The White Lotus gives us a heady dose of male and female bonding
And between all the battle-of-the-sexes rhetoric, Aubrey Plaza proves she's this season's MVP
TV Reviews Daphne
There is an elegance to the construction of every episode of The White Lotus: Sicily. As with his first season, writer-director Mike White has made it so that each new hour of his series takes us through one full day in the lives of the guests at the namesake hotel. This allows every new entry to have a contained quality to it; there’s no stretching or compressing of time, just its gentle march forward. This also means we always begin anew. It’s morning after all, a time for new beginnings but also a time to reassess what’s come to pass.
Wanting to wipe her slate clean, for instance, Harper (Aubrey Plaza, the show’s MVP this season) decides she’s going to be good. Really good. Daphne (Meghann Fahy) and Cameron (Theo James) won’t know what hit them when she’s becomes, quite suddenly, all sunny. And it does throw them off. But mostly because Ethan’s opinionated and arguably snobbish wife can’t really do vapid chit chat in any kind of natural way. Seeing her try is entertaining enough—especially once she entraps herself into spending the afternoon (and the night!) with Daphne over at Noto. It’s all a cage of her own making and one which allows the show to finally let the two women bond as the two men are left to their own devices.
As the thematic echoes of the season become ever clearer, this episode further zeroed in on the “battle of the sexes” rhetoric that has pervaded its previous installments. We’ll get to Daphne’s admission that she knows Cameron’s friends are basically sociopaths, that she lashes out in order to maintain some balance in her relationship, and her whole “I feel sorry for men” monologue (which: oof!), not to mention Harper’s “I think I was tripping out on being a woman” memory of being high—all moments which acknowledged the way they each have vexed relationships with their own gender. But that’s because we have to first talk about the intergenerational conversation around “modern masculinity” that Bert (F. Murray Abraham), Dominic (Michael Imperioli), and Albie (Adam DiMarco) have while on their day trip through famous locations seen in The Godfather.
Did I cringe when Albie outright told his grandfather that he loved that Francis Ford Coppola film because he was “nostalgic for the solid days of the patriarchy”? Maybe. But then again, both he and Portia have this way of talking in “discourse-speak” that I eventually let myself, instead, be awed by the thorny conversation the three men engage in. Or rather, that Bert and Albie engage in, all while Dominic, bashful and shameful in equal measure, mostly keeps to himself. And they distill a question that The White Lotus clearly wants to excavate: are those “male fantasies” The Godfather and the like depict “natural” (all men want this!) or are they designed to socialize men into doing so?
The schism is presented here as a generational issue, what with Albie seemingly being on his own against his set-in-his-ways grandfather and his cheating father (who, as we’ve seen, has had all the fun with Lucia and Mia while on this trip alone). But then White lets us see how this plays out between Ethan and Cameron. The two college friends don’t explicitly chat about these same concerns, but the subtext of their wild, raucous night without their wives similarly leaves us wondering whether all men want to live out the fantasy Cameron gives himself permission to indulge in—namely, as Dominic had before him, spend a lovely evening with Lucia.
Even hearing Daphne explain how she knows Cameron’s cheated on her but that she refuses to see herself as a victim—that she somewhat understands his predicament—suggests that the two of them subscribe to this notion that men, maybe, can’t help themselves (“Cameron’s naughty like a little boy,” as she puts it, infantilizing and excusing him in equal measure). Or, as in Cameron’s most laughable attempt to excuse/validate/explain his urges, they understand that monogamy was invented to control the middle class…which would be a better argument if Daphne were somehow privy to the ways her seemingly monogamous marriage is being broken apart in the name of some fanciful radical politics against bourgeois life.
Harper wouldn’t dream of making such pronouncements. Not when Ethan is such an open book. (He’s honest to a fault, she says.) That is, of course, until all of her calls remain unanswered and the hedonistic ways of Cameron threaten to unravel the strong if rather unsexy bond the two have been building for years. Will Harper let her suspicions get the best of her? Will Albie’s nice boy shtick land with Portia after all? Is Tanya ready to face what may well be the inevitable end of her marriage? And, perhaps more importantly, will we see more of Valentina in the episodes to come? We’ll have to wait ’til morning to find out.
Stray observations
- When do we think directors realized they could shoot scenes with televisions in them using green screens and insert later whatever they aimed to have playing there? I know it’s relatively recent (and it goes hand in hand with green-screened smartphone screens, too!) and yet it always drives me insane. There’s a flattened look to the entire thing; no graininess, no reflection… just a pristine image being emitted from a lifeless appliance. I hope one day we dispense with it altogether, continuity and petty filmmaking workarounds be damned.
- Am I alone in thinking Tanya’s storyline is a bit… thin this season? Maybe there was no way of topping last season’s juicy bits. And Coolidge does make the most out of every scene she’s in (seeing her interact with the tarot reader alone gave us plenty to enjoy), but I keep wanting to spend more time with these other characters instead. But maybe there’s a slow burn to her arc this time around that may well come to pay off. Greg’s bound to be back soon enough.
- I can’t decide whether I love Portia’s entire wardrobe (those bucket hats, the “stussy” shirt, her “PROBLEMO” sweatshirt, her sleeveless pop art dress) in earnest or whether I love it as an ironic bit that makes me feel just slightly hip to Gen Z’s brazen disregard for the kind of minimalist chic I so tend to gravitate towards (see: Harper’s A+ wardrobe). But you have to admit the costuming choices made by the show’s wardrobe department are as eye-catching as anything else.
- Speaking of below-the-line folks who deserve their flowers: Cristobal Tapia de Veer and Kim Neundorf’s score has just been deliciously sumptuous. Operatic and intimate in equal measure, their music has given the new season a distinct flavor from season one, even as it clearly exists within the same aural universe. Just divine.
- Of course Cameron wouldn’t bat an eye when discussing insider trading (“next time!” as he tells Ethan); the way you do one thing is the way you do everything.
- F. Murray Abraham mouthing “prostitutes” will live rent-free in my head. As will the sight of Coolidge’s Tanya crying, and of Meghann Fahy’s Daphne putting on her sunglasses in tacit dissent.
- Line of the week? “Let’s fun!”
125 Comments
that last scene…with Harper in profile, from a distance, on the bed in that room — it could have been just as easily 2000 years ago as it was last year. Not sure if the director intended it to be that way, but if so, well done.
It’s not “solid days.” Albie said “salad days.”
Yeah I had my captions on and the caption said “solid days” and I was like “that’s not right.” Weird
But those days were so solid, bro!
Thanks: I also pointed this out. Pedants, unite!!
I’m the sucker who thought Cameron and Daphne were being written against type and had the more emotionally healthy and loving marriage. The last two episodes I thought they weren’t particularly douchy, but this episode Cameron surely was. Though I think Daphne’s monologue about the insecurity and miserableness of men is kind of true (and I say that as a progressive more like Harper than Cameron) and which White also kind of believes. But of course being a woman in this world is very hard too—just witness the hilarious scene like out of a horror movie where all the village guys star at Plaza. Fantastic costuming on her and composition of that scene where’s she’s against the wall. Very Italian sensual. But poor Daphne, and Meghann Fahy did terrific and heartbreaking acting talking about how she deals with Cameron’s assholishness.
White is writing Mia in an interesting way. I groaned when Lucia in the morning said “you fell asleep and didn’t even sleep with him”, like White was trying to clunkily keep her pure, even thought she was fine with being part of that threesome in Dominic’s room. But she does kiss Ethan later, so I think she’s deceiving herself that she’s not a sex worker (not that there’s anything wrong with it) and will eventually go all the way, maybe with the piano singer.
I think Valentina was the hero of this episode. She buys food for the city’s stray cats, services the outre demands of her guests. Plus I thought she was gonna hook up with Isabella (why not make each season’s concierge gay?).And the final shot was also excellently framed and shot.
I think Daphne flips the loneliness of men argument around though when she describes the psychopaths her husband works with (and mitigates her husbands own dangerous tendencies). Men have created this predatory structure and any sense of loneliness is ultimately their creation, the women need to move in herds to survive. Valentina and her lady staff member, Simona/Mia, Harper/Daphne all offer flickers of connection within their own little herd.
It’s true that men, certainly more than women, have created the world they find themselves lost and miserable in. Toxic masculinity (and I have no problem with the term) has been accepted for far too long as how men should act, and many boys had no other model culturally put upon them, so they could not do anything else but conform. Plus, in America, our individualist, prideful ethos where it’s frowned upon to ask for help and admit vulnerability.
Albie and Portia’s stories are interesting. White isn’t confirming the stereotype of “nice guys finish last” by having Portia want a more aggressive, take-charge kind of guy. It’s a false choice: a guy can be decent and still take charge in the bedroom.
I think Albie and Portia are interesting only in that Albie believes he is acting differently because he is using different language. Regardless, he is still constantly calculating how to have sex with Portia even if its in a more politically correct way. It’s funny the rejection people have towards Ethan and Harper, when they seem to be the only man and woman on the show who despite not having some deep sexual relationship, have a very human one. It feels healthy in its flaws compared to Daphne and Cameron’s performative relationship.
I wouldn’t be too harsh on Albie. Portia does clearly like him, and, as she said tonight, did want him to go up to her room. But I have sympathy for the kid since he doesn’t want to be like his sex addicted father and mistreat women. While unhappy Portia, in Italy, wants a guy to ravish her. Both are sympathetic and have good reasons for their desires.
Up until tonight’s episode, I wouldn’t have thought Daphne and Cameron’s relationship was performative. They did seem genuinely loving toward each other and happy. Now we haven’t gotten a good sense of why Cameron cheats, but based on what he told Ethan about the world the rich live in, I assume once he made it really wealthy, the norm was to do that kind of thing and he, insecure like Ethan is now, followed along and rationalized it later. Cameron is basically Ethan’s Ghost of Rich Person Future if the latter isn’t careful.
Portia clearly is indifferent to Albie. She couldn’t be less attracted to him, really. And he does make her uncomfortable. With so many women around, it makes no sense that he is so set on her. Maybe he sees her as this more vulnerable or “girl next door” type that he thinks suits him more. Meh, I’m not buying it
Portia and Albie’s dad are going to hook up, aren’t they?
He wants to be a knight in shining armor and she’s the princess in the tower (imprisoned by the evil witch). They have no chemistry whatsoever. Of course the main blame lies with Albie because he desperately tries to force her into a narrative she clearly has no interest in, but I’m a bit annoyed with Portia too, because suggestions like “You could even be a bit more aggressive” are useless. He’s simply not her type, and acting more aggressive clearly isn’t changing that and never will. But I guess Portia might be genuinely not self-aware enough to realize that – I mean Albie’s handsome enough, she might feel like she needs to justify to herself why he’s not doing it for her, and “too nice” is often used as a go-to-explanation in such cases.
I think there’s a pretty clear parallell to Harper – there’s no point in changing the way you act to please people if you are just not someone’s type. Just as Albie’s trying to be more assertive, Harper’s trying to be more agreeable – and both utterly fail to achieve the effect they desire. Maybe _because_it’s too obvious they’re just doing it for effect. (Although aren’t we all just doing it for effect? Isn’t Cameron aggressive because he wants to impress? Isn’t Daphne agreeable because she wants to be liked?) Or maybe because the people they want to win are just not all that into them.
Portia’s glances towards the ‘freezing nipple’ lad in the swimming pool tells me that if Albie doesn’t make a move soon – she might just submit to a bit of ‘toxic masculinity’ in order to relieve a certain itch.
I love your comments. Always. You are able to articulate exactly the takeaways I have. When I come down to the comments I feel the only thing I need to say is “yes, what ohnoray said.” Cheers!
hey, thanks! that’s very sweet, I feel commenting forces me to think about things lol, it’s my own process of processing what I watch.
Well said toxic masculinity is very much push and enforced on young men. We are taught early that you are either predator or prey and you must conform and act a predator or you will be prey. We are taught by, as you say, cultural models, to act a certain way. All the media we are shown show aggressive, do not take no or rejection, take charge men that get the girls. It is not good.
Enough with all this we shit. Everyone is different. I wish people would stop trying to put men in these shitty gendered boxes. It’s always all the negatives of the world come from men. Toxic this, Toxic that. All people are different, raised differently and learn different ideals from a host of different places. All people have to wade through positive and negative influences. It has nothing to do with gender. But, you can choose to learn the right lessons or wrong ones. That’s up to you.playsEven in this show, I feel like privilege plays more of a part in decisions being made than gender throughout the characters.
Congratulation on not being beaten and bullied for not conforming to other people’s ideal of masculinity. Congratulations on not being harasses, stalked, abused or raped by some guy not taking no for an answer. Congratulations for no suffering child abuse by a man that was taught men cannot show emotions other than rage and did not seek help because getting help is not masculine. There is a lot of harm done to both women and men by how we raise boys and men.
I honestly think the show is highlighting how all this gender-essentialist talk is used in self-serving ways, with ulterior motives. Cameron and Daphne need to make their pattern into something universal – to rope in the other couple for whatever scam they’re planning, or maybe just to feel better about themselves. And for grandpa and cheating dad too, it’s a way to escape accountability – they can’t help it, it’s in their nature. They all have a psychological need to buy into these narratives, and that explains their continuing power. It’s a lie just too useful to give up.
I agree that Albie and Portia’s stories are interesting, but I do think Portia does want that more aggressive, take-charge kind of guy. The first three episodes have seen Portia demand from the outset some casual sex—a romantic vacation tryst—and end up becoming an appendage of a man who she clearly finds increasingly unattractive. Albie is just constantly there, dragging her into a family dynamic she wants no part of and failing to pick up on her cues. What an awfully unromantic prospect.
Portia’s reaction to Albie’s tirade about the Godfather was telling—she didn’t bother to back him up at all. (And was I the only one expecting Bert to explicitly call out Albie’s attitude to Portia: “does this make you want to have sex with him? Kids these days.”)Albie is definitely going to either be one of the dead bodies or the killer.
I just don’t think Albie can be the decent guy who takes charge in the bedroom – not in this story world anyway. Whatever tingle Portia felt when she initially saw him, he extinguished with his rant about “The Godfather”. All feminist / patriarchal mindsets aside – he just came off as really whiny and annoying. Even his name is kind of emasculating. It’s not amazingly macho like Brock , or Mike , or something like that. 🙂
Italians have a tradition of naming the first son after the grandfather. Presumably Bert and Albie are both “Alberto”.
“I’m the sucker who thought Cameron and Daphne were being written against type and had the more emotionally healthy and loving marriage.” Me too!
There were signs that Cameron and Daphne’s marriage wasn’t so happy earlier either between Cameron flirting and teasing Harper, while Daphne sounded like she isn’t happy being a mother which all boiled to the surface this episode with Daphne admitting to taking drugs in order to deal with the stress of being a mother and tolerating Cameron’s flirting and cheating, while Cameron just brought out his inner womanizer the moment Daphne leaves.
On the flip side, we also see the conflict between Ethan and Harper. Harper trying her best to please Ethan by being nice to Cameron and Daphne and trying to look her sexiest but to no avail. And while Ethan won’t cheat on Harper, he doesn’t want to have sex with her either, so there is something going on there I hope this show examines further. And I don’t think Mia is deceiving herself. I think she just has an inhibited personality (not that there is another wrong with that either) and is just trying to be a good, loyal friend and caving into Lucia’s peer pressure. She thinks theres a better way to acheive her musical career and like you said, it’s through the piano singer.
Cameron and Daphne vs Harper and Ethan — there’s no winning couple there. Presumably Harper and Ethan are monogamous but look at them together. Disconnected. Ethan literally doesn’t even notice Harper on the bed when he returns from his run. Compare that to Cameron and Daphne who clearly have a messed up dynamic but are demonstrably and genuinely affectionate and having fun. Not really letting either dynamic off the hook but I think we’re being shown that just not technically cheating doesn’t mean your marriage is any healthier.
I did love the juxtaposition of Harper saying “men are lonely because they are hyper-competitive alpha jerks” with the cut to Ethan and Cam seeming to have a huge amount of sincere fun on jet skis BECAUSE they’re being competitive alpha jerks (racing, playing chicken, etc).
Re: the piano player: he may end up being the only person who genuinely cares for and is looking out for Mia, vis-a-vis his respect for her talent (clearly a genuine respect based on his reaction to her great performance in the previous episode).
Daphne really trying to convince herself that she does what she wants felt painful. And maybe to some degree she does, but it comes at a cost to the self aware Daphne vs the performance she has to put on for her husband. This episode felt dark, in a good way. I think Harper and Ethan both saw glimpses of a future that money brings and it feels almost inescapable.*I love Portia’s wardrobe, but I’m confused if she’s a millennial or gen z? Wardrobe says Gen Z, but her desperate devotion to her abusive boss says millennial.
I think she’s the oldest Gen Z where the generations bleed into each other. She probably had already graduated college and got into the working world before the “antiwork” movement got popular right before/during the pandemic.
She talks about having graduated from Chico State and that’s one reason she’s impressed by Albie being a Stanford grad. Though given Dom is a successful Hollywood producer, it’s entirely plausible that he bought Albie’s way in.
she’s painfully zoomer
Her and Albie both
I don’t read Portia’s devotion to Tanya as desperate in the millennial ladder-climber sense. She even says that she feels sorry for Tanya. Her devotion is more sympathetic in that sense. Portia is also realistic of her situation. She’s stuck in a foreign country where her boss is the only reason she’s there, or why she gets to basically do what she wants at the resort.
Portia, girl, you know you can go with Albie to his room and keep the image of the tattooed swimmer (“Mr. Sensitive Nips”) in your head, right? Just saying.
Why would literally anyone do that? She’s not actually WITH Albie, owes him nothing, and swimmer guy was making some obvious goo goo eyes at her. Go for the first draft!
I was thinking, “Danger, Ethan! Pyramid scheme?” when Cameron was talking about investing–even before Daphne compared Cameron’s business associates to Bernie Madoff.
Worse. Cameron’s gonna try and get him into crypto.
I feel just as cheated out of the tarot as Portia does. The fortune teller was getting very worked up about something! But what?
I was trying to see the cards.
The fortune teller uses the Marseilles deck and a pretty basic five card cross spread. Although the deck she holds out clearly contains 78 cards, every card she draws are among the major arcana (the 21 trumps). According to other people’s math the chance of this happening accidentally is 0.12%.
The cards are:
The Star (top of the cross)
The Moon / The Devil / The Fool inverted (middle of the cross)
The Chariot (bottom of the cross)
Star is drawn first, Devil second, Moon and Fool is not shown, then Chariot last. This is probably meaningless, but these spreads usually go middle-cross left to right, then top of the cross, then bottom of the cross. Just a detail.
The fortune teller points to The Devil and says “This card means deceit. He is being deceitful.” [Devil can absolutely mean deceit], then touches The Moon and says “This card is beauty, there is beauty in his life” [never heard anyone read the Moon as “beauty” in my life].
When Tanya pushes back she gets agitated and starts mumbling about “the subconscious” and her last proclamation, according to the subtitles, is “Madness will drive you to suicide!”, which is frankly a completely valid, if very dramatic, reading of the spread if you read like this:
Star meaning loss and abandonment, leading to the triumvirate
Moon, meaning madness/danger -> Devil, meaning violence and fatality -> Fool inverted meaning nothingness, nullity (the Fool is also associated with stepping off cliffs, by the way, although usually not literally)
all of which culminates in the Chariot, meaning revenge, or war, or even victory.
So the way I read the scene it’s either a charlatan putting on a show (newbie spread in the wrong order with a deck full of nothing but major arcana) and leaning into the gypsy act when Tanya is having none of it, OR she’s very a true believer, knows how improbable the draw is, tries to read it in a relatively harmless way (he’s in love with someone else) but then sees the bigger picture and realizes this lady is completely messed up.
Either way if Tanya ends up jumping off a cliff to get back at Greg, Mike White just told us.
Or it’s just a funny scene on tv and we shouldn’t read too much into it.
The “all Italian men in the area now look at Harper” mini-scene seemed like an exaggeration of what was actually happening–to show how Harper was feeling–because when Daphne came out of the store, only a couple of men were actually looking at the women.
Obviously there weren’t suddenly 96 dudes spawning from the ether.
My wife went to Italy after HS graduation. When we watched that scene she said “that’s EXACTLY what it’s like!”
It’s also like that in many other countries… India, Turkey…
I also liked the parallel scene of trying-to-recover-sex-addict Dom being surrounded by dozens of hot women at the bar, trying not to stare, fighting off his addiction.
Albie’s pick for best movie?
Something pretentious and boring
Midsommar.
😆
Very wonderful
I appreciate that there is a more complex and nuanced story being told here around all of these relationships, and that White, so far, doesn’t seem to be judging or taking sides but merely presenting his characters and stories and allowing us to make what we will from them. I do agree that Tanya’s story is much less interesting that the others, and that Ethan and Harper are at the center of the story. I do think that it might be Bert and Greg that are the bodies at the end, though something makes me feel that Mia isn’t safe.
I think Greg’s secret lover-conspirator story might make things more interesting in the coming eps.
Cameron and Daphne are being set up as grifters, right? They want Ethan to “invest” his money with Cameron; and later Daphne gives Madoff as an example of the sort of person Cameron works with. An expectation to be subverted..?
I don’t think it’s a grift as much as just doing business. It’s the job of finance guys (and the industry is mostly guys) to get rich people to invest with them, and that includes friends and family.But it does seem that Cam is not nearly as flush as assumed. He’s been waiting to get Ethan alone; This is a sales trip for him. Getting drunk and screwing hookers is part of the bonding ritual that Cam hopes will end with Ethan writing him a check.
I’d rather like it if that turns out to be the case, because then it’s not: these people specifically are terrible, but: _this is what the rich are like_.
Bonding ritual, or blackmail
We figured that the whole girl’s overnight in Noto was something Cam and Daphne cooked up to allow Cam additional one-on-one time to coerce Ethan on the investments. Dom smoldering over the boys scooping up on his previous night’s “dates” was also a bit concerning – lots of candidates to become “the body”.
We got to see the more human and real side of Valentina this episode and that she’s turning out to be the most relatable person here. That she’s just seemingly so far overworked, stressed, and unappreciated; everyone, between the locals to the hotel guests are just a pest to her and not worth it, as she would rather spend her lunches alone with stray cats because terrible people everywhere grate on her so much, until Isabella comes and gives her the ultimate form of validation and displays admiration for her. The only person so far that does that and that actually makes her day.
I really hope we do get more and more time with her this season.
I loved that brief scene of Valentina, with two kittens and no dialogue.
Agreed. The little joys of working and living in a place like Taormina: which I have visited it is truly as stunning as the show depicts.
I keep seeing ads all over the place for this show. Is this a show about rich people having affairs and being assholes? I don’t see the attraction of such a show.
No – that’s “Succession.”
It’s a murder mystery. We already know someone died, but not who, and the show goes back to show us who and what. American tourists in Italy. What can go wrong?
I like White’s use of foreshadowing. It helps build tension as the onion is peeled back week-by-week. Too many high-end showrunner-writers seem to think they are above any conventional story-formatting devices and the productions suffer.
White has effectively set up the upcoming grift attempt by Cameron – and the possibility that he’s actually broke (notice he can’t pay for the hookers next week).
He has set up Albie going full-incel when he likely catches Portia going down on Swimming Pool Guy. Those two ro three might be the bodies as the end. He referenced jumping off a cliff earlier, so that’s hanging out there too.I’m still thinking White is pulling a somewhat sloppy M.Night Shyalman with Greg being a ghostly delusion. That was bolstered this week by the Tarot Card Reader freaking out at “something” about the husband, and Portia’s ensuing ambiguous response to Cooledge saying Greg was gone (or something like that). Greg also mysteriously comes and goes without direct interaction with any other people – pretty much just existing within Cooledge’s viewpoint, or Portia’s viewpoint, who would know that Greg is gone, but that Cooledge is lost in a delusion. Not as clean as “Sixth Sense”, but it’s in a mysteriously similar vein.
This week definitely picked up the slack left from last week.
This was such an intriguing point that I went back and re-watched part of the first episode. When Tanya gets off the boat, Valentina says that her husband has already checked in. Valentina escorts her to the hotel lobby and says, “Here is your missing husband.” So even though Greg doesn’t speak directly with Valentina, how could one explain that she references him, and appears to look at him, although she does look confused? I suppose Portia could have let Valentina in on the “act?”
Valentina also takes their picture on a Vespa the next day. And given how blunt she has been shown to be, there’s no way she’d react like nothing was weird if Tanya asked her to take pictures of her and her husband and there was no one else there.
I do think the hotel staff knows she’s a crazy, rich, regular on their program and has been instructed to humor her insanity. ie) don’t rent HER a Vespa.
Valid point.
This was such an intriguing point that I went back and re-watched part of the first episode. When Tanya gets off the boat, Valentina says that her husband has already checked in. Valentina escorts her to the hotel lobby and says, “Here is your missing husband.” So even though Greg doesn’t speak directly with Valentina, how could one explain that she references him, and appears to look at him, although she does look confused? I suppose Portia could have let Valentina in on the “act?”
The later scene with the Vespa definitely implied the staff was instructed to watch the crazy lady and not rent HER a Vespa, even though the script clearly implied Greg was renting it. I’m still inclined to think White is doing this (questionably) – but he ain’t no M. Night Shylaman as to pulling it off. Otherwise it’s just all too weird to ultimately only be a poor plot device to get Portia to Italy, just so she can set off an insecure Incel in Albie by doing the Swimming Pool guy. Without Greg there’s not much to Tanya’s story except sleeping and blubbering incoherently.
Eh…that Greg thing is a real stretch and it doesn’t work well at all IMO. The first thing Valentina tells Tanya in the pilot is that her husband is already at the hotel and Portia knowing but not ever saying anything to Albie when she spends half of their conversations complaining about her job would frankly be super lame and contrived. It’s the type of twist that would land horribly and be entirely pointless. Because we already know Tanya’s not all there.
Also, Greg speaks to the restaurant host.
The host+Greg happens only with Tanya in the shot, and his discussion with Greg alone has Greg weirdly just out of scene. So much weirdness. Greg and the waitress however is shot completely normal IMO, so there’s that. But Greg and Tanya’s screaming “fight” doesn’t even seem to register with any other diners – and Tanya exits the scene alone looking at Portia.
I agree it doesn’t work well, but then IMO anything with her doesn’t work well. I just don’t find her character interesting or entertaining, whether I like her or not. But if not for this bizarre possibility, what is the point of all of it? He leaves and she sleeps all week?
I’d go as far to say that it doesn’t work at all from reading some other comments.I don’t think Tanya’s role is that much different from S1 – she’s comedic relief and a wild card whose ridiculous behavior directly or indirectly affects the other guests. At minimum, she’s the reason why Portia is in Sicily at all.
I never found most of her shtick to be funny in either season, but some writers to the forum are in absolute stitches over every scene she’s in. Mehhh…. Does White let her adlib stuff?
I don’t like her that much either, there were a few times I laughed at her scenes in S1 but she’s mostly annoying to me. But based on comments on articles or reviews, seems like a lot more people do find her character hilarious.Which is fine, people often like different stuff than I do.
I don’t subscribe to this theory, but could it work if Greg was just ashes in a vase?
My wife thought the same thing.
Yeah it’s a fun and interesting theory – but you have to imagine that Portia would say “oh and also my boss speaks to an invisible man and makes me hide from him”
oh damn. This is interesting. Now I’m going to have to go back from the top and watch and see if you’re right.
Greg being a ghost is intriguing, if a bit confusing because there’s nothing remotely idealized about their interactions. They seem incredibly fraught and her tantrums don’t really feel like grief. Also, the whole “he was a ghost the whole time” trope is a bit worn out. I honestly hope you’re wrong on that note.
To my point about Greg; I agree it’s pretty ridiculous storyline, but it’s playing out so weird that I could that “Sixth Sense” cliché being played out here, but more sloppily. I forgot about the desk introduction, so that would NOT work if she is relating to him physically by name and presence, but most other encounters are still ambiguous enough to be explained as POV differentiation. I meant to go back and watch the post Vespa ride restaurant encounter with the waitress, because Tanya oddly enters the restaurant alone behind him, and Portia’s POV might of them include him since she knows what’s up with Tanya’s state of mind. The manager seemed overly panicked at “them” riding the Vespa, but if was actually only Tanya’s ditsy self, the hotel would have been courting disaster and reasonably panicked at her riding off on a hillside road. And I don’t think Greg speaks directly to anyone upon mounting the Vespa (or leaving in the limo for Denver FTM) but it could go either way and just be written sloppily if they’re doing the ghost thing. I don’t know how they explain two helmets if that’s the case either…The bizarre reaction of the Tart Card Reader, however, again falls in favor of Greg being a deceased illusion. The TCR conveniently didn’t explain her terror -as if to hide a plot point or reveal – otherwise, why not script a response to Tanya? And Portia’s statement was, again, ambiguous as to Greg’s status. The TCR scene is like the cliché’ where some character gets the “answer to everything” – and then pulls the “I have to go. I’ll tell you later.” bullshit on the protagonist.
So I think it’s still a possibility, but one that could be vivisected upon review compared to how “Sixth Sense” pulled it off. Frankly, I would have preferred they had just replaced Tanya with something new. Doing this to justify her return this season is really a stretch, but if not this, why did they even bother? I mean, Greg goes home to Denver and Portia watches her sleep for the rest of the week? WTH?
AND, she brought Portia. Why in the world would you do that on a vacation with your husband? And, I do not believe Portia and Greg ever directly encountered each other – which is ridiculous for your wife’s constant personal assistant.
The hostess takes both helmets from Greg, but she doesn’t say anything. I suppose you could say that this is only happening from Tanya’s point of view.I have sort of forgotten, but didn’t Tanya go back to the hotel by herself and Greg rode the Vespa? If there is no Greg, I guess that could be explained also.I’ll keep an open mind about this possibility, but I hope Greg doesn’t turn out to be a ghost.
He WAS supposed to be some kind of terminally ill too, from Season 1. They discussed that this week, but who knows what that is necessarily supposed to mean if he’s dead or alive. Maybe all her money couldn’t save him and she went crazy from grief.
i appreciate how locked in you are on this theory, but there’s just no way.
I don’t think it’s a GOOD idea, but I just see disparities in how Greg is handled in the world versus all the other characters, and I don’t know what else makes that weirdness reasonable in the story. But then it’s only one storyline of several they have to write, film ON SITE, and edit, so they don’t have time to Bruce Willis that concept to an accurate inch of its life. So I’m still leaning towards thinking they’re doing it – just not really well, which is understandable. At least following that line gives me SOME reason to pay attention to Tanya scenes whereas I might be reading my phone to avoid being annoyed all the time.
listen man – ultimately it’s YOUR idea and YOU’RE standing by it, so you must, in some way, deep down, think it’s a good idea haha.i don’t see anything happening in the show that could possibly suggest the conclusion you’re drawing (unless you’ve already decided that’s what happening and you’re working backwards), but like i said i respect that you’re going so hard on it, and i genuinely hope you’re right.
dont think anyone else has mentioned, but her telling Portia to leave the room before she asked a question about her marriage, like she’s embarrassed because its a delusion…
Good point. Portia’s response to the Greg reference in front of the Tarot Card woman is again ambiguous. Why would all this be written in if Greg is just another normal character? At least it makes Tanya’s presence in this thing a little more interesting. And you know, it’s not like Greg is a world-traveling hedge fund manager who would have to link up in Italy between meetings. He’s a government bureaucrat with National Parks in Colorado, who doesn’t even make THAT much money if Tanya dumped him. Why would he be oddly coming and going solo across the globe like this, with no visible baggage to my recollection. Tanya just sees him FWIW and others might be going along to humor her and thus keep her business and money. Tanya specifically mentions working her way up the perk ladder with the Lotus chain of hotels.
We also heard Greg tell the driver to go to the airport in this week’s episode…
My wife and I went back and dissected each Tanya / Greg scene relative to him being a figment of her imagination and we came to this: there is a lot of unexplained weirdness to his interaction in the world, unlike any other character. He pretty much doesn’t interact out of scene with Tanya, but for the restaurant scene with the girl at the table which comes off pretty normal. All the other ones are a little-bit-to-completely-off in some fashion. I’m still thinking it’s a “Sixth Sense” cliche that’s being pretty sloppily rendered because a lot of their basic story just doesn’t make any sense and is completely boring if he just there and leaves for leaves for Denver. Portia even being there is a major point in its favor, BUT her early phone scene has her tell a friend “they” are fucking crazy – which is not a point it its favor. So in review of the episodes:
Upon Tanya’s arrival the manager announces he is already there ahead of her, but he isn’t in the scene. He MIGHT be in an urn (like Season 1).Portia says “they” are crazy in her phone call home.The staff KNOWS she is a case and they are not do certain things for Tanya – including specifically renting HER a Vespa, when it was specifically Greg who was supposed to be renting it for them from their breakfast scene. He is not handed a helmet by anyone – he’s just messing with the Vespa. He interacts for pictures with the manager by exchanging a camera, but they do not speak independently, which is generally how he exists in this thing. He’s strangely detached or absent when Tanya awakens and his pillows don’t look look slept in. Their sex scene is bizarre and he never finishes. His “conversation” with the maître de is weirdly out of frame until Tanya returns to it, but his interaction with the waitress is normal. Maybe the hotel staff knows to humor her insanity, but a random restaurant should not be wise to that. Their resultant screaming match at the table doesn’t seem to register with anyone in the restaurant – and Tanya leaves the scene alone.He and Portia never directly speak and scenes of her nodding to him are vague and ambiguous as to whether she is actually interacting with him or Tanya.
I don’t think it’s a good storyline, but the various unique weirdness about Greg doesn’t make much other sense either in narrative or editing. But, they have admittedly included a scene or two that legitimately refute the concept unless White just didn’t care. He’s not the most worried writer in terms of plot holes, and it’s just one of several plotlines to flesh out, so we’ll see where they go with this.
Thank you for your research! I feel like I just received a Private Investigator’s stake-out file 😀
Agree with the Valentina points – although we know Greg had a terminal disease in season one
Valentina took pictures of him, and he drove a Vespa…and he entered the restaurant where he was seen by Portia. He exists.
The scene with Harper standing there alone surrounded by leering men was terrifying.And the way Daphne just strolled through that crowd, a big wad of ATM cash in hand, like it was nothing, was interesting. I asked myself, is it just because she’s just used to dudes gawking at her? Or she knows as an attractive white female tourist she just needs to whisper discomfort and someone will come running to help? Or maybe both?
There is a famous Italian photograph (staged, for all I know), of a young woman, possibly a tourist, beautifully dressed with lovely shoes and a shawl, looking very distressed as she is trying to walk down the street with a crowd of men ogling her.
Interestingly, the woman in the photograph “An American Girl in Italy,” claims that she found the experience empowering, and she wasn’t at all distressed.https://www.messynessychic.com/2013/04/19/american-girl-in-italy-behind-the-iconic-photo/
her face tells another story
That’s an homage to a scene in a Monica Vitti movie. Even filmed at the same location.
I’m pretty sure that scene was intended to be an exaggeration of Harper’s POV. As soon as Daphne appeared there were Italian women around again. The editing was excellent.
No discussion of how delightful meta “The Godfather” discussion was with Michael Imperioli who most famously played the type of character being discussed? It sure seemed like when Mike White wrote that scene he knew that he had to cast someone famous for playing a mobster.And no discussion of how Cameron was all over Ethan?
If it was Chrissy and Paulie sitting across from Alfie and Portia:Paulie: “Oh! What the f*#$* is the patriarchy? I dunno. Sound like anti-Italian slander, ya ask me.”Chris: “Hang on – Alfie’s got a point. I mean Godfather is a great f*#*% movie, but it’s not perfect. When I made ‘Cleaver’? I learned how tough it is to get ideas from the page onto the screen.”
Is anybody else noticing all the kisses Cameron is planting on Ethan?
He’s domming Ethan but not in a romantic sense.
YES. Came here to see if someone else was gonna bring it up.
No idea what will come of it, but it was too deliberate to not be a choice.
I sure noticed! I think we may be missing the elephant in the room about who might end up in flagrante delicto with who this season lol.
I’ve been waiting for them to get it on since we were told they were roommates in college [maybe the jetskis were a metaphor – like an old timey train going into a tunnel].
Oh my God, they were roommates.
Their scenes this episode were really homoerotic for sure. I was thinking at first that Daphne had some knowledge of them being lovers in college, and wanted to stay the night at Noto as a subtle way to give them their time alone…they went the other direction, but there’s still time!
What is it about Portia that gets every guy she glances at instantly attracted to her? I don’t get it, it’s infuriating.
I’m a guy and it would work for me.Another Portia note: When she was complaining about her life to Albie her speech patterns, pauses and tone were just like Tonya. It had to have been intentional.
I guess that I can realistically understand that she is a young, thin, blonde white woman and that’s enough reason right there for it to be fairly believable. But personally, yeah, I’m not seeing it. Her hair is awful and she dresses like a slouchy toddler. And that’s not even talking about her personality, which just overall sucks. It’s straining my suspension of disbelief as well. (No offense to the actress playing her, of course.)
Tonya is being underused for sure this season, but I have to say she is a great example of a deeply toxic individual posing as the victim. She uses her neediness and victimhood to control everyone around her, but honestly that thread was already pulled in season 1. Not much new to say. But I do like how she’s suddenly astute as when she perfectly nails that Greg, now that he’s healed (we finally got clarity on that!), is dreading spending his now elongated life with her. (He’s a lead candidate for the corpse in my book; saved only to die.)
The Harper-Daphne side trip confirmed for me that these 2 couples remain the most interesting part of the show (the episode even opens with Ethan running alone, a la Daphne’s elephant metaphor). I do actually agree that Cameron, while douchey, doesn’t quite seem like a full-on psychopath, but there’s always time to change that.That leaves Albie and Ethan. They both feel like time bombs. Just as Dominic pretends he isn’t just like Bert, I wonder if Albie doth protest too much. Especially when he inevitably finds out Portia is drawn to this mysterious man in the pool. We might finally see the real Albie. Ethan was at least smart enough to clock that Cameron is trying to use him, but he’s still so bottled up. Sure, he waved off Mia, but something seems to be unlocking in him.
Tonya is not being underused. She shouldn’t even be here. They could stand to use her less.
That is the alternative — just wiping the slate clean. And, given this storyline, I’d be just fine with it. Honestly, I wish Belinda had been the carryover cast member. She had more story to tell, plus it would make sense that employees might transfer among various of the chain’s locations.
Surprised to see no one mentioning this: I think Ethan blacked out and lost time. He was in the pool, the camera fades to black, then he’s in his room with the others banging at the door. I think that time jump make be hiding something important.
Maybe, but he rejects the other girl in the room and it kind of played off like they hadn’t had sex.
He does seem increasingly disoriented during those scenes.
The thing I found a little weird is that Cameron and Daphne seem exactly like the kind of couple who would be willing to have an open marriage, instead of deceitful cheating taken as a fact of marriage.
Speaking of costume dept, I loved the subtle difference in the couple’s clothing during breakfast: All of them, except for Harper, were wearing floral / loud prints, whereas Harper was the only one in solid color. Another way she sticks out from them.
Harper surrounded by horny Italian men was the best moment of this episode. It was creepy but good.Second best moment was the brief scene of Valentina having lunch by herself and two kittens. We need an entire episode about her.
How about Coolidge mouthing “gypsy” when she was told you aren’t supposed to say that anymore?! I was HOWLING!
Just wanted to point out that I believe the closed captions guy got it wrong with “nostalgic for the solid days of the patriarchy.” It’s far more likely to be “salad days.”