If there’s one thing we can all count on as a society, it’s that Hollywood will always want to make a new Terminator movie and that Terminator movie will always be a critical and/or commercial failure. It happened with Terminator 3: Rise Of The Machines (despite that movie having one of the most perfect deleted scenes in cinema history), it happened with Terminator Salvation, it happened with Terminator Genisys, and it happened just this year with Terminator: Dark Fate, despite the fact that it was supposed to be the big shot at redemption for the series, with original creator James Cameron coming on board to produce and star Linda Hamilton returning to star. Now, Dark Fate director Tim Miller has sat down with KCRW to talk about what went wrong, offering an unusually candid glimpse into what it takes to make another disappointing Terminator sequel.
For starters, Miller says he could write a book about all of the things that went wrong with Dark Fate, and even though he’s still “processing” his feelings about its box office struggle, he maintains that he’s “proud of the movie.” Also, interestingly, he points out that some of the things people really disliked about his movie are things he has no control over, like, say, general “franchise fatigue” or lingering disappointment from the other Terminator movies. It’s a reasonable defense, but on the other hand, he knew people were tired of recycled sequels and he knew those other movies were bad when he signed on to make this one, so it’s only somewhat not-his-fault.
Miller also talks about some of the disagreements he and Cameron had during production, saying that even though Cameron got final say as a producer, he still felt the need to fight for certain “poetic and beautiful” moments that Cameron didn’t care about. Another disagreement involved the original Terminator director wanting the future timeline to involve the humans winning in the war against the machines, as had been the case in his movies (which is what made the machines so desperate to kill John Connor), while Miller thought it made more sense to have the humans on the ropes (because then it raised the stakes for the new machine threat).
All in all, the bad experience with Dark Fate actually soured Miller on any hypothetical future projects with Cameron, saying it has “nothing to do with whatever trauma” he got from the experience, he just doesn’t want to make another movie where someone else can stop him from doing what he thinks is right. (On that note, don’t look for Tim Miller to make a Star Wars movie any time soon. We’re willing to bet James Cameron is nothing compared to Kathleen Kennedy.)
206 Comments
I was kind of excited for this movie.
Now I’m hearing it came out already?
And bombed?
That’s how I felt about Charlie’s Angels
Echoes of Star Trek: Nemesis.
Check back in five minutes. The reboot will have been released and bombed in turn by then.
I haven’t had the chance to see it yet. But, typically, the more people say a movie failed, I’m more likely to see it. And vice versa.
You must spend a lot of time watching really crappy Hollywood movies.
I’ve heard some surprisingly good things about it.
I like the franchise, but people need to bitch about something.
A good way to see a lot of crap movies, anyway. But man, so edgy.
They failed to inform me of K.I.T.T (and K.A.R.R) and Christine’s fates in this Terminator sequel, so I wasn’t hooked.
I saw it Halloween night. It was okay but I’m not surprised that it bombed.
That’s my take as well—decent film but it was destined to bomb.
There’s no way Tim didn’t know what he was signing up for. It’s James Cameron. But I bet he thought he could still make some money.
There’s not really much to argue here since by all accounts the movie was decent, we just don’t give a shit about Terminator anymore. What I do know is Cameron is a notorious prick and tyrant, so no one should be surprised, and yet you should probably listen to him.
Yes but have you considered that noted environmentalist James Francis Cameron has a Venezuelan frog species named after him, while lesser talent Steven Spielberg does not?
SIGORN-E is on AV Club!P.S. That running joke in that episode is one of the funniest running jokes every done in an episode. I love how they get progressively worse as she realizes what an asshole he is.
“Certified door expert James Cameron…”
THIS: “we just don’t give a shit about Terminator anymore.”And Cameron will find out the same when he discovers we don’t give a shit about his 8 Avatar sequels.
I could correct you and say it’s only actually 5 Avatar sequels and, sadly, not even be joking.
My only worry about the next Avatar movies will be the same thing that is happening with Avengers: Endgame to this day: a flood of spamming news about it, for years to come.
I though the movie was good. And it took guys to make a movie after 3failures
Audiences haven’t really been interested in Terminator since the 90’s but the suits just haven’t picked up on it yet.
Possibly unpopular opinion, but I really think the end of Terminator 3 did as much as anything to stifle the franchise. The 2nd movie offered a ray of hope to humanity; 3 snuffed it out. What’s the point in going to see movie after movie about how civilization is doomed and everything is shit?
The second movie offered a ray of hope that we didn’t need, because we already had that ray of hope in the original Terminator. T2 was as unnecessary as it was overwrought and artless. T3 seems to have been born of a conflict between those who wanted to restore the dignity of the original and those who wanted to reproduce the cheese of the second.
2edgy4me
Not so much “edgy” as “crotchety.”
Counter-point Terminator 2 is The Godfather 2 of sci-fi action flicks. An entirely unneeded sequel that is still amazingly well done
If I’m being perfectly honest, I never really got the appeal of Godfather 2, either. It always struck me as a collection of individually good scenes that doesn’t really coalesce into a meaningful whole. 🙂
Where has Tim Miller been his whole life to not know you can’t successfully second-guess Jim Cameron?And why did Miller think he could out-leverage Ryan Reynolds to get his way in DEADPOOL 2 when RR was both star and executive producer? Was never gonna happen.Tim Miller needs to pick winnable fights. No wonder he is 0-2.
Hey, whatever happened to you? The guy you replied to was looking for you for the longest time but then he just seemed to lose interest.
I duno, I much prefer Deadpool 1 to 2. I don’t really want to rewatch Deapool 2 and I rewatched the first one quite a few times. I have to think that has something to do with Tim Miller. He probably kept RR on a slack leash and not letting him do what ever he wants, I mean there’s several cuts of Deadpool 2 now with different jokes etc, which is a bit ridiculous. 2 wasn’t a bad movie but it lost it’s charm and the only bit I want to rewatch is the after credits scene.
He should probably also stop talking shit and airing his behind the scenes grievances or he’s going to end up directing straight to streaming movies about 5 headed sharks for Asylum.
Dark Fate was definitely the best of the three Terminator 3s. Not so good that you shouldn’t just rent and rewatch Terminator 2, though.
“Dark Fate was definitely the best of the three Terminator 3s.”
Bull. Terminator 3 was much better than Dark Fate was.
Terminator 3 was much better than Dark Fate was. Yeah, but it’s a bit like asking which would you rather have: aids or syphilis? One will kill you, the other will make you blind and insane..
It also feels like Genysis came out like, a year ago? There wasn’t much time at all between *that* timeline and *this* timeline.
“Yeah, but your producers were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”
I was actually originally really excited for this movie since they were bringing back the original characters (Arnold Schwarzenegger, Linda Hamilton, and Edward Furlong). I stopped wanting to see the movie once I found out they (spoilers) kill child John Connor in the first 10 minutes, which completely negates the events from Terminator 2 and instead made Dark Fate about a bunch of new women I don’t care about.
The movie was not in fact… decent.
we YOU just don’t give a shit about Terminator anymore.there FIFY. the problem is people keep trying to “change” the story instead of just simply continuing it…If you want the fans that made T2 such a box office sucess then how about you just continue the story, instead of trying to change it and putting new spins on it? i’ve been waiting for 20 years to see an Adult John Conner in a dark and grim world lead the resistance to final victory…instead they just keep trying to change the story….
‘Changing the story’ is the entire premise. Once you accept time travel, everything else follows. Unfortunately, it opens the door to a literally unending series of sequels and prequels in which the machines try to manipulate time to avoid or forestall that final defeat. It will only end when Hollywood proves to its own satisfaction that there is no more money to be made.
I disagree. I love the Terminator franchise and I would have welcomed a good movie. Instead, we got a Force Awakens style reboot where they decided to replace the mythology with a new one.I would have loved an Aliens style treatment for the franchise where they got away from the one entity and added a bunch of Terminators such as a SkyNet back-up plan that activated T-800s to take over NORAD etc or they have been building an Army in secret that started the apocalypse.Instead, we just got a soft reboot with the hope that female leads would increase the size of the audience.
I liked the movie. It’s a shame Cameron is too busy shooting Avatar 2 through 10, despite never having written a script for the first one.
it failed because you tried to pander to the SJW niche and those people don’t watch movies because they refuse to work. so that is your problem.
We’re willing to bet James Cameron is nothing compared to Kathleen Kennedy.Wasn’t Rian Johnson notoriously given the authority to basically retcon nearly all of JJ Abrams’ decisions regarding TFA (Rey’s parents, Snoke, etc.)? This seems like a weird, and incorrect, sideswipe.
Yep – if anything, the ST is notable for LACKING a single authorial voice to guide the narrative
Star Wars had that.We got the prequels because of it.
The issue with the prequels isn’t that George Lucas was in charge of the story of all 3 films.It’s that, unlike in the OT, he insisted on directing all three films.
The problem with the prequels is more in the writing than the directing, although the directing wasn’t brilliant.
It takes monumentally awful directing to coax performances that bad out of such a talented cast…and not to fine-tune the script, once you saw how the words sounded coming out of people’s mouths.
George Lucas directed and wrote all three prequels.
Yes. Exactly.Meanwhile, he only directed the first episode of the OT, and even that featured a much more powerful cinematographer than anyone he worked with in the PT.
It was both if we’re being honest. In the OT, he also had people telling him “no George, that’s a bad idea”. By the time the prequel trilogy rolled around, he was completely surrounded by yes men.
yea, “wooden” acting, (or whatever prequel knock you want to copy and paste from a 15 year old message board), one thing the prequels had was a consistent and working narrative across all three films, so i really don’t see what the fuck point your trying to make lmfao
There was no “decision” about Rey’s parents or Snoke in TFA.
Killing Snoke is a swerve, not a retcon. What Kylo says about Rey’s parents is a verbal claim by a manipulative mass murderer – i.e., also not a retcon. But, if you think Kennedy gives filmmakers carte blanche… ever heard of a little low-budget indie called Solo?
Eh. Solo was and is a meaningfully different enterprise from a core trilogy film.
Sure. So? If anything, one would think that would mean an opportunity to give filmmakers more freedom, not less. Kennedy’s approval of Johnson’s work only proves that she liked his style. It doesn’t prove that she lets all filmmakers do their own thing. (See: the large number of directors fired under her tenure.)
…huh?You think that using an iconic, pre-established character, in a story set in an era of the past where other stories are being told, offers *more* freedom than being given carte blanche to chart the future (without even being asked to consult the directors of the other films in a purported “trilogy”)? Also…I’m gonna need a source listing the “large number of directors fired under her tenure,” outside of Solo.Trevorrow, I guess?
Trevorrow, Trank, D&D… not a sign fo a healthy franchise.
Yes. Hiring Trank and D&D in the first place wasn’t a sign of a healthy franchise.Although, in fairness, I’m not sure whether they fired D&D, per se, or if they chose to take the Netflix deal instead.
Gareth Edwards? The extensive reshoots on Rogue One were reportedly handled by Tony Gilroy.So with Edwards, Lord & Miller, and Trevorrow, that makes four directors who didn’t complete the film they were hired for, over just five films. Admittedly, Lord & Miller being two people skews it a little, but 3 out of 5 ain’t great either, and that’s assuming no one had already been hired for any future spinoffs that got cancelled in the wake of Solo’s underperformance.Agreed on the idea that Solo was likely a more restrictive film than The Last Jedi though.
Trevorrow, Benioff/Weiss, Gareth Edwards was basically shuffled off at the end, Lord/Miller. Not saying she/Lucasfilm was wrong in every case, either.
Josh Trank also got canned, which is understandable and Garreth Edwards sort of got the boot, even though his name is still on Rogue One. Sounds like a significant portion of it is not his film after they took it away from him. Seems like there was someone else too, but I’m drawing a blank. All in all, about the amount of directors who couldn’t work within Kevin Feige’s guidelines and no one is trashing him.
All in all, about the amount of directors who couldn’t work within Kevin Feige’s guidelines and no one is trashing him.Because those guidelines have largely shown to be incredibly successful in constructing an interconnected universe with two dozen movies that have been generally accepted as decent-to-great over the last decade.Kennedy’s guidelines, such as they are (or aren’t), have produced 5 movies in 4 years that have been commercially successful but mixed on reception.
Lord and Miller got canned for Solo. In steps Lucasfilm fanboy Ron Howard.
Here’s the issue though. Rian’s style doesn’t fit when it’s the middle of a planned trilogy. Had he started out an entirely new story, great, it probably would’ve been good. But everything he did just reaked of amateurish storywriting and Kathleen is to blame for not making sure the trilogy had one cohesive vision throughout.
Here’s the issue though. Rian’s style doesn’t fit when it’s the middle of a planned trilogy. Had he started out an entirely new story, great, it probably would’ve been good. But everything he did just reaked of amateurish storywriting and Kathleen is to blame for not making sure the trilogy had one cohesive vision throughout.
“If anything, one would think that would mean an opportunity to give filmmakers more freedom, not less.”
Why would you think a prequel would provide more opportunity for freedom?
“Why would you think a prequel would provide more opportunity for freedom?” Why hire the guys who made the meta, innovative Jump Street movies if you wanted a straightforward, square Ron Howard flick? And I’m one of the few who likes all three Da Vinci Code movies as well as Solo, but c’mon, that’s cuckoo for cocoa puffs hiring right there.
Those weren’t retcons, they were mystery boxes.Hell, even if they weren’t, they still weren’t retcons, because unused plans aren’t canon.
Yeah, whatever Abrams plans were, these aren’t retcons because they don’t contradict anything from the first film. In fact from, ahem, a certain point of view, Rey’s parentage reveal in TLJ is a way to pay-off her anxiety about it in TFA, just in an unexpected way.
“Rey’s parentage reveal in TLJ is a way to pay-off her anxiety about it in TFA”This!
Except there was no pay off. TFA raised many questions involving Rey’s parentage. It wasn’t just about who they were in relation to how strong in the force she is. It was also, why they abandoned her in the first place. Why they abandoned her where they did. Why they never made an attempt to find her. There are many many questions that need answering, and the “your parents were nobodies”, is not a sufficient answer. It might not be a retcon, but it’s not a swerve either. It’s just bad storytelling.
We’re told that they sold Rey for drinking money. This doesn’t sound like the action of someone who’ll try to find you again later. (Also, then they died.) As for why they abandoned her where they did, I’m going to say “because Jakku is the kind of place where you can sell a child for drinking money.” Hopefully there aren’t too many places in the galaxy you can do that.The way that TLJ pays off the story of Rey’s parentage is by telling you it doesn’t matter. Rey is not special because of who her parents were, she’s special because she is a resourceful, brave person who is able to recognise her own strength in the Force and pursue it. She survived in a harsh, uncaring world all by herself and made something of her life. That’s what’s special about her, and in ‘The Last Jedi’ she learns this.
We’re told that they sold Rey for drinking money. This doesn’t sound like the action of someone who’ll try to find you again later. (Also, then they died.) As for why they abandoned her where they did, I’m going to say “because Jakku is the kind of place where you can sell a child for drinking money.” Hopefully there aren’t too many places in the galaxy you can do that. The way that TLJ pays off the story of Rey’s parentage is by telling you it doesn’t matter. Rey is not special because of who her parents were, she’s special because she is a resourceful, brave person who is able to recognise her own strength in the Force and pursue it. She survived in a harsh, uncaring world all by herself and made something of her life. That’s what’s special about her, and in ‘The Last Jedi’ she learns this.Quoted in its entirety just because it’s objectively right.
No, it’s not. TFA MADE the identity of her parents important. You can’t just handwave away a major plotpoint simply because you don’t know where to go with it.
“TFA MADE the identity of her parents important.”
No it didn’t.
No. It made you think it was important. But, sorry, pal, not everything in life you think is important will be.
TFA MADE the identity of her parents important.No it didn’t. She’s certain they’re coming back. Right up until the point she realizes they never are, and goes out on an adventure. Their identity was never as important as the fact that she was abandoned.
Also objectively stupid in the context of Star Wars. By that point we’ve had something like 14+ hours of movies spanned over 4 decades focused solely on one family. To come in at the 15th hour and say “meh…. family doesn’t matter” is just terrible story telling because they don’t do anything with that major reveal after the bomb is dropped. It’s shocking for shocking sake. You can drop a bomb like that but you have to do something with it and Rian Johnson just doesn’t. Furthermore, “she’s special because she is a resourceful, brave person” isn’t special. The universe is filled with resourceful, brave people that have made something of themselves. Hell, in the prequels we learn the world is full of people strong in the Force (until the strongest kills nearly all of’em). There’s no reason to believe people stopped being born with force powers just because Anakin went nutso. So that’s not even special. The whole ‘shocking’ revel just isn’t supported by the legacy of the films. It’s a terrible. If Rian Johnson had control in the 7th and 9th films, maybe he could have supported that… but he didn’t, so it just rings objectively wrong because it doesn’t follow from what we, the viewer, have already had pre-established.
Also objectively stupid in the context of Star Wars. By that point we’ve had something like 14+ hours of movies spanned over 4 decades focused solely on one family. Which practically everyone has had enough of because of the horseshit hand-waving that had to be done to connect practically everything in that huge galaxy to the Skywalkers. To come in at the 15th hour and say “meh…. family doesn’t matter” is just terrible story telling because they don’t do anything with that major reveal after the bomb is dropped.That wasn’t said or implied. “Let’s move forward” is the offer Kylo gives, and it’s kind of rejected.There’s no reason to believe people stopped being born with force powers just because Anakin went nutso.There’s canon reason not to believe it. Plus the ever increasing number of survivors of the “purge.” Up until now though (and barring any further changes to Rey’s story) the only person who could save (or destroy) the galaxy needed Skywalker blood.
Wow and here I thought it couldn’t be any worse than “they were nobodies”. I stand corrected, “you were sold for drinking money” is actually worse.
““you were sold for drinking money” is actually worse.”
Worse than WHAT?
And? It happens. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t maje it bad storytelling.
It’s bad story telling because it doesn’t follow from what we know about the story thus far.
No. It didn’t follow what YOU THINK is happening.
No, it didn’t follow what LITERALLY every single other writer and director of any of the 8 main Star Wars movies said was happening. It’s not like the themes of the Star Wars movies are some hidden mysteries. They wear them pretty openly on pinned all over their sleeves.
And the person who told her that is not to be trusted in any way, so I don’t believe it.
Why is he not to be trusted? Kylo may be a murderer and an unstable maniac, but nothing in his characterisation suggests he’s a liar. He tends to be recklessly honest, if anything. Plus, it’s Rey who says, “They were nobody.” She’s agreeing with Kylo that she already knows the truth. He fills in the extra details about her parents, and at no point does she contradict him that this is something she already knows. As presented in the text, there’s no reason to doubt the truth of this story.
Exactly. Why can’t anybody see this?
Some Star Wars fans have been conditioned to expect an answer for everything, for everything to be explained fully, and for there to be no mystery or otherwise unanswered questions when all is said and done.This is why the combination of JJ Abrams and Star Wars is so bad. JJ Abrams likes to set up his dumb puzzle boxes everywhere, but puzzle boxes are antithetical to the established ways and means of Star Wars. Everything in Star Wars exists to be explained. That random extra with an ice cream maker prop in the background? He had a name and en entire backstory, and now the ice cream maker prop is canon thanks to the Mandalorian. The prequel trilogy exists for no other reason than to explain literally everything that happens in the original trilogy (and to make money). Solo exists to give backstory to a character that was better not having one. JJ Abrams creating puzzle boxes, and then Rian Johnson summarily disposing of the two biggest ones (Snoke’s identity/purpose, Rey’s parentage) in quick order is not how it’s supposed to work. Star Wars does not have insignificant events. Somebody of Rey’s power clearly must be the progeny of somebody we’ve heard of – either a secret Skywalker or a Kenobi or somebody of that pedigree. Snoke absolutely must be explained further.Sadly, now that JJ Abrams is back in charge, I’m sure that any of the vastly more interesting directions that TLJ pointed towards will be course-corrected and ROS will just be another nostalgia-fueled retelling of RotJ, like TFA was for ANH.Star Wars, as a franchise, is the epitome of telling instead of showing. That’s why the Mandalorian has been so refreshing. So far there hasn’t been a single exposition dump, a single statement of who/what/why, yet somehow we’re able to follow the story just fine, even with some unknowns./endrant
“It’s just bad storytelling.”
It’s not. There’s another movie coming. You know how sometimes you set up questions that will be answered later? Them not being answered at the very moment YOU want them answered doesn’t make it bad storytelling.
Also, not getting the resolution you played out in your head doesn’t make for bad storytelling.
No it’s not. Why does she need certain parentage to be strong in the Force? That’s cliche as hell.
It’s also a major theme of at least 7 of the 9 movies that span 4 decades and 14+ hours of cinema time. Cliche, sure… but well established in the series as well.
No. That’s only one family. It doesn’t prove it always works like that. I guess Yoda was a Skywalker too, huh?
According to George Lucas, Kathleen Kennedy, and JJ Abrams, the prequels, the original trilogy, and the sequel trilogy are 100% about the Skywalker family. Every film from the original trilogy and the prequels have had a Skywalker as the main protagonist. There’s no indication by JJ Abrams or Kathleen Kennedy that has changed. This is just edgeboi wishful thinking is all.
Kylo is technically that part of that. Doesn’t mean she is a Skywalker. Derpy derp.
Kylo isn’t the protagonist. But I’m sure you know that deep down and are just afraid to admit it.
Shut fuck up and stop moving goal posts. Maybe they aren’t telling the boring conventional story everybody else does. He doesn’t have to be for this to be about the Skywalkers still.
Do you know what the word ‘protagonist’ means?
Do you know what not telling a story the same boring way means?
Except there was no pay off. TFA raised many questions involving Rey’s parentage. It wasn’t just about who they were in relation to how strong in the force she is. It was also, why they abandoned her in the first place. Why they abandoned her where they did. Why they never made an attempt to find her. There are many many questions that need answering, and the “your parents were nobodies”, is not a sufficient answer. It might not be a retcon, but it’s not a swerve either. It’s just bad storytelling.
Actually, I’m going to say that the bad storytelling choice is to think that asking those questions in the first place is a good substitute for character development. Because they way they used those particular mystery boxes completely derailed Rey’s character arc.Literally, she’s on the standard Hero’s Journey, same as Luke is. Like Luke, she initially Refuses the Call: Rey says nope, have to stay on Jakku, because my parents might return. Luke says nope, have to stay on Tatooine, because “Listen, I can’t get involved. I’ve got work to do. It’s not that I like the Empire, I hate it. But there’s nothing I can do about it right now. It’s all such a long way from here.”But the problem is that, however much Lucas may not have Abrams’ gift for naturalistic dialogue, Abrams has not read Hero with a Thousand Faces nearly as thoroughly as Lucas has. Because Lucas then quickly builds in a reason into the plot for Luke to heed The Call: the Empire stops being a long way from here, and in fact comes right to his doorstep by summarily executing Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. By contrast, Abrams gives Rey absolutely zero reason, for the entire movie, to stop Refusing the Call. She just kinda . . . forgets about it for a few days. And while Johnson’s decision to provide an expository “Stop bothering with those drunken hobos, Rey!” may be jarring, it at least clears up this plot problem. Abrams’ need for mystery boxes may make for good marketing, but it’s a narrative crutch generally, and in this case, it literally stopped Rey’s character arc cold in the first film.
But there was nothing to indicate the questions were important to anyone but Rey, or that the answers really mattered. If she wasn’t one of the main characters, the audience would care far less too. What made those questions significant was how they informed her character, and her development came from letting those mysteries go. How is that bad storytelling?
Oh god it’s happening again, it’s everywhere
“This seems like a weird, and incorrect, sideswipe.”- The AV Club
Rian Johnson did a fantastic job in making a great movie (minus the must have Disney kid garbage) but Jar Jar Abrams will be back to give us some typical and expected connection to everything and lame ending.
I have thought on it 2.Stop hiring hacks like that. Just google tim miller and you think….mmhh why did they hire him again? Deadpool was awsome. But that is it.
I agree with Peter Griffin, why do we need another Terminator?
That’s gold, Jerry…GOLD!
Didn’t Miller leave Deadpool 2 in part because Reynolds was given more control over the movie? And if so, did he really think Cameron would be better?
Every terminator movie should have a scene set in that timeline’s version of Tech Noir. Sometimes it’s a gritty dance club, sometimes it’s a farm-to-table restaurant, sometimes it’s a shitty, pretentious cocktail bar. But always: Tech Noir.
LT. TRAXLER: Just tell me where you are.SARAH CONNOR: I’m at this shitty, pretentious cocktail bar called Tech Noir.LT. TRAXLER: Never heard of it–what’s the address?
The fact that Traxler exactly knows Tech Noir in The Terminator is an unanswered question that makes me think the overworked cop has a particularly interesting place he goes to relax. Cuz that place does not look relaxing!
The not-fun explanation is that he knows it from work because there’s been criminal activity there. The better explanation is that he unwinds at the end of a long shift by going to a dance club where he’s 20 years older than the average patron and the only guy in the place rocking a plaid shirt / tweed blazer combo.
I mean, jokes aside, he’s a precinct lieutenant; if he’s any good at his job (and, Terminators notwithstanding, he seems to be) he would be familiar with many businesses in the area, especially places that are statistically more likely to attract police attention (like nightclubs, as opposed to, say, dry cleaners).
There are a few short deleted scenes that show Traxler realizing that Reese is telling the truth and giving his gun to Reese after he’s been shot at the police station. He’s a good, thoughtful cop, and Winfield and Henriksen are so perfect in those roles.
I love how Henriksen’s character keeps trying to tell ridiculous stories and Traxler keeps interrupting him.
Traxler and Vukovich could really have starred in their own movie. It wouldn’t have been nearly as good as The Terminator, but you can imagine a completely respectable ‘80s b movie about a couple of grizzled LAPD veterans who think they’re tracking a weird serial killer but end up in the middle of a time-travelling cyborg battle royale. (The Hidden with Kyle MacLachlan and Michael Nour is in that same ballpark.) I re-watched Terminator recently and was struck by the way their very lived-in cop back-and-forth grounds the first half of the movie.
SARAH CONNOR: It’s an underground hipster speakeasy, you wouldn’t know it.
It’d be like The Blue Oyster of the Terminator movies.
Deep cut, man.
Your post is 110% Sweetchuck approved.
What’s the problem with Blue Oyster Cult? “I’m On the Lamb, But I Ain’t No Sheep” is a helluva good song, for one thing.
I’ve certainly got no problem with BOC. Godzilla!
And with time travel, we can have a 50’s Tech Noir, an Old West Tech Noir, disco Tech Noir…
Discothèque Noir?
Steampunk Tech Noir.
Twist: it turns out Tech Noir IS Skynet.
All of these movies didn’t have nearly enough breakdancing Terminators.
“Negative. The T-1000 will not close down this rec center”
“Come with me if you want to dance.”
I’m pitching the Footloose/Terminator cross-over I didn’t know we needed.
I would love to see a Arnold T-800 lookalike in CyberPunk 2077. Possibly in one of those tech noir bars.
I haven’t seen the movie, and may not ever, but the part here about the future timeline is perplexing to me. Don’t the humans absolutely have to be winning the war in the future (because of John Connor) for anything at all in the Terminator timeline to make any sense at all? How could Tim Miller think that would be a good idea to change?
John Connor doesn’t matter in the new movie.
And that’s what turned off a lot of long-time fans.
He’s male, so he cannot matter to the survival of the human race.
and thus the reason why fans didn’t go flocking to see this movie…
I just watched The Sarah Conner Chronicles and the cliffhanger was John is sent into the future and the Resistance had no idea who he was. My assumption of the plans for a third season is that his father Reese became the leader of the resistence in John’s absense. This is a better idea than some other random person who was already an adult with no training when Sarah came along in Dark Fate.I don’t know. The movie was mediocre anyway. I don’t know why I can’t delete steampunk terminator I accidently posted here. Oh well. Enjoy.
What’s really funny is Dark Fate feels the closest to the tv show. With the divergent timelines and factions fighting over a war that shouldn’t even exist. I really like the Sarah Conner Chronicles but also like how experimental the main movies became. In the end you just shouldn’t worry about continuity and just have fun with the crazy concept of it all.
That’s what I liked on rewatching TSCC. I didn’t remeber that it was possible all of the time travelers were coming from different futures which might explain why so many terminators were coming back with so many different objectives. All the terminators coming back in Dark Fate didn’t really have an explanation. I guess we were meant to learn more in the sequels that will never happen just like afrter Salvation and and Genysis. I only saw Dark Fate once. I should probably rewatch it.Some guy’s blog I once found reviewed all the extended universe media and evaluated all the diverted timelines and the like and how they may have lined up or how they may have contradicted each other. It was pretty good fun. Reviews from my couch – http://reviewsfrommycouch.com/category/terminator/
This version of the timeline has a different AI Apocalypse happen, as Skynet really was defeated in T2 by destroying the remains of the T-800. So maybe they’re referring to the new Bad Future where John Connor isn’t important?
On The Sarah Connor Chronicles TV show the finale ended with a cliff hanger where John got sent into the future and he met resistance fighters who had never heard of John Connor before and then that was the end of the TV series.So he went into the future and apparently never came back in whatever discombobulated new timeline they introduced so nobody knew of him but we should suppose that somebody else rose up to be the fearless leader they needed in John’s place.
I mean I guess somebody else could eventually do something if there wasn’t somebody already doing it.
I thought the premise in T3 that the terminator had a secondary objective to take out John Connor’s lieutenants. I would guess that they could be the heirs apparent.I don’t know why Skynet wouldn’t just destroy the time displacement device after sending a terminator through.
Even outside of them.
How exactly does a t800 product of skynet come back and kill him if its ended? You know damn well the only reason this mesh plot was made was to present a new gender switch trilogy for the younger audience. Pro tip if you wanna excite diehard fans and get them to come back to the movies make it nastolgic AF After hearing all the Names returning I was ready with my wallet to see it day one. After its plot was leaked I was meh AF I’ll still see it but It wont show in the box office for sure.If you wanna make money Create something new. Or at least tweak it substantially like a grittier version like Batman did If you wanna really make money target toddlers to age 8 parents take kids to movies becaause we remember the excitement and experience before the age of leaks, piracy and 4 month dvd releases decimated profits at the box office.Teens are not stupid they know how to pirate it isnt hard you cant profit by making movies to cater to only that demographic.Tldr version: stop rewriting plots of classics that diehard nastolgic will see in theatres and then be surprised they dont show up and new generations dont care about classics it’s all dated to them. They can never appreciate how amazing the effects were in T2 at that time and have grown up with their own favorites
Perhaps he was planning a trilogy? So drag out the whole story into an arc.
They were hoping to do a Trilogy. And Triologies suck especially when planned for at the start.
For the time travel gambit to be a desperate, last-ditch ploy by the AI, yes. As I recall, Dark Fate never states explicitly that the humans were on the verge of winning; we’re to assume events similar to the last day of Skynet played out again. That assumption could be undermined in the inevitable sequel.
If anything, the only future scenes we see in Dark Fate are the humans comprehensively getting their asses kicked every single time. Also, those scenes are quite inferiorly rendered compared to Salvation from 10 years earlier.
That was one of the problems. The new John Connor just seemed to be a random leader which makes no sense why the AI would take such a huge risk to do especially if they had won.
Maybe because they’ve tried and failed at that formula three times.
But honestly, when a movie continues to fail, I like to think of ways that I, a person no asked, would make it better.
That’s a good point actually. Instead of John Connor, there’s now a new leader of the future war whom Not-Skynet goes to the trouble of sending a Terminator back in time to kill. If this leader is not winning the future war, there’s no point in all these time-travel shenanigans.Seems to me like the problem is, the entire Terminator concept from the 1st movie is a self-contained story. If the Terminator kills John/whoever, Skynet wins and humanity is wiped out. If the Terminator is defeated, John/whoever destroys Skynet and the war is won. Either way, there’s no more room for sequels – which I think is what Miller is really talking about.
Seems to me like the problem is, the entire Terminator concept from the 1st movie is a self-contained story. This. If they want to make sequels then they should have been about the future war. about the fight to send the terminator back and about the resistance finally over coming skynet…instead they keep trying to retcon and change it….T3 was not a great movie but at least it kept the story going…
Precisely. If the humans are losing in the future, Skynet is fine and doesn’t send any robots back in time, and there is no movie. Especially because sending a killer robot back could just theoretically give the humans early access to advanced forms of weaponry.
Because the machines accomplished their mission by going back in time.
Because, as Miller says, “humans winning and they keep on winning” isn’t exciting or interesting or helpful from a plot standpoint. The humans winning explained the original Terminator… it doesn’t support anything after that.
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It is truly baffling how clueless Cameron and the rest of the lot are. Why do they think there are enough people that still give two craps about this 30-year-old franchise to warrant more movies?You blew your wad by T3 (which I thought was pretty decent btw). After that? I’m sorry, but, you haven’t built a universe or mythology that would make enough people care about repeated visits to this world. This is not Star Wars or Marvel-10999.Just let it die already.
Post Apocalyptic Robot Metal Fatigue; people are just Terminatored out ..(Although that fan made Tech Com 2029 game looks great..)
It wasn’t that bad, but Linda Hamilton had really bad dialogue and she never was a very good actress anyway.
It wasn’t bad. It had Cameron-esque bad dialogue, but it was serviceable. It just needed to be brilliant in order to erase the damage done by Genisys, so unfortunately, “It doesn’t suck!” isn’t enough.
It was a very solid Terminator movie, easily the best sequel since T2, but that isn’t saying much, and is the problem itself, too many bad sequels killed the franchise. Also, Sarah Connor Chronicles was fine, bring it back you cowards!
Honestly, I’d rather have a sequel to Alita than another Terminator or Avatar film. Gunnm/Battle Angel Alita is still one of the better ‘combat cyborg’ settings out there and I’d love to see the craziness of the Last Order storyline in full CG.
As for Dark Fate… it basically just followed all the same plot points all the previous Terminator films have. Time traveling evil Terminator wants to kill future leader of the resistance and an equally time traveling soldier/reprogrammed terminator is sent back to stop it. Salvation is the only film to go against the trend but even that was held back by the apparent need for the ‘good’ Terminator to sacrifice itself because of plot induced stupidity.
Genisys really miscast it’s two leads, and the marketing gave away the big twist long before the movie even came out. Emilia Clarke just wasn’t convincing as Sarah Conner as even when she is trying to be tough, she came off more adorable than a tough. Trying to get Jai Courtney to be a male lead just doesn’t work either as his best tough guy role is probably his sinister Jack Reacher character who had the added bonus of being the muscle to Herzog’s menace. Genisys would go on to waste a great T-1000 casting, reveal the John Conner twist way too early, and completely ignore that it essentially made it so that there is a Human-form Skynet that can time travel and turn Resistance Members into Super-Terminators in order to go with the standard “We must prevent the birth of another Skynet in our current time” plot.
Honestly, bring back The Sarah Conner chronicles. That ended on a great spot to continue the franchise. After multiple movies and a TV show with the T-800’s series growing
beyond their programming when left active for long periods of time and
how it’s heavily implied that the technologically backwards jump from T-1000 to T-X was at least partially because
T-1000’s left active too long were more likely to turn against Skynet’s programming on their own, I really think they could’ve taken the franchise to another path. The idea of Skynet basically making it’s own Skynet situation fits thematically. Plus a future set film/show about a three way war between the Human Resistance, Skynet and it’s ‘solid’ Terminators, and a third faction of advanced ‘free’ Terminators with their own goals would be a far better source of drama and sci-fi shenanigans.
she came off more adorable than a tough.
Lol (it’s true). But I didn’t mind her casting too much- partly because I really like Emilia Clarke, and partly because I think it could have worked. I feel she does somewhat evoke a young Linda Hamilton; The problem was she is closer to the more innocent waitress version of Sarah Connor, yet they were going for the older, hardened T2 version, completely forgetting that version is informed by a hints of madness and paranoia, which Clarke didn’t (and maybe can’t) bring to the role. I wasn’t a whole fan of her being “raised” by the T-800, either.
My biggest problem with Salvation is actually an aesthetic one. It’s an incredibly “ugly” looking Terminator movie to me, losing a lot of the sleek sci-fi imagery, for a more grounded, grungy style. Cameron very specifically laid out the dark war-torn future of this franchise, that was a hellscape of laser beams and endless night. This looked nothing like that, going more for a cross between Transformers and Mad Max. I hated the bright desert setting. It doesn’t help that Christian Bale is wasted as John Connor. He’s never particularly intersting, and basically a supporting character in his own movie.But both of those sequels swung for the fences with radical new ideas, which is more than can be said for Rise of the Machines, the most formulaic of the sequels (though I haven’t seen Dark Fate yet, which I’m hearing also feels formulaic). If it wasn’t for T3’s ending, it probably wouldn’t be worth talking about at all. Even the concept of a female terminator is done better in the tv show. And I’m doubly mad at it for turning Claire Danes off from doing franchise movies. But I’ll give it this over its successors: it has good, action scenes. Does this series remember it used to have good actions scenes?
Too many jokes about how she couldn’t believe Reese was the guy who would father her child.
I’m pretty cis-hetero male but I would do Michael Biehn Kyle Reese. Not boring, mcboring who’s name I can’t remember he’s so boring.
To be fair, I feel like a lot of fans of this franchise forget that Sarah was a paranoiac and kind of a maniac in T2.
When the main character in all of the Terminator film gets killed off then yeah I just terminated Dark Fate. No thank you stupid story and stupid plot
Agreed
Here’s my take for what it’s worth.They spent far too much money on and wrote a story that was far too much a carbon copy of all that went before. There was literally parts where it looked like old names were crossed out (Skynet) and new ones written in (Legion). Same with you know who at the start. Except we weren’t at all invested in the replacement because no build up in the mythos.Ever other iteration (the TV series of course), Rise of the Machines, Salvation and heaven forbid even Genisys at least tried some new things.
Yeah the whole Skynet=Legion thing killed my interest completely. All we can hope is that Linda Hamilton gets more badass roles out of this.
Do directors have much say over their movie’s trailers? Because that trailer – with it’s cliched bad ass hero walking away from an explosion, blah, blah – was stooooooopid. It effectively said: “Nothing new here.”
I think you’re right—the marketing for this film was terrible. They really needed top notch marketing to have any hope of breaking even and instead they gave us reasons NOT to see the movie—“There’s nothing new here, you might as well stay home,” was what I got out of the trailers. I don’t think directors generally get any say over the trailers (case in point: Suicide Squad had a trailer that made it seem all peppy and fun, when Ayer’s first edit was reportedly more gritty; rumor has it the studio asked him to re-edit it to make it more like the trailer).
Suicide Squad the movie was actually given to the people who edited the trailer to re-edit it after the positive response to the trailer (and presumably negative reactions to the original cut with test audiences). I don’t think Ayer’s original version would have been good (I think he’s a hack), but it probably wouldn’t have been the discombobulated nonsense that resulted from having a trailer house re-edit an entire movie.
Personally, I have enjoyed all of the Terminator films.Star Wars? Can’t be bothered.
Rogue One is great flick. I’d check that out if you like the original trilogy.
Rogue one is fantastic! I think it’s better than Return of the Jedi. Although, it’s difficult to not put any movie with the Emperor in it at the top. But the Ewoks were so stupid that I demoted it.
Yes. For a fellow Penguin I will rent a DVD. I just can’t keep up with all of the new movies and the TV shows. Feel like I’m being Marvelized :O
If possible, rent it on VHS for optimal experience
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wrong.
If this movie came out in the summer I feel it would have done slightly better. I know there’s more competition but there has to be at least one weekend it could have been the top pick. It’s hard for me to want to go to the movies in cold/shitty weather unless someone else is dragging me. In the summer I’m wrangling up everyone to go to the theater. The last time I went to the movies in November was to see Doctor Strange.
How “fatigued” were people after the Star Wars prequels? Yet the first two entries in the latest trilogy have had little trouble devouring obscene quantities of cash around the world.
Crazy shit take: the success of Joker is going to get the dumbfuck execs to wait a couple of years and then push for a Skynet origin story, which would essentially be 2014 flop Transcendence with a Terminator IP slapped on it.
These movies haven’t been shit since T2, but I’m all for them making more sequels if only because it will give James ‘I Own More Denim Shirts Than Jay Leno’ Cameron that many more opportunities to stick his foot in his mouth telling everyone how great the next one’s going to be. Then, it sucks and bombs, and once again, ol’ Jim looks like the true asshole that he is.I always get such a giggle when that happens.
I’m sure James Cameron really feels the burn right now. You got him.
Man, I’m really feeling the burn right now. You got me.
damn, the wit of this comeback
I can barely keep up with you, Shecky.
It’s pretty obvious why and how it failed – they made Sarah Connor a failure for no good reason and killed off JC to do it.
So, Miller wanted to retcon 30 years of Terminator movies to make things grimdark simply for the sake of making them grimdark? Say what you want about Cameron, he wasn’t wrong for rallying against this.
“So, Miller wanted to retcon 30 years of Terminator movies to make things grimdark simply for the sake of making them grimdark?”
No. And that’s a f*cking stupid-ass take.
I haven’t seen this one yet, but agree with Mr. Cameron, it needs to have the humans doing well in the future. That’s why T2 was so magical.
I saw Terminator 2 when I was really young, like… when it came out. And, since then, I always think “Oh, a new Terminator movie. This one I wanna see.” And, never saw anything but Terminator 2 that one time. And, this seem to be the general feeling around Terminator movies. Everyone is hyped about it and it ends up being just that “I’ll see it someday” movie.
#1 reason:
you spoil arnold in the trailer.#2 reason:you let word get out that ed furlong was in it.#3 reason:you could have had sarah connor be a surprise too.
you ruined all your surpises.
this is what happens with this franchise. everything awesome about it is spoiled in trailers.
Kind of funny that he left Deadpool 2 because he didn’t have enough control.
No defense for Salvation, but I liked T3 and Genisys. The former had an incredibly bleak and ballsy ending that I admired, and the latter played with elements of the previous movies in fun ways. Haven’t seen Dark Fate yet.
Man, Avatar’s gonna bomb hard
terminator as a franchise has one problem: the good films are too old for the younger audience and the newer films are mediocre at best. just let the franchise die already, it clearly doesn’t work on the big screen anymore
I think it all started, honestly, with T2. Once the machines got more advanced with liquid metal polyalloy or whatever it was called, every subsequent bad guy had to be increasingly more complex and “indestructible”. Lokken could turn her arm into a laser cannon; Salvation had water robots and motorcycle robots; Genisys took the overdue leap into nanobots.
I haven’t seen Dark Fate. I just don’t care about it. And this is coming from someone who liked Salvation and saw some good parts in Genisys.
I still care about the Terminator movies and liked this one, save for a few small things.
imagine how stupid this movie must look if you’re even 25.
it’s the 6th terminator movie, but none of the terminator movies that have come out in your entire lifetime have ‘counted’. it stars someone who was governor your entire life, is the return of an actress you know from nothing, and is the continuation of a movie from 1991.
what possible investment could you have in this franchise if you have no nostalgia for it? it must look so bad and dumb.
Hey I know, let’s make the first two Terminator films pointless. Great job, Dark LAME!