deadman” and “dude who dropped hallucinogens” come from? I can’t say I’ve ever read that about Tolkien before.
People don’t just think, “what if before the sun there were just two giant lamps in the sky” without a healthy dose of the good stuff.
The lamps were set on pillars.
Tolkien had an abundance of good stuff naturally; he never needed drugs and was fully 70 years old before hallucinogens became popular.
I’m only kidding. I’ve read the books, but barely know any of the lore, I just think two massive lanterns providing light for the world is funny and weird.
Y’all seen those pics of Juniorr with his pipe? PCP.
This bit is really funny, dude.
I’m proud of “Juniorr”
Yeah, none of that is remotely true. I’m curious why this commenter was so very sure about this specious biography. It’s reductive and sad to imagine that his creations were the results of drug use rather than his career as a linguist, interest in (and extensive translation work on) mythology and ancient literature, archaeology, some turn-of-the-century genre writers he admired, and his own experience of the clash between the rural countryside and urbanization.
At a guess I think they’ve confused Tolkien with Aldous Huxley.
Fair. I will say that I doubt many of the racist, sexist ragey manbabies who thrive on how hateful the interwebs are care one whit for Tolkein or Rings of Power. It’s about fueling hate and then profiting from that hate. Watch the trailer for Rings of Power, and your youtube front page will suddenly feature racist & misogynist rants against Rings of Power as well as other genre properties. One study showed that four individuals were making millions of dollars off racist Meghan Markle content and produced 90% of that content on youtube. Hate is profitable on social media. There are probably some socially awkward gatekeepers who don’t like that Rings of Power doesn’t perfectly align with their head fanfiction, but there we are. They are likely the minority. But Amazon and Disney and most other corporations know that you need to cast a wide net to support a billion-dollar franchise. That means a diverse cast.
I think you’re spot on about the internet hate machine being to blame for this. Negativity generates clicks, clicks generate money, and before you know it so many people are pouring their time and energy into performative outrage that is insanely out of proportion. There are whole channels who are now dedicated to ripping the show to shreds and for what?The claim that it’s legitimate criticism is absolutely laughable when it’s the same handful of generic arguments they keep repeating from each other because none of these people ever had an original thought. More often than not it also goes hand in hand with an abysmal level of simple reading comprehension and media literacy. There’s a lot of huffing and puffing about Tolkien’s holy scriptures but 99% of these people have never cracked open one of his books let alone understood its themes.And further there are sooo many people blindly following and participating in this nonsense all to bolster their egos and proudly proclaim that… they don’t like a TV show. Cool.
They are rage-y about a tv show that is clearly designed for older children and teenagers first, with stuff for adults woven in for good measure. A big part of this is that white men don’t understand that the comic books, movies and shows they loved as children were made for children. They are now adults and thus cannot consume them with the same uncritical joy. Plus, racism and sexism. It’s toxic.
You can lay a lot of things at the door of white men, but “unable to tell the difference between children’s entertainment and adult entertainment” is what you’re going with?
Yes. Because I’ve noticed a lot of them feel ownership over media that is clearly made for children or, at best, adults who think like them.
The implication being any non-white would uncritically consume this and not have any actual valid criticisms of their own?Of course I don’t condone the people actually being destructive/malicious, but a loud toxic minority hogging the spotlight* does not a critical consensus make.
The aforementioned Meghan Markle study, indicated that four English women had multiple twitter and reddit accounts pretending to know negative gossip about her. Then, they would use these accounts and as “anonymous sources,” along with the famously toxic British tabloids and their phony experts, to create youtube videos about her. The four women were racking up millions in revenue, which is a difficult feat on youtube. I expect that hate videos about Rings of Power, House of Dragons, The Last Jedi, Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk…you name it, use the same trickery. Worse, the GOP used the same tactics to undermine democracy. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/bot-sentinel-meghan-markle-prince-harry-twitter
Negativity, in general, is something we tend to apply a sense of “that’s correct” to, regardless of it’s truth. Think of how many “intelligent” people you know who seem to always hate things. I remember once reading about a study where they showed this effect, by testing people after watching a movie. They then had them read and rate two different critiques of the film, a “positive” review and a “negative” review, then asked them which review and writer they felt was smarter and the better critique. Most people stated that they felt the negative review was better, that it was by a smarter writer, etc. Thing is though, the negative review was intentionally filled with errors regarding the movie they watched, full of points that were incorrect and had facts wrong. The positive one did not have those errors at all. Yet, that’s the one most people thought was wrong.
That tracks with my experience in fandom spaces. I like a well done critical analysis as much as the next person but you have to be really careful not to be sucked into a vortex of negativity even with the best intentions.I’ve found it’s not healthy to approach media with extreme negative bias because you only end up looking for reasons that justify your already negative opinion. And when I see some dude (and usually it’s dudes, let’s be real) yell and rage about a show like RoP it’s usually some garbage argument along the lines of it being too “woke” and other hyperbolic nonsense that only demonstrate they have no clue about storytelling 101.
Definitely agree. I always wonder why so many fanspaces seem to be so hateful and negative towards the thing they supposedly love. Fandom in general has become such a shitty environment over the last 2 decades in particular. Reminds me of when punk rock was full of people mad at “sell outs” when in reality it was just that other people started to also like the music you were into, too.
People who get upset that things don’t match what they imagined in their heads or whatever are fuckwits though.This was one of the worst bad-faith attacks on the Star Wars prequels – that it didn’t match/wasn’t as a good as what they had imagined or hoped for based on stuff they had come up with. Some on this very site have argued this in the 15 or so years I’ve been on here.Specific points they were getting upset about included:* The Clones Wars. I remember one commenter on here saying they were underwhelmed by the Clones Wars as depicted in the films/TV shows because they had grown up imagining armies of cloned Jedi fighting the real ones.* The jedi themselves weren’t as cool as they thought – They imagined them to be like samurai warriors rather than the religious order they were depicted as in the films. This even went so far as to have a shot at the costuming, arguing they shouldn’t have all been wearing robes.There is a lot to criticism the prequels for fairly (and there are laundry lists of their failings), but not matching your headcanon or bullshit ideas isn’t one of them, given this is something they never set out to do in the first place.
I will also point out that the very same type of rage nerds also ridicule girls for writing fanfiction and, one time, had a collective meltdown when a critic called Game of Thrones, a show with copious sex and characters coming back from the dead, a soap opera. To paraphrase Shatner, they need to get a life.
The fans did not invent the idea of cloned Jedi fighting real Jedi. That idea came from Timothy Zahn’s Thrawn trilogy, which was sanctioned by George Lucas and declared canon by LucasArts, until the prequels said, “Naah, never mind.”
I’m not and was never upset that the stuff in the prequels didn’t match what I’d spent the previous 20 years imagining. I was upset that pretty much everything in the prequels was shitty.* The Clones Wars. I remember one commenter on here saying they were underwhelmed by the Clones Wars as depicted in the films/TV shows because they had grown up imagining armies of cloned Jedi fighting the real ones.The Clone Wars were mentioned exactly one time in the OT. First, the name implies that there was more than one war, so right off the bat it felt off. I mean, yeah, obviously most people imagined something different from what we got, but what we actually got was the absolute stupidest possible thing that it could have been, kicked off with one of the dumbest lines in the entire trilogy (which is famous for its horrible dialogue): “Begun, the Clone Wars have”. You can’t honestly defend that.* The jedi themselves weren’t as cool as they thought – They imagined them to be like samurai warriors rather than the religious order they were depicted as in the films. This even went so far as to have a shot at the costuming, arguing they shouldn’t have all been wearing robes.They shouldn’t have been wearing those robes. By putting them in the robes Obi-Wan wore on Tatooine in the original movie, Lucas basically said that Obi-Wan, in hiding, wore his god damned Jedi uniform the whole time he was in hiding. Again, Lucas did the stupidest possible thing at every turn.
The robes being the jedi uniform wasn’t an invention of the prequels though – it originates with the original trilogy. Yoda essentially wore the same thing, though smaller and obviously in much worse condition, as did Anakin’s force ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi.
I mean, hate did launch Trump into the white house and sustained it long enough to compel a bunch of weekend warriors to storm the capital building on election day so there’s that.
“Hate is profitable on social media.”You’d certainly know. “But Amazon and Disney and most other corporations know that you need to cast a wide net to support a billion-dollar franchise. That means a diverse cast.”Which is why Peter Jacksons films flopped so hard… Oh…Wait
LOL, that’s not the reason that Amazon and Disney have diverse stuff. If that were true, then early Marvel and LOTR movies wouldn’t have been as successful as they are, because most people of all races don’t care that much about diversity when it comes to really good stories and characters.They only do it because they know that if they include women and POCs and queer people, the halfwits on Twitter and similar sites will defend it no matter how bad it is. The halfwits are so determined to show how not racist/sexist/homophobic they are that they will blindly, mindlessly praise anything with a hint of diversity, even if it’s crap. The corporations KNOW that you will accept crap – and even better, defend it by attacking all critics – if it’s put in the right package, and you keep proving them right.Y’all are being manipulated, and you aren’t smart enough to realize it. And people aren’t mad that it doesn’t perfectly align with their head canons, like anime fans who get upset that their favorite male characters turn out to be straight. They’re mad because they have literally inverted the morality of Tolkien’s works and raped the backstory of stuff like Mithril, hobbits, Gandalf, Galadriel, etc. But go on, keep insisting it’s all just racism and sexism. You care more about that than about what they’ve done to a man’s great and timeless work.
Europe always had POC and evidence of them was intentionally and systematically removed from the historical record in the 19th century by racist historians in Europe and the U.S.
Before you play the “I am not a racist, but this is supposed to be mythical Europe” card, remember that in no version but the racist fantasy of Europe has the continent ever been all white.
https://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/
I feel like I should post the Dennis Hopper / Christopher Walken history lesson scene from True Romance here, but will refrain.
Also, European or other real history simply doesn’t apply. Middle Earth is a created world. Life didn’t evolve over millions of years. Elves and humans “awoke” fully formed in the First Age. Even after thousands of years that’s not enough time for our world’s ethnic differentiation. Any skin and hair colors were there from the start. So there may as well be black and brown Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, and all nations of Men unless you think “white” is the only normal option and anything else must be justified.
“So there may as well be black and brown Hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, and all nations of Men unless you think “white” is the only normal option and anything else must be justified.”Which we all know is what they actually do think, which is why their wails of “I’m not racist, I just don’t think there would be non-white elves” are always so laughable.
Try learning something about Tolkien before you make a fool of yourself. Middle Earth, in Tolkien’s conception, IS Earth. Sub-Saharan Africans could not get to NW Middle Earth without being brought up as slaves. And it is certainly not true that Europe “always” had a distinct population of Sub-Saharan Africans. If, by some phenomenally improbable miracle, a tiny distinct population of Sub-Saharan got to NW Europe at some remotely prehistoric point, somehow not being completely absorbed along the way in the Mediterranean, it would have been rapidly absorbed into the overall population. What you say is ridiculous on both points.
But why would people with more melanin be put in the part of the world with little sunlight? It doesn’t make any sense.
All very interesting, but even if none of what you say were true, these people would still be racist pieces of shit, and “patently evil”.
Racist gatekeeping nerds are the most fragile fucking losers on Earth.
Cosigned.
They’re just as bad as the misogynistic gatekeeping nerds.
they tend to be both.
Go back to Jalopnik, you mouth-breathing grease monkey. This site is for pop culture dorks only.
Venn diagram, circle, etc.
Tru dat
The venn diagram of those two is just a circle
There are no blacks in Tolkien’s work, just as there are no whites in Wakanda. What the fan wants is for the original material to be respected.
There aren’t any Americans, or Englishmen there either. How come that doesn’t bother you, fan who really respects the source material?I’m sure you made many vocal complaints about the actors in Jackson’s films being too young for the characters they played.This bullshit fools no one, you fragile dick.
Seriously, what kind of “there were no forks in Medieval Times, therefore there ARE no forks in Medieval Times” bullshit is this?
This is past that into the “chasing black patrons out of Medieval Times in the name of ‘historical accuracy’” territory.
So they can adapt the stories, the characters, the languages, the music, the locations, etc… but melanin means the original material isn’t being respected.
Riiiiiiiight.
We’re going to have Tom Bombadil…played by Will Smith.
Groan, please no. Tom Bombadil needs to be able to sing.
Are you kidding?
We’ll have “Valar Of The World Just Don’t Understand”, “I Think I Can Beat Old Man Willow”!
Joke about Lady Goldberry’s hair at your own risk then.
This is going to sound crazy, but absolutely yes. Tom Bombadil’s Me Song has the cadence of Will Smith’s (ft. Dru Hill and Kool Moe Dee) “Wild Wild West”. Don’t believe me? Here’s some source material.Tom Bom, Jolly Tom, Tom Badidill-oHey do! Merry do! Ring a long dill-0None of this, pipe weed song and grubbin thisTertiary character, look it’s like I told ya
Legolas rail grinds Helm Deep on a shield before kickflipping it into an orc’s chest to yoink Gimli out a puddle and no one bat’s an eye. But a black elf shows up and everyone loses their minds!
It’s fucking make-believe, numb-nuts. People like you are oblivious to worshiping “source material” because it is purely white, your lame-ass attempt at a distraction by playing Really Bad Analogy notwithstanding.
lol fuck just admit you’re racist dude
I think the Southrons were described as black. But I think some folks claimed that was racist as “the only black characters were allies of the bad guy”.
Racist gatekeepers are the most fragile fucking losers on Earth.
FTFY.
If you’re a racist gatekeeper then you’re not part of my or any nerdom.
See also: right wing voters.
Hello. I’ll try to get right to the point. I’m a black guy who has been a Lord of the Rings fan ever since the original trilogy back in early 2000s. Race swapping elves and dwarves was a terrible idea for the franchise at large. Making characters look noting like Tolkien originally envisioned isn’t an attack on other races. Tolkien is spinning in his grave right now, having his vision twisted in such a way. Not only that, the writing and overall structure of the show is a mess. You can’t call people racist or bad for simply making credible critics of this show. That’s insane.
As much as I’d like to believe the convenient biography you’re sharing in your single post with this new account, I’m calling bullshit. Especially given that you advanced absolutely zero novel arguments besides your bogus claim to authority. Like everyone else who tries to pretend their objection to this show has anything to do with anything other than diverse casting (and focusing on a female character), you just say the “writing” is bad without citing any examples, because you know as well as anyone else that you’re full of shit.Why would the antiracist liberal who wrote a book about how different races overcome their differences to unite against evil be spinning in his grave because of the skin color of actors playing characters he didn’t even create?Nonwhite nerds who have been fans of the series since decades before those films came out and who have a better understanding of Tolkien, his intent, and his beliefs know that this is nonsense. Tolkien likely would have made far more objections to the adaptations of his novels than this, and likely would have focused on things like seasonal changes, lapsed time, and character ages, something the adaptations very much change up but which never provokes the ire of totally not-racist “purists.”
Yeah, “Rashawn” is full of shit. Just another non-clever white guy troll. Too dumb to realize his shit fools no one.
“I’m a black person and I don’t think (explicitly racist thing) is racist because (vague nonsense deflection that in no way calls upon the fake autobiography)” as the first and only post from a commenter is a hilariously common and transparent thing.
I find it odd that you think there were no objections to the changes that Jackson made to the lore in his trilogy. I remember many.
I remember people discussing changes, of which, yeah, there were many.Nothing that provoked this kind of response, abuse, and review bombing.The reaction of racist loser “fans” to hiring nonwhite people has been far, far more intense than the sum of reactions of all fans to all other changes.
It’s a very different social media landscape than it was when Jackson’s films were being released. The only negative reactions I have seen to the casting of non-white actors in Rings of Power is that it seems to have been done with no rhyme or reason. Two black Harfoots. One Harfoot that is perhaps East Asian? One black elf. One or two black dwarves. Everyone else appears to be white. And then a very diverse Númenor.Contrast with the casting of black actors to portray House Valaryon in House of the Dragon. Valyrians were described as having silver hair, purple eyes and pale skin, but the showrunners went with black actors in a very deliberate and considered way. They didn’t just throw in one or two for diversity’s sake and then cast all the rest with white actors. Hence far more minimal negative reaction to House of the Dragon’s casting, than to the casting of Rings of Power. That undercuts your racism hypothesis, does it not?
“For diversity’s sake.”Nope, nothing undercut here, son.
Their own words made that very clear, from the producers, to the show runners, to the actors, to their “super fans” promo videos. If you think that wasn’t a factor at all, I think you’re wrong. But if you wish to persist in rejecting that particular motive, then how do you explain House of the Dragon’s casting choices inspiring such a different reaction?
I mean, if you want to call one side “for diversity’s sake,” to be fair we should call the other take “to perpetuate white supremacy.”I don’t know what your personal deal is, but you are using the language of bigots to suggest that discrimination is natural and right and not actively discriminating is being extra as some kind of virtue signaling.Why is it so important to you and your cohort that race be a critical casting consideration for characters for whom the actor’s race isn’t central to their stories? Why does that create an unbridgeable suspension of disbelief in a show about monsters and magic rings and sunless planets with really bright trees?How is this victimizing you?
Fiction requires a suspension of disbelief, and casting choices that make sense aid in suspension of disbelief. Tolkien deliberately depicted his fictional world’s various peoples with distinct characteristics (such as Harfoots being browner of skin) that differentiated them from each other because he wanted that bit of realism. Rings of Power’s casting choices break it.It’s the same problem with The Wheel of Time. That little backwater village at the start looked like the United Nations. Why? Rand al’Thor’s red hair is supposed to stand out and mark him apart from the rest of his village, but it doesn’t, because everyone in that village looked wildly different from everyone else. The casting choices make no sense. They are for diversity’s sake. Nothing more. They certainly aren’t to aid in the storytelling.These are magical worlds, but that doesn’t mean that anything goes. They are meant to reflect the real world in ways that help us suspend our disbelief. If I see a film set on the Yucatán peninsula in the year 1502, I’m going to have questions if the cast reflects the entire world instead of reflecting the people of the Yucatán peninsula in the year 1502. Depictions of Tolkien’s world or the world of The Wheel of Time should follow the same logic, because that’s what their creators did. This isn’t Narnia or a meeting at the UN.
Well, I’m glad that I don’t share these racial hangups that prevent you from enjoying fantasy. The white man’s burden sounds tough.
Well, I must admit that the casting decisions have actually ended up being the least of the show’s problems. The only actor convincingly portraying an elf is Ismael Cruz Córdova. Thanks for hearing me out and enjoy the show.
“…to be fair we should call the other take ‘to perpetuate white supremacy.’” That would be neither fair nor valid. “White supremacy” has nothing to do with this issue. It is patently unrelated. As unrelated as declaring the idea to not “diversify” Mulan would be a matter of “East Asian Supremacy.” “Why is it so important to you and your cohort that race be a critical casting consideration for characters for whom the actor’s race isn’t central to their stories?”By your own logic here, you yourself ought to be the last person to have a problem with it then. How does a European fantasy based on Norse and Celtic myth casting white people victimize you, or people of colour? The answer is it doesn’t.
Yeah, people of color never said we were victimized by all-white fantasy universes.Then some showrunners decided to ignore race and just cast the best people (and also hope doing so broadens the reach of their audience), and you clowns lost your goddamn minds.You’re literally complaining about non-discrimination. It’s cartoonish.If you want to be pointlessly and self-sabotagingly racist, go for it. But stop pretending.
If you want criticism of the series I can give you quite a bit.
1) There are non-white characters created by Tolkien but yeah it is not polite-correct to have non-whites as evil.2) Given that there are non-white characters in Game of Thrones and no one complained I can assume that majority of people just wish to see that it is reasonable to introduce non-white characters. Even when they changed originally white characters to black ones there was only minor remarks as it still can be somehow explained given where they came from. But black Hairfoot in closed community? Black elf when in entire history there were I don’t remember how many mixed marriages? 5? And given sources with ENEMY(given who was supported by the only dark skinned group)? SUCH DIVERSITY in a VILLAGE? Did those people who did casting ever been to a regular village? You can see even in our time and age when migration is usual stuff only in cities and most often only big ones.
3) Now about why people hate “female characters in central roles” mb because to make space for them, authors basically butchered originally the most important characters just to force their agenda? Why fans hate Galadriel? Mb Galadriel who should be about 10 thousand years old behaves like a teenage girl after testosterone injection? Mb because to make some statement about how “powerful and independent” women should be they butchered her husband and daughter? Mb they forgot that she is cursed and can’t return to Valinor even if she wanted? I will even ignore how the actor doesn’t match description at all.4) About plot. I tolerated the series before Numinor, but it just broke all my hopes I ever had for series. Galadriel and Halbrand(Sauron) arrive there and the first thing we hear? Elves betrayed us! I thinking, OK, mb they changed some stuff and Sauron already somehow did his thing. But what happens next? We see that it just shit they did to stall the time so we would see “racist and fascist” Numinorians who hate immigrants. What happened to the betrayal and hate between them and elves?
SPOILER In reality Sauron corrupted them and said that elves withhold a secret to immortality and if they support him they could gain eternal life, that’s the “reason for them to feel betrayed” but we see that Sauron just came and still a long way from forcing this idea to their heads SPOILERWhat about Adar who likes his orcs so much that he would release a killer of his “children” and return all of his equipment and weapons to pass “important message”.What about village girl killing an orc? Even real Galadriel, who was said to be the strongest woman, said that she won’t be able to defeat a single orc in fight without her superior martial skills. If they at least selected an actress for her like Briana Tart from Game of Thrones people, who can actually think and don’t live in fairy tale, would be able to take it without complaints.
And about last point, if you wish to say it is fantasy etc, then it is pointless, Tolkien even made a statement in the book that in 4 era when elves left the world, Middle Earth becomes pretty much the same as our real world without magic, super powers and even memory of them. So humans and gnomes are pretty much like average Earth people and if you want to really represent the “the world we are living in” do it not only when it is convenient for you but in all sides of the story.
That was a lot of words to say nothing.1) Total bullshit. Nonsense. Waste of words. Trying real fucking hard though.2) Bullshit. People flipped the fuck out about the black characters in HOD. And there were non-white people in Europe since, well, always.3) Incel nonsense not worth answering.4) Mad that the show contains surprises. Okay dude.etc. Why the fuck are you like this? But I’m glad that you being like this is preventing you from enjoying things. Keep it up.
Yeah, bulshit, the usual answer like when your position is crushed.1) Bullshit that author designed world some specific way. Yeah. Can’t get anything right sure.2) Yeah, so much that no one needed to clean reviews that ratings are really high. There is difference. People like to speak about “tolerance” but forget that tolerance doesn’t mean you need to like everyone just that you can let it be if everything else is OK. That’s what it was in HOD. But you just walk around the point, that it should be appropriate, if they so much wanted to add black characters they could make this whole village some group of blacks from Haradrim and even say that they don’t wish to follow Morgot anymore. Or something like this. Now you just being some piece of “woke” shit. I didn’t say anything about Europe but if you so much as want to talk about it OK. What do we consider non-white and what’s always. If we are talking before Roman slave trade it would be extremely rare for any European to see someone non-white who is not seasonal trader. So it is unlikely to meet someone even in city not to mention village.3) Yeah, “incel”, because either you can’t actually to define what’s wrong or you just some simp who doesn’t care about sources, culture and anything. 4) Surprises? LOL. It is a mess of story.And I glad that this show will be unprofitable. Good luck in your dumb life. While I can enjoy other part of life like real world connections, sport, music etc, and not some shit forced on me, when I as a person who read all the books was expecting something really good and true to source at least in plot
“Your position is crushed.”I have no interest in arguing with adolescents.
“Hi, I’m a first time poster long time black man. Just want to say I’ve been a LoTR fan since they started making movies about it but I have to say: Tolkien must be rolling in his grave to know that his vision has been despoiled and ruined forever by no longer being Whites Only.
P.S. Loved when Legolas did a staircase shield grind 6 vs. 1 at Helm’s Deep to pull Gimli out of a puddle. Very Cool.”
“First time poster, long time black man. Been a fan since the trilogy ever since they made it into a movie but I’m really sure Tolkien is rolling in his grave over this.”
ahem…
The “original trilogy” was published in 1954 and 55.
“One nerd to school them all!” (that’s me)
As an actual Black man, I know we are not a monolith. But something about your post doesn’t ring true. Here are some things I noticed…1) Your screen name. Sure, it could be your actual name. But it doesn’t feel right. I have seen many trolls using just one name as their as screen name. Examples being “John” or “Peter” or something like that because trolls are not clever. Also, it seems this is your first and only post.
2) Just the content of your post. Again, Black people are not a monolith, but lines like “Race swapping elves and dwarves was a terrible idea for the franchise
at large. Making characters look noting like Tolkien originally envisioned isn’t an attack on other race” and “You can’t call people racist or bad for simply making credible critics of this show” sound very White, knowhatimean.Whatever. Do you, “Rashawn”.
Here’s a wild take:
If Tolkien is spinning in his grave because his work has been altered from his original vision to include people of more diverse skin colors? Good.
I don’t need permission from long-dead men who lived through the height of English imperialism to want fantasy to be less of an ethnic monopoly.
FUCKING THANK YOU.I have been a lifelong fan of Tolkien’s work. I couldn’t care less about what he wants, or what ethnicity he wanted the characters to be, because he was dead for half a decade before I was born. And if he would be offended that there are positive portrayals of people of color (I don’t think he would be, but who knows with old dead white dudes) or the very existence of elves of color (again, I don’t think he would be), then his opinions and feelings on the matter are not worthy of respect and we’re under no obligation to respect his wishes.
Youre white
BUILD THAT WALL!
Minas Tirith had a wall.
Make One Thousand and One Nights feature random white people. Demand Arabs be okay with it, then maybe you’d have a point.
LMAO. This was really weak.There are at least three dozen film adaptations of the 1001 Nights featuring all-white or nearly all-white casts. There has never been an outpouring of aggrieved racist super nerds over those the way there are when non-white people show up in fantasy adaptations. That’s strictly white incel behavior.You might as well have imagined an outcry over a white Jesus.
Not weak at all. It’s the same thing, equally as bad, my point is what you are saying is equivalent to you demanding in 2022, to Arabs, to be okay with displacing their own people from their own literature/folklore. It is patently the same as displacing East Asians from Mulan, or Africans from Wakanda. The vast majority of the extant criticisms have nothing to do with racism. And even the portion that criticized the race swap casting is thoroughly legitimate. There indeed has been an outcry over a “white” Jesus, equally legitimate. There was an outcry over whitewashing of Egyptians in film, equally legitimate. The valid criticisms against ROP aren’t that there can’t be non-white people in Middle Earth, Harad, Rhun, Khand, are all non-white regions. But Elves are white. They are paler than even white mortal humans. Tolkien had the Easterlings refer to them as “white fiends” and he called them “the white people of the shores of Elfland.” They are taken from the Norse Alfar and the Celtic Fair Folk, and meant to be literary representations of the magical beings, gods and goddesses, of Northwestern European mythos, specifically Britain. Tolkien didn’t even want too much Greek or Roman aesthetics in his construction of his world, as that is a different tradition than the Anglo-Saxon mythos he was creating. This doesn’t mean LOTR is “inaccessible” to non-Brits, any more than Bruce Lee, Musashi, or the mythical Ta Lo from Shang Chi, or Squid Game, would be inaccessible to anyone outside of those cultures. As we can observe, they are immensely accessible to all races, despite being largely racially monolithic. And in any case the show can feature much of people of colour, actually, as there are many lands where they live in, and the history of the Second Age actually yields MANY opportunities for telling stories about the people of Umbar and Harad. But the show has missed all such opportunities thus far, instead relocating characters of colour to be extras and token characters. It also doesn’t mean they can’t have a black Elf, just that the show ought to respect the source material enough to explain that lineage. Being Halfelven is a thing in the lore. They could have easily provided a lineage of some Moriquendi intermarrying people from Rhun or Khand, instead of random race swapping for the sake of checking a marketing box. Right now, Arondir is a mere token. As is Miriel. Disa, is fun enough to watch that people forget her race. This is the same thing with the Velaryons in Game of Thrones. There are no non-white Valyrians. But since that show’s other aspects are superb, this becomes a non issue. With ROP, the writing overall is atrocious, which is where the bulk of the criticisms lie, and because of this, the race swapping borderlines tokenism.
Dude, after writing nearly 500 words about how terrible it is for a fucking fantasy adaptation to not exclusively cast white people, no one is falling for the weak-ass deflection you guys use to pretend that isn’t your issue: “the writing is bad,” with no specifics.The diverse casting is justifiable in a million ways, but none as true right now than how absolutely fucking awesome it is to create genre franchises that can’t be enjoyed by racist assholes. Like all but the worst elements of our culture, the showrunners and Amazon made the very wise decision that it’s better to include non-white people and exclude white racist dickbags than the other way around.Have fun not enjoying genre from now on because of your fragile, nerdy white supremacism!
What no one is falling for is your complete misrepresentation of the argument. Case in point: “To not exclusively cast white people” was never an argument I made as I specifically stated in my comment Umbar and Harad are a MISSED opportunity. Haradrim is a non white race. Of key importance in Middle Earth. No specifics? I’ll indulge you with specifics in the writing then. Celebrimbor was friends with Durin, not Elrond. The Show changed that just so they can create drama using Elrond by having Gil-Galad send him there to do the spying, but that doesn’t make sense, since the spying was already done, the show literally shows us Gil-Galad and Celebrimbor both already knowing about Mithril, and they knew more than Elrond….. The show has Celebrimbor saying in one scene Durin ignores him, then the next scene showing During having never even left Khazad Dum….The entire story of Galadriel on this show is a series of contrivances. There is no need for random drama between her and those under her command, that went nowhere because she ended up agreeing with them by boarding the ship to Valinor anyway, which itself ended up being pointless since she jumped off said ship, only to be followed by sequence of random events and have her ending up in Numenor, a place she could not wait to leave, only to then have the show have her say that her “tempest” blew her there for a reason….There is no reason for them to make Numenoreans afraid of Elves taking over their jobs when only one Elf showed up and she wanted to bounce ASAP, only to have them support an Elf on some halfbaked idea of a quest one episode later without any reason other than the tree’s leaves falling. There is no reason to make Halbrand need to find a smithing guild crest, steal crest, get locked up, only to free him….there is no reason for the Southlanders to leave their village to get to the Elf tower, which is a defensible fortified position, only to destroy that tower and head back to the village that was previously burnt down and now magically decently standing to then defend their position in a completely unfortified place. It also doesn’t make sense for Adar to attack the tower, or anybody, if he was only looking for the sword. He needed only to show up, demand whoever has the sword to give it up, or else threaten to destroy them. The whole situation was a giant WTF, because his ultimate goal for being there had nothing to do with what he was doing there. All this because the writers had an outline and tick boxes to get to, but they never connect any of the boxes. It’s a show made up completely of a series of situations that aren’t related to each another. One Thing B needs to happen, it just does, without any procession from Thing A. And no, painting any criticism as “racism” is nothing more than talking to the air. No one, least of all Tolkien fans, is saying a Middle Earth show cannot have people of colour. It’s having the people of colour in the right settings and circumstances. No one is barring anyone from creating any genre with people of colour in them. Not since Alien in the 70s, not since Star Trek in the 60s, not since Star Wars in the 70s, not since Aladdin and Mulan in the 90s, has this been any semblance of reality. Let alone Blade, Black Panther, and Aquaman. If the only recourse you have whenever criticism is leveled at a project is “racism” it is not I who is “fragile.” I am also not white, but who I am and who you are are both irrelevant. Only the reasonings we present matter.
It’s super great that you can focus on trivial differences from the source material and/or focus on things that LOTR does and act like they are unacceptable.But son, nowhere in Tolkien does it state that ALL elves are WHITE. The individuals and clans described in the work are described as being white, and those characters are white on this show. But there’s meant to be a huge diversity of elves. The mythology Tolkien built on featured both white and black elves.
Shouldn’t you be more upset about Elves speaking to each other in English? About the non-Middle Earth accents? No actor being as old as the character, etc.? Why is race such a supremely important consideration?We’re all super glad you can’t enjoy this great show. The negative response from racist gatekeepers is only validating the choices the show has made.
“Losselie telerinwa” (The White People of the shores of Elfland). From Narqelion. “White Fiends” (the Easterlings’ name for the Elves, all Elves, including the Dark Elves of the East). They are described by Tolkien as fair, and not just in terms of being pretty. It wouldn’t make sense for someone constructing a mythos for Britain to feature black people, any more than someone constructing a fantasy for China would feature white people. The diversity of Elves are insofar their histories, sundered lineages, languages and cultures. The High Elves, in particular, are whiter than even regular humans who are white. What I highlighted aren’t trivial differences. They are examples of nonsensical writing and characterization. It’s not deviation from lore that makes these situations bad on the show. It’s the fact that the writers, while in one instance show orcs carrying crossbows and vehemently shooting arrows at Arondir and Bronwyn, and the immediate next instant forgot the bows and arrows existed. It’s a mythology for England. The Common Tongue, though not English, evolved into Anglo-Saxon, with conjunction of Westron. I absolutely have issues with ages of the actors. Celebrimbor is not an old bloke. Galadriel is Elrond’s mother in law and is Gil-Galad’s grand-aunt. These are more problematic than race. But ask yourself this: what problem would Chinese audiences have had the mythological population of Ta Lo in Shang Chi be replaced by black people, or the fictional Wakandans be all suddenly Arabs and whites? Whether or not people have a problem with it isn’t the issue. The issue is you demanding that they cannot have a problem. Would Egyptian gods being played by whites be a problem? Yes, it would.It is clear you aren’t arguing genuinely. If you wish, we can only examine the writing, which is the far greater problem with this show.
Whatever you do, don’t tell them they gave Jafar a parrot voiced by Gilbert Gottfried which I’m pretty sure never was in any edition of 1,001 Nights.
Why stop there with a secular text? Make the Bible feature white people and demand Arabs and Jews be okay with it…oh wait.
“Make the Bible feature white people and demand Arabs and Jews be okay with it…oh wait”Not sure if that was meant to be a gotcha or if you are agreeing with me. I will say that either way, featuring white people portraying Biblical characters isn’t the same as demanding Arabs to be ok. Second, many Arabs and Jews appear European. Thirdly, there’s already been tendency to cast darker more Mediterranean casts for Biblical stories, or diverse casting altogether (Chinese guy as an Angel in that one Bible show).
To answer your question, I’m definitely not agreeing with you.
You seem willing to discuss this elsewhere, so I’m going to address one particular point you and others raise: that Middle-Earth is equivalent to Wakanda. It’s just not as clear cut as that.
Wakanda is a fictional country in “real-world” Africa, while Middle-Earth is entirely fictional with regions that suggest parts of England, Europe, and other parts of the “real-world”. I concede it can be a murky distinction, but it’s a difference none-the-less.
Bottom line it just comes down to how much will melanin bother you. I like the idea of representation in a fantasy world more than “Elves only look this particular way”. It’s better for kids to see. And, dare I say, adults too.
It is not a one-to-one equivalence, but Middle Earth is not entirely fiction (more on that later). Insofar as Wakanda is intended to be a mythos for Africa, it is equivalent in spirit that the West of Middle Earth is intended as a mythos for England. That is where the comparison is being drawn. Middle Earth is not “entirely fictional” at all. Arda is actually our Earth, not an alternate universe. Arda (Erde, Earth), is rather a fictional cosmology of our planet, but it’s the same planet. The constellations as viewed from the vantage point of the northern hemisphere are the same, from the Big Dipper to Orion’s Belt. Middle Earth is meant to be the far prehistory of the Old World landmass (Europe, Asia, Middle East, Africa). The western regions of Middle Earth such as Eriador, became Europe. The Sea of Helcar, once drained, would one day become the Mediterranean Sea. All these changes to the landmass would occur in the Fourth Age.To me it’s not about representation per se, more to do with fidelity to source material. Blade is black. Don’t make him white. His blackness wasn’t intimately tide to his character in the initial comic material, he was just born a black man. The fidelity is to portray the icon of this character. But on the topic of representation, I prefer substantive representation over superficial representation. The former is taking a source material or mythos or culture and representing it with the people from which this material was produced. The latter is merely window dressing or done for tokenism or marketing. Wakanda is substantive representation, for example. So, I feel that Ali Baba’s story should be represented by Middle Eastern people. It’s their fantasy tradition. This doesn’t mean Ali Baba isn’t accessible to Asian, black or white people. Also, it seems awkward to me, to use European based myths and stories for representation. It’s ok if a source material has Africans, such as the Iliad and the Trojan War (Memnon, I’m looking at you), but the argument that this is only for representation seems strange, as if people don’t have their own stories to represent in, they need to take bread crumbs from a Eurocentric thing. Agreed how tolerant one is is how tolerant one is and that is subjective, but telling people they cannot object to race swapping or else you get to call them *witch, is borderline Salemite. Of course there are racists out there, but those aren’t nearly as prevalent as the media is trying to paint this. Most people who are criticizing the race swap are fans of other properties that feature people of colour. So I don’t think this article’s argument stands.
Fair enough. There’s also perhaps another meaning for substantive representation. When you have a piece of pop culture like Tolkien’s work that is popular worldwide at the highest level – I’m talking as recognisable as Sherlock Holmes, Star Wars, Spider-Man, etc. – then there are younger generations that see these works and are hugely influenced by them. They want to engage with the stories, play in the worlds, and identify with the characters. These works become larger than just one way of conveying the work (or dare I say a single author’s vision), they become a part of people’s lives in such a way that there’s a communal experience that involves everyone from writers to performers to the audience.
So having diverse representation of our real-world people of all shapes and sizes and colors and points-of-view allows for more people, especially younger people, to see not just characters that look like them but also see how our society and culture chooses to tell and portray these massively popular works – with inclusivity. If that isn’t substantive then I don’t know what is.
I have no problem with that. The problem I have is the demand that people cannot have an objection and that if they do they must be morally reprehensible.
These demands are pretty much only made by anonymous hyperbolic commenters on the internet, but then they always have been and always will do.
Disney had Gilbert Gottfried as the voice of Jafar’s parrot in Aladdin and Robin Williams played a big blue theatric djinn.That’s all.
“Disney had Gilbert Gottfried as the voice of Jafar’s parrot in Aladdin and Robin Williams played a big blue theatric djinn.”As long as you are also demanding Arabs to be okay with that, then you’d at least be consistent on principle.This is both a whataboutism and a false analog. Race swaps in the past aren’t justifications for race swapping today because today we know better. It would only be a true analog to what Amazon is doing if they made an animated musical of Tolkien’s work. They marketed as a serious adaptation into live action. People would expect Black Panther and Mulan levels of fidelity.
Yes. Yes they are.
“Anti-Racist” (i.e. Reverse-Racist), ignoramuses are the most contemptible posers. How would Black Elves get to NW Middle Earth? Being brought up as slaves from Africa?
You know that all the races are just individual acts of primary creation, right?
This was a profoundly stupid post, even for one of you bitter incel types.
And not show runners of rotten shows who claim anyone who criticizes them is “evil”?
Yes, but what if I think the show is terrible because the writing is high school drama club level, the existing lore (despite not being able to be used/referenced) is trampled upon as if it doesn’t actually exist and the characterization of several of the mains is off by leaps and bounds and I think Disa is one of the shows best characters.Am I still a evil racist then? Or is your show just hot garbage with a pretty wrapper?Because, seriously, I could give a shit about skin color.I do care about quality however.
The vast, vast, vast majority of the “backlash” and criticism that I have seen of this show been all about how bad it is – and it is pretty bad thus far. I have no doubt there are a handful of racists and sexists are out there saying nasty things about this show but the whole “everyone who complains about the quality of this show is a racist, a racist homophobe, or a homophobic woman hating racist” media narrative is such total crap. Anyway, the AV Club probably won’t publish this comment.
It seems unlikely that the massive review bombing campaign that occurred before any episodes aired are the result of legitimate criticisms of the show.But yes, it’s not uncommon for bigots to attack media that features women and people of color while avoiding addressing their real issues. This usually takes the form of arbitrary criticisms of things that the same people don’t criticize in other, (white male-led) media, and it’s usually pretty fucking obvious.I’ve yet to see much legitimate criticism, but I have seen a hell of a lot of dicks who only saw the films claiming it violates lore that they neither know nor understand. Either that, or they are criticizing things that also apply to LOTR, which is dumb.But, my dude, “I don’t hate them because they are black; I hate them because (arbitrary and selective criticism) is actually an ancient bullshit deflection.
you seem to conveniently forget the show was bombed by far more 10s than 1s before it came out.
Perhaps because that didn’t happen. But imagining that it had: that’s dumb, but not driven by hate.
yes it did. Geeks and Gamers, Tim Pool, and the rest of the usual grifters all did videos screaming about diversity a full year before release. Which was then documented on this very site. I don’t know what to tell you.
It happened, LOL. Just because you don’t want it to have happened doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen whenever a controversial movie or show comes out. You’ll find reviews that are literally just “I’m posting five stars to counteract the trolls.”And no, it is driven by hate. Hate for the fans, which you find in corporations and their shill “fans.”
lol
criticism that I have seen of this show been all about how bad it is – and it is pretty bad thus far.Care to elaborate why you find it so “bad”? It has it’s issues like any other show, but as an LOTR nerd, I’m thoroughly enjoying it. It’s nowhere near as bad as people claim.
While I don’t like the show, I think you’re probably not gonna get much out of your request. The racist backlash against this show is a minority, but it’s not just a few people here and there. There’s quite a lot of it going around, especially in places where hardcore fans tend to hang out (forums and LOTRO is where I’ve experienced a lot of it), so the OP already started by trying to downplay a very real issue. Also tying it up in a ‘they won’t publish this because it’s too real’ bow is a stellar way to suggest an openness for discourse.
I think you make an interesting point, because the vast, vast majority of people wouldn’t begin to know where to find one of those “fan” forums. Let those losers marinate in their echo chambers.
That would be nice, but I’d really love to discuss the show in a fandom context without regularly dealing with racist misogynists. It’s hard to even discuss the show critically without having horrible people “agree” with you for the worst reasons.
Seems like the type of thing an even modestly moderated forum could handle by blocking users, but I’m hardly expert on the matter.
I don’t think people really use forums much anymore. It’s Reddit or tumblr or Twitter.
“What are three things I avoid like the plague?”
Yeah, nothing makes me feel old quite like my sadness over the death of IP-specific forums and message boards. It was easier to avoid toxic people. Though they grew their own toxic people too, I guess.
“I’m not a bigot but this sucks for reasons that I won’t discuss” is a smoke bomb for bigots
“Me, a white adult male, cannot criticize the female and nonwhite characters on a fantasy show for children without being called a sexist and racist and THAT makes me the real victim in all of this.”
How about the ridiculous dialog or the fact the characters constantly do nonsensical things so plot can happen…
I’ve stopped listening to people who claim they’re super nerds or super fans, because that’s usually said by people who AREN’T super nerds/fans to try to legitimize their acceptance of bad works.
Learn to read. I didn’t proclaim myself to be a super nerd or super fan.I said I’m a nerd who likes LOTR.
Nah, chuds always hide behind disingenuous critiques of bAd WriTinG
and it is pretty bad thus far
You’re probably in the minority with that one
I love it. Everyone I know loves it. Especially the Tolkien diehards including me. Beautifully created, written, and acted, and amazingly reverent toward Tolkien within the license limits. I’m shocked at how good it is.So I’m truly sorry that it disappoints you. Rise Of Skywalker exists so most of us know how that feels. But there is no consensus that Rings Of Power is self evidently bad, if people disagree with you it’s not a conspiracy to pretend otherwise.
I find it a little dull, and I would consider myself, if not a diehard, certainly a fan. But it’s the sort of dullness that is inherent to Lord of the Rings. Good vs. evil is simplistic, and although there are attempts to show some shades a of grey, it’s a little difficult when one side is bent on the complete dominion of all living things. It’s weird watching it at the same time as House of the Dragon, which isn’t perfect either, but at least has characters that feel a little deeper.
It is shocking how Tolkein-esque it feels. I think the people complaining about it for not-racist/misogynistic reasons want it to be like the Jackson movies, but the show really has the pacing of the books.
Counterpoint – it is quite good, and you are no fucking Roger Ebert.
…so, what you’re saying is that it’s not women and minorities getting opportunities that you hate, but rather you’re standing up for ethics in game journalism. Got it.
I definitely have friends who are bitching about the ‘wokeness’ for some reason. It’s not bad, it’s just got 40 hours to fill so it’s moving pretty slow.
Scroll a little bit further up this comments section and you’ll find this little nugget. Let me know if you want more proof of the racism, thanks.
“There are no blacks in Tolkien’s work, just as there are no whites in Wakanda. What the fan wants is for the original material to be respected.”
What this person is very obviously trying to say is “I don’t like seeing Black people on my TV screen.”
100%. The show sucks because Amazon decided to create their own dumb fanfiction instead of just being patient and acquire the rights to The Silmarillion and other material.
I’d believe you if the people doing the loudest complaining had waited to actually watch the show before complaining about the writing and the quality. It’s almost as though they all pre-judged the show for some reason, making their opinions… what is the word for when you pre-judge something?
Yeah, but the 2020s way of handling criticism is to claim that it’s all racist/sexist/homophobic because you can dig up a couple tweets that were. Almost all the backlash is against the show’s hideous writing and absolute raping of Tolkien’s writing and lore, but normies who just obediently obey their corporate masters just scream “racist!” and stop thinking.
Really? So, anyone who doesn’t like this show (and we’re the majority) is just a racist? We can’t have dislike for something anymore?
People sure have a way of reading something that says “racists are bad” and thinking it said “all people in X group are bad racists.”Literally no one said everyone who doesn’t like the show is a racist. You’re the one who inserted yourself into the racist group, Zoe.
The entire mainstream media has turned on this dumpster fire. It’s some of the most pretentious ridiculous writing I’ve ever seen on TV.
This has to be the first time someone used the term “mainstream media” and then appealed to its authority. But what on earth are you talking about? Where’s the turning? Citation please. And humor me: what would you consider to be a non-pretentious fantasy show?
I’m a racist, but that’s not why I dislike this show. I knew they weren’t talking about me.
As you’re not being humoured, I would love to discuss what a non-pretentious fantasy show would be.If we’re going by the definition of “characterized by assumption of dignity or importance, especially when exaggerated or undeserved” I think traditional fantasy is extremely pretentious (although in a way that I quite like). The way that Lord of the Rings unironically values a character like Aragorn, who is by birth the rightful king of the men of Middle Earth, is completely pretentious. Unfortunately, I can’t give you a very clever answer for what I’d consider a non-pretentious fantasy show. The obvious answer is Game of Thrones. No one is given any unearned dignity on that show, and royalty is made to look worse than the common man, often corrupted their ill-gotten power.
It seems like you are arguing that there is one aspect of pretension that Game of Thrones lacks, but that is not the same thing as saying the show/books/etc. aren’t pretentious. Any novels that require extensive appendices with lineages etc., or chronicle-style books to set up backstory, or so many other things, are hardly unpretentious. Also, any fantasy series with significant allegorical elements, explorations of that nature of power and the qualities of good rulers, or any stories of grand conflicts of good versus evil, etc.Game of Thrones (and any other works of this genre) is extremely pretentious, which is only a bad thing when the work can’t deliver on that sense of importance.
I disagree that simply having extensive appendices with lineages etc. is pretentious. The idea of pretentiousness is that you can’t deliver the substance, and are just putting forth a pretence of it. Of course, it’s subjective whether a work has delivered on that sense of importance.It’s going to come down to what you personally believe is real, and since I don’t believe in rule by divine right, or good and evil, a show that bases its universe on these concepts is going to be pretentious to me.Now I don’t necessarily see that pretention as negative, and I enjoy lots of fantasy, but purely as entertainment. I think Lord of the Rings has a lot to say about duty, loyalty, and friendship that I can take seriously, but its basis in a quasi-religious framework is impossible for me to take seriously.Game of Thrones is set in a world that’s much more real to me. In every way, it’s refuting the idea that some people are special because of their birth or station in life. There are some aspects of the supernatural, but to me that’s just something you have to suspend your disbelief for. There’s no underlying philosophy as to why there are dragons or magic, or why the seasons last for years.
Pratchett is about as far from pretentious as you can get, and even though Gaiman is pretty much the opposite, I think Good Omens (Both book and show) on the whole embodies Pratchett’s sensibilities. I think at one point I must have watched either The Colour of Magic or The Light Fantastic, though I barely remember much more than Sean Astin sitting in a tavern, and I’m pretty sure they were even less pretentious still.
Yes Pratchett totally. Always hated Gaiman, because he’s just a pretentious version of Alan Moore.
Fantasy Island?
lol
Except Rotten Tomatoes says you are full of crap. Feel free to fuck off, trumpkin.
Keep flailing, it’s cute.
Which is why Season 2 is already shooting off the numbers it continues to get.
Season 2 is shooting because Amazon paid a billion bucks for 5 seasons. It was gonna shoot no matter what the numbers were.
Yeah, this definitely comes across as a legitimate criticism of the actual show and not a cover for the opinion you had from the moment you found out that they were giving speaking roles to people of color.
Only a hit dog yelps.
It’s literally pointed out that they’re talking about the racist backlash. Not any and all backlash and negativity. But I’m sure you knew that.
They talk specifically about the racist backlash, which is bad, to distract from all the other backlash on the quality of the series, which is way, way worse.Problem is they are using fan baiting to justify their mediocre work and that’s quite insulting to the audience.Cheers
Always that hit dog who hollers.
1) No one said that.
2) Prove you’re the majority.
How trumpian to make up fictitious majorities. Remember – the hit dog yelps.
“So, anyone who doesn’t like this show”Never speak again, human bot.
Zoe far, Zoe good! Zoe what?
Hit dogs holler.
Ismael Cruz Córdova is somehow managing to convince me for a few minutes each week that he is a warrior elf, something no other actor has managed to do. I can’t quite explain it; there’s just something about his bearing and demeanor that makes me think yep, that’s what a warrior elf would do. So whatever process led to his casting is fine by me.On the other hand, I was a bit distracted by the casting of the Harfoots. It’s a very small population to be so racially diverse. Then I reminded myself that the world used to be lit up by a couple of trees and a man just fell to earth like a meteorite and I got over it.Nevertheless, I don’t think anyone should be surprised that a significant portion of The Lord of the Rings fans might be white supremacists. “Black” is used as a symbol or signifier of “evil” throughout, blond hair and blue/gray eyes correlate to special status, bloodlines are of paramount importance, men from far eastern and southern lands are usually described in unflattering terms (physically and morally), and the orcs are just a whole bundle of problems it would take an entire book to unpack. You can also find a lot of things in the novel and in Tolkien’s other writings to support tolerance and acceptance of others and transcending petty differences, but either way he was interested in creating a pseudo myth, not a treatise on modern relations. To take a quote out of context, “I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”Finally, I note that it didn’t take long for the “Don’t call me a racist!” comments to appear. Like, no one called you a racist, but you still thought it was about you. I wonder why that is.
It’s painfully nerdy, but I’m not sure if blond hair is really the standard for special status. The most “beautiful” people in Tolkien tend to be black-haired (e.g. Melian, Luthien, Arwen, Morwen, the Numenorian aristocracy and everyone descended from the Numenorian aristocracy). Which is cute, since his wife had black hair…But yeah, broadly speaking, the correlation between European beauty standards and specialness in Tolkien is pretty strong. Which can certainly attract a certain type of horrible person.
Long as there’s no damn gingers.
I yield to your painful nerdiness. 🙂 I overgeneralized. I was thinking specifically of the elves that appear in the novels, of which the mightiest and those described in the most glowing terms tend to be fair-haired, and perhaps no hair is given greater attention than that of Galadriel, “the mightiest and fairest.” Arguably their hair should look like literal spun gold and/or silver, but no one seems to have a problem with the use of blonde wigs and extensions.
Córdova is so committed to his role that Arondir is the Elf hero we didn’t know we needed. Casting him was a creative swing for the fences against type and expectations and he paid off so much more than just another Legolas clone.And I’m eager for seeing all the extensive dispersed tribes of Avari, Nandor, and so on having all different looks at styles.
I too would like to see Nandor the Relentless on this show.
He’s the only actor in the show whose presence feels elf-like to me. By far.
Ismael Cruz Córdova is somehow managing to convince me for a few minutes each week that he is a warrior elf, something no other actor has managed to do. I can’t quite explain it; there’s just something about his bearing and demeanor that makes me think yep, that’s what a warrior elf would do. I got the same sense, but one scene comes to mind for me. When he is in the tower in the first episode and is told their mission is over and they are being sent home. He played that with a perfect sense of “yeah, I don’t think this mission is done with, but orders are orders.” He knows there is still too much of Sauron’s influence in the South, but keeps a stoic resignation about it. Your mileage may vary.
He has been outstanding. He’s doing everything right, and his scenes are the best part of every episode.
Well, there’s the showrunner calling all criticism of “Rings of Pooper” racist, meaning he’s calling the majority of REAL fans racist. If you buy into his narrative and believe him, you’re a sheep.Also most of the elves and men are dark haired, including the two most beautiful elfwomen in the world. Only a few are blond, and even some characters you think of as blond, like Legolas, are ambiguous. If you were that knowledgeable, you’d know that.
Absolute nonsense. The POC in Rings of Power are some of the best characters. They aren’t the problem. The problem is that this show is a horrifically written trash fire. It’s extremely boring, it’s riddled with so many plot holes I don’t know where to begin (2000 mile trip by sea from Numenor to Southlands in one day? Bronwyn clearly shot with TWO arrows, the worst of which magically vanishes to be forgotten by the script?). Galadriel is an unforgivable horrendous take on a female heroine, and insult to all who have come before her. She is 100% unsympathetic, a simple trope of woman + toxic masculinity = strong female character. Plastic and fabric disguised as armor? The “Battle for the Southlands” is one village with about 6 buildings and 100 people? Where is the sense of scale? Where is the epic show we were promised? Where did the money go?
Does he address the fact that the racist “backlash” was actually made up by amazon to have something to blame bad reviews on?
Everyone is a dog on the internet. And anyone can make up stupid shit to defend their racism. Hit dogs yelp.
the racist “backlash” was actually made up by amazon“Also, 9/11 shot JFK!”
I literally have friends complaining that it’s too ‘woke’, which is very unusual, so it’s definitely not made up.
If it’s unusual wouldn’t that be an argument against it being a “racist” complaint? If your friends aren’t racist, then their complaint would seem to be tied to something else. Right?
Oh no, it’s almost definitely because of casual racism. I live in Redneckistan, PA, non racists are very few and far between. It’s just unusually for them to actually complain about the wokeness thing.
Altoona?
Other side: Southern Poconos
Okay, gotcha. I misunderstood what you meant. Thanks for clarifying it for me.
I can get the argument that there weren’t any black Elves but the fact is there never were Elves to begin with, nor Hobbits, nor Orcs, nor Wizards…it’s just a fantasy. Get over it.
It’s telling that in world with actual fucking dragons it is a bridge to far for POC to be there.
Those better be WHITE dragons! /s
See also a regenerating Gallifreyan Time Lord who travels space and time in a period British police phone box that is bigger on the inside than the outside, and who is A WOMAN BLACK?!
Wait, you mean aliens across the universe don’t all have British accents?
No, just the Imperial Navy.
Lots of planets have a north.
They don’t actually like the things they say they do. What they really like is being a scummy piece of shit. And that’s all they are. They’re not worth listening to. In fact, knowing my enjoyment of the show and its characters upsets them makes it even better. I don’t waste a single thought on trash-ass incels and racists. Eat an entire pallet of dicks, I say.
So where are all these assholes in here getting the “made-up racist backlash” talking point?
General feedback loop that comes with the territory of being internet trash-babies.
Billion dollar companies using social justice issues for guaranteed free controversy buzz does more harm to equality progress than good.
I mean even AV Club has to see by now that shows incorporate these purported racist/gendered backlashes as part of their marketing strategy…you find one neckbeard on the internet complaining about casting a POC and a mediocre show has weeks of soft-focus free publicity as a white knight standing against hordes of the unenlightened. In this light the box-office failure of Bros is really telling; a textbook example of revealed preference.
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At what point are these guys at Amazon just going to admit the show sucks and stop strawmanning the .00000000001% of comments they got that didn’t like black elves?
How much of the criticism is just bigoted, though? The show is pretty weak.
I love the telling on yourself “oh so you’re calling me a racist just because I don’t like the show” and “well I haven’t seen very much racism directed toward this show” comments. It’s the same shit as the racist backlash to Obi-Wan Kenobi – you’re well within your rights to not like it because you have issues with the pacing, the quality of the writing, not finding the plot compelling, etc. (and there are certainly quite a few professional critics who have made just those points), but when Black actors say “I’m getting a deluge of racist abuse over my role in this show that is unlike anything I’ve ever experienced in my life” and your response is “no, actually most of the criticism of this show is warranted and the racists are just a small minority” you are being racist by telling Black people that their experiences being subjected to racism are not real or are not that big of a deal. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Tolkien described his elves as fair of skin repeatedly and exclusively, so Amazon cannot accuse their critics of misinterpreting the text. Amazon opted for a more diverse cast than that. Painting critics who wanted fidelity to the text as racist is awful. I was mad that Chris Evans didn’t bother to dye his hair blond when he played the Human Torch in the Fantastic Four movies. Going with brown hair made him look more like me, but did I care? No. I wanted him to look like the character from the comic book. Some fans just want adaptations to be faithful to the source material. That’s all. But Amazon and their apologists refuse to accept differences of opinion in good faith. They’d rather paint their critics en masse as racist. That makes them far more awful than their critics.
What I’m hearing: “Tolkien fans are pointing out what crap our show is for a variety of different reasons, including raping his lore, morality, characters and world-building, so we’ll try to silence them by claiming they’re all just racist. Even better, it’ll get the idiot normies on Twitter and the AV Club to hate the fans too becuz we said all criticism is racist! They’re such sheep!”And LOL, he’s calling the fans “evil” for criticizing his precious corporate “fan”fiction? So thin-skinned, so fragile, such a loser.
Pathetic of those “writers”. No one is critisizing diversity if its done RIGHT. Look at House of Dragons, great actor, great writing, no one complains. With Rings of Power we have a giant turd on hand, the writing and plotholes are so bad, it´ll be remembered as the WORST TV show of all time. Sooner or later they have to face the criticism and can not hide under racism accusations.
When you read the original trilogy – you get the indescribable, magical, mystical feeling of wonder, of being “in there”, the feeling of an amazing new world where evil and good can be quantified, measured and explored. The Silmarillion goes even further than that and reads almost like a sort of holy text. Peter Jacksons movie had a few moments that almost felt close to those feelings, but the new tv series is absolutely soulless in that regard.
Elves are described as wonderful, beautiful, long haired creatures. They are often arrogant, hard to understand, wise, closer to gods both literally and figuratively according to Silmarillion. In fact – at earlier ages they are even more god-like and powerful, than when we saw them in the movies.
Galadriel is supposed to be smart and cunning, usually calm, elegant figure, which exudes threat, power, knowledge and sorrow. She is portrayed more like a “good witch” of Wizard of Oz, than a warrior. Never as a warrior. In the tv series she just looks like a brat, absolutely and thoroughly unlikable, and her actress is simply unable to come even close to Kate Blanchett’s portrayal of Galadriel in the movies. Her decisions do not make any sense, and so is the most of the plot, or anyone’s decisions for that matter. Even one-liners about the nature of good or evil feel absolutely childish compared to the movies, let alone the books.
The simple truth is – Amazon made an expensive beautiful looking, but otherwise generic schlock, which uses the beloved ip’s name, but not it’s spirit, content or meaning. It is seemingly losing viewership with every episode even to She-Hulk, let alone House of the Dragon, which turned out to be excellent, and still has decent representation. Now they are seeking who’s to blame and how to shame people into watching it.
The notion that only racist do not like the show is absurd. 9 out of 10 critical videos and text reviews I’ve seen do not even mention black elves, representation or powerful women, or they in fact praise Arondir as the closest true portrayal of an elf compared to the books. Most of the negativity is about horrendous plot and storyline, nonsensical decisions, bad cast of actors for elves and their overall portrayal, as well as the side of “good” somehow feeling evil at times, while the side of “evil” feeling justified in their actions. Anyone who read the books will immediately understand just how different it is compared to them. To the point where “Saruman of many colors” was just not an option for Tolkien – the “gray” characters in the books are still either misguided good or hiding evil characters.
Overall, it’s just sad that they chose this ip to massacre. They could’ve spent all that money and created something new and wonderful, instead they took something writers either didn’t even read or understand and destroyed it, and now shifting blame onto supposed racists, while conveniently ignoring the fact that the same people who criticize them – love masterfully made HOTD, despite inclusivity.
You can’t substitute good graphics for a good plot, or good ip for good actors.
So… without any examples or direct links, screenshots, or quotes this whole article is pointless garbage. Because making claims without any evidence is BS.What exactly did people say and do? Because just going with the default “people are sexist and racist” etc. literally just means people had a negative reaction to something at this point.Also, if you take a beloved work of fiction (that already had a significantly developed Canon – from the actual source material) and know that those those characters (within it) were described down to the most minute details, then the backlash makes complete sense.To change that for no other reason than trying to signal just how “inclusive” or “virtuous” a project is becomes obvious really quickly, and that then becomes extremely gross. The moment that something (like race or gender) breaks logic, feels forced or doesn’t track easy the audience is immediately aware and now it’s apparent that their race and gender is being used as a tool and that is racism and sexism at it’s finest.So it’s pretty easy to understand the backlash for some of this crap. Studios need to quit forcing things. Find natural ways to be inclusive. Because this crap? It’s never going to work. This is what you should expect to receive for spiting in the faces of the people who have been heavily invested in this for decades.
Everybody knows they wokified LOTR to get good reviews…and it worked